Kansas professor beaten for trash talking Intelligent Design

My righty trolls like to point to individual incidents and use them as a means of branding the entire political opposition as violent, un-American, immoral degenerates. So turnabout is fair play. Take for example this piece from the Lawrence (Kansas) Journal-World:

Douglas County sheriff’s deputies are investigating the reported beating of a Kansas University professor who gained recent notoriety for his Internet tirades against Christian fundamentalists.

Kansas University religious studies professor Paul Mirecki reported he was beaten by two men about 6:40 a.m. today on a roadside in rural Douglas County. In a series of interviews late this afternoon, Mirecki said the men who beat him were making references to the controversy that has propelled him into the headlines in recent weeks.

“I didn’t know them, but I’m sure they knew me,” he said.

He said the men beat him about the upper body with their fists, and he said he thinks they struck him with a metal object. He was treated and released at Lawrence Memorial Hospital.

Mirecki recently wrote online that he planned to teach intelligent design as mythology in an upcoming course. He wrote it would be a “nice slap” in the “big fat face” of fundamentalists.

Of course, Mirecki intended to slap the fundamentalists metaphorically. At least two fundamentalists decided that was cause enough strike him back with fists and a metal object.

So much for “teach the controversy.”

Comments

  1. 1

    righton spews:

    shoot, i was hoping you’d lead w story on the voters found “living” at a windermere office in bellevue…

  2. 3

    John McDonald spews:

    The difference between when leftists throw molotov cocktails at buildings in SF, slash tires, etc. is that you don’t find a large segment of your side admitting that behavior as wrong and unnacceptable. It’s looked at more like “youthful venting” of “understandable rage” towards “Bush America”, etc.

    So let me be the first to say that this was totally wrong and unnaceptable. I happen to agree that Intelligent Design, isn’t. But it’s also wrong for anyone to resort to physical violence as an argument.

    I’m guessing it’s going to be a while, if ever, before Goldstein comes out and declares that it was wrong for leftists to commit similar acts.

  3. 4

    For the Clueless spews:

    First the violent Irons and now what’s the matter with Kansas? Face it, you wingnuts love it – only the wingnuts who hang out here won’t go to Iraq – they’re chickenhawks. Domestic violence is more appealing especially when the victim can’t shoot back.

    The preceding paragraph was me doing my DOOFUS impersonation.

  4. 5

    Libertarian spews:

    Can you believe it? All this strife in the world over religion! Anyone who thinks he or she knows all there is to know about where the universe came from and the nature of the Supreme Being (assuming is one)is a bold0fced liar. Enough already!

  5. 6

    Apache Fog spews:

    There might be something to this intelligent design theory. For instance: Childhood leukemia is far too complicated to have just “evolved.” It needed an intelligent designer to have come so far ,so fast. But what kind of designer is this?

    But leave it to John Stuart Mill to rain on everyone’s parade by asking the question: Who designed the intelligent designer?

  6. 7

    bamajenk spews:

    Lib @5:

    Good call! It just amazes me that most of the wars in history are fought because “my god is better than your god”!

    Are we sure that’s what any god wants? to kick the crap out of someone else because you don’t like their god?

    very strange indeed.

  7. 8

    LEFT is RIGHT spews:

    These two thugs clearly are the p[roduct of “intelligent design”

    Evolution would of wiped out their gene pool generations ago

  8. 9

    spews:

    @ 3

    I’d say San Fransisco and Kansas are on each end of the spectrum. I haven’t heard of molotov cocktails being thrown anytime recently, so what is your source on that?

  9. 10

    prr spews:

    I’m curious which end of this situtaion you libs are surprised with….

    That the little bitch was beaten or that there are reprecussion for running your mouth in some parts of this country?

    Wonder if he’s going to teach his course on mythology now?

  10. 11

    prr spews:

    Here is the question I would really like to know,

    When this little weasel was being beaten, do you think he was praying for someone to help him?

  11. 12

    spews:

    @ 11

    So you dicks are only for a professor’s rights if he’s conservative? What if, next time the College R’s at UW have their Affirmitive Action Bake Sale, I burn it down? Is that ok with you? Douche?

  12. 13

    Daddy Love spews:

    prr @ 11
    What would the victim’s fantasies about intervention by a personal deity have to do with the accuracy of his assessment of ID as mythology?

  13. 14

    prr spews:

    I’m wondering if the little liberal professor is understanding when one of his students displays a conservative viewpoint?

    I would guess this punk has had a beating coming his way for quite some time.

  14. 15

    prr spews:

    @13,

    Well for one, it may prove to the professor that openly mocking christianity and the beliefs of others might not be an educated thisng to do…

    Quote from Dr. Mirecki last week

    ““The fundies want it all taught in a science class, but this will be a nice slap in their big fat face by teaching it as a religious studies class under the category ‘mythology.’ ” Mirecki said he was “doing my part” to upset “the religious right” and signed his posting “Evil Dr. P.””

    Quote this week

    “Dear God, please make them stop”

  15. 17

    Richard Pope spews:

    I wonder whether Paul Mirecki was really “beaten” or whether he is faking the story. The Lawrence World server is apparently too busy to follow the link, but I found similar accounts on Google. The fellow really sounds like a flake. He embarassed himself and the University of Kansas by his bigoted remarks, which were denounced by KU Chancellor Robert Hemenway as “repugnant and vile”.

    http://www.dailycolonial.com/go.dc?p=3&s=1805

    So it would not surprise me in the least if Mirecki made up his story of the alleged “attack”. Certainly the circumstances that Mirecki is claimed are highly improbable. And it would be easy to bang himself up a lit bit if necessary, to make the medical examination look like it had revealed something. By the way, is Mirecki willing to release the medical records of his hospital examination?

  16. 18

    prr spews:

    So Rujax…

    I am the godless one huh?

    You libs mock and tear away at people beliefes and suddenly people begin to say enough and start fighting back.

    Now suddenly there is a problem?

    Good for whoever beat this clown, if anythiing they did not go far enough.

  17. 19

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    Does not do their cause anything if they do things like this. Now the class has been canceled at the professor’s request. Threats and Intimidation, seems to be a tactic that works well for the right-wingers.

  18. 20

    christmasghost spews:

    richard…i had the exact same thought.
    funny….where are the pictures of all the bruises? sorry if i don’t believe this one…sounds like the cops don’t either……i think if a couple of kansas ‘good old boy’ types wanted to beat up a college professor, he would be in a world of hurt. maybe he is just trying to cover his ass so he doesn’t get fired.
    the name ward comes to mind here………
    BUT…..if it really did happen…it is wrong.
    however…i know WAY too many college professors to give too much credence to this “story”……..
    he was also in the wrong…this isn’t third grade here [or is it???].
    but no one should get hurt for their point of view…. ignored maybe…….

  19. 21

    Another TJ spews:

    Richard,

    Why is that EVERY time you comment on something like this, you assume it to be a dirty trick and smear the person making the allegation? If you have some evidence, present it.

  20. 22

    spews:

    Nice, prr-

    Whatever happenned to the “New Law” of the New Testament?

    Ever READ the “Sermon on the Mount”?

    Facist is as facist does.

  21. 25

    JCH spews:

    It’s hard to imagine “evolution” producing Ted “Oldsmobile” Kennedy. [Mary Jo was not available for comment.]

  22. 26

    Nindid spews:

    Pope @17 Dr. Mirecki does seem to be a bit of a flake, but he has never been shown to be a liar so until there is evidence otherwise I will take it to be true.

    And regardless of this particular case, would you really be surprised if it was true? It is no accident that this type of thing happens when the right-wing rhetoric has devolved to the point where anyone who dissents from right–wing beliefs is a traitor to the country.

    Even worse, the Republicans efforts to mix religious fanaticism into the body politic takes it a step further and anyone who doesn’t believe in their particular brand of religious radicalism is in fact now not a Christian.

    Take a look at Prr’s comments right next to yours? Is he the type of person you really want to associate with? Can you really stand by and blindly question Dr. Mirecki’s credibility when you have prr calling for the professor to be maimed or killed simply because he espouses a belief that is not his?

    Is this the kind of America you want?

  23. 27

    JCH spews:

    Hundreds of murders in Philadelphia, PA [Democrat blacks killing everyone and anyone], and the “violence” thread is from Kansas. Classically Democrat funny!!

  24. 29

    JCH spews:

    My guess: There are more murders in the Democrat “Meccas” [total black Democrat voting 115% of registration] of Philly and Detroit and WASH D. C. than in the ENTIRE Red States of the Mid West. [More gun laws MUST be the answer!!! hehe]

  25. 30

    prr spews:

    So Nindid,

    I’m curious.

    As liebrals belive there are no criminals, should we not be wondering on what the fgood professor did to provoke such a response?

    Rujax:

    That’s the best you have, or suddenly did your sumbass sermon on the mount reference backfire on you.

  26. 31

    christmasghost spews:

    nindid……….the modern far “right” religious fanatics actually do resemble christians. just not modern day ones…..crusades perhaps, or the puritans who made it a crime to celebrate christmas.

  27. 32

    Daddy Love spews:

    Good for whoever beat this clown, if anythiing they did not go far enough.
    A classically religious point of view. Do tell us more about your belief system and the nature of God.

  28. 33

    prr spews:

    Okay..

    here is the lesson dady Love…

    Openly mock the catholic religion and get you ass kicked.

    Openly mock Islam and get blown up

  29. 34

    Joe spews:

    My brother was once beaten up by a large apparently gay man at a bar.

    The leather clad giant pinched his butt and reached for his nipple. When my brother began telling the fellow about his beliefs, wham….the ape like fellow dropped him with a sucker punch.

    Eh…so much for free speech in urban America.

  30. 35

    spews:

    prr-

    Just WHAT am I going to say to have a “dialogue” with a bigotted fuck like you.

    Of all the trolls here…you are the most misanthropic and closed minded. I know you get your jollies saying the stuff you REALLY feel that you can’t express in semi-polite society. We all get off on riling up our opponents…but you are just a crass, moronic jerk.

    One of my favorite phrases from the “old days” comes to mind and seems unusually apropos to this context:

    “Eat shit and DIE, motherfucker!”

  31. 38

    Poster Child spews:

    Jeez, prr, I can’t think of many less qualified to tell us what liberals think than you, but hey. If we are all to be painted with the same brush (or perhaps tarred would be more to your liking) it only proves the professor’s point. All Christians are hypocritical thugs.

    I wouldn’t think he could’ve risen to the chair of the religious studies department being such a politically clueless jackass, or maybe the flaxen haird beauties thing didn’t pan out and he’s looking to generate a little name recognition before shopping his resume around.

    Either way, if KS wants to foster anti-intellectualism and fundamentalism, I guess they’re entitled. Luckily this “intelligent design” non-sense is just a state issue and will never have any impact on the nation or our stature in the intellectual world at large…

  32. 40

    Nindid spews:

    Xmas @28– You start off with a bad premise. Christianity is – and always has been -much more diverse and encompasses much more then the ideas of the very vocal and prominent right-wing of American religious circles.

    There really is much more to Christianity then the beliefs of the fundamentalists (who are really nothing more than religious anti-modernists) that rose to prominence 100 years ago.

    But in any case, do you really have some much pride in your heart that you believe some small sect of Christians at this particular place and time have found the ultimate Truth of Christianity and that the billions of other Christians throughout the past 2000 years are wrong if the vary in the slightest detail?

    Perhaps you do. For me, I have found humility before the infinite divine to be a much more Christian posture.

  33. 42

    windie spews:

    I often wonder if the people who kickstarted the evangelical movement way back in the ’70s look at what their efforts ended up as… Are they dissapointed?

  34. 44

    JDB spews:

    Kitten sounds (aka prr):

    “that there are reprecussion for running your mouth in some parts of this country?”

    Wow, it’s been a while since I’ve seen some blantant facism. Thanks. Always nice to remember how scary you people are.

    Oh, by the way, since like most people who insist on calling themselves “Christians” to make a political point, you ignore the teachings of Christ, you might want to remember:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)

  35. 45

    Left Turn spews:

    Just in case the inbred Bible thumpers don’t realize it, they are digging themselves a hole. They claim they are being persecuted when they don’t get the right to force feed their BS to our kids in the form of “intelligent design.” Well let me tell you right wing religious wing nuts something. You think that’s persecution? You ain’t seen nothing yet. You start beating people up in the name of God and you’ll find out what persecution is. It wouldn’t surprise me if some forward thinking people started bombing churches in retaliation for this.

    So they double team this old man. Sounds like most Christians I know. Cowards. Most Christians are republicans and most republicans don’t have the backbone for a fair fight.

  36. 46

    prr spews:

    JDB,

    let’s be real clear here.

    I am a Christmas and easter catholic, no let’s not get all carried away quoting scripture.

    I’m just sick and tired of liberals force feeding their beliefs down our throats.

  37. 47

    TacomAroma spews:

    Jesus-man say in tha Bible, “Verily, I sayeth unto you, ‘Beateth down those who disagree with you! Calleth ye them by these names: Punk, Little Bitch, Little Weasel, and Clown. When thou strikest them, use thee thy fists and thy feet. Strikest them in their head and their body with a metal object!’ And lo, the Kingdom of My Father shall be yours.”

  38. 48

    prr spews:

    Left turn…

    “You think that’s persecution? You ain’t seen nothing yet. ” this would mean you sheep would have to do something besides talk ar walk around protesting… That will NEVER happen, you don’t have the work ethic to follow through

  39. 50

    Puddybud spews:

    BellTowner@9: How quickly you lefties forget things perpretrated by your side.

    Did you forget the UW firebombing?

    http://www.uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=2661

    Designers with the architectural firm Miller Hull Partnership of Seattle are now considering ways to rebuild Merrill Hall, which was firebombed at the University of Washington’s Center for Urban Horticulture last May, and will explain the pre-design phase and seek comments from the neighborhood and campus community Nov. 19.

    The meeting will be at 7 p.m. in the center’s Northwest Horticulture Society Hall, which was spared in the May 21 arson attack. The eco-terrorist group Earth Liberation Front claimed responsibility for the fire that burned through the center’s main building, wreaking havoc in the library and destroying or damaging years of research on ecosystem health and plant science.

  40. 51

    Nindid spews:

    Yeah, all that scripture stuff about love your neighbor and ‘blessed be the peace-makers’ just gets in the way of a good old-fashioned beat down of a college professor we don’t like.

  41. 55

    Puddybud spews:

    JDB@41: Wow I love how these lefties want to quote the Bible when it is fashionable to put down Christians. Where are you on other issues the left qualifies as dumb when it relates Chrisitanity How about other religions? Oh…, it’s just Christianity that’s wrong. We lived as one nation under God for a long while. Now we are not one nation under God? So it’s okay to wear a burka to school? When applying for a driver’s license? When applying for a job? How do you feel about those 72 virgins? BTW there is no mention of 72 virgins in the Koran!

  42. 58

    Left Turn spews:

    I have a kid working for me who calls himself a Christian. I think I will try to find every shit detail I can this week for him to do as a way of giving a little payback for the professor.

  43. 59

    JCH spews:

    Windie..I missed have missed your posts on all the “violence” in lovely Blue State Cities like Detroit, Philly, Gary, and Harlem. I’m soooooo sure you are concerned about thousands of Democrat black on Democrat black and Democrat black on white crimes. Yes, I’m certain I missed your critical posts on the violence you are sooooooooooooo concerned about!!!

  44. 61

    Puddybud spews:

    Or BellTowner@9: Did you forget your ELF friend who performs these deeds of kindness:

    The latest terrorist strike continues an expensive month for the West. On Aug. 1, an arson attack on a San Diego apartment construction site caused $50 million in damages. This was followed on Aug. 21 by a $1 million arson at an automobile dealership in West Covina, Los Angeles.

    “Obviously eco-terrorists are on a road trip doing damage in Western States,” stated Teresa Platt, Executive Director of Fur Commission USA, which represents mink farmers in 28 states. “We urge people to stay alert. Everyone who relies on the Earth and its animals to live is a potential target. That’s all of us.”

    http://www.cdfe.org/mink_release_kills_animals.htm

    I ask where was PETA when these mink were killed? Oops…, dey be part of dat big lefty tent.

  45. 62

    JCH spews:

    55…..I have a neighbot who calls himself a Jew. I think I’ll treat him with the respect he deserves. [Left Turn, YOU are a miserable POS!]

  46. 63

    windie spews:

    hey now left-turn, don’t sink to their level… Especially since there are plenty of real Christians out there that aren’t like those bastards :)

  47. 64

    TacomAroma spews:

    I’m a Born-Again Atheist and I’m sick and tired conservatives force feeding their beliefs down our throats.

    I don’t want a Nativity scene in front of my City Hall during the “Christmas” season. I don’t want the 10 Commandments in my Court House. I don’t want my pharmacist telling me what presciptions I can and can’t have filled while he or she is working behind the counter. I don’t want anyone praying out loud my Public School, and I don’t want some nut-job religious freaks deciding what is and isn’t an appropriate science cirriculum in that very same Public School.

    Our constitutional right to worship as we choose is also a right to not worship if we choose. You and I both have a right to be free from people forcing their religion, or lack of it, upon us.

  48. 65

    yearight spews:

    If the promised advances in biotech allow for culling disease, sexual preference, and political preference pre-birth, what is the evolutionary trail going to look like in 1000 years?

  49. 66

    Puddybud spews:

    BellTowner@9: Are these guys/gals friends of yours?

    Craig Rosebraugh, Kevin Kjonaas, Rod Coronado, Robin Webb, Leslie James Pickering, Josh Harper, David Barbarash, Dave Foreman, Ronnie Lee

    Animal Liberation Front (ALF), Earth Liberation Front (ELF), Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty (SHAC)

    “PETA has openly supported ALF: in 1995, the organization gave $45,200 to the legal defense of Rod Coronado, while co-founder Ingrid Newkirk applauds ALF’s efforts in two of her books.

    During the past two decades, radical environmental and animal rights groups have claimed responsibility for hundreds of crimes and acts of terrorism, including arson, bombings, vandalism and harassment, causing more than $100 million in damage.

    In a March 2004 television interview, Pickering underscored this ideological expansion: “Violence is a necessary element of an oppressive struggle…to overthrow an oppressive government…[ELF is] only part of a larger building revolutionary movement that won’t stop until it has a successful overthrow of this country.” ”

    Yeah, your friends from the left!!!

  50. 67

    prr spews:

    Hey windie, let’s just hope that some of those fake christians keep doing what they are doing and more liberal beatings happen

  51. 68

    Heath spews:

    prr-

    “I am a Christmas and easter catholic, no let’s not get all carried away quoting scripture.

    “I’m just sick and tired of liberals force feeding their beliefs down our throats

    WHAT??? You make no sense. Tell me: who is it that is pushing Intelligent Design. Who is force-feeding their beliefs here? Not the liberals, prr. The weak-minded wannabe-sheep.

    Baaaa! Baaaa!

  52. 69

    JCH spews:

    I’d lose very little sleep if people strated killing liberals

    Comment by prr — 12/6/05 @ 11:12 am [PRR…..Save the ammo. Export them to Zimbabwe where many of these “progressives” will feel more “comfortable”!!]

  53. 70

    Michael spews:

    @7 It just amazes me that most of the wars in history are fought because “my god is better than your god”!

    Most wars are fought over scarce resources/land. The religion thing is just for PR.

  54. 71

    Puddybud spews:

    So your ELF & ALF friends succeed in overthrow of the country. Now you have anarchy. Wait, that’s the express aim of the ACLU, right BellwTowner? Next your good friends from the Middle East, the Islamofascists arrive and then slit your ELF & ALF friends throats. Now you live under Sharia law. See you free speech. See you US Constitution/Bill of Rights. Naah, you lefties just don’t get it!

  55. 72

    prr spews:

    Heath….

    How isthe liberal agenda of attacking religion, not pushing a religious beliefs down ones throat?

  56. 73

    JCH spews:

    America is sooooooooo evil under Bush that many American blacks are swimming for Haiti and Cuba!!! [hehe….Democrats: shit for brains parasites]

  57. 74

    Heath spews:

    prr-

    There is no liberal agenda to attack religion. There is a liberal agenda to keep religion out of public-funded schools.

    Got a problem with that?

    I’m a religious liberal, prr, but I don’t press for the schools we both pay for to teach your kids what I believe. I press for them to teach kids no beliefs.

  58. 76

    Heath spews:

    I think you’re out of your head. You right-wing types see us wanting religious freedom as an attack on your beliefs. What we want is: to each their own. People have the right to be Satanists as long as they don’t hurt us. If they raise their kids that way, it’s not the state’s business. It may be bad, and maybe something should be done about it, but not by the state.

  59. 77

    Puddybud spews:

    Prr: While I don’t agree with your sentiments and how you express them, I understand the premise.

    I would ask Heath, How different is you pushing your belief system on us any different that us trying to keep the status quo? Why is your argument so great? Whay makes your thoughts my thoughts? Why if we disagree with you we are the “fascists”, “nazis”, etc? You side is the one trying to stifle any Christian thought in today’s society.

  60. 79

    Heath spews:

    Christian thought does not belong in school. Period. It’s against the law, for good reason, and at the planning of the Founding Fathers.

    The status quo is that religion is not tought in public schools. That’s the law, and it’s right.

  61. 80

    Larry the Urbanite spews:

    prr @ 31: Thank you PRR, for drawing the correlation between these two terroist groups before I got to it. Fundamentalism (Christian or Islamic) ought to be considered a disease, to be treated with the most forceful form of psychotherapy and potent drugs. And if that doesn’t work, martyr ‘em all, that’ll make them and us happy.

    Also, don’t believe all the hype about “going after the terroists”. If the gov’t was really serious, all the Christian fundies in this country would be under investigation, not just the Islamic ones.

  62. 81

    JCH spews:

    If the person doing the beating was black, would we be allowed to discuss this “incident”? What if the perps was black, but the prof was Jewish? What if the victim was a Republican? Would we be allowed to comment? What if the black “perp” was Jewish? Would Goldy have listed this thread?? [hehe….Democrats: all hyphenated Americans…….all “victims”]

  63. 82

    Puddybud spews:

    Heath, you already have religious freedom. It’s your side trying to kill religious freedom. You already have the freedom the be a Christian, Satanist, Wiccan, Hindu, Muslim, Confucianist, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh, Agnostic or even an Athiest. This has been the American way until the last 20 years when the ACLU decided to take down religous symbols, some around for hundreds of years in stupid law suits. The Nativity Scene is bad karma. (Oops… Clueless is bad karma!) You can’t say Merry Christmas in a Sears? What happened to the First Amendment right to free speech? Oh that’s right…, it only applies to your side of the argument!

    Merry Christmas ASSes!

  64. 83

    For the Clueless spews:

    Freep @ 64

    So your ELF & ALF friends succeed in overthrow of the country.

    Why don’t take that “sharp knife” from the drawer of life that you compared yourself to in a previous thread, sharpened by wingnut ideology, and sit on it.

    Not only will you achieve the ultimate orgasm of your life, it will enhance the potency that you bore us all to tears bragging about.

  65. 84

    Larry the Urbanite spews:

    Pope @ 16 and christmasghost @ 20:

    If you had just inserted, at the beginning of ur first post on the subject: “I really hope this guy is alright. No one should be beaten for voicing his views. That being said…” But you couldn’t be bothered could you? To busy persecuting the alleged victim. Conservatives use this tactic all the time and it’s just disgusting. And, the fact that you voiced this without even waiting for the story to develop, finding out more about the guy, seeing if there actually were any inconsistancies (that someone else besides you agreed with), etc, just shows what kind of people you are.

    Anyone else want to see these guys banned from the board? I’d love to have discussions about this stuff, but this vitriol just poisons the whole process.

  66. 85

    Heath spews:

    Puddybud –

    What you wrote in 81 is meaningless and stupid.

    We’re talking about public property and public funding, like schools. We aren’t talking about Sears, whatever you brought that up for. Weird. Are you drunk?

    As for the Nativity Scene, you can have it on private property. Put it on the property we share and you’re the one force-feeding beliefs, again. The courthouse lawn is ours, not yours, not mine. I won’t put my religious ornaments there and you won’t either. That’s the way it works.

    As for Sears, whatever a business does with their private property is their business. And I’m not sure what you said about them is true, it actually doesn’t pass the sniff test.

    Like most of what right-wingers say, your words generally don’t pass a sniff test.

  67. 86

    WTF spews:

    I will not support ALF, ELF, Peta. What they do is wrong. However how many people have those organizations killed? There are right wing anti abortion groups who put bounties on people and have killed people. Prior to 9/11 the worst case of terrorism (Oklahoma City) was conducted by right wing terrorists.

  68. 87

    Puddybud spews:

    BellTowner@71: What SHIT am I spewing. I am using your side’s arguments against you. Are you hurt I found the ELF’s “Communist” Manifesto? They said it, your big tent doesn’t refute it so you project your hatred on me. Try again lefty fundy!

    Show me where our founding fathers said religion is NOT to be taught in public schools!!! I am not advocating this, but if my children want to say a prayer in school at their desk why would they be singled out? Where is their First Amendment right? How are they making a law practicing their belief system? It’s your side trying to shove this down our throats!!!

  69. 88

    Heath spews:

    Puddybud –

    Jefferson put it in the First Amendment. Congress shall make no law abridging the practice of religion. That means Congress shall make no law requiring Buddhists to listen to Christian prayers. Congress already made laws requiring Buddhist kids to attend public schools. That means Congress isn’t allowed to make kids attending public schools listen to Christian prayers. Got that? The logic of the first amendment make sense to you now?

    The first amendment doesn’t give you the freedom to preach on public funds — it prohibits it.

  70. 89

    Heath spews:

    Puddybud –

    This has nothing to do with kids wanting to say prayers at their desks. This has to do with kids being instructed to say prayers. Completely different. But you know that. You aren’t trying to speak the truth. You’re being religious.

  71. 90

    Heath spews:

    Here is the relavant sentence fragment, Puddybud:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    That means Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of all religions. That includes religions where the “free exercise” would require leaving the room during Christian prayers.

  72. 91

    Larry the Urbanite spews:

    And another thing…..(LOL): Seems llike we are slipping into the 1500’s. I reading about Mary Tudor’s reign. Wow, what a bloodbath. And they were ALL christians! We (European descendents) finally outgrew all that stuff, but only after hundreds of years of war. the conservatives seem to want to wage this struggle all over again, but with Islam as the boogey man. Tell you what: If you want to fight people over how many angels can fit on the head of pin, go ahead, but leavve me and my schools out of it. I’d like to stay modern (electricity, medicine, warm dry houses, etc, all that’s due to the Enlightenment)

  73. 92

    proud leftist spews:

    The Republican power brokers, Rove et al, manipulate social conservatives so that they see themselves as victims of some sort of liberal conspiracy, perpetrated by the media, Hollywood, the intelligentsia, whoever. In this way, the social cons vote to support the Republican Party, even though in so doing they vote to promote corporate interests and against their own economic interests. Get these rightwingers, like the Kansas thugs and prr, all riled up about having liberal values jammed down their throats, and these idiots will bend over and take anything–without lubrication, too–that the Republican leadership gives them. Somehow , these dipshits fail to recognize that their own party is in charge of just about everything in this country and liberals are powerless to victimize anybody or to jam anything down anyone’s throat. Anyone who believes that Christ would want a follower to beat up someone for advocating for “intelligent design” has no concept of the Gospel message. Separation of church and state is necessary not just to protect the government from religion, but to protect religion from government.

  74. 93

    spews:

    Heath-

    Logic is useless on the Pudd. Actually, reasonable aguements and actual proof that he’s wrong don’t help either.

    But it IS fun to see what kind of irrelevant bullshit he pops up with. Kinda like looney Aunt Ethel ya’ know?

  75. 94

    WTF spews:

    2nd comment. Intelligent Design is NOT science. I have a theory that the earth was used as a rest stop for aliens and out of their feces life began. Can I prove it scientifically, No. However neither can people who preach intelligent design.

  76. 95

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Fuck. What is with the outright fascists in this thread?

    Here’s a clue, nimrods. Osama Bin Forgotten is a Terrorist. Krar is a terrorist. McVeigh was a terrorist. Green extremists haven’t killed anyone, unlike right-wing extremists in this country. If you want to argue on those grounds, you will lose every time.

    The Founding Fathers arn’t here to hold your hand, puddybud. Religion can be taught and talked about in public schools. What can’t be done is christian evangelism, which is usually what people mean when they say teaching religion. In fact, most liberals you ask would actually be for informative classes on religion and history.

    If you lot had any idea what persecution is, you would have a LOT more respect for tolerance. The Puritans and other early religious groups beat the pants off you guys as far as faith is concerned, but because they had been on the short end of the stick, THEY had a GODDAMN CLUE!

  77. 96

    Heath spews:

    I think a point that so many people miss is that Freedom from Religion is also Freedom of Religion.

  78. 97

    Puddybud spews:

    I guess you ASSes forgot this in Kent:

    “Students would be permitted to say nondisruptive prayers in the classroom, and Christmas trees could be part of holiday displays in school hallways, according to some proposed policy changes for the Kent School District near Seattle, Wash. These changes would replace strict guidelines the district put into effect in 2000 that banned ‘religious symbols’ that some students and teachers found offensive.
    More than 1,000 people attended public forums, many of them criticizing the district as ‘too politically correct’ and ‘un-American.’ The issue got so heated that schools Superintendent Barbara Grohe placed a moratorium on the guidelines and a committee was charged with defining new ones.” (Seattle Times & ReligionToday. 7/2/2001.)”

    Or this

    “Avoiding a potentially messy court battle, the Kettle Moraine School Board (Milwaukee, WI) agreed on 8/27/2001 to allow a student to hand out religious Valentine’s Day cards in the future and to publicly apologize for past actions. The agreement comes as part of an effort to settle a federal lawsuit against the Waukesha County school district.
    The board’s actions are in response to a lawsuit filed earlier this year after school officials refused to allow a Cushing Elementary School second-grader to distribute valentines with Christian messages and made her take back religious tracts she passed out for Halloween. The Liberty Counsel, a Florida-based Christian liberty organization filed the lawsuit on behalf of the student.

  79. 98

    Puddybud spews:

    I just love the Internet. It allows me to refresh my memory and prove that you ASSes forget many things. Or is it called selective memory syndrome?

  80. 100

    Heath spews:

    Puddybud, I don’t see your point, yet. Let’s stick to the Kent School District guidelines, to keep it doable here in this narrow window. What point were you trying to make by quoting that story?

  81. 101

    Puddybud spews:

    Are you saying McVeigh was a Christian Fundy? I thought he was an anarchist. Anarchists are NOT Christian Fundies!

  82. 103

    Puddybud spews:

    HeathASS: Private Prayer said by students in school! Did you forget what you just said above; prove to me that students could not say private prayers at their desks? Hmmm… selective memory disease, now of the 5 minute variety?

  83. 104

    Puddybud spews:

    HeathASS: Thanks for the link. In the Bible MAGOG is equated with Satan. It’s a Satanist extreme righy group. Thanks for the try though!

  84. 105

    Larry the Urbanite spews:

    Yeah pudd’s point is proving goldy’s statement atthe beginning of his story! LOL

  85. 106

    Heath spews:

    Puddybud, try to write something complete. What you quoted was not limited to “private prayers at their desks.” What you quoted read that students could “say nondisruptive prayers in the classroom.”

    The difference between “private” and “say nondisruptively” is your lie in post 103. The way you stretch things is dishonest.

    You also omit the hallway decorations, and focus on the glowing language about students getting their way. *snort* Which students? All of them?

  86. 107

    Heath spews:

    You know, it always remind me when I argue with Christians: If Christians are really so religious, why do they lie so much?

    Maybe the truth is that most Christians area really just weak-minded people who are so afraid of death that they need to believe that Daddy Ghost will take them home. Maybe they need to believe it so much that they need everybody to believe the same thing. You know, to make them feel validated in their beliefs.

    Just a thought.

  87. 108

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Goddamn but your premises are warped. Lefties=bad and bad=lefty? Let me guess, The Nazis were leftists? And McVeigh? And Osama?

    The world’s not so simple as that!

    Stalin and Mao were leftists, but they were authoritarian extremists. You will find no support of them among the American left. But we can admit they were on the left. The current conservative Movement has for some reason an urge to label anything and everything it doesn’t agree with as liberals and leftists. It cannot admit evil. It cannot admit wrong. It is perfect. Conservative doctrine never fails. People fail conservative doctrine. As the money quote goes, it’s a lot like communism in that respect.

  88. 109

    prr spews:

    Heath @106…

    Bullshit.

    If that’s the case, put your kids to work over the christmas holidays….

  89. 110

    spews:

    Someone secure in their beliefs doesn’t NEED to jam their pov down peoples throats.

    What happened to “By their works shall ye know them.” or “And you’ll know they are Christians by their love”.

  90. 111

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Heath, that’s long been my thought. The whole fundie incursion revolves around the fear of death.

  91. 112

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Richard Pope–
    I tend to agree with you….this guy is a flake and I wouldn’t doubt it for a second if he made this up.
    Perhaps he will go to Battle-Ax Irons Lie Detector guy???
    Just like Goldy to run with the word of some flake with no independent verification of what happened.
    I hope the cops grill the shit out of this guy and trip him up on his “story”!

  92. 113

    windie spews:

    mr. irrelevant is so bitter…

    Still mad that his guy got caught with his pants down!

    If he’s faking it, it’ll come up soon enough. You guys are doing the stupid rightie ‘I want it to be true, therefore it must be!’ thing again… Give it up

  93. 114

    prr spews:

    “What happened to “By their works shall ye know them.” or “And you’ll know they are Christians by their love”.”

    It was replaced with punch, kick, stomp…. Take that you liberal piece of shit

  94. 115

    Annoy a liberal: Work hard and be happy spews:

    Heath writes: Jefferson put it in the First Amendment. Congress shall make no law abridging the practice of religion. That means Congress shall make no law requiring Buddhists to listen to Christian prayers. Congress already made laws requiring Buddhist kids to attend public schools. That means Congress isn’t allowed to make kids attending public schools listen to Christian prayers. Got that? The logic of the first amendment make sense to you now?

    =============
    Also writes: No Christian thought should be in our schools:

    =====================

    Freedom of religion is one of the most sacred aspects of this country and our consitution. But…it is freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. If my neighbor has a different belief it is his belief and my responsibility to protect his freedom as well as his to protect mine. That’s what it is all about.

    Contrary to your desire of having no christian thought in our schools, are you aware that the foundation of our country is based on christian throught ? That the foundation of our laws is based on judeo-christian thinking and moral understanding. If that law, our constitution, etc is tought in school, christian thought is there. Do you want to stop this ? I know there are already quite a few schools where this is no longer taught, but…we all have seen the consequences.

    And no, Congress does not require buddist children to go to public school. Congress requires children to go to school, no matter what their parents or the children believe in. And then there are private schools too. The one (religion) has nothing to do with the other (school requirement).

    But what many of you on the left seem to mix is “religion” and culture. A display of a nativity scene in front of a court house etc is not forcing religion on someone, it’s valuing the celebration a majority or minority does. Why are their constant complaints about institutions like schools having Christmas trees or giving trees, but there is no complaint if one displays non-christian symbols ? (See the complaint about the giving tree in Medina today, where the school was forced to take down the tree put up to help children in need. Or the KC library proudly displaying the season of Ramadan in their publicly funded display cases). Could it be that there is more tolerance and inclusion by the people who actually care and celebrate Christmas than the people who don’t ?

    This nation is founded on the belief of equality and openess as well as inclusion. Christmas is a big part of our culture and taking it away the way it is currently handled, is telling people their culture and beliefs doesn’t matter. But oh, you have to support this or that. Let’s celebrate and value all religions, you and the people you love will benefit from it. It also will increase the understanding of each other.
    Merry Christmas, Happy Hannuka, Denali, Kwanza etc.

  95. 116

    Daddy Love spews:

    While it’s true that ELF has set several fires and “claimed responsibility” for thers, the “West Convina auto dealership” story looks more like regular old vandals and not ELF. Frm Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....tion_Front
    On August 22, 2003 arsonists associated with the group attacked several car dealerships in east suburban Los Angeles, burning down a warehouse and vandalizing several cars. All told, several dozen cars were damaged or destroyed causing over a million dollars in damages, most of them SUVs or Hummers (which were probably targeted due to their lower than average fuel efficiency). [9] On September 12, 2003, Federal agents arrested Pomona, California resident Joshua Thomas Connole in their investigation of this incident. [10] Apparently, the FBI profiled Connole based on his anti-war protest activities. [11] He was soon released due to lack of evidence. [12]

    On April 19, 2005 William Jensen Cottrell, a Caltech graduate student, was convicted of firebombing Sport utility vehicles and was sentenced to more than eight years in federal prison and ordered to pay $3.5 million. It is believed his two co-conspiritors have fled the United States. Though Cottrell, Johnson, and Coe spray painted “ELF” on some of the vandalized SUV’s it is not clear if they had any connections to the organization.

  96. 117

    Annoy a liberal: Work hard and be happy spews:

    and to comment on the above report: Beating someone up for his opinion or comment is wrong (assuming it happened as stated). It is as wrong as any other form of bodily, mental or verbal violence.

  97. 118

    Heath spews:

    Dear Annoying,

    That was very thoughtfull written, but off-base.

    Yes, we are well aware that the Founding Fathers were Deists (not all of them were Christians), and in particular they were all Masons. George Washington was the Master Mason (level 33) who presided over the Masonic Court that condemned Benedict Arnold to hanging. Arnold was disappointed to be hanged as a spy under Masonic law, rather than shot as a traitor. Regardless, it is well-established that the Founding Fathers were all Masons. All Masons are Deists. Some of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but a couple of them were not. But, yes, I know our national heritage of relgious freedom was initially driven by a desire by Christians to increase the profit from ale smuggling. ;)

    As long as we are going nuts on the founding fathers, George Washington grew Marijuana to smoke, not for rope. In his journal, he kept notes on bringing in a smokable harvest, the oppposite of a fibrous harvest. So, yeah! Go, founding fathers! Let’s have weed in the schools. Ummm….

    So, you picked on my point that I said the law requires Buddhist children to attend school. You wrote that all children must attend school. That was my point. All children, including my example of Buddhist children, must attend school

    You can’t point to private school as an outlet for religious freedom and privacy, because the publich schools are paid for by all parents, not just those who ‘opt-in.’

    So now that you are forcing (by law) non-Christian children to attend a school, the public schools become a place where children are forced to go.

    And once you force anybody’s children to go some place, you can’t show them religious teaching. That includes “cultural” bullshit like a nativity scene. Is it “cultural” for there to be an Angel in the scene? If not, isn’t it sacreligious otherwise?

    You can’t have it both ways. Schools are places that must cater to all beliefs, and so that means they must emphasize none of them. You can’t emphasize Christian culture without marginalizing all the others. It may not make you uncomfortable, but it’s unfair and wrong even if it doesn’t bother you.

  98. 119

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    The government is not prevented from making displays, ‘annoy’, it is prevented from endorsing one religion over others by placing only one display.

    Noone is taking Christmas away. The entire ‘war on Christmas’ is a fabrication and a lie. The premise is that saying Happy Holidays is offensive to Christians because you arn’t saying Merry Christmas. That is all it is based on. It is crap pushed by a couple of FOX pundits who had a brainstorm to boost their ratings and get some books sold.

    This country was not founded on Christian thought unless you use a really really broad definition of ‘Christian’.

  99. 120

    prr spews:

    Deadly shoe,

    Am I correct in assuming you’ll be working through the christmas holkidays a way to show how progressive you truly are?

  100. 121

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    As for the cultural argument, realize this. That usually works when people are taking to court over, say, 10 Commandments displays at court. When it doesnt work is when the objective of the person putting up the display is clearly to broadcast a Christian endorsement rather than use as general art. Intent matters.

  101. 123

    Heath spews:

    prr —

    You don’t have to not celebrate Christmas to want it kept out of PUBLIC schools.

    There is a difference between public school and Catholic school. The public school has to include everybody in such a way that no child feels less approved of. That means no displays that approve of any one religion, at all.

    Anyway, only a moron would work on Christmas. It’s a great day for the non-Christians to enjoy, since the entire nation shuts down for it.

  102. 125

    Heath spews:

    prr –

    What’s more, I always enjoy celebrating the Yule Tide during Christmas break, since the Catholics coopted this time of year for their Mass.

  103. 126

    prr spews:

    Heath,

    It’s a religious Holiday and if you are actually putting your money where your mouth is, you would boycott the Holiday.

    So basically what you are saying is that you are a complete fraud.

  104. 127

    sven spews:

    I cannot believe reading that someone takes mcVeigh and associates him to the right wing.

    McVeigh was an anti government seperationist. I wouldnt think he should be associated with anything.

    The two guys who beat the professor, and I don’t have a problem accepting his story are called fringe idiots, and like it or not both sides have them. And in all cases its wrong.

  105. 128

    sven spews:

    I also note that just because someone beat this guy for his course, its assumed they were right wing.

    They likely were, but we dont know anything in context to them yet as they are not identified, and all we know is that they allegedly mentioned the class.

    Assumptions?

  106. 129

    Heath spews:

    prr–

    My goodness! It’s not that I hate Christians and want to boycott their holiday. The holiday is well-intentioned and has a good spirit behind it. It’s a fine time to give people gifts. All of my friends understand we aren’t celebrating anything Christian. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    Heath

  107. 130

    prr spews:

    Christmas Holiday season…..

    Let’s define it as Dec 16th thru January 3rd.

    This is when the seattle school board has identified their “Winter Holiday”

    I think it would be appropriate that all liberals have their children in school on the days.

  108. 131

    sven spews:

    Christmas has long ago become a secular holiday of giving that may have roots in religious lore, but currently has more then enough roots in secualrism and comercialism that it should not be associated with any particular religion. Specific celebrations may favor them (nativity scenes for example), but christmas, and christmas trees are as much used for no religious means as they are religious.

    How much religion does toysRus care about when selling toys? none.

    Just profit.

  109. 132

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    The religious holiday consists of going to church for 12 hours. Not celebrating, prr. Christ’s Mass. Christmas is different.

  110. 134

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Sven – If you will note, McVeigh was heavily tied into Christian Identity up until he was caught, at which time he announced he was a libertarian anarchist, or whatever. Peopl who have followed it closely and whom I trust have said that it was a ruse to attempt to deflect criticism from Christian Identity. BTW, noone here is Christian Identity, and Christian Identity != Christian. They are radical bigots.

  111. 135

    Heath spews:

    prr@130

    First, what about the vast majority of liberals, who are Christians?

    Second, what about the other liberals who celebrate other holidays around the Winter Solistice, such as the Winter Solistice?

    Finally, don’t you realize that even atheists should take holidays, and Christmas is convenient?

  112. 136

    sven spews:

    Goldy,

    To teach the controversy would have been to allow a discussion about the merits of the theory. This professor only intended to mock the theory and other beliefs. That is not teaching. That is forcing your opinion in a closed format.

    he rightly withdrew the course, even if he did so for the wrong reasons.

    And nothing about any of that warrented his beating. Period.

  113. 137

    Heath spews:

    Sven,

    What merits of Intelligent Design? It doesn’t have any; it’s just a lie some people made up. If there were something to discuss, that would be different. Intelligent Design espouses that well-known facts aren’t true. Enough with it.

  114. 138

    sven spews:

    133,

    McVeigh made his statements about being anti government. If he was a bigot, so be it. It’s moot, as his terrorism was dealt with as it should have been.

    But that should not be used to suggest via the back door that right wingers are bigots. I hope you are not going there….

  115. 140

    prr spews:

    Heath @ 134…

    As these holidays are based on Religious dates, there should be no confusion.

    There is no reaso why government workers should be given time off in honor of a religious holiday.

    let’s face it, as the argument is so well documented, we have a need for seperation of church and state, correct? Therefore, giving government employees a paid religious holiday is just wrong.

    Secondly, addressing the liberals who are christian, how can that be? Isn’t part of progressive thought always keeping an open mind? As Christians believe in one God, it would be impossible to be a liberal and also a christian.

  116. 141

    sven spews:

    ID has some merits at least in principle, and if people would leave their bigotry at home, they might see that it offers religious people a common ground with evolutionists.

    Maybe parts of it are flawed, but so are parts of evolution. I dont buy all of its conclusions, but I do appreciate that it allows an intelligent way for a person trying to resolve creationism as taught in their church and naturalism as taught in schools.

  117. 142

    Heath spews:

    prr —

    “progressive thought always keeping an open mind? As Christians believe in one God, it would be impossible to be a liberal and also a christian. ”

    There’s nothing particularly progressive about being indecisive, either. Keeping ‘an open mind’ doesn’t mean not deciding anything.

    But ‘an open mind’ would mean that a Christian with an open mind wouldn’t tell another person how or what to believe. So you do have a point that right-wingers tend to have closed minds, and like to tell people what to do and believe.

    Look at you, for example, demanding that non-Christians work on Christmas. Who do you think you are, the hall monitor?

  118. 144

    prr spews:

    I am the hall monitor,

    I have to pay taxes so why should govt employees have a paid Holiday for soomeone elses faith?

  119. 145

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    There are no merits to Intelligent Design. There is nothing that can be done to test whether it is true or false. When challenged, it always retreats to metaphysics. It is _not_ science.

    There is no reason why government workers should be given time off in honor of a religious holiday.

    Um okay. Howabout we apply that same logic elsewhere?

    There is no reason the religious should be given time off in honor of a holiday honoring veterans.

    Wait, that’s stupid. Really stupid. And so is your premise.

    Secondly, addressing the liberals who are christian, how can that be? Isn’t part of progressive thought always keeping an open mind? As Christians believe in one God, it would be impossible to be a liberal and also a christian.
    Oh for the…
    I guess only a sledgehammer will work.
    You may have heard of a person named Martin Luther King Jr….

  120. 146

    Daddy Love spews:

    Gee prr,
    I thought Christmas was one of the pagan holidays that were co-opted by the Church and miraculously transustantiated into religious holidays because people weren’t going to stop celebrating them. In particular, the Saturnalia, but also others, such as the vernal Equinox celebrations becoming the lunar holiday Easter. Do you REALLY think that Christ was resurrected according to a lunar canlendar? However, as Pope Gregory I wrote to Saint Mellitus, who was then on his way to England to conduct missionary work among the heathen Anglo-Saxons, converting heathens is easier if they are allowed to retain the outward forms of their traditional pagan practices and traditions, while recasting those traditions spiritually towards the one true God instead of to their pagan gods (whom the Pope refers to as “devils”), as he says, “to the end that, whilst some gratifications are outwardly permitted them, they may the more easily consent to the inward consolations of the grace of God”. Yeah, knda makes you say hmmmm…

  121. 147

    sven spews:

    Luther King was a liberal?

    Considering at the time of his death, the democrats were opposing civil rights, thats interesting.

    As for Intelligent Design, as I said, i think it should be used to allow the religious and secularists to find common ground.

    If you want to coninue to use it to create polarization, fine.

    Anything that encourages dialogue and understanding should be a good thing for the tolerant liberal.

    Care to look at the definition of bigot again?

  122. 148

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:


    Luther King was a liberal?

    Considering at the time of his death, the democrats were opposing civil rights, thats interesting.

    A single tear rolls down TheDeadlyShoe’s cheek.


    As for Intelligent Design, as I said, i think it should be used to allow the religious and secularists to find common ground.

    If you want to coninue to use it to create polarization, fine.

    That doesn’t make any sense. It’s not an issue of religious vs secular in the first place.

  123. 149

    Heath spews:

    Sven –

    I believe in both evolution and God, but Intelligent Design (don’t abbreviate it ID, like it’s commonplace) does not truly combine the two.

    Intelligent Design asserts that God directs molecular biology with a specific plan for the outcome. That is apparently not true, and there is not one shred of evidence for it. On the contrary, there is a vast amount of evidence that God created physics in exactly a different way: So that all the design happened in the moment of the big bang and everything after that was set in motion.

  124. 150

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Heath: Intelligent Design asserts whatever matches the credulity of the audience. ;)

  125. 151

    Heath spews:

    Daddy Love –

    You are correct about the coopted Pagan holidays, but not the Vernal Equinox; that’s Sept. 21. The Winter Solistice, or Yule Tide, is Dec. 21.

  126. 152

    windie spews:

    many many examples in this thread of the rightwing discussion tactic:”Be deliberately dense”

  127. 153

    prr spews:

    Daddy Love….

    See, this is why the professor goy his ass kicked?

    It’s christian hate talk, such as your is why you little bitches keep get beat up

  128. 154

    Libertarian spews:

    Good point, Daddy L. My theory is that the early Christians had to develop a way to “sell” Christianity to the pagan tribes of Northern and Western Europe. After all, Wicca, one of the pagan faiths, has been in eixistence for 20,000 to 25,000 years. That’s a hard one to replace with something the pagans probably viewed as an upstart religion.

    So, the Christians adapted to paganism by “converting” pagan holy days to Christian holy days. Once they had the adults roped-in to Christianity, all they had to do then was take over education of the young. (Where do you think catecism came from?) How about Halloween (Samhain, in pagan parlance) and All Saints’ Day?

    Yule became Christmas, Oestara became Easter. (Another good tie-in there, don’t you think?) Jesus and Mary replaced the God and Goddess of the old religion, and to make sure it all stick, pagans found their faith converted to devil-worship by the Christian church. Pretty funny when you realize that Satan never existed in Wicca or any of the other pagan, nature-based religions of pre-Christian Europe. The “conversion” of the pagans to Christianity was one of the best hard-sell campaigns of history.

  129. 155

    prr spews:

    Windie

    You vile cunt.

    I’ve heard the premise behind your screen name is your enormously large vagina?

  130. 156

    christmasghost spews:

    nindid@40…….”But in any case, do you really have some much pride in your heart that you believe some small sect of Christians at this particular place and time have found the ultimate Truth of Christianity and that the billions of other Christians throughout the past 2000 years are wrong if the vary in the slightest detail?”
    okay…HUH? just what are you trying to say here?
    and left turn @58…..PAYBACK for the professor??? are you serious? just because he’s a christian? not only is this against the law it’s moronic…to say the least. you just joined the ranks of the people you supposedly despise.
    and larry @84…”finding out more about the guy, seeing if there actually were any inconsistancies ”
    okay….i already know enough about the guy…through his own words…to know that he was as intolerant as the men that beat him up. my basis for assuming that he is making it up is common sense.[how many of you know any professors?…theatrical, childish and ego driven] here is a professor who is now claiming that someone beat him up for what he said [no real evidence of that] and yet his views were intolerant and childish to the extreme.
    read again what he said.
    do i think anyone should be attacked for their views? hell no. but then look at what “left turn” had to say.
    what is wrong with people anyway?
    and if all of you think that christmas isn’t under attack, that it’s a PR stunt. get real. christmas trees are now called holiday trees. so under those guidlines jews light a “candleholder” and kwanza baskets are “junk from pier one”……
    see how weird it gets if you spread it around?
    and look, all of you know that i am no fan of religious fanatics [of any religion]…..but the people that want christmas erased are fanatics themselves…can’t you see that?

  131. 157

    Daddy Love spews:

    More pagan Christmas traditions

    Evergreens are symbolic of enduring and renewed life, which is why decorate our homes with them at Christmastime. The fetching in of green branches is a magical rite to ensure the return of vegetation at winter’s end. Our modern day Christmas tree is the centerpiece of this belief.

    Although these days when we think of decking the halls only Christmas trees, holly, and mistletoe come to mind, our ancestors decorated their homes with all those, plus ivy, rosemary, bay, laurel, and anything else that still showed green. Our choices have become standardized in a way theirs didn’t because we modern types observe the ritual without understanding what underpins it whereas our distant forefathers didn’t lose sight of the concept that a plant’s greenness was what counted.

  132. 158

    Dr. E spews:

    “I’d lose very little sleep if people strated killing liberals”

    That’s fascist rhetoric.

  133. 159

    Richard Pope spews:

    If Mirecki was really beaten up, that is certainly not justifiable. I would point out that Muslim fundamentalists and leftist wackos have been guilty of far greater violence and terrorism that what Mirecki is claiming happened to him.

    All that said, this sounds a lot like the Tawana Brawley affair. Mirecki is in deep trouble with the University of Kansas for his vile and disgusting remarks, and could very well be facing discipline for violating KU rules against religious discrimination and harassment. The timing of this alleged “attack” certainly is convenient.

  134. 161

    Dr. E spews:

    “Hey windie, let’s just hope that some of those fake christians keep doing what they are doing and more liberal beatings happen”

    That’s fascist rhetoric, too.

  135. 162

    sven spews:

    Heath:

    Intelligent Design asserts that God directs molecular biology with a specific plan for the outcome.

    ok….

    That is apparently not true, and there is not one shred of evidence for it.

    Now now, you know it is impossible to truly prove a negative. There is no shred of empirical proof that live spontaneous created itself. We cannot demonstrate it, we can only demonstrate life evolving, and reproducing.

    On the contrary, there is a vast amount of evidence that God created physics in exactly a different way: So that all the design happened in the moment of the big bang and everything after that was set in motion.

    And that assumes that God did so as a whim? Or did God actually set somethign in motion as part of a grand design. Are you suggesting that your God was smart and powerful enough to design a big bang to jumpstart life (sounds slightly like creationism to me) but not smart enough to either direct its course from there, or to have some knowledge of where it might go from there?

    That’s an interesting box to put God into.

  136. 163

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Liberals must arm! These C-Taliban wouldn’t have fucked with Professor Mirecki if they knew he was packing.

  137. 164

    sven spews:

    shoe,

    I dont get the tear part but ok.

    As for the relgious issue, it is completely about religion. When scientists use evolution to deny the existence of God, and that teaching is forced upon religious students, isn’t that rather intolerant?

  138. 165

    sven spews:

    Roger,

    Right on. I plan to get a concealed weapons permit so I can go to the mall safely…

    :)

  139. 166

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:


    I would point out that Muslim fundamentalists and leftist wackos have been guilty of far greater violence and terrorism that what Mirecki is claiming happened to him.

    .. How do you think he got the bruises and such, then? Magic?

    As for saying muslim fundamentalists and leftist wackos in the same sentence, that’s a laugh. The left is intrinsically opposed to theocrats of all kinds. And as I stated before, if you want to go down the road of ‘whose extremists are worse’, the Right will lose every time. We don’t need to go down that road, since none of us are extremists.

  140. 167

    christmasghost spews:

    Libertarian@154..you are absolutely right. in wales it still hasn’t “sold” very well in alot of regions.
    and so many of our modern day ‘quirks’ that we have are based on pagan religions. “knock on wood” was used by pagans to wake up the tree spirit. recently a good friend of mine told me it was because of the wooden cross christ was on and i nearly fell out of my chair. i pointed out the info to her and she was really surprised.
    the “hard sell” continues to this day.[ i think it’s called bullshit and more bullshit..]
    if modern day “progressives” were at all smart they would take a cue from the catholics of so long ago and stop trying to remove christmas trees and christmas in general. because here’s a little secret for all of you ‘progressives’ out there [pun intended]….the really nutty ‘christian’ fanatics are on the same page you are.
    you want to really annoy a fundy? embrace christmas trees and all the trimmings….it drives them nuts. and that’s just where all fanatics belong………

  141. 168

    jesus spews:

    Fuck Jesus Christ. Really. Look what He does to His “followers,” like Puddyshit and prr. Just look at them–small little “men,” cowering in basements, talking “tough,” typical little shitty chickenhawks. Lord Spatula all over again. Beating off to their vitriol on bulletin boards, cowering when their mom shouts down the stairs.

    If that’s the kind of person welcomed to the arms of that god, fuck ‘em and fuck that god.

    Talk about Jesus Fucking Wept.

  142. 169

    Dr. E spews:

    Hey prr, are you a fascist?

    “Let us have a dagger between our teeth, a bomb in our hands, and an infinite scorn in our hearts”– Mussolini

  143. 170

    Puddybud spews:

    Heath, go back and reread the post! The Kent school district did NOT allow the students to say prayers at their desk. Did you selectively miss this opening sentence part “Students would be permitted to say nondisruptive prayers in the classroom” If they would be permitted, doesn’t that PROVE that at one time the Kent School District didn’t allow it? Why state something already allowed? What part of English did you fail again?

  144. 171

    proud leftist spews:

    Is there no responsible conservative reading today’s postings who is willing to condemn the vile rantings of prr? I would think a number of you would find his idiocy completely offensive.

  145. 172

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:


    I dont get the tear part but ok.

    As for the relgious issue, it is completely about religion. When scientists use evolution to deny the existence of God, and that teaching is forced upon religious students, isn’t that rather intolerant?

    Evolution doesn’t deny God, it simply provides no evidence of God. There’s an obvious difference. If to validate his or her faith someone must see God everywhere they turn, then they will be disappointed. Professors are under no obligation to lie about biology to assuage insecurities.

    MLK Jr. was the most obvious example of religious liberalism.

    There was a wing of the Democratic Party which was composed of southern bigots. But most Democrats and many Republicans elected to support civil rights. This alienated the Bigots from both parties. Some years later, the Republican leadership made a conscious choice (the infamous Southern Strategy) to attract the bigots to their party, and this is the way it has been since; a Republican party and conservative movement that has sacrificed most all principles they might have had. They have degraded themselves to the lowest common denominator around – gaining and holding power. Everything else is negotiable. After all, if you don’t have power you can’t get anything done, and the Democrats/liberals are intrinsically evil, so anything done to best them is instrinsically moral.

  146. 173

    christmasghost spews:

    dr. e…why attach such a big word to something it doesn’t fit?
    “I’d lose very little sleep if people strated killing liberals”
    that’s not fascist-speak…that’s just moronic.
    but then did you notice that roger is on the same page? he’s always calling for people in “your tribe” to arm and fight. stupidity abounds…………
    maybe the adults on here should just ignore the people that call for violence and taking away other people’s rights, what do you think?
    and “the deadly shoe” though i love the name you chose [it’s a classic] for you to be contantly suggesting that people be banned for expressing their point of view is telling to say the least.
    after you’ve been here for more than five minutes [in the big scheme of things] you will realize that goldy relies on us [as does any blogger] to hold the opposing view. other wise it’s just called an echo chamber sweetie.
    get it?

  147. 174

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Professor Mirecki’s e-mail

    Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005
    Subject: I.D. & Creationism class to be taught at KU this spring!

    To my fellow damned,

    Its true, the fundies have been wanting to get I.D. and creationism into the Kansas public schools, so I thought “why don’t I do it?”

    I will teach the class, with several other lefty KU professors in the sciences and humanities. Class is:

    REL 602 Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationisms and other Religious Mythologies.

    Tuesdays 7:00-9:30pm. Smith Hall room 100. Open to undergrads and grads.

    Enrollment limited to about 120. 3 credit hours.

    The fundies want it all taught in a science class, but this will be a nice slap in their big fat face by teaching it as a religious studies class under the category “mythology”. I expect it will draw much media attention. The university public relations office will have a press release on it in a few weeks, I also have contacts at several regional newspapers.

    Of course, I won’t actually be teaching I.D. and creationisms, but rather I’ll be teaching ABOUT I.D. and creationisms as modern mythologies, indicating that these ideas have no place in a public school science class, but can certainly be analyzed in humanities classes for their function in society. Basic approach is my usual: anthropology with a focus on religious thought and behavior.

    Any ideas for textbooks, guest lecturers and panels would be appreciated.

    So far, six faculty have eagerly signed up to lecture. I can probably pull Chancellor Hemenway into this also, especially in the light of his public comments supporting evolution.

    Doing my part to p*ss of the religious right,

    Evil Dr. P.

    It sounds to me like Mirecki is certainly guilty of intentionally misrepresenting or not clearly representing his “class” to students who big huge tuitions so this Harvard “Flake” can get his jollies!!!

  148. 175

    sven spews:

    Some, I wont say all, but some evolutionists have directly stated it is proof there is no God. Like it or not, it happens.

    I think you cannot attribute a lust of power to one party without showing the other party is equally as lusful, not just in practice but in reality.

    All the republicrats care about is election and winning. the democrats will sacrifice anyone or anything as easily as the republicans.

    Partisan politics in this country will destroy us if someone does not come forward and try to build unity.

    And I dont see anyone capable in our lifetimes because they all toe their party lines.

    As for the history of the parties, the facts you showed above prove that the parties (both) will mutate and gerrymander as needed for their own strategies to victory.

    Its politics. Its not idealism any more.

  149. 176

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Goldy===
    Kind of strange your filter won’t let me post Mirecki’s full e-mail that caused the uproar.
    Why don’t you post the full e-mail in your text Goldy???

  150. 177

    bill spews:

    AKKKK Libertarian, thanks but I gotta set the record straight.

    After all, Wicca, one of the pagan faiths, has been in eixistence for 20,000 to 25,000 years.

    Only newbies and the fluffy bunny types still think that. Wicca is a resurection of a religion that is 20-25k years old, but Wicca itself is about 80 years old. (hence the neo part of neo-pagan)

    Oestara became Easter.

    Not exactly, Beltane became Easter, Oestara doesn’t really have much precident, and seems to have been created by a couple of monks in the 15th century. The seemed to feel that if they couldnt find a source its best to make one up.

    and Daddy Love,

    holly, and mistletoe come to mind, our ancestors decorated their homes with all those, plus ivy, rosemary, bay, laurel

    The evergreen is definitely about rebirth of the sun as is the holly, the rest have more to do with magical properties of those plants.

    FWIW, in my opinion, Professor Mirecki’s remarks were obnoxious and he deserved to be fired for making them. He clearly had no intention of teaching a class, he was trying to indoctrinate people. He did not deserve to be beaten for them.

  151. 178

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Christmasghost: Yes, but there are lines that can be crossed even in the ‘free-est’ of forums, and IMO Prr has crossed them.

    Oh and thanks *g*

  152. 179

    christmasghost spews:

    “I think maybe we should get prr banned

    Comment by TheDeadlyShoe……..”

    now that’s fascist rhetoric………

    ****** and “proud leftist” i condemn absolutely what prr said. it’s appalling and i don’t care what his other views are…once he said that he became just another idiot.
    your turn………take roger to task………

  153. 180

    sven spews:

    yea, like it or not, PRR acts as a lovely pole for the arguments and oppositions.

    I like taking a more moderate stance and irritating everyone just a bit.

    :)

  154. 181

    windie spews:

    I don’t think prr likes me oO

    Anyways, just because “Playing Dumb” (if its playing, sometimes its hard to tell) works on Republican voters doesn’t mean it’ll work here.

    The only argument you bastards have is continually, intentionally misinterpreting things

    Thats it. And thats why its so damn frustrating discussing things with you. You simply don’t wanna know. If we present a fact, you either ignore it, or twist it so hard it can look up its own ass.

    Special to prr: thank you for showing so clearly what kind of a person you are throughout this thread. I can see the billboards now:

    “‘Prr’ votes republican.

    ‘Prr’ says:

    [insert random prr hate-screed]

    Don’t be like ‘prr'; vote left in 2008″

    now that would be a nightmare for the republican party!

  155. 182

    prr spews:

    Windie…

    I’m curious, was the death and destruction in New Orleans caused by breaking levies or just a discharge from your enormous vagina after fleet week?

  156. 183

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    I think you cannot attribute a lust of power to one party without showing the other party is equally as lusful, not just in practice but in reality.
    One party regularly commits actions that violate election laws, and is under a standing court order as a result. It’s not the Democratic party. If the Democrats gerrymandered as much as the Republicans, the Democrats would be much better off. This can be seen in that Democrat representatives each represent more people than do Republican representatives. The Republicans have gone so far as to conduct gerrymandering that violates the Voting Rights Act, but because they control the executive, they have gotton off scot free. Republicans also regularly attempt to disenfranchise voter groups that they think will not vote their way, examples of which have been exaustively covered on this blog.

    The Conservative movement has over recent years run partisan campaigns in order to influence supposedly none partisan posts, such as judgeships and school boards. The results can and have been seen recently.

    The Republican Party also has conducted an effort to insure that every lobbyist in Washington is a Republican. This is contrary to the previous practice of splitting 50/50. This is the infamous K Street Project. Ironically, this may backfire, as Democrats now don’t owe very much to the all-pervasive lobbyists.

    There are no Democratic equivalents for any of the above.

    Saying that ‘everyone does it’ is a blatantly false excuse pushed by national republicans in order to justify their own corruption.

  157. 184

    Nindid spews:

    Sven @179 – I don’t think calling for murder is really a thing that counts as a ‘lovely pole’… but maybe it is more acceptable in other company.

  158. 185

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Christmasghost. Getting somene banned from an internet forum is not fascist rhetoric. :p

  159. 187

    Puddybud spews:

    TheDeadlyShoe: MLK Jr? Apparently you have no idea what he meant or stood for. He was worried about the liberal progressive. Isn’t that you TheDeadlyShoe?

  160. 188

    Nindid spews:

    Shoe @184 – But Shoe you don’t get it!

    Prr calls for Murder = You saying he should be banned for it

    It is all the same!

  161. 189

    windie spews:

    that the best you can do?

    All the insults you can put out in the world, prr, can’t change the fact that you’re a dark spot of shame on not only the Republican party, but on America.

    Every stupid crudity, every insult, is just hammering the point home. So keep going, please! Each and every letter you type further proves my point, and further shows what the once-great GOP has become.

    (Seriously, third-rate trolls like you are old-hat. Go take lessons or something.)

  162. 191

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Nindid – *grin*

    Puddybud – I consider MLK a liberal because he espoused liberal principles of the highest order. YMMV – I don’t want to start a war over who gets to ‘claim’ MLK.

  163. 192

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    “”Some Christians seem to me inclined to lose track of love, compassion and mercy. I don’t think I have any special brief to go around judging them, but when the stink of hypocrisy becomes so foul in the nostrils it makes you start to puke it becomes necessary to point out there is one more good reason to observe the separation of church and state: If God keeps hanging out with politicians, it’s gonna hurt his reputation.”
    —Molly Ivins”

    If anything, I am pretty sure liberals and democrats are underestimating the danger of the Dominionist movement towards theocracy. The mainstream Christians are as well. A theocracy proclaimed by the Pat Robertsons, Ralph Reed and Tom Delay will be stringing up Baptist and Methodist as soon as they are finished with the Liberals and Unitarians.

  164. 193

    sven spews:

    Oh please, I can site example for example of dirty politics in any county state or city from both parties. A democrat in a small town in West Virginia just got busted for seliing votes.

    http://www.indiadaily.com/breaking_news/52715.asp

    Politics means winning. Both sides want to.

    whether you like it or not, both parties care more for winning then anything else.

    At least I can stand and look objectively at the corruption everywhere.

    Goldy focuses on the conservatives. Shark on the liberals.

    Why dont we knock the blinders off and see how the partisan wrangling is killing the country.

  165. 194

    Puddybud spews:

    The person whom calls him self the son of God@168: WTF are you talking about? Blah, blah, blah.

    You have no clue of the Bible and your post proves it. John 11:35 Jesus wept for two reasons:

    1.) He was close to Mary Martha and Lazarus. Read the Gospels man! When in Bethany, he would get refreshed at their house. Mary was Mary Magdalene, the one accused of adultery and Jesus asked where are your accusers. She also washed Jesus’ feet with the spices and her tears at Simon’s house. He wept as He felt Mary and Martha’s pain of their brother’s death.

    2.) The people didn’t accept Him as the Son of God. Even wehn Jesus told them to roll away the stone Mary said “He’s been dead four days”. He wept over them and their unbelief. Read the verses above the 11:35.

    But then you selectively YANK Bible verses to proof-text a silly argument. Why else do you call yourself Jesus? Playing Anti-christ again?

  166. 195

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.
    — Barry Goldwater

  167. 196

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees,” Scanlon wrote in the memo, which was read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. “Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them.” The brilliance of this strategy was twofold: Not only would most voters not know about an initiative to protect Coushatta gambling revenues, but religious “wackos” could be tricked into supporting gambling at the Coushatta casino even as they thought they were opposing it.
    — Mi Jack Abramoff

  168. 197

    Daddy Love spews:

    Oh, sven @ 162

    There is no shred of empirical proof that live spontaneous created itself. We cannot demonstrate it, we can only demonstrate life evolving, and reproducing.
    What there is, is a vast amount of emprical evidence that the theory that encompasses the event (or process) you mention is sound and predictive. Beats the hell of of ID in that way.

    there is a vast amount of evidence that God created physics
    Here’s where you just ran out of evidence.

    all the design happened in the moment of the big bang and everything after that was set in motion.
    Yes, it’s the Divine Clockmaker again. The problem is, of course, that you have no “emprical” evidence that anyone “injected” design into the Big Bang and no theory arising out of that assumption that has made a testable prediction, while the scientists who look at that event as having natually-occurring quantum fluctuations that set our unoverse’s properties have a large set of corroborating observations, verified prdictions, and consistent (though necessarily unfinished) theoretical models.

    that assumes that God did so as a whim? Or did God actually st somethign in motion as part of a grand design?
    The problem is assuming God. Try to establish a sound emprical case for God.

    Are you suggesting that your God was smart and powerful enough to design a big bang to jumpstart life (sounds slightly like creationism to me) but not smart enough to either direct its course from there, or to have some knowledge of where it might go from there?
    Is God able to create a Universe so complicated that He cannot direct it? To answer Yes restricts the omnipotence of God. To answer No restricts the omnipotence of God. Discuss.

  169. 199

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees,” Scanlon wrote in the memo, which was read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. “Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them.” The brilliance of this strategy was twofold: Not only would most voters not know about an initiative to protect Coushatta gambling revenues, but religious “wackos” could be tricked into supporting gambling at the Coushatta casino even as they thought they were opposing it.
    — Jack Abramoff

  170. 201

    Puddybud spews:

    Daddy Love: Can you creat Gold out of dirt? Can you create life through spontaneous generation. As the state in the Xerox commercial, “You could be worth millions”.

  171. 202

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    Ya know that’s odd. Every other repub in the state of WA pretends not to even recognize the names. hmmm. Maybe there is hope for you yet.

  172. 203

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Sven… seriously. There are obviously going to be corrupt Democrats. Most Republicans are honest. But the Republican party is corrupt nearly across the board at the leadership level. The College Republicans are beyond belief and they are the training ground for the national party. A mayor and a sheriff in godknowswhere are not nearly the same.

    Grover Norquist even said that he wants to export partisanship and bitterness from Washington to around the nation.

    It is simply not true that the Democrats do everything that the Republicans do.

  173. 204

    sven spews:

    um, daddy?

    some of the quotes were not said by me.

    What there is, is a vast amount of emprical evidence that the theory that encompasses the event (or process) you mention is sound and predictive. Beats the hell of of ID in that way.

    I said the theory of evolution is sound. My comment is that there is no proof of the exact origins of life, just accepted theories.

    “there is a vast amount of evidence that God created physics”

    Here’s where you just ran out of evidence.

    Pity I didnt’ say it, and you also failed to keep it in context.

    “all the design happened in the moment of the big bang and everything after that was set in motion.”

    Yes, it’s the Divine Clockmaker again. The problem is, of course, that you have no “emprical” evidence that anyone “injected” design into the Big Bang and no theory arising out of that assumption that has made a testable prediction, while the scientists who look at that event as having natually-occurring quantum fluctuations that set our unoverse’s properties have a large set of corroborating observations, verified prdictions, and consistent (though necessarily unfinished) theoretical models.

    Again, address that to Heath

    “that assumes that God did so as a whim? Or did God actually st somethign in motion as part of a grand design?”

    The problem is assuming God. Try to establish a sound emprical case for God.

    People do all the time, but their evidence in visions or miracles is dismissed. And Heath actually made the assertion here not me.

    I said that ID allows common ground between the two camps, nothing more.

    “Are you suggesting that your God was smart and powerful enough to design a big bang to jumpstart life (sounds slightly like creationism to me) but not smart enough to either direct its course from there, or to have some knowledge of where it might go from there?”

    Is God able to create a Universe so complicated that He cannot direct it? To answer Yes restricts the omnipotence of God. To answer No restricts the omnipotence of God. Discuss.

    I already did when i noted that Heathhad put God in a box.

    Address your post to the proper person.

  174. 206

    Daddy Love spews:

    Pud
    Can you creat Gold out of dirt?
    Nope.

    Can you create life through spontaneous generation?
    Likewise.

    As the state in the Xerox commercial, “You could be worth millions”.

    Perhaps if you had a point, that would be worth millions.

  175. 208

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    “The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees,” “Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them.”
    — Michael Scanlon ,memo, read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee.

  176. 209

    sven spews:

    Shoe,

    I dont buy, it so we can agree to disagree. Too much of the rhetoric spewing form the democrats is simply anti republican. take this quote by Sen Barrick Obama:

    “It is arguable that the best politics going into ’06 would be a clear succinct message: ‘Let’s bring our troops home,’ ” Obama said. “It’s certainly easier to communicate and I think would probably have some pretty strong resonance with the American people right now, but whether that’s the best policy right now, I don’t feel comfortable saying it is.”

    There is a case in point of the duplicity the democratic leadership practices (win despite the consequences), even as it shows there is at least one honest democrat, Obama, who isnt afraid to admit the truth.

  177. 211

    Libertarian spews:

    I’m afraid I have to disagree with you, Bill. The books I’ve read on the subject state that Wicca is very old. Unfortuntely, the Christian attacks on this pagan faith almost oblitherated it. I suppose you can say that today’s Wicca is not EXACTLY the same as the old nature-based religions of pre-Christian Europe, but the it is as close as we can come. There are several paths to follow for those inclined to adopt the old religion. The Gardnerian Tradition comes to mind, which is essentially a best-guess at what the old religion truly was. A Google search would bring up other paths of Wicca. None can accurately re-create the ancient religion.

    Easter comes nearer to the Vernal Equinox, most of the time, than it does May 1st, which is another pagan holy day called Beltane. (In the Celtic tradition, Beltane actually began on the evening of April 30th, since the Celts measured days from sundown to sundown.) Ostara is the Vernal Equinox and where the word “Easter” originated. Beltane seems to be more related to the May Day celebation than anything else. I don’t know if there’s a Crusitian tie-in to Beltane or not.

    In any event, I think that we can agree that many of the Christian holy days appear to be awful close to the old pagan holy days, and, is some cases, overlap. I stand by my theory that Christianity adpated the pagan holy days to its purpose in order to help convert the pagans. After all, do we really know for sure that Jesus was born on December 25th? But Yule is curiously close by on December 21st.

  178. 212

    sven spews:

    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule – and both commonly succeed, and are right.

    ~H.L. Mencken, 1956

  179. 213

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    But that’s not comparable. There is a serious case to be made that bringing the troops home would also be the best policy, which is my and many others position. The Democratic party has no firm stance on this issue, as is demonstrated by the positions taken by Clark, Obama, and both Clintons, as well as many others. And, in fact, most Democrats agree that the near unanimous Democratic support for the war at its outset was caused by fear of being marginalized as they were after the first Gulf War. The fear of being labeled Weak on Crime or its close cousin Weak on Foreign Enemy has driven many Democrats to do some pretty stupid things.

  180. 214

    Daddy Love spews:

    Sven
    My comment is that there is no proof of the exact origins of life, just accepted theories.
    The theories were not accepted by chance or whim. While it’s also difficult to dis-“prove” the soplipsist argument (the epistemological belief that one’s self is the only thing that can be known with certainty and verified), it seems worthwhile to work as though the opposite were true because such a wealth of coherent and cross-supporting data is on that other side. Same with scientific ideas about life’s origin.

    This reference to “accepted theories” understates the role of evolution by natrual selection regarding its fundamental importance and centrality in the life sciences, as well as the cooroboratign evidence from other disciplines, from geology to quantum physics.

  181. 215

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    But just to emphasize my point, that is not nearly the same thing as voter intimidtion, rampant Wedge Politics, the K Street Project, or numerous other examples of RNC perfidy.

  182. 217

    Daddy Love spews:

    Libertarian
    In one of my earlier links, there is a discussion of the date of Jesus’ birth.

    The Bible doesn’t explicitly state the date of Jesus’ birth, but it does give clues. Luke 2:8-14 speaks of shepherds living outdoor and tending to a flock of sheep. The text reads, “And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.” Scholars of the Bible have concluded that this would be an unlikely practice in the month of December, for the weather conditions would be too cold to live outside or tend to a flock of sheep, but a likely practice in the spring lambing season.

    In terms of historical information, we know that the census was always conducted in the springtime. Roman records of the historical figure of Jesus point to a birthdate most likely in March.

    Retrieved from “http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Pagan_Beliefs_Surrounding_Christmas:_The_Date_Jesus_was_Born”

  183. 218

    christmasghost spews:

    nindid and ‘shoe’…….if you don’t think it’s fascist to want someone banned from speaking their opinion then you two are both too far gone to help………..

  184. 219

    sven spews:

    Which proves my point.

    If their support for the war, despite the fact they publically cited evidence for that support, if it was only for expediency, then that proves my contention that appearence is more important than principle, and winning more then truth.

  185. 220

    proud leftist spews:

    Christmasghost @ 178
    I admire your willingness to condemn what clearly merits condemning. I can’t take you up on your invitation, however. Roger Rabbit’s satire is a bird of an entirely different feather than prr’s bile.

  186. 221

    sven spews:

    214,

    I dont argue any importance of natural selection, nor do I state any case against it.

    Neither does Intelligent design, for what its worth.

    ID just say that God designed life to evolve.

  187. 222

    sven spews:

    215

    Voter intimidatoin is commonly accused, and rarely proven. But shold we really turn this into an argument to prove which side is nasiter?

    Isnt it enough to say both sides are nasty?

    If you want I can compile a reference of democratis voter fraud (without going to soundpolitics) and show you that both sides are veterans at dirty tricks.

  188. 223

    Puddybud spews:

    Then DaddyLove@203 you proved my point. If there was no Intelligent Design, anyone could create anything they wanted. I think I want a Bentley Continental Flying Spur! I would get a whole bunch of dirt together, wave my magic want and presto, I have my Spur. You can’t do any of that DaddyLove!

    God is in control and His Intelligent Design is what we live under. And the crap that the World is 20,000 years old is crap. I am so surprised the good David has not refuted this lie. David, how can you allow the lie of >20000 years live here? Is this selective lie passing David? Hmmm…? Never correct a lefty no matter if the lie is a biggy?

  189. 224

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    165

    “Liberals must arm! These C-Taliban wouldn’t have fucked with Professor Mirecki if they knew he was packing. Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/6/05 @ 1:39 pm”

    “Roger, Right on. I plan to get a concealed weapons permit so I can go to the mall safely… :) Comment by sven— 12/6/05 @ 1:43 pm”

    Well okay, I see your point, Sven: Some of ‘em will fuck with you even if you pull a gun on them. So, to cover that situation, add to the above:

    “Liberals must arm! These C-Taliban thugs wouldn’t have fucked with Professor Mirecki if he had double tapped them in mid-torso.”

    (For those of you unfamiliar with handgun tactics, “double tap” describes the self-defense technique of firing two shots 2 seconds apart. The objective is to cause the assailant to immediately stop the threatening behavior, for example, getting him to drop a pistol before he can pull the trigger. The stopping power of two bullets in the chest 2 seconds apart is exponentially greater, not twice as great, as 1 bullet and raises the odds of a successful stop from 50% to nearly 100%. The fact this is likely to have lethal consequences for the assailant is not material and should not be in your mind at the moment of necessity. You’ll have plenty of time to sort that out later, whereas if you don’t survive, you won’t be able to sort it out at all.)

  190. 225

    just another bob spews:

    If there was no Intelligent Design, anyone could create anything they wanted.

    There is a probability this could happen, and it may be possible to calculate it. See “quantum mechanics, theory of” for details.

    On the other hand, you probably can’t be bothered, pudster.

    So, is God “just a theory”, too?

  191. 226

    sven spews:

    Roger.

    Nice commentary.

    I actually own no guns, but I was serious about the gun permit.

    I have my eye on a small sp101 that I can carry.

    S

  192. 227

    Puddybud spews:

    Another Bob@225: I was a physics TA in college dude. I know all about Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg, etc.. In college we called Erwin Schroedinger, Erwin Scrotumger! I say again, where you can try and calculate anything. Creating something from Nothing or performing full matter modification is conjecture. Many movies have been made simulating this but NOTHING has been done!

  193. 228

    windie spews:

    @227

    they don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

    The whole problem with int. design really is its a trojan horse to get creationism into school and to try to hurt the theory of evolution. It is the claim of the int. design proponents that evolution and God are mutually exclusive… And they makethe claim because they have another agenda.

  194. 229

    bill spews:

    Libertarian, I wasn’t disputing your theory, in fact there are letters from one of the popes (Gregory 1) that suggests doing that very thing. From this article, (sorry to be reusing here, but it is soo appropriate.)

    The Pope suggests that converting heathens is easier if they are allowed to retain the outward forms of their traditional pagan practices and traditions, while recasting those traditions spiritually towards the one true God instead of to their pagan gods (whom the Pope refers to as “devils”), “to the end that, whilst some gratifications are outwardly permitted them, they may the more easily consent to the inward consolations of the grace of God”

    I was disagreeing with the specifics. Beltane is a much more important holiday.

    I would recommend checking the publisher of the source material you are reading and avoid Llewellyn press. Some of the earlier writers did seem to accept Gardners claims at face value, but there are few wiccans who still accept that he was working with a parent to child direct line to a pre christian religion.

  195. 230

    Annoy a liberal: Work hard and be happy spews:

    This actually was one of the most refreshing and interesting discussion posts in a long time. Both sides put their issues up and discussed them in a almost polite and reasonable manner.
    Unfortunately a few idiots still exist on both sides) and yes, Proud Leftist, I agree with you that PRR is way of his rocker and his language and posts are uncalled for. So are a few others like Donna, Rujax and the “satirical (NOT) RR” at many instances. (Hey, maybe PRR and RR are the one and same and the person is trying to stir the pot from either side :-) ).

    If all discussions would be list this (aside from the few wackos..I think HA might have a future :-) )

  196. 231

    Puddybud spews:

    Windie, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that eveolution is real? Why does your side throw a conniption every time people want to introduce an alternative theory to the students? Why does evolution have to be the ONLY theory introduced to students?

  197. 232

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Goldy @ 216 sez:
    “And your point is… that Professor Mirecki deserved to be beaten for this?”
    No Goldy….my point is this CLOWN Mirecki should be fired for intentionally deceiving students about the content of his class.
    Don’t you believe PUBLIC SERVANT College Professors taking PUBLIC MONEY ought to at least be upfront and honest about the content of their courses??? This CLOWN clearly was going to intentionally misrepresent to be able to make his own political point. That ain’t good, is it???
    As far as the alleged beating is concerned….this CLOWN was under tremendous public pressure for his outrageous e-mail. What better way to deflect attention from HIS actions than to create a diversion!!!
    This CLOWN should have been FIRED!

  198. 233

    Puddybud spews:

    Cynical, KU will follow the same strategem as CU with Ward Churchill. It will be called academic freedom. I had this conversation with a student over his brewski my soda after class. He adamantly claimed Ward Churchill had academic freedom because he too was an assistant professor. That’s the state of liberal college education now a days. James “Frag Your Officer” Daly just went a little too far.

  199. 234

    Nindid spews:

    Puddy @231 – Do you understand that ID is NOT science? It neither meets the basic definition of science nor does it attempt to in anything but press releases.

    Are you seriously suggesting that we start teaching science according to whatever theories may be popular with certain religous sects?

    Look, I believe that God created the universe. I don’t know the details and neither does anyone else.

    But the point is that I arrive at that conclusion as a religous belief, not from any scientific process. If anyone can come up with an experiment to prove or disprove God, then maybe we can start talking about putting it into science class. Until then, I have no right to impose my religous metaphysical beliefs upon anyone else.

    Science class should be about science. That is the problem.

  200. 236

    Nindid spews:

    Puddy @233 What was it about what Ward Churchill said that you feel necessitates silencing his voice in academic debate?

  201. 238

    Nindid spews:

    Xmas @218 – Are you really saying that calling for murder is just an opinion?

    I am perfectly happy to say that there is no place in public discourse for saying those who disagree with me should be maimed or killed? Where is your conscience?

  202. 239

    Nindid spews:

    Sven @237 – I am actually serious… I think I understand the basics of his argument that he was to present in New Hampshire, but if you guys know more I would love to hear it.

  203. 240

    sven spews:

    Ward Churchill stands accused of Acedemic and rearch fraud, Fraudulantly representing himself as an antive american, plagiarism and most recently of suggesting soldiers frag their officers in Iraq and other outrageous claims.

    His comments about 911 were tasteless as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill

    The guy frankly has no standing as an educator. he is an activist masking as one.

    Education should be free of that kind of tripe.

  204. 242

    windie spews:

    puddy@231

    at least evolution is an actual theory (not something you can say about Intel. Design), and if you actually think about it, it makes a lot of sense.

    I’m a proponent of publishing all real theories. Intel’ design isn’t one, but instead is a trick. Therefore, it shouldn’t be taught.

  205. 243

    Puddybud spews:

    Nindid: First is he really academically debating anything when he called innocent people Little Eichmanns who died on 9-11? He then had to clean up his spew. Where does he spew this garbage? Ward Churchill speaking at the Anarchist (progressive) Bookfair in San Francisco (Freakazoidville, aka Nutburger Heaven) on March 26, 2005

    Sven said the rest succinctly in post #240!

  206. 244

    Nindid spews:

    Sven @240 – I can’t speak to all of the various allegations raised there, but is it fair to say that the real problem folks had with him was contained in this portion of the article?

    Churchill wrote an essay called “Some People Push Back: On the Justice of Roosting Chickens” about the September 11, 2001 attacks, in which he argued that American foreign policies provoked the attacks, describing the “technocratic corps at the very heart of America’s global financial empire” working in the World Trade Center as “little Eichmanns.” [3] [4]

    Churchill argued that the impact on the population of Iraq of decade-long economic sanctions, together with the Middle East policies of President Lyndon Johnson, and the history of Crusades against the Islamic world, had contributed to a climate in which 9/11 was what he called a “natural and inevitable response.”

  207. 245

    Puddybud spews:

    Nindid: Why not start here: http://www.creationsafaris.com/wgcs_toc.htm

    Also may I suggest: http://www.christiananswers.ne.....tists.html

    “An important factor in bringing about the universal dominance and acceptance of Darwinian evolution has been that virtually every eminent professional scientist appointed to posts in the life sciences in the last 40 or 50 years, in the English-speaking world, has been a convinced Darwinist. …These men, as well as occupying powerful and important academic teaching positions, were also prolific and important writers whose influence has been widespread in forming the consensus.” – Is this called stacking the deck?

    “…A tidal wave of new books… threaten to shatter that confidence – titles like Darwin Retried (1971), Macbeth; The Neck of the Giraffe: Where Darwin Went Wrong (1982), Hitching; The Great Evolution Mystery (1983), Taylor; The Bone Peddlers: Selling Evolution (1984), Fix; Darwin Was Wrong – A Study in Probabilities (1984), Cohen; Darwinism: The Refutation of a Myth (1987), Lovtrup; and Adam and Evolution (1984), Pitman. Not one of these books was written from a Christian-apologetic point of view: they are concerned only with scientific truth – as was Sir Ernst Chain when he called evolution ‘a fairy tale’.” – Interesting

    As Science Digest reported:

    “Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest-growing controversial minorities… Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science.”

    One example is the late Dr. Arthur E. Wilder-Smith, an honored scientist with an amazing three earned doctorates. He held many distinguished positions. A former Evolutionist, Dr. Wilder-Smith debated various leading scientists on the subject throughout the world. In his opinion, the Evolution model did not fit as well with the established facts of science as did the Creation model of intelligent design.

    “The Evolutionary model says that it is not necessary to assume the existence of anything, besides matter and energy, to produce life. That proposition is unscientific. We know perfectly well that if you leave matter to itself, it does not organize itself – in spite of all the efforts in recent years to prove that it does.”

    Secular researcher Richard Milton summarized the current world situation: “Darwinism has never had much appeal for science outside of the English-speaking world, and has never appealed much to the American public (although popular with the U.S. scientific establishment in the past). However, its ascendancy in science, in both Britain and America, has been waning for several decades as its grip has weakened in successive areas: geology; paleontology; embryology; comparative anatomy. Now even geneticists are beginning to have doubts. It is only in mainstream molecular biology and zoology that Darwinism retains serious enthusiastic supporters. As growing numbers of scientists begin to drift away from neo-Darwinist ideas, the revision of Darwinism at the public level is long overdue, and is a process that I believe has already started.” _ So why is this such a topic for your side to have a cow over?

  208. 247

    Puddybud spews:

    Erratum: Post #245 should have been targeted to windie. My bad!

    Nindid, we all know that Saddam was using his “Oil-for-Food” money as bribes to get his way on the Security Council through France, Russia, and Germany. If Saddam used his money to buy the medicine and food for his people, none of what has happened today would have any bearing. The guy was a supreme ass. But Ward Churchill had an agenda and the real issues be damned. The problems with academics are when proven wrong, do they publicly recant? Hell no. Just like a whole bunch of ASSes here, and you know who you are!

    Regarding the Crusades, etc. Churchill should pin that on the Catholic Church. Many kings and princes received their power and riches from the Popes by leading their duped population into the crusade mentality. All that death for a city. Kind of like the ASSes side of many arguments.

    So are you excusing the death of ~3000 innocent people by agreeing with Ward Churchill. Please tell me!

  209. 249

    Nindid spews:

    Sven, et al.

    I am going to have to sign off here soon, so let me just say this before I go.

    I believe very strongly in the marketplace of ideas. Professors at research institutions have a special role in Western society where they spend their lives attempting to advance knowledge in one area or another through their own research and by debating with the larger academic community.

    Their debates can and should push the boundaries of what is acceptable in the general public. Churchill’s argument seems to be that our current economic and political posture in the world amounts to the exploitation and extermination of less powerful third world countries and we should expect resistance to these policies. In his view, those that support such a system are just as guilty as the people on the front lines of colonialism, exploitation, etc. and are justifiable targets in war.

    I disagree with him and his rhetoric seems to be unnecessarily inflammatory, but it does not rise to the point that we need to ban his voice from the debate. If his research is flawed – and I believe it is – then he will suffer defeat in the academic environment and we will move on. By trying to ban him, conservatives have done nothing but raise his profile. Are we really so weak as a society that we can not stand some minor professor in Colorado to question our beliefs?

    Since their founding 800 years ago, semi-autonomous research universities have been one of the driving forces in advancing Western technology, culture and society. Their research often arouses the disapproval of the powers that be precisely because they push the boundaries of society.

    But there is little benefit and great damage in quashing all unorthodox views in our universities.

  210. 250

    Puddybud spews:

    Remember, the knights and common people who became knights to fight the Muslims like Saladin were told that they would be remembered in heaven for their deeds. The Muslims thought they were protecting their land from the infidels. Kind of like the 72 virgin argument of today. Both arguments are wrong.

    Go back and address history. Abraham’s son Issac had claim to the land. Canaan was given to him with Ismael receiving the northern more mountainous territory. Hence God told the Israelites upon returning home to Canaan to not bother the descendents of Ismael as their land was their promised inheritance.

  211. 251

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Having read much of this thread, I can’t help wondering if prr is a very small person with a very large inferiority complex.

  212. 252

    Puddybud spews:

    Nindid: It’s your side that elevated Churchill to prominence. He was on all the talk shows. His shit didn’t stink. When we on the right proved his errors, you all became more vehement in your support of him. The yelling racheted to a untenable crescendo until the CU Board of Regents had to address his speeches for their inflammatory statements. 9-11 survivors were pissed at his statements, hence his partial retraction but his smug attitude. Don’t you remember this?

  213. 253

    Puddybud spews:

    ;) Funny, I thought PRR meant Progressive Roger Rabbit in a cynical sense! :) Naaah RR just kidding of course. You know biting huimor at it’s best o) !

  214. 254

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    48

    … here we have prr talking like he walks the talk … actually it’s more like a dead run … away from a 9 5/16ths lb. bunny …

  215. 255

    sven spews:

    Nindid,

    Leaving aside all other arguments, if he cannot even maintain his own integrity in his own research and publications, is he really a viable role model fro our children?

  216. 256

    Dr. E spews:

    xmasghost
    ““I’d lose very little sleep if people strated killing liberals”
    that’s not fascist-speak…that’s just moronic.”

    Yup, there’s a fine line between fascistic and moronic. A dangerous one, too.

  217. 258

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @84
    “Anyone else want to see these guys banned from the board? I’d love to have discussions about this stuff, but this vitriol just poisons the whole process.”

    No. Allowing the light of day to shine on these vermin is the best antiseptic.

  218. 259

    Dr. E spews:

    “Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.”
    —Adolf Hitler

  219. 260

    marks spews:

    JCH @62

    55…..I have a neighbot who calls himself a Jew. I think I’ll treat him with the respect he deserves.

    I am not sure which way you are going, but your track record makes me think of gas chambers. If that is the case, you are a miserable piece of shit.

    JCH @73

    America is sooooooooo evil under Bush that many American blacks are swimming for Haiti and Cuba!!!

    Okay, I was too soft. You are a racist piece of shit.

    Christmasghost @179

    ****** and “proud leftist” i condemn absolutely what prr said. it’s appalling and i don’t care what his other views are…once he said that he became just another idiot.

    I’ve always liked you. Thanks…

    Sorry, that may be the kiss of death here for one or both of us…

  220. 261

    christmasghost spews:

    proud leftist@220….are you kidding? roger’s satire? have you actually read the vile tripe that he comes out with?
    yes…sometimes he is amusing in a sort of “look at me, look at me” sort of way. like watching the really annoying kid in class jump in and out of his chair. but then he goes on rants that call for violence. i don’t think that’s ever okay………do you really? and tell me what is satirical about calling for arming yourself? satire usually has to be at least a little funny and roger is never funny. anyone that talks [incessantly] about himself in the third person is a little strange to say the least……
    shoe@215…..says…

    “But just to emphasize my point, that is not nearly the same thing as voter intimidtion, rampant Wedge Politics, the K Street Project, or numerous other examples of RNC perfidy.”
    >>>of course you don’t see anything wrong with what the DNC does. isn’t it funny how blind you are to people in “your tribe” committing the same acts yet you defend them by saying “oh yeah? well lookie what so and so did”
    oh brother………grow up….you can’t be a a hypocrite forever.

  221. 262

    christmasghost spews:

    marks…thank you. i have always appreciated your posts also.for some on here us agreeing with each other on anything will be the kiss of death…true. but then who cares what an idiot thinks anyway? :)

  222. 263

    spews:

    I dont know this proffesor but judging from what he said I wouldn’t be the least bit suprised it this was a big lie. We all know lefties lie, just ask Dan Rather.

  223. 264

    K spews:

    Some really ugly comments here. “He must be a liar, and if he isn’t he got what he deserves”. Does that about summarize it?

    How sad.

  224. 265

    spews:

    264

    No not at all K… I am just saying that lefties lie that is all. I do not advocate physical violence against anybody. But do I trust a liberal, no way.

  225. 266

    Michael spews:

    @94 Last I checked, evolution was a theory too. Should we stop teaching all theories?

    @123 The public school has to include everybody in such a way that no child feels less approved of.

    That is liberal speak for “no child should feel approved of at all, because then there will be someone less approved of.

    @137 What merits of Intelligent Design? It doesn’t have any; it’s just a lie some people made up. If there were something to discuss, that would be different.
    also @145 There is nothing that can be done to test whether it is true or false.

    They aren’t discussing very scientific things like, I don’t know, irreducibile complexity? Evolutionists have been trying to disprove it for a century and failed. I have a question for you, in evolution, which came first, the heart or the circulatory system?

    @197 What there is, is a vast amount of emprical evidence that the theory that encompasses the event (or process) you mention is sound and predictive.

    Actually, the odds are it would take many times the age of the universe for the protien structures necessary for life to form by random mutations. That doesn’t sound very convincing to me.

  226. 268

    Proud to be an Ass spews:

    Windie, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that eveolution is real? Why does your side throw a conniption every time people want to introduce an alternative theory to the students? Why does evolution have to be the ONLY theory introduced to students?

    Comment by Puddybud— 12/6/05 @ 4:22 pm

    Pudster, you claim to have a background in physics and then write drivil like this? Are you claiming ID is a scientific theory? You can’t be serious.

  227. 269

    Proud to be an Ass spews:

    Actually, the odds are it would take many times the age of the universe for the protien structures necessary for life to form by random mutations. That doesn’t sound very convincing to me.

    This statement displays a profound ignorance of probability.

  228. 270

    Proud to be an Ass spews:

    Evolutionists have been trying to disprove it for a century and failed.

    This is a lie.

  229. 271

    Puddybud spews:

    Proud he is an ASS: Prove to us Evolution is not a theory? I am still waiting for man to create matter. Yet most stuff coming from the left on this topic is anti-matter.

    You see Intelligent Design by looking out the window each and every day. If there was this “Big Bang”, God caused it!

  230. 272

    Puddybud spews:

    RPope: Are you saying a another progressive liberal is S T R E T C H I N G the T R U T H? Tell me it ain’t so, joe!

  231. 273

    Heath spews:

    Puddybud —

    Nobody needs to respond to your questions about how well established evolution is, as a fact. That’s what science books are foor. You’ve already demonstrated that you don’t read them, so I wish you would stop asking people here to explain to you.

  232. 274

    thor spews:

    This prosessor did make some pretty stupid comments, and I suppose in Kansas that rasies the posibility that some god fearing thugs will chase you down and beat you up.

    But at least he isn’t a science professor. ID belongs in a theology or a philosophy class, not in a biology class. Only a few of the most stridently ID focused religious ideologues believe otherwise. But that’s no reason to beat them up.

    Writers have been benefitting from the debate between the Old Testiment dogma and evolutionary Science for decades. It sells books. Unfortunately the ID PR campaign is also given cover by the Gates Foundation – which ought to be more interested in growing the best minds in science, as opposed to wasting their time on a major sidetracks like ID, which has yet to produce any benefits beyond notoriety for its promoters.

    Science has saved lives and made our lives better. It can do more.

  233. 275

    Commander Ogg spews:

    I find it amusing that all of these alleged small “guvment’ types change there tune real quick when it comes to pushing an item or agenda they support.

    As noted in the latest issue of Skeptic, the intelligent designers, unable to get the scientific and academic community to accept there their crackpot theories, now want the government to force students to listen to them.

    That is not how it works people. A scientific theory IS NOTA THEORY if you can not test it under controlled conditions, duplicate the results, and subject it to peer review. It must also be falsifiable, in other words, it must be conceivable to prove the hypothesis to be false. If a proposition is not falsifiable, then it is not a hypothesis, and instead an opinion or statement outside of the scope of scientific inquiry. Evolutionary Biology and its various disciplines have been tested over and over by the rigorous standards of the Scientific Method. It has never failed these tests.

    And with apologies to the Kansas City School board, the National Academy of Science Definition of Science does not allow you to redefine it to include supernatural phenomena, not if you want the NAS stamp of approval for your curriculum. But the Right Wing members on the board were a small part of a much larger agenda, so they did not care.

  234. 276

    Michael spews:

    You don’t believe that irreducible complexity is a testable concept? Do they let kids like you graduate middle school these days?

  235. 277

    Commander Ogg spews:

    You can not be proven wrong Michael. I am sorry, but your “intelligent designer” is ultimatly (when you remove the double speak) pointed out to be G-d. You will never get any ID person to accept the possibility that G-d does not exist.

    I am a graduate of UC Bakersfield with a Bachlors is Political Science (no suprise). I am currently going back to school for my AA in Computer Science.

  236. 281

    Commander Ogg spews:

    To quote the head of the NSA, the only contoversies lie in understanding the possible mechanisms by which evolution operates. But this is true of all science. We are still studying the force of gravity and what exacty is its nature. But gravity has been proven to exist. So does evolution.

  237. 283

    windie spews:

    Hey puddybud:

    1) A few people who claim to be scientists supporting intel. Design doesn’t make good science.

    2) In my not-so-humble opinion you’re missing the whole thrust of their argument. I happen to believe that God created the universe, et cetera. In a way, I could be considered a proponent of Intellegent design. But “intellegent Design” as presented here is anti-evidence and anti-science. Its whole purpose is to undermine the teaching of evolutionary theory and to try to slip young-earth creationism into our schools. That is wrong, and is very harmful. There is no reason that Evolutionary theory and a belief in God can’t co-exist

    a few points
    1) irreducable compexity has been disproven at length. The more you know about natural processes, the more evolution works.

    2) In no way are discovering the mechanisms of evolution, or, indeed, any other natural process somehow disproofs of God. I’ve never understood that position. I feel, in fact, that its our duty to discover as much as we can about the world so we can really understand.

  238. 284

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    I thought this thread was about CLOWN Mirecki.
    How many of you CLOWNS have actually read this idiots e-mail???
    See Post #174 for Mirecki’s magical words.
    As I told Goldy, my point is this CLOWN Mirecki should be fired for intentionally deceiving students about the content of his class.
    Don’t you believe PUBLIC SERVANT College Professors taking PUBLIC MONEY ought to at least be upfront and honest about the content of their courses??? This CLOWN clearly was going to intentionally misrepresent to be able to make his own political point. That ain’t good, is it???
    As far as the alleged beating is concerned….this CLOWN was under tremendous public pressure for his outrageous e-mail. What better way to deflect attention from HIS actions than to create a diversion!!!
    This CLOWN should have been FIRED for intentionally misrepresenting class content at a PUBLIC University!

  239. 285

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Professor Mirecki’s e-mail
    Sent Saturday, November 19, 2005
    Subject I.D. & Creationism class to be taught at KU this spring!

    To my fellow damned,

    Its true, the fundies have been wanting to get I.D. and creationism into the Kansas public schools, so I thoughtwhy don’t I do it?
    I will teach the class, with several other lefty KU professors in the sciences and humanities. Class is:
    REL 602 Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationisms and other Religious Mythologies.
    Tuesdays 7:00-9:30pm. Smith Hall room 100. Open to undergrads and grads.
    Enrollment limited to about 120. 3 credit hours.
    The fundies want it all taught in a science class, but this will be a nice slap in their big fat face by teaching it as a religious studies class under the category mythology. I expect it will draw much media attention. The university public relations office will have a press release on it in a few weeks, I also have contacts at several regional newspapers.
    Of course, I won’t actually be teaching I.D. and creationisms, but rather I’ll be teaching ABOUT I.D. and creationisms as modern mythologies, indicating that these ideas have no place in a public school science class, but can certainly be analyzed in humanities classes for their function in society. Basic approach is my usual: anthropology with a focus on religious thought and behavior.
    Any ideas for textbooks, guest lecturers and panels would be appreciated.
    So far, six faculty have eagerly signed up to lecture. I can probably pull Chancellor Hemenway into this also, especially in the light of his public comments supporting evolution.
    Doing my part to p*ss of the religious right,

    Evil Dr. P.

    This IDIOT is so arrogant, he didn’t believe his e-mails on a PUBLIC E-Mail system were public records!

  240. 286

    yearight spews:

    Commander Ogg-277 ‘..graduate of UC Bakersfield..’

    Does UC have one in Bakersfield? Or perhaps Cal State Bakersfield?

  241. 287

    Michael spews:

    @283 My question, then, is which came first, the heart or the circulatory system?

    @284 Its really even worse than @174. The class was officially listed as

    REL 602 Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design and Creationism, not
    REL 602 Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationisms and other Religious Mythologies.

    It was a clear attempt to defraud students and (federal and other) agencies that assist with tuition out of their money.

  242. 288

    windie spews:

    286

    Without doing any research right now, most likely the circulatory system. There are many MANY species with simpler hearts than the one we have as humans

    Michael, you seem to be conflating “I don’t know how it works” with “It can’t work”> They’re very very different.

  243. 289

    Daddy Love spews:

    puddybud @ 223
    You make no sense.

    If there was no Intelligent Design, anyone could create anything they wanted. I think I want a Bentley Continental Flying Spur! I would get a whole bunch of dirt together, wave my magic want and presto, I have my Spur. You can’t do any of that DaddyLove!
    Of course you can’t. But that “proves” nothing but that the universe operates according to what we call “natural laws” but seem to be fundamental properties arising out of quantum fluctuations durig the first few nanoseconds of the big Bang (according to prevailing thought). Evolution by natural selection has been occuring ever since.

    God is in control and His Intelligent Design is what we live under.
    You are assuming what you are required to prove.

    And the crap that the World is 20,000 years old is crap.
    You are correct. I believe the figure is more like 4.5 billion years.

  244. 290

    Michael spews:

    There really isn’t any evidence of an animal, let’s say a mammal, evolving from something that didn’t have a heart into something that did. One could say that a defining characteristic of a mammal that has a heart is that it must have a heart. It is not capable of existing without a heart. It never was.

  245. 291

    Daddy Love spews:

    Ah, Michael @ 266…

    @94 Last I checked, evolution was a theory too. Should we stop teaching all theories?
    You are making the mistake of confusing your layman’s understanding of what a “theory” is with how scientists use the term. The Creationism/ID guys WANT you to to be confused in that way. You are using the term theory as scientists use the term “hypothesis;” that is, a provisional idea whose merit is still yet to be evaluated. A hypothesis requires more work by the researcher in order to either confirm or disprove it. In the hypothetico-deductive method, a hypothesis should be falsifiable, meaning that it is possible that it be shown false, usually by observation.

    Here’s one for your education (according to Wikipedia): In various sciences, a theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a certain natural or social phenomenon, thus either originating from or supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations made that is predictive, logical, testable, and has never been falsified. (my emphasis)

    in evolution, which came first, the heart or the circulatory system?
    Here’s an answer for you: “in evolution,” what we see now as a heart and circulatory systems evolved over time from simpler structures, such as osmotic delivery of nutrients. In some places, more organisms with more complex circulatory systems had a survuval advantage and thus reproduced and today we see the descendants of those organisms, as well as organisms without hearts and circulatory systems. Ummm, do you believe that the “Designer” is an omnipotent, omniscient, and all-good God?cancer?

    Actually, the odds are it would take many times the age of the universe for the protein structures necessary for life to form by random mutations.”
    Give me a break, Michael. I don’t know where you’re pikcing up your “odds;” is it from a creationist site or is this Behe’s newest conjecture? I am not an evolutionary biologist, but I know people who are. They beg to differ with Behe here and specifically here (refuting Behe’s 2002 lecture point by point).

  246. 292

    Daddy Love spews:

    Michael @ 289
    There certainly is no, nor would there have to be, “a mammal without a heart,” for volution mby natural selection to be valid. Mammals descended from earlier organisms with simpler circulatory systems, but those organisms weren’t “mammals.”

    Really, why don’t you go read up a little on the theory you would like to poke holes in before you make more such ignorant statements?

  247. 293

    Michael spews:

    An animal either does or does not have a system of repetitively moving nutrients through its systems. Yes, some are more developed than others. But there must be some starting point, if we are to believe that animals without hearts evolved into animals that do. And you still haven’t explained how that started.

  248. 294

    windie spews:

    @292 I’ll repeat: ignorance is not equal to impossibility. Just for you tho, here are some facts about the subject, its amazing what you can find with a little research.

    (stolen from the ever-useful wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....ory_system)

    An example of an animal with no circulatory system is the flatworm (class Turbellaria). They have a mouth leading into a digestive system. The digestive system is very branched, and because the worm is so flat, digested materials can be diffused to all the cells of the flat worm. Oxygen can diffuse from water into the cells of the flatworm. Thus every cell is able to obtain nutrients, water and oxygen without the need of a transport system.

    The circulatory system of arthropods and most mollusks is open, meaning that there are no capillaries and veins: one or more hearts pump the blood (more properly called hemolymph in this case) through the arteries to spaces called sinuses which surround the organs, allowing the tissues to exchange materials with the hemolymph. The hemolymph is drawn back into the heart as the heart relaxes.

    The circulatory systems of all vertebrates, as well as of annelids (for example, earthworms) and cephalopods (squids and octopuses) are closed, meaning that the blood never leaves the system of blood vessels consisting of arteries, capillaries and veins.

    The systems of fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals show various stages of evolution.

    In fish, the system has only one circuit, with the blood being pumped through the capillaries of the gills and on to the capillaries of the body tissues. This is known as single circulation. The heart of fish is therefore only a single pump (consisting of two chambers).

    In amphibians and reptiles, a double circulation is used, but the heart is not always completely separated into two pumps. Amphibians have a three-chambered heart.

    Birds and mammals show complete separation of the heart into two pumps, for a total of four heart chambers; it is thought that the four-chambered heart of birds evolved independently of that of mammals.

    (order changed some, but otherwise unedited)

    If you can’t see a genearl timeline for the development of the circulatory system you’re specifically trying not to.

    Why would God try to trick us by making the most obvious answer wrong?

  249. 295

    Daddy Love spews:

    Michael @ 292
    An animal either does or does not have a system of repetitively moving nutrients through its systems.
    No, they all do.

    But there must be some starting point, if we are to believe that animals without hearts evolved into animals that do.
    The “starting point” is chemicals in seawater, I think.

    And you still haven’t explained how that started.
    I believe I have already stated that I am not an evolutionary biologist. Why don’t you ask one?

  250. 297

    sven spews:

    daddy,

    The “starting point” is chemicals in seawater, I think.

    Which is where proof breaks down, since we should be able to spontaneously create life: we have lots of seawater and chemicals…..

    I do find it interesting that the story of a beating has become almost completely saturated with a debate on evolution…

  251. 298

    windie spews:

    I think the trick is, ‘if we knew how’. There have been some very interesting experiments done with that (synthesizing dna-precursers in the lab from natural substances)… But they’re missing a few steps still. Again, don’t conflate “Not understood” with “impossible”.

    I think it was natural. We all agree (I hope) that he shouldn’t have been beaten up. The only reason its a story at all is because he was beaten up over evolution…

  252. 299

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Richard Pope—
    Good….I’m glad this lying CLOWN resigned his post as Chair.
    NO ONE in Public Education should INTENTIONALLY misrepresent their class content to students who are paying BIG BUCKS and signing up in good faith.
    Now CLOWN Mirecki needs to resign as a Professor!!!
    Resigning as Chair still does not penalize adequately a Professor who intentionally misrepresented and LIED about the content of his course.
    Goldy has been mighty silent on this one lately.
    Goldy probably believes since this CLOWN is a bigtime LEFTY he deserves our forgiveness and we should overlook his violation of Public trust.
    Hellllllloooooooooooo GOLDY!!?

  253. 301

    Puddybud spews:

    Cynical, don’t hold your breath on Goldy. His premise was about the beating. Mirecki’s resignation will NOT be added as an update! It doesn’t further Goldy’s agenda.

  254. 302

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Puddy-
    That appears to be the case.
    And frankly, I doubt seriously that there was a “beating” other than the one Mirecki gave himself by LYING about his course content to potential students!
    Goldy likes them LIARS if they are LEFTIST PINHEADED CLOWNS!

  255. 303

    Michael spews:

    @300 on a sidenote, we seem to have chased ‘Michael the closeted creationist’ off!

    I had a group project due at 6:45 then class till 9:00. UW Tacoma for the win!

    @298 The only reason its a story at all is because he was beaten up over evolution…

    Your assumption that he was beaten up over evolution is based solely on your own prejudice against Christians, not on any facts related to the case. A man who makes a living antagonizing Christians gets beat up. It must have been the Christians. By the way, I am not a Christian, I am Pagan. But I don’t believe that the world as we know it is the sum of random interactions over the past few billion years.

  256. 304

    Richard Pope spews:

    The story of Mirecki’s alleged “beating” keeps getting more and more suspicious as it is critically analyzed:

    http://worldnetdaily.com/news/.....E_ID=47805

    If Mirecki’s story turns out to be a hoax, you can be sure that Goldy WILL NOT START A THREAD ABOUT IT BEING A HOAX.

    According to the Associated Press, there have been more than 20 hate crime hoaxes in the college community in the last several years. To quote about one incident from the above article:

    Among the more notorious was one that took place last year at Claremont College in California. Professor Kerri Dunn spoke feverishly at a campus event on “Hate Speech vs. Free Speech,” walked to her 1992 Honda Civic, and found it spray-painted with anti-black, anti-female, and anti-Semitic slurs, which was curious since Dunn was of Irish descent. True to form, the humiliated college canceled the next day’s classes and staged a mass rally the next night, at which Dunn claimed to much applause, “This was a well planned out act of terrorism.”

    As it turned out, alas, the FBI and local police quickly smoked out Dunn’s story and discovered that she herself had terrorized her car.

  257. 305

    windie spews:

    wow… I never thought I’d run into a young-earth Creationist Pagan.

    Just don’t get the kids these days…

  258. 306

    Daddy Love spews:

    Richard Pope
    WorldNetDaily is a source of “critical analysis?” Right.

    The local paper reports that “Friends say Mirecki suffered a chipped tooth, possibly a concussion and some bruises.”

    Not very hoax-like.

  259. 307

    Daddy Love spews:

    Michael
    …I don’t believe that the world as we know it is the sum of random interactions over the past few billion years.
    Again, I think you err. Your error seems to me to be rooted in asumptions about what you call “random interactions.” It looks like you think that this means “unguided changes.” Nothing could be further from the truth. Changes in organisms aon earth were surely and truly guided–just not by supernatural forces. They were and are guided by the natural world. “Natural selection” means just that–fail to adapt to your environment and die. Adapt and live. World gets warmer? World gets colder? Vegetation changes? Volcano erupts? Continents drift? Fail to adapt and die–adapt and live. This “guidance” has been in place for 4.5 billion years.

    FYI on speciation for those who like a good read.

  260. 308

    Michael spews:

    Natural selection doesn’t mean that species naturally evolve into something more advanced, it means that all life undergoes random mutations, but those that end up better off have a better chance of survival and a better chance of reproducing and spreading their mutated genes.

  261. 309

    Daddy Love spews:

    Michael
    Duh.

    But the whole point is that the process of natural selection is the “guidance” which makes the end result of billions of years of life on this planet appear so specialized and complex. Almost as if each instance of it were designed for the conditions of its life. And it was–by the deaths of all the ones that were less well “designed” for that life.

  262. 310

    windie spews:

    if “more advanced” = “having a better chacne of reproducing” then we’re in agreement.

    I don’t think you really thought that post out too well.

  263. 311

    Daddy Love spews:

    Can I comment on WorldNetDaily’s thoughts that maybe it really WASN’T Christian thugs who beat up Mirecki because THAT’S NOT SOMETHING CHRISTIANS DO. Do tell.