It’s my flag, and I can burn it if I want to

I have been known, occasionally — maybe once or twice — to politely and constructively criticize the Seattle Times editorial board for its periodic fits of self-serving, head-up-its-ass, propagandistic bullshit. So it’s only fair that I offer my kudos when they publish an editorial with which I wholeheartedly agree. Um… kudos.

Congress plans to waste time this week on the hardy perennial and all-around bad idea of amending the U.S. Constitution to outlaw flag desecration.

[…]

While it is unnerving to see our powerful symbol of freedom and independence burned or desecrated, it remains an expression of free speech that must be protected. Free speech trumps the insult of flag burning every time.

The right to express disapproval of our country, its policies and its flag is an important and protected right of free expression. When the American flag is burned in other countries

Comments

  1. 1

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    After the flag amendment passes, we should arrest any Republican in possession of a flag. Three years for possession, and tack on another five years if the flag was made in China.

  2. 2

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    D’Ass, your hero sat reading “My Pet Goat” when he could be leading. Great leadership training. . . going AWOL from the National Guard.

  3. 3

    LeftTurn spews:

    I have never had any interest in burning a flag in my life nor have I ever seen anyone burn a flag nor do I know anyone who has seen a flag burned. This is just another republican stunt designed to try to take America’s mind off our real problems. But if the GOP wants to worry about flag burning – go for it. I’ll burn one tonight just because I fucking can.

  4. 4

    das spews:

    11.

    Grammar alert:
    penultimate just means “second from the last”; it is not a superlative in any way. Cheers.

  5. 6

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    How are they gonna enforce this law? “Disrespect” is highly subjective. For example, every time I see a Republican waving the flag, I consider that disrespectful, because Republicans are contemptuous of everything the flag stands for.

    Republicans are draft dodgers.
    Republicans smear our war heroes.
    Republicans don’t believe in the Bill of Rights.
    Republicans don’t support our system of government.
    Republicans won’t pay taxes to support our government and its aims.

  6. 7

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Wedge issue for the rubes, plain and simple. Last week it was Gay Marriage, next week, whether to support a constitutional amendment that allows overweight, pill popping horn dogs the right to keep and arm Viagra. Crap.

    But useful crap for the masses, it encourages “Right” thinking and “Right” voting.

    Inflation is up, wages are down, Crime is rising, but fear not, your guvment is dealing with a much more serious issue: Gay marriage flag burning terrorist. Ooh Rah!

    Might work, what with the lapdog press ready to roll over and get its belly scratched at the snap of Karl Roves finger. We will find out this November.

  7. 9

    JDB spews:

    russb:

    Just be happy that our two Senators don’t think we are a bunch of idiot reactionaries.

    Guess this and gay marriage disapears from the Senate until 2008. What will the GOP do?

  8. 10

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    I say let the NY Times tell all the secrets. Next I would place Nancy Pelosi’s face or Harry Reid’s face next to the NY Times and say this is the party that doesn’t care about your safety. Then I would say: Do you really want these people in charge of America”?

  9. 12

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    I also take issue with the idea that this isn’t important.

    Damn few thing seem as important as flag burning appears to be. All fifty states passed laws to ban flag burning, and since SDOTUS overturned the federal and state laws, all fifty legislatures have asked Congress to pass an amendment. For forty years people have been voicing support of barring people from burning a flag.

    The ERA never got that kind of support.

  10. 14

    das spews:

    There is an enormous amount of charm and innocence in sitting deep in the fat of freedom talking about how fascist America is. Push yourself off from the keyboard harry, get on your skateboard smell the green-filled air, eat dinner from any of the world’s wonderful cuisines, feel the sun on you, go down to lake Washington and shake out the cobwebs of fantasy that you use to stoke up your political indignation. Fascism, yeah, right, now go up to Evergreen and bow before the white crosses and with a tear, apologize to the men who died so that you could indulge yourself in endless whimsy about fascism.

  11. 16

    rhp6033 spews:

    Gee,nobody hazarded a guess on # 1. The author was Winston Churchill, speaking in Scotland in 1908.

  12. 17

    das spews:

    69.

    I still consider myself some kind of liberal Harry. Scuse me for not following the lemmings over the insane cliff of Bush-hatred. I see you down at the bottom of the ravine, impotent, shattered , perishing of your own foolishness.

    By the way what do you know about terrorist creation? I can only guess that in your view human beings do not have personal will nor personal responsibility. What are the means and mechanisms of all this terrorist creation, pray tell.? America just by being America creates terrorists? Wonderful free America the place where millions of common people want to come and live is also a great creator of terrorists? How so? Or maybe when an American soldier appears a terrorist materializes. And because we create these terrorists – supposedly – we cannot confront them or in any way deal with them? By the way, did we create the terrorist murderers of the Sudan? The murdering terrorists of Algeria? Did we create the El Hamma terrorist murderers of Syria? My guess is that you are trying to say in a clumsy and uninformed way that America is the cause of all the problems of the world or some kind of Chomskyite rubbish. Do we create terrorists when we defend ourselves? Like that villain in the Matrix movies who, when you strike him, multiplies himself by the hundred? But that is a science fiction movie. How in reality does America create terrorists?

  13. 18

    das spews:

    Just as I thought:

    None of Goldy’s Palace Guard can articulate how it is that America creates terror (I’ll ignore the physical threat Frog boy, there’s a lot of that around here – none directed at terrorists, though: figures). They just repeat a leftoid bromide that has no meaning. It’s better to open up the cloaca maxima or make physical threats: that’s what happens when you hit the wall of ideology; you run out of cliches and become a cliche.

  14. 19

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    60.
    Smedley Butler helped destroy a Fascist putsch in the mid-1930s, but how long did his efforts protect us? In 1960, all four liberal leaders were assassinated. In the ’90s the Bill of Rights and Constitution were rolled back with a series of crime bills. In 2000, Jim Crow came back and a presidential election election was stolen by stopping 50,000 African-Americans to vote in Florida. Then GWB’s Oreo did the same in Ohio in 2004.

    Welcome to fascism in the 20th century.

  15. 20

    proud leftist spews:

    das
    You are a frightened and frightening ideologue. You can go ahead and live out your life in fear of the coming jihad. Board up your doors and shut your shades, and never enjoy the public square. The left is about freedom. You are about scare tactics. I pity you.

  16. 21

    rhp6033 spews:

    Note from Rove’s memo on strategy for the Nov. 2005 campaign:

    Have Congress spend all their time before the August recess forcing votes on issues which can then be distorted and used in attack adds to air September/October 2006. Among issues to be brought up for a vote:

    (a) the Iraq war. Any democratic vote against full support for Bush to conduct the war as he sees fit will turn into a “Democratic candidate XXXXXXX supports terrorists!” ad.

    (b) Flag Burning. Any vote against a constitutional amendment will turn into a “Democratic candidate XXXXX believes in burning the American Flag as a protest!”

    (c) ANWR Oil Drilling – It won’t affect gas prices anytime – now or the future – but a vote against “exploratory drilling” in the ANWR will turn into a “Democrate Candidate XXXXXX believes Americans should pay higher gas prices!” ad.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there are also votes to cut some social services which Democrats will be compelled to protect by way of vote or fillibuster. The Republicans really don’t want to see the cut before November, although they may plan to make the cuts after November, if they are still in office. They will just want to try to come up with some argument that the Democrats are responsible for the budget deficit, instead of themselves.

    How to counter such campaigns: Hit hard, and hit now. Get television coverage of the negative campaign tactics, make sure they predict the type of ads which will be seen. Then Rove has to decide what to do with them. If he runs them, it becomes obvious that he is attempting to manipulate the voters, and it isn’t effective because they are “blanks” in his pistol. He may just decide to shelve them.

  17. 22

    sgmmac spews:

    Roger, I’ve never burned one either. When they are old and tattered – they are supposed to be burned. I got a very nice one when I retired – but alas, it’s in my attic along with my other Army stuff.

    I participated and watched hundreds of ceremonies with flags and it would hurt me to see someone burn a US flag, but the flag does stand for tolerance of others and because someone doesn’t agree with the majority doesn’t make them wrong.

  18. 23

    JDB spews:

    It is interesting when you look at the vote, it was basically the West and the North that saved us from having to prosecute President Bush for flag desercration.

    Why do the West and the North hate America so?

  19. 24

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    Loved this:…………..~~ If Democrats fail to address social concerns, Sharpton said he has not ruled out a run for president in 2008. ~~ [………………………………………………………………….Run, Al, Run!!! Al Sharpton…….A great Third Party Candidate!!!!!!!!!!!]

  20. 25

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    I say, let RancidButtPutty spew his nonsense all over. . . Do you really want a wingnut like this in chargemof America.

  21. 26

    das spews:

    I love the vast sense of luxury and the fruitbat left indulges in when it mocks jihad terror. Ensconced in the fat of freedom, cozy as raisins in a big ball of dough, they mock jihad terror. Should they ever wander into the ken of the jihad murderers though, all that free bravado would be transformed into pee and prayers; and should our little leftist raisins be rescued from that dragon lair they would praise our military and visionary leadership (I kind of doubt that last one, though).

  22. 29

    proud leftist spews:

    rhp @ 67
    Pretty remarkable what these people will argue about, isn’t it? Unfortunately, though I doubt Christmasghost is aware of it, many on the far right do not accept Marbury still. Tom DeLay, for instance, proposed that Congress limit the courts’ jurisdiction to consider certain constitutional issues. Republicans in Congress have also proposed simply not funding the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals because they consider this circuit too liberal. These freaks can’t stand anyone who would deny them what they want, and they’ll gladly tamper with 200 years of constitutional process if they think that will help them achieve some transitory goal.

  23. 30

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    I present to you D’Ass, a brainiac who decided, after seeing the failure of his policies, that he’d start voting for GWB in 2004!!!!

    That make D’Ass about the stupidist motherfucker you’ll ever have the displeasure of coming across.

  24. 31

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    75

    Fuck you, you lying asshole.

    You can’t even talk about liberalism intelligently, you know not one thing about it.

    Consider yourself a lying rightwing nut.

  25. 33

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    D”ass’ ignorance of history, and inability to perceive the real patriots all around him here on HA is truly remarkable. You prattle on and on, without a thought to the fact that saying any of these twittering, foolish libels in the actual presence of the many, many liberal, progressive patriots in this country could get you thrashed.
    What would be even funnier would be his attempting to articulate these same sentiments around some of our liberall bretheren currently serving in Iraq. . .so simpering idiots like him can spew this nonsense.

  26. 34

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    This time-consuming nonsense, which should fall under the category “common sense” is the penultimate example of the very thing liberals live for: government control of EVERYTHING.

    You liberals have focused on the idea that people are too stupid to think for themselves, to use their own common sense and that someone (liberals in the form of governemt) has to help them cradle to grave.

    You proudly claim you’re rabid liberals… enjoy what your ideologies brought about… and certainly expect MORE.

  27. 35

    russb spews:

    The senate roll call is now up here.

    It is appalling that this constitution desecration amendment was defeated by a single vote, 66 for to 34 against. Both Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell voted nay.

  28. 37

    das spews:

    Cheers to you Goldy for publishing the cartoons then, I missed that.

    Love your “so-called”; reminds me of the condemned under Stalin. They wailed and wailed as they were carried off, “Just let me talk to Koba, just one more time, he’ll clear all this up!” Then they’d go out and get a shovel in the head (why waste bullets when you’re whacking 1000 a day). These were Stalin’s favorite after dinner anecdotes. I’m sure your beloved jihadis will spare you the blade at your throat because you qualified the war on terror with “so called”.

  29. 38

    Kyle Broflovski spews:

    I agree, it’s a dumb amendment, but when you have groups like the VFW pushing it, there is some strange political sense to it, but not much.

  30. 39

    sven spews:

    I really don’t support it as an amenedment, I personally dont appreciate flag burning, but I hate to see the constitution used to limit rights (i don’t support the marriage amendment either).

    But…it is wildly popular with the public, so I think that it could eventually pass anyway.

    The mob mentality is one of the consequences of a democratic society.

  31. 40

    Jane spews:

    Yikes! Girl Scouts burn Flags too. I’m a Girl Scout leader and we retire old, used flags by burning them. Horrors! Anyone want to beat up a bunch of little girls for burning the flag? Seriously, I am fearful and this year, I did not send photos of our event to the newspaper for fear of a zealot (i.e. conservative) getting the wrong idea. I discussed the issue with my Virginia Congressmen who assured me that we are not targets, and to trust them. I trust them all the way to GITMO!!!!

  32. 41

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    46

    Mac — The only problem with Washington’s on-line gambling law is how a stupid bureaucrat chose to interpret it. Don’t worry, the courts will straighten him out.

    Destroying property is against the law. No problem here that can’t be solved by arrest, prosecution, and sentencing.

    I’ve never had a hankering the burn the flag; but it’s tempting to do it, just once, to piss off the anti-free-speech thug party.

  33. 42

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    11

    Ass — how is government micro-management of what people do with their flags LESS government and LESS bureaucratic intrusion?

  34. 43

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    9

    D’Ass, you are a blind fool. Our country has never been so close to the Stalin scenario as we are right now. We are infinitely more likely to have concentration camps, midnight arrests, and secret executions under a Republican government than we are under the Democrats.

  35. 44

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    The subject is free speech… and the 3 loony lefty justices… you know, those doddering old fools from your side… that oppose it.

  36. 45

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    Taking absolutist positions on issues such as this is a poor choice, I think. Free speech isn’t absolute, there are all sorts of societal barriers to saying anyting you want to. I sure wouldn’t put up with much of the shots taken at me, if they were uttered to my face.

    The story out of Brooklyn sure pisses me off. If there is such a thing as a hate crime, why wouldn’t that example qualify?

  37. 47

    Yossarian spews:

    Nobody should care about a bunch of dumbasses burning any flag, book, or other icon. It’s the stuff that spoiled little kids do and is of no consequence to adults.

  38. 48

    For the Clueless spews:

    Can’t scare people with fluoridated water anymore?

    One can easily see the connections with Das’ “all Stalin, all the time” comments and the old Bircher paranoia.

  39. 49

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    Those who think that I should be fined or jailed or punished in any way for a symbolic exercise of free speech should be ashamed of themselves. -by Goldy, 06/27/2006, 9:45 AM

    You were saying?

  40. 50

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS spews:

    The shocking news in yesterday’s Supreme Court ruling on Vermont’s campaign-finance law is that three Justices essentially voted to repeal the First Amendment…

    As for the three First Amendment opponents, Justices David Souter, John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg voted to support Vermont’s limits. Justice Stevens seemed to think it would be great for democracy if candidates were able to spend nothing to promote their message to voters over the airwaves; then, he wrote, every campaign might be like the Lincoln-Douglas debates. We’re not sure what century he’s living in…

    With JP Stevens at 86 years old, GW is virtually guaranteed another nominee… Thank God!

  41. 51

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    18.

    The amendment allows Congress to make laws. It would require enabling statutory legislation.

  42. 53

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    howcanyoubePROUDtobeanASS,

    Is it just attention you’re looking for. Do you have an opinion on the subject at hand?

  43. 54

    GottaBeRight spews:

    Roger @ 18

    You must be one of the most disingenuous people I’ve had the pain to read. Who screwed your monkey and twisted your head so cockeye’d???

  44. 55

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    If this amendment passes, it should be illegal to purchase a flag made in China. That is disrespectful to American workers. Only made-in-America flags should be allowed. Anyone who flies a made-in-China flag is a commie sympathizer. Companies like Wal-Mart who sell foreign-made flags should be fined $1 million per flag, and their CEOs should be executed.

  45. 56

    proud leftist spews:

    11
    It’s remarkable that you are able to breathe and wipe your ass at the same time. Your post reflects an absolute inability to recognize just what the hell you’re talking about. You reference”time-consuming nonsense.” Who is raising this time-consuming nonsense at this time? Republicans, of course. You reference liberals seeking “government control of EVERYTHING.” Who wants to control behavior here and curtail freedom? Republicans, of course. You reference liberals focusing on people being “too stupid to think for themselves.” Who doesn’t trust Americans to think for themselves and needs to limit how they express dissent? Republicans, of course. I appreciate the amusement you provide.

  46. 57

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    I say let the left burn the flag. Then when one of their flag burners is put on TV place Nancy Pelosi’s face next to it and say “Do you really want these people in charge of America”?

    Nuff said pimples!!!

  47. 58

    proud leftist spews:

    Whatever happened to the old conservative mantra to the effect that “If I’m not hurting anyone else, then stay the hell out of my business?” Burning a flag might offend someone, but it sure doesn’t hurt anyone. A conservative with integrity (boy, that’s a quaint concept) should scream loudly against a flag-burning amendment.

  48. 60

    ivan spews:

    das @ 2:

    Oooh, the jihadists! The evil, nasty jihadists! Run! Hide! What’s the matter, wingnut? Can’t scare people with fluoridated water anymore?

  49. 61

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    6

    Goldy, I suspect what they’re thinking is that if somebody in, say, Pakistan or Nigeria or wherever burns a U.S. flag, they’ll send in the Marines to “enforce the law.” I know the wingnut mentality well enough to see they want to make flag burning illegal EVERYWHERE, not just in the U.S., and this will give them a perfect excuse to invade other countries.

  50. 62

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    If Rush’s last name was Kennedy he could’ve mixed booze and painkillers together with Viagra and then crashed his car through a concrete barrier and killed Mary Jo. The next day he could have a news conference where he wears a white neck brace and sobs that he’s a poor drug addicted liberal Democrat that needs rehab, and the dumb ass MSM and liberal Democrats would buy every word.

  51. 63

    das spews:

    ho hum Harry, ho hum; you’ve hit the limit of your ideology and are now going in for excrement fling and defamation. Breathe deep and try to answer some of my questions, Har. Or maybe, as I expect, you don’t know how America creates terrorists. Maybe you were just mindlessly repeating a little leftoid homily without knowing what it implied…

    seen whose

  52. 65

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    This makes sense. Karl Rove is going to take oppostion to flag burning and use it to beat candidates over the head with.

    Solution, fight on for old Wisconsin! We’ll show those rubes we don’t need their votes.

  53. 67

    christmasghost spews:

    goldy…just a question here. has anyone in your family ever been in the military? ever shed a drop of blood for this country? no?
    yes…it’s rhetorical and i will be really surprised if his answer is yes.
    flag burning is not an expression of free speech. it’s just another lefty [insert REALLY REALLY BORING HERE] move that is used to get attention. that’s what the left is all about.[THINK CINDY SHEEHAN] they are the not-so-funny class clowns that just never grew up. they can attack the flag ,the country and everyone’s ideas but have no constructive ideas of their own.
    i suppose you think larry flynt was using “free speech” too, huh?
    free speech is about FREE SPEECH…not flag burning,porn, tying yourselves together to form a [?] human[?] chain,and picketing endlessly and mindlessly, i might add. it’s about SPEECH. only a crazy old lefty like you would consider flag burning and vandalism as free speech. so get out your little dictionary and look up the word “speech”.
    my family fought in the revolutionary war and [and every other one up to the 90’s] and i just find it appalling that it is always the “we just fell off the boat at ellis island in the early part of last century” crowd …mostly from eastern europe that BITCH BITCH BITCH constantly about america.
    you guys have been in this country for five seconds in the big scheme of things and are like the perpetual houseguest with an opinion on everything [and no experience in anything ] THAT JUST WON’T GO AWAY.

  54. 68

    proud leftist spews:

    Ghost
    Over 200 years of constitutional practice is insufficient to resolve the issue for you? You are right that any fool can read and interpret the Constitution. That does not answer my question to you, however, of who should be the final arbiter of what the Constitution means. The Constitution itself does not answer that question, and that question sparked one of this nation’s earliest constitutional crises. The Constitution does not directly answer many questions; its drafters ensured that it would be a living document, able to provide a framework for addressing questions that in 1787 could not possibly be anticipated. Without a final arbiter of what the Constitution means, chaos necessarily reigns. Let me pose a hypothetical scenario, my dimwitted damsel: suppose the executive’s interpretation of the Constitution is entitled to equal weight to that of the Supreme Court. Do you think your favored GWB would be president now? No way in hell. The Clinton White House would have have told the Court to stuff it. How do you resolve such conflicts, ye who speaks before thinking? Our current president could not distinguish the Bill of Rights from a clam chowder recipe. Those who interpret the Constitution should be those who have spent a lifetime studying it–that would be the courts, my fair fool. The power to interpret the law is the only power the courts have–they cannot make the law, nor can they enforce the law. Without the power to interpret, and without the other branches respecting such power, the courts would be, as in the Soviet Union, nothing but a rubber stamp for the executive. I suppose someone like you, who worships our fine man in the White House, would find no problem with that.

  55. 69

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    Apparently you leftist pinheads forgot some history so let the Pudster remind you

    http://www.esquilax.com/flag/history.html

    “The words of the first amendment are simple and majestic: `Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech.` The proposed constitutional amendment would undermine that fundamental liberty.” – Senator Ted Kennedy

    So I ask you donks, why do you hate this country so much that you desicrate the real meaning of our freedom the flag? Why do donks support the filthy pinhead whack job loony moonbats burning the flag? I say let’s ask our men and women in the military their thoughts on flag buerning since they swear allegiance to the flag and the Constitution when they enter the military. I gladly did when I entered ROTC.

    LeftTurd: I hope you catch on fire like that islamofascist did burning the US flag on CNN!

  56. 70

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    Daddy Love you like polls:

    NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). June 9-12, 2006. N=1,002 adults nationwide. Results below are among registered voters.

    “I’m going to read you some positions that someone running for Congress could take. For each one, please tell me whether you would be more likely to vote for a candidate for Congress who takes this position, less likely to vote for this candidate, or would it not make a difference to you either way? . . .”

    More Likely Less Likely No Difference Unsure
    ———% ———-% ———-% ———%
    “Favors adding an amendment to the Constitution that bans flag burning” 6/9-12/06
    ——–44 ———27 ———27 ———2

    Oh no a donk who supports flag burning is down 17 points!!!

    Hey donks it’s not Fox News either. Oh shit For the Cluesless says!

  57. 71

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    Hey Daddy Love a poll for you:

    CNN Poll conducted by Opinion Research Corporation. June 8-11, 2006. N=1,031 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

    “Do you favor or oppose passing a constitutional amendment which would make it illegal to burn the American flag?”

    Favor Oppose Unsure 6/8-11/06
    —-% —–% —–%
    —-56 —-40 —-4

    Damn For the Cluesless not a Fox News Poll either.

  58. 72

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    Daddy Love a poll for you:

    USA Today/Gallup Poll. June 23-25, 2006. Adults nationwide.

    “Do you favor or oppose a constitutional amendment that would allow Congress and state governments to make it illegal to burn the American flag?” N=484, MoE ± 5 (Form A)

    ——— Favor Oppose Unsure
    ————-% —-% —–%
    6/23-25/06 -56 —-41 —-3
    6/24-26/05 -55 —-42 —-3
    6/25-27/99 -63 —-35 —-2

    For the Cluesless is really pissed now as it’s not Fox News either. Ha ha ha ha ha ho ho ho ho ho he he he he he

  59. 73

    JDB spews:

    Puddy Rush Limbaugh:

    You are on a wonderfully derranged bender. What’s wrong, did your mom find your blow up “girl friend” again.

    Since you are all knowing, you have surely read the first flag burning case in front of the Supreme Court, right? Oh, that’s right, that would require knowing facts, and we know that the right believes facts are just their make you look foolish.

    Anyway, in that case, a black man on April 4, 1968 ran out and burned a flag, having just learned that Martin Luther King Jr. had been shot. He stated, as he burned it, that “if this country is not safe for Dr. King, then this flag is meaningless.”

    I know your Mom doesn’t let you out, so you don’t know anyone in the military, but all the ones I know would uphold his right to do so.

    But, Puddy, would you? Or do you really believe a piece of fabric is more important than the ideas for which it stands. The flag is an important symbol, but what does it symbolize to you, dear Puddy? Is it a tailsman of power, and so burning it means something to you? Or does it represent a group of important liberal ideas that have made this country into the greatest land in the world, despite some of the fools that are in charge of running it.

  60. 74

    LeftTurn spews:

    Well I did it. Went out in my back yard and burned a cheap $10 flag I bought at Bartells. I also burned a picture of the cowardly traitor George Bush while I was at it. The world is still turning on its access and democracy is still safe. Who would have thunk it. Like everything else the right wing turds try to do they fail at this too. I would not have even considered doing this if not for the GOP’s attempt to pull a political stunt. Sort of like abortion. Abortions went DOWN under Clinton and UP under Bush. You fucking righ wing pieces of shit can’t get anything right can you?

  61. 75

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    50

    Sorry, ghostidiot, but “my country, right or wrong” doesn’t cut it. Too easily used by evil people to suck us into things we should never get involved with. Not an intelligent approach to the world’s problems — or to our country’s problems, for that matter. You DON’T have a right to go into another country and bomb their people or patrol their villages with our soldiers just because you don’t like their government or economic system. Our country is wrong sometimes. We, as citizens of this great country, have not only the right but the duty to say so. America was founded by protesters. Its constitution and form of government were radical ideas. Free speech and the right to criticize our leaders have served us extremely well.

    But the main reason why the flag burning amendment is bullshit is because, like voter ID laws, it “solves” a problem THAT DOESN’T EXIST. When was the last time a protester burned a flag in this country? Are you going to go after foreigners who burn American flags in THEIR country? Is that a casus belli, a reason to send in U.S. troops?

  62. 76

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    59

    “but that was in 1804, right? when was the constitution enacted?????? so it was just the court’s opinion on the court’s power.”

    ghost, are you truly this dense? Yes, I’m afraid you are.

  63. 77

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    63

    D’ass, the answer to jihad terror originating in the Middle East is not fascist terror originating in America.

  64. 78

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    65

    “there is nothing in the constitution about having the right not to be offended” Commentby Janet S— 6/27/06@ 2:59 pm

    Omigod!!! Janet S can think for herself!!! My respect for her just moved up 12 notches!

  65. 79

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    68

    Our point, D’Ass, is that we don’t you right-wing fucks to turn America into a Cuba, Venezuela, or Mexico. Cuba indeed jails people for dissent; your ilk wants to jail people for dissent. Why should we let Republicans turn America into another Cuba? There’s no difference between you and Castro.

  66. 80

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    74

    “because someone doesn’t agree with the majority doesn’t make them wrong” Commentby sgmmac— 6/27/06@ 3:50 pm

    You’re making progress, Mac. Now if only you would realize the majority is sometimes wrong …

  67. 81

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    For example, the 75% of Americans who, at one time, believed Iraq was behind 9/11 were wrong …

  68. 82

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    75

    “I still consider myself some kind of liberal Harry.” Commentby das— 6/27/06@ 3:54 pm

    Wishing doesn’t make it so.

  69. 83

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    81

    A wingnut complaining about excrement flinging is like Ted Bundy complaining about crime in his neighborhood.

  70. 84

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    Fist off JDB my mother is dead so FUCK YOU! May she rest in peace until Jesus comes again. The flag is our representation of freedom. That’s why islamofascists burn it. They hate our freedoms, even yours to wipe your ass with our flag and piss on it and burn it like loony moonbat friends of yours do! Just like the Statue of Liberty is to others. I don’t worship the flag. It is not a talisman to me like the NY Times is to you.

    Au contraire, I know many people past & present in the military. My best friend you ASSHOLE is in the military now as a lifer. Dimwitted idiot. If you paid attention to my posts you would have remembered that but then again you R AN IDIOT! I had two nephews in Gulf War 2 in the military. One saved a commander from certain death and was promoted for it. DIPSHIT IDIOT. If you only knew something worthwhile you would be entertaining, instead you are a DUD!

  71. 85

    Janet S spews:

    Just for the record, I’m with Goldy on this one. And believe me, just writing that is a little painful.

    We are a secular nation, therefore nothing is “sacred” and can be desecrated. You can believe for yourself that it is, but that you can’t impose that religious belief on someone else.

    Also, there is nothing in the constitution about having the right not to be offended. My burning the flag, if it is my own, and is on my property, does not make you any less free.

  72. 86

    Commander Ogg spews:

    das, save it for the right wing noise machine and the lapdog press. The vast Majority of soldiers have more in commen with our side then yours.

    I can name several members of Congress/administration in the last 10 years that were military COMBAT vets, and they were all Dems;

    Murtha, Kerry, Lieland, Gore, Hollings, Boswell, Rangel,Inouye, Hollings, Peterson, Thompson, etc.

    Who do you guys have, except Dole, McCain, Powell, Gilchrest and Hagel?

    http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

  73. 87

    rhp6033 spews:

    Gee, “Christmas Ghost” is disputing 202 years of Constitutional Law. He wants to ignore Marburry vs. Madison???? Incredible.

    Yes, all three branches have the responsibility to preserve the Constitution. The Congress takes an oath to uphold the Constitution, and should do so. But sometimes they pass unconstitutional laws. The executive branch likewise takes an oath to uphold the Constitution. It should (and sometimes does) exercise that authority by vetoing unconstitutional legislation. But sometimes it fails to do that, and sometimes it also violates that Constitution of its own accord.

    The federal court judges also take an oath to uphold the Constitution. The issues come before them when litigants ask the court to declare a given law unconstitutional, or when asking for judicial intervention against an unconstitutional act (through an injunction or writ of habeous corpus). It is through the exercise of those responsibilities that the court makes its decisions concerning whether a law or action by the federal government is unconstitutional.

    Gee, this is basic civics. I’m surprised it is even an issue here.

  74. 88

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    82

    “It is appalling that this constitution desecration amendment was defeated by a single vote, 66 for to 34 against. Both Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell voted nay.” Commentby russb— 6/27/06@ 4:53 pm

    THIS is why Mike! must never be our senator. If the lefties all in a twist over Cantwell’s Iraq position vote third party or don’t vote, and McGavick gets in, this amendment could pass next time around. Think about it, my progressive friends. You’ve gotta be pragmatic. Hold your nose and do what you have to, to keep our fair state from being represented in the U.S. Senate by a rightwinger who would stamp out your civil liberties in a heartbeat.

  75. 89

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    So Pellet Breath those flag polls are wrong? How does it feel to be on the wrong side of an issue again Rabbit Pellet? SOmeone once said you were pasturized; you know, allowed to retire early and go to pasture because your usefulness to society passed 15 years before you retired. Something broke on that retirement day and you started thinking you were a rabbit in the pasture.

  76. 90

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    We should hold those no voting donko senators up as the reason why donks can’t run the senate ever again. Out of touch with the American people as on other issues stated here B4.

  77. 91

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    REPUBLICANS WHO VOTED “NAY” ON FLAG BURNING AMENDMENT

    Let us not forget these Republican senators who courageously bucked the wingnut hysteria:

    Bennett (UT), Chaffee (RI), McConnell (KY); and also Jeffords (Ind–VT)

  78. 92

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Actually, I don’t think the amendment was within 1 vote of passage. You can bet the Democrats knew how many “D” votes the Repubs needed, and encouraged some of their members to vote “Aye” to take a potential campaign issue away from the Pubs. I would guess the Democrats could have gotten several more votes if they needed them.

  79. 93

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    108

    Puddy — so how do you feel about Bush wiping his ass with our flag? Do you think what he’s done — invading a foreign country on false pretenses, torturing people, denying American citizens due process, illegal wiretapping, ignoring laws when he feels like it — are what our forbears fought for and shed blood for? NOT!!! You’re the last person who should wrap himself in the flag. You’re part of the problem.

  80. 94

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Pretty damned hard to maintain my respect for a flag that evil people are using as wrapping paper for an agenda that tears down everything the flag has ever stood for. I’m trying …

  81. 95

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    90

    I’d venture to say that going into other countries, pushing their citizens around, taking their resources, toppling their governments, and doing as we fucking please, is likely to get people mad at us.

  82. 96

    JDB spews:

    Puddy Rush Limbaugh:

    Bad week, eh? And I know, the bottle only goes so far in keeping down the pain.

    The flag is our representation of freedom. That’s why islamofascists burn it. They hate our freedoms, even yours to wipe your ass with our flag and piss on it and burn it like loony moonbat friends of yours do!

    You do realize that you just sort of made my arguement, don’t you? However, Al Quaeda doesn’t hate our freedom. If they did, they would be blowing up Holland and Sweden. So far the only people that seem to hate our freedoms are the GOP.

  83. 97

    das spews:

    Well it is the American flag after that generates all the excitement; we are so free and so magnanimous that we can afford to invite the world to burn our flag. It would be fun to put the chalenge to some leftoid bigmouth:

    Go to Havana, Cuba and burn their flag on the malecon at 5:00 pm. Ah…then we would see the compassion of the maximum leader pour forth. Ditto Venezuela, wonderful world-liberator, Chavez would embrace the flag burners – with a noose. Ditto, well, Mexico for that matter; try burning the Mexican flag in the Zocalo or in any small town plaza in the country. Leftoids burn the American flag because they can. The vein of liberty is so embedded in America that it will even nourish those who trash it without ceasing.

  84. 98

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    110

    What flag polls, Puttybutt? This flag poll?

    “63% oppose flag-burning amendment, new survey shows
    “News release by the First Amendment Center
    “06.10.05
    “NASHVILLE, Tenn. — The number of Americans who oppose a constitutional amendment that would give Congress the power to punish flag-burning as protest is up sharply from 2004, according to a survey released today by the First Amendment Center. The … survey, conducted in May, shows: 63% of those sampled said the U.S. Constitution ‘should not be amended to prohibit burning or desecrating the American flag,’ up from 53% in 2004 and the highest number against the proposed amendment since the annual survey began in 1997. 35% said the Constitution ‘should be amended’ — down from 45% in 2004.” http://www.firstamendmentcente.....x?id=15418

    or how about this?

    “Dousing flags with kerosene and setting them on fire, which became an eye-catching way of protesting the Vietnam War in the 1960s and 1970s, happens infrequently today. The pro-amendment Citizens’ Flag Alliance lists only three instances of flag desecration this year, including one involving a drunk who tore two small flags from a sailor’s monument in West Haven, Conn.

    “Meanwhile, the Gallup poll has chronicled a drop in public support for amending the Constitution to protect the flag, down from 71 percent in 1989 to 55 percent last year.” http://www.southcoasttoday.com.....nation.htm

    Regardless of which poll you look at, or what the specific numbers are, the trend is clear: Support is declining for a flag burning amendment, and the general public is either evenly divided on the issue, or a majority oppose such an amendment.

  85. 100

    JDB spews:

    Roger:

    Puddy Rush Limbaugh is having a bad day, check out his foolishness here: http://www.horsesass.org/my-co.....ent-436160

    The amazing thing is that Pud for brains himself, at 96, quotes the gallup polls showing the steady decline in support. So, technically, he was write, even if everything he attempted to say was wrong.

  86. 109

    Puddybud Michael Kennedy spews:

    I don’t live on ASSes like some of your librully inbred morons. So you can post for a while like inbred shitheads getting all giddy over each other. I am so amazed that so many of you survived the mass donkoinfanticide that has been the law of the land for the last 33 years. You should thank your lucky stars you are here, instead of some formaldehyde jar, to be Internet Edumicated on correct Google search techniques!

  87. 110

    JDB spews:

    Puddy Rush Limbaugh:

    You were the one that suggested I search for “rising crime rate.” Which I did. I note that you don’t link to the search you did. Sure, if I did a search for “illegal alien crime” I’m going to get a bunch of right wing sights talking about crimes committed by illegal aliens, but what does that have to do with a rising crime rate?

    And let’s look at what you did link. A online journal of a right wing think tank (city journal and the Manhattan Institute), which has nothing to do with rising crime rates and is from 2004. An anti-immigrant site that has nothing to do with rising crime rates, and 2005 article from some whacked out conspiracy site that thinks 9/11 was a conspiracy by the government (didn’t know you thought Bush was responsible for that Pud for brains), that has nothing to do with rising crime rates again.

    Boy oh boy, do you even read what you link to? Or are you trying to make a fool of yourself on purpose?

    Now, you might find this interesting, a google search for “Puddybuddy and “Total working brain cells”

    http://www.google.com/search?s.....n+cells%22

    Not at all surprisingly, none were found.

  88. 111

    das spews:

    116.

    Except we don’t do that. That’s what you want us to be doing or you read journalists who twist their narratives into America hating shapes, as you describe.

    Be more specific – how does America create terrorists? (foot taps, looks at ceiling, folds arms across chest, looks at watch; fianlly 2 hours go by…)

    I’m tired of waiting for an answer so let me give it a try:

    Leftoid progressives who hate America give demented young men, domestic and foreign, the thumbs up that it is OK to blast away at America: we’re an evil imperial power, after all. And boy do we need to be brought down to size chunk by chunk. So it is not anything intrinsic to America but rather it is in your leftoid American hating bile that terrorist spermatazoa swims.

  89. 112

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    63.

    You’re just a little righty noise maching, aren’t you D’Ass?

    Cheering on the naked emperor to create more, and more terrorist.

    Bye, bye, Winston Smith.

  90. 113

    rhp6033 spews:

    Quiz: Name the author of the following quote:

    “What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone? How else can we put ourselves in harmonious relation with the great verities and consolations of the infinite and the eternal? And I avow my faith that we are marching towards better days. Humanity will not be cast down. We are going on swinging bravely forward along the grand high road and already behind the distant mountains is the promise of the sun.”

  91. 114

    das spews:

    Again, the enemies that the left picks are such softballs: Oooo how brave and daring to burn the American flag…..snore…such virlie protest…

    the left takes up flag burning and Rush Limbaugh and other such oppressive symbols while the right faces off with the coldest blooded jihad murderers in the world today…

    How about taking on a real stand for freedom and publish the Danish cartoons…

  92. 115

    ManofTruth spews:

    Don`t burn the flag, wash the flag when you think America needs to change course. Wash those idiots right out of office.

  93. 116

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    You know, this issue has been so overblown that I’m about ready to urge my reps to vote for it. It is so far down on the importance scale that it should be allowed to take a shot at the 75% state legislature requirement.

    Let’s see if burning a flag can rise to the impartace of shouting fire in a theater.

  94. 118

    proud leftist spews:

    Christmasghost, you old constitutional scholar you,
    The Supreme Court long ago determined that the First Amendment’s protection of speech includes the protection of expression. Even Injustice Scalia concurs with that view. Hence, such non-speech expressions as refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance or wearing a coat saying “Fuck the Draft” are protected. No respected contemporary constitutional scholar takes the position that the First Amendment applies only to the spoken word. By the way, is it your position that only individuals whose families have been here since the Revolutionary War get to determine what is or isn’t protected speech? You would vandalize the freedoms that your ancestors fought for.

  95. 119

    Commander Ogg spews:

    And your Military record Mr. Ghost?

    It is not a lefty move to get attention, unless you consider those Neo Nazi’s that I watched burn an American flag on A&E TV yesterday (Skinheads USA: Soldiers of the Race War: America Undercover®) as leftist.

    While my secret wish is to drop the racist bastards into an active volcano, as long as they do not harm any one, they have the right to their beliefs, no matter how repulsive I find them.

    The 1st Amendment list five rights, not one; if you bothered to read the thing you would know that. Flag burning is protected speech. That said, if I saw it, I would try and physically stop the person from doing it. Hypocritical perhaps, but that is the way it moves.

    Commander Ogg
    SSG, USA
    Retired

  96. 120

    das spews:

    Ogg you forgot to mention that Bush served in the Texas National Guard.

    One cue:
    Commence trashing of the National Guard by all you lovely leftoid supporters of the troops…

  97. 121

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    Round up the boy scouts. That is the only group I have ever seen burn a flag.

    I helped too.

    Of course back in the 60’s and 70’s no one had thought up all the cutting up the strips and stars and burning them separately yet, so they were retired one at a time and burned whole. The 82nd Airborne color guard was on hand and no one objected to the ceremony.

    Turning the flag into a surrogate religious idol for jingoist chickenhawks seems a bit suspicious to me. The Veterans of the VFW and other groups have a right to urge respect for the flag and even the new flag retirement ceremony is ok by me if you like ceremony for it’s own sake, but amending the constitution to limit freedoms and liberty seems to be a peculiarly authoritarian Republican tactic.

    Even the current wingnut version of the court will slap anyone silly who passes a mere law restricting the first amendment. It is only those who claim “national security” to cover up the shredding of the constitution and the bill of rights who should be able to get away with something that anti american.

    The states will never ratify it and the wingnuts will be deep into trying to stay out of prison by the time it comes up for ratification anyway.

  98. 122

    christmasghost spews:

    it’s mrs. ghost thank you……
    my husband fought in vietnam…does that count? girls weren’t really allowed to fight then…..and i was too young.
    as my dad said recently “we should have kicked their commie asses out of this country along time ago” referring to the whiney useless left. remember the “chicago seven “? weather underground? black panthers? SLA?
    yup…you guys are sooooooo productive.
    the neo nazi’s that you refer to have alot more in common with the islamo-facists than anyone else. and i find it terribly amusing that you twits think that they are in line with the GOP. wrong-o!
    so yes…i do consider them lefties.

  99. 123

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    You’re probably right about it never getting enacted, Ken.

    The latest Gallup poll on the subject shows that an amendment is much less popular now (45% in favor) than in 1999 (63% in favor).

    Maybe people are waking up to the politics of this.

  100. 124

    proud leftist spews:

    Ghost
    Within our tripartite form of government, one of the branches must be the final arbiter of what the constitution means. In 1804, Marbury v. Madison established that the judicial branch would be the final arbiter. We have lived with that wise decision ever since. The experiences of other nations demonstrate that permitting either the executive branch or the legislative branch to be the final arbiter produces fleeting interpretations of constitutional meaning that eventually reduce a constitution to a piece of paper. We have to accept the Supreme Court as the final word, even if, as in the Bush v. Gore decision, we dislike the consequences. People like you, who have not a clue what the Constitution compels, are nothing but fools when they speak of some entity other than the Court as having the final authority to interpret its provisions. Who else or what else should have such authority? I am confident you have no reasoned answer to that question.

    “Fragile as reason is, and limited as law is as the institutionalized medium of reason, that’s all we have between us and the tyranny of mere will and the cruelty of unbridled, undisciplined feelings.”

    -Felix Frankfurter (1882-1965)

  101. 125

    JDB spews:

    Das:

    You need to practice your reading skills, Ogg said he was talking about combat vets. Not someone that spent half his time AWOL from the National Guard.

    Good news, Bush’s six hours in the Green Zone will count toward his National Guard Service.

  102. 126

    christmasghost spews:

    PL…… good try. but that was in 1804, right? when was the constitution enacted?????? so it was just the court’s opinion on the court’s power. the three branches of government are supposed [according to my founding fathers] to be equal in power so as to prevent the idiocy that is now the norm.
    “the final arbitor of what the constituion means”. bill clinton would be so proud of you…. another “it all depends on what the meaning of “is ” is….right?
    anyone that can read can interpret the constitution for themselves. it’s a beautifully simple and clear document.
    you are the fool my dear. why don’t you tell me what george washington would have thought of your opinion that the courts get to “decide” what the constitution means……..

  103. 127

    Goldy spews:

    Das… um… huh?

    It’s the right that’s wasting all this time and effort combatting flag burning… something that hardly ever happens in the US. This what the R’s are choosing to fight, to distract from their so-called war on terror.

    (And I believe I did publish some of the Danish cartoons. My big complaint was that I didn’t think they were funny.)

  104. 128

    Smedley Butler, Brig. General, USMC, ret. spews:

    I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

  105. 129

    Commander Ogg spews:

    No Ms. Ghost, I do not think that they (Nazi skin heads) are in line with the GOP, I know they are:

    June 24, 2006, 9:05PM
    Don’t need Voting Rights Act? Who are they kidding?
    By CLAY ROBISON
    Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle
    U.S. Rep. John Carter of Round Rock has either been marooned on Mars most of his life or is frighteningly oblivious to reality…

    The Neo Nazi Skinheads are low level street thugs, cannon fodder for the Republicans desire to see a White, Right Country that embraces the good old days of racial purity. The nations oldest terrorist group, the KKK, was around for a heck of a lot longer the any of those radical leftist groups you mention, and they have not gone away. And after the ERA was passed in the 60’s, most of the old line dixicrats switched party’s

    Like flag burning and gay bashing, just a distraction for the rubes.

  106. 130

    ArtFart spews:

    Our flag is far more desecrated by Republican hypocrites wrapping themselves in it than it is by anyone burning it.

  107. 131

    JDB spews:

    Dumb Ass at 131:

    Leftoid progressives who hate America give demented young men, domestic and foreign, the thumbs up that it is OK to blast away at America

    Can you name one? The only person I remember giving demented young men, domestic and foreign, the thumbs up that it is OK ot blast away at America was the idiot that said “Bring it on!”

    President Bush said Wednesday that American troops under fire in Iraq aren’t about to pull out, and he challenged those tempted to attack U.S. forces, “Bring them on.”

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....oops_x.htm

    Boy, that sounds as stupid as you!