Karl Rove was Time’s source on Valerie Plame

Last night on the McLaughlin Group, MSNBC political analyst Lawrence O’Donnell said that information handed over to the grand jury by Time Magazine would show that Bush-brain Karl Rove was reporter Matt Cooper’s source in the Valerie Plame case:

“What we’re going to go to now in the next stage, when Matt Cooper’s e-mails, within Time Magazine, are handed over to the grand jury–the ultimate revelation, probably within the week of who his source is.

“I know I’m going to get pulled into the grand jury for saying this but the source of…for Matt Cooper was Karl Rove, and that will be revealed in this document dump that Time magazine’s going to do with the grand jury.”

If true, we’re looking at a possible perjury charge for a high-ranking White House official. The special prosecutor in the case has interviewed Rove, Bush, Cheney and others to testify before the grand jury.

Of course, this does not necessarily tell us that Rove was the original source for conservative columnist Robert Novak’s outing of Plame, a CIA official… or if it was, who gave Rove the information. Novak claimed it was a “high-ranking White House official” and all indications so far point towards Cheney’s office, or even the Vice President himself.

It may be that Cheney’s chief of state, “Scooter” Libby takes the fall, but depending on how this all plays out, perhaps Justice Sandra Day O’Connor’s replacement won’t be the only controversial confirmation hearing the Senate faces over the coming year.

(Thanks to reader Christine G for tipping me off in the open thread.)

It looks like the finger is pointing at Rove, and the story is about to be blown wide open. Writing on the Huffington Post, Lawrence O’Donnell elaborates:

I revealed in yesterday’s taping of the McLaughlin Group that Time magazine’s emails will reveal that Karl Rove was Matt Cooper’s source. I have known this for months but didn’t want to say it at a time that would risk me getting dragged into the grand jury.

McLaughlin is seen in some markets on Friday night, so some websites have picked it up, including Drudge, but I don’t expect it to have much impact because McLaughlin is not considered a news show and it will be pre-empted in the big markets on Sunday because of tennis.

Since I revealed the big scoop, I have had it reconfirmed by yet another highly authoritative source. Too many people know this. It should break wide open this week. I know Newsweek is working on an ‘It’s Rove!’ story and will probably break it tomorrow.

And as Jeralyn Merritt points out on TalkLeft, the issue is no longer just about who the Plame leaker was… Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald has previously stated that he already knows the identity of Miller and Cooper’s source.

The investigation has moved from one involving the identity of the White House official to one involving perjury — i.e., a cover-up. The source may have been questioned in front of the grand jury and lied.

Knowing the identity of the source is not enough for a perjury conviction. There must be two witnesses to the perjurious statement. Telephone records would not be enough, because they only provide the number dialed, not the identity of the person speaking. Matthew Cooper’s and Judith Miller’s e-mails and notes may provide that corroboration.

The plot thickens.


  1. 1

    John spews:

    No way that scumbag Libby will take a fall for Cheney, Rove and “the President”.

    It’s all gonna unravel! Woot!

  2. 2

    Janet S spews:

    So, the crime is … what? Cover up? I thought the crime all you wingnuts are talking about is treason for revealing a CIA agent. So far I haven’t heard a word about this, probably because the prosecutor doesn’t have a case for it. Valerie Plame entered into the world of politics and nepotism, and figured no one would notice because of her CIA identity. Revealing the truth as such is not a crime, but the act of a whistle-blower.

    The left is so obsessed with hate for Rove and Bush that it gets kind of silly. How about using your heads instead of emotion?

  3. 3

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I agree it will unravel. As long as the administration appeared impregnable everyone was afraid to talk. But with the Bush presidency now coming apart at the seams on every front, tongue wagging is inevitable. Rove, slick as he is, forgot the most important D.C. rule: “There are no secrets in Washington.” No matter how hard to try to hide something — someone knows. And no matter how hard you try to prevent leaks — people talk. Just ask Nixon’s Ghost. Rove should have talked to Colson or Liddy before he did this. They would have told him what prison loaf tastes like.

  4. 4

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Janet, if you think a crime wasn’t committed, you have your head up your ass. The FBI doesn’t launch investigations and prosecutors don’t convene grand juries for pranks.

  5. 5

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    And yes, the potential charges may include treason, although it’s more likely that charges would be filed under the federal statute that prohibits revealing the identity of a covert CIA agent (which Plame was) — a lesser offense than treason but still a serious felony that can result in major prison time.

  6. 6

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    And yes, perjury and obstruction of justice (the proper legal term for the crime popularly referred to as “cover up”) are in the mix too.

  7. 7

    Janet S spews:

    Read the law – if an agent has been in this country and not under cover for five years, there is no protection granted. That is what the Wall Street Journal concluded, as has the WAPO. She lobbied to have her husband receive a plum assignment, and someone called her on it. What part of that do you think is noble on her part?

    Just because the FBI launches an investigation, or convenes a grand jury, doesn’t mean that the targeted parties are guilty. Or have I missed something in the American legal system?

  8. 8

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The next question is, will Bush pardon Rove? What would the consequences be for Bush? Would a Republican-controlled House then be willing to send Articles of Impeachment to a Senate trial?

  9. 9

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 7

    You have the facts wrong. She was an active covert agent at the time of the leak. The law protecting CIA agents’ identities makes no distinction between whether the is working overseas or on U.S. soil. What you also fail to understand is that the leak not only compromised her identity but also the identities of everyone associated with her. Foreign governments and terrorist organizations will automatically assume that her known subordinates and assocations are also CIA agents.

  10. 10

    mark spews:

    Janet S — Talk about using your emotions instead of your head! You are completely misinformed about the whole situation and crime committed, but that doesn’t stop you from spouting off about it.

  11. 11

    rujax206 spews:

    I think Janet is interesting. She seems to have the winger talking points down pretty good. Expect that what she is saying…amplified through the SCLM to be just everywhere this weekend and early next week. I hope we have some folks smelling blood in the water.

    OT, I got a nice letter today from McDermott’s office regarding Jim/Jeff Gannon/Guckert cabana boy to the stars (or at least the assistant White House chief of staff. Another hole in the dike.

  12. 13

    Demographa spews:


    No. 9 and others. Please provide your source that Janet Plame was an “active covert agent” and that she was covered under the law in question. I have followed this story pretty closely and this is news to me.

    Here’s a thing. Why is Larry O’Donnell speaking up now? Assuming he is right and is telling the truth (which assumes a lot), and assuming this is “treason,” wasn’t it his duty to step up a long time ago and tell what he knew? What does he mean by “didn’t want to get dragged in front of the grand jury?” If he had a chance to stick it to Karl Rove and the Whitehouse, why wouldn’t he have taken it a long time ago, like before the election? Are you telling me Larry O’Donnell has been protecting Rove and the Whitehouse all this time? That doesn’t really work for me. It also must mean Miller and Cooper were willing to go to jail to protect Rove and the Whitehouse. Are they in on “treason” too? Is Novak?

    I think you horse’s ass people need to work on your story a little more. It doesn’t have legs.

    I know that whenever anyone posts something here you all don’t like they are called cletus and a bunch of other names. But if you feel this really is a case of treason, why don’t you come up with some solid information, and a little logic?

  13. 14

    John spews:

    Janet is especially interesting because she perfectly illustrates the WINGER mentality.

    Just except whatever you’re fed from Limbaugh, Hannity, Faux News, Ann Coulter, Townhall.com, Newsmax, Wnd and on and on – and never, never question it.

  14. 16

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    Is this the “It’s Rove” story you are touting from Newsweek?

    From the article:

    “But in an interview with NEWSWEEK, Rove’s lawyer, Robert Luskin, confirmed that Rove had been interviewed by Cooper for the article. It is unclear, however, what passed between Cooper and Rove.”

    Hardly conclusive that Rove was the source of the leak. I’m curious, why do all you lefties hate Rove so much?

  15. 17

    Christine G spews:

    Hi ConservativeFirst:

    Do you need to fail a reading course to be issued your neocon card?

    The quote on the main page states that Rove was the “source.” Is this word ambiguous? Now, O’Donnell may be lying or mistaken, but reading the word “source” to mean “source” is hardly evidence of irrational hatred of Karl Rove – it is simply evidence of basic reading skills.

  16. 19

    John spews:

    @ 16

    Read Bush’s Brain for a review of Rove’s find career or do you just restrict your reading to anything funded by Scaife, Olin, Bradley and Smith-Richardson?

  17. 20

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    To D @ 13 and others of like mentality

    The right was extremely quick to question the patriotism of anyone who doubted the wisdom of rushing into war or didn’t get behind the president in lockstep, and now is coming up with all sorts of excuses and rationalizations for the deliberate leaking of a CIA agent’s identity as political retaliation against her husband.

    Not hard to figure out who the un-Americans really are. (Hint: It isn’t the left.)

  18. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Yes, that’s right, if you defend this scummy act then I say you’re unpatriotic and un-American.

  19. 22


    Didnt Newsweek uncover that Karl Rove flushed a Koran down the… wait a minute wrong story. No it was 60 minutes produced a memo proving that Karl Rove went AWOL… no thats not it either. Shit I know I read something. Hehe.

  20. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Hardly conclusive that Rove was the source of the leak. I’m curious, why do all you lefties hate Rove so much?”

    Because he resorts deceit, dirty tricks, smears, and manipulation to win elections instead of competing on the strength of who has the best ideas and policies.

  21. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    The reason you’re so confused is because it’s hard to read in the dim light of the tunnel you have your head stuck in. You know which tunnel I mean.

  22. 25


    No– Most of the stories I have been reading lately have been in a wierd font.. kinda like there were typed on a typewriter from the early 70,s. Blahahaha. You donks have no credibility!!!

  23. 26

    Demographa spews:

    Dear Roger:

    So 20 and 21 are your basis for claiming Rove should be convicted of treason but O’Donnell, Cooper, Miller, and Novak shouldn’t?

    Why don’t you try again?

    Also, I haven’t seen any evidence yet that Valerie Plame was an “active covert agent.” However, I do recall seeing her Vanity Fair photo spread that came out the month following Novak’s article. Vanity Fair must be better spies than the CIA!

  24. 27

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    RR @ 16

    “Because he resorts deceit, dirty tricks, smears, and manipulation to win elections”

    Sounds like an execellent description of James Carville or some the other Clinton era operatives. I don’t suppose you were criticizing them in the 90s?

    “instead of competing on the strength of who has the best ideas and policies. ”

    Hmmm, I haven’t seen much in the way of policy coming out of Howard Dean’s mouth lately. Or Harry Reid. Or Nancy Pelosi. Besides Rove is a political strategist, not in charge of making policy. Seems like your beef is misplaced.

  25. 28

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    ChristineG @ 17

    “Do you need to fail a reading course to be issued your neocon card?”

    You can stop the personal attacks any time, they really accomplish nothing.

    “The quote on the main page states that Rove was the “source.” Is this word ambiguous? Now, O’Donnell may be lying or mistaken, but reading the word “source” to mean “source” is hardly evidence of irrational hatred of Karl Rove – it is simply evidence of basic reading skills.”

    “The source” for what? The Plame leak? The Newsweek article hardly makes that claim, and O’Donnell says:

    “I know Newsweek is working on an ‘It’s Rove!’ story and will probably break it tomorrow.”

    The story from Newsweek I posted a link for hardly makes that claim. Of course if you didn’t read it, you probably wouldn’t have noticed that. Read the link, let me know if you still think that the story says Rove leaked Plame’s name to the media.

  26. 29

    merlallen spews:

    It’s kind of funny that this is Bush 41s pet law that jr had someone break for him. You know 41 was a crappy president but he did possess some integrity. I wonder how he feels about his son privately, is it shame? revulsion?

  27. 30

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    John @ 19

    “Read Bush’s Brain for a review of Rove’s find career or do you just restrict your reading to anything funded by Scaife, Olin, Bradley and Smith-Richardson? ”

    Quite frankly, other than Scaife I don’t know who those people are. So the answer to your question is “No”. I think you should have included Murdoch in your list though.

  28. 31

    Demographa spews:

    Good one, Conservativefirst.

    Come on, you guys!

    Walk me through this whole treason charge again. None of you has made a bit of sense yet.

  29. 32

    John spews:

    @ 27

    I’ll quote John Diulio, a former White-House appointee:

    There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a policy apparatus. What you’ve got is everything—and I mean everything—being run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis.


    My, my, Mr. CF, any “conservative” worth his or her salt has surely heard of the four sisters funding group. Just google it. And do forgive me for leaving out Rupert Murdoch or the Coors family.

  30. 33


    from CNN

    Sources told CNN that Plame works in the CIA’s Directorate of Operations — the part of the agency in charge of spying — and worked in the field for many years as an undercover officer.

    “If she were only an analyst, not an operative, we would not have filed a crimes report” with the Justice Department, a senior intelligence official said.

    from Newsday, 7/22/03

    Intelligence officials confirmed to Newsday yesterday that Valerie Plame, wife of retired Ambassador Joseph Wilson, works at the agency on weapons of mass destruction issues in an undercover capacity – at least she was undercover until last week when she was named by columnist Robert Novak.

    So much for that one, eh?

  31. 34

    Demographa spews:


    I followed the links you provided. The CNN article states that CNN had no contact with the White house or the Justice department at the time. CNN doesn’t claim to have talked to anyone at the CIA either. Its source for the evidence was the Newsday article you linked to. The Newsday article got its information from – are you ready everyone? – Joe Wilson! A thorough investigation was done on Joe Wilson – at the frequest of Democrats – and he was shown to be a complete liar. In fact, the CNN article states that its own reporter, Robert Novak, claims Valerie Plame was not working for the CIA in an undercover capacity.

    So we are still waiting for evidence that Ms. Plame was an active covert agent at the time of Novak’s article.

    Props to you, though, Torridjoe, for making any effort at all. That is more than anyone else on this site – including Goldy – was willing to do. In fact, this site has gone pretty quiet on this Rove/Treason thing over the last few hours. You’d think this crew would be able to maintain their excitement about trying Rove for treason and maybe bringing down a sitting…oh, I see the Newsweek article has been posted. Gee, it doesn’t claim Rove did it after all! So all we are left with is the word of Lawrence O’Donnell and…Goldy….and Roger Rabbit and Torridjoe.

    Better luck next time!

    Here is some advice for all you children. When you accuse a government official of treason, you don’t get to base your charge on anonymous sources. You all, along with Larry O’Donnell, ought to be spanked and sent to bed early.

  32. 35

    GeoCrackr spews:

    Digby questions the motives and rationales of the so-called liberal media members, who seemed to know all along who in the Cheney administration illegally revealed the name of a covert CIA agent (made illegal, as previously noted, by AWOL’s dad), yet said nothing while said administration official conducted the most vicious, lying smear campaign against the administration’s opponent during the last election.

  33. 36

    GeoCrackr spews:

    BTW, Demo @ 34

    From the CNN article:

    In a July 14 column, syndicated newspaper journalist and CNN contributor Robert Novak named former Ambassador Joseph Wilson’s wife, Valerie Plame, as a CIA operative on weapons of mass destruction, citing Bush administration sources.

    and from the same article:


    Operative: A CIA employee who gathers intelligence covertly, either in the field or from agency headquarters in Langley, Virginia. The CIA calls the job “clandestine services officer.”

    So bite me.

  34. 37

    GeoCrackr spews:

    Oh, and from the same article:

    “If she were only an analyst, not an operative, we would not have filed a crimes report” with the Justice Department, a senior intelligence official said.

    Bite me again.

  35. 38


    It’s kind of funny that this is Bush 41s pet law that jr had someone break for him. You know 41 was a crappy president but he did possess some integrity. I wonder how he feels about his son privately, is it shame? revulsion?

    Comment by merlallen— 7/2/05 @ 5:32 pm

    I think both of them should be ashamed ot themselves. They are no St Clinton thats for sure.

  36. 39

    GeoCrackr spews:

    I thing Greg Saunders at This Modern World sums it up nicely.

    As far as the right-wingers are concerned, I’ll be eagerly awaiting your condemnation of Rove. Considering how quick you are to judge any liberal criticism of the execution of these twin wars as “undermining the war effort”, you’re now faced with evidence that one of the most powerful Republicans in Washington actively worked to undermine the effort to stop the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Motives are irrelevant (both Rove’s for leaking and yours for helping cover-up). If you’re serious about the very real threat of terrorism to the United States, then you’ve got to be honest enough to admit that spreading the name of CIA agents through the press could seriously harm our ability to stop terrorists from getting their hands on nuclear material.

    Still waiting for more evidence? Well, let’s just hope the smoking gun against Karl Rove and his accomplices doesn’t come in the form of a mushroom cloud…

  37. 41

    GeoCrackr spews:


    So we are still waiting for evidence that Ms. Plame was an active covert agent at the time of Novak’s article.”

    “If she were only an analyst, not an operative, we would not have filed a crimes report” with the Justice Department, a senior intelligence official said.

    It proves you’re either outright delusional or intentionally deceptive. So which are you: idiot man-child or liar?

  38. 44


    is it normal for non-operatives to have a front business that was just a nameplate?

    how would you counter the public testimony of Larry Johnson, a longtime colleague?

    Let’s be very clear about what happened. This is not an alleged abuse. This is a confirmed abuse. I worked with this woman. She started training with me. She has been undercover for three decades, she is not as Bob Novak suggested a CIA analyst. But given that, I was a CIA analyst for four years. I was undercover. I could not divulge to my family outside of my wife that I worked for the Central Intelligence Agency until I left the agency on Sept. 30, 1989. At that point I could admit it.

    So the fact that she’s been undercover for three decades and that has been divulged is outrageous because she was put undercover for certain reasons. One, she works in an area where people she meets with overseas could be compromised. When you start tracing back who she met with, even people who innocently met with her, who are not involved in CIA operations, could be compromised. For these journalists to argue that this is no big deal and if I hear another Republican operative suggesting that well, this was just an analyst fine, let them go undercover. Let’s put them overseas and let’s out them and then see how they like it. They won’t be able to stand the heat.


  39. 45

    Donnageddon spews:

    Lord it is fun to watch these Neo-Con Death Cult supporters weaving their stories to bury the truth.

    The Bush Adminisgtration is done. Stick a fork in the whole lot.

  40. 46

    GeoCrackr spews:

    Amanda at Pandagon speculates on what’s really going on:

    According to Digby, theres’s a good chance that the person who leaked Valerie Plame’s name was Karl Rove, as most people suspected, I think. Odds are the “all liberals are hippies and pussies” thing was just more up the polls blather, but it does make one wonder if the White House is gearing up to start upping the amount of pseudo-fascism they are going to start coughing up in order to justify their actions. After all, enemies of the state like liberals, people who believe in the intergrity of our government, anyone who doesn’t think that the aims of America and the aims of the Republicans are one and the same, are beginning to make a lot more sense to most people than we did a couple years ago.

    Also, the here’s link to Greg at This Modern World, which I forgot to post @39 — sorry.

  41. 47

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    John @ 32

    “My, my, Mr. CF, any “conservative” worth his or her salt has surely heard of the four sisters funding group. Just google it. And do forgive me for leaving out Rupert Murdoch or the Coors family. ”

    Guess I’m not “worth my salt”, not sure if that’s a compliment or insult. But back to the core argument. So far I haven’t seen any credible source accuse Rove of being the Plame leak. Now that the Time notes have been handed over to the grand jury we’ll see if anything comes of it.

  42. 48

    Demographa spews:

    Response to Torridjoe and Neocrackr:

    Again I followed your links. The NPR story makes sure to state that Valerie was an alleged undercover operative. They aren’t willing to go out on a limb. Larry Johnson admits he has been out of the CIA since 1989. How would he know what Valerie Plame’s status has been since then? Just because he trained with her 30 years ago?

    Even Digby and Amanda at Pendragon cover their butts. “Speculates?” “Interesting if true?” Why are you swallowing this story whole if none of them are willing to? So you can engage in more namecalling, Geocrackr?

    No one except Roger Rabbitt has taken a whack at my original question. If Karl Rove committed treason in 2003, why did Lawrence O’Donnell keep his mouth shut about it until now? In fact, since the New York Times demanded a special prosector on their editorial page, why didn’t they blow the whistle on Rove back then? Why did six reporters not step forward to finger Rove as the leaker?

    The Newsweek article itself says nothing about Rove being the leaker. What is Larry O’Donnell trying to say? Will there be another Newsweek article later in the week that contradicts this one?

    For your treason charge to hold water, you also have to accept that Lawrence O’Donnell, Andrea Mitchell, Novak, and the other reporters who were leakees were in on it. And that Cooper and Miller were willing to go to prison to protect Karl Rove and George Bush. It just doesn’t hold up.

    This story will be dead by the time we all go back to work on Tuesday, and it won’t require a VRWC to bury it. You all look pretty foolish already. You haven’t done your people any service, Goldy.

  43. 49

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    It’s useless to argue with these Republican bastards over whether Plame was an analyst or operative. They would defend Karl Rove even if he was Gary Ridgeway. They don’t give a damn about America. They only care about what’s good for the Republican Party and its ideological causes.

  44. 50

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    On the question of treason, there’s two kinds of treason. Legal treason, and rhetorical treason. Even if there’s never a prosecution under the treason statute, if Ann Coulter can go around calling Democrats traitors for not being bloodthirsty warmongers like her and the rest of the winger crowd, then it’s only fair that Democrats should go around calling Republicans traitors for leaking a CIA agent’s identity as a means of political retaliation or harassment. Morever, just as Coulter has assigned collective guilt of rhetorical treason to the entire Democratic Party and all of its supporters, we should not forget that it is not only the leaker who had traitorous intent but the entire Republican party and everyone who supports them in any way. Coulter and her gang had their fun; now it’s our turn, and there is considerably more substance to our charges than there ever was to theirs. My fellow liberals, it’s time to take their “treason talk” and shove it up their ass, then shove their heads in after it, and rub their noses in it. That’s called poetic justice.

  45. 51

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Republicans, you fucking America-hating traitors, we’re coming! Millions of us!! (Cute fluffy little bunnies, that is. You wouldn’t believe how many bunnies there are. Why, I alone have 6,234 children just in Green Lake Park.)

  46. 52

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Oops, my mistake, that was last week’s census. According to yesterday’s Animal Control report, I now have 7,212 children in Green Lake Park! :D

  47. 53

    GeoCrackr spews:

    Demographa @ 48

    First, please dispense with the red herring that Valerie Plame was not a covert agent. That’s well documented and incontrovertible, the CIA admitted that was the case and initiated the FBI investigation of Plame’s outing under the terms of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, and your refusal to accept it, along with your attempts to create uncertaintly and conflate it w/ the real issue (see below), is what makes me distrust you’re motives and/or reasoning capacity.

    The issue at hand is whether or not Rove was the planter, with the corollary of why O’Donnel et al kept quiet about it. On that issue I don’t pretend to have read all of the stories that are out, and I am careful to state, as you pointed out, that most of what I have been reading is idle speculation. The reason it is easy to believe is because Rove’s long and well-documented history shows that he entirely capable of it, that breaking a few laws to “get even” with someone he perceives as a political enemy is within his modus operandi. As to why members of the SCLM kept quiet about it, well I’ve been wondering that myself. On the face of it they’re claiming the traditional “confidentiality of sources” privilege, but that privilege relies on journalistic ethics, which both Miller and Novak abandoned years ago (I don’t know anything about O’Donnell, so I won’t lump him in with such scum w/o reason). “Confidentiality of sources” only has the side effect of protecting Rove/Shrub, so whether or not protecting them was their true motive is, again, idle speculation. Personally, it seems clear to me that what they were really doing was aiding and abetting a crime, but I’m not a lawyer so I won’t claim that argument holds water. I would also “speculate” that they would do so out of a combination of a misplaced sense of journalistic ethics, and fear that, in true mafia don fashion, Rove would come after them and their family as well. As I said @35, Digby has more idle speculation as to why the others played along.

    Sadly, you might be right that it will be a dead letter by Tuesday. Which begs the question: why aren’t the wingnuts up in arms about this, as I posted @39?

  48. 55

    marks spews:

    GeoCrackr @35

    yet said nothing while said administration official conducted the most vicious, lying smear campaign against the administration’s opponent during the last election.

    I don’t know about that. It seemed to me that Kerry’s record pretty much lied all by itself…

  49. 56

    Demographa spews:

    Geocrackr & RR:

    Thank you for your response. Here is some more food for thought.

    Read this thread again. I never said Valerie Plame is not an active, undercover agent. She may well be. My point is that you are ready to convict Karl Rove of treason already, but you haven’t provided any evidence that she is. No one in a position to know has gone on the record confirming she is. Your quotes from NPR, CNN, Newsday, Larry Johnson are all hearsay.

    Funny you should bring up Ann Coulter. She has indeed accused various people of treason and of being traitors. You don’t agree with her. That’s fine. But she has made her accusations based on what individuals have said themselves on the public record. You are accusing Rove of treason for saying something he denies he said, and you have no proof he said it. In fact, everyone except Larry O’Donnell himself seems to be backing away from it. How can you say your charges have more substance than hers? Geocrackr, props to you for admitting you are not a lawyer (neither am I) but Coulter is, in fact, a respected constitional lawyer.

    But to cut to the real point. Geocrackr, I’m sorry, but I just can’t believe that the New York Times, in particular, as well as WaPo, Time, etc. sat on a story through the election that would have destroyed Rove and Bush because their “journalistic ethics” prevented them from publishing it. Sorry, sorry, I just can’t do it. Maybe that makes me a dumb cletus after all. And for you to “speculate” that Karl Rove would arrange to have a reporter murdered for running a story just proves what I have been saying all through this thread.

    The reason us “wingnuts” haven’t gotten up in arms over this story is that so far, at least, there isn’t one. The only real mystery in all this is why the Whitehouse would have picked Joe Wilson to go to Niger in the first place. I will never figure that one out, and there is your evidence that Republicans are dumb.

  50. 57

    GeoCrackr spews:

    Demographa @56

    C’mon, you should know better than to think I’d let you put words in my mouth to build up your straw man. Did I accuse Rove of murder? Of course not, but that your own mind would run to that extreme explains a lot about why you would describe a raving nutcase like Coulter, someone who advocated the murder of NY Times employees by our own homegrown terrorists, as “respected”. (BTW, “constitutional lawyer”, as far as I can tell, is meaningless, an advertising term. There’s no qualifications or criteria for calling oneself a “constitutional lawyer”. I might as well call myself a “constitutional geographer”.) I know you’re just trying to insult us by comparing her hyperbolic lunacies to anything resembling actual reporting.

    You, on the other hand, have not addressed why the CIA would initiate a Justice Dept. investigation if Plame was not, in fact, a covert operative as is now well known. Yet you seem happy to insinuate that her now-former employment situation is somehow a contentious issue.

    re: “The reason us “wingnuts” haven’t gotten up in arms over this story is that so far, at least, there isn’t one.” — well, that just proves the point that you’re not serious about this “War on Terror” after all.

  51. 58

    Demographa spews:


    “and fear that, in true mafia don fashion, Rove would come after them and their family as well”

    Even O’Donnell himself hasn’t gone so far as to say he is afraid Rove will come after him personally. I think you are the one putting words in people’s mouths.

    Your mafia Don quote jumps out because down the road we will be reading on talk left, Digby, or Amanda at Pendragon that it is “well documented and incontrovertible” that O’Donnell was afraid Rove would put out a hit on him, and will use you as her source! This is how this whole Rove/Treason charade got started in the first place!

    Ask any of your lawyer friends if there is such a thing as the field of “constituional law,” with its attendant practioners and experts. When William Jefferson Clinton moved back to Arkansas after school, his first job was Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Arkansas Law School. Until he was disbarred for perjury, he was a licensed constitutional lawyer before the Arkansas Supreme Court.

    BTW, did you see on the other thread where Richard Pope says (1) Valerie Plame has been identified in her husband’s resume for years as a CIA Officer/Analyst and (2) Valerie Plame was listed as a CIA Analyst in “Who’s Who In America”. Very funny, if true!

  52. 59

    GeoCrackr spews:

    Now you’re just being silly… OTOH, that you would again so slyly misrepresent what I said now confirms you’re not acting out of ignorance but out of shear malicious deceptiveness. At the same time, I’m flattered that you think so highly of my opinion that you think it will start to receive wider attention.

    So Clinton was a “constitutional lawyer”? I confess I did not know that. Okay, so let’s use that criteria then: was Coulter ever a Professor of Constitutional Law? Is she licensed to argue before any state Supreme Court? Is she a member of the Bar of the Court (for the SCOTUS)?

    re: Pope — “…if true.” Maybe funny, but insignificant. I’ll wait and see what the facts are.

  53. 60


    demographa @ 48

    Are you suggesting that Johnson’s mind went blank in 1989, and he’s never contacted anyone in the CIA since then, leaving him unable to know what others at the agency are doing? He explicitly said she’s been undercover for 30 years. He knows her, you don’t. How about Ray McGovern, another analyst, who corroborates Johnson’s story and also explicitly named her as an operative?

    You also have not addressed either the front business for someone who supposedly had no undercover identity, and the CIA’s filing of complaint, when theoretically there was nothing that was done wrong by your reckoning.

    You are using the word treason; I am not. Violation of the CAIP may be a treasonous act, but it does not raise a literal charge of treason.

    As for why O’Donnell kept his mouth shut–he told you why; he didn’t want to be called in front of a grand jury and compelled to testify, putting himself at the same contempt risk as Miller and Cooper. I’d say avoiding jail is a good motivator.

  54. 61

    Demographa spews:

    Geocrackr & Torridjoe:
    Looks like we are the only ones left on this thread, and rightly so.

    “and fear that, in true mafia don fashion, Rove would come after them and their family as well” Geocrackr: I’m going to let you explain to all of us what you really meant by the line above. I guess I saw a different Godfather movie.

    As punishment for the constitutional(see, I finally spelled it right)lawyer crack, I’ll let you go to Coulter’s website and read her bio for yourself.

    I forgot that you lefties have no sense of humor, so I’ll explain the joke. Richard Pope has no less evidence for what he wrote than Larry O’Donnell, Goldy, and you. This whole frogmarch thing is a collective fantasy. That’s why it’s so funny.

    RE: Larry Johnson. Maybe he still gets tother with Valerie Plame every Thanksgiving. If she’s really undercover, he shouldn’t ven know know whether she is still employed by them at all, should he? Face – he’s been out of the CIA since 1989 and he’s no longer a reliable source. Besides, he says he’s a REpblican. Aren’t you being a little too selective in truting Republicans? Aren’t we all liars or stupid or both? Will you ever believe one of us when it doesn’t support you case. Come back to earth.

    Re: Treason: Read the thread.

    Re: O’Donne not wanting to go to jail. This is the dumbest thing any one has put on the thread yet. Of course O’Donnell wouldn’t have to go to jail if he told the Grand Jury that Rove was his source!!!!

  55. 62

    Victor Flores spews:

    Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly all are lap dogs for the Bush Administration. Excuse me Ann coulter is a bitch in heat for Bush

  56. 63

    Rain Dawg spews:

    Very interesting…

    I feel for the Wingnutz. It is sad to see such misunderstanding that can often be deadly. They WANTeve in their leaders, they cling to the certainty of the chosen leaders even if that leader does break the law.

    I disgree with these Wingnutz on nearly every opninon they spew but I do empathize for their lack of information and understanding for how humans may, and often do, funciton in large complex social communities. The Plame affair is stark-bald-faced evidence that that form captialism will sell the rope with which it will hang itself. The rule of law need not apply to the leadership of such a system, as per Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, and their top dog toadies.

    Nice commentary here… very adroit from the left. But once again, as has been the case for at least 40 years, the right doesn’t seem to look past their own SELF-INTEREST.blogsite….

  57. 64

    hondo spews:

    Let’s see – Karl Rove commited treason and Judith Miller and the NY Times are going to the wall to protect his Identity – OoooooKKK – what’s wrong with this picture. Doesn’t matter – come September when school restarts Karl Rove will eat Chelsea Clinton’s homework and then the Bush Administration will resign in mass leaving Nancy Pelosi (Speaker of the House (after 50 Republicans are indicted and forced to resign over a Jay Walking scandal (evacuation of the Capitol building is no excuse for breaking the Law (T Kennedy)- as President who then promptly appoints H Clinton as VP – and on and on . Why not? sounds pausable to me.