I’m kinda with Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn in his opposition to the deep bore tunnel, though not exactly for all the same reasons. (I mean, we pick the most expensive Viaduct replacement alternative possible, but we can’t even scrounge up the loose change to replace the South Park Bridge? What’s up with that?)
Still, I think Gov. Chris Gregoire came awfully close to disarming the mayor’s most compelling rhetorical argument against the current proposal: the bizarrely punitive provision in which Seattle taxpayers are responsible for picking up the tab for any cost overruns.
Think about it. Regardless of how low the initial bids are coming, or how much of a cushion they’ve supposedly built into their estimates, we all know that mega-projects sometimes often more times than not come in over budget. That’s a fact. Yet the state DOT, which is tasked with managing this part of the project, bears none of the costs for the risks it takes on.
No doubt it made some legislators feel awfully damn good to slip in this provision, but it is simply untenable, and just cannot stand.
Gov. Gregoire now says that the provision’s language merely represents “legislative intent,” and would not be enforceable without further legislative action. “When the state budget is being drawn by the state, the state is responsible for the projects,” the Governor said yesterday, dismissing McGinn’s objections. In fact, she even challenged McGinn to go to Olympia and get the language changed:
“If you want it changed in the law, you need to take it to the Legislature in January. You get it done, you bring it to my desk, I’ll sign it.”
Great. So Gov. Gregoire is on the record in favor of striking the cost overrun provision. But instead of just shoving it in McGinn’s face — who, to be honest, has not thus far proven particular adept at persuading legislators — how about if the Governor offers to take the lead and propose this fix to the legislature herself? And while we’re at it, how about if House Speaker Frank Chopp, Senate Majority Leader Lisa Brown and respective transportation chairs Rep. Judy Clibborn and Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen collectively swallow their pride, and promise to work with the Governor and the Mayor to get this done?
There are other good policy arguments for opposing the tunnel, but no other good rhetorical ones, so instead of just attempting to embarrass the Mayor in a public forum and hope he slinks away, it is time for the Governor and other Olympia leaders to put this to rest by promising to remove this last remaining political stumbling block.
If Mayor McGinn is smart, he’ll score some points by claiming credit for forcing a major concession. And as much as that might pain Gov. Gregoire to pay that sort of political price, well… sometimes mega-projects like this simply cost more than you expect.
The cost overrun provision is perfectly acceptable – and is a direct response to Seattle picking the most expensive option – A point which Goldy conveniently omits from his little story(why am I not surprised at that)
You want a gold-plating solution to the viaduct? Fine, then YOU pick up the tab for the eventual cost overruns. Seems fair to me – and to the rest of the state.
FunFacts is absolutely correct.
Goldy and the far left loons follow the ObaMao “Bait-and-Switch” technique of agreeing to one thing to get the Wonderland Tunnel approved…then whining because you have to follow-thru and bear the cost over-runs.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
Seattle did pick the most expensive option like the fools they are.
One thing Lunatic Leftists are consistent on is their word means absolutely NOTHING!
MadeUpFacts @1,
Seattle most definitely did not pick the tunnel option. This is a state project. The governor and the legislature picked it after Seattle seemed to be settling into a political consensus around the least expensive option, the surface/transit alternative.
@3
Wrong again Goldy…but a noble effort at spinning . Maybe you need to study up again on the history of the Viaduct replacement project.
Seattle proposed the accepting the cost overruns for building a tunnel.
Seattle proposed the tunnel over the state objections.
Mayor McGinn knew about the overrun legislation before his mayoral campaign and before his announcement to not stand in the way of the tunnel. A Legislative session and special session passed by without a peep from the Mayor.
Clearly he is using this issue to attempt to stop the tunnel. He even has said as much.
“so instead of just attempting to embarrass the Mayor in a public forum”
i dunno thats the mayors strategy on the tunnel. whats wrong with giving him a taste of his own medicine
@3
Mayor Nickels, King County Executive Ron Sims and the Seattle City Council all voted for the tunnel. They were the elected representatives for the City of Seattle.
The surface/transit option would not have been the option selected. While it might have served the cities’ needs it certainly wouldn’t have served the state’s needs.
The only reason the tunnel became the option was because of the threats the former mayor made against the rebuilt viaduct.
One other consideration-
A tunnel would be a Godsend for Seattle. Opening up over a thousand acres of prime view waterfront, with the property taxes this would raise, would pay Seattles cost overruns within a decade, at most. Fiscally, Seattle would do very well by a tunnel over the long term.
But it won’t be built. Once they start digging some ‘First peoples’ femur will be found. A tribe will claim this was a forgotten burial site of immense cultural value (though not so important anyone remembered it before) and the project will grind to a very expensive halt.
I agree that the over-run issue should be a shared responsibility. It’s a state highway, after all, and Seattle doesn’t have that much control over the cost.
But I also see Gregoire’s side. The issue has been hanging around for at least a decade now, at least since the Nisqually quake. The viaduct is a ticking time bomb, nobody knows how much more time it has before it collapses. The tunnell option keeps the viaduct handling traffic during tunnel construction, something the other options wouldn’t do as well. If another earthquake hits and the Viaduct pancakes, like those in Oakland and Kyoto, it’s the State which will bear the liablity from all those families who will point out that the State knew the danger for more than a decade and still did nothing. Finally, the Gov is quite right about the expense side – now is the time to strike while federal funding is available and before costs go up. By January the cost situation might be completely higher.
Or we could just withdraw the funding and spend it in areas that are ready to build since Seattle is incapable of getting it’s act together.
I’m loving watching Goldy get smacked-down and schooled on his own blog.
You guys are all revisionist. Public opinion and elected officials were coalescing around the surface/transit option. Mayor Nickels had said he would support the surface/transit option over a rebuild. But it was the governor and the legislature who were obstinately opposed, insisting that we couldn’t reduce thru capacity under any circumstances.
The result was a “compromise”… the deep bore tunnel that supposedly would cost less than the cut and cover proposal, would maintain thru capacity, and would not cut off the waterfront for another couple generations. But had the governor and the legislature agreed to surface/transit — the least expensive option — that is what we would be getting.
That said, all I’m suggesting is, that since the governor already thinks the overrun provision is unenforceable, why not just take the lead in removing it, thus eliminating McGinn’s only rhetorical cudgel? That would be smart politics.
Buckeye @6,
I don’t dispute your characterization of the mayor’s intentions, so no, there’s nothing particularly wrong with giving him a taste of his own medicine. He’s a big boy, and I’m sure he can take it.
But… if the governor’s goal is to build this tunnel, there’s nothing to gain by giving the mayor a taste of his own medicine. The folks in Olympia should just swallow their pride and remove a provision the governor already admits is unenforceable. Then we can all move on.
Remind me of something Goldy, since I may have forgotten – what about the seawall? IIRC, the tunnel option also either repairs or replaces the seawall. Did the surface+transit option also fix up the seawall, or does it leave that as a separate project?
@12
Essentially the state should agree to everything the City of Seattle demanded and pay for it too.
@8 “though not so important anyone remembered it before”
Sigh! It figures. Hate Native Americans much?
@12
It is you who is the convenient revisionist.
Steve, Steve, Steve,
Yes Steve, my name is lostinaseaofblue, and I am a rascist. Or not. But pissing away 100 million public dollars on the last adventure in unimportant Indian artifacts kind of irritates me.
Here’s a test. If something is of stellar importance, pivotal to the culture of a tribal or national group, wouldn’t you think they’d know about it before someone else found it?
Joe @14,
The only option in which seawall replacement was an integral part of the Viaduct replacement was the cut and cover tunnel alternative. In the current deep bore tunnel project, the City of Seattle is responsible for the sea wall replacement, and responsible for any cost overruns there incurred. Nobody’s objecting to that.
“wouldn’t you think they’d know about it”
Oh, a test? How about we round up teabaggers after a little genocide action, put you all on reservations, maybe give you some smallpox infected blankets to keep you warm, and then after a few generations we’ll see if your descendants can remember where their ancestor’s artifacts and bones are buried?
Hate Native Americans much, Lost?
“Yes Steve, my name is lostinaseaofblue, and I am a rascist.”
“unimportant Indian artifacts”
Well, at least you got one right, Lost.
@lostinaseaofignorance, I wouldn’t call you a rascist, because that would mean that, like you, I can’t spell. I would call you a racist, though, for your ignorant comment about ‘First Peoples’ and burials. You don’t seem to know much about geology or the history of Seattle. Where the tunnel starts on the South end is well into the area that used to be a mudflat, not likely to have ever been used as a burial ground. Where it ends on the North end is where Denny Hill used to be. Any disturbing of Native American sites would have been disturbed over 100 years ago.
So take your racist teabagger whining about people you will never understand and shove it up your ass.
“You guys are all revisionist. Public opinion and elected officials were coalescing around the surface/transit option.”
This is total BS. Case in point: it wasn’t on the ballot. Second, assuming that voting “no/no” meant some undefined third option, is still got less votes then either the tunnel or the rebuilt visduct. The math doesn’t lie. McGinn is a one trick pony, who only has this one issue to hang his hat on, because he has little else.
All this is rooted in a cult called Urbanism.
Goldy @ 12 says:
The Big Lie won’t save you, Goldy. There was NO groundswell for the “surface option” then, and there isn’t one today, You can repeat it 100 times and it won’t be any more true.
FunFacts @ 1 speaks for me. Either Seattle gets a new rebuilt Viaduct, with all cost overruns paid for by rest of the state, or it gets a gold-plated tunnel and a waterfront “beautification project” for which SEATTLE pays all cost overruns.
Maybe it’s the wet dream of Seattle yuppies, the “design community,” and the car-hating “new urbanist” cult that Seattle’s traffic resembles downtown Calcutta’s, but it sure as hell isn’t mine.
Yes, another lie about American history as taught by liberal teachers/professors.
Genocide necessarily requires intent. No intent was behind the primary cause of Native American mortality. Most died of infectious disease spread accidentally. For those killed in hostilities; warfare is ugly and brutal and often unnecessary. It is rarely genocide.
Which brings me to smallpox blankets. No credible evidence has ever supported the assertion that disease carrying blankets were deliberately given to Indian tribes.
As for reservations and dual citizenship both were mistakes. A conquered people historically must make the best of a situation. Pretending that they weren’t in fact conquered and may retain their culture etc is disengenuous and poor policy. It leads to the kind of silliness we have now. If Indians wish to be citizens of their tribe on a reservation they should carry a passport when leaving the reservation and expect no US federal or State money to be spent on the reservation. No defense, no roads, no schools. Otherwise they are American citizens with all the rights and duties of citizens.
I don’t hate black people. I don’t hate Indians. I do expect equal treatment under the law for all, not favored status based on centuries old points of contention.
@19 “Nobody’s objecting to that.”
Um, I am. It’s why I support the cut and cover. If this bore tunnel project fails to go forward then maybe they’ll have the chance to do it right and address the shouldn’t-be-postponed seawall project by going with the the cut and cover option.
Re 22
I neither know nor care about tribal history in Seattle.
I was attempting irony, lost on most too serious liberals.
Thanks SO MUCH for the spelling lesson, you condescending ass.
Hey ivan. I need to buy you a beer sometime.
Horseshit, Lost.
“Pretending that they weren’t in fact conquered and may retain their culture etc is disengenuous and poor policy.”
I like how the conquerors get to retain ties to their cultural identity. heh- Speaking of the conquered, the Japanese Bon Odori festival held on the public streets of Seattle in July must really chap your ass.
Hate Native Americans much? Yes. It’s quite obvious that you do.
@27 “I neither know nor care about tribal history in Seattle.”
Of course. You hate Native Americans. It’s not like I thought you’d show any respect.
@27 “I was attempting irony”
heh- Wingnut humor. Yeah, I’ll admit that the laughs teabaggers get from pulling the wings off a fly or blowing up a frog somehow escapes me. But irony? I really don’t think we’ve seen that out of you yet. Perhaps you should try again and maybe put an asterik or something in there where you think you’re being ironic.
Re 29
Yes. I hate other cultures. It’s why I travel a month or more a year all over Europe and Asia. It’s why my bookshelves have books in 3 languages. It’s why I rarely dated an American girl, and married a Japanese lady. It’s why I own a house in Italy, because I hated their culture so much.
Yes, I hate any culture not involving banjos and overalls and my favorite TV program was the Dukes of Hazard.
Try, really hard if necessary, to separate policy issues from personal ones. I know you can do it with a few years of practice and effort.
For a liberal this is the tough one, but try. Pretending reality is other than what it is never works. Pretending giving more power to government means anything other than a more corrupt and inefficient government doesn’t work. Pretending history is something other than what it is doesn’t work. Pretending ideals replace hard reality doesn’t work. And pretending that Native American tribes were not the losers in the fight for America won’t work. Things sometimes are just what they are, no matter what we want them to be.
Well Lost, if you married a Japanese lady then it is metaphysically impossible for you to be a know nothing bigot berating Native Americans.
Glad you cleared that up.
Well, my family is going to a movie and pizza, so I’ll leave you folks to it. Have fun.
Mike and Steve,
Best of luck with the personal problems causing your irritability. Whatever it is, it’ll pass.
[Deleted — see HA Comment Policy]
ivan @24,
We can agree to disagree as to whether there was or was not a groundswell of support for the surface/transit option, but the advisory vote clearly showed that there was no groundswell of support for the tunnel. Ron Sims had embraced the notion of a surface/transit option, and Nickels had publicly stated he would support surface/transit over a rebuild. So it’s hard to deny that if the Governor and Legislature had accepted surface/transit, Sims and Nickels wouldn’t have happily signed on.
The idea that Seattle demanded a tunnel is just laughable. The cut and cover proposal was dead, and then Discovery comes up with their Big Bore proposal, and Olympia embraces it. The state could have gotten off with the cheapest of the three proposals, but they chose not to.
“I rarely dated an American girl”
heh- I think we’re getting somewhere, Lost. We’re making some progress. Tell us more about how you not only hate America enough to cut and run for some Italian food, but how you also hate American women too! What’s the problem? Do you find American women to be, um, somewhat lacking in subservience and submissiveness?
“Best of luck with the personal problems causing your irritability”
Geez, Mike, it looks like the faux-libertarian wingnut who rather irritativly hates America, Native Americans and American women (heh- Daisey Duke in particular!) wishes us luck with our personal problems. Sigh! Will wingnut projection ever end??
@10 And it’s the Gig Harbor councilmen FTW!
Goldy @ 36:
You have never, at any time, heard me contend that there was a groundswell of support for the tunnel.
But the Legislature was NEVER, EVER going to accept the “surface option” no matter what Sims or Nickels thought. The tunnel, therefore, was, and is, a compromise position that very few people like.
*I* don’t like it. I want the Viaduct rebuilt. In the world of Ivan, the Legislature would ram a rebuild right up Seattle’s ass. But it appears that’s not happening. You apparently want the idiotic, moronic “surface option,” and that’s not happening either.
So if neither of those are happening, then what is? Looks like the tunnel, and looks like Seattle pays. Otherwise, you get a rebuild.
You want the Viaduct gone? Pay and STFU. I’m damned if I will. The rest of the state’s with me, and not with you, and we have more votes.
@19:
Thanks for clarifying that, Goldy.
ivan @40,
But the point is, Seattle never demanded a tunnel, never begged for it, gold plated or otherwise. Yeah, we didn’t want a rebuild shoved down our waterfront, but the deep bore tunnel proposal came out of Olympia, not Seattle.
Furthermore, the very notion that you can give responsibility for building a project to one party, but stick another party with the cost overruns, is a recipe for unaccountability. It’s ridiculous.
Puddy glad Puddy lives up north. Personally there should never be cost overruns on any project. To Puddy, it’s a case of low balling the job, win the bid and oh well you pay for it. So if the liberal peeps Seattleites voted in accepted the overruns, so be it.
I find it very hard to believe WSDOT can enter into a contract with a private party and not be on the hook for potential problems. Let’s postulate a worst case scenario, Brightwater bore machine stuck. So you have two parties who signed the contract, the State and the Contractor. The Contractor has a legally enforcable expectation to be paid by the other party to the contract- not Seattle. There is no third party contractual relationship.
How about the mayor go do his ow fucking leg work?
Goldy, you talk about swallowing pride, well, how about the mayor go do the work, or ever provide a solution to how the cost overrun could be paid?
The fact of the matter is that the Governir is right, he hates the tunnel, and needs something to hang his hat on.
I suggest the mayor go fuck himself.
It is tunnel, or Choppaduct, and either way the legislature will make sure that if McSandbag somehow stops the tunnel that the same cost overrun provision would be in that legislation.
That is something the dreamers gloss over, you think the legislature hates Seattle, what do you think they think of McSandbag?
What kind of shitty deal would they through on that dunderhead?
The Nisqually quake happened on February 28, 2001. We’re still arguing about how to fix 2 mile long road that was damaged in 2001? Does this seem completely insane to anyone else?
At this point fix the fucking the the quickest and cheapest way you can and get on with life.
“Puddy glad Puddy lives up north.”
heh- Where all the white folk live. Figures. Puddy, Puddy, Puddy. And he talks about 32nd and Othello like he’s actually been there. heh- Um, sure. Uh-huh.
Actually Steve Steve Steve, where Puddy lives there are Filipinos, Italians, Indians, Blacks, Jews, Latinos in the neighborhood. There you go again with your “It’s a Psych 101” thing again. Why is your projection argument your least common denominator Steve Steve Steve?
Butt let’s get to
Since Myrtle Pl becomes Othello around the Safeway store and Union Gospel Mission (Puddy been there) where is Steve Steve Steve taking about? Maybe Steve Steve Steve is thinking of the New Holly Learning Center and Library since Paul McCartney brought up his stupid library comment Wednesday? Butt y’all see that’s Myrtle Pl., so another EPIC FAIL argument from Steve Steve Steve!
Probably unknown to you, there are some great food markets on MLK near Othello. Ask Goldy, as Puddy gave him directions to a West Indian fish market two years ago. Or you can ask the clueless arschloch goatsee. Did you grow a pair yet and ask the clueless arschloch goatsee the other question from earlier this week Steve Steve Steve?
I have the impression that the deep-bore tunnel and the cost provision was the BIAW sticking it to Seattle for daring to not funnel more money to the BIAW.
Who needs to pay people off when you already own the state legislature?
Croak!
@49 Why is your projection argument your least common denominator Steve Steve Steve?
Because 3-Steve took psych 101 like gazillions of other freshman in college and wants to demonstrate, well, that he took psych 101 like gazillions of other freshman in college.
Like gazillions of other freshman in college, of course, it doesn’t mean that he learned anything of practical value, including, for example, how to communicate effectively on HA in later life.
ivan–
I can see Goldy sweating as he tries to spin this that Seattle was a “victim” of the tunnel.
Apparently his handpicked elected officials don’t speak for him.
Apparently when they make promises, they don’t matter.
Keep up the bad work Goldy.
I personally support the Retro-fitting of the Viaduct….because we cannot afford the alternatives. It was supposed to fall down over 5 years ago…and it’s amazingly still standing.
A deal is a deal Goldy.
Seattle’s legally elected representatives made a deal to move this forward. Now you must live with the consequences.
Here’s an idea Goldy–
Pray it comes in on or under Budget.
And BTW, why are you so worried now that it won’t come in on or under budget?
I thought you had total confidence in the Governor and her WSDOT?
What caused you to shift gears to all this angst and hand-wringing??
“there are Filipinos, Italians, Indians, Blacks, Jews, Latinos in the neighborhood”
Magandang umaga, Puddy. heh- As an honorary Filipino, no shit, some friends attemped to teach me Tagalog many years ago. I don’t recall much, just a pick-up line or two that have come in handy over the years. Funny, I still like to give my Filipino friends grief all these years later for having decades ago turned my beloved old Empire Lanes bowling alley on what was then Empire Way into the Filipino Community Center. You know where that is. On the east side of MLK, on Juneau, between Orcas and Graham. You’d think that they’d at least have had the sense to save a couple of lanes. Anyways, what’s up? Me? I spent a day down at Tokeland this week, helping the tribe out down there. They didn’t understand what was what with certain aspects of the casino. I gave my time freely, of course. Eh, I just wanted to help those poor injuns out. heh- Kidding aside, I actually don’t know those people very well yet. If I’m hanging with Native Americans, it’s usually with the Skokomish. They’ve got a great little church on the reservation! You really ought to check out their services one of these days. Maybe make it part of a day trip to the Canal or something. I could join you and introduce you to some of my Native American friends.
Anyways, Puddy, I’d ask WTF are you babbling about @49, but it’s just not all that unusual for you to go all incoherent on me these days. Say, is that a meds issue or something? I know I’d feel bad for ridiculing you over a meds thing.
@51 Well, as my degrees go, I admit that the one in Psychology has proven rather useless. A Psych 101 class would have surely sufficed for interpreting wingnut babblespeak. Lordy, what I’d give for a Psych 401 troll! Wouldn’t that be something? How about you? Do you think you have what it takes?
Good morning Steve,
Feeling better today?
My non-psych recommendation? Go outside and enjoy the sun. I’m off to take the dogs hiking myself, which works better than any number of hours on any shrinks couch.
Steve,
One other quick thing-
My wife read that thing about “Do you find American women to be, um, somewhat lacking in subservience and submissiveness?” She’s still laughing. Thanks for the humor.
“Thanks for the humor.”
You’re welcome, Lost.
@36
Bullshit Goldy. Nickels was adamant about putting the viaduct underground.
Your revisionist crap is a joke.
Either you don’t know that the fuck you are talking about, or you are flat out trying to change history.
So which is it?
I hope Seattle fucking chokes on the cost overruns .
You elected these bozos, now you can reap it.
IIRC, Nickels wanted a cut-and-cover tunnel, not the more expensive deep bore tunnel. Public consensus was a surface solution. & FF, what’s your problem with Seattle?
Raven @ 60:
I am a fan of yours, but on this one you are FOS, and I do not mean Friends of Seattle. There was no “public consensus” for a “surface option.” The “public” is not the comment threads of the Stranger or Publicola, where car-hating hipsters and the Green Taliban dominate the discourse.
Repeating the Big Lie does not make it any more true. The voters rejected the cut-and-cover tunnel. They rejected a rebuilt Viaduct, but by a smaller margin. The “surface option” has never been on the ballot, and its backers are too chickenshit to want it there, because it would lose by the largest margin of all.
The larger question is: Why were these things on the ballot at all? And why were these Seattle-only votes. Get it straight. Highway 99 is not the property of the city of Seattle. It is a STATE FUCKING HIGHWAY. It happens to run through Seattle, and through a hell of a lot of other municipalities. One hell of a lot of people depend on Highway 99 who are not Seattle residents, and their tax dollars damn sure support that highway.
The state built it. The state maintains it. The Legislature controls the purse strings, and Seattle has 8-9 percent of the state’s population and 6 of 49 Legislative Districts.
Even Michael @ 47 has had enough:
Retrofit, bitches!
Goldy ran away from this thread like it had the clap or something.
So much for our knowledgeable and “connected” leader of HA. What a fucking joke – he’ either a clueless nob or an outright liar.
“The state built it. The state maintains it. The Legislature controls the purse strings…”
And our city council signed up to pay for all the overruns.