Learning from our neighbors to the South

So what happens to Washington state’s farmland if I-933 (the developer’s initiative) passes? The same thing that’s happening in Oregon since Measure 37 passed there. From the classified ads of the Capital Press, which bills itself as “The West’s Agriculture Website”:

Business Opportunities
DEVELOPERS! Private corporation for sale which owns 50.8 acres of farmland, eligible for rezoning under measure 37. Near Arrowhead Golf Course, Clackamas County, OR. Fax 503-295-4023.

That’s what I-933 is about. That’s what it has always been about. Unregulated, out of control development.

Comments

  1. 1

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    If the Rons of the world had their way, every last tree would be cut down, every stream would be polluted, every wetland would be drained, and every critical habitat would be turned into a subdivision. No thanks! We bunnies need suitable green space in order to multiply as Nature intended us to do.

    Commentby Roger Rabbit— 7/2/06@ 10:13 am

    WTF Pellet Breath? You are projecting your causes from bitch-slapped libruls onto Ron. If he could not build on his land, it’s his problem? The issue I have with libruls is you think guvmint knows best. That’s not what the founding fathers were thinking about! DumbASS!

  2. 2

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeaKennedy is my vote. You haven’t raped a girl, then used a golf club on her to kill her, drowned a woman in a car, bitched slapped a woman yet to be anything else.

  3. 4

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    19

    “Notice that MTR didn’t actually SAY what he did to get his alleged money. This raises two questions:
    1) Where did this much-bragged-about money come from?
    2) How did MTR display his intellect and moral character to earn it?
    3) Is MTR’s conception of ‘intellect’ and ‘moral character’ the same as normal people, or are these code words for sociopathic behavior?

    Any thoughts?” Commentby Green Thumb— 7/1/06@ 2:53 pm

    Mark has never said what he does for a living. He claims to have four degrees, but that may mean nothing more than he send four $50 checks to a mail-order degree mill, for all we know. He sure doesn’t know much about economics, or statistics either.

    You asked where the “moral character” terminology came from, and whether it’s code words. It certainly is:

    “CHEAP-LABOR CONSERVATIVES constantly bray about ‘morality’, ‘virtue’, ‘respect for authority’, ‘hard work’ and other ‘values’. Why. So they can blame your being ‘over a barrel’ on your own ‘immorality’, lack of ‘values’ and ‘poor choices’.”

    http://www.conceptualguerilla......php?id=103

    There. Does that sound like anyone you know? You didn’t really think Mark dreamed up this stuff himself, did you? Of course not, he copies and pastes it from rightwing talking-points web sites. Mark is a drone incapable of having an original thought.

  4. 6

    Ron spews:

    I own property in Oregon, 28 acres, I actually lived on it in a mobile home attached to a well, electrical service and a septic in the 1970’s. My job moved me to New Jersey. I rented to mobil ehome for a while but it was a hassle. So I removed it. During my time a way the state of Oregon and Marion County chnaged the zoning on my propoerty farm use only. When I returned three years later and wanted ot restablish the residence there they would not let me because of the zone change. I waited patiently until Measure 37 came along to be able to build on my 28 acres of non prime farm land. The government stole my property and thank goodness for Measure 37. Wake up! The government was stealing peoples property for the benefit of the 1000 friend of Oregon at my expense. I will probably divide and sell my porperty now becasue I am so pissed at what they did to me and my family. Wake up people the government could care less about you!! Special interests need to have their hand taken out of our pockets. Pass a similar measure in Washington to protect whatis rightfully yours. Wake up Goldie will steal from you and your family. This measure is a good measure because it makes the government a good citizen. If you want to use my property you gotta pay for that right.

  5. 7

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    I will probably divide and sell my porperty now becasue I am so pissed at what they did to me and my family.

    Ah, the rant of the faux victim. I just wanted to build a house, but now, I’ll show those bastards. In other words, the owners of neighboring properties. That what the code word government represents.

    Measure 37 claims are by people who are trying to make money off of the land they own, not live on it.

    Maybe you’re happy with modern Oregon where major political decisions are by reactionary mob rule, but we’ve had enough of BIAW in Washington.

  6. 8

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    And as for socialism, don’t be afraid of the word. We aren’t communists here and

    Commentby skagit [“communism isn’t socialism.” Close enough. Ask Roger Rabbit and Green Thumb about “redistribution of wealth” and “property rights”. Right out of Marx.]

  7. 9

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    Well, RPK, we’ve answered your challenge. Where’s your model? Hmmmmmm?

    Commentby skagit [“The government that governs least, governs best.] T. Jefferson [No realtive to William “Icebox” Jefferson, DEMOCRAT, LA]

  8. 10

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    JCH or whatever the fuck your name is:

    Commentby jsa on commercial drive [JSA, I am one of the HorsesAss.ORG troll Kennedys. RUFUS, Mark The Redneck, Dan Rather, and Pud are the current members. As Kennedys, we do as we wish, and you dumb ass Democrats STFU and vote for us every election. Ironic? YES!! All can see the irony. We are making fun of the “Royal” Democrat Kennedys, who we consider scum. That is why we have added “Kennedy” to our names. NOW DO YOU GET IT?]

  9. 11

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    62, cont……..Remember when Pat Kennedy “bitch slapped” the female black security guard at the LAX airport? Kind of like Cindi Mckinney, but a few years ago? That is why I’m REP Pat “Bitchslap” Kennedy, DEMOCRAT, RI. As a Kennedy, we get away with ANYTHING, and the dumb ass liberal Democrats vote for us in EVERY election. I hope this explanation helps. JCH Kennedy

  10. 12

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    58….cont, Friedman’s “Free To Choose” is also a must read. This little old Jewish man [and his wife Rose] is a genius. Wade through these, and we will discuss. Thank you for an honest question.

  11. 13

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    jsa on commercial drive, My model? read Milton Friedman’s “Capitalism And Freedom” and Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”. “Animal Farm” is also a guide to the evils of liberal Democrats. These well written books on economics, freedom, individualism, and capitalism are my guide to social and political review. . [BTW, the libs hate these books as they expose the failures and evils of “progressive” Democrats]

  12. 14

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    43

    “I guess if you hit a few of the Ten Commandments it’s good enough.” Commentby K— 7/1/06@ 6:18 pm

    Apparently the Seventh wasn’t one of them.

    F I V E H U N D R E D T H O U S A N D D O L L A R S

    har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har har

  13. 16

    jsa on commercial drive spews:

    JCH or whatever the fuck your name is:

    Small l liberal democracies work in most of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, the more civilized bits of Asia, etc. etc.

    I do not advocate soc-yi-al-ism, state ownership of manufacturing enterprises, etc. That’s been tried, and it doesn’t fly. The only way state-owned enterprises ever work is under the discipline of an open and competetive market (see Taiwan and Singapore for examples). Even then, the record is somewhat mixed.

    Now, I asked a serious question, and I expect a serious answer, although it probably won’t come from your sunstroke-baked head. Where is the model? What are you trying to shape the country into?

  14. 17

    skagit spews:

    Aren’t you asking him for the conservative model? And as for socialism, don’t be afraid of the word. We aren’t communists here and communism isn’t socialism. A model that incorporates both socialism and capitalism similar to those European and Canadian models is probably best. They work . . . always some problems.

    Well, RPK, we’ve answered your challenge. Where’s your model? Hmmmmmm?

  15. 18

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    It’s not conservatism vs socialism/communism… it’s CAPITALISM vs socialism/communism, you morons.

    Why is it the only ones that ever complain about capitalism are lifes failures?

    Capitalism has delivered hitherto-unimaginable advances in living standards across the developed world. And this is not just measured in dollars and cents. Broader social progress has been made too, again at historically unprecedented rates. Life expectancy, infant mortality, access to health care and education — regardless of which of these measures you take, capitalism has achieved stunning results.

    The 20th century even went to the trouble of testing the alternative — socialism — to memorable effect. So it is hardly as if some better economic paradigm is out there waiting to be tried. The one we have has succeeded, in every way, beyond all plausible expectations. Its only rival was a correspondingly egregious failure, ethically and in material terms as well.

    …you might think that capitalism would still be recognized — more than it is, at least — as the poor’s best hope, rather than as the system that holds them back. Poverty is retreating faster than ever before in many developing countries. You can’t help but notice that the countries that are opening themselves up to trade and foreign investment — in effect, to global capitalism — are advancing the fastest. China is the most conspicuous example. Is capitalism holding China back, keeping its people in poverty? Obviously, just the opposite.

    After all, that capitalism works as well as it does is, in principle, utterly implausible. How can a fathomlessly complicated system of voluntary exchange, without collective deliberation, with nobody in charge, steered by nobody’s good intentions — a kind of anarchy — yield social advance, as if by accident? The notion seems ridiculous. … Good intentions are not required for market forces to produce socially good results. Enlightened self-interest suffices.

  16. 19

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    Nice try jsa – but governments don’t create companies.. people do.

    We sell to quite a few in the Canadian market… why do you suppose they are all ‘chomping at the bit’ to have their companies break into the AMERICAN marketplace?

    We have a great pal who owns landfills, mushroom farms, rose farms and truck manufacturing facilities in Eastern Canada… why do you suppose he works tirelessly to woo American buyers?

    Why do you suppose he bought his 2nd and 3rd homes here in the the States?

    Why do you suppose he makes his financial investments here in the States?

    Why do suppose he sends his kids to college here in the states?

    We know Canadian businessmen that BEG to be employed by American firms… why do you suppose that is?

  17. 20

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    39

    It’s not hard to find examples of how “free enterprise” works in America. Basically it works like this:

    1. I will set up my factory in the state that pays me the biggest incentives at taxpayer expense.
    2. I will go where business taxes are lowest, so that somebody else is paying for the infrastructure my business needs.
    3. If the state doesn’t train my workers and subsidize their wages, I will close my factory and move it to Mexico.

    Yours truly, Atlas

  18. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    33

    In Switzerland, every able-bodied male is a reservist, and is required by law to keep a weapon in his home.

  19. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    30

    “Take another hand full of meth.” Commentby REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX]— 7/1/06@ 4:44 pm

    Y’know, this might explain how JCH (John Craig Herman) retired to Hawaii at age 49. He seems to be pretty far out in the woods there. 20 miles from the nearest town. Wonder what he’s cooking back in the woods … ?

  20. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    32

    Mosquitoes are stupid, and they’ve lasted a lot longer than humans are likely to.

  21. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    22

    I don’t have any problem with this, but I think electricity should be rationed. You get X kilowatts per month, and if you use up your allotment in the first five days of the month, buy some fucking candles.

  22. 26

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    25

    craig — you should make it clear that’s a special rule just for you. It doesn’t apply to anyone else.

  23. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    29

    er — we thought you retired at age 49 and DON’T WORK? You’re living off the fat of the land, as it were?

  24. 28

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS, Outstanding posts. Would you consider adding the name “Kennedy” to your post name? We would be proud to count you as a HorsesAss.ORG Republican troll.

  25. 29

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    Don’t deliberate any more… finally be an honest liberal and stay the hell in Canada…

    It’s oh so easy for you to pontificate the glories oh socialized canada when you EARN US DOLLARS, WHEN YOU CAN COME BACK TO A RATIONAL COUNTRY FOR QUALITY HEALTH CARE… but I’d be willing to be you are too damned much of a coward to become a Canadian citizen.

  26. 30

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    “You have no property rights, except those the sovereign sees fit to give you.” [Roger Rabbit] [………………………………………………………….Well, there you have it! The basic difference between Republicans and social liberal “progressive” Democrats.]

  27. 32

    K spews:

    I always enjoy MTR touting his superior morality. From a guy who believes it is OK to lie to advance your personal agenda (see previous posts on Eyman). And they criticize the left and situational ethics.

    I guess if you hit a few of the Ten Commandments it’s good enough.

  28. 33

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    RICHMOND, California – The ashes of executed Crips gang co-founder Stanley “Tookie” Williams were spread in a lake in South Africa in accordance with his will, a friend said. Barbara Becnel, who co-authored children’s books with Williams and witnessed his execution, said in a statement Friday that she and Williams’ longtime friend Shirley Neal sprinkled the ashes into the lake Sunday in Thokoza Park in the city of Soweto, as Williams had requested.

    [So … I assume the four people he murdered got their last wishes, too? Classic Democrat bull shit. “Tookie” the hero of liberal Democrats!! Remember, It was JCH Kennedy who coined the term “Tookie Williams” sex as a referral to homo Democrat anal “HIV positive” sex. All who use this term understand that to be “Tookied” is a Democrat homo right of passage.]

  29. 34

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    Once again the wingnuts advance the nakedly greedy agenda of the rich in the name of “freedom”. RR is right. It’s all about setting the rules and who gets what.

    A conservative or libertarian who tells you different is a liar, a cheat, a sychophant, an idiot, or a fool.

  30. 35

    jsa on commercial drive spews:

    Ass,

    Congratulations on being married for 27 years. Hopefully the person who writes your material is more pleasant than the caricature that appears here in print.

    Maybe that person would like to come out and have an honest debate.

    Otherwise, I’ll have to send condolences to your wife, and end it here.

    I work with two-dimensional cartoon characters all week. I have no need to blow my long weekend doing the same.

  31. 36

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    Commentby TommmyDeLaaaaaaiiiiiiiid— 7/1/06@ 4:26 pm

    Looks like your prayer of SCOTUS overturning his redistricting plan went out the window. Keep up the good work!

  32. 37

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    Private Property Rights

    A third fatal defect of socialism is its blatant disregard for the role of private property rights in creating incentives that foster economic growth and development. The failure of socialism around the world is a “tragedy of commons” on a global scale.

    The “tragedy of the commons” refers to the British experience of the sixteenth century when certain grazing lands were communally owned by villages and were made available for public use. The land was quickly overgrazed and eventually became worthless as villagers exploited the communally owned resource.

    When assets are publicly owned, there are no incentives in place to encourage wise stewardship. While private property creates incentives for conservation and the responsible use of property, public property encourages irresponsibility and waste. If everyone owns an asset, people act as if no one owns it. And when no one owns it, no one really takes care of it. Public ownership encourages neglect and mismanagement.

    Since socialism, by definition, is a system marked by the “common ownership of the means of production,” the failure of socialism is a “tragedy of the commons” on a national scale. Much of the economic stagnation of socialism can be traced to the failure to establish and promote private property rights.

    As Peruvian economist Hernando de Soto remarked, you can travel in rural communities around the world and you will hear dogs barking, because even dogs understand property rights. It is only statist governments that have failed to understand property rights. Socialist countries are just now starting to recognize the importance of private property as they privatize assets and property in Eastern Europe.

  33. 38

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:


    Macroeconomics for Dummies

    Economic socialism, in all its forms, has failed – every single time it has been tried. There are absolutely zero historical exceptions. The largest experiment in socialism (the communist government of the Soviet Union) imploded under the weight of its own failed economy. Even the tiny experiments (the socialist communes of the 60s) have largely been abandoned. North Korea is economically imploding as we speak, they have a per capata average yearly income of less than $800. (And by the way, North Korea is almost identical in almost every way except governmental-economic form to their neighbor to the south, which is a thriving, almost western country.) China is moving toward market capitalism as fast as it can to avoid the same fate. The concept of “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs”, the concept of government redistribution of wealth and resources based on some more “noble” set of criteria, is fatally flawed.

    Socialism, if clung to till the last, has always resulted in total bankruptcy. Always. Despite socialist’s best intentions, eventually, there is no wealth left to redistribute. And yet, experiments in Socialism continue. There seems to be a continuing belief that “this time” will be different. Undeterred by the fact that one cannot find a single historical success to pattern a new experiment in “sharing” and “fairness” by, we have another go at it. We take from those who have “too much” and give to those who have “too little”. And again, if unchecked, there will eventually be nothing to take and nothing to give. The well meaning among us are left wondering who is to blame and wondering why their noble attempt failed again.

  34. 41

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    82

    “There’s no honor in denigrating yourself.” Commentby howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS— 7/2/06@ 12:32 am

    That doesn’t impede people without honor from denigrating themselves.

  35. 42

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    I live with myself just fine, thanks.

    I don’t follow the liberal rule of self immolation.

    There’s no honor in denigrating yourself.

    Here’s a thought: love yourself first then maybe you’ll get lucky enough to be loved by others!… and feel free to congratulate me: I celebrate 27 years of marriage this week.

  36. 43

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Rabbit @ 44 – My employer is engaged in a very large offshore outsourcing project. My job is to make sure international suppliers are successful.

  37. 44

    Green Thumb spews:

    Perhaps you might wish to go back and read a month’s worth of Ass’s commentary.

  38. 45

    skagit spews:

    RPK:
    “jsa on commercial drive, My model? read Milton Friedman’s “Capitalism And Freedom” and Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”. “Animal Farm” is also a guide to the evils of liberal Democrats. ”

    It is a book, RPK. We asked for a model. DODGE AND DUCK.

    “Friedman’s “Free To Choose” is also a must read. This little old Jewish man [and his wife Rose] is a genius. Wade through these, and we will discuss. Thank you for an honest question.”

    Another book, RPK. We asked for a model. DODGE AND DUCK YOU DICK.

    “”communism isn’t socialism.” Close enough.”
    I REPEAT IN UPPER CASE SO THAT THIS TIME YOU GET IT. COMMUNISM IS NOT SOCIALISM. IS THAT BETTER?

    “”The government that governs least, governs best.] T. Jefferson ”
    Since Mr. Jefferson isn’t around to have conversations with you, I’m guessing you got these words out of another BOOK. You have convinced me you like to read. NOW, ANSWER THE QUESTION PLEASE. NAME THE MODEL.

    I know one thing for sure about you: you are in excellent physical condition. Constant dodging and ducking keeps one healthy if not wise.

    JSA:
    I didn’t know that Goldy has blacklisted it. I say it with pride because just because conservatives abuse the word (they obviously don’t know its meaning) doesn’t invalidate the word. I’m sorry he gives them so much power.

    Also, interesting your remarks about Canada. I know you have your own problems up there. But, I think you are a more civil society currently than we.

    Also, am curious . . . I’m an advocate for smaller is better anyway. Smaller companies . . . more competition . . . higher employment. . . more deference to employees . . . closer to market? What do you think? Maybe never as rich but isn’t that a good thing?

  39. 46

    jsa on commercial drive spews:

    Kevin:

    Uhhhhh. Let me take a guess. Canada: 30m potential customers. USA: 300m potential customers. Yeah. That extra zero makes a difference.

    First, if governments don’t create jobs, companies do, your job is done. Go home, fuck off, and leave us alone. Politics doesn’t matter. Go create something valuable instead of wasting time here. I do this for recreation. This is your job. What does that say about us respectively?

    Why someone from Eastern Canada would want to go to the US is their problem. Lots of people do. We also have a bunch of returnees in our office who did their time in the US and came up to Canada now that they’re senior enough to make proper wages. I know more than a few dual citizens who could live on either side of the border but choose to live up North. They’re in Calgary. I think they’re fucking nuts too, but they make bank, so they stay.

    You know, it’s really boring just arguing with one of you. Worse because you’re not very good at it.

  40. 47

    jsa on commercial drive spews:

    p.s. Skagit. There’s no “you”. I am an American working in Canada. I have a house on Beacon Hill in Seattle, and an apartment on Commercial Drive in Vancouver. I am deliberating which side of the border I’ll finally end up on. It’s not a simple answer.

    I’ll discuss this further another day. It’s bedtime here. Night all.

  41. 48

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    how about…
    howcanyoubePROUDtobeaKennedy?
    or
    howcanyoubePROUDtobeaKenddedyASS?
    or
    howcanKennedybePROUDtobeanASS?
    or
    howcanyoubePROUDthatKennedyISanASS

    let’s vote, shall we?

  42. 49

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    71,howcanyoubePROUDtobeaKennedy?, Pick one. Your posts on private property and capitalism were outstanding. Have a great holiday. Best regards, JCH Kennedy

  43. 50

    jsa on commercial drive spews:

    Kevin Carns @ 58:

    I read Friedman, Animal Farm, and Atlas Shrugged. The last one made me insufferable to be around for about a year. I got over it. You never did. Your answer is telling. People who write books are smart, while people who run actual countries are so stoopid. 30 years ago you would have been one of those idiots with a goatee and beret saying “Yeah, man. Communism is awesome. Karl Marx had it right. Like, the only problem is that it’s never been implemented correctly.”

    Alas, the “useful idiots” these days are not leftists hanging out in coffee shops polluting the air with Gauloise smoke. They are Republicans, they are on the blogs and on talk radio, they’re smoke-free, and boy are they annoying as ever.

    Skagit, for a while, HA blacklisted the word “socialist” because JCH used it in every post. I think Goldy removed it from the blacklist or something.

    I spend most of my time up in Vancouver (hence the tagline), so I know the Canadian model pretty well. Like a lot of things, it has advantages and disadvantages. Canada has been successful at creating a lot of small and medium-sized companies. Due to a combination of the tax structure and financial capital markets in Canada, large companies have never done so well. I’ve generally made my money consulting for large companies, so my opinion on this subject is biased.

  44. 51

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    If the Rons of the world had their way, every last tree would be cut down, every stream would be polluted, every wetland would be drained, and every critical habitat would be turned into a subdivision. No thanks! We bunnies need suitable green space in order to multiply as Nature intended us to do.

  45. 52

    Daddy Love spews:

    The government stole my property…

    Yeah skag, keeping your greedy fucking hands out of my wallet. If you want what I’ve got, do what I do. If you lack the intellect or moral character to do that, then tough shit. Get it?

    You gotta wonder what part of representative democracy these guys never understood. Land use is part of the social contract, not an intrinsic human right.

  46. 54

    Jimbo spews:

    First Goldy why don’t you try reading 933 you will see its much different than 37. It is about property owners that are tired of Gang Greeners taking away thier rights and property. 933 turns the clock back to 1996, after the GMA, after rural zoning and after the SAO. And stop the Developers Initiative crap. Who wrote a breif on King Counties and Futerwises behalf in the CAO lawsuit? King/Sno Master Builders.

  47. 55

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    No growth equals no tax revenue. Suck on that, libs! Those of you [RR] who rely on “guvment” checks to survive may find out the true meaning of “Atlas Shrugged”.

  48. 56

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    waaa! waaa! waaa! What a bunch of fucking crybabies!

    You have no property rights, except those the sovereign sees fit to give you. In America, the “sovereign” consists of the federal and state governments, and local governments (e.g., counties, cities, and towns) by delegation of authority from state governments.

    This rightwing notion that people have some sort of property rights independent of government, absolute in nature, is pure horseshit. All of human history is about Group A pushing Group B off land Group A wants to occupy. Land was “owned” by whoever had the strongest army at the time, and this kind of “ownership” was subject to change whenever somebody with a stronger army came along.

    So it is in America. This was all aboriginal land “owned” by Native Americans. Then Europeans showed up and expropriated it in the name of various kings, who sometimes fought over rival claims (e.g., French and Indian War). Then the American colonists rebelled from British rule and evicted the British troops and their mercenaries, and established the 13 independent colonies, then a confederation, then the United States. Then the northern and southern states fought over whether America would have one government, or two. And so on.

    Your “property rights” aren’t worth the paper they’re written on, except to the extent our courts recognize and protect your claim of title, and sheriffs and police remove squatters or trespassers and enforce your “property rights,” and the U.S. military prevents foreign invaders from pushing you off the land so they can occupy it. In addition, the sovereign (i.e., government) levies taxes on your land, and if you don’t pay the taxes, they take the land and the sheriff throws you off it.

    From all of this, it follows that rightwing arguments that government has no right to regulate what people do with their land, or have to pay property “owners” to restrict what they can do with their land, is pure unadulterated horseshit. In America, the people are sovereign and choose their government by electing representatives who enact laws reflecting the public will. So long as those laws are constitutional, they can limit and regulate what you can do with your property, and the government doesn’t have to pay you for the privilege of doing so. You should be thankful to the government that creates your property rights, protects and enforces your occupancy, and defends you against invaders. You should kiss the government’s ass in gratitude.

  49. 57

    a home on wheels! spews:

    Ron-
    Mobile homes – loved by tornados, embraced by C.O.P.S.

    Now you’re an out-of-state developer who wants to turn and burn…creating more traffic and noise for all of your neighbors. Thanks much pal.

  50. 58

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    4.

    I’ve seen all the McMansions I care to. Conserving or improving the ecosystem should be the focus of property tax law. The state should impose a carbon tax on property development.

  51. 59

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    4

    A news story on KING 5’s web site today says Washington’s population has grown to 6.4 million and King County has gained over 98,000 new residents in the last 10 years, half of them from California.

    Seattle neighborhoods are now beginning to see a phenomenon that has been going on in the Northeast for years: Builders buy small, old houses; tear them down; and put up big, expensive, new homes. Many of which will be occupied by singles, couples, or small families.

    What nobody seems to be asking is, if everybody decides to live in three times as much space as their parents did, where the hell is the electricity and natural gas to light and heat these larger homes going to come from? We haven’t got it, and we can’t get it, but nobody seems to be thinking about that — least of all the developers who are throwing up these McMansions.

    You think energy bills are bad now. Just wait until King County’s population doubles, and all of Seattle’s 1,200 square foot houses have been replaced by 3,000 square foot houses. We’ll have to buy electricity from dams in South America, and it will cost a bloody fortune.

    And the people going out on a financial limb to buy these homes for $600,000 to $1 million or more don’t have a clue how they’re going to make their payments when the interest rate doubles on their adjustable rate mortgage, much less how they’re going to pay for heat and electricity when utility bills double or triple again.

  52. 61

    skagit spews:

    And it is possible that with the price of energy going through the roof, we might just see a boom in agri-business coming back to our fertile valleys . . . many of which, unfortunately, are in already-overdeveloped western Washington. Have some vision people! Think only about the here-and-now and “how much money can I make” and we’ll have a continent that looks like Easter Island in time.

    But, nobody has ever accused conservatives of thinking ahead . . .

    Republican platform: http://www.wsrp.org/About/Defa.....ctionID=81

    • Reducing taxes and fees on businesses and individuals.
    • Eliminating the B&O tax.
    • Reducing excessive regulation on businesses in Washington State.
    • Examining government regulations to ensure they reflect the intent of the law and are based on sound peer-reviewed scientific data.
    • Expanding international export trade while protecting national security.
    • Making the Bush tax cuts permanent.
    • Eliminating all inheritance and capital gains taxes because savings and property have already been taxed.
    • Re-instating tax and spending limitations passed by the voters of Washington State (I-601) which were repealed in 2005.
    • Reforming the current Washington State minimum wage law to make Washington businesses more competitive.
    • Maintaining a supermajority requirement for excess levies and bonds.
    • Opposing any form of a state income tax.

    Notice the theme here . . .

  53. 62

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Yeah skag, keeping your greedy fucking hands out of my wallet.

    If you want what I’ve got, do what I do. If you lack the intellect or moral character to do that, then tough shit.

    Get it?

  54. 63

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    I’ll have to buy a car, refrigerator, washer and dryer, cooktop and oven in the next few years. Energy efficiency has risen to the top of my list of features these big-ticket need to have.

    My 80 y.o. house is going to have all the things done to it the energy audit calls for. Most of the windows have been done, the top floor now meets current insullation codes, there’s lots of improvements going on here, but none create more space.

    It’s time for the young punks to follow my example. Want a SUV, fine, but it better get 30 MPG, because my next car will.

  55. 64

    For the Clueless spews:

    Hey Wingnuts:

    Sorry.

    However, keep lovin’ Bush and his lapdogs in Congress. You’re good at it.

    You’ll never understand that it’s only natural to dislike the worst.preznit.ever.

  56. 65

    LeftTurn spews:

    All you have to know about the Developer’s Initiative are two things…

    1) Timmy Lieman is involved
    2) The BIAW is involved

    That means it’s bad for Washington. Case closed

  57. 66

    Dave Reichert spews:

    This is too fucking funny. THIS is how to deal with these trators!
    Some Democratic candidates, particularly in the South, are reluctant to oppose a constitutional amendment on flag burning for fear of being called unpatriotic. Then again, when you’re a Marine who’s won the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts, the charges apparently don’t worry you too much, especially when your opponent never wore a uniform.

    Republican Sen. George Allen attacked his Democratic challenger’s opposition to a flag-burning amendment, and James Webb retaliated by calling Allen a coward who sat out the Vietnam War “playing cowboy at a dude ranch in Nevada.”

    The statement by a senior adviser to Webb, a decorated veteran and former secretary of the Navy, went to extraordinary lengths to question Allen’s fortitude, even repeatedly using the middle name the senator detests and never uses, Felix.

    “While Jim Webb and others of George Felix Allen Jr.’s generation were fighting for our freedoms and for our symbols of freedom in Vietnam, George Felix Allen Jr. was playing cowboy at a dude ranch in Nevada,” said Webb strategist Steve Jarding in the statement Tuesday.

    While Allen’s campaign denied having questioned Webb’s patriotism, Jarding insisted, “People who live in glass dude ranches should not question the patriotism of real soldiers who fought and bled for this country on a real battlefield.”

    Note to Allen: now would probably be a good time to stop using the flag as a campaign issue.

  58. 68

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    Energy’s Highest Price

    If you could make something a higher priority in fighting the war on terror, what would it be? A little more than one third of the more than 100 national security experts Foreign Policy magazine asked in creating its foreign policy index said killing or capturing terrorist leaders such as Osama bin Laden. About the same number favored promoting democracy in the Muslim world. More than two thirds said stopping the proliferation of nuclear weapons to rogue states.

    The index’s experts said that ending America’s dependence on foreign oil may be the U.S. government’s single most pressing priority in winning the war on terror. Eighty-two percent of the experts said that policymakers should make ending America’s dependence on foreign oil a higher priority. And nearly two thirds said that current U.S. energy policies are actually making matters worse, not better.

    So you terrorists who want to eat up farmland with McMansions should rot at Guantanamo while crops for bioenergy are grown on the land.

  59. 70

    righton spews:

    goldy

    Ah nirvana for the communists; pondeing how to take property. Why don’t you run a initiative to establish collectives out in the burbs?

    You must hate poor people; blocking construction just means your house and others go up in value.

    Ah, a John and Teresa type of liberal….

    I’d rather you taxed Gulfstreams…

  60. 71

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    “You have no property rights, except those the sovereign sees fit to give you.” [Roger Rabbit] Well, there you have it! The basic difference between Republicans and social liberal “progressive” Democrats.

  61. 72

    skagit spews:

    Mark “faux” redneck Kennedy: If you lack the intellect or moral character to do that, then tough shit.

    I probably lack your brawn but am clearly superior in both intellect and moral character. My last post reflects that to anyone WITH A BRAIN.

  62. 73

    Green Thumb spews:

    MTR @ 8:
    “If you want what I’ve got, do what I do. If you lack the intellect or moral character to do that, then tough shit.”

    Notice that MTR didn’t actually SAY what he did to get his alleged money. This raises two questions:
    1) Where did this much-bragged-about money come from?
    2) How did MTR display his intellect and moral character to earn it?
    3) Is MTR’s conception of “intellect” and “moral character” the same as normal people, or are these code words for sociopathic behavior?

    Any thoughts?

  63. 74

    For the Clueless spews:

    19 – I wouldn’t waste your time giving that bet-welshing scumbag the benefit of the doubt about anything. As far as I’m concerned it’s all lies to me.

    At least until he makes good on the bet HE challenged Goldy to and HE LOST.

  64. 76

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    I’ve seen all the McMansions I care to.
    Commentby Harry Tuttle
    [……………………..Er, Harry, It’s not YOUR land! If you don’t like what other’s do, buy the land at market price. Otherwise, STFU!]

  65. 77

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    MTR @ 8:
    “If you want what I’ve got, do what I do. If you lack the intellect or moral character to do that, then tough shit.”

    Notice that MTR didn’t actually SAY what he did to get his alleged money. This raises two questions:
    1) Where did this much-bragged-about money come from?
    2) How did MTR display his intellect and moral character to earn it?
    3) Is MTR’s conception of “intellect” and “moral character” the same as normal people, or are these code words for sociopathic behavior?

    Any thoughts?

    Commentby Green Thumb— [….Green Thumb, Could it be hard work, savings and investments for several decades? This never crossed your mind as liberals think others create wealth by stealing.]

  66. 78

    skagit spews:

    If you’re all so pure about “the taking of land’ wouldn’t it be an appropriate gesture to give it back to the Indians. Hmmmmm?

  67. 79

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    “In your case, yes. You have too much money for your own good.”

    Commentby Roger Rabbit— 6/30/06@ 3:06 pm […….hehe, Democrat “guvment” hacks KNOW how much money those in the private sector should have. Some of us might have “too much”!! Hillary and RR will “redistribute” this error!! Karl Marx would be proud!!]

  68. 80

    skagit spews:

    Yes, and your favorite economist, King Louis XVI, would also be proud. That is, before the revolution. . .

  69. 81

    TommmyDeLaaaaaaiiiiiiiid spews:

    OHHH, GawWwwwd [JCH] you are ATLAS!!!! Grab that STEM, buhhday and RIDe that 500 pound TOMMYHAAAWWWWK to freedom-a quarter ton of pure unadultered CONSERVATIVE JIZZZUMMM—–SHRUGGAH-SHRUGGAH-SHRUGGAH….Oh, Oh, Oh, aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! You are some humpa-humpa ringa dingahhhh do wHHHAAHHH Dooooodeey, BAY-OH-BAY!!!!!!!

    How’s the weather today in Algona? Per my lawyer’s instructions, send money.

  70. 83

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    Yes, and your favorite economist, King Louis XVI, would also be proud. That is, before the revolution. . .

    Commentby skagit— 7/1/06@ 4:22 [Er, skigat, Mine would be Milton Friedman. And get this…………… No property rights, no work from JCH. That means no tax revenue from JCH. Atlas has Shrugged.]

  71. 84

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    27, Take another hand full of meth. Eat them like candy. Enjoy! [Even if you die, you can still vote Democrat several times in King County in November!]

  72. 85

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    “We know best”. Roger Rabbit, Hillary Clinton, and Karl Marx

  73. 86

    Harry Tuttle aka voter advocate spews:

    re: 22.

    The biologist Ernst Mayr reflected on the likelihood of uncovering extraterrestrial intelligence, and considered the prospects very low. He estimated that each of the 50 billion species that have evolved since the origin of life on earth has lasted about 100,000 years. He also observed that the history of life on earth refutes the concept that it is better to be smart than stupid.

    That’s about the amount of since the breeding group we descend from commenced, so we are entering a period where an answer may be provided to whether being smart is better than being stupid.

    Our demonstrated capacity, particularly during the past few hundred years, to assault the environment that sustains life and a diversity of complex organisms, particularly our own kind, suggests that we will fare no better than the dinosaur.

    If the extraterrestrial call comes, chances are we will no longer be available to answer it.

  74. 87

    jsa on commercial drive spews:

    MTR & JCH,

    Sorry you don’t like Roger’s explanation of where property rights come from. It breaks down to this:

    Either you entrust into the State to guarantee your property rights, or you take that responsibility on yourself. If you DIY, you are of course free to set any rules for the management of your property you see fit. Many excellent locations are available in Sub-Saharan Africa to conduct these experiments. If you entrust maintenance of property rights to the state, you enter into a decision by consensus as to how that land will be managed.

    I don’t think the 101st Flying Keyboard Brigade gets down to the rifle range all that much, but even assuming they did, DIY defense means exactly that. You not only get to take potshots at the odd trespasser (easy enough), you get to use your trusty AR-14 to defend against large heavily armed gangs who will burn your house down, kill your children and rape your wife because, hey, whoever excercises force to defend land gets land. That’s property defense at its most basic level. Right?

    I remain curious as to where so-called conservative government works well. If it is such a great model, it’s not being adopted that widely, which is a shame, because I am looking for some showcases. The last time I went around with this with righton, we got down to Taiwan (an island with huge state involvement in the private sector and an average income approximately half that of the US), and Switzerland (a tiny country in the mountains with no immigration, a highly educated workforce, and a huge financial services industry that certainly doesn’t hurt the economy a bit).

    We really need some better nominees. Come on guys! Conservatism is good, so it HAS to actuall work somewhere, doesn’t it?

  75. 88

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    Conservatism is good, so it HAS to actuall work somewhere, doesn’t it?

    Commentby jsa on commercial drive […………………………………….Er, JSA, “Progressive socialism is good, so it HAS to actually work somewhere”. [JSA] Shall we look at North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe, or some other countries where property rights are not secure? No property rights: no investment………which means no tax revenue for liberal Democrat parasites like Roger Rabbit to buy Democrat votes.]

  76. 89

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    “You have no property rights, except those the sovereign sees fit to give you.” [Roger Rabbit] ………………………………………………………….Well, there you have it! The basic difference between Republicans and social liberal “progressive” Democrats. Note the lack of property rights in Cuba, North Korea, and Zimbabwe.

  77. 90

    skagit spews:

    C’mon “faux redneck” and the rest of your money-addicted conserves . . . show your intellectual stuff. We;re waiting with bated breath.

  78. 91

    Green Thumb spews:

    JCH @23:

    Once again you set up a strawman with which you indignantly kick down with all your manly strength (11 on a scale of 10?).

    I didn’t say anything about stealing. How am I to possibly judge MTR if I don’t know how he accumulated he alleged wealth?

    Did he invent something that has saved millions from a fatal cancer and then used the windfall profits to set up a research foundation? If so, that wouldn’t sound like stealing to me.

    So MTR, if you really want to be a role model for us, sketch the outlines of HOW you earned you wealth. If you refuse, much like you’ve refused to explain your four alleged degrees, we may continue to wonder whether you’re just a blowhard living in your mom’s basement.

  79. 92

    skagit spews:

    Just as expected, all you have to put out there is a red herring. C’mon, RPK, answer the question.

  80. 93

    Green Thumb spews:

    They are afraid to offer real examples because none of them make conservatism look good. For example, if these guys had to set up a factory in the U.S. they would be most inclined to do so in, say, Georgia or Alabama. Taxes are low, environmental and worker regulations minimal, land-use restrictions laughable . . . . A capitalist’s paradise!

    Of course, they wouldn’t actually want to live there. Quality of life doesn’t rise to their discriminating standards.

  81. 94

    dj spews:

    Mark the Thieving Redneck @ 8

    “If you want what I’ve got, do what I do.”

    What…steal money from people like Goldy? No thanks. I’ll just earn it by actually working for a living.

    “If you lack the intellect or moral character to do that, then tough shit.”

    You lack both. You are a thief with no moral character whatsoever. Make good on your bet, asswipe, and quit lying about yourself.

    Intellect? Right…you are an ignorant asshole who pretends to understand science and statistics. But, you don’t. You learned a few words in college and you don’t really understand them.

    How about this, Mark the Asshole Thief: you make good on your $100 bet with Goldy and you and I can have a real debate about global warming. You know, citing studies, debating the merit, discussing the real statistical techniques that must be used to analyze the data. I suspect you are too much of a moral and intellectual lightweight to do that, though.

  82. 95

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    13

    “So Roger the US and Washington state constitutions are a waste of paper and ink.” Commentby Jimbo— 7/1/06@ 2:12 pm

    Republicans think so, but Sheriff Rabbit is here to enforce the supreme law of the land!

  83. 96

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Speaking of the constitution, sillyguy thinks we should amend it to require revotes of close elections. I’m sure he didn’t clear that with Karl Rove. (“Who the FUCK authorized him to say that? What is he thinking? Would someone please remind him of Florida and Ohio?”) For picture of sillyguy’s idea, click here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....hopter.JPG