Lessons not to be learned from the Tacoma shootings

Sunday’s tragic shooting spree at the Tacoma Mall prompted exactly the type of response you’d expect from the ardent Second Amendment Libertarians on the right. The solution to gun violence? More guns.

As Michael reported over on BlatherWatch, right-wing talk radio was all aflutter with the lessons to be learned from this tragedy.

… one caller told Carlson (who agreed) that the whole darn thing would have never happened if one out of three citizens in the mall was carrying a firearm.

Well, as it turns out, at least one citizen in the mall was armed that day.

The man who was critically wounded during Sunday’s shooting rampage at Tacoma Mall drew a pistol and confronted the gunman before he was cut down by gunfire, his family said Tuesday.

Witnesses told McKown’s family that he was shot after he pulled his own handgun during the shooting.

“Our understanding is that Dan drew his weapon and confronted the gunman,” his stepmother, Beverly McKown, said during a news conference Tuesday at Tacoma General Hospital.

McKown is the only one of the six victims to be critically wounded. He was shot twice in the abdomen and may suffer permanent paralysis due to spinal damage.

Now I don’t mean to necessarily criticize McKown for choosing to draw his weapon; it may have been a courageous, selfless act. But it certainly didn’t end up making him any safer.

In fact, statistics consistently show that the number one risk factor for death by handgun is owning one. A gun in the home increases household members risk of homicide by 3 times, and the risk of suicide by 5 times. Indeed, of our nation’s 30,242 gun deaths in 2002, 56 percent were suicides.

I myself know how to handle a weapon — taught by Quakers, oddly enough — but choose not to own one for exactly these reasons. Guns tend to make their owners less safe, not more. (Though I suppose arming myself might slightly decrease my risk of harm from right-wing death squads, so perhaps I should reconsider?)

So if there is any lesson to be learned from the tragedy in Tacoma, it is certainly not that more citizens should be armed. If your concern is personal safety, knowing exactly how and when to use a handgun is much more important than simply carrying one.

[Cross-posted to Daily Kos]


  1. 1

    GBS spews:

    The lesson to be learned is the same on I learned in the military: Don’t draw your weapon unless your intention is to immediately fire and kill the other person.

    If the citizen drew his weapon and “confronted” the shooter, then he’s lucky he didn’t have to pay for that mistake with his life.

    The statistics prove themselves out over and over and Goldy’s right. Owning a gun increases your odds of being killed by a gun. And, in other countries where firearms are outlawed the murder rates are significantly lower when compared to the US on a per capita basis.

    Since more right wing trolls own guns, then they are the ones more likely to be killed by gunfire. Where’s the problem?

  2. 2

    Rico spews:

    Hey Goldy.

    Just discovered your site, I like it, thanks for having a laugh. Thanks for the chance to vote on something meaningful too, I just voted FU in the foul language poll – hehe!

    Anyway, about guns. The only reason Americans need guns is to stop the government taking away their remaining rights. All other issues aside, this is one good reason in this day and age to argue for private gun ownership.

    I know you will say that is paranoid, but I used to be vehemently against gun ownership (I was willing to shoot people over it!) – – and I still don’t own a gun. However, you must admit that the past 5 to 10 years provides plenty of evidence to suggest that martial law in this country is a liklihood, and tyrannical government is not far away.

    Keep up the good work.

    Peace Out!

  3. 3

    Food for Thought spews:

    CCW Pistol vs. Rifle is a bad bet. If the gentleman who was carrying did blather some nonsense at him first, shame on him. He’s paying for it with the loss of his mobility, if nothing else.

    Can’t say I know what I would have done in the same situation. Probably run unless cornered. Those who do carry usually understand the responsibility they are opting for by doing so. It’s not to be a damn hero.

    I suspect that very few of your readers have ever actually had to defend themselves with a firearm against an aggressor. It’ll change your perspective a bit.

  4. 4

    John McDonald spews:

    McKown made a mistake. When someone is firing a gun wildly at a crowd, and you have a gun, you don’t confront them, you shoot them. And you use the element of surprise and do it from behind if possible.

    This is one of those tired topics circa 1992. Bottom line, taking away guns does not remove them from the hands of criminals. There may be a lot of dumb people out there who own guns, don’t know how to handle them or store them, and end up shooting themselves, but taking guns away from everyone, is not going to get guns out of the hands of those who want to use them to commit crimes.

  5. 7

    Random 04 spews:

    In fact, statistics consistently show that the number one risk factor for death by handgun is owning one. A gun in the home increases household members risk of homicide by 3 times

    Guns tend to make their owners less safe, not more.

    Correlation isn’t causation. Ever think that people might be more likely to own guns because they live in an unsafe area and want protection? Maybe those people would be 5 times more likely to be the victim of homicide, but owning a handgun reduces that risk to 3 times more likely. I’m not saying that this is what is going on, but it appears completely plausible and simple correlation statistics prove nothing at all, except for liberals who are willing to grab at meaningless statistics to support their views. (disclaimer: I am liberal and I hate guns, but I hate these types of arguments, which liberals seem all too willing to make.)

  6. 8

    JCH spews:

    Gangs: Crips, Bloods…..All Democrats with guns. BTW, Hitler and Stalin made sure the citizens were disarmed. Kind of like today’s Democrats. You liberals are fools.

  7. 9

    JCH spews:

    Gun owners tend to be Republican. Criminals tend to be Democrats. Gun owners should “thin the Democrat herd”.

  8. 11

    Apache Fog spews:

    Nobody’s shot Charleton Heston and he’s packin’. All you LEFTIST PINHEADS seem to forget that!

    Mr. Cynical

  9. 12

    John McDonald spews:

    And to be clear on few things. One, I agree with you Goldstein. I applaud you for not simply coming out against guns, but stating that the lesson is that if you are going to own a gun, learn how to use it properly. Full disclosure, I don’t own a gun, because I don’t have gun safe to make it properly accessible, yet safe, but I do not know to maintain, fire and use one properly. A gun is a machine, like a car, or a tablesaw. One should now how to use powerful machines safely. (And as an aside, if we are going to worry about guns, we should spend all of those efforts worrying about cars first. There are far more dangerous people behind the wheel of cars every day. If it were up to me, the driving test would be about 100 times harder than it is today.)

    But the thing that worries me the most is comments like that of rujax206 @6. Goldstein, I’m telling you, it’s only a matter of time before the hatred generated in your post forum leads someone to do something bad, from defacing property, stalking, up to who knows what? You darn well ought to run your blog more carefully like others out there running blogs who don’t tolerate the irrational hateful comments? Ask Lawyer X, your liability is huge. I hope you’ve got good insurance.

  10. 13

    danw spews:

    Goldy leaves town, and the place goes hell. Is Goldy a calming influence? Was this kid pissed about I-912? Can we call him a terrorist? More Americans get killed by Americans with guns, than all those crazy Islamic countries combined, kill. I think we need to raise the Terror level, with Xmas coming,the economy sucking and jobs that don’t pay enough to live on, there is going to be some serious gunfire.
    As for all the republifucks with guns, don’t forget to either buy a nice present for the wife, or get a gun safe. You’ll be okay though, just put it on your credit card like the Bushies do and let your kids pay for it when you die.

  11. 14

    christmasghost spews:

    jimmy……a heavily armed democrat? good for you. but i think most of the people on here would just call you a ‘redneck’ for admitting that.
    the rule is …is you are going to point a gun at someone you better be willing to use it. as in lethal force. 40 years ago the man probably would have just shot the guy in the mall….but now everyone[law abiding citizens that is] would think twice because of the law suits and ACLU bitching that would follow.
    owning a gun DOES NOT increase your chances of being killed by a gun. more BS from the far left. all the rules and regulations dreamed up since the sixties for “gun control” have done nothing to interfere with the criminals owning guns….have they? no?
    then what is the real agenda here?
    as for McKown’s actions……did any of you stop to think that he may have SAVED lives with his actions? with his own sacrifice?
    i have had a gun pulled on me while trying to run a poacher off our ranch and it is not an experience you ever forget.BUT……i followed the rules [pull a gun you better use it] and chambered a shell in my handy pump action shotgun[ the perfect “girl” gun…cause they may think you can’t get them all, but you can …lol] leveled it at him and told him he could “lay down or FALL down” he lay down. but i would have shot him if he hadn’t. at that point [he pulled the gun first] it was him or me. and he had already chambered a shell. so i was really not completely following the rules. who wants to take a life if you don’t have to? but, to be honest, i wouldn’t have minded shooting the creep. …… after i saw the three coyotes he had killed just for their tails and the hell of it. what an idiot.
    however, on the coyotes behalf….his truck wasn’t so lucky. i told him to send me a bill and then i would nail him for trespassing AND poaching.
    funny…..i never got the bill……….

  12. 15

    Left Turn spews:

    I too am a heavily armed Democrat. But I wouldn’t walk around the mall with my weapon. And the POINT of Goldy’s thread is that the inbred, right wing morons on talk radio had this whole thing figured out – until it tuned out they were wrong again. What you want to bet that Carlson won’t be talking about THIS anymore?

  13. 16

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Hearing Goldy and the other LEFTIST PINHEADS anti-gun rhetoric makes me even more confident that my buddy’s Emergency Preparedness Kit is the way to go…….
    All he has in case of an earthquake, tsumani or other disaster is a small bottle of water.
    Plus 3 handguns and 5 rifles and a ton of ammo!
    Oh yeah, the ONLY reason he has the small bottle of water is in case he gets thirsty on his way over to Goldy’s house…..where he will come and TAKE all Goldy’s stuff!!!
    What are we having for our meals when the big one hits???
    If folks are hungry and desperate enough, I doubt seriously that your “fancy” way with words is going to convince anyone with a gun not to steal your shit!
    I am glad all you CLOWNS are committed to lay down your arms.
    Puddy, PacMan, MTR and the rest of us will have “easy–pickins” and eat like Royalty….thanks to CLOWNS like you!
    PS We are NOT into Cannibalism!!! We are into survival.

  14. 17

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I’ve had a CCW and owned a gun for years — I won’t get into the reasons why, except to say it was necessary. I’m a Vietnam veteran, was trained by the military, and was a military trainer — one of my military jobs was teaching recruits to use military weapons. Here is what I have to say about the subject of guns and self-defense.

    1. The best way to protect your home and family is owning a large noisy dog. Better yet, TWO large noisy dogs, because it’s fairly easy for a burglar or home invader to take out 1 dog but nearly impossible to take out 2 dogs at once.

    2. In a home with children, guns must be locked up at all times, so if they’re stored safely, they’re not available for use when you need them — so you may as well not have them.

    3. If you confront an attacker with a gun, his instinctive reaction is to remove the threat by taking the gun away from you. He will almost never do what you tell him to do (e.g., get on the ground or put his hands up). The reaction you can expect over 90% of the time is that he will freeze in his tracks, look for an opportunity to lunge for the gun, and he very likely will try it if he thinks he has a chance. If he does, you have no choice but to shoot him, and the odds of a miscalculation (and attempt) on his part are very high.

    4. His chances of success are high, too. Police statistics show that 25% of cops killed in the line of duty are slain with their own guns — and cops have training you don’t have. It takes a LOT of training and practice to effectively keep an adversary from taking your gun away from you. The primary reason why pulling a gun on an attacker is so dangerous is because very few people are psychologically prepared to shoot, but that is what you MUST do if he goes for your gun, and you must do it instantly and without thinking about it, because if you hesitate for even a moment you’re probably going to die. My guess is this is how the good guy in the Tacoma mall case got shot 4 times — he pulled his gun, but hesitated to kill the attacker for a split second — which was plenty long enough for the attacker to shoot him.

    5. Never carry a gun in a car. It’s worse than useless; given the stress level of big-city driving, there’s just too much temptation even for normally level-headed people to rely on tyhe gun to resolve a belligerent traffic situation — in a situation that falls short of legal justification … and then you’re in big-time trouble! Authorities take an extremely dim view of drivers pulling guns, and if you do, you’re almost certainly going to face prosecution and prison time — and, of course, you will lose your right to own or possess firearms for the rest of your life. In addition, leaving a gun unattended in a parked car is an invitation to have it stolen in which case it is 100% certain to end up in criminal hands. This point was driven home to me on one occasion when I found my car ransacked in the parking garage upon getting off work. Car prowlers are looking for 3 things: Credit cards, valuables, and guns. Guns are way high on their list.

    6. The legal test of self-defense in Washington is that you may use deadly force only to prevent imminent death or grave bodily harm to yourself or another person. As a private citizen, you are not permitted to shoot someone to protect property or prevent the escape of a fleeing criminal. You won’t be prosecuted if you shoot someone in your home; although Washington has not formally enacted a “Delaware law,” we have a de facto Delaware rule in that prosecutors no longer attempt to prosecute people defending their abode because they have learned our juries refuse to convict in those cases. In all other cases, you probably WILL be prosecuted, and no matter how justified you may feel, you will be second-guessed and your credibility will be called into question at every turn and the story presented to the jury in court proceedings will bear little resemblance to what actually happened, so there is a very high probability that you will be convicted even if the facts did justify private use of deadly force.

    7. The object lesson here, of course, is never try to handle a threatening situation yourself. Call the cops!!! Yes, I know that getting a timely police response can be problematical, especially in certain parts of town. If you tell the 9-1-1 dispatcher, “I have a gun, and hope I don’t have to use it,” the police will come quickly; trust me on this, I speak from experience both ways.

    8. If you shoot, make sure you kill the son of a bitch. If you are prosecuted for murder and acquitted on self-defense grounds, state law requires the state to reimburse you for your legal expenses. This rule does not apply to prosecutions for assault, so if you only wounded the guy, you’ll eat your legal expenses even if you get off. Another problem is if the guy survives, he may hunt you and harm you in the future. If he’s dead, you don’t have to look over your shoulder or live in fear, which is a lousy way to live.

    9. But don’t be so stupid as to tell the police or a jury that you intended to kill him. The law of self-defense allows you to use deadly force to “stop” a criminal about to inflict death or grave bodily harm upon you or another person, not “kill” him. You must tell the police that you “stopped” the attack, and you must remember to use the word “stop” and remember not to say “kill” in the extreme stress and confusion of the aftermath of a shooting. And for God’s sake, don’t say anything to the media!!!!!

    10. If you insist on owning a self-defense gun, get one capable of self-defense! It’s suicidal to shoot an attacker with a gun incapable of dropping him instantly — one of my classmates was killed by an armed burglar she shot with a .22 pistol. Police statistics demonstrate that a .38 with a standard police load fails to disable an armed attacker, even with multiple shots, over half the time! Even a 9mm is not adequate; police departments and NATO military organizations use the 9mm as standard-issue for political, not tactical, reasons. If you decide to own a self-defense handgun, get a .357 magnum or better yet a .45 ACP semi-auto — then learn to use it! Take a self-defense course, and a shooting course, and learn to shoot it both left and right handed. Then take it to a gunsmith and have it equipped with an ambidextrous safety, and a semi-auto should also be throated and ramped so it will reliably feed hollowpoint ammunition, which is the only kind you should load it with. Forget the Geneva Convention; you are a civilian, do NOT try to stop an armed attacker with standard-issue military ball ammo, it won’t do the job!

    11. But don’t let your gunsmith sell you a laser sight or combat sight, because having that equipment on your handgun will make you look like the aggressor. A self-defense gun doesn’t need ANY sight, because if you shoot someone from much more than arm’s length away, you’re going to jail. In fact, there’s a good argument for filing off the sight, so it won’t catch on your clothing or hinder a fast draw.

    12. The proper way to carry a deployed handgun is with your finger off the trigger and extended straight forward along the barrel, the way the police do, for obvious safety reasons.

    13. Gun experts argue about whether to carry a semi-auto “locked and cocked” because of the risk of accidental discharge. I go with the L & C school of thought, because if you need the gun, you won’t have time to chamber a round, and an unloaded gun is no goddam good for self-defense.

    Summary — I hope I’ve convinced you that owning or carrying a gun is more physical and legal risk than it’s worth, but if you decide to do it anyway, then I hope I’ve educated you in what to do and, more importantly, what NOT to do. It’s easy to pry a gun from the cold-dead-fingers of a damn fool who bought a gun, threw it in a drawer, and knew nothing about how to win (i.e., how to avoid losing) a gunfight.

  15. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “This is one of those tired topics circa 1992. Bottom line, taking away guns does not remove them from the hands of criminals.”

    Hey John, chill out, nobody’s going to restrict your gun ownership or carry rights! Somebody floated a gun-control initiative in the 1980s, and nearly 80% of Washington voters said “no” to registering or restricting handguns. You have no worries! Washington has the most liberal handgun laws of any state, and it’s going to stay that way. Even Democrats oppose gun control here.

  16. 20

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    John, who are you kidding? In a country where Congress just passed a law immunizing gun manufacturers from lawsuits, where courts routinely dismiss claims that a TV show or movie incited a violent crime, where the airwaves are FILLED with rightwing hate talk, do you really think Goldy is at risk of being sued for exercising his rights to free speech on political topics?

    Well, yeah, you might have a point. I think the Republicans would like to make what liberals say legally actionable. They’re sure as hell doing their best to incite mob violence against us.

  17. 21

    Commander Ogg spews:

    The question is not about gun rights. The question is about gun responsibilities.

    In any civilized debate on policy, this question gets lost because to often the only voices heard among the MSM are the unlimited ownership extremist of the right and the ban them all extremist of the left. Who speaks for the ownership with limits people in the center?

    To deny that the US is the world’s biggest armory is absurd. To even imagine that the American people would ever give up their right to keep and bear arms is even crazier? And while I do not personally own a weapon, a citizen with no criminal record should be allowed to own a gun.

    But back to obligations, how was a convicted criminal allowed to obtain a weapon? Like driving a car or freedom of speech, you have a responsibility to your fellow citizens not to drive drunk or yell fire in a crowded theater. If it turns out that the guns used by this Meshugener were not stolen, then either he got them from family or friends, or bought them in a public or private sale. But only a licensed seller is required to do a back round check. The unlicensed private seller is not accountable if he sells a weapon to a criminal.

    Having spent 20 years as a weapons repairer for the US Army, I know exactly how small, compact, and lethal the so called hose guns can be (so named because you can spray bullets from them like water from a garden hose). If the idea of civic duty is not enough to prevent a citizen from selling or giving a gun to a psychopath, then maybe we should enforce it by law.

  18. 22

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “jimmy……a heavily armed democrat? good for you. but i think most of the people on here would just call you a ‘redneck’ for admitting that.”

    You are seriously underestimating us, dearie.

  19. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Hey Cyn — in case of earthquake or tsunami, send your buddy over to MY house, er … burrow. We have too damn many Republicans fouling our society and one less would contribute to sanity, civility, and public order.

  20. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Rice Talks U.S. Troop Reductions in Iraq
    “Newspaper Reports of Plans for Pulling Back Three Brigades
    “By JoAnne Allen, Reuters

    “WASHINGTON (Nov. 23) – The United States may not need the number of troops it has in Iraq ”all that much longer,” U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said amid reports the Pentagon may pull back three combat brigades.

    “‘I suspect that American forces are not going to be needed in the numbers that they’re there for all that much longer …,’ Rice told CNN on Tuesday. She said ‘the number of coalition forces is clearly going to come down ….'”

    Hmmm … weren’t Dick Cheney and Jean Schmidt calling Democrats “reprehensible” and “cowards” just a couple days ago for suggesting troop withdrawals?

    Is Condi Rice now a reprehensible coward? Or are Republicans in general just fucking hypocrites and name-callers?

  21. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Schmidt — you will recall — was booed off the floor of the U.S. House on Friday after criticizing Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., a 37-year Marine, by saying “cowards cut and run, Marines never do.” Schmidt said her remark was instigated by a conversation she had with Ohio State Representative Danny Bubp, but he denies discussing Murtha with her, and said he would never call a fellow Marine a “coward.”

    Schmidt has withdrawn her remark from the congressional record (hey, didn’t one of our resident trolls criticize a Democrat congressman just a few days ago for editing his speech?) and apologized to Murtha. But what the hell, Jane Fonda apologized to Vietnam veterans — and a lot of them didn’t accept her apology, and never will. Well, Schmidt too is gonna learn if you do something incredibly stupid and offensive, you can’t undo it, and you live with it for the rest of your life. From news accounts I’ve read, Schmidt’s district is safe for Republicans, but she’s not safe from her fellow Republicans; a strong primary challenge next year was in the offing even before her gaffe. The best thing that Ohio Republicans can do for themselves and their national party will be to quietly retire this woman from public life and send someone else to Congress to represent that district.

  22. 26

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Betcha if Stefan wins his PDA lawsuit against KCRE, the greedy prick will keep all the money for himself, and won’t share a penny of it with the generous contributors to his “legal action fund.” His silence on this topic is damning.

  23. 27

    Puddybud spews:

    John, if they ever take your guns and you miss the sound of gunshots, just call Randi Rosen at Scare America. She can send a sound clip of four shots.

  24. 28

    GBS spews:

    Roger Rabbit @ 18

    All good advice concernig guns, but realistically, your best option is to take martial arts training.

    When I lived in Sacramento, California I trained for 6 years to get my black belt in Shou Shu (Al Moore).

    Bottom line here is you always have your hands and feet with you even when you’re in the shower, but a gun is not always accesible or prudent to use. For instance you may hesitate to draw and fire a weapon in a classroom full of children, but if situation is right you can always engage an attacker hand to hand. Disarming a handgun is easier than most people (gun owners) care to believe. More importantly, you don’t always need to remove the gun from their grip in order to make the weapon ineffective. Knives are even easier to repel because of the close in range required to be effective.

  25. 30

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    I recall that some years back a woman with a black-belt was assaulted by a rapist in the Arboretum who either killed her or nearly killed her despite her efforts to fight back.

    I’m also reminded of the long-standing joke among gun owners that “one finger karate” trumps a black belt every time, the “one finger” being, of course, the trigger finger.

    C’mon, GBS, really now, how many violent criminals do you think are unarmed?

  26. 31

    Commander Ogg spews:

    The Martial art tichang-clikboom? (sound of a slide being pulled back and a triggerpulled/weaponfired).

  27. 32

    For the Clueless spews:

    Kudos again to the Rabbit @ 18

    Excellent advice. Liberals must never eschew weapons training if we are to effectively deter fascism!

  28. 33

    Puddybud spews:

    The statistics are in on the Australia gun law.


    *Australians Without Guns*

    Here’s a thought to warm some of your hearts…
    From: Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia:

    Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia
    taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

    The first year results are now in:

    Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
    Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
    Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

    In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals STILL possess THEIR guns!)

    While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed. There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly.

    Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in “successfully ridding Australian society of guns.” You won’t see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.

    Now you see the outcome of knee-jerk “progressives”. Criminals don’t give up their guns, good people do.

  29. 34

    Puddybud spews:


    Did You Know?
    * Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year — or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2
    * Locking up firearms can cost lives during a life-threatening situation. In California last year, two children died — they were pitchforked to death by a crazed drug addict — because a resident in the home could not access the household firearms in time. The guns were locked up in deference to California state law.3
    * Guns are the Great Equalizer for women. As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4
    * Law-abiding gun owners are a good form of crime control. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).5

  30. 35

    Heath spews:


    Sometimes you are such a left-wing nut. Statistics do now show that carrying a concealed pistol makes you less safe.

    According to the 1995 FBI Uniform Crime Report, the safest weapon to use in self-defense, during a confrontation, for both the attacker and the defender, was the handgun. Brandished, it is the most effect and least injurious force for defense of compliance, running, hand-to-hand, knife, and all other weapons that were categorized. This is from all assault reports nationwide in the US for the year 1995.

    So, there: statistics.

    The fact is, more law-abiding citizens like McKown should carry pistols. The righties are correct that we would be safer.

    By the way, statistics also show that all US counties which implemented shall-issue concealed carry permit laws experienced a drop in confrontational violent crime — averaging 19% per county. There was no drop in economic value of stolen property; the thefts just change from muggings to car prowls.

  31. 36

    christmasghost spews:

    roger..i am not underestimating you…..trust me.
    i must say that most of what you said about owning a gun was very good advice.
    clueless…your name suits you. stick with it.
    GBS…….martial arts? come on. a [ very liberal] friend of mine takes kick boxing and she claimed that she could defend herself against a man. my theory is nothing except a gun trumps crazy criminal +man. men are stronger than women…especially when nuts. so to test our theories she [who is 5’8 size 10] and me [5’3 size 4 ] decided to try it out. she was worried that she would hurt me but i pointed out that to make it a real test she would actually HAVE to try and hurt me.she was hesitant so being the nasty little conservative i am i pinched her…really hard. you know…one of those “spider” pinches that really hurt. she spun around and kicked and i grabbed her foot and dropped her to the ground…in about 5 seconds. it probably doesn’t hurt that i used to be a rancher and so was used to being fast when grabbing something…but still. it sure made her think. we tried it again and again….every move she had been taught that the teacher had guaranteed her would protect her. el wrong-o. they did not.
    and like i said …i am a shrimp.
    guns are alot like small planes.
    there are good pilots/handlers that follow the laws and rules and then there are the guys that end up on the evening news because they don’t check their fuel gauges or they leave a loaded gun around kids. my sons grew up around guns…..and they were very well trained to not touch them unless my husband or i were there. period. since we were out in the sticks [way out] i kept a loaded shotgun over the back door…safety on.when other kids came out to the ranch the gun was locked up.do i recommend keeping a loaded gun around? oh hell no……this was a special circumstance.it was necessary.
    it’s sad….but sometimes owning a gun is necessary.

  32. 37

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Mr.Heath, can you live with about 25 to 30 thousand gun deaths each year in the United States, approxamatly 10,000 of them homicides?

  33. 38

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    I’m glad to see a glimmer of common sense pearls comin’ out of yer foul mouth!
    Actually, evidence shows over & over….and a little common sense would tell the Pansy-Ass Afraid of Guns LEFTIST PINHEADS that if everyone were trained in the proper use of handguns and adhered to that training, communities would be much safer.
    If someone knew I had numerous weapons, would they break into my house??? Now way!
    I grew up in a small Midwest town where boys learned to shoot and hunt by 4th Grade. We always had venison, pheasants, grouse and occassional bear meat in the freezer. No one killed for the sake of killing. They killed to eat! They didn’t need to require Gun Safety Classes either….parents insisted on it! WHY??? Because it’s the responsible thing to do!
    Pansy-Ass LEFTIST PINHEADED CLOWNS continue to live in a Utopian fantasy world where EVERYONE buys into their bullshit and lives in “harmony”. Go ahead and insist on abusing your 1st Amendment Rights CLOWNS…..that’s why the 2nd Amendment is so important…..too protect my family & property from CLOWNS!

  34. 39

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Mr. Cynical, same question. Can you live with about 25 to 30 thousand gun deaths each year in the United States, approxamatly 10,000 of them homicides?

  35. 40

    Heath spews:

    Commander Ogg –

    No. Lucky for me, very, very, few of those can be accounted for under persons legally carrying concealed pistols.

    It’s fine to want to disarm criminals and have a safer society, but you don’t want to start with the people who are having a good effect on your safety.

    Also, commander Ogg, nice handle. Do people still actuall play?

  36. 41

    For the Clueless spews:


    Wow I’m impressed. This coming from the same person who moved from failure (Rossi) to failure (Ahhnold).

  37. 42

    Heath spews:

    By ‘start with the people who are having a good effect on your safety’ I mean ‘people who legally carry concealed pistols.’

    I think it’s remarkable, stupid, and ridiculous that given this episode where there was a criminal with a rifle and a hero with a concealed pistol, that anybody would second-guess the hero. For all we know, he slowed the criminal down. He sure as hell did more to help than any of us.

  38. 43

    Commander Ogg spews:

    The handle is from an old Marvel Comic Book Charecter.

    Non the less, leagal or not, the figures for gun deaths have remained fairly consistant in the last 20 years. If we maintain status quo, we have to accept these deaths. Unless their is a solution. (I do not have one)

  39. 44

    christmasghost spews:

    clueless….although i know this is wasted on you…..here’s a question for you. what is the definition of failure?
    you should know this one………

  40. 45

    Puddybud spews:

    Do you all remember Gore’s position paper on “Gun Violence”? Didn’t Not in Tennessee Al say, “Al Gore will oppose efforts to loosen existing limits on concealed weapons.” Then the gun owners in the swing states said see ya Al, he retracted.

    Remember John “I’m Going Hunting” Kerry coming out and saying I’m a hunter. You progressives can’t have it both ways like you want in many other policy positions.

  41. 46

    Heath spews:

    Commander Ogg, you aren’t getting it.

    First, your name comes from the videogame netrek, where you would be commander-ranked and playing Orion position g, thus Og, which turned into Ogg. Netrek is from the 80’s and I assume predates the comic.

    As for legal vs. illegal and what to do about deaths….

    You aren’t following me.

    Yes, lots of deaths are caused by legally-owned handguns.

    The statistics on deaths caused by legally-owned handguns of those who have carry permits shows those guns are much less likely to result in an unintended shooting.

    So this thread is about taking guns away from the least dangerous and most helpful people who legally possess them.

    Why not start by taking away the guns from cops and just work our way down to the CPL holders next?

  42. 47


    I don’t know Goldy…

    I hail from the Brian Schweitzer wing of the party, so I don’t see what is wrong with a law abiding person owning and carrying a handgun, provided they are lawfully registered. From the P-I article, it seemed the fella sort of ran into the guy with the rifle, so he apparently didn’t have much of a shot (so to speak) to stop him. Just because he had a gun and was shot by this nutcase doesn’t mean the idea of concealed-carry to deter crime is a bad one.

  43. 49

    Mark spews:

    Scary thing, this topic. As long as we can keep idiot comments like Rujax’s out of it, this could be something with plenty of middle ground. Roger @ 18… See? Isn’t life much better when you take your meds? :) Nice post.

    I have to agree that it is about gun REPONSIBILITIES.

    It is also about being smart. This ain’t TV. I agree with GBS that the only time you pull a gun is when you’re prepared to shoot immediately. In fact, this is true with almost any kind of fight. If you can’t put an end to it right away (instantly with a gun), get out. Never stay in it long enough for the other guy to retaliate.

  44. 50


    Individuals who choose to owns guns must be responsible, because they are responsible. The minute this 20 year old decided to go on a shooting in the Tacoma Mall was the last time we as a society had a chance to stop him non-violently. What is this country had affordable, comprehensive medical care? Such individuals with mental illness could have been identified and treated. Let’s not ban guns. Let’s ban lack of health insurance.

  45. 51

    headless lucy spews:

    When I think of resisting fascism it’s not with a gun or a list of Republicans that I’m going after. It’s more like blowwing out some tires on a semi in the tunnel in I-90— on a daily basis. There are just millions of little acts of sabotage that would grind this country to a halt.

    Armed authority figures whose intention was to enforce a police state would have a half-life shorter than plutonium. Sabotage is what won the first American Revolution and it can just as easily work a second time around.
    The Republicans of today are like the Tories of the Revolution who refused to fight and later came back demanding all kinds of limitation on voting rights and an insistence on the continuation of slavery.

  46. 52

    bill spews:

    It occurs to me, we require teaching in science, english and math. In some states, disaster preparedness is a required component of school as well. Since gun ownership is constitutionally permissable, shouldn’t gun handling and safety be taught in school as part a normal curriculum? I guess I asked for an opinion that I didn’t give, I think we should.

    Given the current administrations (unconstitutional) moves to include the national guard into the main military, combined with Patriot restrictions, hasn’t the current administration done more for laying the groundwork for removing individual rights for gun ownership than any other administration in the past 40 years?

    See there again is that pesky rule of law thing again. If you want gun ownership you cant just say that you only want certain classes to have it, everyone gets them. The administrations attempts to control criminals has been so overbroad that they have actually moved us toward gun control in recent years.

  47. 53

    Puddybud spews:

    Cynical: Interesting about the midwest. In my town back east, the county sheriff held classes in gun safety. They would take you to their outdoor range and demonstrate the use of your hand gun. If you didn’t own a gun they would allow you to fire some of the confiscated guns for practice before they were destroyed. I learned much about gun recoil regarding different firearms as a 17 year old.

    Commander Ogg: There are many Internet available stories about how the homeowner’s gun saved the family and there are stories about accidental shootings in the home. The bottom line is if the homeowner decides to purchase and own a gun, caveat emptor. All I wanted to factually demonstrate to everyone as in Australia’s case, the criminal element can make your life miserable if you are the unarmed target.

  48. 54

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Sorry Heath, it still seems that you’re saying we must accept these statistics. I would be interested in a way to bring them down.

    I never played the video game. Ogg was a Badoon, a bunch of lizards that invaded earth in the 30th Century. They were stopped by the Thing and Guardians of the Galaxy.

  49. 55

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Sorry Ms. Lucy, I am not yet ready to go down that route. I still think we can kick the bastards out in ’06 by using the ballot, not the bullet (no offense Pud, Cy, MTRN, etc. I do not like the direction of our present Govment).

  50. 56

    thomas spews:

    or you could just not listen, to liberals when it comes to gun handling advice….cuz you know they have so much experience…yeah, like chucking them in to blast furnaces. Yawn, reload….boring….(didn’t they learn this topic is a loser for them)…next

  51. 57

    headless lucy spews:

    OGG: I am also looking forward to winning in ’06. Hopefully with as little corporate money as possible, so our “timid ones” in the House and Senate can feel confident enough to start actually representing their constituents rather than Corporatism.

  52. 58

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Awfull hard Lucy to get a Heroin addict to quit cold turkey, or a politician hooked on corparate cash. May need a gradual withdrawal. I do think the majority of Republicans(with the possible exception of McCain)and a few Democrats have such a high doller habit that any sudden withdrawel would kill them.

  53. 60

    Puddybud spews:

    Thomas@57: Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004 should have proved this to the lefties. Unfortunately they continue to replay and recycle their small handbook to elections wins of the 1960s and 1970s for 21st century concerns and issues. The commentary of loosy is comedy at it’s best.

    Loosy is part of the eco-terror1st gang where anarchy rules and trumps all laws. The real fascism from the loosy’s of this country is the drive to one party rule through property destruction. Doesn’t matter the outcome or people hurt. Loosy: Isn’t that the same thing you accuse GWB of? Hence people own guns to shoot those who trespass on their land. See the article this past week where the farmers in border states are purchasing AK-47s to stop Mexican drug smuggling.

  54. 61

    bill spews:

    Wow thomas, you go ahead and avoid any indication that your straw man model of what people want might be incorrect. You know what all conservatives and all liberals want, you know since they are all so monolithic in their beliefs. Its much easier for you to disagree with people that way. Also your little head won’t blow up when confronted with evidence that you might be a bit mistaken. Oh right, they are all liars, and are only saying that they believe something to confuse you. Ok, whatever.

  55. 62

    Mark spews:

    Belltowner @ 51: “…we as a society had a chance to stop him non-violently. What is this country had affordable, comprehensive medical care? Such individuals with mental illness could have been identified and treated.”

    You’re making a joke, right? The Soviet Union had a wonderful system of public “mental hospitals.”

    Based on Roger’s postings, I’m sure there is something in the DSM-IV that would apply. Can we “hospitalize” him? Please, can we, please??

  56. 63

    MEGABRAD spews:

    Sounds to me like you are more afraid of guns than dangerous criminals. I find it amusing that you won’t own a gun yourself because “statistics” tell you you’re not competent enough to own one without shooting yourself! Hahahahahaha.

  57. 64

    Mr. X spews:

    Uh oh, one of those rare posts where I mostly agree with our resident right-wingers. I do think da bunny hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways regarding the responsibilities of gun ownership and the details of weapons handling, though – if you pull a gun, you have to be willing to kill someone, or you really shouldn’t bother in the first place.

    That said, though, I don’t feel comfortable blaming the victim in this incident – as the fella who got shot trying to stop a nutjob in a public place surely was. (OTOH – if shots have already been fired in a mall, no jury will convict you if you use a gun to put a permanent stop to it instead of trying to take a shooter into custody). At least no one was killed….

  58. 65

    headless lucy spews:

    OGG: It doesn’t hurt to let your potential opponent know any real confrontation will not be a cakewalk. You’d think they’d have learned that in Vietnam, but I guess if you never went, you have no frame of reference. And that doesn’t mean that I’m a “communist”. It means that I, like Ho Chi Minh, am an admirer of Gen. George Washington — who proved that you cannot win a pitched war against a determined guerilla force.

  59. 66

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    OGGHEAD@49 sez:
    “What about the gun deaths? What about responsibility? What is to be done? Live with it?
    Comment by Commander Ogg— 11/23/05 @ 1:11 pm”
    People die in the bathtub too….what’s next, banning baths & showers??? Probably not a problem for you OggHead because I suspect you are one of those unclean, unkempt flower children who already avoid baths, showers & especially SOAP.
    Your illogic is quite telling about the typical LEFTIST PINHEAD who lives in a harmonic Fantasy World. How many deaths have been prevented by legally possessed handguns? Are you hinting that you want all law-abiding citizens to lay down there weapons and only allow criminals to have guns???
    Frankly, your quizzical charade matters little. You will need to somehow REPEAL the 2nd Amendment. Good luck Commander!!
    I suspect you are French!
    “They’ve taken their own precautions against al-Qa’ida. To prepare for an attack, each Frenchman is urged to keep duct tape, a white flag, and a three-day supply of mistresses in the house.”
    > Argus Hamilton

  60. 67

    For the Clueless spews:

    ghost @ 45

    I sometimes read your comments at (un)SP. So nutty and disconnected from reality just like Sharkansky. Same here. It’d all be so terribly amusing if it wasn’t so sad.

  61. 69

    headless lucy spews:

    re 61: Puddwhack: Do you consider befouling the earth, “… property destruction”? I do. Here’s what I think of you and your corporate property rights:

    ” Well I was walkin’ through the redwood forest

    When I saw a sign said: ‘No Trespassin”, but on the other side

    It didn’t say nothin':

    This land was made for you and me.”
    Woody Guthrie

    Chew on that awhile , moron.

  62. 70

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    lucy is clearly an anarchist at heart. It’s obviously from his vitrolic rants. Comforting to know that lucy works for the Seattle School District, huh?? Posting anarchistic drival on government time, in a government building, on a government computer using government internet connections.
    lucy is the typical far-LEFTIST PINHEADED CLOWN who cannot win with ideas….and has to resort to fear-mongering and anarchy.
    lucy is typical of your ALF & ELF members….the end justifies ANY means, including criminal.
    lucy would love to see law-abiding citizens disarmed and the 2nd Amendment repealed. lucy lives in a dream world!! Even the legitimate, non-LEFTIST Democrats on this Blog can see the danger in the lucy’s of this world.

  63. 72

    MoobatPatrol spews:

    “So if there is any lesson to be learned from the tragedy in Tacoma, it is certainly not that more citizens should be armed. If your concern is personal safety, knowing exactly how and when to use a handgun is much more important than simply carrying one.”

    The lesson to be learned is certainly not that people should not be allowed to own a handgun. The lesson is the very last sentence – that they should know exactly how and when to use one.

  64. 73

    Mark spews:

    Belltowner @ 71

    While it is true that we don’t do as good a job as we can with the mentally ill, universal healthcare is far from perfect. It SOUNDS like it should work well, but in practice there are great problems and the results are not astounding. Did you know, for example, that for people 80 years old or older, life expectancy is greater in the United States than it is in Sweden, France, England, or Japan? Have you ever looked into the significant problems Sweden has? (Not to mention their tax system).

    It is a matter of properly allocating resources. And a discussion for another thread.

  65. 74

    MoobatPatrol spews:

    Nutcase @24

    “Hey Cyn – in case of earthquake or tsunami, send your buddy over to MY house, er … burrow. We have too damn many Republicans fouling our society and one less would contribute to sanity, civility, and public order.”

    Sir – rest assured that your crazy comment has been recorded and archived for future reference. In the event that anyone turns up dead, the proper authorities will be notified. Goldstein can be subpeoned to pierce your anonymity.

  66. 75

    Heath spews:


    Sorry Heath, it still seems that you’re saying we must accept these statistics. I would be interested in a way to bring them down.

    No, I am saying that statistic show that getting rid of licensed pistol carriers would make us all less safe given the current situation.

    Advancing gun control is a great idea! Starting with the most responsible and law-abiding civilian gun owners is ass-backwards!

  67. 76

    GBS spews:

    Roger Rabbit, ChristmasGhost, Commander Ogg:

    I’m not saying that martial arts training trumps a gun, especially at a distance. My point is that you are not strapping 24/7. Like when you’re in the shower. Not everybody is packing heat for every trip to the corner store either. In the state of Washington, I think the law states you’re not permitted to bring your gun in a bank or a bar.

    The other point, is what the thread topic points out. The guy who was carrying a gun got gunned down, right? So carrying a gun for defense is not automatic. I’m also not advocating that martial arts would have saved the day in that mall, either. I’m merely adding to RR’s points about self defense that there are other alternatives that won’t land you in the same legal problems as using a gun.

    As far as your friend who takes kick boxing, no DOUBT about it she cannot defend herself using that style. Her size and strength are her Achilles tendon in those types of arts. They are primarily known as “hard” style arts like Tae Kwon Do.

    She will never have the physical attributes to use those systems successfully. She needs to investigate a “soft” art that does not rely on size and strength to be effective. Any style that wears white fighting Gi’s or white tops with black pant are hard styles (Korean and Japanese arts). She should find dojo where the fighting Gi’s are all black, (Chinese arts). Chinese soft styles are the arts that are the most effective because they don’t rely on your size or strength.

    When I was a brown belt training for my black, I sparred many black belts to get in fighting shape. I regularly sparred a petite woman (sounds like your size) who routinely kicked my ass. Believe me when I say I was going 100% and couldn’t land a clean strike on her. I also witnessed her use an open handed strike on guy in a bar who pinched her ass. She literally separated his jaw from where it hinges by the ear. One hit and it was over. Long story short the bartender called 911 and he was carted off in an ambulance.

    If she lives in the central California area be a friend and have her at least investigate the Shou Shu art. Shou Shu roughly translates to “knowledge of the Beast.” It’s 7 fighting styles are based on animals. Each animal is a martial art unto itself. Each animal has it’s strength and conversely it’s weakness. The system allows the fighter to change animals as needed and the strengths of each animal overlap the weakness of the other.

    If anyone sticks a gun in my ribs or has a barrel pointed within 3/4 of my arm’s length, I know that the odds are in my favor that I’m going to come out on top and I wouldn’t hesitate, like the CCW gun owner did, to go on the offensive.

  68. 77

    Heath spews:


    I couldn’t agree more with you. I got 3 early belts in a martial art and it worked for me. I would have to amplify your comments about Tae Kwon Do — I don’t think it works for most people, even large guys with great achilles tendon. Yes, they can kick me in the head, but I have mastered punching them in the foot. ;)

    I used to be a licensed concealed pistol carrying person. I allowed my license to expire.

    Carrying a concealed pistol is a huge pain. It is highly inconvenient. Most guns are very heavy for something you are going to strap firmly to your body. They are made of metal and do not bend with your body.

    You aren’t allowed to be in a bar or over-21 bar area with a concealed pistol; there are all sorts of other restrictions. At the same time, it’s always a risk to lock the gun in a car’s lockbox while going into a bar. Can you imagine the guilt if someone stole it? So carrying a pistol means lots of not going out to certain places, really.

    I was inspired to get my CPL by the 1995 FBI Uniform Crime Report and having moved here after living 6 years in Los Angeles. In Los Angeles, guns are tightly controlled, and so is ammo. In Los Angeles, I was way too close to a criminal with a gun on four different occassions! When I came to Seattle, I was so relieved to be allowed to carry my own gun as a non-criminal.

    Over the years, I realized two very important things:
    – In Washington, there are very few random violent confrontations like muggings.
    – Most random violent confrontations can be much better handled with martial arts; but if you are going to wrestle with people you must not be carrying a pistol.

    I have never, in 10 years living here, seen a criminal with a gun. In gun-controlled LA, I saw one on average every 18 months. I might add that 3 of the 4 occassions involved fleeing from the criminals with guns while the other time, we never even knew they were mugging our friends on our front porch.

    I wanted to add something about McKown’s story. The only insinuation I have heard that he chatted with the shooter is people reading into the word ‘confronted.’ You can silently confront someone, perhaps by brandishing a pistol.

    Oh, also: the FBI 1995 UCR did not break out self-defense by trained hand-to-hand vs. untrained. But in that report hand-to-hand vs. any sort of attack was detrimental to the defender; compliance was 2nd ‘best’ choice of response, following brandishing/firing a pistol.

    On another hand, martial arts are not a good match vs. a person with a gun. I have practiced with someone from the Navy trained in close quarters and I’m convinced a trained or ready gunman will win more than 50% of the time.

    Anyway, one thing everybody can learn is Run Fu.

    Run Fu is based on running. Remember to zig-zag. Seriously.

  69. 78

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 34, 35

    You’re preaching to the choir here, Puddcheeks. Disabuse yourself of the notion that Democrats oppose gun ownership and want to confiscate everybody’s guns. That’s a rightwing lie. But then, EVERYTHING the rightwingers say is a lie, isn’t it?

  70. 79

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 57

    Hey fuckstick — why don’t you go to Capitol Hill and try to find a Republican congressman who has any war fighting experience, or has ever lived in a bad neighborhood. Good luck! and happy hunting.

  71. 80

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 63

    Hey Mark — why don’t you put on a white coat, grab a rabbit trap, and come and get me. har har har har har har har har har

  72. 81

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Every locality has its quirky laws, and ours is no exception. A state law prohibits local governments from enacting stricter gun regulations than state law, so the City of Seattle can’t ban concealed pistols. However, the Seattle City Council could — and did — pass an ordinance banning concealed knives. So, if you venture into the Seattle city limits with a concealed weapon, make sure it’s gun, not a knife! A gun is legal, a knife is not.

  73. 82

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The main lesson to be learned from the Tacoma Mall incident is that this nut will be out on parole in less than 10 years. IMO Mr. Maldonado should never see the light of day again — how’s that for a bleeding heart liberal.

  74. 83

    Puddybud spews:

    Roger, GBS, and Ogg to a point are pretty level headed. Your loony lefty compatriots are the problem here. If the likes of people who think like loosy get in power, we all lose guys. We’ll turn into a country link my #34 comment, Australia. Is that what you want loosy, where the criminal element rules because they know their prey has no effective deterrent? WWLD (What Would Loosy Do) if a criminal visited you and tried to hurt you or your boyfriend while you two were in bed loosy?

  75. 84

    Puddybud spews:

    Yeeeeeeaaargh, RR. I can agree with #81. But it’s those loosy-like thinking judges you lefties support and put in office who will deliver that lousy 10 year sentence!

  76. 85

    Puddybud spews:

    RR, what happens if that shot Tacoma mall guy dies from his injuries after Maldonaldo is sentenced? Will the sentence automatically get longer?

  77. 86

    Mark spews:

    GBS & Heath,

    I have to disagree with you about TaeKwonDo. As with any martial art, it depends on the school and the instructor(s). A person who only studies forms, Olympic sparring and/or board breaking will have a different knowledge- and skillset than someone who adds in practical self-defense and weapons.

    Any good martial art should be teaching you awareness of yourself and your surroundings. You may also gain flexibility, confidence, strength and a better ability to size up threatening circumstances. A good martial art will also teach you when the best option is NOT to fight.

    It sounds to me like CG’s friend @ 37 was doing some showing off. Throwing a spinning kick gives an opponent that is expecting an attack extra time to react. I would imagine she wasn’t throwing combinations, either.

    IF, IF, IF you decide to engage an opponent (preferably not one with a gun), you must be prepared to go in, go big, do maximum damage and then get the heck out. It ain’t the movies with five minute Jackie Chan choreographed routines.

    If you want to learn martial arts for protection, make sure you seek out a school that includes practical self-defense in addition to the sport.

  78. 87

    Puddybud spews:

    For you windie. Pay attention to the last line.

    A man and a woman, who have never met before, both married to other people, found themselves assigned to the same sleeping room on a transcontinental train.

    Though initially embarrassed and uneasy over sharing a room,
    they were both very tired and fell asleep quickly… he in the upper bunk and she in the lower.

    At 1:00 AM, the man leaned over and gently woke the woman saying, “Ma’am, I’m sorry to bother you, but would you be willing to reach into the closet to get me a second blanket? I’m awfully cold.”

    “I have a better idea,” she replied. “Just for tonight, let’s pretend that we’re married.”

    “Wow! That’s a great idea!” he exclaimed.

    “Good,” she replied. “Get your own f—ing blanket!”

    After a moment of silence, he farted.

  79. 88

    Chuck spews:

    I agree, we all turn in our guns for the greater good…if you are a criminal…go ahead come over to my house…make my day!

  80. 89

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “RR, what happens if that shot Tacoma mall guy dies from his injuries after Maldonaldo is sentenced? Will the sentence automatically get longer?”

    No, but the state could retry him for murder, which isn’t double jeopardy because murder is a different crime than assault, despite the fact the second trial arose from the same incident. Diaz v. U S, 223 U.S. 442, 32 S.Ct. 250, 56 L.Ed. 500 (1912). http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/.....;invol=442

  81. 90

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    That soft-on-crime rap doesn’t stick anymore, Puddybutt! Democrats aren’t soft on crime. Our state has the death penalty, 500+ inmates doing life without parole, a three-strikes law, and was the first state to confine sex predators who have completed their prison sentences.

  82. 91

    Puddybud spews:

    RR, you are addressing only one argument and it’s aspect. I am talking about the “progressive” thought of illegal gun removal from law abiding US citizens. We already have the Australia experience on how knee-jerk laws from “progressives” cause death and destruction. That’s what I am addressing and I am so surprised the multi-lettered on missed this argument.

  83. 92

    Puddybud spews:

    Man my “e” key is sticking. Too much eating and tying. That should read …the multi-lettered one missed…

  84. 93

    christmasghost spews:

    um roger…..just when was the last time YOUR state actually used the death penalty?
    what a joke………..

  85. 94

    Puddybud spews:

    RR – You ignored my post #85 on purpose because you know I’m right. The judges elected by moonbats create the climate where everyone shakes their head as asks why.

    I remember the judge who let off the Joseph P. Smith earlier, Judge Harry Rapkin. Her convicted killer, Joseph P. Smith, had been arrested at least 13 times since 1993. He was convicted of such crimes as aggravated battery and drug possession, but Florida judge Harry Rapkin twice declined to imprison him for violating the terms of his probation. Why did he decline to do the right thing RR? Is it because he’s a “progressive moonbat” judge RR? Did you see him go on TV and rail against Bill O’Reilly, well he is not a judge anymore. Here is the transcript.

    “But when Bill O’Reilly dispatched a camera crew to confront Rapkin outside his home, the judge was most vehement in his condemnation of… Bill O’Reilly. “O’Reilly’s a piece of scum,” Rapkin told the reporter, then went on at some length on why O’Reilly was unfit for polite company.”

    So RR, why did Carlie Bruscia have to pay for Rapkin’s “progressive” lawyering decision on Joseph P. Smith? The Prosecution Rests

  86. 96

    Chuck spews:

    The problem Goldy was if I can borrow an already used line…when you have to talk…talk, when you need to shoot, shoot..remember this Goldy…you arent Clint Eastwood… without real firepower you will not survive

  87. 98

    GBS spews:

    Mark @ 87

    You are 100% correct. My art, Shou Shu, was taught strictly as an on the street, real life situation self defense art and never for “sport.” We did not participate in matches against other schools. The first and best line of defense is NOT to mix it up with any one. The best thing to learn is how to size up a situation and determine if you can walk away. If you can, then walk away. If you can’t, then what are you best options after that.

    To give you an idea of how train, here’s one of the very first lessons you learn in Shou Shu. The move is called “Shaking Crane.”

    “Shaking” because it’s predicated on a situation where you and another person have had “words” and they want to use the old let’s “shake hands” and let by gone’s be by gone’s, when in reality they want to grab your hand and sucker punch you. “Crane” because the fighting style is based on the bird known as the crane, because one things cranes do, being birds, is fly. The moves go like this:

    Aggressor shakes hands, tightens their grips and “telegraphs” the sucker punch.

    Defender senses the hand squeeze and sees the left shoulder start to move (telegraph), with a quick rearward jerk of your right hand then stepping back with your right foot and turning 90 degrees you’ve fully extended the attackers right arm. Now your feet in the classic fighting horse stance you use an upward open palm strike with your left hand to the bottom of your attackers right elbow, hopefully breaking or hyper extending the elbow.

    Keeping an extra firm grip on the attackers right hand you fire your right foot off the ground and use your right knee to strike the lower right ribs (the floaters), you’ll actually be slightly off the ground for this strike (hence a crane flying). This strike will cause the attacker who was coming forward on the arm pull to start going backward, as you land your right hand still holding the attackers hand. You roll your right hand up above your head with your palm facing away from you. This exposes the attacker’s rib cage that just got a knee. In the same circular movement your left hand delivers a reverse punch into the ribs, followed by letting go with the right hand and landing another reverse punch into the same spot the rib cage, hopefully breaking the bottom two floating ribs.

    At this point your attacker will be facing slightly to your right, so to finish off you’d grab the attacker’s hair with your left hand, pull straight back then downward sharply to create a spinal lockout. As this is occurring you pick up your left foot and stomp down on the top of the attacker’s right calf. This combination of the spinal lock and puling straight down with your left hand combined with the left foot stomp on their right calf will cause them to fall on to their back.

    As the attacker hits the ground you spin slightly to your left and drop your right knee squarely on their breast plate. Hopefully, the force of your knee on their breast plate will compress the attackers heart between the spine and breast plate causing a bruised heart or a “popping” of the heart like a balloon.

    When you’re knee lands on the chest it will cause their head to pop up off the ground. As their head is popping up you use a side fist, right hand, into their nose. The effect of their head popping up and then getting a side fist may cause the cartilage and nasal bone to penetrate the brain. For sure the back of their head will slam the pavement again — really, really hard.

    At this point, do two cover out moves to distance your self from the assailant while covering for any other possible attacks. Then do what is know as the “Shou Shu Shuffle” i.e. run like hell.

    Now, that’s a pretty complex move that we teach to white belts. Would it be 100% effective like ChristmasGhost’s friend. Maybe, maybe not. But, like anything else the more you practice, the better your skills become the more likely it will work for you.

    As good as I am, if I told you I was going to throw a roundhouse with my right leg, you’d have a great chance of stopping it. Besides, like you said, the streets aren’t like the movies and no one who is adequately trained in the martial arts is going to open with a spinning kick move or a roundhouse kick. Talk about a telegraph!!

  88. 99

    sgtmac_46 spews:

    Ok, just to wade through the leftist BS spouted about gun control, lets deal with a few myths.

    First, the oft quoted ‘Owning a gun makes you more likely to be shot by one’ is a lie built on a distortion. Half of the murder rate in the US is committed by 3% of the population, urban black males between 17 and 50, and likewise, their victims are also black males between the ages of 17 and 50. Where the left-wing-nuts get the ‘you are more likely to be killed if you have a gun’ “statistic” is based on the fact that shooters and shootees of the above black males are, in fact, involved in the drug trade, and the shootings are a violent by-product of that drug trade. As both groups are armed, hence the distorted statistic that YOU are more likely to be murdered by a gun if YOU have a gun.

    Now, that doesn’t really apply to the average American (unless you are a black male drug dealer in the inner city between the ages of 17 and 50.) The assertion that this applies to the average american is an outright lie.

    Second, the violent crime rate and murder rate has been falling dramatically since 1990. The US murder rate and violent crime rate is down to levels not seen since the 1960’s. With ever increasing legal ownership of guns,AND, ever increasing ‘right to carry’ states, if we follow the gun confiscationists arguments, we should be having MORE crime, not less. But less is what we have.

    Contrast this is the United Kingdom, who absolished virtually ALL private ownership of firearms in 1995. Since then, the UK has seen a rise in ALL crime, including violent crime. The violent crime rate of the US (dropping, even despite innercity violence) is converging with that ‘gun control paradise) the UK. Scotland, in fact, was declared by the World Health Organization, the MOST VIOLENT INDUSTRIALIZED NATION IN THE WORLD. (so much for the asinine assertion that that dubious honor belongs to the US).

    Finally, an example of the usefullness of gun control. In 1977, Washington DC banned virtually ALL private ownership of firearms. The result? 400% INCREASE in violent crime. The most violent sections of the US are also the most restrictive in terms of private possession of firearms. The most peaceful? Generally have the most lax laws governoring firearms.

    Vermont, for example, allows concealed carry by every law abiding adult, without a permit. They are #47 in violence. The states that grant concealed carry permits are among the LOWEST in terms of violence. After they passed concealed carry laws, ALL crime, including violent crime, CONTINUED to drop.

    Everywhere, leftist gungrabbers are forced to grab on to old, outdated and distorted statistics to support their confiscatory wet dreams. Everywhere reality sets in, they are angrily disappointed. I expect angry replies to this little nugget of reality. Rave, fruitcakes, rave.