Exposing the Farm Bureau’s lies, and the media’s complicity

To my friends in the traditional media: notice has been served:

  1. The Washington Farm Bureau is shamelessly lying to you in support of their dangerous, land use initiative, and
  2. Us bloggers are going to make you look awfully damn foolish if you repeat these lies unchallenged.

Noemie Maxwell has posted an absolute, must-read piece over on WashBlog, dissecting just some of the lies with which Washington Farm Bureau President Steve Appel peppered his initiative campaign kickoff speech. Noemie presents a solid bit of sleuthing that pulls the veil from the Farm Bureau’s efforts to mislead the public on this very important issue; it’s a tad wonkish, but a fascinating read.

And I especially encourage reporters and columnists who plan to cover this initiative to pay close attention, because I promise you that this is the type of relentless fact checking local bloggers will pursue throughout this initiative campaign… and if you fail to do same, we will do everything in our power to mercilessly expose your lack of professionalism.

In this particular instance, Noemie focuses on the claims of Bruce Ritter, a small landowner whose plight Appel highlights as typical of thousands of others across the state. That the head of the Farm Bureau could not find an actual farmer to serve as his property rights poster boy was the first thing to touch off Noemie’s suspicions. But …

Odder than this choice of a representative landowner, and more troubling, is the inaccuracy in Mr. Appels’ statement about the Ritter property. Half of the assertions made by Mr. Appel are easily debunked. The other half are not substantiated and are, in fact, shown by the public record to almost certainly be untrue.

Noemie then proceeds to debunk Appel’s assertion that under the proposed Thurston County Critical Areas Ordinance, Appel would lose the use of 90% of two adjoining, 5-acre parcels, his “mobile home, horse barn, well, and septic system all regulated out of existence… his land would be virtually worthless.”

Yeah. Right.

In fact, as Noemie points out, the proposed regulations are public record, and they clearly state that not only are existing structures grandfathered, a “reasonable accommodation” of up to 5000 square feet is allowed per parcel.

Noemie then delves into testimony before the Thurston County Planning Commission, and other public records, and easily discovers further holes in the Ritter anecdote. In fact, a good portion of Ritter’s property is covered by wetlands, and thus development was already restricted under current regulations at the time Ritter purchased the properties in 1995. Thus the poster boy for the Farm Bureau’s initiative is a non-agricultural landowner who wants to obtain via initiative development rights on critical wetlands that he did not have at the time he purchased the property.

And how have these claims been reported in the press? Well, looking at an article in the Seattle P-I, exactly as the Farm Bureau cynically intended:

He points to people such as Bruce Ritter, who owns two adjacent 5-acre lots in Thurston County crisscrossed with wetlands and streams. Under proposed ordinances, he wouldn’t be able to build on 9 acres, Boyer said.

“When you draw all these buffers around these waterways, suddenly he’s left with no usable land, and the home and horse barn and well and septic system that he’s been sitting on for years are literally regulated out of existence,” he said.

This was a statement of fact, not of opinion, and thus the P-I had a professional obligation to fact check it before substantiating it in print. The fact that reporter Jennifer Langston cloaked the statement in attribution is no excuse, for it is demonstrably false, and thus should have been exposed as such, if repeated at all.

When Langston repeats such untruths, unchallenged, she becomes — willing or not — a collaborator with those who are trying to mislead the public for political gain. Indeed, our daily newspapers and other traditional media outlets are the essential cogs in the propaganda machine that transforms calculated lies into common knowledge: Ritter’s misleading testimony is cited by Appel who is cited by the P-I which is cited by others as an authoritative, objective source. This is the news equivalent of money-laundering, and it requires the passive assistance of professional journalists, if not their actual complicit cooperation.

Don’t get me wrong… I admire the profession. I am an avid news consumer, and I personally like and respect nearly every journalist I have met. I even consider some of them my friends. Hell… I’d kill for a shot as a paid columnist at a regional daily.

But this initiative is simply too important to hold my tongue when my friends and (gasp) colleagues screw up!

So notice has been served. Noemie and I and others will be scrutinizing every word you write on this subject between now and November, and I encourage all my fellow bloggers to link to Noemie’s post, and announce to your readers that you will be joining us in our campaign to keep this an honest debate.

Comments

  1. 1

    LiberalForever spews:

    I went to this exposetheleft.com blog, and gave them an earful, of course with nothing but facts, and no profanity. I did not go easy on them. They took down all my posts. It is amazing these people want to have a blog, but don’t let people voice their opinion. I think the term “conservativ blog” means if you don’t think like us, don’t comment. Something like “We all think the world is flat, and if you post the world is round we will take down your posts”.

    It is a great thing that all the progressive blogs let anyone post that wants to, and the conservative blogs only let the fruitcakes post, and if you type anything true, they take your posts down.

    This should be illegal. All facts support my political positions. If I have something wrong, I will change my mind if you can convince me. I am an American! Truth, and country matter more than what party label I sit under at any given time.

    Progressive blogs rule. Just remember righties, all you can do is name call, because you don’t have any facts to support your positions.

  2. 2

    Jimbo spews:

    “Developers’ Initiative” In McFarland vs King county and 10 friends of Seattle who did the MBA file a brief for? Was the CAO based on best availible science? NO it fails most laws of science Occums Razor being one.

  3. 3

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    Zip,

    Have you ever heard of the “wise use” movement? Its name does not imply what it is really about.

    Try typing – “dan wood” “wise use” – into a google search and you wil see that this initiative (the force behind it at least) has its roots in some interesting past activities.

    happy reading.

    and if you dont like the current CAO or growth plan in Chelan county why not attend public hearings on the issue and voice your concerns. Better yet find a few like minded people to do the same. I am not familiar with Chelan County elected officials, but I would imagine that not many people attend those hearings and when people (voters) do they listen.

    Throwing out the progress made in the past 10 years (and any in the future) is a totally irresponsible way to address the specific concerns with a process that on whole has the best interests of communities in mind.

  4. 4

    zip spews:

    Left is right

    I’m not arguing the initiative, I’m pointing out your misunderstanding of the current codes. The GMA and resulting CAO are too strict and will never last, whether taken down by this initiative or some time in the future.

    Rebuilding a non conforming structure is not allowed. Read the Chelan County CAO code as an example. In fact, you’re limited in how much remodel or improvement can be done to a non conforming structure.

    Try getting a reasonable use exception someday, it’s not as easy as you imply. The expense of pursuing one is more than anybody would spend for a house to live in. The result is a lot of old houses located too close to slopes or shorelines will never be rebuilt under the current GMA.

  5. 5

    spews:

    Hi, Thinking Republican,

    For a great policy paper on takings from the Republican perspective, you can check out:

    http://www.repamerica.org/policy/takings.html

    I’ve spent quite awhile on this group’s page — and am very glad they’re out there. I tell the pro-environment Republicans I meet while out doorbelling, etc. about this group.

    The two main groups organizing against this initiative that I know of are:

    futurewise.org and http://www.protectcommunities.org/

  6. 6

    Thinking Republican spews:

    Isn’t this the initiative that is similar to Oregon’s Measure 37?

    Here is a sampling of the claims made by the “little guy” from a Georgetown Law analysis of M37 –

    Claim to Build Casino in a Town of 400

    Marion County- Two brothers have filed for permission to build a casino, hotel, and golf course on their farm outside of a town of 400. (Associated Press, “Marion County Brothers File Measure 37 Claim, Proposing Casino.” January 26, 2005) Fire Chief Reed Godfrey of the St. Paul fire district that would be required to service the McKay casino development, has said that the project “…would completely overwhelm our fire department and ambulance transport capabilities.” (Ron Soble, “Farmland Owners Claim Right to Build Casino,” The Oregonian. January 26, 2005). While the Oregon Constitution prohibits nontribal casinos, the brothers claim their family has owned the land since before Oregon became a state.

    Claim for a Right to an Unstoppable Landfill

    Washington County- A 43-acre landfill filed a Measure 37 claim. The company asks that the state waive its 209-foot height limitation, as well as allow the landfill to extend northwards, or pay the company $11.4 million. The landfill is already unpopular with neighbors. (Laura Oppenheimer, “Landfill Files Measure 37 Claim,” The Oregonian. March 29, 2005.)

    Claim to Build a Mall in the Woods

    A Measure 37 claim in rural Polk County has been approved for over 1 million square feet of commercial space, approximately the size of Oregon’s largest malls. (April 15)

    I don’t agree with every land use/environmental regulation the state has, but that dosent’ mean I want to throw everything out the window. I do agree that this initiative is a bad idea, and it is pathetic the WSFB has to use a non-farmer’s false claims of government regulations pushing him around to prove their point.

    I hope someone is organizing against this…

  7. 7

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    zip

    read a little furthur….

    the “Developers’ Initiative” would make ANY zoning law, or environmental protection adopted since 1996 considered as “damaging your property” and you could sue for the lost economic value.

    Most CAO updates already have reasonable use assurances, meaning that if existing regs would hinder you from building a home, then you would be allowed to build anyway. What you do NOT have the right to build are tacky strip-malls and souless subdivisions just so you can “maximize your profits” at the communitys’ expense.

    So if you already have “reasonable use assurances” for your property, who is going to benefit from eliminating 10 years of zoning laws and making it impossible for cities to adopt any in the future? Irresponsible developers who care more about $$$ than ensureing the sub-division they build dosen’t cause YOUR home to flood, or contimaniate YOUR well.

    Take a close read zip

  8. 8

    zip spews:

    Gee Goldy,
    Your comment threads are going to hell in a hand basket! Despite all the BS that followed it, Left is Right @ 4 above is WRONG. Just read what the regulators actually say: “no lawfully existing current uses or structures would be prohibited”. Of course, rebuilding an old structure (as most reasonable people and families will eventually need to do) is prohibited.

    You lefties are on the wrong side of this issue. The land use regs have gotten too restrictive, and there is no way these restrictions will last over the long run as population migrates to this area. Your “no compromise” approach to this will accomplish nothing. Yu guys need to learn to compromise. The current land use regs allow for ZERO compromise, which will never last.

  9. 9

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    ROGER RABBIT POLL

    How big is Stefan’s dick (fully extended)?

    [ ] 1. 12 inches
    [ ] 2. 8 inches
    [ ] 3. 5 inches
    [ ] 4. 3 inches
    [ ] 5. What dick?

  10. 10

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    If you want to comment on uSP use this form:
    Stefan, you are : a) a genius b)a great humanitarian c)never wrong d) a real “mensch”!

    Seattle would be: a)lost without you b)a spiritually bereft city if you left c)unable to educate their children without your input d)in the political grip of Stalinists

    Stefan, you are: a)the best b)our Saviour (no offense!) c)as astute as Levi Strauss d)in possession of a twelve inch penis (according to [JCH] )

  11. 11

    Drivel spews:

    Don said “I geuss we will never knwo WHY [JCH] hates Black people, Gay people, and Muslims.

    All we know is that he does.

    And that RUFUS supports him.

    Probably because JCH and RUFUS are all of the above. Gay black Muslims.

  12. 12

    Donnageddon spews:

    #

    I, for one, am not going to excuse anyone who in any way accepts, or tries to downplay the disgusting nature of JCH�s posts.

    Comment by Donnageddon� 2/19/06 @ 9:58 pm [Well, DON, That settles that!!!!]

    Comment by [JCH] — 2/19/06 @ 10:23 pm

    No, JCH, it is far from settled.

    The majority of people will not be satisfied until no one, not even righton and RUFUS, will give even cold comfort to your racist hatred.

  13. 13

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    300

    “The liberals should be out there showing their compassion with their good deeds coming from their own money.”

    We’ve decided to adopt the Republican approach of doing good deeds with YOUR money. Since you seem to like it so well that you keep voting for it.

  14. 14

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    318

    “No Roger you are not a Democrat,you are a Soical Democrat that is why there is a statue of Lenin down the street. Comment by klake— 2/19/06 @ 11:03 pm”?

    I don’t need you to tell me what I am. You wouldn’t know a rabbit from an armadillo if one fucked you.

  15. 15

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Wow! This thread is already up to 323 posts! That’s more than Stefan’s pathetic little blog gets in a whole year.

  16. 16

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Speaking of Stefan, I wonder why he isn’t going to share the loot from his lawsuit against King County with the generous donors to his “legal action fund” who paid for the lawsuit?

  17. 17

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    ROGER RABBIT POLL

    Stefan isn’t going to share the loot from his lawsuit against King County with the generous donors to his “legal action fund” who paid for the lawsuit because:

    [ ] 1. He’s a selfish prick
    [ ] 2. He can’t hold a job and needs the money
    [ ] 3. Both of the above

  18. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    278

    “My guess next to know one.”

    How can anyone be so dumb that they spell the word “no” as “know?”

  19. 19

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    1 The meds! Klake, the meds. You’re seein’ them commies again. Just relax, the attendant will be by soon with your meds.

  20. 20

    klake spews:

    That’s why I’m a Democrat.

    Comment by Roger Rabbit— 2/19/06 @ 12:04 pm
    No Roger you are not a Democrat,you are a Soical Democrat that is why there is a statue of Lenin down the street.

  21. 21

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    I hate Charles Pombo. Numbers don’t lie , but liars use numbers. Pombo says the 1973 ESA is a failure because only a few of the endangered species are now off the list.

    What Charles Pombo doesn’t say ( but what Charles Pombo knows ) is that it takes a minimum of 50 years for a species to recover — often a hundred or more years! The average amount of years that most species have been on the list is 15.5 years. The longer a species is on the list, the better it recovers, This is the scientific fact.

    Pombo knows the 50 year minimum rule, yet he continues to say the 1973 ESA is a failure, when it is clearly a huge success. Charles Pombo is a black-hearted lying son-of-bitch who wants to kill animals and destroy your children’s world so he can make a few bucks off of corporate donations.

    Charles Pombo = Lying, black-hearted son-of a bitch

  22. 22

    Bill Best spews:

    Good story Rodger. I had a similiar experience a few years back. I was giving out leaflets at the Pike Market about an anti Nazi- anti Skinhead demo planned in Seattle. A very old fellow in a parked car motioned me over to see what I was pasing out. He read the leaflet , tears came to his eyes and he gushed gratitude for our rally, then showed me his tattoo. For me, it was a moment of life altering peak experience. We invited him to come and speak, he declined, tried to give us money. We said, no and we shook hands and he drove off.

    I wear a pink traingle medallion on my neck in solidarity with the Gay folk who died in the Nazi camps, many thousands – rounded up across Germany after the famous Night of the Long Knives. I don’t take it off. I had it made for me by a jewelry person in the market.

    Not well know, is, when the the camps were liberated by the Allies at the end of the war, those wearing the pink triangle were not liberated. Under the German penal codes in effect at that time they were there for the crime of being homosexual. So the pink triangle wearers were taken to prison to finish serving their Nazi imposed sentences. Nor were they offered any repatriations by the post war American model German govt. Crime upon crime.

    It is interesting to see modern Germany preparing to offfer civil marriage to gay folks. Perhaps there is hope over time for better instincts to prevail.

  23. 23

    [JCH] spews:

    I, for one, am not going to excuse anyone who in any way accepts, or tries to downplay the disgusting nature of JCH’s posts.

    Comment by Donnageddon— 2/19/06 @ 9:58 pm [Well, DON, That settles that!!!!]

  24. 24

    LiberalForever spews:

    ChangeAmerica.net: If we didn’t comment on, or rebuke the posts of obvious idiots, maybe they would find another hobby, like drowning kittens of something….

  25. 25

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Donnageddon, don’t be too hard on Tighton. He’s watched so much Faux News his brains have drained out his earholes. Besides, the reason he doesn’t like Roger, is the Rabbit, unlike Righton, actually READS some of the links Righton posts. . .and has the gall to point out that they often make exactly the opposite point that Righton is failing to make.
    That’s OK Righton, its good for comic relief.

  26. 26

    Donnageddon spews:

    righton “I think JCH serves only to counter the left wing babbleman Roger”

    An example of racist by Roger Rabbit, please?

    You are full of shit, and even “supporting” the vile comments by JCH that much puts you in a very vile crowd, righton.

    I, for one, am not going to excuse anyone who in any way accepts, or tries to downplay the disgusting nature of JCH’s posts.

  27. 27

    Donnageddon spews:

    RUFUS, JCH is praising your post.

    I just bet that makes you feel all comfy, don’t it.

    Praise from a racist piece of shit like JCH must make you feel real proud.

    Did I call JCH a “racist piece of shit”?

    Yeah I did.

    JCH.racist.shit.piece.

    Oh, and RUFUS, as an praised assocciate of JCH, you are a racist piece of shit too.

    Happy?

    good.

  28. 28

    righton spews:

    I think JCH serves only to counter the left wing babbleman Roger. If goldy clipped each to say, 1000 words a day, this might be more interesting to read…

  29. 29

    Mr. X spews:

    JCH,

    That’s the best you’ve got? You’re even more pathetic than I thought. Go kill yourself, or something.

  30. 30

    LiberalForever spews:

    ChangeAmerica.net: I must apologize for the comments of some of the (Nazis, Fascists, Republicans, Conservatives) or whatever they call themselves these days. All they can do is name call because no facts support any of their positions.

    It must be a lonely existance knowing no facts support your beliefs. Cons.

    Tell you what. Whatever Rush says, pretend just the opposite is true. You will soon see the light.

    As far as trying to trash liberals, the father of our country George Washington called himself a liberal. Go ahead and trash him….

    Freaks.

    http://www.ChangeAmerica.net

  31. 31

    K spews:

    How do you know, JCH, were you there? What do you know about disease transmission?

    You pitiful fool

  32. 33

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    JCH has a huge wellspring of pain, fear, and inadequacy. We are sort of like his “Primal Scream”. His failures and inadequacies loom so large in his mind, he has little else to do besides spew his hatred and pain all over the internet. Your banality is boring, and serves little in the way of entertainment value. You are obviously too cheap to pay someone to listen to your pain, so you inflict yourself on us.

  33. 34

    Erik spews:

    wow. Almost 300 posts. Now i feel like posting just to add to the number. And this all about the farmers initiative.

    I think its a good initiative if and only if land speculators that make money on rezoning are forced to put their profits from the new classification into a pool to pay off the down zoned properties.

  34. 35

    [JCH] spews:

    RUFUS, And the funny thing is that Gore KNEW that his 1040 would be laughed at, but since Democrats are such hypocitical dumb shits, gave little or nothing to charity. Like DON et al, they talk about “love” and Republican “hate”, but ALWAYS reach into someone else’s wallet to share their “concern” [hence my posts on Darfur, Africa].

  35. 37

    [JCH] spews:

    Mr. X, Did you ever think that your gay lover might get AIDs from the pass down of the AIDs virus found in African monkeys? [Think about it!]

  36. 38

    [JCH] spews:

    Democrats: fags, parasites, union thugs, and liberals would want to “save the world”, but always with someone else’s money!!!

  37. 39

    [JCH] spews:

    No, not at all. I judge people by the content of their character not on skin color. Anyone who is a fervent liberal has to be lacking in moral character. We hate the sin not the sinner. JCH does have a point, if the world is as bad as the liberals say it is they sure are not doing much. The liberals should be out there showing their compassion with their good deeds coming from their own money. The democrats are classic hypocrites.

    Comment by RUFUS— 2/19/06 @ 7:43 pm [RUF, NOT a way to score points with parasite libs!]

  38. 40

    K spews:

    JCH- ignored my previous link on how AIDS likely made the leap from monkeys to humans. THen again ignore and ignorant share the same root.

    You glory in your own ignorance.

  39. 41

    [JCH] spews:

    K, I think we KNOW how AIDs made the leap from monkeys to African males. Save the bull shit for the Kool Aid drinking libs.

  40. 42

    [JCH] spews:

    302……K, What have YOU done today to help the blacks in Darfur? You aren’t a racist who hates blacks, are you?

  41. 43

    [JCH] spews:

    292….cont, Remember when Hillary deducted Bill’s new underwear? And Gore had 3 or 4 hundred charitible contributions on 3 or 4 hundred thousand in income? Typical DON type libs!!

  42. 44

    Mr. X spews:

    Donnageddon,

    Nice try on getting JCH to have an actual conversation, but since he’s a gutless, stupid, racist, homophobic, cowardly dishonest punk, I suspect that your valiant and civil effort is probably in vain.

  43. 45

    RUFUS spews:

    Al Gore’s tax return is a classic example of liberal giving. Lots of deductions but nothing charitable. Don’t expect me to give, take my neighbors money.

  44. 46

    Donnageddon spews:

    Any support for JCH = hatred of Blacks, whites, gays, Muslims

    And supports terrorists!

    Glad to see that RUFUS! You Hatemonger!

    [HE HE}

  45. 47

    Donnageddon spews:

    RUFUS “Don�t expect me to give, take my neighbors money.”

    FREELODER!

    Deadbeat! RUFUS you terrorist supporing hatemonger! And now you steal from neighbors and do no give to charity!

    [HE HE]

  46. 48

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH and RUFUS sitting in a tree
    H E I L I N G
    First comes hate
    Then comes freeloading
    Then comes fascism in a neocon coating

  47. 49

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    wow. i wonder if JCH would hate a black muslim farmer?

    this thread has gotten way off topic.

  48. 50

    [JCH] spews:

    287, RUFUS, Al Gore’s tax return is a classic example of liberal giving. Lots of deductions but nothing charitable. Don’t expect me to give, take my neighbors money. [Classic post!! This is the point of last dozen posts. Libs like Don and Al Gore all talk about giving, but the facts reveal they are jokes. Great post!]

  49. 51

    Donnageddon spews:

    RUFUS “CH does have a point”

    RUFUS aupports the terrorists, hates black, and white people, gays, and Muslims!

  50. 53

    RUFUS spews:

    No, not at all. I judge people by the content of their character not on skin color. Anyone who is a fervent liberal has to be lacking in moral character. We hate the sin not the sinner. JCH does have a point, if the world is as bad as the liberals say it is they sure are not doing much. The liberals should be out there showing their compassion with their good deeds coming from their own money. The democrats are classic hypocrites.

  51. 54

    K spews:

    The only interest JCH has is hijacking threads with hate talk. No rational interaction, just spew. At least he dropped his Tookie obsession for a bit.

    A pitiful individual

  52. 58

    Donnageddon spews:

    I geuss we will never knwo WHY [JCH] hates Black people, Gay people, and Muslims.

    All we know is that he does.

    And that RUFUS supports him.

  53. 59

    Steve Zemke spews:

    Well this thread is way off where it started, but for the record the Farm Bureau really represents corporate agricultural interests, not small family farms. The use of the word farms is like healthy forests and clean skies.

  54. 60

    [JCH] spews:

    DON, Would Mrs. DON understand that many potential African Democrats have needs and maybe she could help? [She isn't over 40, is she?]

  55. 61

    [JCH] spews:

    DON, Would Mrs. DON understand that many potential African Democrats have needs and maybe she could help? [She isn't over 40, is she?]

  56. 62

    RUFUS spews:

    If Condi runs how many white lilly male democrats would vote for her. My guess next to know one. Democrats = the real racists.

  57. 63

    [JCH] spews:

    272……..DON, Condi For President!!! J. C. Watts For VP!!!!! [Hillary, suck on that ticket!!!!!!!!!!]

  58. 65

    [JCH] spews:

    ST. LOUIS — Humans risk being overrun by diseases from the animal world, according to researchers who have documented 38 illnesses that have made that jump over the past 25 years. **SNIP** Each year, at least one new pathogen and multiple variations of existing threats infect humans for the first time… [DON, and Democrats from Detroit, NO more sex with barnyard animals.]

  59. 66

    Donnageddon spews:

    “Don’t you have a 13 year old daughter?”

    No but if I did, I would want her to learn why you hate Gay, Black and Muslim people.

    Won’t you help us all to understand, JCH?

  60. 68

    [JCH] spews:

    DON, Tell us what YOU are going to do today to help the needy in major Democrat areas like Detroit, Harare, and South Central LA?

  61. 70

    [JCH] spews:

    Don, We will not talk “hate”. We will talk “love”. Don’t you have a 13 year old daughter? Maybe she could help the needy in Darfur. Or Detroit. Or South Central LA. Maybe she could make new “Democrat Friends”? Maybe you will become the proud “granddad” of a new member of a generation of Democrat Darfur Americans!

  62. 72

    Donnageddon spews:

    No RUFUS, those are not the questions, but I am sure Associating yourself with JCH does your image well. And I am certain it is exactly where you belong.

    JCH, why do you hate black, gay and Muslim people?

  63. 73

    [JCH] spews:

    No, Don. We will not talk “Hate”!! We will talk “Democrat Love”. Muslims, gays, and many Democrat blacks need your love. And money. Will you help? Do you care?

  64. 74

    [JCH] spews:

    Please be specific. [Don] Tell me how you care for the many who need your love and support? “Please be specific.”

  65. 75

    RUFUS spews:

    Why do you hate Black people?

    Why do you hate Gay people?

    Why do you hate Muslim people?

    Comment by Donnageddon— 2/19/06 @ 7:06 pm

    Allow me to translate this for those who dont speak “liberalnese”.

    Why do you hate democratic plantation Black people?

    Why do you hate liberal Gay people?

    Why do you hate terrorist Muslim people?

  66. 76

    [JCH] spews:

    Don, Enough hate!! We must post “love”!! Show me that you libs are not parasites! Go to Haiti! Go to Darfur!! Go to Harare!! Go to Detroit!! Take your family and show them “Democrat Diversity”!!

  67. 77

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH, you missunderstand me. I am not talking about Dufur, NOLA… I am just interested in your hatred. And the reasons for it.

    Please be specific.

    All the details of why you hate Black people, gays and Muslims.

    Teach us, JCH.

  68. 78

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH.. why do you avoid answering…?

    Why do you HATE black people, gays and Muslims?

    Teach us.

  69. 79

    [JCH] spews:

    Don, what about the blacks in Darfur? Detroit? Harare? the Sudan? Don, WHERE IS YOUR HEART?? [and money?]

  70. 82

    Donnageddon spews:

    No one is asking that you save anyone, JCH. I am just interested why you hat Gays, Black people, and Muslims.

    I am very interested in finding out your reasons.

  71. 83

    Donnageddon spews:

    erratum

    hat should be “hate”

    I need to make this clear so JCH can enlighten us.

  72. 84

    [JCH] spews:

    Do, Why post about me? Can’t you “feel their pain”? Can’t you move your family to Africa to help them? Can’t you send them money? Blacks are killing blacks, and it must be Bush’s fault! They have NEEDS!

  73. 85

    Bill Best spews:

    240

    No, not at the ready. Will look around and post later. For some reason – as a topic – Gays and the Holocust has faded in recent years. Perhaps just the horror of it all is too strong, and the new generation is not much for history, even their own.

  74. 86

    [JCH] spews:

    Don, maybe you can fly Africans from Darfur to your neighborhood in Seattle and register them to vote Democrat in 06. Maybe fly in a few hundred thousand? Don, DO YOU CARE??????

  75. 87

    [JCH] spews:

    Don, You could bus these “New Democrats” from poll to poll, and from state to state in NOV 06. Any questions on voter fraud would be brushed off as “racist”!

  76. 88

    Donnageddon spews:

    No JCH, that is not the answer… But you are so passionate in your hatred of Gays, Black people and Muslims, that I just know you can teach me.

    Help me out JCH.

    Why do you hate Black people?

    Why do you hate Gay people?

    Why do you hate Muslim people?

  77. 89

    [JCH] spews:

    Besides Mr. X [gay], Where is the Democrat caring and love on this board? When the Democrats in New Orleans needed homes, how many of you libs shared yours? Don, where is your love?

  78. 90

    [JCH] spews:

    Don, Your heart must be opened, as well as your wallet!! Where is the Democrat sharing? Don, Help your fellow Democrats!! Many blacks in New Orleans have been told to move from 3 and 4 star hotels! Take them, Don! Help them!! Show us the way!!

  79. 91

    [JCH] spews:

    Shouldn’t some of your libs do something about the blacks in Darfur? They have NEEDS!! They are black!! They are dying!! LIbs, Do something!!!

  80. 93

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH, a few questions.

    1. Why do you hate gays?
    2. Why do you hate black people?
    3. Why do you hate Muslims?

    I am truly interested in your thinking on these issues.

    Please be specific, so you can teach us all.

  81. 94

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH, a few questions.

    1. Why do you hate gays?
    2. Why do you hate black people?
    3. Why do you hate Muslims?

    I am truly interested in your thinking on these issues.

    Please be specific, so you can teach us all.

  82. 95

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    If I misidentified you as a wingnut, I apologize. I don’t attack liberals. Although I’m not gay, I’m most certainly not anti-gay — I have gay friends, and I had a gay relative who fought in the Korean War. In those days, they had to hide it.

  83. 96

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    235

    Too bad someone didn’t murder Hitler when it would have saved the world incalculable grief. I can’t quite bring myself to say the same thing about our home-grown haters like Coulter, Robertson, and Falwell, but I’m tempted … and Coulter would be at the very top of my “useless human trash we can do without” list.

  84. 97

    vancouversucks spews:

    PS Has anyone ever counted the number of times JCH invokes “anal sex”?
    Is that his Rorschach standard?

  85. 98

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    238

    “number of times JCH invokes “anal sex”?”

    At least 4 to 6 times per thread.

  86. 99

    vancouversucks spews:

    Bil, I was under the impression that homosexuals were targeted for immediate execution as undesirable and did not survive in death camps. Wow. I did not know they were not liberated. So much to learn. Do you have a reference?

  87. 101

    [JCH] spews:

    240, vancouversucks, Care to guess what Democrat Muslim towelheads do to homosexuals? Take a guess!

  88. 103

    vancouversucks spews:

    RR. Yes the Coulters and the Falwells and Robertsons and on and on. And yes, it must be rejected. Humans easily degrade to the lowest common denomentator. Just see how easily JCH’s antisocial behavior despoils the dialog. I agree with you about challenging it though. I am WAY done with these people. The Coulters et al are the Judas goats among us.

  89. 104

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    226

    Let’s be clear what we’re talking about here. The purpose of growth management laws is to concentrate development within urban boundaries and prevent urban sprawl. Unchecked sprawl not only leads to loss of rural land, but also increases air pollution and the need for imported oil. Is it really in our interest to build cities where we have to drive two or three hours each way to get to work? Do we really want to destroy downtowns and move all the retail and jobs out to the city fringes? Do we really want sprawling, low-density housing that requires vastly more expensive infrastructure? None of the effects of sprawl are good for us, yet that is what an unregulated market and lax land use policies will produce every time.

  90. 105

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    219

    JCH — click your heels together, extend your right arm in a rigid salute, and say “Seig Heil!” three times. Then have a stiff drink and jump off a bridge.

  91. 106

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Now let me explain something to you, Bill Best. This woman http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050425/ has publicly stated that liberals should be put in “concentration camps” and “executed.” She claims to be joking, but I don’t believe her disclaimer.

    However, my problem is not so much with this lunatic as with the vast legions of Republicans who not only give her an audience but applaud wildly when she says things like that. Maybe they think it’s a joke, too — right now — but the problem is the use of this kind of rhetoric prepare people psychologically to do the unthinkable — to actually carry out the things she says.

    All my life, I’ve been taught that “it could happen here.” And it could, if we make the mistake of (a) not taking people like Ann Coulter seriously, and (b) not realizing she is, in fact, a grave threat to the sanity of our nation and the safety of millions of our fellow citizens. Ann Coulter is a menace of the first order — so much so, that her death would be a blessing. But I don’t think we’ll be that lucky.

  92. 107

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    218

    “Offered by those who never endured the most degrading experiece possible. Comment by Bill Best— 2/19/06 @ 4:33 pm”

    You’re right — I never endured THIS. http://www.jpfo.org/9.jpg

    One of my most vivid childhood memories is of getting a haircut. The barber was an old man who spoke broken English (he was Hungarian, I remember my father saying). I was only 5 or 6 years old at the time, and didn’t understand why he had blue numbers tattooed on his forearm.

  93. 109

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    213

    “violent narcissistic selfish self-interested megalomaniacs”

    You don’t have to type all of this. Feel free to abbreviate it as “nazis.”

  94. 110

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH, a few questions.

    1. Why do you hate gays?
    2. Why do you hate black people?
    3. Why do you hate Muslims?

    I am truly interested in your thinking on these issues.

  95. 111

    vancouversucks spews:

    223. Yeah, but I disagree with Bill saying the boot camp concept is “…offered by those who have never suffered the most degrading experience possible.” I was kind of leaning in support of Bill until he said that. How would he know what anyone here has suffered? (other than we kind of have an idea about anacephalic JCH) I find that statement extremely offensive.

    Kind of makes me think RR and Tree Frog are correct to suspect him…

    I think it is pretty clear the only warfare going on in this country– in spite of the attempt to make it seem like the working class right is at war with the working class left for cultural supremacy — is economic. Pit one group against the other and steal them both blind.

    Why I could even be friends with JCH, but he’d have to wash his hands first.

  96. 112

    Steve Zemke spews:

    One curious thing about the people who talk about property as an “investment” is that they have a weird sense of what the word investment means. To them it seems to mean “guaranteed” return, not “possible” return. I couldn’t find the word guaranteed in the dictionary defition when I looked. I thought maybe I was missing something. Guaranteed investment, now that’s something I could use.
    Just who is it that they think is supposibly guaranteeing this return? Is there really such a thing as a risk free investment? Well I guess they think they might have found one. Investors behind the Farm Bureau initiative, the developers, think they might because they are hoping Washington voters will believe their campaign hyperbole. Because if you do they will get you to pay for all the shopping malls and housing developments that they supposibly can’t build because of growth management regulations. And if government can’t pay their price to not build, then you will see sprawl growing beyond the present urban growth boundaries and farmland disappearing much faster.
    When you drive down I-5 past Southcenter,and you look down at all the warehouses and other buildings littering the Kent and Auburn valleys, remember this once used to be prime farmland that provided locally grown crops for King County. No more. The Growth Management Act came too late for this area. The Farm Bureau wants to return to pre-growth management days.

  97. 113

    [JCH] spews:

    Gays enjoy anal sex, give each other AIDs and die. OK……….whatever!! Less Democrats around to run up health care costs!

  98. 114

    Dale spews:

    Back on subject. CAO is a complex issue and this reeks of the standard right-wing propaganda. They divide the working class while pushing their agenda of everything for the developers.
    And jch,go fuck yourself.

  99. 115

    [JCH] spews:

    213…Vancouversucks, Fancy words, but the blacks in Darfur need to know that YOU care!!!!

  100. 116

    Bill Best spews:

    206

    Yes indeed – grinding on is correct. I think this site is doomed to non discussion — just name calling for the pleasure – boot camp. such a nice concept. Offered by those who never endured the most degrading experiece possible.

    Time to go see Broke Back Mountain this evening. Missed it so far.

    The better gay love story would be set on a Navy submarine, any nation, on protracted active duty. If the torpedos could talk.

  101. 117

    [JCH] spews:

    Botton line: You Democrat libs are a bunch of pussy, sissy parasites traitors. Thank God Bush is President and not traitor Gore or Jane Fonda Kerry. Fuck you liberal Democrat pussies!!! And you ACL Jew lawyers…….Fuck you, Democrat bitches!! Best regards, JCH

  102. 118

    [JCH] spews:

    Oh, but what about all the welfare New Orleans Democrats would are 3rd generation welfare hacks!! 80 billion isn’t enough!! Bush just hates blacks!! Fuck you libs!! Go sue each other, and fuck each other, and tax each other. Thank God Atlas has Shrugged!!

  103. 119

    [JCH] spews:

    Gays and Democrat blacks with AIDs: I don’t care. Fuck each other up the ass, do crack, share dirty needles doing smack…….whatever, but it is not Bush’s fault! Dems take zero responsiblity from their actions, then bitch that Republicans don’t care!! Guess what!! I don’t give a fuck!! Get AIDs……Do smack……..Kill each other……Just do it quietly!!!!!!

  104. 120

    [JCH] spews:

    Vancouversucks, Don’t you care about the “needs” of the blacks in Darfur? Blacks are dying there! As a caring lib, can’t you show that you care? RR? Mr. X? Tree Frog? REV AA, Don’t you care about the blacks in the Motherland? [hehe]

  105. 121

    [JCH] spews:

    213…Vancouversucks, Fancy words, but the blacks in Darfur need to know that YOU care!!!!

  106. 122

    vancouversucks spews:

    210 Exactly Mr Rabbit. That is why I come here. To steel my resovle. Our fricking touchy feeling turn the other cheek has let the entire dialog be stolen by violent narcissistic selfish self-interested megalomaniacs. You can’t turn the other cheek when the bully’s philosophy decries a pluralistic society. DUH.

  107. 124

    [JCH] spews:

    I take it none of you libs will be “saving” Darfur. Is it because it is a black country and you are cowards and racists?

  108. 126

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    204

    “JCH IS sentient, isn’t he?”

    No, he’s an anomolous protoplasmic blob gone awry.

  109. 127

    vancouversucks spews:

    #185 Inverse relationship between the presence of JCH and intelligent discussion

  110. 129

    spews:

    Last word for me here for now. A disclaimer per 164: I’m no expert on land use or the CAO. Plus, a bonus question: why let the trolls goad you into attacking your potential allies? The machine grinds on….

  111. 130

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Yes, one should show compassion for all sentient beings. . .JCH IS sentient, isn’t he?

  112. 132

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 203

    Look at HA as boot camp for liberals. We have to beat them up a little so they’re ready to face the Rethuglicans. Don’t want to send babes into combat unprepared.

  113. 134

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Noemieaxwell@203 You bring up a point, but given our history with ‘ringer’ trolls, the answer should be obvious.
    If someone would be my ally, they best not be a shrinking violet, nor ill-informed. If someone cannot stand up to the normal rancor here on HA how can they expect to contribute in a real confrontation with Rethuglican propaganda?

  114. 135

    vancouversucks spews:

    #199 Not quite enough material there for a real dissertation though –
    Sensitive child, shunned by insecure and distant father, attempts to compensate, washes out, lives in basement, whacks off…ideas of manhood: fighting, raping and bullying…

  115. 136

    marks spews:

    JCH @183,

    Hey, I’m putting together a task force consisting of your old ship and sending it to Darfur. I need you to be the OOD.

    Of course, your ship needs a little work to make it seaworthy, since Shick bought it…

    At least you’ll be clean shaven when you get there…

  116. 137

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    JCH,You found your crack pipe! Now go and fin dCoulter and you’ll have a matching crack whore. Take your sexually deviant Penn State buddies with you.

  117. 139

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating:
    “Goldy is doing his community service thing by letting JCH, among others, post here. The therapy does him some good. . .sadly the meds do not seem to be helping and they say the electroshock has to have something to work on. . .
    No, folks, you really can’t make this stuff up. JCH is real. A wonderful exhibit of a life gone wrong. . .sexual degenerate Penn State grad, Navy failure, right wing nut job. A walking billboard of what’s wrong with the Right. Goldy is to be commended for letting him display his symptoms here.
    I sort of view it as a target recognition training session. Study him well. If it comes to it, and you have him well placed in your reticle, you wouldn’t want to miss. . .just kidding, of course.
    When he posts, he does a service to all.”

  118. 142

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    JCH — when I mentioned people with 200 IQs, I wasn’t thinking of you. I just want to clarify that.

  119. 143

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    182

    “a mild post @16, indeed too tame for this blog”

    That, by itself, is suspicious — although I’m pretty sure this is not Kevin Carnes I’m dealing with.

  120. 144

    [JCH] spews:

    RR, Perhaps you might try posting in Ebonics. That way many of the liberal posters [Mr. X, REV AA, etc] might be able to understand your comments.]

  121. 145

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I suppose it’s possible that Bill Best is just some lost soul who happened to stumble into this water hole not realizing it’s where all the snakes gather for lunch.

  122. 146

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    That’s why I’m willing to give him a chance to prove he’s not a wingnut who came here looking for trouble.

  123. 147

    [JCH] spews:

    Real Democrat liberals should be “Saving da World” an’ flying ta Darfur, Motherland ta he`p those blacks in need! just like mammy. [Posted in Ebonics for the benefit of Democrat blacks]

  124. 148

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    191

    JCH — we can always count on you to flip in a comment that proves Republicans are racists.

  125. 151

    [JCH] spews:

    The difference between me and Ann Coulter is that I’m sometimes truly tongue-in-cheek, whereas she’s lying when she says she’s joking.

    Comment by Roger Rabbit— 2/19/06 @ 2:30 pm ["The difference between Ann Coulter and me".......Did you really graduate from college?]

  126. 152

    marks spews:

    Roger @135

    Even worse, many of these ideology-driven rightwing liars attempt to pose as moderates or even Democrats.

    I see where your trigger-finger gets itchy, but to make a judgment based on a mild post @16, indeed too tame for this blog in its current iteration, makes me wonder if you are seeing the big bad republican out of the corner of your eye with each eye movement.

    Perhaps you need to do some fishing in Eastern WA as you suggested @151. Rest, relax, recharge…

    If nothing else, JCH is always in need of a good harangue, but I must admit that he stands unarmed in the battle of wits…

  127. 153

    [JCH] spews:

    marks, Shouldn’t you libs be in Darfur, Africa “saving the world”, or are you a racist?

  128. 154

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    172

    The difference between me and Ann Coulter is that I’m sometimes truly tongue-in-cheek, whereas she’s lying when she says she’s joking.

  129. 155

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I don’t hate Republicans, but I don’t like what they’ve become, and I’m pragmatic and practical in recognizing them for the implacable enemy they are, and what we must do about it.

  130. 156

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    164

    “No, Slime Ball Rabbit, I am not a right winger.” But see my post #169 above.

    Sorry Bill, I don’t believe you.

  131. 157

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    164

    “No, Slime Ball Rabbit, I am not a right winger.”

    Sorry Bill, I don’t believe you. But see my post #169 above.

  132. 159

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    And you’re right about me being a Slime Ball! It takes one to fight a bunch of Slime Balls! That’s my philosophy. Of course, because I started out as a Goldwater Republican, it comes naturally to me. I learned how to be a Slime Ball from you rightwingers, and you were good teachers.

  133. 160

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    But if I catch you spewing rightwing propaganda again, I won’t hesitate to attack.

  134. 162

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    164

    “This blog is getting just weird. Apparently the climate of fear is working. We turn on each other in a quest for orodoxy to protect us. Sad. Comment by Bill Best— 2/19/06 @ 1:55 pm”

    Go discuss that with your Republican friends. They started it, and they can call it off. I don’t attack Democrats, but you don’t look like a Democrat to me.

  135. 163

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    By the way, Bill, the rest of us all have 200 IQs too, but unlike you, we don’t brag about it. There’s plenty of Ph.D.s and J.D.s on this web site. Your 200 IQ and advanced degrees will get you a Grande at the Starbucks location nearest to you, but only if you also have $2.75.

  136. 164

    vancouversucks spews:

    167 Have to agree here RR. The right has failed to be what it advertises, and is now pedal to the metal in rape America mode. I also long for the days when — really — some of my best friends wore Rs. When the business of the people was the business of government.
    Sigh.

    I like the cut of your jib Mr. Rabbit. You are somewhat of a “hare trigger” but, you are a-ok with me and kind of crack me up.

  137. 165

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    161

    The devil is in the details. The GMA could stand some fixing, but Democrats will have to fix it themselves without Republican participation, given the GOP’s current philosophy of “our way or no way.”

    I yearn for the old days of give-and-take politics. What the rightwingers who now control the GOP lock-stock-and-barrel is “you’re either with us or against us.” Okay, since they put it that way, I’m against them. And since they don’t want to negotiate or cut deals, I won’t bother to try. Newt Gingrich used the language of civil war to characterize the GOP’s new approach to politics. To borrow a phrase from a certain well-known Republican politician — the Republicans wanted war, and war is what they’ve got.

  138. 166

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    We all need to understand that as liberals we can’t afford to be nice to these rightwing bastards. They mean to destroy us. They applaud when Ann Coulter uses extermination language. It’s not possible to negotiate with them, because they won’t settle for less than our abject surrender. The time for talk is past. We have to defeat them, because if we don’t, they’ll destroy us.

  139. 167

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    166

    “Mr. Rabbit at his blog”

    Once again you are wrong — this is not my blog, it’s Goldy’s blog. I just post here. No one as sloppy with facts as you are should expect respect. Right now I don’t believe you are what you say you are, but I’ll give you a chance. Clean up your act, then we’ll do business.

  140. 168

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Geez, I didn’t think Jim West was still in Olympia.
    And before I forget, Curious George, Ray Moore has sadly passed from this mortal coil. He was always a gentleman with a poor understanding of his residency requirements.

  141. 169

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    bb@164 ” I know twenty legislators by their first name. I don’t just get heard in Olympia, I get hugs.”
    With the kind of poorly formed pontificating you’ve pooped out here I can see why.

  142. 170

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    I suppose if Bill Best is too fastidious to go to Olympia, or the rough and tumble of a precinct caucus is too much for him, then he will be condemned to the sterile Onanism of posting on Unsound Politics and getting slagged when he bunches his courage together and ventures on to HA.

  143. 171

    Bill Best spews:

    Wow – anyone who says _____ _____ ____ to Mr. Rabbit to take it a bit slower and drop all the insults gets more of the same.

    No, Slime Ball Rabbit, I am not a right winger. My family never thought Barry Goldwatr had anything to offer. We all have blue eyes and have reen rads back to the turn of the century. My mother, dad, granny and sister have or are Dem. PCO at various places in the state. We collectively donate thousands to progressive political cause. Not the Farm Bureau.

    I am called a Red Diaper Baby – sure not you Rabbutt.

    But if you challenge Mr. Rabbit at his blog – you get incarnate, name calling and invective spewing – aka. Joe McCartyesqe in your face.

    The expert here, Noemie, substantiated my thought that there were rules about controlling vegitation on property — yes contemplated by the experts — that were dropped – after outrage in public hearings. That was what I was watching on TV.

    RR, it is borderline.

    Tree Frog Farmer —- The Frog is My Personal Totem. You theory that somethow I hould be hurt in a brawl in a saloon is not nice. By the way, I am very strong and very skilled at self defense. You are just plain funny. I know twenty legislators by their first name. I don’t just get heard in Olympia, I get hugs.

    This blog is getting just weird. Apparently the climate of fear is working. We turn on each other in a quest for orodoxy to protect us. Sad.

  144. 172

    spews:

    Yeah, I know about the anger over having patriotism questioned. I am even angrier at my taxes paying for torture, a war based on lies, and the wholesale rape of the environment including actions that have tipped our climate over into a tailspin. I never knew that I could feel so angry. This is new to me.

    What the Righties are doing in this country is evil. The Democratic party has been complicit in allowing our country to become a machine of the military industrial complex. But it is essential to recognize that there is blame to be had here, there are obscene crimes being committed — even apart from a war based on lies, we have things like the use of depleted uranium in Iraq, utterly unnecessary profound suffering in service of profit. That this blame can be laid mostly at the feet of the righties — the neocons and the neoliberals — who have methodically worked at getting our democracy under corporate control and out of the realm of accountability. It’s monstrous. I don’t blame individual conservatives for this. I wouldn’t even lay it on the shoulders of a lowly troll. If we blame the backers of the initiative for all the sins of the rightwing, we’re not going to get anywhere.

  145. 173

    vancouversucks spews:

    144 Hi RR. If by these requirements you are referring to the Growth Management Act…there are some major problems with it. As LEFT of left as I am, I can notice while the intention is noble many times the people involved in the writing and implementing are dogmatic and difficult to reason with. Examples: The high rainfall watershed model works west of the Cascades, but much of the state cannot be defined by high rainfall; in critical areas where aquifer recharge may be mandated, land use organizations require infiltration to ground without regard to soil types and lot sizes (other than as engineering parameters)…we can go on and on here.

    The truth of our modern living environment is if we were starting over with a blank slate, many areas inside our current urban growth boundaries would look very differently and would perhaps be deleted entirely from the slate of developable lands due to their slopes, instability, infiltration rates or lack thereof. We are left with urban areas where infill and small lot sizes are mandated technical considerations ensure each subsequent development further exacerbates a delicate balance. Add calcs for impervious surface and WOW.

    Much as I would like to say all land use laws are just and right, I have to say some are downright stupid (though well intended) and when we cannot examine or reexamine them for impacts – - not on corporations — but on the well meaning YOUs and MEs of the world we are creating the grounds for public rejection of well intended and sorely needed regulation.

  146. 174

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    RogerRabbit@154 “HorsesAss is a saloon brawl. Like it or leave it.”
    Yes. And when Bill Best steps into the fray and complains about being spattered, I have to laugh. I almost hurt myself laughing when he bragged of his IQ. I urge him to try this tactic in a real Saloon. Or better yet, come down from his Ivory Tower, and accompany Goldy (if he’ll have him) down to Olympiaand spend the weary hours wearing his b utt out watching the sausagemaking factory that is our lawmaking mechanism IN THE REAL WORLD.

  147. 175

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    There is a presumption that any Republican who posts here is looking for a fight.

  148. 176

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Noemie, I’ll tell you what wingnuts did that really pissed me off. They questioned my patriotism because I’m not a warmonger or torturer like them. Nobody questions my patriotism. I don’t tolerate that.

  149. 177

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Curiously enough, some people in Eastern Washington have learned to their dismay that wingnut rhetoric can come back to bite them. A prime example was the Eyman initiative that would literally wipe out State rebated tax revenues to the small towns in Eastern Washington. Talk about the Law of Unintended consequences. Those small towns are ‘service’ towns. No ‘service town’, no farmers. Now this might suit Archer, Midland, Daniels but certainly not eastern Washington residents. The Corporate, Wingnut Fascist Right is NOT the old conservative Right.

  150. 178

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Republicans can have civility in politics anytime they want it. The Golden Rule governs. When they treat us civilly, we’ll treat them civilly. But not until then. Civility has to be a two-way street.

  151. 179

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    143

    “Anyway, I am a liberal – about as bleeding heart as you can get. But I don’t have a problem with anyone being conservative.”

    I have many conservative friends, too; but I have no fascist friends.

  152. 180

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    It’s ridiculous that people in eastern Washington think they have a right to run this state or dictate its policies. They’re only 1/5th of the state’s population.

  153. 181

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    143

    Noemie — we get a lot of trolls on this blog who put up a pretense of being reasonable while merely regurgitating rightwing propaganda. Bill Best’s initial post at #16 appears to me to be in that category. Also, I don’t like it when someone attributes statements to me that I didn’t make — that gets a troll on my bad side in a hurry.

  154. 182

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 150

    HorsesAss is a saloon brawl. Like it or leave it. I like it that way. Bashing Republicans is what I do, and they’ve got it coming.

  155. 184

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    NoemieMaxwell@Various Welcome to the rather raucous debating style on HA. Despite the noise and confusion, we do thresh out some ideas from the chaff. It is not, however, a teaparty.

  156. 185

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    120

    “Idaho, in a perfect world, could annex eastern Washington. Comment by Bill Best— 2/19/06 @ 11:49 am”

    The only reason I oppose this idea is that I don’t want to pay Idaho for a nonresident fishing or hunting license.

  157. 186

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    LeftTurn@79 Thank you. My original post was in response to JCH’s gibbering about his property ‘rights’, which have be put in play by the Supreme Court decision. What also has been lost in the hubbub is the apparent Right Wing solution to this conundrum by APPOINTING MORE RIGHTWING DOCTRINAIRE CORPORATISTS. This decision favoring an expansion of the Eminent Domain Doctrine is obscene, but it will not be countered, but rather furthered by the current wingnut agenda.

  158. 187

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    111

    “108, RR, A little Marxist green eyes? Comment by [JCH]— 2/19/06 @ 11:03 am”

    No, and I suggest you find a remedial reading course, as you have a comprehension problem.

  159. 188

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    115

    “114, RR, All salmon fishing must be stopped to “Save the salmon”!! Comment by [JCH]— 2/19/06 @ 11:25 am”

    Has anyone ever told you there’s no clutch connecting your mouth to a brain?

  160. 189

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    98

    “They can’t run crazy, but neither can our desire for all trees and open space make it impossibel to site modern size business.”

    Bill, you have a gift for creating phony issues. Do you live in Seattle? Look around you. It’s nonsense to imply that trees have taken precedence over commercial or industrial development. Drive on Marginal Way sometime, then report back to me how many trees you saw.

  161. 190

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    92

    The main problem with land use regulations is they have evolved over time in a piecemeal and patchwork fashion. Recent state efforts to require counties and municipalities to enact updated and modernized comprehensive codes will help make land use regulations more rational and predictable, yet in many counties, local interests are resisting this process. Intelligent land use policies require looking at the big picture. One of the better things state government has done recently is to look at the map of our state in terms of watersheds, conduct watershed studies, and established watershed councils to provide local input on land use practices. In our state, it’s really water that drives everything else; our region’s economy is heavily dependent on water resources. So it makes sense to develop land use policies around our water resources.

  162. 191

    spews:

    Hmm,

    Mr. Rabbit –

    What can I say. You have a great deal of insight and awareness and concrete information and I have learned from your posts here. I am interested in reading more.

    But I don’t get your problem with Bill Best. He seems completely reasonable to me. So what that he was inaccurate about the blackberry vines? Lots of people think that. And he’s right about other stuff that happens to be more foundational. He’s right that many of the people who back the initiative have real issues. If we don’t recognize these issues as real, we will never come to a satisfactory way of dealing with land use here in WA. It is of paramount importance to assume that everyone is going to have error in their thought on complex issues. We must respect error as part of the ecology of thought, the ecology of our social world. “Truth emerges more readily from error than from confusion.” That is Francis Bacon quoted in Thomas Khun’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. It is a profound thought. If we do not respect error, error goes into hiding and we cannot learn from it.

    Misconceptions can be difficult to extricate from everything else you believe. Any one idea or thought connects with so many others. It’s like carrying a huge pile of laundry and someone asks you for a sock that’s in the middle of the pile. It’s a matter of coordination, getting it out of there, as much as anything else. And if the person asking you for the sock is yelling at you and accusing you of dastardly motives – it’s even more difficult to fish it out. If you’re like me, you might simply lose your train of thought, or you might start cursing back, or you might burst into tears (I know you wouldn’t burst into tears, but I might.)

    Anyway, I am a liberal — about as bleeding heart as you can get. But I don’t have a problem with anyone being conservative. In fact, I see the ideas of very liberal people like me — and those of people who are very conservative — as actually not all that different in some ways. My experiences with midwifery and homeschooling and appreciation of natural foods has led me to that conclusion but I see it in other ways. What I have a problem with is corporate personhood, out-of-control venality of large organizatons, and all of the powerful manipulations that go on with that.

    What makes you think Bill Best is a right winger? Didn’t he say otherwise?

  163. 192

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    106

    “RR, Off you go to Darfur, Africa! There is work to be done!! Comment by [JCH]— 2/19/06 @ 10:55 am”

    You first.

  164. 193

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    103

    “So, RR and BT — spill you magic solutions.”

    Fine with me. I’m doing fine investing here. My house has doubled in value in the last 5 years, and my Starbucks stock is worth 12 times what I paid for it.

  165. 194

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    89

    “So, RR and BT — spill you magic solutions.”

    Here’s my “magic” solution: Since I’m not an urban planning expert or biologist, I rely on the opinions of those who are. A great many very smart people with competent training in relevant fields have been involved in developing our land use laws and regulations. Some people who (a) have far less knowledge and qualifications, and (b) who have selfish pecuniary motives, want to throw aside or disregard all of the work that has been done on these issues. Basically, they are bullies throwing temper tantrums to get their way. My “magic” solution is to rely on the opinions of the former and brush aside the uninformed and self-serving rantings of the latter.

    Does that answer your question?

  166. 196

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Even worse, many of these ideology-driven rightwing liars attempt to pose as moderates or even Democrats.

  167. 198

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    89

    “Neighbors really resented the sale. Her three acres was their park they told her. But they made no attempt to buy the piece. Just wrote her vulgar and silly letters about her sale. Something like Belltowner and RR would send.”

    Once again, Bill — you do NOT speak for me and you do NOT have permission to put words in my mouth. I did not write any such letter, or any letter for that matter, to your aunt — you fucking liar.

  168. 199

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    You wrote those words, not me, asshole. Those are your thoughts, not mine, you sick lying fuck.

  169. 200

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    89

    Now to the substance of your post. By your own admission, your aunt bought the property in question for investment purposes. She did so subject to all applicable land use regulations, present and future. Investing involves risk taking, and she would have no right to expect to make a $597,000 profit on a $3,000 investment by destroying public property, namely a salmon stream. IF a salmon stream had run through the property and the buffers required by the CAO would have reduced its value to, say, $100,000 — she still would have made a $97,000 profit on a $3,000 investment — and she would have NO COMPLAINT. No one has a right to destroy a public resource for private gain. That stream and the fish in it belongs to the state, and the state does have the right to regulate the use and development of surrounding private property to prevent damage to publicly owned resources.

  170. 201

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    88

    Noemie — post #16 is typical of the hyperbole and b.s. we get from the right. It’s very difficult to discuss issues with these people because they have no respect for truth, disregard facts, and spout ideology disguised as “debate.”

  171. 202

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Bill’s comment about government regulation protecting blackberry vines is a classic example of what I’m referring to — pure hyperbole, utterly untrue, and irrelevant to any meaningful discussion of land use regulation. It’s an intentional attempt to distract from the real issues.

  172. 203

    Bill Clinton spews:

    The only one they have. The only antidote is to keep repeating the truism that every time a Republican talks about morals, hold on to your wallet! Comment by Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist— 2/19/06 @ 8:58 am”

    No, whenever you hear a donk say “we must give” hold on to your wallet. They never want to give their own money, just other people’s money.

  173. 204

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reverend — you are correct that much of rightwing “takings” doctrine consists of taking public property for private gain. If there’s no public property to take, they’ll gladly infringe on yours for their gain.

  174. 205

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The rest of you — sorry about the bad language, but I get pissed off when people lie about what I said.

  175. 206

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    84 (continued)

    Bill — since you’ve apparently decided to “stay right here,” I have a suggestion for you: If you don’t want to read Bunny Crap, don’t read my posts. That’ll solve your problem.

  176. 207

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    85

    “Twisting an issue that appeals, in reality, to the pecuniary interests of rich Republicans and making it seem like they – and all other citizens – are once again the victims of Liberal big government communist spending and stepping hard on the hardworkin’ little guy is a Republican art form. The only one they have. The only antidote is to keep repeating the truism that every time a Republican talks about morals, hold on to your wallet! Comment by Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist— 2/19/06 @ 8:58 am”

    Yeah, don’t you just love how Republican populism always makes the rich wealthier and the rest of us poorer?

  177. 209

    Bill Clinton spews:

    Fuck you and your ilk, MTR. If you want to live with a fucked-up environment, move to Russia.

    Comment by Roger Rabbit— 2/19/06 @ 11:44 am

    Wabbit would fit right in with Russia. You can be with your fellow commie bastards.

  178. 210

    Bill Clinton spews:

    Donks are such hypocrites when it comes to saving salmon. Even by posting on this web site you are supporting the power companies which destroy salmon. Democrats/Donks = Hypocrites.

  179. 211

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    84 (continued)

    “Your comment is by the way flat out homophobia. ‘He think he gets something special because he is gay’ —- Good God man, do you ever think, just just try to be cutsie.”

    I didn’t say that, you fucking liar. Those are your words, not mine. You wingers pull this kind of shit all the time — you make up some quote, then attribute it to our side, even though we never said it. Fuck you, you fucking liar.

    Hey Bill, if you want to quote me, here’s a quote for you: “Go fuck yourself.”

  180. 212

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Bill Best @84

    “Insulting people is the norm here”

    No shit, Sherlock! You’ve noticed? Since you’re new here, I’ll explain to you how it got that way.

    First, I little history. Republicans — or, more specifically, rightwing Republicans — pioneered the tactics of ad hominem attacks and personal insults in America. You guys have been demonizing liberals and calling us “commies” and “traitors” etc. for going on 75 years or more now. Right wingers have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN when we call you names back. You fuckers have been asking for it for a long time, and now that we liberals are dishing back some of your own medicine, wingers are crying foul! Babies …

    As for HorsesAss, this is a LIBERAL BLOG which, unlike virtually all rightwing blogs, does not censor posts and does allow conservatives to post here. The name calling and insults on this blog were started by the wingers. Shortly after I discovered this blog and started posting on HorsesAss about a year ago, I became one of the very first liberals on this blog who stood up to the rightwing bullies and dished it back. I more or less pioneered the tactic of replying to Republican bullying in kind, and encouraging others to do so. The response from trolls like you has proved that you are (a) cowards, and (b) crybabies. Fuck you. If you don’t like it, go post on one of the numerous right wing blogs I’ve been banned from — I won’t bother you there. If you come to this blog looking for a fight, I’ll make sure you get it.

    “and it is just sickeningly silly”

    Before you preach to me or any of the other liberals on HorsesAss about “sickeningly silly” personal attacks and name calling — CLEAN UP YOUR OWN ACT!!! You can start with Ann Coulter, who has publicly called for putting liberals in “concentration camps” and “executing” us, and work your way down from there. Get back to me when you have some progress to report. Until then, shut up. I have no patience for hypocrisy, and you wingers have hypocrisy coming out of your ears. No right winger is in any position to complain about personal attacks or insults from liberals, whether “silly” or otherwise.

    I certainly HOPE the personal attacks and insults I inflict on your ilk ARE sickening, for several reasons:

    1. You did it to us, and you’ve got it coming.
    2. So you know what it feels like when you do it to us.
    3. To deter such behavior on your part.
    4. Because you guys started it.
    5. Because I’m not going to be your punching bag or lap dog — you fuck with me, I’ll fuck with you. Get used to it.

    To summarize, Bill — write your complaints here -} [ ] and FUCK YOU!!!

  181. 213

    For the Cluess spews:

    100 – What a bunch of shallow, wingnut drivel taken straight from some lousy Heritage Foundation or Evergreen Fraud Foundation pamphlett. You really believe in that crap?

    Tell you what Redneck – I like that property next to your house. Me and my new wingnut buddies are going to buy it and build a lead smelter or a casino or a strip joint – hell anything that makes lots of $$$$$. I promise me and my buddies will be responsible “stewards” of our land!

  182. 214

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Fuck you and your ilk, MTR. If you want to live with a fucked-up environment, move to Russia.

  183. 215

    Bill Best spews:

    Due to the bizarre tax folly of Prop. 13, California schools lost thier income and went from among the very bestt in the nation to below adverage. All in a short decade.

    What a disaster to the common good. Rodger gives good examples how the wealthy avoid taxes, it is not fair. The key is true assesed value that stays current.

    In Washington there is a program to keep taxes fixed on property owned by the elderly, and upon sale the taxes are due. Idaho I suspect has no such good plan.

    The old adage is — Time to buy, Time to sell — the Boise Granny knew the first, not the second.

    Also, because of the sales tax in Washington, we do not quite understand the life and death debate on real estate taxes.

    Rereggresive as it is, high sales taxes takes the pressure off property tax.

    Idaho, in a perfect world, could annex eastern Washington.

  184. 217

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    101

    Yeah right MTR — land use regulations that have been with us since the 13 Colonies have undermined our economy with the result America never became an economic superpower.

    It’s not us who wants to change the laws or status quo, Mark. It’s you guys who want to change a system that works into a shortsighted and destructive laissez-faire system of land use that, far from maximizing the productivity and value of land, would sacrifice its long term sustainable productivity for short-term, one-time gain.

    Oh, and before I forget — you’re also the guys who want to wreck the environment and dump the cleanup costs on taxpayers.

  185. 218

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    82 (continued)

    We’re paying billions (not millions, but BILLIONS) of dollars in taxes and electricity rates to save what’s left of our salmon — which used to provide our state with a billion-dollar commercial fishing industry and thousands of jobs — and because the salmon loss resulted in part from habitat destruction, these laws are necessary to protect our investment in this publicly-owned resource and to prevent its complete loss. Go whine somewhere else. I have NO sympathy for landowners who want to wreck our streams and kill our salmon so they can make a buck or enjoy a view.

  186. 220

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    SALMON FAST FACTS

    In aboriginal times, the Pacific Northwest’s aggregate salmon runs were in the ballpark of 100 million fish per year.

    The Indians who inhabited the Pacific Northwest for 10,000 years allowed 50% of the fish to escape for spawning.

    Scientists who study salmon have learned that 50% escapement is almost exactly what is needed to achieve the highest sustainable level of harvest.

    In aboriginal times, most salmon reproduction occurred in lowland wetlands created by river flooding. By 1900, about 98% of this habitat had been destroyed by removing log jams from the rivers to improve navigation and draining the lowland wetlands to create farmland. In addition, between 1850 and 1900, commercial fishing by white settlers harvested 90% of the fish and severely depleted fish stocks — decades before the first dams were built.

    In other words, it was the river clearing, land use practices, and overfishing by the early settlers — not the dams — that caused the major part of the destruction of the Pacific Northwest’s historic salmon runs.

    Salmon are a hardy and adaptable fish that can change their habits to accomodate what humans have done to the land, and despite overfishing and the virtual destruction of lowland wetlands, they not only survived by thrived by moving farther upstream in the region’s major rivers to spawn. The damming of Northwest rivers that occurred in the half century from 1925 to 1975 unquestionably further harmed the fish, but despite the habitat destruction and overfishing of the 1800s and the dam construction of the 1900s, the surviving runs were able to support commercial and sport fisheries until about 1970.

    The greatest threats to salmon survival today are oceanic overfishing by foreign fishing fleets and the continuing destruction of stream spawning habitat. The federal government has responsibility for preventing overharvest by oceanic fishing fleets. Federal, state, local, and tribal jurisdictions work together to protect spawning habitat, and much of this effort consists of:

    a) Operating hatcheries and barging fish and smolts past impassable mainstem dams;
    b) Regulating logging, agricultural, and land use practices to protect stream habitats; and
    c) Using money from general tax revenues (federal and state) and BPA revenues (i.e., electricity rates) to fund habitat protection and restoration projects, such as stream bank protection and culvert screening.

    Today, depending on which watershed you’re talking about, the salmon runs are somewhere between 0% and 10% of the historic runs. In the aggregate, the region has lost roughly 95% to 98% of its salmon. The word “decimated” is appropriate to describe what has happened to our indigenous salmon resource.

    This is a huge and expensive effort, and attitudes of landowners insensitive to salmon protection tend to negate these efforts and expenditures. Therefore, it is reasonable and necessary for the state to regulate land uses to protect salmon, because the public does have a right to protect and preserve this publicly-owned resource. Beyond the issue of public ownership, salmon are economically important to our region.

    For you landowners who think you have some God-given right to do as you please — the salmon were here first. By about 40 million years. You DON’T have a right to destroy them. If you don’t like that, move to Arizona or some other state that doesn’t have any salmon, or buy non-riparian property.

    Memo to Mike — there are plenty of hills around here with views that don’t have salmon streams running through them.

  187. 221

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    82

    “I’ll be told I cant build it there due to the increased run off going into the stream might harm salmon.”

    Damn right you will — and you should be! That stream, and the water and fish in it, are public property and you have NO RIGHT to screw it up!!! You had no reasonable expectation when you bought the property of being able to do that, and if you bought the land without looking into the regulatory restrictions on what you can do with it, that’s your own fault and you have no one to blame but yourself.

  188. 222

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    80 (continued)

    California’s Prop 13 is one of the most unfair tax laws ever devised by evil Republican minds. It works like this:

    Individual A buys home for $50,000 in 1979.
    Individual A’s property taxes are frozen at the home’s 1979 value.
    Individual B buys home next to Individual A’s home for $50,000 in 1979.
    Individual B’s property taxes are frozen at the home’s 1979 value.
    Individual B sells his home to Individual C in 2006 for $500,000.
    Taxes on Property B are bumped up to the 2006 value.
    Although Individual C’s property taxes are frozen at Property B’s 2006 value, Individual C is paying 10 times as much property tax as Individual A, on a property of identical value.
    In the nature of things, Individual A is almost certainly older and more affluent than Individual C; consequently, the overall effect of Proposition 13 is that it shifts a large portion of the property tax burden from older and more affluent households to young and financially struggling households.

    A similar initiative was attempted in Washington some years ago. It was sponsored by the owner of a $700,000 home (at a time when the average home was worth about $50,000 to $70,000). It was nearly identical to California’s Prop 13, but our voters saw through the smokescreen of lies about who it would benefit, and rejected it by something like a 70% margin. Its supporters were the usual suspects — developers, construction interests, and high income homeowners.

  189. 225

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    80 (continued)

    The NY Times article also mentions that Idaho’s Republicans want to address the tax revolt they created by cutting government spending and services. Republicans ALWAYS want to cut government spending that benefits the non-rich (although they NEVER seem to want to cut their own subsidies and programs). Cutting would make sense if Idaho had a bloated state government, but given that Republicans have run that state for decades, I doubt this very much. Very probably, what they want to cut is basic education, to the detriment of children whose families can’t afford tony private schools, and health services for the working poor, and things like that. Because they DON’T GIVE A FUCK about anybody who isn’t rich like them.

  190. 227

    [JCH] spews:

    106, cont…..Property rights are for greedy capitalist Republicans! RR, you are much better that that! “Save the world”!! “Save Darfur!”

  191. 228

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    80 (continued)

    In Washington, whose state government is run by Democrats, the property tax imbalance is the reverse of Idaho’s — small businesses are overtaxed. Not to the benefit of average homeowners, though — it’s big business and high income households who are lightly taxed, and who resist tax reform.

    I’ve noticed, for example, that in King County the owner of a $1 million home does not pay 4 times as much property tax as the owner of a $250,000 home. It’s closer to 2 1/2 to 3 times as much. The catch is not in the tax rates, but in how property is assessed. Higher end homes tend to be assessed at a lower percentage of their market value than average homes. Not surprisingly, a lot of this imbalance was created during the years when King County had Republican assessors.

    Anyone who thinks Republicans are the champions of the little guy is smoking crack. That’s bullshit! They only pretend to be — while SCREWING the little guy.

    BTW, I don’t see Stefan, who owns an $800,000 house, complaining on his pathetic little blog that our property tax system is unfair to owners of $250,000 houses so people like him can enjoy tax breaks they don’t deserve.

  192. 229

    [JCH] spews:

    Tree Frog, REV AA, Left Foot, Mr. X, and RR, “Save the world”!! Off you go to Darfur! Show us you really care!! Show us you are not racist!!!!!!

  193. 230

    [JCH] spews:

    101..The simple solution: Republicans: Just don’t invest in Democrat cities and states. Follow the Atlas Shrugged model and just………..leave! No investments, no job creation, and no taxes paid to Democrat controlled areas. Let the grasshoppers eat each other!

  194. 231

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    80 (continued)

    “Righton,” do you not read what you link to, or do you suffer a reading comprehension problem? The NY Times article you linked to says NOTHING about what is driving property values — it’s about rising property taxes.

    The article focuses on Idaho, whose problems are unique to that state and a result of the policies of its legislature. Specifically, over the last decade, property taxes on residential properties have increased 3 times as much as property taxes on business and commercial properties. This is just fine with some folks: “Most of the opposition to altering the state’s property tax structure has come from developers and business groups, worried that lower tax bills for homeowners will mean higher tax bills for them.”

    Umm … “righton” … guess which political party represents developers and business groups? Don’t you think Idaho’s property tax laws favor those groups, and overcharge homeowners, precisely because Republicans run that state’s government? Memo to “righton” … it’s the Democrats who are trying to correct the imbalance in Idaho’s property tax laws.

    The article gives an anecdotal example of a woman who owns 23 acres of formerly rural land on the outskirts of Boise, the state capital, that has been rezoned as residential. She’s complaining because her property taxes have increased from $2,200 to over $10,000. The article doesn’t tell us what she paid for her land, or what it’s worth now, but I’d bet money she could sell it for at least 5 times what she paid for it. All the article tells us is, she doesn’t want to move.

    This lady is hardly the first person in the history of the world whose land has increased in value, and therefore taxes have gone up, because her land is situated smack in the path of urban growth. It’s totally unrealistic for her to think she can maintain the pastoral lifestyle she desires in an area that is evolving from rural to suburban and is destined to become single-family housing. She should sell, buy 23 acres of rural land farther out, and invest the difference and live fat and happy on the investment income — and be glad she made a windfall from her land purchase. The rest of us should be so lucky!

    By the way, her story is a piss-poor example of what the reporter was trying to illustrate — that Idaho’s property tax law favors developers and business groups at the expense of homeowners. And the reporter didn’t have bother to mention that’s a direct result of the fact that Republicans control the state legislature there.

    Thanks for bringing the article to our attention, “righton.” You’ve done yeoman’s service in making the case for Idaho Democrats’ tax reform proposals.

  195. 232

    [JCH] spews:

    Here is the big chance for liberal Democrats to “save the world”! Off you go to Darfur!! Blacks, Libs, “guvment” union hacks!! Show your stuff!! Go “save” Darfur!!!!!

  196. 233

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Since stunning ignorance of the ideals that America work is a requirement to be a card carrying moonbat, it’s no surprise that Goldy and the regular kooks here come out on the wrong side of the property rights initiative. So I’ll make an attempt here to “educate” all you kool aid drinking HAs .
    The argument for property rights is primarily an economic one. Strong protection of private property rights creates an environment where property owners are willing to make investments with a degree of certainty that the investments will be safe. The collective result of individual’s investments is one of the key factors that makes America an economic superpower. Undermining or destroying property rights will also destroy our economic prosperity. Property rights encourage owners to be stewards of the property for the long term rather than make short term decisions that could threaten the conservation of those resources.
    Property rights in Washington are under attack by every level of government. Government abuse of the power of eminent domain and the imposition of regulatory and land use controls destroys property value, and government has arbitrarily decided not to justly compensate the property owners. The numerous Critical Areas Ordinance laws are just one area where government in the state of Washington has overstepped their bounds. Elected leaders display a level of arrogance and elitism that serves only to inflame victims of government abuse and has lead to the initiative currently in front of us.
    Rather than just reacting like a mind numbed robot to the programming that comes out from the politicized media, I would encourage every moonbat to study this issue carefully, and make an informed decision. If you need guidance, let me know.

  197. 234

    [JCH] spews:

    Memo to JCH: As you live in Hawaii, Washington’s land use regulations are none of your fucking business.

    Comment by Roger Rabbit— 2/19/06 @ 1:09 am [Correct! I LIVE in Hawaii. You exist in WASH. There is a difference]

  198. 235

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    77

    “righton” — how are we “screwing” landowners in the boondocks? Existing uses are grandfathered. Nobody is entitled to expect a financial killing from developing their land in ways that harm publicly-owned resources or are inimical to the common good. You always buy land subject to restrictions on what you can use it for.

  199. 236

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    There is no land, anywhere, that isn’t regulated. You can’t throw in a septic system, divert a stream, or spray pesticides just because you feel like it.

  200. 237

    Bill Best spews:

    I have to get better informed as to the actual proposals, but I have never heard any support against good strong zoning for businesses.

    They can’t run crazy, but neither can our desire for all trees and open space make it impossibel to site modern size business.

    i am going to do a lot of reading in the next week.

    Thanks for the post noemie. You are a welcome blast of good communiction.

  201. 238

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    80

    klake — you read the NY Times now? Geez, what’s next — are you gonna turn into a Democrat? Last I heard, you thought it was a commie rag.

  202. 239

    spews:

    Mike @ #82.

    Existing uses are protected under environmental regulations.

    When you are contemplating buying a property, it is up to you to do your due diligence and check out what you can do there. That’s the deal with any investment. There’s no need to be bitter about the reality that different investments will have different potentials and values.

    Bill, I hear what you’re saying about your aunt. You’re right, there are lots of people uunable to sell their land at a price that justifies their investment, the taxes they pay. The impacts on individuals can be very difficult.

    That’s my understanding of the main reason the Farm Bureau wants this initiative. Farming is getting less and less lucrative. So many farmers want to sell out. Environmental regulations make that a bad economic choice for them. So the land stays in agricultual use, but barely. In this sense alone, environmental regulations are preserving farmland. If the initiative passes, we will probably see big sell-outs of farmlands which will then be developed for retail, manuufacturing, residential, etc. — leading to further sell-outs. Agriculture, already under seige, will be even more threatened in WA.

    What do we do to preserve the environment and farmlands — and not place undue burdens on individuals? These are important values.

    There is actually great potential for new kinds of economic benefits in rural areas (I know you’re speaking about urban ones here so this is only partly on-point for you — but what happens in the rural areas affects the urban and vice versa…). There is huge economic potential in rural areas for renewable energy and value-added products kinds of industries (using wood waste for biofuel production) — as well as from sustainable farming. We have to find ways in WA to make the economic benefits of these emerging industries benefit the people and communities of WA. We can’t let them bleed away into the transnational economy, leaving us behind.

    That’s what’s happened in agriculture. That’s the major force behind this land use stuff, I believe. Since the early 1900s, much of the economic value of farming has bled away from farmers and rural communities. In 1910 or so, farmers got about 60 cents for every dollar spent on ag. products. Now it’s down to something like 10 cents — much less for wheat. No wonder the “rural rage.” People are getting crushed.

    Globalization and other trends have taken much of the profit away from resource/production uses of the land. This value has to be brought back. It won’t come back simply by repealing environmental protections. In fact, such repeals will further devalue land after the initial devleopment profits are made.

    Institute for Washington’s Future (forwashington.org) is working on just this issue and I’m involved with them on a related public outreach project.

  203. 240

    vancouversucks spews:

    #88 Good call. I agree some very well intended land use restrictions were poorly considered before they were enacted. There are numerous examples in the GMA as well. Ultimately I agree with your assessment: while all of us LEFT and RIGHT are busy getting hyped up to do battle with each other, the entities who stand to profit from our fight are eagerly waiting to equally steal from both sides.

  204. 241

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    76

    Now “righton” wants us to believe a REPUBLICAN-dominated Supreme Court kowtowed to a corporation because it makes campaign contributions to Democrats.

  205. 244

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    Bill Best: Good point. Take the person who invested in the land into account when deciding on land use. But then the corporate “person” will complain that their “personhood” is being abused.

    So, the solution might be to deny corporations personhood. Do you see any other way?

  206. 245

    Bill Best spews:

    Let’s get productive.

    Here is why I feel so mixed about many of the land use proposals. The ones that are seemingly very arbitrry, draconian and confiscate rights without payment.

    I have an elederly great aunt. I have always loved her. We have never discusssed her private life, but her lady friend partner of 30 years died six yers ago. So I link to my Lesbian Aunt with special felings as in her OPENLY fag nephew.

    About 30 years ago she bought an investment property in east Bellevue. Three acres. Nice land, used to go there to pick berriies and bing home cedar limbs for Christmas. She paid 3,000. way back when. Held it just vacant for three decades. Many offers to sell. Lots of sharks and flim flamers – thanks, not for sale. Taxes had reached per year more than she paid for the land. She complained but then would say thank God they take Visa.

    By a stroke of luck, no wetlands, properly zoned OK, sewer nearby. She sold the land for 600,000 cash two years ago. The builder sited 8 very nice family houses which all sold at once for almost a million each.

    My aunt who worked in cocktail lounges her entire life, working to the bone. Now is very Ok in her retirement. Bought the house she rented for decades, paid all her bills, just sitting pretty.

    Now think what would have happened if the land was not on a hillside, but near a stream. Or not already zoned for the homes, Or , or, or, or.

    Neighbors really resented the sale. Her three acres was their park they told her. But they made no attempt to buy the piece. Just wrote her vulgar and silly letters about her sale. Something like Belltowner and RR would send.

    I think her investment is exactly what we ask people to do to secure their futures in this culture. I want some sensivitely to people like her. She was lucky, but alo smart and very hard working. Saving carefully to pay those steep taxes year aftr year. In fact, counting every penny.

    So, RR and BT — spill you magic solutions. How do we make the system work so green space is preserved. No lead smelters looming in the neighborhood, new housing added because of hetero reproduction and folks moving here and all the other issues that are inherent in this supposed discussion.

    Spill it – lots are listening. The magic formula – or at leat a piece to start.

  207. 246

    spews:

    While I appreciate the points made by those who disagree with Bill Best, I don’t see the problem with his posting at #16. These are valid points cogently made.

    That said, is indeed is legal to cut blackberry vines on private property in King County without a permit — and I disagree that what is happening here with environmental regulations is backdoor land confiscation.

    As with my experience in looking into the Ritter case, each time I have read or heard about a concrete example of an alleged problem due to critical areas ordinances that has been carefully examined on the facts, it has turned out to dissolve under scrutiny.

    While much of what people are afraid of around these ordinances is not true, it is also the case that these are not perfect laws – and were less perfect in the earlier versions. Protest has resulted in changes.

    For example, here in King County there were originally some restrictions on clearing blackberries and other weeds from private property in the CAO. There was an outcry against this, and rightly so. Now people can do this clearing without a permit. (See: http://dnr.metrokc.gov/dnrp/cao/)

    Tree Frog Farmer’s right, it’s all about the corporations. Here in King County people who look like my grandparents sit outside the libraries with tables and anti-CAO literature. Maybe there’s someone playing the harmonica. Their concerns and their situations are genuine.

    The Farm Bureau people are also genuine, working to represent their constituency – though they ought to check their facts and be more accountable to the public on this permission slip that they are trying to give to developers. (I think their blunder on the Ritter case shows that they simply are operating on emotion here, rather than the facts. If they were looking at the facts aside from anger and ideology, I believe they would not be sponsoring this.)

    In the mix here, though, are big monied interests playing all their tricks and using the anger, fear, and political dysfunction at the grassroots as a foil for their own giant land grab. There is a huge amount of financial stake in this for big developers. We sit around insulting each other, and they make off with the money, the land, and our clean air and water. Also see http://ruralmajority.org/

    And speaking of insulting each other, what’s the deal here? I actually didn’t know people were like this — so emotional, overtly sexual, etc. until the Internet. It’s very interesting. I wish I could be an Internet ethnographer. Gosh, no time in this world!

  208. 247

    vancouversucks spews:

    LEFT IS RIGHT, very good points on land use. I find it ironic that land use laws can serve to protect small individual land owners — the moms and pops — from extensive takings by bully interests. Your example of the sheet flow rainfall onto JCH’s lower lying property (I know you didn’t say lower lying, but let’s face it — it’s JCH — we can assume it is lower lying)is right on!

    Ironic though: to present a case against what the righties are calling “takings” they argue for their right for, um, uh, “takings”.

  209. 248

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    Twisting an issue that appeals, in reality, to the pecuniary interests of rich Republicans and making it seem like they — and all other citizens — are once again the victims of Liberal big government communist spending and stepping hard on the hardworkin’ little guy is a Republican art form. The only one they have. The only antidote is to keep repeating the truism that every time a Republican talks about morals, hold on to your wallet!

  210. 249

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    re 84: You’re kinda boring for a gay guy. How about a few grooming tips or something? But you’re welcome to post a comment or two anyhow. Sometimes I have trouble sleeping and I don’t use drugs.

  211. 250

    Bill Best spews:

    No, Rodger R. as Speculaive Control Freak, telling folks you are gay is what happens in the city of Seattle. Just like you talk about your kids, and you old attorney life, blah, blah blah.

    I have neve been in any closet, don’t intend to go there, even for so called rehab liberals like you. The comment was made in response to an insult, just thrown out for nothing, to your buddy Belltowner. Insulting people is the norm here, and it is just sickeningly silly.

    Disagree with me and I will go into a diatribe about how you fuck your wife, then, I expect you to take my comments on contemporaty political issues seriously.

    Your comment is by the way flat out homophobia. ” He think he gets something special because he is gay” —- Good God man, do you ever think, just just try to be cutsie.

    It is called respect, and even you, Silly Rabit, needs a really big dose.

    Your comments when on topic are interesting. The side show has gotten boring. Sesame Street sets a standard tht we all have access to if we want faux animals in dialogue with small children.

    And on second thought, I intend to stay right here. I suspect all the anti gay baiting have scared amy openly gay posters away, or into the shadows of the closet. Choosing carefully their words so as to give no clue. or use code words and inside signals.

    Not this one. Not from Oink, not from you. Next time you are in Seattle, look around carefully. All those people who look like fags and dykes, guess what, they are.

    Get out a bit, enjoy some hobby. Retirement can’t be so bleak that you spend you good mind and host of experiences via Not So Funny Buny Crap day after day.

    It is bordererline, Sir.

  212. 251

    LeftTurn spews:

    Come to think of it. I like the righties argument. If I want to build a whore house and peep show right next to a church, why should anyone have the right to stop me? If I want to build an industrial plant that adds zinc and lead into the same groundponds that feed water to the nearby Christian school, why should anyone be able to stop me? It’s my land!

  213. 252

    Green Thumb spews:

    The Farm Bureau is one of the nastiest winger groups around. It will stop at nothing in its Rovian attempts to pursue a hard-right policy agenda. The MSM does need to get much tougher on the Bureau. Let’s see if it happens.

  214. 253

    Mike spews:

    Gosh I just love how people appreciate the concept of private property around here. I work my ass off and invest in a nice plot of land with a stream and/or a lake on it (because I love to fish). A hill to build my house on. And just past a stand of trees at one end of my property, a wicked view of the sound and mountains. The minute I unload the equipment to build the house on the hill. I’ll be told I cant build it there due to the increased run off going into the stream might harm salmon. If I build it lower down then want to clear that stand of trees to enjoy the view I thought I paid for. I’ll have to jump through flaming hoops to try and do that. IF I’m allowed to do it at all. Livestock on my property? Not if they get anywhere near that stream. Build a dock on my lake? How much you got to spend on an environmental impact statement necessary when you build anything on wetlands. And God forbid it’s discovered I have an endangered ass gnat on my property. I’ll be allowed to do absolutely nothing with my own property. Oh sure .. I’ll be offered some sort of compensation.. Whether or not I want to sell it isn’t important. That it’s MY property doesn’t seem to register with most of the people who support this BS. Why should it? Seeing as most of them don’t own anything of significance – MAYBE the car they drive. Yet they feel they’ve a right to use government to impose their will on me. So that every year when they venture out of the city for those 5 days. The “country” is just as they imagine it should be. Well.. Except for those people living there.. But given enough time.. They’ll think of a way to get government to remove those eyesores.
    And return things to their natural state.

    If the guy wants to develop his property – He SHOULD have every right to do so. If someone doesn’t think there should be development, then they should offer the landowner a reasonable price for his land, buy it, then feel free to do absolutely nothing with it. It’s your property now.
    It’s a simple enough concept. Fair, reasonable and equitable.

    But why put yourself through all that and get stuck paying property taxes on a plot of land you don’t intend to use. When you can use government to impose on others your sense for how things ought to be. Wrap your fascist-like behavior in populist and environmental rhetoric. So you can try and convince the larger population that it’s imperative that a few get fucked so that the many may benefit. An idea that’s helped along when you attach terms like “rich landowner” and “greedy developer” to describe in general who opposes your plans.

    This same group of people insist they not only know what is the best use for my land. They also seem to think they know best when it comes to what perfectly legal activity I can and cant allow in my own business.

    And all this time I was led to believe it would be Republicans who would be shoving their morality down our pie-holes.

  215. 254

    klake spews:

    Goldy, Roger, and the Gang check out the New York times its a good read, you might change your views about what drive price housing prices.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02.....ref=slogin

    The revolt is not yet of the scope that led California voters to pass Proposition 13 a quarter-century ago, spawning a drastic reduction in property taxes. Idaho is one of the states where the complaints are fiercest, and the Legislature is expected to adopt some changes this year to defuse the grass-roots anger.

    Tax experts speak of the “three-legged stool” on which state tax policies are based, a mix of income, sales and property taxes. What has happened, as a result of booming house prices, they say, is that the property tax leg of the stool has grown disproportionately long, putting a noticeable burden on homeowners. And what makes property taxes even more politically delicate is that they are often a state’s prime source of public school financing.

    “The larger the state’s role in financing public education, the less terrible the tax revolt is, generally,” said Myron Orfield, a law professor at the University of Minnesota who specializes in urban and regional growth. “Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Jersey, for instance, are very dependent on local property taxes for schools, and they have seen some of the fiercest revolts.” In some places, the furor has been muted with the gains in home prices.

    “Right now, I’d have to say, the number of tax revolts is not quite as widespread as they were a year ago,” said David Brunori, a professor of public policy at George Washington University who specializes in state tax issues. “For one reason, the real estate market is cooling in many parts of the country.”

    Suggesting that certain types of taxes are palatable when designated for something tangible, voters in California, Colorado and Washington rejected ballot measures to roll back some types of tax increases or to limit state spending last November.

    Still, in the handful of states where grass-roots tax revolts are brewing, Mr. Brunori said that they were boiling briskly.

    12Next

  216. 255

    LeftTurn spews:

    Man the stupidity of the right wingers is shocking even to me. I can’t imagine they actually believe the shit they say here. In case any of you righties who’s mom and dad weren’t brother and sister, here are some facts on David Souter, the deciding vote in the the domanin case that sparked all this property siezure debate.

    http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resou.....ntity/105/

    As you can see, this turd is a republican, appointed by a republican. Turds all around thank you. And what’s really funny is that it’s the righties going after their own. Souter is under attack from numerous conservatives. Here’s an example.

    http://www.freestarmedia.com/h.....erty2.html

    Sorry to interject facts into the debate. Okay Oink…you can go back to letting your brother’s balls slap you in the forehead as you suck his dick now.

  217. 256

    Oink spews:

    You ain’t got no steenkin’ property rights. The SCOTUS established that.
    When Wal-Mart, or (fill-in the blanks) Mega-Corporation Big Bucks GWB contributor wants your property. . .adios.
    Part of the Neo-Convict agenda is the re-establishment of feudalism. . .corporate style.
    Comment by Tree Frog Farmer— 2/18/06 @ 3:01 pm

    Tree farmer, there is only one problem with your post:
    It wasn’t the conservative judges that voted for this ruling, it was all the liberal judges. It kinda takes the wind out of THAT argument, eh?
    Comment by Left Behind by the New Democratic Party— 2/19/06 @ 1:15 am

    Yeah FrogMan you fucking idiot!
    Look at who voted for that decision…Souter and the other goofballs.
    It was a horrible decision….agreed.
    That’s why some dude back east is trying like hell to take Souter’s home for a higher and better use!!!! That would be JUSTICE!

  218. 257

    righton spews:

    tree frog; maybe covered amdist the 70 odd posts…

    The Supreme Court case involved Costco; they sought the property.

    And Costco is a big dem party donor; go look up Sinegal and other execs.

    BAD case for all of us, i think big gov’t dems like it, but small d dems of the old school ought to hate erosion of the bill of rights..

  219. 258

    righton spews:

    ps, I love the fact you lefties finally got Bill trying to engage an arguement….and you duck….bunch of insults…

    I thought you guys were so smart you could argue your case.

    How about a better discussion than “no zoning. i can build a 80 story tower” vs all zoning… to a discussion of how we can rationally keep our current home and neighborhood the way it roughly is (aka no new costco’s) but then also not screw landowners in the boondocks..

    I’m not a fan of Oregans land use laws, but I will admit our rural chaotic development isn’t that great.

  220. 259

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Bill — the “property rights” promoters are lying to the public about what these laws are, and what THEIR laws will do. That’s the bottom line.

  221. 260

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    this init. will pass
    Fuckin with me? This isn’t a school bond. They just had their kickoff meeting.

    About Kelo, incidentally… The Supreme Court basically said to look at it on a case by case basis and apply common sense, and that it was not the Court’s place to say what public use is. That’s been lost in all the hysteria. (Before going into a froth about any SCOTUS decision, always read what a lawyer has to say. I’ve found that’s a good idea.)

  222. 261

    Bill Best spews:

    It would have been totally cool if Cheney had pulled up to the press conference with Whittington tied to his car roof.

  223. 262

    Bill Best spews:

    And who dares take on Raging Rabid Spitle Rabbit —- I grew up in a house where fuck was everybody’s favorite cuss word. I suspect your R. ma and pa didn’t like the word.

    There is still a discussion to be had, this init. will pass – then all good progress gets buried in the mess that follows.

    There is no debate on this blog, just invective and patronizing blather. And dare not challenge the lofty RR — . RR you need to play with puppets with funny names at home, and not subject us to all this acting out.

    It is gettting very boring – lost its humor a long time ago.

  224. 263

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    44

    “My IQ approaches 200. Comment by Bill Best— 2/18/06 @ 11:32 pm”

    Plus or minus 150 …

  225. 264

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    BTW Bill … being intelligent and being smart are different things. It’s perfectly possible for a person with a high IQ to be an idiot.

  226. 266

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    He probably thinks saying he’s gay gives him some sort of credibility on this blog.

  227. 268

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    40

    “A simple fact is that with density, must come regulation. If you are alone in the wilderness, you can dig a hole for your waste. If there are too many of you too close together, the nitrates from your septic tanks will pollute the groundwater. At some point, controls are necessary. The debate is where that point is. Comment by K— 2/18/06 @ 10:31 pm”

    What the hell, let’s let all the trailer park Republicans kill themselves off by poisoning their wells with each other’s E-Coli.

  228. 269

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    39

    “How often do we read of folks who built those beautiful view homes on the ocean then wait for the Feds to rebuild them after the storms?
    Comment by K— 2/18/06 @ 10:28 pm”

    We pay taxes to insure owners of multi-million-dollar beachfront properties because no for-profit insurance company will insure them. Then when they get wiped out by a storm surge, they use our money to rebuild on the same spot. Who are the fools — them or us?

  229. 270

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    34

    “You Seattle Lefty’s love to hate “developers” so much, how come you haven’t fingered the Seattle downtown in-crowd headed by Paul Allen that will make billions off of the Big Dig Tunnel! You know, the $4 Billion Tunnel that will cost $14 Billion. Yeah, that one. Seattle Developers are apparently off of your radar screen huh. Comment by Oink— 2/18/06 @ 8:46 pm”

    Where do you get this horseshit from? The downtown tunnel has been extensively discussed on this blog, and many of us so-called “lefties” oppose it.

    Oink, got a question for you good buddy — why are wingnuts like you such goddamned liars? Did your mothers beat you? Were you gang raped in reform school? Are you alien space invaders?

  230. 271

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    21, 22

    I have a better idea, how about if you buy the property next to JCH’s and lease it to Iran for testing nuclear bombs?

  231. 272

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    After all, according to JCH, if it’s your property you can do whatever you want with it.

  232. 273

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    27

    “A landowner can let his goats loose on blackberries. I don’t know what you’re reading Bill, but there are no regulations on invasive species. Check your facts jackass. Comment by Belltowner— 2/18/06 @ 6:54 pm”

    People like Bill have to lie because they can’t win an honest debate. Because in real life, their ideas suck.

  233. 274

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    32

    “I am no jackass. … Good bye. Comment by Bill Best— 2/18/06 @ 8:41 pm”

    You’re an elephant’s ass, but that’s merely a technicality. Don’t let the door hit it on your way out.

  234. 275

    Curious George spews:

    RR @ 54 -

    “Memo to JCH: As you live in Hawaii……”

    See my previous post about Ray Moore, the Hawaiian Kona coffee plantation resident who was also a state senator for years.

  235. 276

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Bill Best @16

    Bill — Wetlands are crucial to ecosystems, and some of us believe that society’s interest in protecting what’s left trumps private ownership rights. Laissez faire land use policies don’t work because the market and profit motive almost always lead to destructive practices instead of responsible stewardship. You DON’T have the right to fuck up this planet, no matter what you believe. That’s not negotiable, dude. If you don’t like it — FUCK YOU!!!

  236. 277

    Left Behind by the New Democratic Party spews:

    Hello.
    #7

    You ain’t got no steenkin’ property rights. The SCOTUS established that.
    When Wal-Mart, or (fill-in the blanks) Mega-Corporation Big Bucks GWB contributor wants your property. . .adios.
    Part of the Neo-Convict agenda is the re-establishment of feudalism. . .corporate style.

    Comment by Tree Frog Farmer— 2/18/06 @ 3:01 pm

    Tree farmer, there is only one problem with your post:
    It wasn’t the conservative judges that voted for this ruling, it was all the liberal judges. It kinda takes the wind out of THAT argument, eh?

    Domo

  237. 278

    spews:

    Also, if any of our ‘visitors’ happen to be gay, DO NOT listen to our podcast.

    I say again, DO NOT listen to the really excellent Drinking Liberally Podcast.

  238. 279

    Bill Best spews:

    Not lonley at all – I have never voted Republicn in my life. Sill twit.

    My grandfater was an organizer for the IWW – called Wobblies. Silly twit.

    My sainted Grandmother immersed the whole family in solid politial discussions for 50 years.

    i intend to blog as I wish, but certainly not because of your shallow and vapid postings. Vulgar as well.

    I read this blog during the election fracas and found ti informed and deliberativ. Not now, foul mouthed idiots are using a therapy – You neeed to take a ferry ride to Bremerton and yell FUCK into the wind thousand times. Might be bettr tha insulting people on a blog just to feel bold and red blooded.

    Facts – rising population, what to do for quality of life and balance the complexities of the modern multi use environment we all live in.

    Spill your magic solution – waiting.

  239. 281

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Memo to JCH: As you live in Hawaii, Washington’s land use regulations are none of your fucking business.

  240. 282

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Corporate Socialism

    Exhibit A — baseball stadium
    Exhibit B — football stadium
    Exhibit C — NASCAR promoters’ demand for $220 million taxpayer-financed track
    Exhibit D — Sonics owner Howard Schulz’s demand for $200 million taxpayer-financed arena
    Exhibit E — Developer demands for taxpayer-financed roads, water and sewer systems, etc.
    Exhibit F — Government bailouts of private businesses
    Exhibit G — Government takings of private property for private development

    Would you like me to continue, or is that enough?

  241. 284

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    5

    “4, WRONG! What about PRIVATE PROPERTY don’t you get?”

    Fuck you, JCH. Your right to swing your fist stops where your neighbor’s nose starts. Furthermore, society as a whole has the right to regulate land use practices for the common good — if you don’t like it, go live on a desert island. Asshole.

  242. 285

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    5

    What risk? Promoters and developers take no risks. They shift all the risks to taxpayers and investors — and take all the profits. We’re not a capitalist country anymore, what we have now is corporate socialism, i.e. take from the people and give to the corporations.

  243. 286

    spews:

    Bill-

    I see you’ve returned. God to have you back!

    It must be lonely being a gay Republican. My folks still live in rural King co. And they think responsible development is good, as do I.

    Also, sorry to imply that you fuck women. I’d like you to know that I think it should be illegal for people to fire you for being gay, or to deny other such accomidation due to your orientation.

    Don’t feel blown off. Lot’s of people care about rural issues. Those same folks would probably appreciate complainers to be at least right on the facts.

    Thanks for visiting HA. Like we always say, Don’t go away mad, just go away!

  244. 287

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    Franken is smart, funny, and unlike Hannity, tells the truth. If you add a “stein” to his name it becomes “Frankenstein”.

  245. 288

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Naw, Bill your I.Q. don’t approach 200. More like fifty, when we factor in the retarded social aspect. Twits and fools brag up their I.Q. And they don’t contradict their brag by what they say and how they say it. . .

  246. 290

    spews:

    Today (Saturday) is the one week aniversary of the time Vice President Dick Cheney shot a man. Tommorrow (Sunday) is the one week aniversary of the day they finally got around to telling anyone about it.

  247. 291

    Bill Best spews:

    Belltowner – you are a silly twit. Doesn’t matter where you grew up. I know the building you live in. I used to drink at the Frontier Room.

    I own no guns, am gay, don’t fuck the old lady as you so patronizngly suggest. Of course, if I were hetero that would be just fine. Or are you sex phobic for heteros as well?

    I suggested that it was time for the new Belltown, not the opposite. If I had my way, all of Seatttle woud have long ago gone to 40 stories, with a green belt 20 miles wide surrounding it.

    But not by de facto confisction of property rights. Buying development rights and iron clad permanent ag zones, Euro style Lots of tools, rational and matter of fact tools.

    So, did your family make some money when they sold their acres? That is OK. Or do you really think the Microsoft Campus should still be a stump ranch?

    And I am not impressed by your vile filthy mouth. Or your stupid pea brain. All these phony assumptions when trying to post about as issue.

    My IQ approaches 200. What is yours? Silly, stupid, shrill potty mouth.

    There needs to be a new conversation about land use and the right to own property and what that means in this era. It is strange indeed to tell workers and families in a capitalist culture that they must be good workers, savers and investors. And then dick / kick them in the ass about their real estate property which might be the key to the enire future of their safe retirment, and the kids colledge education.

    Simply blowing folks off who do not have a knee jerk reaction to the assumptions of unban vs rural — well, this is crazy.

    And it is not leftist to assume that every state sponsored program has no flaws. That is Stalinist.

  248. 292

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    K@38 If memory serves me,some of these same jerks originally Threatened to sue if DCLU DIDN’T issue them building permits. Unfortunately the city caved and went against sound engineering advice and issued these permits.

  249. 294

    K spews:

    How often do we read of folks who built those beautiful view homes on the ocean then wait for the Feds to rebuild them after the storms?

  250. 295

    K spews:

    A simple fact is that with density, must come regulation. If you are alone in the wilderness, you can dig a hole for your waste. If there are too many of you too close together, the nitrates from your septic tanks will pollute the groundwater. At some point, controls are necessary. The debate is where that point is.

  251. 296

    K spews:

    The land use debate is an interesting one. A few years back, a few homes built on a hillside next to I-5 in Seattle slid and were made unsafe. Owners sued the City for issuing permits ALLOWING them to build.

  252. 297

    Bill Clinton spews:

    Don’t look at me for talking points. I am still trying to figure out the meaning of what is “is”

  253. 298

    BOB from BOEING spews:

    20-

    WHAT LEFT ARE FROM? YOU IMPLY SETION 8 RENTERS ARE ANIMALS — OR WHAT. IS THIS, THE NEW LEFT THAT DOES NOT SORT OUT REAL ISSUES SUCH AS HOUSING FOR LOW INCOME, OFTEN WORKING FOLKS.

    TAKE YOUR NEW LEFT AND SHOVE IT. YOU ARE WORSE THAN JCH.

    YES, BUILD SECTION 8 NEST TO ME. AND ADDICTION TREATMENT ALL YOU WANT. I LET SEXUAL OFFENDERS LIVE IN NEW BUILDING IN THE INDUSTRIAL SECTION.

    STUPID ROMANTIC NONSENSE.

  254. 299

    Oink spews:

    You Seattle Lefty’s love to hate “developers” so much, how come you haven’t fingered the Seattle downtown in-crowd headed by Paul Allen that will make billions off of the Big Dig Tunnel! You know, the $4 Billion Tunnel that will cost $14 Billion. Yeah, that one.

    Seattle Developers are apparently off of your radar screen huh.

  255. 300

    spews:

    Bill Best

    It was nice having you here!

    I grew up in rural King county just east of Redmond, and my folks weren’t rabid retards like you, spouting incoherent falsities about land regulations.

    I think it’s nice that you like old Belltown. I prefer the new one. Also, I don’t live in a rich condo but rather a non-profit apartment building run for regular, non-millionaires. So you know, I’m no urban, rich guy elitist either. But you don’t care because you’ve got your pick-up truck and your hand-guns. Once in a while your wife lets you fuck her, but mostly she just lets you jerk-off on her while she’s asleep. But you don’t care, because you hate “the guvmint”.

    Like I said: it was nice having you!

  256. 302

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    better yet,

    How about I just pave all the land around JCH’s house for a parking lot and direct the rainfall toward him? After all it is my right as a property owner to do whatever I want.

  257. 303

    Curious George spews:

    [JCH] says @ 14:

    “Simple solution: Build the malls outside the county or city lines. Result: no tax revenue for the Democrat controlled areas…”

    Uh…… Do you mean to imply no retail building in the state? If one can’t build within a county or city, where would they build?

    Go join Mr. Cynical up in Enumclaw.

  258. 304

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    re 20: If you did that you’d be building a community of drinkin’ buddies for [JCH].

  259. 305

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    Hey JCH –

    How about I buy the land next to yours and build section 8 housing because I want to?

    Or how about some half-way houses for heroin addicts or sex predators?

    Is that my right? Would you like that?

  260. 306

    Donnageddon spews:

    “350 new jobs, 22,000 … apply.”

    Another great example of the great Neocon economy!

    Keep ‘em coming, JCH!

  261. 308

    spews:

    Thanks, Goldy, for covering this — and for providing the media angle.

    You’re right — it is the media equivalent of money laundering — idea laundering, usually not purposeful, of course.

    The problem is that the impacts are real. It isn’t all just talk. If this initiative passes, we are going to see some heartbreaking impacts on air and water quality, fish, open spaces, etc., as they have in Oregon. As I understand it, not just a few farmers will be economically harmed as agricultural or otherwise open land next to them is developed, further driving up their property taxes — and triggering zoning or neighbor complaints that limit them. You will see lots more farmers selling out and a loss of agricultural land in WA.

    The Walla Walla Union Bulletin has a good article:
    http://tinyurl.com/bb3jj They say:

    This initiative is being pitched as a way to protect the little guy from big, bad government, but it seems to favor another giant – developers.

    The Community Protection Coalition, which is organizing against this, wants to find people who have experienced negative impacts from development near them — or who expect to face these impacts if the initiative passes (My family and I expect negative impacts on our property). Write to Ben at: ben@protectcommunities.org.

    The effects of good and bad development are all around us and we are looking for property owners who are willing to share their experiences about impacts they’ve experienced,

  262. 309

    Bill Best spews:

    There is a big time revold out there on land use laws and all the regulation of ownership.

    like it or not, it is not just business and R politics.

    Oregon voted by BIG margins to stop the regulation ad infinitum and make restitution to land owners for indirect confiscation.

    Somebody has over played the game on the Enviro. side. Now comes the deluge. Face it some of this is pure crap – you can’t let your goat echew on the blackberry vines — in act you can’t even fight them —

    I watched ome of the King couty hearings, and there was real agnst from people with streams, wetlands, and farm animals.

    It felt like camel designers living downtown who had never seen one.

    Very far reahing as well. Many, many layers. Not just zoning for density or business regulation, but down to some absurd details.

    How about a spate of laws telling apt. dwellers how they can legally decorate? For the common good, of course.

    If the city dwellers want a lot more parks, buy the land. Back door confiscation by zoning stinks.

  263. 310

    Curious George spews:

    Come to think of it.[JCH}….

    Isn’t it you that alleges to be a resident of an island in the mid Pacific Ocean? (a good place for you by the way) Where do you get off commentig on Washington state issues?

    Oh… Wait… I forgot about Ray Moore. A legislator that maintained a King county address while residing on a Kona coffee plantation (most of the year) and serving in the Washington state senate.

    I’m sorry….. RAY! Is that you?????

  264. 311

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Of particular note is Noemi Maxwell’s concluding paragraph, which bears repeating here:
    “Political shortcuts and tricks, such as making inflammatory statements and presenting unverified assertions as facts – are not going to help farmers or anyone else deal with complex land use issues. Insulting and intimidating people who ask for accountability, is simply counterproductive. These tactics trivialize the real issues, stand in the way of public deliberation, prolong the personal and economic distress people are facing in Washington around land use, and increase our danger in relation to environmental challenges.”

  265. 312

    Bill Best spews:

    Hey Belltowner Mafia Mouth – I am no jackass. You have become used to beng rude, shitmouth.

    There is something about perserving habitat. Invasive species is a great phrase, explains your knee jerk slime mouth.

    This blog sucks when it comes to any real world discussion. Too bad Godly, going elswehere.

    Who wants to put up wih this arrogant bunch of snobs.

    Anyone who want to study growth and land use change, take a look at the whole Eastside. Bellevue and Redmond and all the places over there were TOTALLY rural just 40 years ago.

    Good or bad – and did all the plain folks get fucked when their small farms sold for 100 what they paid for them in 30 years. Growth will force dhange. Population pushes land use

    Belltowner with the shit mouth thinks the Microsoft campus would be better of as a stump ranch. So much more romantic, you know there were trilliums there, and blackberries.

    Go figure. Or the condo he lives in in Belltown, a two story rat nest — before the present billion dollar building and redevelopment boom.

    It used to be so much better, boarded up store fronts, seeral seedy bars, just love the old days. Especially the Hotel fires that killed so many in the rat infested old romantic Belltown.

    Go figure.

    Most of the posters here are stupid and not just the wing nuts.

    Good bye.

  266. 313

    [JCH] spews:

    Simple solution: Build the malls outside the county or city lines. Result: no tax revenue for the Democrat controlled areas. [see Chicago and WALMALT. Democrat union controlled city sezs "No!" to WALMART. WALMART builds outside the city limits. 350 new jobs, 22,000 blacks apply. No funds for Chicago. City aldermen look like stupid Democrat Marxists]

  267. 314

    John Kerry spews:

    Hey Ken-

    I once told the truth before I didn’t tell the truth. Hey has anyone seen my medical records, they seem to be missing.

  268. 317

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Put down the crackpipe,JCH. You haven’t got that many brain cells to give away.
    Goldy is doing his community service thing by letting JCH, among others, post here. The therapy does him some good. . .sadly the meds do not seem to be helping and they say the electroshock has to have something to work on. . .
    No, folks, you really can’t make this stuff up. JCH is real. A wonderful exhibit of a life gone wrong. . .sexual degenerate Penn State grad, Navy failure, right wing nut job. A walking billboard of what’s wrong with the Right. Goldy is to be commended for letting him display his symptoms here.
    I sort of view it as a target recognition training session. Study him well. If it comes to it, and you have him well placed in your reticle, you wouldn’t want to miss. . .just kidding, of course.
    When he posts, he does a service to all.

  269. 318

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Thanks, Goldy for this heads up. A typical Rethuglican ‘voter misdirection initiative’. Business as usual. . .stealth candidates, stealth initiatives. What I think will be fruitful will be to examine the money trail. My intuition is that the BIAW will have an oar in this bigtime. Anything to distort or destroy land use law and regulations in Washington is the main course on their plate.

  270. 319

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    One of the risks is that you get zoned out of what you want to do with your land.

  271. 320

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    Risk? Bullshit. . .corporate welfare all the way. Cronyism is the only way. KBR and Halliburton reign supreme. This Farm Bureau initiative is a thinly veiled move toward more “corporate Nanny-State Economics”.

  272. 321

    spews:

    A landowner can let his goats loose on blackberries. I don’t know what you’re reading Bill, but there are no regulations on invasive species. Check your facts jackass.

  273. 322

    Ken Mehlman spews:

    Hello Rufus. Oink and I have been collaborating on talking points. Would you like to join us and make it a threesome?

    I dictate and you and Oink… Well I think you know what you have to do.

    I hear you’re a good Republican who’ll do anything stamped with the “R” seal of approval.

  274. 323

    [JCH] spews:

    4, WRONG! What about PRIVATE PROPERTY don’t you get? If YOU don’t want a mall down the street on SOMEONE ELSE’s PROPERTY, then buy the property from the owner at a price that is agreed upon by owner and seller. This costs money. A mall pays infrasture taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and a shit load of fees. What you libs do is buy a Dem politician and use “guvment” to do your biding.

  275. 324

    [JCH] spews:

    5, cont……BECAUSE only YOU know was is best for the community. Not the people taking the risk, and putting up the money!

  276. 325

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    You ain’t got no steenkin’ property rights. The SCOTUS established that.
    When Wal-Mart, or (fill-in the blanks) Mega-Corporation Big Bucks GWB contributor wants your property. . .adios.
    Part of the Neo-Convict agenda is the re-establishment of feudalism. . .corporate style.

  277. 326

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    JCH –

    Everyone has a right to build a home. What you don’t have the right to do is build strip-malls and large sub-divisions that ruin your neighbors property values and cause everyone’s taxes to increase to support the needed infrastructure and school capacity.

  278. 327

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    try googleing

    “dan wood” “wise use”

    some insight into what motivates the person behind this…

  279. 328

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    Wow.

    Isn’t the WSFB supposed to represent Farmers?

    Reading the website for this initiative Dan Wood who is supposedly running the show on this initiative, actully said if it passes this would lead to more farmland being developed (I assume into crappy strip-malls and wal-marts)

    Maybe the farmers are pissed, and that is why they couldn’t find someone to stand up with them? WHo would support something that would eventually lead to the end of your way of life?

  280. 329

    [JCH] spews:

    No one should be able to build anything!!! [This will make existing homes double in 3 years! Dems: econimic idiots]

  281. 330

    RUFUS spews:

    350 new jobs, 22,000 … apply.”

    Another great example of the great Neocon economy!

    Keep ‘em coming, JCH!

    Comment by Donnageddon— 2/18/06 @ 4:19 pm

    Chi town is a donk city just as corrupt as KC. What is your point.

  282. 331

    RUFUS spews:

    The troops probably wanted Franken to come to Iraq hoping he would get shot. Hahahaha Just kidding… wait no I am not. Why would anyone want to listen to his drivel.

  283. 333

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    I’m going to see Al Franken tonight — a patriot who has been to Iraq several times to entertain the troops — unlike Hannity , O’Reilly, Brit Hume, that conservative guy who used to do the news on SNL, Alfred North Whitehead, Bertrand Russell, the idget who played the Hawaiin detective ( not Jack Lord — he was cool and a liberal ). The guy who played Gomer Pyle is still 10 times the man Sean Hannity will ever be.

    Hope all you consevative losers have a sour and lonely night!

    Just kidding! Well , no , actually I hope you conservative posters seriously consider suicide. Just a split second and it’ll be all over. Do us all a favor and think about it.