This is from Kemper Freeman Jr.’s goofball organization, who are lying their asses off in this obviously illegal campaign piece pamplet.
The real number? About 250 bucks a year, per household. To compare, it would take 376 years for this package to cost you anything near $94,000, and that’s total.
I’m no economist, but 250 is a lot less than 94,000.
D’oh, which roads and transit package is this?
Well, I have to side with the Sierra Club: I’ll vote no. It doesn’t include measures to reduce SOV use like congestion tolling via RFID chips, and I don’t like billions of Seattle tax dollars going to pay for new highway lanes in the I-405 corridor. Plus, it’d just be a downpayment – they’d come back right after the vote and bump up sales taxes even more to pay for repaving I-5 and the inevitable cost overruns on SR 520.
I like trains, but this measure doesn’t fully fund the road and bridge repairs we need. Let them decide on the basic plans for SR 520 and the SR 99 viaduct replacement or tunnel FIRST, then ask for the money.
Oh, and can’t they think of ANYTHING except sales taxes? Maybe nicking businesses a little wouldn’t be SUCH a bad thing . . ..
one things certain, if a liberal tells you it will only cost $250, you can be sure it wont. Im guessing the $94,000 is Conservative at best
To Freeman, if the cost was fifty cents it would still be too much. He can’t stand the thought of a single penney going anywhere except being spent in his shopping center.
@2
You are going to side with a bunch of calendar salesmen instead of the broader environmental community on this?
WCV, WEC, Transportation Choices and Futurewise are all on board with this.
You’re looking for a plan that is politically infeasible (voters will not vote for congestion pricing and having big brother implant an RFID chip in their car).
Let’s play in reality for a bit: we have sales taxes in this state. You’ll have a better shot at backing an income tax than congestion pricing.
Here’s my back-of-the-envelope calculation of what RTID/ST2 will cost:
1. State population = 6.2 million
2. 6.2 million x 52% = 3.2 million people living in King, Pierce, and Snohomish counties
3. Assume average household size is 2.5 people
4. 3.2 million / 2.5 = 1,280,000 households
5. $16.5 billion / 1.28 million = $12,890 per household
I’m a little fuzzy on the need for RTID,why can’t the state Leg. and the DOT do this? Why can’t we pay for out of the general fund?
I guess in the name of full disclosure I should point out that I live outside of RTID (Gig Harbor). So, I get to enjoy all the improvements that they make without paying for them, which is really sweet!
Thing is, RTID/ST2 provides only PARTIAL funding for the 520 bridge. And no one can seriously believe this is the last time Sound Transit will ask for money. So, if it passes, the pols WILL be back for more later.
In past comments on HA, I’ve said regional planners’ $100 billion transportation wish list would cost about $94,000 per household — therefore it’s obvious where Freeman got his figures: From Roger Rabbit!
As Paul Harvey would say, now you know the REST OF THE STORY.
@7
That should read why can’t we pay for it.
The brain is working even less well than normal today.
@5 – RFID chip tolling IS coming, without a vote. A federal grant to King Co. just was made, requiring it as part of transit upgrades relating to SR 520. There won’t be a public vote. My point is that the technology should be implemented at several points in addition to the SR 520 access ramps. And people WILL vote for greener taxing programs like that, not just sales taxes. All we need to do is have them on the ballot. You wouldn’t have any problem with a payroll tax on businesses, would you?
@ 6 – Businesses pay some sales taxes too, not just households! Still, the sales tax rate here is too high to begin with.
@9
Roger, I can’t keep up with your idiocy on the comment thread…I have a real job.
BUT, your numbers are wrong. Especially on 520. $1.1B is included in Roads & Transit. THere will also be state money and local money…and tolls.
To get to the $4B needed to replace the bridge that is going to sink.
If we paid for the entire $4B out of the RTID, then sub-area equity (money raised in a region goes to projects in the region) we wouldn’t be able to do multiple other projects.
Your math is shortsighted. Your comments are uninformed.
@ 5 – Something else: WCV supports anything with bonds. The chair is Marc Dauden and his wife Maud Dauden is with Pac. NW Securities – they’d make millions once RTID starts issuing bonds. TCC has some individual members, but basically it is a front for local governments and unions. They also are behind this thing simply because it generates mountains of taxes.
salut!
@11
Well, if the federal gov’t wants to pay for our light rail system it would be great…too bad we already had a shot at that 40 years ago.
Local electeds – in 3 counties – won’t be able to agree and get 50 miles of light rail on the ballot in the near future.
I’m with you on greener taxing systems…but we’ve got what we’ve got…and neigher the Sierra Club, nor Kemper Freeman has a plan to fix our problems.
The real Answer From a True Conservative:
“To conclude,” bin Laden says, “I invite you to embrace Islam.” He goes on to say: “There are no taxes in Islam, but rather there is a limited Zakaat [alms] totaling 2.5 percent.”
Osmar bin Laden
Freeman is sort of fibbing, and sort of not fibbing. Although RTID/ST2 won’t cost $94,000 per household, it opens the door for spending the rest, and yes, it does all add up to $94,000 per household.
The very disturbing thing about RTID/ST2 is that all the big spending is still there. This package makes NO COMPROMISES with frugality or good sense. The pols and bureaucrats didn’t back off an inch from demanding we pay for gold plating and Christmas tree ornaments.
If RTID/ST2 passes, it will be interpreted as a green light to push around taxpayers. Passage of RTID/ST2 will guarantee that the lobbies, bureaucrats, and free-spending pols will think they can get the whole $100 billion — $94,000 per household — from us. And they may be right. If RTID/ST2 passes, it may be impossible to stop the tax juggernaut.
After they rip out the 520 bridge, pour concrete for the new 6-lane bridge’s approaches, and then say “we need more money to finish the bridge,” how are you going to say no? and do you really believe that, when they come back with another tax increase for the rest of the 520 bridge, the bridge will be the only thing in the next tax package? If so, you’re dreaming. The people who make careers of extracting money from taxpayers play this game well. They will hold the bridge hostage for other stuff they want. So you will vote for another tax increase to make the down payments on that stuff. And then they will come back with yet another tax increase to finish THOSE projects, and add (sic) infinitum.
You’ve got to stop these things in the bud, or you can’t stop them at all. We know how much money the transportation dreamers want, because they’ve told us what that figure is. We know how much it will cost per household, because the math is simple. Freeman is wrong about a lot of things, but he’s right about this.
So, what should we do? We should defeat RTID/ST2 at the polls. Then we should tell the politicians and bureaucrats to sharpen their pencils and delete the gold plating and ornaments. Come back with a revised spending package that deletes the Cross-Base Highway and slims 520 down to four lanes, and while they’re at it, figure out a way to build a bunch of concrete pontoons for less than five times what it cost them to build a 4-lane suspension bridge two-thirds as long. I’ll bet they could do it if they tried. Tell them to put ALL the funding for 520 in a tax package costing considerably less than $16.5 billion. And maybe some of the ST parts of the package should be scrapped.
How these taxes will be distributed also needs to go back to the drawing board. There need to be more user fees and less general taxes. There needs to be more emphasis on ability to pay. People shouldn’t be taxed simply for owning cars. People who drive their cars 10 times as much as I do should pay 10 times as much tax. People who use 520 every day should pay more than people who never use 520.
And if they don’t get the message, then what? Do we cave in and let them lift our wallets? Hell no! Just say “no.” Tell them, either get reasonable, or get nothing.
That’s how I’m going to vote.
OK, here we have one of those rare occasions where the entire group, from the bona fide progressives to the wingnut trolls, agrees that our esteemed leadership is trying to foist something off on us that’s seriously flawed.
Where we differ is in (1.) what needs to be done instead; and (2.) how to persuade said leaders to do that instead of congratulating themselves for this mess.
For my part, by the time any of this happens I intend to have altered my employment situation so I’m no longer commuting across the Goddamned lake.
@15
Osmar bin Laden
Who’s that? His brother at the CATO Institute?
Don’t let anyone talk you into believing regional transportation is doomed unless you vote for this turkey. RTID/ST2 is merely the transportation lobby’s opening offer. Defeating it will force them to negotiate. Passing it will encourage the transportation interests to dun you like College Republicans dun senior citizens.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....bs28m.html
@15:
…and that’s why the infrastructure in Afghanistan is SO AWESOME.
heh.
-OM
@12 I never represented that all the money for 520 will come from RTID/ST2. It won’t. What I’m saying is that even with RTID/ST2 and all the other sources 520 is only partially funded. They DON’T KNOW where the rest of the money is coming from. Except that, one way or another, it’s coming from us. RTID/ST2 is analogous to selling you a $50,000 car for $25,000 and the salesman didn’t tell you that the option engine, optional transmission, and optional wheels will cost you another $25,000.
But the partial funding issue is only half the problem with 520. WHY DOES A CONCRETE PONTOON BRIDGE COST $550,000 PER LINEAL FOOT? Why can WSDOT build a mile-long suspension bridge in Tacoma for $843 million, but can’t build a mile-and-a-half-long CONCRETE PONTOON BRIDGE with no towers or cables for less than $4.5 billion? Something is seriously out of whack with the cost.
WSDOT does admit that expanding the 520 bridge to 6 lanes makes it much more expensive than a simple replacement of the existing 4-lane bridge. I say, if a 6-lane bridge costs that much, then the extra lanes are a luxury the region can’t afford. Instead of making all of us fork out that much money, get out of your car and ride a bus, or if you won’t do that, then live with the congestion. You can’t build your way out of congestion, anyway. If you build 6 lanes, drivers will fill them up, and you won’t get to Bellevue (or Seattle) any faster.
Who said anything about doing nothing about 520 until the old bridge sinks? Not me. If you think I said that, you’re the biggest idiot on this board! Either that, or you’ve never read any of the numerous comments I’ve posted on this topic. I’ve never opposed replacing the bridge. The only things I’ve done is oppose gold plating the project, question the outlandish cost figures, expose how they’re playing games with taxpayers, and demand a fair distribution of the necessary costs of replacing a bridge that everyone agrees must be replaced. You’ve totally misrepresented my position on this matter. Come back and editorialize after you learn basic reading comprehension.
@14 “I’m with you on greener taxing systems…but we’ve got what we’ve got…and neigher the Sierra Club, nor Kemper Freeman has a plan to fix our problems.”
And you think scheming to spend $100 billion of other people’s money on transportation is a “plan”?
I can’t emphasize enough what the true nature of RTID/ST2 is.
It’s NOT a self-contained, final, total solution to our region’s transportation needs.
The people pushing RTID/ST2 understand we won’t agree to pay for everything they want. So, to get $100 billion from us, they break it up into several chunks. RTID/ST2 is one of those chunks.
RTID/ST2 won’t be the end of the transportation taxes, it will be the beginning. I repeat, RTID/ST2 is only a down payment, just as the original Sound Transit tax was only a down payment. There are more taxes coming. And more taxes coming behind those taxes. RTID/ST2 is only 15% of the whole package. There are several more big pieces and big tax increases yet to come.
The ONLY way you’re going to avoid paying $94,000 per household for regional transportation is to force the transportation planners to scale down their aspirations. The only way you can do that is to defeat free-spending proposals at the polls, which will force them to negotiate a smaller, less expensive, long-term transportation plan for the region.
@15 Osama is a bullshitter (among other things). He can’t finance a shadow government and a shadow army with a 2.5% tax rate any more than we or anyone else can finance a real government and a real army with a 2.5% tax rate.
@ 23
Now you’re just making shit up.
@17 I may be forced to alter my living arrangement so that I’m no longer living in this tax-happy community. That’s what I’m worried about. I’ve lived in Seattle for 40 years and would like to die here.* But the cost of living may force me to leave Seattle. And the fastest-rising component of Seattle’s cost of living is municipal spending.
* This is only a theoretical concept, because the king of the rabbits is immortal.
SUV driving Larry Phillips (who thinks the buses are for “other people”) is supporting this package.
We need more roads so hypocrite Phillips can keep driving his SUV.
@25 No, I’m not, Will. The $100 billion ultimate price tag for regional transportation has been widely reported, and if you divide that figure by RTID/ST2’s $16.5 billion, you get roughly 15%.
@ 29
The $100 billion you cite is a wish list. It’s what they want if they had loads of money. It’s not “the other 85 percent.”
It’s not like WSDOT never heard of least-cost transportation planning. http://www.globaltelematics.com/lcp/nel6.htm
“A Cost-Effective Strategy for Puget Sound Transportation
“Summary
“One: Provide a high-capacity alternative to driving alone
–Complete a “seamless” regional HOV lane network
–Provide frequent express bus service utilizing the HOV lanes
“Two: Use incentives to convert commuters from SOV to HOV
–Expand Commute Trip Reduction Law to more work sites; offer employer tax credits
–‘Cash out’ employer subsidized parking
–Provide a guaranteed ride home to HOV commuters
–Improve the regional ridematching service
–Reduce the user cost of vanpooling to the equivalent of transit
“Three: Experiment with innovative ways to reduce vehicle use
–Site public offices and subsidized housing on transit routes and near employment
–Initiate a shared-ride parataxi system; demonstrate ‘instant ridesharing’
–Demonstrate intensive bicycle commuting
“Four: Broaden governance from transit to transportation
–Create a regional transportation agency that can plan and implement, together with other transportation entities, a diverse and integrated package of measures
–Benefits: Congestion relief, less environmental impact, more travel choices, and more dollars for local transportation problems”
http://www.globaltelematics.com/lcp/nel1.htm
Roger Rabbit Commentary: But this isn’t what some people want; they want their GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO DRIVE THEIR OWN CARS WHEREVER AND WHENEVER THEY DAMN WELL PLEASE. And they want other people to pay for it.
You can be certain that a large percentage of the people who vote for Sound Transit have no intention of riding on ST; they want other people to ride ST so they can drive their cars.
@30 And my point is they want us to pay for their wish list.
Where have they compromised, Will? Did they pare 520 back to 4 lanes? Did they give up the Cross-Base highway? Have they sacrificed any ST route extensions? Have they asked for fewer buses? Where have the people asking for our money economized? What items on the wish list have they crossed off?
@30 “It’s what they want if they had loads of money. It’s not ‘the other 85 percent.'”
You’ve got it backwards, Will. They want loads of money from us so they can get what they want. Do you really believe they’ve given up on the other 85 percent? Where? What has been crossed off the list?
Have the promoters of RTID/ST2 said, “This is all the money we’ll ever ask you for?”
Geez, Will, pull the duct tape off your eyes.
@ 34
520 will have two more lanes than before, but those lanes will be HOV. HOV. H. O. V. H to the izzo, V to the izzay.
The Cross Base Highway is as dead as Julius Caesar. It will never be built. People are pretending it’s gonna get built just so John Ladenberg doesn’t have a fit.
Sacrificing ST routes is counter to the recent polling done. People want more light rail, not less. Also, light rail has economic benefits that, over all, will pay for themselves approximately 8 years after it opens. As has happened everywhere else light rail has been built.
As for what COULD have been in RTID and wasn’t is a very big list. People like Transportation Choices Coalition went to war over RTID, and got a lot of crapola knocked off the list.
@ 36
That’s ridiculous. Of course we’ll vote on more transportation funding in the future. When light rail opens, demand will increase.
Paying for transportation is hard, and we’ll always have to do it. The reason it is all coming to a head now is that old timers like you have been punting on this issue FOR YEARS.
@34
“Did they give up the Cross-Base highway?”
Not only are they not giving up on the CBH County and state electeds wont change the growth boundaries or buy up development rights in SE Pierce County to lessen the sprawl that will come with the CBH.
The good thing about the CBH is that everyone still pushing for it is old and will be going away soon. Once John Ladenburg is term limited out of office the CBH will die a quiet death. We just have to defeat it one more time before it goes away forever.
@33
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having that opinion. People who like driving don’t want to be stuck on the road with people who don’t like (or suck at) driving but don’t have another option.
@38 “As for what COULD have been in RTID and wasn’t is a very big list.”
The other 85% they’re going to ask for later.
@6
“2. 6.2 million x 52% = 3.2 million people living in King, Pierce, and Snohomish counties”
Not everyone in Pierce County is part of RTID.
@36
“Paying for transportation is hard, and we’ll always have to do it. The reason it is all coming to a head now is that old timers like you have been punting on this issue FOR YEARS.”
Absolutely! But, RTID is still a bad idea that has shaky funding and wont reduce the need to own a car (second largest house hold expense), vehicle miles traveled per year or increase the safety of our roadways.
We do need leadership on transportation, but this isn’t it.
@ 44
Voting for ST2/RTID will build more light rail than currently exists in Portland, OR. THAT’S leadership.
@43 I’m not sure where the RTID boundaries are, but if my calculation of the population base is too high, then my calculation of the per-household cost is too low. These are nuances, however. The main point is the transportation wish list will cost taxpayers an incredible sum of money.
@44 The question is not whether light rail is good. The question is how much transportation can we afford? When I can’t afford something I want, I don’t buy it. If I can’t afford something you want, and you make it buy it anyway, where does that leave me?
@45
Yep it will add a bunch of light rail. But with the GMA continuing to be under attack and the growth boundaries out as far as they are we’ll never have high enough population densities for anything other than a small system in King County, along I-5 and Tacoma’s 1.8 mile line.
RTID will help sprawl grow increasing flooding, air and noise pollution, to name just a few things. VMT and commute times wont go down as housing will continue to be built way the hell away from employment centers and people will be stuck on over burdened, dangerous and underfunded county feeder roads.
You’re taxing a really small base of people for what would traditionally come from the state general fund and the federal government. RTID doesn’t even tax everyone in K,S &P counties. I’m in Gig Harbor and I’m outside the boundary. Even if this does pass I doubt it will get built. If people balk bad enough after the fact the project will fizzle. You might want to read this:
http://www.time.com/time/magaz.....-3,00.html
We need to buck-up the GMA, pull in the growth boundaries, fund things the old fashioned way, fold up RTID and have the state Leg. and WSDOT do the deciding on what gets built (thats why we pay them the big bucks!). That would be a good start.
Light rail doesn’t work if you have low density development like we have. Portland’s rail lines work because Oregon passed stringent growth management laws 20-25 years ago and stopped funding highway projects.
Why not wait until the bridge sinks? Drive with a life preserver. Seriously. This is cheaper than $4 billion dollars for a new 20 bridge.
If you fear earthquakes, why focus only on 520, when the same earthquake will bring down houses and schools and other bridges and roadways, too?
The new 520 (the 6 lane model) will be three times wider than the existing one and twice as high. Why spend $4 billion to get 2 more lanes?
In Switzerland they just built a 21 mile tunnel 5,000 feet under the highest Alps for just $3.5 billion. Our new 520 would cost more although it is about 1/10 as long and it floats above water instead of being a mile below ground. Why?
Why do we build floating bridges anyway, if they only last 60 years?
The Tacoma Narrows bridge was about $900 million. Why is the new 520 4x or 5x more?
If the point is to add HOV lanes, why not paint the existing lanes we’ve got today, to make HOV lanes with the bridge we’ve got today?
Should read 520 bridge not 20 bridge.
@49 The solution to 520’s high cost is obvious! Instead of building a bridge on concrete pontoons, build a (a) suspension bridge or (b) tunnel. Either would be cheaper.
@ 48
You’re just wrong about some of that stuff. The GMA is plenty strong enough (make it any more restrictive, you face the kind of initiative that passed in Oregon to do away with zoning regs).
You got that backwards. Build the light rail, then the density will come. It’s happening on MLK Way, and it’ll happen all the way south to Tacoma.
Folks like the Sierra Club don’t think suburban folks are somehow not worthy of light rail. That’s a big mistake.
You can’t build a suspension bridge, the bedrock is too deep (like 400′ if i recall). A tunnel would be massively more expensive than a floating bridge.
The engineers who put these proposals together aren’t idiots.
-OM
@52
It’s a little bit of a chicken or the egg argument. Yes, if you build the rail people come, but you need people to pay to get the rail built. Tacoma’s downtown revitalization was paid for, mostly, by the state and federal government.
There isn’t that much housing being built in down town Tacoma and what is being built has a 10 year property tax exemption on it. It will be a long time, if ever, before those folks are paying their own way. And again: none of the people buying condos in down town Tacoma today paid a dime towards Tacoma’s light rail line.
The vast majority of new housing in Pierce County is low density, far from urban cores and can’t support much, if any, form of mass transit. We need to change how we develop so that rail transit is more feasible.
I’m a Sierra Club member, I live in the suburbs and would love to be able to ride light rail. The new Narrows Bridge is set up to handle light rail trains and there’s some talk of a Gig Harbor to Down Town Tacoma line. But, the Gig Harbor area doesn’t have and wont have the density to support it, same goes for most of suburban Pierce County.
I’d love to see rail transit really take off. I just don’t think this package will do it.
Will writes: “Folks like the Sierra Club don’t think suburban folks are somehow not worthy of light rail. That’s a big mistake.”
Will, you’re a liar.
Back up the above statement with an actual quote from the Sierra Club, or you will be a proven liar.
Back up the above statement with an actual quote from the Sierra Club, or you will be a proven liar.
No, he’d still be an accused liar, not a proven one.
Roger Rabbit said “The people who make careers of extracting money from taxpayers play this game well.”
I don’t drive by here enough to know if you’re yet another wingnut living in a wingnut world; but the character you describe here is straight out of Wingnut Central.
He’s an evil, manic government employee who –bwahahahaha –lives– LIVES, I SAY! – to enact taxes on us poor citizens (clearly because his own super-government-salary is exempt from taxes). He can’t spend our money fast enough! And the politicians we elect can do nothing to stop him! He spends his days creating new programs that suck the money right out of our wallets!
Have you ever noticed that this guy, for all the talk about him in the wingnutosphere, has never actually been identified? Hmmm, why could that be? Oh, wait, I’ve got it: he’s probably hiding out somewhere with those dirty toe-tapping homosexuals who work day and night to “convert” our children to the “gay lifestyle,” and the scary brown people who threaten our very economy by STEALING all the choice day-labor, landscaping and fruit-picking jobs. Oh, oh, let’s not forget the godless Democratic hordes who secretly long for an oppressive Islamic fundamentalist society. Yeah, that’s it. They’re all in an undisclosed location, teaming up to destroy All That Is Pure And Good. Makes ’em even scarier that way.
You know, the real world can be a vewy scawy place; but, I promise you, it’s nowhere near as scary as the world that’s been planted in the minds of stupid wingnuts (and miscellaneous others who, regardless of political persuasion, still believe in cartoon villains).
otter poop
the Sierra Club’s entire leadership is based out of Seattle.
Mike Obrien
Mike McGinn
Tim Gould
I could go on
These are Seattle centric urban elites that define modern day environmentalism as building 500,000 dollar lofts above expensive grocery stores, which are next to expensive restaurants that have a streetcar and a rack for their titanium bikes.
How the middle class in South King County that has been priced out of Mke, Mike and Tim’s urban utopia gets to and from their job that still happens to be in Bellevue or Seattle is of little concern to these elite greenstreamists.
Their solution, put the bums on slow buses stuck in traffic so that their urban elite clan can ride a street car a couple blocks (instead of driving their SUV’s) to pick up some gorganzola and a nice pinot at Whole Foods.
Seriously, when do you think Mike Obrien was in Kent last or Federal Way or Burien? And he wants to write transportation policy for these communities. Give me a break.
Phase 3 is next if phase 2 passes asking for billons more.
This is a waste of money. “New high-occupancy-vehicle lanes opened Friday on a 12-block stretch of Highway 99 in Federal Way. The $15 million project, funded mainly through a 2003 gas-tax increase” sure helps the traffic flow on the free-way.
Knowing just a bit about mortgage rates and the like, and being in possession of a pocket calculator, I’m beginning to understand how everyone is getting their respective figures.
Will’s $250 annual figure seems to be “per person”, rather than “per household”, and comes from figuring the annual cost on fifty year bonds at about 5%. Using those assumptions and figures, it’s about right.
Roger’s $12,890 comes from the figuring he showed (thanks, Roger) and his numbers are probably a bit closer than my rough estimations (I came up with a project cost of about $5,500 per person, and used that for my computation).
Those two sets of numbers are not contradictory, they’re just looking at the same situation two different ways. This is about the same as the car dealer telling you that $25,000 auto is only costing you $350 per month.
But… Roger makes another good point. Anyone that actually believes that this $16.5 Billion is the last word on this, or even the last word we’ll hear for a few years simply hasn’t been paying attention to similar requests made over the last few years.
And Roger’s scenerio, where the old 520 bridge is demolished, the approaches are built and then DOT comes back and asks “OK, now would you like us to build a bridge here? Great! It will cost you about $(fill in whatever you want here, it will be too low).
Many around here remember that I have little love for the DOT, as there is this toll bridge that the wonderful voters of Thurston, King, Mason and Jefferson Counties decided that I need to pay for. I also note that the DOT has decided that the tolls shouldn’t just go to paying for the bridge itself, but also to bridge-related functions as paying for two State Patrol vehicles, tow trucks, regular maintenance, etc…
But now I’m supposed to just trust that they’ll be able to make do with this bond measure, along with the fuel taxes and other recent bonds still being paid off.
Yeah, right. What was that old saying? “I may have been born at night, but it wasn’t last night.
Yes, the 520 bridge is an important link, and we cannot allow it to sink into the lake. Yes, we need regional rapid transit, and should expect to pay for it. Yes, there are other pressing transportation needs that we must address.
But I have to agree with Roger that this bond issue is just the tip of the iceberg, and that this particular iceberg is unacceptable. DOT is giving us an “all or nothing” program with a number of nice-to-have, but unacceptably expensive items thrown in.
Still, I’d be happy to vote for any sort of toll you want to put on the bridge. Put a 520 toll on the ballot over here, and it will pass by a landslide.
Just our little way of saying “thanks”.
@58
The leadership of the Sierra Clubs Cascade chapter is made up of people from throughout the Cascade Chapter, which covers all of western Washington. The Population of western Washington is heavily skewed towards King County, and yeah, that is somewhat representative in the make up of club leadership.
I’ve never met Mike O’brien, but I’ve met most of the other people now serving on the leadership and your characterization of them is way off base.
I got it Libs, we’ll all donate our old cars, crunch em up and dump them all around the 520 bridge to hold it up.
We can take the viaduct and dump it there too.
When the lake starts rising, you can even claim global warming done it.
YEEEEEEE HAAWWWWWWWWWW
@62
Are you going to just sit there and let us lefties steal your anti-tax thunder?
@58
Since I was named above, here are some facts. The Sierra Club decision to oppose RTID/ST joint ballot measure was made by the Executive Committee of the Cascade Chapter — essentially its board. The Executive Committee is composed of representative of each Sierra Club group in the chapter, and nine at-large members. The group representatives are from Bellingham, Snohomish, Seattle, East King, South King, Tacoma, and Vancouver, and each group has its own executive committee. The at-large members are primarily from Seattle, and one lives in Yakima.
Before the chapter level vote, the issue was discussed by group executive committees, Chapter issue committees, the Chapter Political Committee and the Chapter Conservation Committee, who instructed their representatives how to vote, and offered recommendations to the Executive Committee.
An issue of this magnitude received enormous attention from the Sierra Club’s dedicated volunteers. The primary issue that motivated the Sierra Club in its decision was not Seattle, the East Side, Tacoma, or anything else. It was global. The earth’s climate is changing due to human reliance on fossil fuels. The scientists tell us we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050 to avoid catastrophic climate change. The largest source of these emissions in Washington state is transportation — 50 percent plus. Clean cars alone won’t us to that goal, we also need fewer cars. The joint ballot measure, if passed guarantees more cars — lots more cars. Which is why the joint ballot measure will make global warming worse. When the time came to take a stand, the vote by the Chapter Executive Committee was unanimous, or close to it (I don’t sit on that commmittee).
It was clear that parochial concerns played no role in the ultimate decision — concern for the fate of our planet is what drove the Sierra Club.
Many of the comments seem to focus on attacking the motivation, competence, or political judgment of the Sierra Club. But few seem to address the substance –that the RTID/ST joint ballot measure will make global warming worse.
At this point of history, I am enormously proud to be associated with the Sierra Club as a volunteer. Will we confront the challenge of climate change? Are we prepared to change the way we live, work and get around to deliver a planet as bounteous to our children as it has been to us? Do we trust in our individual and collective creativity, ingenuity and energy to ensure a new better future?
Or do we say that we can’t change, that we just have to keep building more and more roads, and climate change, well, political reality, you know how that is.
The Sierra Club is in the business of changing political reality. It thinks political reality needs to respond to “actual reality” — that the planet is warming dangerously, and we need to step up to the challenge. It is the Sierra Club’s job to say what it thinks when it sees such misguided taxing and spending to make climate change worse. The Sierra Club’s many many volunteers are to be commended for calling it like they see it, and devoting their time and energy, and trusting ultimately in the good sense of their fellow citizens, to do the right thing on global warming.
Michael McGinn
John Barelli: What you and Pelletman fail to mention is who’s in charge here in FUWA. Moonbat!s.
Will, you wrote: “Folks like the Sierra Club don’t think suburban folks are somehow not worthy of light rail. That’s a big mistake.”
Why do you refuse to back up what you wrote? Is it because you know it’s a lie? Come clean. You’ll feel better.
The documentation of the $94,000 in taxes per household average for Proposition 1 (Roads & Transit, aka, the RAT) in the published tabloid flyer from Washington Traffic Institute (a rant about this flyer being the kickoff to this thread of commentary) is posted as the first quick link item at http://www.RoadsAndTransitFactual.info. The link is titled, “See details of the estimated year-by-year Proposition 1 regional tax collection of $157 billion.”
$94,000 is a 50 year average-per-household number (rounded up from $93,600) based on latest available information provided by government agencies. It is derived from Sound Transit and RTID spreadsheets, but is extrapolated into the future to include the 30-year bond repayment after 20 years of construction. When government agencies change their estimates, the 50-year number changes.
The annual per household number varies year by year, but the No-to-Prop-1 campaign is calling it “almost $2,000” or “approximately $2,000” per year as an average, again shown in the document posted at the above site. Check it out. It downloads as a one page pdf.
The government officials behind http://www.roadsandtransit.org have a way of making the annual number much smaller. Of course they do. The government calculation of the per family in the low hundreds only describes the first year, leaves off the taxes that businesses pay and include in higher prices, and leaves out the permanent continuation of Sound Transit phase one taxes that are not going to be rolled back (a possibility promised in the 1996 campaign) if Prop 1 passes.
The 2007 No-to-Prop1 campaign thinks it is more accurate to leave in these elements.
The Yes campaign website at this moment has no information at all on costs and taxes. That web is http://www.yesonroadsandtransit.org .
If you want even more information, there is an independent calculation of what regional families pay now in transportation taxes posted at http://www.washingtonpolicy.or.....index.html .
“Many of the comments seem to focus on attacking the motivation, competence, or political judgment of the Sierra Club.”
True. But don’t take it personally. The self-interested proponents of RTID/ST2 launch the same kinds of attacks against anyone who questions any aspect of how Sound Transit has been operating.
Their mean-spirited ad hominem attacks intensify if anyone criticizes ST’s taxing plans, or black-box spending practices. They are paid to do that.
-The government officials behind http://www.roadsandtransit.org have a way of making the annual number much smaller. Of course they do.-
John Niles forgets to mention Sound Transit’s methodology and calculations were reviewed, vetted and signed-off on by the Governor / Legislature – appointed Expert Review Panel.
…as opposed to the “Paid Hacks in Right Wing Think Tanks Review Panel” which John Niles and his band of anti-transit activists populate. Because he is an intellectual lightweight more interested in feeding his ideology than actually searching for the truth, Niles does these little drive-by’s, but avoids going tet-a-tet with the people who would expose him for the fraud he is.
Niles knows he can request the data and calculations behind the state’s figures (maybe he has already done so) but John Niles and his eastside dinosaur counterpart, Jim MacIsaac, will never try to actually pick apart the other side’s numbers or methodology. If they actually used standard metrics, or standardized methodology, both these has-beens would get flogged. So keep a look out for the petty drive-by’s to continue. Just toss the rock and run.
John Niles and his Kemper Freeman-funded pavement hounds are paid to lie.
The state-appointed Expert Review Panel was set-up to prevent local government from stretching the truth even slightly.
It’s pretty easy to decide who is right. Unless you’re somebody who thinks Intelligent Design is gospel, and the invasion of Iraq will save Western Civilization.
The anti-transit folks around here are masters at manipulating data.
This time, it’s “cost per household” for the ST/RTID taxes. The enormous figures are based on a number of false assumptions. First, they assume that ST taxes go on for ever. ST data show, however, that by 2027, when construction is finished, revenues will exceed the ST’s operating and debt service costs, and taxes will be lowered — unless of course votes vote to build more projects. And as the bonds are paid off, taxes can be lowered further.
Second, they assume that ALL the ST and RTID taxes will be passed on to households, and only those households that occupy the taxing district. They assume that NONE will be passed on to visitors or tourists. They further assume that every business will pass on 100% of the taxes it pays, and that those businesses will find a way to assess only those families that live in the district. They assume that no business will have to absorb some or all of these taxes for competitive purposes.
Third, they get the high numbers by factoring in inflation. In those out years, when they are proclaiming about $X,000 annual tax bills, they don’t mention that a loaf of bread will be $16, a gallon of gas will be $20, and a latte will be $20. That would provide a perspective they don’t want people to have.
There’s a classic book that many of us read in our undergraduate years called How to Lie With Statistics. Its purpose was to inculcate some healthy skepticism in an educated public. Others read it for reverse purposes however, reverse engineering if you will, and use its lessons to manipulate and misrepresent. Seems to me that’s what we’re seeing more of from the anti-transit folks these days.
-Roger Pence-