Loaded Orygun

Two of my favorite bloggers, Carla of Preemptive Karma and TJ of Also Also, have joined forces on a new Oregon-focused political blog: Loaded Orygun.

Despite being out-of-staters, Carla and TJ became lynchpins of the progressive blogosphere’s response to Dino Rossi’s ill-fated, ill-intentioned election contest, joining me in refuting the many lies, errors, and deceitful “analyses” coming from the conspiracy theorists over at (un)Sound Politics. Carla made an impact early, dismantling the GOP/BIAW claim that overseas military personnel were disenfranchised. (In fact, they voted at higher rates in King County than regular absentee voters.) And both played a crucial role in picking apart our friend Stefan’s faulty thesis on reconciliation discrepancies.

While HA may have garnered much of the attention, Carla and TJ did much of the hard work.

But more than just being smart, passionate, hardworking, advocacy journalists (yes, that’s right… what they do really deserves to be called journalism,) they are also kindred spirits. Um… to me. In fact Carla and I got along so well at the recent NW progressive blogger conference, that they had to separate us to keep us from disrupting the rest of the class.

I’m usually pretty damn slow adding new blogs to my blogroll, but Loaded Orygun deserves instant recognition. If you want smart, entertaining, informative coverage of Oregon politics, that’s a good place to start.

As noted on Loaded Orygun, the Portland Chapter of Drinking Liberally meets tonight, 7pm, at The Lucky Lab brew pub, SE Hawthorne in Portland.


  1. 2

    BOB from BOEING spews:


  2. 3

    Richard Pope spews:

    Don’t get carried away, Bob. Here is an irreverent thought of mine:

    Anyone with five dollars can file an initiative or referendum proposal. Initiative proposals do not get numbers assigned right away. You have to wait until the code reviser reviews the initiative, proposes format corrections, and you have finalized your initiative language. Referendum proposals are assigned numbers right away. Nothing prohibits filing identical referendum proposals on the same bill. You can also file referendum proposals on parts of bills.

    Tim Eyman’s referendum proposal is for all of HB 2661 and has been given Referendum Number 63. Someone could go down to Sam Reed’s office with six referendum proposal forms, copies of six bills that have been signed into law (at least one of which is HB 2661), and $30. File the first five (doesn’t matter in what order), and they could be given Referendum Numbers 64, 65, 66, 67 and 68.

    Then you could file your own referendum on HB 2661 and be assigned the next Referendum Number after that … Just keep in mind that Tim Eyman frequently files initiative proposals, and then withdraws them, and files them again, simply to get assigned an Initiative Number that sounds good (like I-695, I-747, or I-900).

  3. 4

    Richard Pope spews:


    Ballot Title
    Initiative Measure No. 913 concerns revenues and fees for state and local governments. Filed 01/09/2006 (WITHDRAWN BY SPONSOR)

    Ballot Title
    Initiative Measure No. 914 concerns prohibiting discrimination and preferential treatment. Filed 01/09/2006

    Ballot Title
    Initiative Measure No. 915 concerns limiting motor vehicle charges. Filed 01/09/2006 (WITHDRAWN BY SPONSOR)

    Ballot Title (Initiative 916)
    Relating to transportation. Filed 01/09/2006 (WITHDRAWN BY SPONSOR)

    Ballot Title
    Initiative Measure No. 917 concerns limiting motor vehicle charges. Filed 01/09/2006

    Ballot Title
    Initiative Measure No. 918 concerns transportation. Filed 01/09/2006

    Ballot Title
    Initiative Measure No. 927 concerns prohibiting preferential treatment. Filed 01/18/2006 (WITHDRAWN BY SPONSOR)

    Initative Subject (Number Not Yet Assigned)
    Relating to motor vehicle charges. Filed 01/17/2006

    Initative Subject (Number Not Yet Assigned)
    Relating to transportation. Filed 01/17/2006

    Initative Subject (Number Not Yet Assigned)
    Relating to revenues and fees. Filed 01/19/2006

    Initative Subject (Number Not Yet Assigned)
    Relating to prohibiting preferential treatment. Filed 01/30/2006



    Assigned Number: 63
    Filed: 01/31/2006
    Subject Matter
    Relating to Engrossed Substitute House Bill 2661


  4. 5

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Fuck you trolls! Hey JCH what did you command … a rowboat??


  5. 8

    EXPERT from BOEING spews:

    Richard — we all cheer at pep rallies for Team 69, don”t we. Yes, but it might be trademarked in Texas.

    Sort of off point — says a lot for Texas law schools that they do not discerne the subtle difference between intra state and inter state — thus the local Aggie vs Hawks lawsuit which should have stated in federal court. All issues, clearly intra state commerce – ie. Federal.

  6. 9

    momus spews:

    Windie, I’ve noticed that Bunny Boy has a way of digging himself into holes where he uses a term that, well, does not work, and you come and attempt to rescue him.

    Are you and Bunny Boy one in the same?

    As to the term and it’s use. Tree frog farmer was trying to make it sound like had had prior service and in his choice of words, it proved he did not know what he was talking about.

    Bunny Boy chimed in and got slapped down and now you are attempting to add your two cents, and you are also sounding like a moron.

    Now, go do a search for ships wheel on goodle, yahoo, dogpile, whatever….

    What you will not find are pictures of props, you’ll find,.. ships wheels = Helms

  7. 10

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Kevin Carns @111

    “If it’s a propellor, what is a wheelhouse?”

    I have no idea what a “propellor” is, although I know what a “propeller” is, but why are we now talking about a “wheelhouse”? We’re arguing about what a “wheel” is, not what a “wheelhouse” is. Just like a Republican — loses argument, changes subject.

    But, since you asked, the “wheelhouse” is where the “helm” is.

    “Now go ask a 100 sailors your screw, wheel question. I am certain, 100 of them will say … ‘Bunny Boy, You are an idiot.'”

    Oh, they elected YOU to speak for them? Yes, I’m sure you are “certain” of a lot of things, MPA. Certainty of belief is a hallmark of ignorance — and a common personality flaw of wingnuts.

    “On a quick note, I know there are former swabbies on this board, you guys wanna chime in on this?”

    Pompous Assus is calling for reinforcements!!! Can’t handle a 10 3/8-lb. rabbit by himself!!!


  8. 11

    EXPERT from BOEING spews:

    FROM THE SEATTLE TIMES – TODAY – RIGHT ON, THREE CHEERS ( Written by a Blethen, the Family which owns same)

    The generational disconnect on homosexual rights

    Leaders of the fight against civil rights need to give up their crusade. Their notions of sin and sexuality belong in another era, to decades past when women could not vote, black people drank from designated fountains and gays and lesbians were beaten into false lives.

    This generational disconnect was on full display the past couple of weeks as gray-haired legislators and salt-and-pepper-bearded pastors tried to deny a law that granted gays and lesbians the rights heterosexuals and minorities have long enjoyed.

    It was significant that the civil-rights law passed largely because of a Gen-X Republican’s vote. Sen. Bill Finkbeiner, R-Kirkland, was quoted from the Senate floor in The Seattle Times as saying, “We don’t choose who we love. The heart chooses who we love. I don’t believe it’s right for us to say … it’s acceptable to discriminate against people because of that. I cannot stand with that argument.”

    The future of civil rights lies with Finkbeiner and other Gen-X and -Y politicians not yet elected. It will be important for this cohort to be active between now and November. That is when a misguided Tim Eyman referendum or initiative to undo what was done in Olympia could be on the ballot. No doubt the Eyman campaign will be loudly backed by the familiar faces of opposition, who will trot out the same tired reasons, too numerous and faulty to list here, to gain signatures.

    One of the reasons used to try to tank any civil rights aimed at gays and lesbians is the claim that those rights will lead to same-sex marriage. On this point, the opposition is correct. Thank goodness. (Before moving on, let’s drop the labels. The weddings I attend this summer will not be called “heterosexual” weddings and the people involved will not be in “hetero-marriages.” So let’s not label marriage as gay. Call it what it is: marriage).

    Now that gays and lesbians have legal safeguards that grant them the same rights as the rest of us, it only makes sense that our state give all its adult citizens the right to marry. To not address this inequity would be wrong and perpetuate dated discrimination. Adding momentum to the debate is an expected ruling by the state Supreme Court on marriage.

    What the defenders of virtue do not understand is the role marriage has played in the lives of younger generations. The “sanctity of marriage” has become a meaningless slogan when used to perpetuate morals in an age of divorce. We either grew up in a divorced family or had numerous friends whose parents’ marriage habits were like those of dating, middle-school kids. Gays and lesbians certainly could do no worse.

    Is the institution of marriage really going to suffer if gays and lesbians are allowed to make the decision to marry? Not a chance. Religious institutions, including the Roman Catholic Church, would not have to condone state-sanctioned marriage.

    Not much has changed in heavily Catholic Massachusetts, where marriage was made legal for all by that state’s Supreme Court in 2003. According to the National Vital Statistics Reports put out by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, between the months of January and May in Massachusetts there were 6,753 divorces in 2003, 5,984 in 2004 and 5,137 in 2005. Marriages increased by about 1,000 during the same three years.

    So what exactly is the threat? Seems to me the real threat to family is teaching intolerance. We are in an era of unrivaled global interaction that begs for understanding. If American children are taught that their friends and neighbors are a threat to the fiber of family, they cannot be expected to make the leap of comprehension needed to be a world citizen.

    The disconnect is not excusable. What the gray-beards must realize is that my generation sees co-workers and friends in same-sex relationships. We watch sitcoms and movies with gay characters. We read novels where lesbians grace the pages. I was shocked by my first compact disc, not my first gay bar.

    The elders need only to flip the issue and consider the future, a future of equality beyond them, but in the grasp of their children.

    Ryan Blethen’s column appears regularly on editorial pages of The Times. His e-mail address is rblethen@seattletimes.com

  9. 13

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 138

    “the prop is most commonly referred to as the screw.”

    I know that — everybody knows that — at least, I think everybody knows that. Certainly, the term “ship’s screw” is used far more commonly than the term “ship’s wheel.” But that begs the issue.

    Another poster (I now forget which one) used the term “wheel” in a context that clearly meant propeller. A troll called him on it. The original poster was right and the troll was wrong — the term “wheel” is, in fact, a term that has been used to refer to the propeller, albeit less often than the term “screw.” A linked to an official U.S. Navy web site to prove it. The trolls are trying to call me for saying a propeller is sometimes called a “wheel.” I’m right, they’re wrong.

    As so often happens in the English language, many words are used to describe the same thing. Propeller = prop = screw = wheel = what all else I can’t say.

  10. 16

    marks spews:


    You can thank that idiot RR for it. RR would have been the dope we put on the “wheel watch.”

    “It is real simple,” he’d be told. “The ship needs wheels for when it goes into dry-dock. Since they are not used at any other time, we need to keep an eye on them to make sure they are okay.”

    Naturally, RR would be skeptical. He’d be bending over the side looking for the submerged wheels, craning his neck and “screwing” his eyes to get a glimpse of the wheels.

    That is when, since his backside is such an inviting target, he gets kicked in the ass.

    And RR, having spent 11+ years in the Navy, I have never heard the prop called a “wheel” and I am surprised that you would demonstrate your ignorance so thoroughly. The main terminology was screw, though prop was also used as noted by folks a bit more credible than your landlubbing, sorry M-16 wielding ass.
    BTW-In the Navy, we had M-14’s. Not a better weapon out there, IMHO…

  11. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    I hardly need rescuing, Pompous. You’re the idiot who used an Australian naval dictionary to support your weak argument. I got mine from an AMERICAN naval dictionary! Fucking unpatriotic foreigner!!!

  12. 19

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Did you join the Aussie navy to get Aussie citizenship so you could drink that crappy Aussie beer?

  13. 20

    momus spews:

    So Bunny…

    I’m curious, you mentioned that your daughter had a close call with a serial killer.

    She was one of the prostitues that got away from gary ridgeway, wasn’t she?

    Good job of parenting….

  14. 21

    momus spews:

    So, the question is Bunny…
    Those hundreds sailors, would they call your daughter a screw or a wheel?

  15. 24

    momus http://www.betablog.com/img/pimp.jpg spews:

    BTW rabbit, you said you wanted to see a picture of me.

  16. 25

    windie spews:

    momus… you stole your comment @118 from something I said in the open thread. At least have the good taste to wait a few days before doing your normal theft of debate tactics.

    Its only common courtesy

  17. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Our troll friends often deplore the “special treatment” gays and other minorities receive under hate-crime legislation. Well, here’s an example from today’s news of the “special treatment” that bigots like to mete out to gays:

    “Police Search for Teen Suspected in Gay Bar Attack

    “NEW BEDFORD, Mass. (Feb. 3) – A young man dressed all in black went on a rampage at a gay bar with a hatchet and a gun Thursday, wounding three patrons in what police said appeared to be a hate crime. One victim was in critical condition.

    “Police searched for 18-year-old Jacob D. Robida, who was wanted on charges of attempted murder, assault and civil-rights violations. According to court papers, … [i]n Robida’s bedroom, officers found Nazi regalia and anti-Semitic writings on the wall.

    “A bartender said … a teen wearing a black hooded sweatshirt and black pants walked into … a gay nightspot … asked if the place was a gay bar and was told it was … walked back to where two men were playing pool … shoved one of them to the ground, then pulled a hatchet from his sweatshirt and began swinging at the man’s head … pulled a gun, shot a man, and then fired another bullet into the chest of a patron who was leaving the bathroom … then ran off into the night.

    “All three victims remained hospitalized. Police said one was in critical condition ….”

    For complete story, see http://articles.news.aol.com/n.....38;cid=842

  18. 29

    JCH spews:

    138, GBS, You are what we called a “shore duty puke”. Two years at sea in eight? Please!!

  19. 30

    JCH spews:

    Neither you nor any of your sailor buddies would get the time of day from my daughter. You’re not good enough for her. She has an IT degree, is employed as an IT consultant, and her significant other is an executive for a major corporation.

    Comment by Roger Rabbit — 2/3/06 @ 4:08 pm [RR, Does her husband know about the incest? Does he care?]

  20. 31

    JCH spews:

    158, RR, Really not your best day. Still, marks continues to go down on you [see 160]. Very sad.

  21. 32

    JCH spews:

    Hey, anybody have any spare batteries for the sound powered phones?

    JCH, go down to supply and see if they have any. Oh, and we’re working on pump for the fire main and we need a punch to drive out a woodruff key. Go down the pipe fitters shop and ask for an HT punch.

    GBS [GBS, Four years at sea, 3 WESTPACs, 1 IO, and two year SurfaceWarfare Officer School, Coronado, Ca. Please, stop it!! You’re killing me!! ROTFLMAO!]

  22. 33

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Kevin Carns @124

    “RR, Really not a good day for you. Othert posters are still making fun of you! Comment by JCH— 2/3/06 @ 12:05 pm”

    Kevin — Au contraire, any day I draw fire from you, Momus Pompous Assus, or one of your other identities is a good day for me!!!


  23. 34

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Stay focused, people. The debate is whether the word “wheel” is used to refer to a ship’s propeller. The fact other words are used to refer to the propeller does not answer that question, therefore is irrelevant. I cited an official source that sanctions the use of the word “wheel” to describe the propeller on a Navy ship. I win.

  24. 35

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Anyone with an ounce of intelligence reading the original poster would have understood from the context that the original poster was not referring to the ship’s wheel (helm), a car wheel, a turning maneuver (e.g., the horse wheeled to the right), or any of the other manifold meanings of the word “wheel.”

  25. 36

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    GOP congressman turned back an attempt by Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri to succeed his buddy, Tom DeLay, as House Majority Leader by electing Rep. John Boehner of Ohio, who campaigned on a “reform” platform.

    Democratics, yawning, said it’s just same-old, same-old.

    Associated Press says: “As majority leader, Boehner’s first challenge will be to work with pSpeaker] Hastert and the [GOP] rank and file to find consensus on legislation designed to curtail the influence of lobbyists in Congress.”

    Um … I have a suggestion … for starters, how about replacing Doc Hastings, Inert Matter from Washington, as chair of the House ethics committee?

  26. 37

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    In other news, I see the House passed $39 billion of cuts in medical care for the poor, student loans, and child support enforcement as “deficit reduction.” Next, they plan to pass $70 billion of tax cuts for the rich. According to my calculator, this will, uh, INCREASE the deficit by $31 billion.

    And that’s before you figure in the $120 billion they want to spend on their wars in 2007, and the 5% increase in the Pentagon budget that Bush wants for weapons. At this rate, America will soon be the world’s best-defended Third World country.

  27. 38

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Did she chop him up into little pieces and feed him to the fishes???

  28. 40

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Of course, anytime something requires intelligence, that leaves out the trolls.

  29. 41

    Richard Pope spews:

    The big problem with HB 2661 is that it protects “gender expression or behavior”, in addition to “sexual orientation”. And “gender expression or behavior” is extremely broadly defined.

    One consequence of similar language in local ordinances (i.e. Seattle, Tacoma, King County, Pierce County) is that employers are reluctant to do anything about dangerous employees with alarming problems in their personal lifes. If you take action against an employers because of problems with their spouse or domestic partner, there is fear that this can be viewed as discrimination based on “gender behavior”. Hence, Tacoma taxpayers are facing seven figures of damages because of David Brame and King County taxpayers are facing seven figures of damages because of Ferenc Zana.

    “Gender expression” is also a very big loophole. Employers and schools would have to tolerate blatant and offensive cross-dressing by workers and employees — for example, a man would have to be allowed to wear a skirt to work, school, court or wherever. And the way HB 2661 is written — ANY FORM of “gender expression” would have to be tolerated. I.e. a girl could wear a bare midriff to school is she thought it was sexy, or a man could wear a tank top to work if he thought showing his biceps was macho.

    On the other hand, having Tim Eyman stand up for these principles is counterproductive. Eyman once stood for a coherent set of principles, but he is now an initiative whore who will sell his services to the highest bidder.

    Eyman is into the HB 2661 referendum solely for the money. If he doesn’t get enough money, then he won’t get the signatures needed for R-63 to qualify for the ballot. Plain and simple.

  30. 42

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “I do not approve at all with @121’s line of reasoning …”

    Giving credit where due — thank you.

  31. 43

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Viet Nam was no Disneyland.”

    Nope, it wasn’t. There was a Medal of Honor in my unit while I was there.

  32. 44

    marks spews:

    Dammit, Roger @148! You are infuriatingly lawyer-esque in your determined attempt at undermining my 11+ years of Naval service. The troll was the fool who called it a wheel in the first place. No self-respecting former member of the canoe club would ever call it a wheel in this current age of mankind.

  33. 45

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “15 rounds of 9mm lets you have the fear factor of simply shooting (or something like that).”

    At the risk of disclosing gunfighting secrets, a professional doesn’t fling ammo in the general direction of the target, because the chance of hitting it is functionally zero. A smart gunfighter doesn’t hurry, squeezes off aimed shots, and doesn’t waste ammo when he doesn’t have a target. If you can’t get the job done with the 6 rounds that fit in a .45’s magazine, then you have no business packing a gun. You’re supposed to drop the aggressor with the first two shots (i.e., the double-tap); if you can’t, hold you’re fire until you’ve got a shot. Let him fling his ammo at you; don’t worry, he isn’t gonna hit you.

    “GBS did not need to mention how much I consider your lifetime contribution to our nation. Indeed, you served both Vietnam and then came back for more by serving in our government as an employee.”

    I also served in the Army Reserve after Vietnam.

    “I hold both in high regard, and while you may not have been shot at in your state service”

    While this is, strictly speaking, true … I did, in the course of my state service, need police protection because of death threats against myself and my family members.

    “I’m certain it was as (or even more) thankless.”

    Public servants are almost universally unappreciated, and hardly ever thanked, and never by their superiors. The general quality of management in government service sucks, because the system promotes people for reasons other than management ability. And much of the public seems to think being a public employee gives them a license to abuse you. Don’t expect gratitude from the people you serve. You have to go into government with the attitude that you’re going to serve them anyway, and do it the best way you can, expecting no kudos in return. If you don’t approach it that way, you can’t stay mentally healthy.

    Anybody who ever served in the military probably can relate.

  34. 46

    marks spews:

    Next, RR will demonstrate his vast knowledge of aircraft by telling us the aileron is something used to measure wind speed.

  35. 50

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “So, the question is Bunny … Those hundreds sailors, would they call your daughter a screw or a wheel? Comment by momus— 2/3/06 @ 11:23 am”

    Neither you nor any of your sailor buddies would get the time of day from my daughter. You’re not good enough for her. She has an IT degree, is employed as an IT consultant, and her significant other is an executive for a major corporation.

  36. 53

    windie spews:

    now now, I think JCH is paid to disrupt threads… and his schtick is focusing the attention on himself.

    I mean a person can’t really be that big of a racist moron, can they?

  37. 54

    GBS spews:

    JC “I went to Penn State but got a lousy education” H @ 14:

    How many times to I have to tell you how to spell “Err?” It’s not ‘Er’ you fucking dolt.

  38. 55

    lapin spews:

    JCH, thanks showing the true face of the reich wing. Or maybe Afrikans would be a better word to describe your political philosophy. Go crawl back to you cave troglodyte.

  39. 56


    @ 12

    What I mean is journalists may be bloggers, but bloggers are not journalists. “Orcinus” is good, and their are others, but I think that most bloggers are activists (not interested is balanced coverage.)

  40. 57

    JCH spews:

    “Recent NW progressive blogger conference”…..Er, Goldy, Is this another name for the “Junior Socialist Hillary Village Conference”?

  41. 58

    JCH spews:

    If LA Times’ Joel Stein [burgLoebstein] [“I hate the troops”] and that black idiot at the NY Times [“Well, I’ll just make up stories because I’m black and anyone who has any questions are racists!”] are journalists, then Goldy can be one, too!

  42. 59

    windie spews:

    I’d say that the good bloggers straddle the line. They’re activists, and they promote their side, but also they can do real news stories and pursue them with integrity.

    Theres no reason you can’t do both.

  43. 62

    Richard Pope spews:

    “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” – Omar Ahmad, Co-Founder of the Council on Americain Islamic Relations (CAIR) (e.g. the fifth column)

    This is a true quote that can be reviewed here:


  44. 63

    Libertarian spews:

    No worries, windie! I’m off to “Taco Thursday” at The Beach Tavern in Tacoma later today. Good luck!

  45. 64

    windie spews:

    the THREADS are not journalism… some of the articles certainly are. If you’re truth centered, questions about your motivations are largely meaningless.

    Goldy, at least, is Truth-centered.

    PS: sorry for the implied insult lib. We don’t see eye to eye, but I shouldn’t go after you just ’cause I’ve been fighting the disruptive trolls on other threads.

    PS: I regularly read the other 2 (being an ex-Oregonian) So the new blog is on myo list too!

  46. 65

    Libertarian spews:


    The stuff Goldy and Stefan write as the intro to the particular thread borders on journalism at times. Some of the stories are reasonably well written by both gents, but a lot, and I mean a WHOLE LOT, is influenced by their belief sets.

    In my view, there is far too much propaganda being spewed by both Goldy and Stefan for us to mistake them for serious journalists. They’re both interesting characters, but I doubt either is a cum laude grad from any school of journalism.

    Finally, the threads that usually follow one of Goldy’s or Stefan’s pieces can’t be considered “journalism” by anyone. Those are just the ranting and ravings of the regulars, but they harm no one.

    That’s my take on both blogs. As far as Loaded Orygun is concerned, I never it existed until this afternoon.

  47. 66


    Carla’s spot-on. I know that in our organizational discussions, we agreed that we wanted to do for Oregon what Goldy’s done for Washington…minus the troll-coddling. :) So in a very real sense, LO is both a tribute to your efforts, and a part of your own legacy.

  48. 67


    Thanks for the mention, Goldy.

    BTW…you don’t give yourself enough journalistic credit. Despite the hollering from under their bridge by the trolls, you’ve been an invaluable news resource to the citizens of Washington State.

  49. 68

    headless lucy spews:

    I read Preemptive Karma on a regular basis and will definitely add Loaded Orygun to my reading list.

  50. 69

    windie spews:

    lib: In a classic case (2 actually)

    Was the Brownie/Arabian horse story journalism or opinion?

    Was the Irons ‘Mother beater’ story journalism or opinion?

    You not liking the investigative journalism they do doesn’t mean its not real.

  51. 70


    Windie–I think he was talking about Loaded Orygun, not HA. (Or maybe he was, but I’ll let Goldy defend himself).

    There have been no true journalism pieces at LO yet, but there are some in the works. I’ll have a two-part interview with the first-ever “clean money” candidate in Portland, and Carla is working on exposing our own little state version of Abramoffukah.

    I think our journalistic bonafides from Also Also and PK are fairly well established, so I’ll let that stand without further comment.

  52. 71

    Libertarian spews:

    Sorry Goldy, but the stuff here ain’t journalism and never will be. All that’s contained here in this blog is the opinions of the writers.

  53. 73

    GBS spews:

    JC “I got a lousy education at Penn State”H:

    Good advice, why don’t you follow it.

    BTW, mind your own business.


  54. 74

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    marks @129

    “You can thank that idiot RR for it.”

    Why are you blaming this shit on me? I’m not the idiot who didn’t know a “wheel” is a propeller.

  55. 75

    GBS spews:

    Roger Rabbit:

    I spent just over 10 years in the US Navy, although I must confess I only spent a couple of years stationed on ships. During my time in the surface fleet worked in the engineering department down in the “hole.” We operated the diesel engines that turned the reduction gears, that in turn, turned the “screws.”

    Sorry dude, you know I still have your back, but the prop is most commonly referred to as the screw.

    One thing about us liberals is that we’re honest to a fault at times. In the end, though, that’s our strength and the reason we’ll win back control of congress this fall.

    That, above all else on this thread, is what’s most important.

    You still have hundred times the “stones” JCH will ever have. You’ve been in the shit in Nam, you know what combat sounds like, how it smells, how it feels, the adrenaline, the fear, even the taste. For those of us who’ve experienced a firefight, those elements are forever imprinted in our memories; you just never forget them.

    That’s something most men on this thread, especially JCH, have never experienced. Although, they talk a great talk, they’ve never walked the walk. Those are two very different things. I have more respect for you then JCH, even if you were Army!!


  56. 76

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Yes. JCH is a REAL credit to both Penn State and NavROTC. He fits right in. My Jr. High math teacher, Penn State, was a child molester. . .spent a great deal of time in the outback in the P.I., until Marcos, Marcos!, kicked him out. Mut’ve missed a payment. . . .
    As for ROTC. . .he reminds me of the idiot ‘Rotsey’ Ensign I watched run over and foul the ‘wheel’ of a DE with a $6,000 Sonar
    transponder. The ‘Old Man’ finally gave him the conn after a week of whining. . . . . .
    We broached to, and almost ran up on the breakwater before ‘Boats” took off his jumper and went over the side to free the wheel.
    Yeah, I served. And on real Navy vessels, one of which took incoming rounds in a real war.
    JCH you are a Moron, a racist pig, and a comic book sailor.

  57. 77

    marks spews:

    TFF @24

    Ensign I watched run over and foul the ‘wheel’ of a DE with a $6,000 Sonar

    Okay, I am a bit miffed that I have next to no idea what you are talking about. Having been one of two dedicated sonar techs on an Aircraft Carrier equipped with a Fathometer, I know the operational characteristics of sonar. Where I got lost was your “wheel” terminology…was that taught in Groton?

  58. 78

    JCH spews:

    24..Tree Farmer “E” Man, I think three days in the brig on bread and water might improve your attitude toward superior officers. JCH

  59. 79

    JCH spews:

    GBS, You seem to have “issues” that really can’t be addressed here. Perhaps some counseling could help your “attitude” issues?

  60. 80

    JCH spews:

    Marks, carriers have the ability to “share” sonar info with other assets through NTDS [data systems]. Tree Farmer has no “NTDS” experience, as his job was to say “Yes Sir” and stand a 4 hour watch as helm or lee helm [EOT commands]. He seems a little bitter.

  61. 81

    marks spews:

    JCH @wherever

    Thank you for being you. Your constant dedication towards all things non-specific (off-topic) and determination to make your DNA the dominant form (racist fuck-bag) leaves me yearning for the time when I was an E-5 on the Security Force carrying a government issue 45. Would I have used it? Hindsight sucks…

  62. 82

    Commander Ogg spews:

  63. 83

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Oh yeah, Mr. Goldstein calls his blog horse’s ass. Mr. Safire should have called what he wrote Horsesh*t.

  64. 84

    JCH spews:

    29, Marks, RE: .45, I still have mine, now with two clips of hollow points. GBS, You know what they say!! “In like a dime, out like a grapefruit!!” [It seems there was a lot less looting in New Orleans when store owners sat outside with Mossberg 12 gauges. It seemed that many young black looting Democrats were somewhat “discouraged” by this hateful racist show of force.]

  65. 85

    JCH spews:

    Tree Frog Farmer, How do you know your high school teacher was a perv? I mean, you sound like you really know! [hehe….Did he give you 8 inches of “Democrat anal Tookie Williams love” when you had you “private stidies”?]

  66. 86

    marks spews:


    I’ll not go too far into silly appeals (“You were the chosen one!” Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars III) or anything like that, but you certainly prove your ability to alienate any thinking adult.

    Why do I feel like Dr. Frankenstein trying to reign in his monster???

    How ’bout this JCH “I’m a dedicated lefty because of you?” See, Goldy? All it took was for you to set him free…I apologize for suggesting you keep him under wraps…

  67. 87

    marks spews:


    Can you tell me why your Officer of the Deck watch was so horrid? I mean, that poor midshipmen actually jumped off the 07 Deck. Was it something you said?

  68. 89

    JCH spews:

    Marke, I stood 4 years of “OOD” watches for 3 skippers on two different ships during 3 WESTPACs, and one “IO” cruise. Could you identify the watch in question? Does it matter? Do any Democrats who post on this board even have any military experience, or do they just “pretend”?

  69. 90

    JCH spews:

    Marks, I do remember I met your wife and daughter in Subic Bay years ago. I remember them by the “river”. Both seems to be quite “familiar” with many of the Marine and enlisted Navy men.

  70. 92

    JCH spews:

    Civil rights activist and NAACP Chairman Julian Bond delivered a blistering partisan speech at Fayetteville State University in North Carolina last night, equating the Republican Party with the Nazi Party and characterizing Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her predecessor, Colin Powell, as “tokens.”

    “The Republican Party would have the American flag and the swastika flying side by side,” he charged.

    Calling President Bush a liar, Bond told the audience at the historically black institution that this White House’s lies are more serious than the lies of his predecessor’s because Clinton’s lies didn’t kill people.

    “We now find ourselves refighting old battles we thought we had already won,” he said. “We have to fight discrimination whenever it raises its ugly head.”

    He referred to former Attorney General John Ashcroft as J. Edgar Ashcroft. He compared Bush’s judicial nominees to the Taliban.

    The talk so infuriated at least one black family in attendance among the 900 in the auditorium that they got up and walked out in protest.

    “He went on and on name calling,” said Lee Wilson. “I walked out in the middle of his speech with my wife and three kids”

    The harsh partisan rhetoric from Bond should not have surprised anyone who has followed him in recent years.

    In July 2001, Bond said, “[Bush] has selected nominees from the Taliban wing of American politics, appeased the wretched appetites of the extreme right wing, and chosen Cabinet officials whose devotion to the Confederacy is nearly canine in its uncritical affection.” [Donate to the NAALCP, A TAX EXEMPT institution! hehe]

  71. 93

    RUFUS spews:


    Comander Ogg- Clinton got away with it because look at who was attorney general at the time. Janet Reno couldn’t run a Kool-Aid stand let alone a Justice Department. She was mentally unstable and had serious health problems. She didn’t know what she was doing which made her a perfect fit for the Clinton adminstration.

  72. 94

    RUFUS spews:

    Tax Exempt status should be disallowed for liberal organizatons. There god is government and 9 time out of 10 they are just a political front anyway. Society can get by just fine without them anyway.

  73. 96

    marks spews:

    JCH @whatever,

    I just got some great news! Unfortunately it had nothing to do with your demise, but my grandbaby and her mother are coming to live with my wife and I while my son is over in Korea defending your sorry-ass form of free speech. Oh, and many other forms of free speech, not to mention freedom of asociation and other alien things according to you…

    Since you, JCH, happen to be my current project, I thought you might be happy to know it…umm, do you even have kids? For the love of God, and based on your previous, I hope not…

  74. 98

    K spews:

    And here’s another story about what’s most important to Republicans, protecting their friends’ profits:

    National Politics

    Yet another Republican congressional scandal? U.S. Rep. Brian Baird, D-Vancouver, claims that House and Senate staffers–mostly GOP—are slipping “political intelligence” (an oxymoron?) to Wall Street investors, including wisdom on the likelihood of legislation passing or failing. “That sounds pretty darn close to insider trading,” says Baird. He’s appeared on Air America radio, CNBC, and MSNBC to push for a House ethics probe. Baird also says he alerted a BusinessWeek writer, who later reported that investors profited in advance of an asbestos liability speech by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. Baird has so far failed to get fellow state congress member and House ethics chair Doc Hastings, R-Pasco, to act. The ethics office has been mostly stuck in neutral since Hastings’ appointment last year, idled in part by his links to embattled Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, and corrupt former Preston Gates Ellis superlobbyist Jack Abramoff. (Hastings was finally planning an ethics briefing this week for House members and staffers on gifts, travel, jobs, and campaigning.) Baird says he’ll introduce legislation to regulate political intelligence giving. RICK ANDERSON

  75. 99

    marks spews:

    BTW RR,

    I do not approve at all with @121’s line of reasoning (or is it un-reasoning?). I remember your problem with the skinhead. Any sane person would have dealt with it the same way…

  76. 100

    marks spews:


    You are indeed the honorable veteran I knew you were. Just for the record, I agree with what you wrote @138, especially about JCH.

  77. 101

    Commander Ogg spews:

  78. 102

    JCH spews:

    Pop Quiz Roger: What does everything in my name stand for? This should be so easy.

    Comment by STG2 (SW) USS Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) — 2/3/06 @ 12:03 am [STG2, [E5], The Arleigh Burke wasn’t even thought of in 1984!! Brand new DDGs were the DD 963 class. As for STG, I think gunner’s mate or steam turbine [GE engines [LM2500s I believe], but I was on diesel, [low tech] “Gator Freighters”. I never came close to the tin cans. My ships: [USS Tuscaloosa, USS Barbour County]. Brand new Belleau Wood was our flag. She is now decommissioned and dry docked in Pearl. Hell, both my ships are decommissioned. Anyway, RR is a “poser”. Thanks, JCH

  79. 103

    Dr. E spews:

    Jesus. How many more crimes and lies have to come to light before the wingnuts in this country wake up and push to impeach this fascist?

    Blair-Bush deal before Iraq war revealed in secret memo

    “The disclosures come in a new edition of Lawless World, by Phillipe Sands, a QC and professor of international law at University College, London. Professor Sands last year exposed the doubts shared by Foreign Office lawyers about the legality of the invasion in disclosures which eventually forced the prime minister to publish the full legal advice given to him by the attorney general, Lord Goldsmith.

    “The memo seen by Prof Sands reveals:

    “· Mr Bush told Mr Blair that the US was so worried about the failure to find hard evidence against Saddam that it thought of “flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft planes with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours”. Mr Bush added: “If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach [of UN resolutions]”.

    “· Mr Bush even expressed the hope that a defector would be extracted from Iraq and give a “public presentation about Saddam’s WMD”. He is also said to have referred Mr Blair to a “small possibility” that Saddam would be “assassinated”.

    “· Mr Blair told the US president that a second UN resolution would be an “insurance policy”, providing “international cover, including with the Arabs” if anything went wrong with the military campaign, or if Saddam increased the stakes by burning oil wells, killing children, or fomenting internal divisions within Iraq.

    “· Mr Bush told the prime minister that he “thought it unlikely that there would be internecine warfare between the different religious and ethnic groups”. Mr Blair did not demur, according to the book.”

  80. 105

    windie spews:

    we know you can google information, JCH… Now come out of the basement. The dark is bad for your complexion.

  81. 106

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Richard, you are an idiot! How did you EVER pass a bar exam? David Braeme was the fucking police chief, and the Tacoma Fucking Police Department refused to respond to Mrs. Braeme’s 9-1-1 calls! You make it sound like Mrs. Braeme was the spouse with a problem! Why shouldn’t a police department be held liable when its chief uses his official position to keep police from intervening so he can commit domestic violence at will?

    As for Deputy Fucking Idiot Zana, if you’re driving your employer’s truck and you run over a kid, your employer is liable. How is this hard to figure out? So, Richard, why would liability be different if you leave your employer’s gun lying on the kitchen table and somebody else picks it up and commits a crime with it? Are you saying that if a Seattle cop walked into a bar, had a few drinks, and walked out leaving his gun lying on the bar and some drunk picks it up and shoots a passerby with it, the passerby’s widow can’t sue the Seattle PD? You bet yer ass she can! God, if I ever need a lawyer, I ain’t gonna hire you!!!

    By the way, Richard, I voted for your opponent in the port commissioner race. I mention it to rub your face in it.

  82. 107

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Roger, What’s your SPN code on your DD-214? Comment by Sigmund Freud— 2/3/06 @ 8:16 am”

    I don’t remember and I’m not gonna dig it out just to answer your question, but my DD-214 has the standard “spin” code you get for honorable discharge, eligible for re-enlistment.

  83. 108

    Momus spews:

    “Hell, I was Army, and even I know the “wheel” is the propeller.”

    Dumb as, the wheel is the helm… It is the tiller that controls the rudder.

    Guess there was a reason why you were an enlisted puke whose only responsibilty was to eat C-rats, smoke dope and generally be a waste of space.

    Follow me RR, “SIR, Yes, Sir”

    That is the sum total of your military carrer. There was a reason why you were not paid to think.

  84. 109

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Ogg, I missed that, it’s hilarious!!! The DeLay faction must have hired Rossi’s lawyers to count the votes, but they still came up short because their lawyers ran out of fingers after the first 10 votes were counted!!!

  85. 110

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Kevin Carns @86

    If there’s a point to that post, I don’t know what it is. I never posted anything about any of the ships you mention. All I said is you’re a fucking idiot because you don’t know a “wheel” is a propeller.

  86. 111

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Furthermore, if it was somebody else who didn’t know a “wheel” is a propeller, you’re a fucking idiot anyway!

  87. 112

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Actually, I should have said you’re an unfucking idiot, because I can’t imagine you getting laid.

  88. 113

    Momus spews:

    Nice Tirade RR, you should now go on about how even a grunt such as yourself knows that the bow is in the back of the boat……

  89. 114

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Well Richard, I think you can say the same thing about a lot of Christian sects — they want to be the dominant, if not the ONLY, religion. Your point is — ?

  90. 115

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    @40: Hey, ex lt. jch. If you are going to cut and paste, at least be civil enough to cite the source. Republicans and plagiarism–a match made in heaven.

  91. 116

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Kevin Carns @14

    “Recent NW progressive blogger conference”…..Er, Goldy, Is this another name for the ‘Junior Socialist Hillary Village Conference’?
    Comment by JCH— 2/2/06 @ 4:02 pm”

    Ya know, Kevin, I’ve never considered myself a socialist — hell, I spent $18,000 in the stock market today — but ya know what, I think I’d vote for confiscating YOUR property just to FUCK you over.

  92. 117

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 17

    If Washington legalizes gay marriage, JCH and Momus should get married. They deserve each other.

  93. 118

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 19

    “I think JCH is paid to disrupt threads… and his schtick is focusing the attention on himself … I mean a person can’t really be that big of a racist moron, can they?”

    Yes, I think someone can simultaneously be a racist moron and get paid to disrupt threads.

  94. 119

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 25

    “Where I got lost was your “wheel” terminology”

    You claim to have served in the US Navy and you don’t know what a “wheel” is?! Hell, I was Army, and even I know the “wheel” is the propeller.

  95. 120

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    What do you think moves an aircraft carrier, the captain standing on the bridge whistling dixie into a handkerchief?

  96. 122

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 26

    “24..Tree Farmer ‘E’ Man, I think three days in the brig on bread and water might improve your attitude toward superior officers. JCH”

    In Nam, if a sergeant threatened to send me to the brig, I replied, “When can I leave?”

    There are times in life when those in authority can do nothing to you, because anything they do will be an improvement over where you are and what you’re doing now.

    It was great because I not only didn’t salute officers, I told ‘em to fuck off or fight the war themselves, and there was nothing they could do about it.

  97. 123

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    Hey trolls, here’s one for the books (via talkingpointsmemo):

    No honor among vote scammers!

    This is actually kinda funny. Rich Lowry just filed this little squib at the Corner. “More ballots cast [on the House leadership vote] than there are members. Re-voting now….”

    Roll Call has it too: “House Republicans are taking a mulligan on the first ballot for Majority Leader. The first count showed more votes cast than Republicans present at the Conference meeting.”

    Says TPM Reader JP: “This is priceless. They try to steal their own elections!”

    TPM Reader JW is even more biting: “That’s right, the Repubs are so corrupt they can’t even hold an honest INTERNAL election…”

    TPM Reader JM has a constructive suggestion: “Shouldn’t Jimmy Carter have monitored the GOP vote?”

    — Josh Marshall

  98. 124

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 28

    “Marks, carriers have the ability to ‘share’ sonar info with other assets through NTDS [data systems]. Tree Farmer has no ‘NTDS’ experience, as his job was to say ‘Yes Sir’ and stand a 4 hour watch as helm or lee helm [EOT commands].”

    Let me guess, you don’t know what a “wheel” is, either. That’s the trouble with the modern Navy — it’s full of dickheads who talk a lot of electronics mumbo-jumbo but they don’t even know what the fucking propeller is called.

  99. 125

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Thank God nobody ever handed ‘em loaded M-16s! I sure wouldn’t want ‘em in MY foxhole.

  100. 126

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Idiot @32

    How many people have you shot with your .45, JCH? You remind me of an officer in my unit … the CO took the firing pin out of his .45 because he didn’t trust the guy with one that would work … !


  101. 127

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey JCH, you’re supposed to point the end with the hole in it at the bad guys … in case you didn’t know …


  102. 128


    Awesome! Apparently, I’ve been banned at uSP! It’s funny that trolls here try to say Goldy censors them, but apparently it’s Stefan who’s intolerant.

  103. 129

    windie spews:

    roger: Apparently you’re “mixing (m)Mark(s)(,,,) again.

    I think that one is on the side of the light.

  104. 130

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    Have you ever noticed that in photos Stefan’s eyes burn like the sun with paranoid intensity. You know you’ve hit a nerve when he bans you.

  105. 131


    Apparently he’s a little thin skinned. I once made a crack about him being Jewish, and he got all bent out of shape.

    You’re right about the eyes!

  106. 132

    JCH spews:

    Where I got lost was your ?wheel? terminology”

    You claim to have served in the US Navy and you don’t know what a “wheel” is?! Hell, I was Army, and even I know the “wheel” is the propeller.

    Comment by Roger Rabbit — 2/2/06 @ 9:42 pm [Errr, RR, Wrong again. The “wheel” is the helm. You are truely showing your ignorance.]

  107. 133

    Commander Ogg spews:

    RUFUS @ 31, it is dangerous to speak of things when you do not verify the facts.

    Janet Reno had nothing to do with all the bullsh*t investigations of Bad Bill Clinton. Kenneth “Porn” Starr (and five others) were independent prosecutor’s — distinct from the Attorney General of the United States Department of Justice — that provided reports to the Congress under Title 28 of the United States Code, Section 595

    Starr was appointed by a special panel of the Federal DC appeals court, could investigate allegations of any misconduct, with an unlimited budget and no deadline, and could be dismissed by only the Attorney General or a panel of three federal judges. And Janet Reno never, ever dismissed any of those incompetent, political bastards, even after Starr and his successor Ray wasted 73 million taxpayer dollars without indicting a single individual in Clintons Cabinet

  108. 134

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 121

    “She was one of the prostitues that got away from gary ridgeway, wasn’t she?”

    No. My daughter lives in another state, and this incident was a night time home invasion.

  109. 135

    marks spews:

    Hey GBS,

    Perhaps you can get RR’s head out of his ass. What terminology is used for a ships propeller(s)?

    RR also has difficulty sitting right now, since he couldn’t see the wheels…

  110. 136

    STG2 (SW) USS Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) spews:

    JCH: I noticed the same thing you did about the terminology.

    Roger is full of it. Everyone knows that is one of the aliases Goldy uses to start fireworks and piss people off. What I do know is more than one E-5 Sonar Tech got off the ship and started making $100K+, I don’t know to many Sgt. who crawled out of the foxholes to the same deal. The Army guys use to bust our chops because sailors only run 3 miles a year. So we always fired back that they only read 3 words a year. For the record, I love my BMW.

    But I don’t mind soldiers flipping me crap for being in the Navy. I’m going to give it right back, but it doesn’t mean I don’t respect them. It’s like that cousin you always have to smack around when you see him.

    Don’t worry about Roger Rabbit. He makes stuff up to feel special. If he was in the service, he sure doesn’t carry himself like it. Read his post. He lacks disipline, intergrity, and honor.

    So tell him to go “propeller” himself. However, Roger does make this place extremely entertaining.

    Pop Quiz Roger: What does everything in my name stand for? This should be so easy.

  111. 137

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “The troll was the fool who called it a wheel in the first place.”

    You mean all this time I’ve been defending a troll? Holy shit!!! Damn … what can I say.

  112. 138

    STG2 (SW) USS Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) spews:

    JCH and Marks;

    Please go at it about which sidearm is better, the .45 Colt or M-9 Barretta. I have not heard one of those debates in really long time.

    “Barretta is the biggest piece of S#!T ever made… My buddy in Panama shot a guy in the head from 2 inches a way 75 times and the guy laughed at him…”

    “Oh ya, I was stationed with a guy in Granada who took 15 shots at guy 5 feet away and missed all three times, .45 the biggest piece of S#!T ever made.”

    “No, other friend shot a guy with a .45 from 2 miles away, hit the guy in the wrist and his head exploded.”

    Well, my friend was able to shoot an entire tank division with 275 round in 3.4 seconds and single handedly stop a hostile enemy advance.”

    I really do miss the military.

  113. 140

    marks spews:

    @148 (cont)

    Which I might have believed to be the issue (that perhaps it was some sort of generational context), if it weren’t for the fact that my dad was in the Naval service before I was, and guess what? He called it a screw…

    Your (and the troll aforementioned) context of “wheels” was the first I ever heard of such…

  114. 141

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Well, it’s in the dictionary, so that makes it official. But I’m not in the business of defending trollfucks, so I retract everything I said in this thread about “wheel” meaning propeller. The trollfuck didn’t know what he was talking about. Everybody knows the propeller is a “screw.” So — SCREW HIM!!!!

  115. 142

    marks spews:

    Oh, Roger, I Love you (cue dramatic music)…

    I am kidding, but I do consider your comments heavily weighted toward worthwhile and thus gold. Keep ‘em coming, and if I happen to disagee with you, consider it as you wish…but I find you more often than not a worthy read, especially when you have a lot to say…

  116. 143

    GBS spews:

    Marks @ 140:

    How about giving some, please excuse the pun, “props” to Roger Rabbit. Disagree with his politics, but he’s earned our respect. Viet Nam was no Disneyland.

  117. 144

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “BTW-In the Navy, we had M-14’s. Not a better weapon out there, IMHO…”

    Item #1 — It’s not my fault the Navy you served in doesn’t know that a propeller is a “wheel.” Talk to the chaplain about it, not me.

    Item #2 — Easy for you to say the M-14 is a better weapon — you have a ship to haul the ammo for you! But why anybody on a ship would use an M-14 is beyond me. Me, I’d let ‘em have a salvo from the ship’s guns. Why use a rifle when you can blow them off the face of the fucking earth? To each his own, I guess.

    Of course, I wouldn’t expect swabbies to understand why the Army replaced its M-14s with M-16s. After all, the M-14 is a reliable weapon, and everybody knows the M-16 is a piece of shit. I went through two of them in Nam, and neither one ever fired more than 30 rounds before jamming, even though I cleaned them diligently. And the M-16 is a bastard to clean.

    It’s because M-14 ammo is bulkier and heavier, and a grunt can carry less of it.

    You see, dummy, the M-14 is nothing more than a SEMI-AUTOMATIC version of the WW2-era M-1. Our army would have be at a serious disadvantage in a confrontation with Warsaw Pact troops or other adversaries equipped with automatic rifles like the AK-47.

    The technology for automatic rifles existed as early as World War 1. This weapon type saw very limited use in WW2 and Korea, the best known examples from that era being the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle), Thompson submachinegun, and M3 “grease gun.” The world’s armies didn’t switch to automatic assault rifles until much later because of the logistical difficulties of supplying combat units with the amount of ammunition these weapons burn. In Vietnam, the first conflict in which this weapon type was widely used, the U.S. deployed the M-16 in conjunction with helicopter resupply, while the opposing side deployed massive manpower resources to supply their field armies with ammunition via the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The North Vietnamese also used the AK-47 in conjunction with hit-and-run tactics. This is important from a logistical standpoint because, by engaging the Americans in brief firefights and then breaking contact, they were able to employ this weapon within the limitations imposed by their ammunition resupply capabilities.

    As a general rule of thumb, a soldier equipped with an M-16 can carry three times as much ammunition as a soldier equipped with an M-14. That, and the M-16’s rate of fire, is the reason why it replaced the M-14 as the standard issue weapon for the USMC and US Army. The M-16 is definitely inferior in terms of both reliability and knock-down power.

  118. 145

    GBS spews:

    Hey, anybody have any spare batteries for the sound powered phones?

    JCH, go down to supply and see if they have any. Oh, and we’re working on pump for the fire main and we need a punch to drive out a woodruff key. Go down the pipe fitters shop and ask for an HT punch.


  119. 146

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 130

    The M-249 is a lightweight squad machinegun that fires belted .223 ammo used by recon teams and other sub-platoon sized units. It does not replace the M-240, which since the 1980s has been the standard-issue SAW (squad automatic weapon), which like its Vietnam-era predecessor the M-60, fires the 7.62 NATO round, the same ammo used in the M-14.

  120. 147

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The M-249 is 12 lbs. lighter than the M-240, and the ammunition is lighter, making it suitable for use by light, fast, insertion teams. The M-240 is better for standard infantry operations because of its heavier hitting power.

  121. 148

    marks spews:

    Roger Rabbit @143

    That is the same issue regarding why the Navy went from .45 to 9mm. Sure, the .45 can stop a freight train with one shot at 75 yards (that would be considered hyperbole, in case you were thinking I’m serious), but 15 rounds of 9mm lets you have the fear factor of simply shooting (or something like that).

    GBS did not need to mention how much I consider your lifetime contribution to our nation. Indeed, you served both Vietnam and then came back for more by serving in our government as an employee. I hold both in high regard, and while you may not have been shot at in your state service, I’m certain it was as (or even more) thankless.

    Thank you Roger. May your evenings be full of she-bunnies…

  122. 152

    Momus spews:

    Bunny boy…

    Um, you might NOT want to try and attempt “slang” on a Navy Ship. Then again you may…

    Try going into a boiler room and asking for a BT Punch.

    Here ya go, shitbird…


    Helm- The machinery by which a vessel is steered, including the rudder, tiller, wheel, etc.. Applied more particularly, perhaps, to the tiller steering apparatus.

    Wheel: – device used for steering a boat.

    On another Note Bunny, I am reading and weeping… At your stupidity

  123. 153

    Richard Pope spews:

    Wabbit @ 92

    Who really cares? The way they did HB 2661, they didn’t want there to be any middle ground. If someone had stood up on principle and said that sexual orientation should be protected, but not “gender behavior” or “gender expression”, then maybe a bill would have been passed with more sensible language.

    In reality, the forces of the left have some strongly motivated constituents (i.e. their “base”), so it was important to their cheerleaders to include “gender expression” and “gender behavior”.

    And the forces on the right largely don’t want any “gay civil rights” bill of any sort, especially among their base. So no motivation to do anything to support the bill. And if they can keep some extreme language in there to turn off middle of the road voters, so much the better for doing a referendum battle.

    Anyway, do you think Tim Eyman is in this thing just for the money, and do you think he will simply punt the referendum if it serves his interests?

  124. 154

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Wheel: – device used for steering a boat.” http://www.geocities.com/cjste.....onary.html

    How the hell was I supposed to know you served in the Australian navy? I’m not a mind reader, you know. If you had said that in the first place, I could have told you the “wheel” is what Aussies steer the boat with. That would be obvious to anyone — down there, everything is upside down.

  125. 155

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Richard, if you’re really worried about the government restricting free speech, maybe you should post something about how nobody is allowed within 1 mile of the President of the United States unless he/she is a certified wingnut.

    Or how’s this for respecting free speech? http://talkleft.com/new_archives/007851.html

  126. 156

    Momus spews:

    keep talking jackass..

    You appear to be confusing a ships “screw” with it’s “wheel”.

    BTW, stop trying to make yourself sound like Auddie Murphy, I and every other Vet on this board am well aware of what scumbags can be found littering the service. You are just another enlisted nothing that took up space, never had pride, discipline or accountability, while those around them picked up your slack.

    Sadly, it’s scumbags like you who cause people to loose their lives.

    And before you go on your, what war, what service, BS line of questioning, don’t worry about my background, just concentrate on how you dishonor those that served with you.

  127. 160

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey dummy, we’re arguing about what a “wheel” is, not what a “screw” is! Just like a Republican — loses argument, changes subject.

  128. 161

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I’ll bet if you asked 100 sailors what a “screw” is, only 1 of them would say “propeller” and the other 99 would say, “what you get in a whorehouse.” They call it a “wheel” so idiots like you’ll go to the warehouse instead of the whorehouse when the engineer tells you to “go get a screw.” You wouldn’t know what a “wheel” is if one sucked your dick.

  129. 163

    momus spews:

    So, I’m curious…

    If it’s a propellor, what is a wheelhouse?

    Now go ask a 100 sailors your screw, wheel question.

    I am certain, 100 of them will say…

    “Bunny Boy, You are an idiot.”

    On a quick note, I know there are former swabbies on this board, you guys wanna chime in on this?

  130. 164

    momus spews:

    Bunny Boy…

    Here’s a quick lesson for you… Aussie = British

    British = foundation of all things nautical…..

  131. 166

    windie spews:

    the wheel can mean both you goofs… But momus: Do you really think he snared the tiller in a line? It doesn’t make freaking sense!

    on the other hand, in terms as a prop, it does.

    But wait, you’re a paid republican troll… so logic has nothing to do with it as long as you can increase the noise factor.

  132. 167

    GBS spews:

    JCH @ 32:

    .45, I still have mine, now with two clips of hollow points. GBS, You know what they say!! “In like a dime, out like a grapefruit!!””

    The Navy issued me an M-16/203. When I was close to getting out some of the guys in my squad were getting the new M-249. I didn’t get to keep my weapon. But, if push comes to shove, I’m pretty confident I’m a better shot than you are, JCH, any day of the week.

    I’d also bet I can improvise better than you, too.

    We had a saying: “It pays to be a winner.” And, “2nd place is first loser.”

    You are definitely 2nd place material.


  133. 168

    Jimmy spews:

    I skipped past the trolls Goldy to say… SWEET. Go Carla and TJ.

    Cheers from the the Big Mountain (where net access is suprisingly free!)