Is Dunn done?

While I was busy getting candidate training at Camp Wellstone, at least one prominent local Republican was getting taught a lesson of his own. King County Republicans picked their official candidates today at a county convention… I haven’t seen any confirmation yet, but I hear there was at least one huge upset: in the KC Council’s 9th District race, anointed mamma’s boy Raymond Shaw Reagan Dunn apparently lost the nomination to Councilman Steve “The Executioner” Hammond, a favorite of Christian conservatives.

If true, this would be a stunning defeat for one of the KC GOP’s fastest rising stars. Shaw Dunn is the son of former Congresswoman Eleanor Prentiss Shaw Jennifer Dunn, and was clearly being groomed for power. In deference to his mother, the party leadership had stacked the deck in Shaw’s Dunn’s favor, and he came out of the May 17 caucuses with a substantial lead over Hammond. But in an unexpected show of strength by Christian conservatives, Hammond apparently turned out more of his delegates… enough to garner a narrow, 20 vote victory.

If I were GOPolitburo Chair Chris Vance, I’d be worried. This not only represents a challenge to party unity, but in a post I-872 environment, where party officials are determined to choose candidates at convention, this rebellion indicates the willingness and ability of a well organized religious right wing to steer the party towards surefire losers in the Ellen Craswell mold.

One can only hope.

From the Seattle Times:

In the 9th District, 436 voting delegates were seated


  1. 1

    David spews:

    Whether or not they hand-pick a candidate (how did the R’s manage to #$%& that up?), he or she has to finish the race in the top two. This will be an interesting test of the new primary.

  2. 4

    Richard Pope spews:

    Hmm — from Seattle Times article of 06/12/2005:

    “In the weeks before the convention, both Hammond and Dunn said they intended to abide by its outcome. But after yesterday’s vote, Dunn said he would file anyway, although he didn’t know whether he would do so as a Republican.”

    Maybe Reagan Dunn should try to run as a Democrat? It doesn’t look like any Democrat candidates have filed with the PDC to announce that they are running for King County Council District 9 as of the present time.

  3. 5

    Richard Pope spews:

    Looks like Dean Logan may have had a hand in knocking vocal critic Reagan Dunn out of the GOP nod for the King County Council race.

    The GOP ended up with more ballots counted than there were seated delegates for the 9th district contest. However, they accepted the results anyway and did not have a “revote”:


  4. 6

    Donnageddon spews:

    RP @ 5 “The GOP ended up with more ballots counted than there were seated delegates for the 9th district contest. However, they accepted the results anyway and did not have a “revote”:”

    Classic. Simply classic.

  5. 7

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    The final vote tally was 234 for Hammond to 209 for Dunn.

    That’s 443 votes. Yet there were 435 eligible voters.

    That’s 1.8% “fraud” in a tiny vote run by King County Republicans in single room at a single time.

    It makes the 99.99% accuracy of the general election (with 2.8 million votes count) look unbelievably accurate. And shows how incredibly incompetent republicans are at counting votes– can you imagine if they were in charge of King County elections? Nearly 2% “fraud”?

    Where’s the outcry? Where are the lawsuits?

  6. 8

    Scott spews:

    Let’s get Judge Bridges on the phone and let him know that the RULE OF LAW REPUBLICANS will be back in force to uncover this MASSIVE ELECTION FRAUD! How will the republicans EVER restore voter confidence??? HEHE!

  7. 9

    righton spews:

    Goldy; what if every post instead said, “marginal or radical candidate x is a favorites of Jews”, this shows the strenght of liberal Jews”….

    why the constant need to simulaneously tar the politics and the religion? Don’t the right wing whack jobs you claim Hammond and other are deserve to be challenged on their politics (call him anti poor or whatever) and not their religion.

  8. 10

    Scott spews:

    Identifying a politician, especially a republican, with the Christians tells you EVERY SINGLE THING you need to know about their politics.

    We don’t need a theocracy in Washington state. Those of you who crave that, can move to Alabama. Please, be my guest. And don’t let the door hit you in the ass when you leave our beautiful, progressive state.

  9. 11

    righton spews:

    We also don’t need an intolerant landscape for Christians or other religious folks (you guys hate orthodox jews too). You have less than zero chance of “theocracy” being enacted. Talk about red herring; bet ya’ll bring this up w/ no clue what you mean.

  10. 12

    headless lucy spews:

    You have the freedom to worship as you choose, but I guess for some that doesn’t quite cut it. Freedom to them means the power to force everyone else to believe as they do. That’s the gist of it Wipeoff.

  11. 13

    Marilyn spews:

    righton@9 and 11: “Don’t the right wing whack jobs…deserve to be challenged on their politics (…)and not their religion.”?

    Politics IS their religion. Marilyn

  12. 14


    The GOP were running a caucus, not an election. Which means that not only were the participants supposed to be carefully and individually validated for eligibility, the votes weren’t secret. It would be trivially easy to determine which caucus voters weren’t eligible to participate, and remove their ballots from the total.

    If this caucus operated like the 2004 Democratic presidential caucus, with an initial vote followed by opportunity to change, it isn’t necessarily the case that the margin would have exceeded the number of improper votes. Suppose those improper votes were all Hammond supports, and that they were extremely persuasive adherents. Perhaps they could have convinced some number of first-round ShawDunn supporters to switch to Hammond.

    Again, if those running the caucus did anything to maintain records of the event, it’s trivially easy to determine who the improper participants voted for, and it’s just about as easy to determine whether any of the valid participants switched between the rounds of voting.

  13. 15

    Marilyn spews:


    “we don’t need an intolerant landscape for Christians or other religious folk”.

    We don’t have an intolerant climate unless the intolerant Christians are around. It is their assaultive evangelizing
    that intrudes on the lives of others, it has become bullying, greedy, nasty, elitist, and unChristian. I don’t see the need to be tolerant of that behaviour in the name of religion. I also don’t think it represents Christianity well. Marilyn

  14. 16

    Larry Osterman spews:

    What’s wierd is that I’ve read the article online and I can’t seem to find the quotes listed above about the discrepency…

  15. 17

    scottd spews:

    Ellen Craswell did more to restore my faith in God than any other candidate I can remember. Her candidacy was a gift from above.

    Please God, more Craswells!

  16. 18

    I can reconcile...can you? spews:

    Ouch – more votes than voters, I agree that doesn’t look good. However the number of illegal votes is not 13 TIMES THE MARGIN OF VICTORY.

  17. 19

    righton spews:

    If it was the Dems, they’d find more ballots each day next week, under couches, under a stack of mail on the counter, next to the passenger seat, etc.

  18. 21

    Richard Pope spews:

    Larry Osterman @ 20

    I linked two different articles. Post # 2 covers the “nomination” voting and Reagan Dunn’s decision to run anyway in spite of losing. Post # 5 covers the ballots vs. voters discrepancy. Each posting has the link to the correct article being mentioned.

  19. 22

    headless lucy spews:

    The funny thing is the solemn promise of each candidate to abide by the outcome 0f the vote and their flip flop on that issue after the vote. Also, breaking the cardinal rule of dissing other Reps to other Reps. But it looks like Dubya opened that door with his smearing of war hero John McCain.

  20. 23

    righton spews:

    Headless lucidless can beat a path from a small local story to GWB faster than anybody. How do you do it?

  21. 24

    Mark spews:

    lucy @ 12 “You have the freedom to worship as you choose”

    That is not true. Religious freedoms are among the various rights and freedoms that require a delicate balancing act between the greatest amount of freedom vs. the right of a person not to have another’s religion imposed upon them or vs. not violating the law (e.g. ritual sacrifice).

    Why does the Liberal Left, whose minions shout “tolerance” from the rooftops, have such a problem with a mere “moment of silence” (to do with as you wish).

    True secularists have no problem with religion and wouldn’t try to “tar” others with religious labels. Or are you just trying to rip a page from McCarthy’s book and swap “Communist” for “Christian?”

    If there is anything one can take away from politics is that it is all a smokescreen — all PR and positioning. Vocal Republicans say they have the moral high ground, yet they’re as prone to bad deeds as the Democrats. Democrats are all about “tolerance” and being the party of the downtrodden, but few Democrats will listen to anything but the sound of their own voice. And the Dems have plenty of selfish, self-absorbed and/or power-hungry millionaires and special interests in their ranks that actually run the party — to their own benefit and the detriment of all others.

  22. 25

    JDB spews:

    I can reconcile…can you?:

    Note: We don’t know the number of illegal votes. We just know they didn’t reconcile. I would encourage Reagan Dunn to file suit spend millions of dollars, and conduct discovery for five months to determine the number of illegal votes. I would also advise him to talke with a few to figure out who they voted for.

  23. 26

    Richard Pope spews:

    Anyone have any comments about Reagan Dunn’s decision to file for King County Council anyway, even though he lost the official GOP “nomination”? Will he try to run as a Republican anyway? Will he file as an Independent? Or will he show up at the King County Democrats convention on June 28, and seek their “nomination”?

  24. 27

    David spews:

    righton fumes @ 9, “what if every post instead said, ‘marginal or radical candidate x is a favorites of Jews’, this shows the strenght of liberal Jews’….

    See, that’s one of the big differences between right-wing evangelical Christianity and “liberal” Judaism: Judaism is not a proselytizing faith; Jews aren’t working to spread their beliefs to others and put their religious imprint on government. Better example: if a hard-core atheist were running for office and had a strong, growing political bloc intent on removing all Christianity and religion generally from government buildings and programs, you’d (pardon the pun) raise holy hell about it.

    and @ 11, “We also don’t need an intolerant landscape for Christians or other religious folks”

    I am again dumbfounded that Christians think they are persecuted and living in an “intolerant landscape” when this is one of the most religious countries in the world, Christians are by far the majority (almost monopoly) religion, and far-right Christians have been gaining significant political power. Don’t talk about intolerance or persecution unless you’ve been there (try what it feels like to be a Muslim in this country post-9/11, or gay).

    “(you guys hate orthodox jews too).”

    It’s insulting to see you write something like that. I’ll wager that no one here hates orthodox Jews, or Christians for that matter (incidentally, how do you feel about atheists?). Having strong personal religious beliefs [or non-beliefs] is no problem at all, when you keep it private. But most of us don’t want religious fanatics of any stripe running our public government, and we’re willing to speak up about it. If you can’t get that distinction, piss off.

    “You have less than zero chance of ‘theocracy’ being enacted.”

    Only if we keep speaking up when candidates try to bring their evangelizing religion into government (or vice versa). But that’s hardly enough; can you really not see the growing evangelical and dominionist influence in our federal government? Have you totally missed the political influence of the religious right wing? We’re closer to de facto theocracy than I’m already comfortable with, nationally; but Washington state is a bit of a haven from that. And most of us would like to keep it that way.

  25. 28

    Priscilla spews:

    Reply to 24

    Human nature is the same everywhere — wow, what an observation. But that doesn’t mean the parties, policies, or politicians are the same. Republicans have proved, over and over, they can’t run a wet dream let alone a government. When Democrats are in power, the economy is better and taxes are fairer for the little guy. For the last 40 years, the racists have been in the GOP, while the Dems have pushed civil rights and minority advancement. R’s are for private school education for the privileged few; D’s are for quality public education for all. And, nowadays, D’s are for responsible fiscal policies while R’s borrow-and-spend like drunken teens who stole their dad’s credit cards.

    Don’t worry about the voting discrepancy; it’ll all be straightened out when Mr. Ignert shows up with his grocery cart full of black-covered looseleafs called THE BIG BINDER!

  26. 29

    Priscilla spews:

    Dunn should switch to Democrat. It’s not hard. All he has to do is stop lying and stop screwing the working man.

  27. 30

    Priscilla spews:

    David @ 7

    You didn’t know that conservatives (especially religious conservatives) have a persecution complex? Yep, the liberal lions have been lunching on ‘em for decades. Why, here in the Pink State, they have to pay $7.35 an hour.

  28. 34

    Richard Pope spews:

    It is unfortunate that Goldy used the term “Christian conservative” to describe Steve Hammond. I am NOT condemning Goldy’s choice of language. I am merely saying that it is UNFORTUNATE because it MISSES THE MOST INTERESTING ASPECT of the Hammond-Dunn nomination contest.

    Even though the King County GOP has gone to a lot of show and expense to hold an official “nominating” convention, the results don’t really mean anything. This is because the “wrong” person (Steve Hammond) was “nominated” for King County Council District 9. The loser of that contest, Reagan Dunn, plans to run for King County Council anyway, although he is not sure whether he will do so as a Republican.

    This lack of party loyalty, hypocrisy, and selling out the party for self-interest plagues the state GOP throughout — from state party chair Chris Vance on down. And it is strongly reflected in the two-bit blowhards that the state and county GOP choses to chair its official party conventions.

    Take KVI talk show host Kirby Wilbur, the person King County GOP leadership chose to chair the county convention. Kirby Wilbur has been selected to be the chair of GOP conventions in King County and statewide. He also chaired the King County conventions in 2000 and 2004, as well as the state GOP convention in 2000.

    Kirby Wilbur frequently endorses Democrats (or even Libertarians) over Republicans on his radio talk show (also listing these preferences on the KVI website at the time). Wilbur endorsed Democrats (or Libertarians) over Republicans for several statewide offices in 2000 and 2004 and also for King county-wide office in 2003.

    As an individual, it certainly would be okay for Wilbur to mostly back Republicans, but still endorse candidates of other parties 25% or 30% of the time.

    On the other hand, if someone is chosen to head a party convention, that person should be a party loyalist. The party leadership should chose a party loyalist. And the person selected should be loyal to the party — at least in the election cycle (i.e. the general election in November) to which the convention relates.

    If Wilbur didn’t like the GOP nominees in the relevant statewide and countywide races, then he should have simply stayed neutral and made no endorsement. To endorse the nominee of a different party — be it Democrat or Libertarian is disloyalty in the extreme, and should not be tolerated in an official county or state GOP party leader.

    (In the alternative, Kirby Wilbur should not have taken official leadership positions in the Republican party. If he had remained independent of leadership, then he could endorse whoever he wanted to, regardless of party, and not be a traitor and hypocrite.)

    Democrats certainly don’t tolerate such treason and disloyalty in their official party leaders. A Democrat who endorsed Republicans in partisan contests would never be chosen to chair a Democrat county or state convention.

    When Democrat party leaders (or even most Democrat elected officials) don’t particularly like the Democrat nominee, they simply keep their mouths shut and don’t offer much, if any, party help. They certainly don’t go out and publicly endorse the Republican, Green or Libertarian candidate.

    I think the selection of Kirby Wilbur to head the King County GOP convention is consistent with Reagan Dunn’s reaction to losing the official GOP “nomination”. It means that the GOP leadership is really saying that the official “nomination” process need not be taken seriously, if the “wrong” person is nominated. Just like the legal nomination through a partisan primary did not have to be respected in the past.

    It remains to be seen what party label Reagan Dunn will chose when he officially files in late July — be it Democrat, Republican, Independent, “Moderate”, or something else.

    But I will bet dollars to doughnuts, that regardless of Dunn’s choice of party label, that we can count on endorsements from the likes of John Carlson, Kirby Wilbur and Chris Vance urging people to vote for Dunn in the September primary and the November election, and not for the official GOP “nominee” Steve Hammond.

    I had seriously thought about going to the King County GOP convention, since I am a PCO and elected myself to go. But when I learned they were choosing Kirby Wilbur to head up the show, I decided that my person and my $10 had more honest and productive things to do yesterday.

  29. 35

    David spews:

    Mark @ 24: You ask why the government can’t mandate a moment of silence for prayer—or to do “whatever you wish.” Now, I’m not sure that’s a completely settled question (if there’s no overt religious purpose at all), but let me turn the question around:

    · You (or rather your kids, or other peoples’ kids) can pray silently any time it doesn’t interfere with class; why is that insufficient?

    · What educational purpose is there in taking time out from school day instruction?

    · When a teacher encourages silent prayers, or a child sees most of his or her classmates bowing their heads and reciting a religious prayer, don’t you think that puts some pressure on the child to participate or seem excluded?

    · Basically, why should we establish a fixed prayer time (oops, excuse me, I mean moment of silence) in public school?

    It’s not as blatant as some ideas for putting (Christian) religion in schools, but the bottom line is that the state has no business encouraging religion. If people want to pray silently, that is their right (all day long); the state doesn’t need to facilitate it.

  30. 38

    Righton spews:

    david @ 27;

    many religious folks consider “liberal jews” to be jewish in heritage only; they barely make it to temple 1x per year. orthodox would be a better comparison

    i just dont get why every perjorative you guys throw up is anti christian; why not just call us jerks or liars or something relevant to your beef. you mix in our religion, why?

  31. 39

    Priscilla spews:

    Comment on 33

    Gee what happened to the famous GOP party discipline? No wonder the big boys back east are keeping an eye on Vance & Co.

  32. 41

    David spews:

    Righton (ooh, capitalized now!) @ 37:
    No, no, the people you are describing are called “secular Jews.” I am both religious and “liberal,” and so are a lot of other Jews in this country. Orthodox has nothing to do with it. Don’t sneer at what you don’t understand.

    “you mix in our religion, why?”
    Re-read 27, dear. We object when you mix your religion in with politics.

  33. 43

    righton spews:

    when? I think prissy you’d rather we never practice or mention, except inside our houses w/ the doors locked. Sort of like persecuted chinese christians?

    Its a false and misleading statement to say we can believe what we want, but never practice or mention it. You all seem to want us only to believe in our heads, practice behind closed doors, and if we do good deeds keep our mouths shut. All well and good, but it denies our religion if we can never wear a cross or never talk about faith

    I think you want Christians treated like Christians in Saudi Arabia; no bibles, no public worship, nothing that would identify someone as a Christian.

  34. 44

    Marilyn spews:


    “Why does the Liberal Left…have such a problem with a moment of silence, to do with as you wish “.

    The Liberal Left doesn’t have a problem with that. A moment of silence is always possible, and it has never been disallowed. It is an individual thing. Why do conservative fundamentalists insist that prayer in public schools is not allowed? It has never been denied. Don’t people teach their children how to pray, how to gather in a moment’s peace and silence, unobtrusively and quietly for a moment with the Lord? I went to public schools. Students, individually, routinely took a quiet moment for a meal-time blessing – they weren’t interrupted, and no comments were made, one way or the other. but now, the trend is that everyone has to be praying “together”, in “fellowship”. There has been nothing more devisive than that concept of false fellowship. I don’t have to share my prayers unless I want to, and if I want to, I don’t need official sanction to do so. I don’t have to wait till a set time to pray – I can pray whenever and whereever I want, any place, any time, though I prefer to seek a quiet place. But I acn pray when I need to and it isn’t dependent on an official sanction of some sort. I don’t need to wait for an officially sactioned moment of silence either – I find that within myself. I was taught to do that as a child. I belive that children of other faiths are taught this also. But to insist that everyone verbalize the same prayer, out loud, holding hands, is obnoxious to many of us. During WW II, a popular hymn in concentration camps was “Die Gedanken sind Frei”. Your thoughts are Free. Prayer doesn’t require anyone’s permission. Marilyn

  35. 46

    Richard Pope spews:

    Pattycakes @ 41

    I don’t think it is grief issues at Sound Politics. Stefan just hasn’t started a new thread on the Hammond-Dunn thing. There is just an old thread started on Friday, which isn’t such an obvious place to post anymore.

    I think it will become quite active over there once a new thread is started on Hammond’s defeat of Dunn, and Dunn’s decision to run for King County Council anyway.

  36. 47


    Comment by Richard Pope— 6/12/05 @ 11:17 am

    It’s the black banner thing. Mary Lane/Marummy hasn’t told us to stop, so we’re carrying on.

    I have a hunch she asked Sound Politics to do that – I can feel the disturbance in the force from my fellow Jedi :-)!

  37. 48

    righton spews:

    you’re right, i don’t get why marilyn and you and others cannot write the words republican (when dissing) without using both Christian, conservative, fundamentalist all in the same line. Fundamentalists are about 1% of the Christian faith, except when lefties try to tar everyone from the Pope to mainstreamers with their broad brush. Basically i think it backs up to abortion and homosexuality; that is, if someone is cold on those, you all define them as fundamentalist. (i’ll bet anyone you’ve deemed fundy is indeed against those, while those you like are not, and that’s the big difference at the end of the day

  38. 49

    Marilyn spews:

    Righton@42: It is my observation that republicans make a point of identifying themselves as conservative and as Christian to falsly differentiate themselves from other Christians by implying that christianity and liberal, or Christianity and democrat is mutually exclusive. That is more than just insulting – it is false witness. I see that duplicity as mostly representative of conservative Christians who identify themselves as Republican. Conservative republican christians cast aspersions on liberals all the time. They deliberately distort pro-choice positions as pro-abortion, for instance. It is also my perception that conservative,republican “christians” see themselves as being assigned special jury duty by the Almighty. Whatever happened to “judge not, lest you be

    However well meant it may have been to Christianize politics, the end result is that it is Christianity that has been politicized and I don’t think the result favors either.

    I’m not opposed to individuals wearing religious symbols. I’m sorry if you don’t feel comfortable wearing them. Perhaps it’s because you’re mingling relgiong and politics. Marilyn

  39. 50

    Ted spews:

    Goldy; what if every post instead said, “marginal or radical candidate x is a favorites of Jews”, this shows the strenght of liberal Jews”….

    why the constant need to simulaneously tar the politics and the religion? Don’t the right wing whack jobs you claim Hammond and other are deserve to be challenged on their politics (call him anti poor or whatever) and not their religion.

    I think even using the term “Christians” with these right wing religious nut jobs is being misleading. They aren’t true Chritians in any sense of the word. And calling them conservatives? That’s a laugh too, they are hardly conservative anymore, at least in the traditional definition. However, that’s what they call themselves and thats what they think of themselves, so calling them what they ask to be called is “bad”? I don’t get it, righton

  40. 51

    Priscilla spews:

    Wrong again @ 42

    “I think prissy you’d rather we never practice or mention, except inside our houses w/ the doors locked.”

    No liberal, myself included, has ever suggested anything remotely close to that, jackass! Are you really this stupid or just a fucking liar? Don’t answer, we already know.

    Liberals only ask the First Amendment be respected. Respecting the Constitution is something wingnuts like you aren’t very good at, so we need to constantly remind you, it seems.

    We don’t want ANY religious group using public schools or government property to promote one religion to the preference or exclusion of others.

    What’s so hard to understand about that?

  41. 52

    Priscilla spews:

    Comment on 43

    It’s been my observation that a great deal of praying occurs in public schools, especially at test time among students in greatest need of divine intervention.

  42. 53

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    If the Repuglicans can’t reconcile less than 500 votes, all I can say is, good thing Logan and Huennekens were running King County Elections instead of some GOP math wizz.

  43. 54

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    About the reconciliation…we have no idea how many people voted twice, thrice, four times…how many inelligble folks voted, felons, etc.

    This is a MASSIVE show of fraud and incompetence (using the Repulbicans’ own theories, this is THOUSANDS OF TIME more massive than the Governor election…since nearly 2% overcount, NOT INCLUDING the illegal votes per above)….

    If the governor election was a bad thing, this is evil beyond historical comparison.

  44. 57

    David spews:

    righton (on what? crack?) @ 42 whines: “. . . you’d rather we never practice or mention [religion], except inside our houses w/ the doors locked. Sort of like persecuted chinese christians? . . . . You all seem to want us only to believe in our heads, practice behind closed doors, and if we do good deeds keep our mouths shut. . . . we can never wear a cross or never talk about faith . . . . I think you want Christians treated like Christians in Saudi Arabia; no bibles, no public worship, nothing that would identify someone as a Christian.”

    All I can say is: Don’t believe everything you think.

  45. 58

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    The Repukes are having a bad weekend it seems. Seattle Times headline says,

    “U.S. terror convictions overstated, data show”

    The story that follows (from Washington Post) says,

    “On Thursday, President Bush stepped to a lectern at the Ohio State Highway Patrol Academy in Columbus to urge renewal of the USA Patriot Act and to boast of the government’s success in prosecuting terrorists.

    “Flanked by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Bush said ‘federal terrorism investigations have resulted in charges against more than 400 suspects, and more than half of those charged have been convicted.'”

    Lemmesee … half of 400 is 200 … uhhhh … noooooo. The actual number is 39.

    Votes isn’t the only thing Repukes can’t count accurately.

  46. 59

    RonK, Seattle spews:

    Richard @ 33 — The “top two” will have both parties clutching their guts before it’s over.

    Lucky it started in an odd year, leaving time to understand its vices and undo it before it hits on an even year.

  47. 60

    Puddybud spews:

    You guys need another history lesson. So whom better to deliver it than the great Pudster. Who coined the term right-wing religious conservative? The MSM. It was “X” who is a Liberal vs. “Y”, a right-wing, Moral Majority supporting Religious Conservative was how the MSM described anyone right of them. Here is a great site to look at stuff regularly. No www in front of

    Many of you probably don’t remember the 1964 election campaign, where a little girl was counting daisies and the nuclear explosion was in the background. Negative advertising was started by the lefties. Don’t believe me? Navigate to Rutgers, a bastion of liberal thought in liberal New Jersey, armpit of the US!!! http://www.eagleton.rutgers.ed.....e-1964.htm Excerpt: “The 1964 Democratic campaign also pioneered the use of negative ads attacking the opposition, highlighted by perhaps the most famous political commercial ever broadcast, the so-called “Daisy” spot developed by media innovator Tony Schwartz, which never mentioned Goldwater by name and ran as a paid ad only once, but was repeatedly rebroadcast by television news shows covering the campaign.” So you HA lefties, you don’t have to prove to me that the MSM is not liberal. You all started it in the 1964 election cycle, let alone how Nixon was portrayed by the media on TV in the 1960 election. You see I am old enough to remember many of these issues.

    Now Goldwater didn’t say much to dissuade people, but as I remember that was when the media started calling Republicans those interesting monikers and your side has been doing that ever since.

    You should read some of the Kennesaw State University archives. They have a very good criminal justice program. David, I think they are a balanced site not too liberal like UW or other colleges around Seattle. Can you say “No military recruiters on campus” college types? Here is an article which describes how the media portrayed Goldwater. “No matter how large the crowd, the picture in the newspaper was the Senator either by himself not smiling, or with the small crowd. The impression the pictures left was that the Senator had small following and/or was not happy with his campaign.”

    But then my non-favorite site They redid the Daisy-girl nuclear explosion again. I guess you alll forgot this one too in their support of Howard “Yeeeaaaargh” Dean:
    Nuff said on that one!!! BTW they make some comments in this article that Charles Duerfur already proved to be inaccurate. You figure them out HAs.

    Then there is: Excerpt:” Likewise, Barbara O’Connor, the director of California State University’s Institute for the Study of Politics and the Media warned that viewers may tune out rather than engage with such horrific images.

    But both Jamieson and O’Connor noted that the original Daisy ad received huge news coverage after it aired 40 years ago — and has since become an icon of negative political advertising.”

    So now the left is complaining on how we portray you liberals? Hmmm…? I am not saying you started it but, when we spew the same vitriol at your side, you cry, “Mommy, dem damn wascally Republicans are not playing fair!!!”

    BTW, I am glad Steve Hammond defeated Reagan Dunn. I despise nepotism in politics and I even said it on SP. How many of you would call a spade a spade here in HA? At least I am consistent more than I can say for many of you.

    To David & Marilyn: who castigated righton on religious freedom and prayer in school. for one. There are many other ACLU lawsuits against students wanting to lead prayers in schools. Just perform a Google search on “ACLU +student +Prayer +lawsuits”, .09 seconds and 17,400 links appear. Yeah, so what some are duplicates. We have seen lots of duplicate things lately. Nuff SAID.

    Where was your voice when a student organized a prayer after school and the lefty ACLU sued the school systems for student led prayers? I guess you all were too young to remember this in 1998, But unfortunately the ACLU took it down. Even Long Beach City College (first link above) didn’t have it, so I Internet searched for it and found it again here in entirety: Read down and see how the ACLU is against even student led praying in schools. Excerpt:”The ACLU believes that the Court’s ruling in Weisman is as crystal clear in prohibiting “student-initiated prayer” as it is in barring prayer by members of the clergy. Why? Because a graduation ceremony is a public school event. Time for prayer at that event can be reserved only with the school administration’s consent. Thus, no matter who initiates the prayer, whether students, teachers or parents, school officials presiding at that school event are the prayer’s sponsors — which violates the Establishment Clause.” So all of you know I never new of this site before today, this to me is a hate site. So I expect some HA lefty vitriol eventhough I was looking for the original article on the ACLU site.

    But speaking of the ACLU: I found this on the AL Franken[stein] blog April:, where someone asked: “I found this on Bill orielly’s web site about the ACLU. I know this is a lie, considering thats all he knows how to do, but will someone please prove to me its a lie. I just want to know where I can find that this is not true. Here is the comment.

    The ACLU believes child p0rn0graphy should be available on the Net. And it is also representing NAMBLA in a civil lawsuit in Massachusetts saying the North American Man-Boy Love Association has a right to print instructions on how to rape children.” Well everyone it is true. Your vaulted ACLU hates students praying but loves nasty stuff.

    Here on CNN are some great TV Ads.

    Last thing: David, it was the Sabbath and then I had to take a business trip so I didn’t answer the other thread. You said I lost my touch in posting conservative thoughts. No, I didn’t lose my touch. You focus in on only one item in my posts that may have a potential to make your argument, ignoring the other posts, saying I babble incoherently. No David, you have no answer for the other items in the post so you say that to make you feel good.

    I hope this post raises your thoughts of Pudster again!!!


  48. 62

    Puddybud spews:

    Josef: Thank you. HAs forget history or, try to rewrite history to meet their small intellectual prisons. Unfortunately for them, I am a student of history. Yes, I have a right side bent, and I may interpret things in a biased manner. I do “troll” their sites to try and understand how they think. I love going to the ACLU and reading real psychobabble. A college professor told me, “research baby, research”!

    Priscilla: I worked on McGovern’s 1972 campaign and Jesse Jackson’s 1984 & 1988 campaign in upstate New York, as a door-to-door volunteer campaigner. In the inner city of Rochester, Buffalo, etc., many people didn’t like him! That should have been his core. Can you say carpetbagger? Oops…, that’s Hilary Clinton’s moniker!!!

  49. 63

    rujax206 spews:


    Impressive ONE SIDED research (as always).

    You are still a RIGHT WING SAP.

    We can really start anywhere but let’s just start with smears on Al Smith shall we, then work our way up to FDR and HST then we can examine the sterling campaign ethics of one Richard Milhous Nixon vs. Helen Gahagan Douglas. JFK, RFK…ooooohhh let’s not forget Willie Horton. That was a good one. Unca’ Ronnie bought the hostages with guns BEFORE the election. Clinton won in ’96 in spite of the most awesome political dirty campaign EVER! That was a thing of absolute beauty. Too bad it didn’t work (frickin’ churls). I actually think Clinton was framed or set up by the way.

    Florida in 2000…Ohio in 2004. Oh what about that well known terrorist Max Cleland. I am typing this shit and I am getting soooo FUCKING angry. Fucking SLIMY Republican lying weasel jerkoffs. The very best cheaters EVER. Oh yeah except when Joe K. beat you assholes in ’60 (I wish HE was around now).

    Yeah those damn Democrats. They are REALLY bad. Yes Sireee Bob.

  50. 65

    headless lucy spews:

    Re 23:If there’s anything I’ve learned it is that Reps can always paint themselves as the victims. And as that great Republican, Sonny Bono, was fond of saying: “All politics are local.” Would it take a tree-trunk to pound that in? I sometimes wonder…

  51. 66

    JDB spews:

    Shouldn’t we start referring to Steve Hammond as Councilman Fraudmond? Obviously he perpetrated the largest vote fraud known to this state. And is Reagan Dunn demanding Kirby Wilbur’s resignation yet?

  52. 67

    rujax206 spews:

    (via Drudge)

    “Republican slime machine says Clinton raped Hillary to conceive Chelsea
    by John in DC – 6/12/2005 10:00:00 PM

    But Howard Dean pointing out that white evangelicals run the Republican party, THAT is a low blow.

    I’m not even going to link to the story. Suffice it to say, the new book about Hillary now alleges this crap. Please, Hillary, sue their asses off.”

    I rest my case. Wingers…your guys are gooood.

  53. 68


    I am with you rujax… I get so god damn mad when I think of Ohio. Cheating bastard republicans could have stopped at a couple hundred but noooo they had to twist it and make it a 120,000 vote win. Repulican assholes!!!!!!Arrrrgh

  54. 69

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    I saw Stefan on Up Front with Robert Mak. What a whining, crybaby who comes back to irrelevant data that is completely off topic.

    Hint to Stefan — stick to blogging, you are woefully inadequate as a media person. You were eaten alive by the other guests (the other Republican was infinitely better than you)…

  55. 70

    Puddybud spews:

    Ru-a-jackass206 @ 64. I used democratic university web sites to prove my point. COme on, I implore you, visit some right leaning sites and tell me a good one!!! I wait for you to use Republican web sites to prove yours. I gave you a history lesson (1964) and you bring up 2000 and 2004 (now). Didn’t I say “Mommy, dem damn wascally Republicans are not playing fair!!!” Ru-a-jackass206, you just proved my point.

    Refute the democratic university web sites with Republican university web sites and the information I posted instead of a deflection, redirection and change of subject. Oh, that’s right, you don’t go to Liberty University, Bob Jones University or Oral Roberts University (conservative ones). They be religious universities, and well we know who doesn’t troll them!!! Nuff said.

    SAP = Smiling Alert Philadephian – Yes that I am!!!

    Haadless, good to see you posting on your own time. Tree trunks in your eyes today?


  56. 74

    headless lucy spews:

    Awwww! Poor Puddwhacker. His youthful liberal idealism was brought down by reality. Now he’s going to show us! And you walked around in a poor black neighborhood 20 years ago and actually talked to the people there! Wow! That’s incredible. And what you found was that people in the ghetto were just crying for more opportunities for personal responsibility.

  57. 76

    Puddybud spews:

    No Headless, I walked around them poor white neighborhoods and had the door slammed in my face.

    Headless Lucy – AKA Dingleberry.


  58. 77


    I bet if walked in a poor black neighborhood in Ohio you would find 125,000 John Kerry votes strewn in dumpsters. Damn Republican assholes!!!!!

  59. 80

    Puddybud spews:

    Ru-a-jackass206 @ 71. Veritas? Qui est veritas? Flocci non facere. Quamlibet, recogito. – Latin in honor of “The Passion of the Christ” by Mel Gibson.

    Truth? what is truth? You think of nothing. If you please, think again Ru-a-jackass206.


  60. 81

    K spews:

    There are some interesting stories in the Dunn v. Hammond story; rural representation v. Republican establishment (and yes, the evangelical Christian interests v. business), where to with top two, was downsizing the King County Council really the right move (one Republican delegate questioned this in the story)

    Unfortunately none are being discussed.

  61. 82

    K spews:

    This site has deteriorated to name calling, and there are floks on both sides responsible.

  62. 84

    Puddybud spews:

    Danw, you are a real turd.

    Did I quote from the site? No I refered an ACLU quote from the site. Didn’t I say that your vaulted ACLU took down the original quote? Didn’t I say some stoopid HA would say something stoopid about a site I condemn? Didn’t I say they had the ACLU quote? What part of the written word do you miss? Oh yes, you parse the words like others. Refute the ACLU, not where I had to go to find the original white paper by your buddies. Deflect, redirect, obfuscate, and confuse. I never been there before in my life.

    I’m sorry if the truth about the ACLU is found in nefarious places.


  63. 85


    Come to think of it if you search a couple black neigborhoods and maybe a gay neiborhood in Miami I bet you can find enough votes to over turn Florida. Come on rujax… are you with me.

  64. 86

    Puddybud spews:

    Mr K. I mentioned my thoughts about Hammond/Dunn. I said I despise nepotism. I said I am glad Chris Vance got spanked. I think Hammond is a better spokesperson. I then explained the use of monikers by the libs. What more do I need to add?


  65. 87

    rujax206 spews:

    What kind of Bircher idiot are you, Pud? Go back to the compound in Idaho. I’m sure they miss you. Maybe they’ve got an Opuds (really sic) Dei chapter you can sit in on. MY civil liberties are not safe with the likes of you, buster. I don’t/won’t/can’t always agree with the ACLU…but I’m damn glad they’re there. And who does the right wing run to when they need civil liberties help? Huh? Why that dirty ‘ole ACL and U.

  66. 89

    Puddybud spews:

    Danw: What do you hate more; students leading prayers in school or the ACLU protecting NAMBLA? I know it’s a tough choice for you danw, but you can do it, choose! You can do it, choose! You see, how can the ACLU be on the wrong side of both issues?


  67. 91

    K spews:

    With the KCC redistricting, both R’s and D’s worked together to protect some, and to punish some. And some from each party are on each list. (Take a look at the line that threw Ferguson into Edmond’s district) The districts as drawn are not really based on areas of interest. The only truly rural district is Kathy Lambert’s, District 3. How else do you link Bellevue to Enumclaw? There is some irony here as a motivator for the Council downsizing is rural resentmant over lack of representation. Then again if you look at the urban/rural population distribution it’s not surprising that fewer districts will limit rural influence. This, couipled with the evangelical factor probably helped Hammond.

  68. 92

    Unkl Witz spews:

    sounds to me like Dunn is done. credit the christian right. who is neither Christian or right.

  69. 94

    Righton spews:

    Nice line but ACLU is transparent (pink). Yeah they take a couple of right wing cases but they chiefly act as the legal arm of the democratic party.

    their pitch sounds great *we defend all ..” but in reality they don’t.

    they help druggies get free and i can’t even buy sudafed off the shelf

  70. 95

    K spews:

    Final thought for the night- I am a King County manager (nothing to do with elections) I have been asked, and did approve employee Bible studies during breaks in County facilities. As we approve any legal meetings during off times. Want to see my vacation pictures at a brown bag? Sure. Political activities, however must be off site.

    Good night.

  71. 96

    Puddybud spews:

    So giving NAMBLA a voice which is morally repugnant to this Pudster is “free speech” to you K and other HAs?

    What is this world coming to?

    You support the free speech of a group that tells deviants how to rape children? If you support that, then you the sick f&#$*!!! Just like you can’t yell fire in a movie theatre when there ain’t no fire, the same on ACLU and NAMBLA!! Pox on your house again!


  72. 97



    Could you ask one of your buddies over at elections wether they came come up with some provisional ballots for Ohio. Come on say you will. Me and Rujax are on a mission.

  73. 98

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    puddybutt @ 60

    “Many of you probably don’t remember the 1964 election campaign, where a little girl was counting daisies and the nuclear explosion was in the background. Negative advertising was started by the lefties.”

    Time for a little history lesson, Pudding Brains. You forget the 1948 election campaign and Nixon’s “pink sheet” smear against Helen Gahagan Douglas. As for the famous “daisy ad,” Goldwater did argue in 1964 for the use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam, which made him fair game for criticism. Unlike today’s GOP smear ads, the LBJ ad wasn’t lying. A more valid example of negative campaigning from 1964 was the Democrats’ response to H2O’s campaign slogan, “In your heart you know he’s right” — “in your guts you know he’s nuts.” But Goldwater WAS an extremist who opened himself up to that kind of criticism.

    “Here is an article which describes how the media portrayed Goldwater. ‘No matter how large the crowd, the picture in the newspaper was the Senator either by himself not smiling, or with the small crowd. The impression the pictures left was that the Senator had small following and/or was not happy with his campaign.’”

    But Puddy, Goldwater DID have only a small following of hardcore conservatives, so the reporting was accurate! What do you think the media should have reported — that H2O was wildly popular? Many moderate Republicans crossed over to vote for LBJ, giving Johnson the biggest landslide in American history: Johnson 43,129,566 popular votes (61.3%) and 486 electoral votes; Goldwater 27,178,188 popular votes (38.6%) and 52 electoral votes. No presidential candidate in history has been so emphatically repudiated by the voters.

    You criticize the ACLU’s 1q968 lawsuit against “student led prayers” but your own post makes clear the context is not students praying individually but rather a school-sanctioned, school-sponsored prayer at a graduation ceremony that sought to get around the Constitutional prohibition on state-sponsored religious ceremonies by having a student instead of a school official read the prayer. This thinly-disguised subterfuge didn’t fly past the ACLU, or the courts either.

    “Your vaulted ACLU hates students praying but loves nasty stuff.”

    Puddy, are you really this stupid? Never mind, don’t answer that. Dollars for doughnuts you’ve never gone to ACLU’s web site and read their mission statement. They defend free speech, not the content of free speech. Defending free speech doesn’t mean you’re endorsing what’s being said. The fact I’m willing to fight to the death for your right to spout your right-wing bullshit doesn’t mean I agree with you. Nuff said. Maybe sometime when I’m in the mood and have the time, I may post on HA debunking the bogus NAMBLA smear against ACLU — but not tonight.

  74. 99

    rujax206 spews:

    You ‘n Me…Ru & Ru. Jes’ lookin’ for an honest ballot. The new (un)reality show.

    C’mon, pal…we gotta go!

    P.S. Dear Wrongon-get stuffed! Don’t let little things like FACTS get in your way.

  75. 100

    Puddybud spews:

    Okay, courtesy of to break up the negativity tonight!

    The Family Tree of Vincent Van Gogh

    His dizzy aunt ——————————— Verti Gogh

    The brother who ate prunes ——————— Gotta Gogh

    The brother who worked at a convenience store — Stop n Gogh

    The grandfather from Yugoslavia —————- U Gogh

    The brother who bleached his clothes white —– Hue Gogh

    The cousin from Illinois ———————– Chica Gogh

    His magician uncle —————————– Where-diddy Gogh

    His Mexican cousin —————————– A-mee Gogh

    The Mexican cousin’s American half-brother —– Gring Gogh

    The nephew who drove a stage coach ————- Wells-far Gogh

    The constipated uncle ————————– Cant Gogh

    The ballroom-dancing aunt ———————- Tang Gogh

    The bird lover uncle ————————— Flamin Gogh

    His nephew psychoanalyst ———————– E Gogh

    The fruit-loving cousin ———————— Man Gogh

    An aunt who taught positive thinking ———– Way to Gogh

    The little bouncy nephew ———————– Poe Gogh

    A sister who loved disco ———————– Go Gogh

    And his niece who travels the country in a van – Winnie Bay Gogh

    Well, there ya Gogh

    :P Lucy!


  76. 102

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Question re 69

    What’s a “democratic university?” Do you mean big D or little D? I didn’t know the Democrats had a university? What is its name? Where is it located?

  77. 103

    Tooth Fairy spews:


    “I walked around them poor white neighborhoods and had the door slammed in my face.”

    Maybe that’s because they weren’t buying what you were selling.

  78. 105

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Comment on 80

    “This site has deteriorated to name calling, and there are floks on both sides responsible.”

    HA has been like this since Day 1, so I don’t see how you can say it has “deteriorated.”

  79. 106

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Comment on 62

    “Priscilla: I worked on McGovern’s 1972 campaign and Jesse Jackson’s 1984 & 1988 campaign in upstate New York, as a door-to-door volunteer campaigner. In the inner city of Rochester, Buffalo, etc., many people didn’t like him! That should have been his core. Can you say carpetbagger? Oops…, that’s Hilary Clinton’s moniker!!! Pudster”

    Oh so you were one of the wackos who wrecked the Democratic Party and put Reagan/Bush in power. Gracious of you to admit it, though.

  80. 108

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    K @ 86

    If we liberals have learned anything in the last 4 years, we’ve learned that if we bring a dictionary to a mud wrestling match we’ll get an ass whupping.

  81. 109

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Butt brain @ 93

    This whole post is stupid but I’ll focus on this incredibly lame remark: “they help druggies get free and i can’t even buy sudafed off the shelf”

    ACLU isn’t a public defender, dummy.

    If you need Sudafed, ask your pharmacist for it. The reason it was removed from the shelves, Puddingbrain, is because it contains a key ingredient for making meth, and thieves were stealing it for that purpose. The illicit manufacture of meth, in addition to spawning violent crime as a street drug, leaves behind highly toxic waste that is expensive and hazardous to clean up, at taxpayer expense.

    Where is your common sense?

  82. 110

    Puddybud spews:

    Tooth Fairy: You said:”Time for a little history lesson, Pudding Brains. You forget the 1948 election campaign and Nixon’s “pink sheet” smear against Helen Gahagan Douglas.” I wasn’t around then, but I will research it. If this is so egregious, why haven’t the university sites mentioned this as the first bad taste campaign? Hmmm… Another canard from the HA faithful! Thanks for the information. Also, Nixon was a jerk. I thought I already said this earlier on HA.

    Regarding the prayers, once again you extract one part. Excerpt: “Thus, no matter who initiates the prayer, whether students,” so you are saying that students do not have free speech rights? But your friend K just said the ACLU is for free speech. Oh, okay; it’s only on your terms.

    What did Goldwater say? Paraphrasing: Nuke the Communists before they get us? Well what did LBJ do? Bomb the hell out of the NVN! What did Nixon do Bomb the hell out of the NVN! Did I agree with him? No. All I did was bring to light the democratic universities recorded first nasty campaign, as identified by your side, not my side. If you are bitter and need to criticize, criticize your universities!!!!

    Yes, I have read their charter. I hope you like them Krispy Kremes. Keep your money. I don’t agree with NAMBLA free speech. If you do, well I guess you and I have a major disagreement. I await your NAMBLA rejection treatise. Regarding your side I think of Galations 5 in the Bible.

    Gal 5:17-21 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


  83. 111

    Puddybud spews:

    You know the democratic universities, where they force the military recruiters to leave their desks, Seattle. You know the democratic universities, those who “graciously” invite Ward Churchill to speak, using the Nazi term, you know who they are. You know the democratic universities, the ones who support the professor who called Christians crazy like Columbia. Need I give more.

    Gotta Gogh


  84. 113

    Donnageddon spews:

    Imagine there is no heaven, its easy if you try
    No Hell below us, above us only sky

    Imagine people living in harmony…

  85. 114

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Reply to 108

    I’ll save you the trouble:

    “The campaign was destined to be one of the nation’s most famous–and infamous. Nixon, waging an inspiring red-baiting campaign, was unrelenting in his charges. If he never actually called her a communist, saying she was ‘pink right down to her underwear’ was not a fashion critique. His legions were yet less restrained. Murray Chotiner, Nixon’s campaign manager, printed an infamous flyer that was handed out at rallies. Printed on pink paper (and, thus, forever known as the ‘pink sheet’), it more than implied a connection between Douglas and communism. Other Nixon campaign workers called Douglas a communist when they approached strangers on the street. They called her a communist when they telephoned thousands of homes the night before the election.”

    BTW Nixon, in addition to being a jerk, was a Republican – a fact I trust is not lost upon you. (Hmmm … is there a correlation?)

  86. 115

    Tooth Fairy spews:


    That’s it? That’s all you have? Uh-hunh. Okay, you named one specific university, to wit: Columbia University is now fingered as a “Democratic university.” No need to comment, but could you folks in the background tone down the raucous laughter a bit? Thanks.

  87. 116

    BiRightGuy spews:

    Hey, don’t get on the ACLU’s case if they defend NAMBLA — after all, Jim West might need their help!

  88. 118

    David spews:

    Re: Sonny Bono @ 65: “Would it take a tree-trunk to pound that in?”

    That’s low, lucy.

  89. 119

    David spews:

    K @ 90, Tooth Fairy @ 96 (last paragraph): thanks for the common-sense defense of the ACLU. Amazing how some people just want to demonize them. But the Constitution protects everyone, not just people you like and agree with.

  90. 120

    David spews:

    Another bit from Puddy: “Can you say “No military recruiters on campus” college types?

    Well, private colleges can do what they like; I think public universities are more constrained. But the real controversy right now is over military recruiters in high schools. Bob Herbert (liberal NYTimes columnist) wrote this today:

    Recruiters with the gift of gab go into the schools with a glamorous pitch, bags full of goodies for the kids (T-shirts, donuts, key chains) and a litany of promises they often can’t keep. The kids don’t hear much about their chances of being maimed or killed, or the trauma that often results from killing someone else.

    (A soldier’s job is to kill. I can still hear the drill sergeants in basic training screaming at us decades ago: “What are you? What are you?” And we’d scream back: “Killers! Killers!” And the sergeants would say, “What is your purpose?” And we would shout: “To kill! To kill!”)

    . . . .

    There’s something frankly embarrassing about a government offering trinkets to children to persuade them to go off and fight – and perhaps die – in a war that their nation should never have started in the first place. It’s highly questionable whether most high school kids are equipped to make an informed decision about joining the military, which is exactly why they’re targeted. The additional knowledge and maturity gained in the first few years after high school make it easier for a young man or woman to make a wiser, more meaningful choice, pro or con.

    Whether you like Herbert or not, he’s got a good point. People are becoming less willing to volunteer for this war as they realize more how we got there and what we’re involved in, and that it might be a long, gruesome time before we get out. If we can’t convince enough people to serve in these circumstances, we should try to change the circumstances. The military shouldn’t be hustling naïve high school students to fill its ranks instead.

  91. 121

    Marilyn spews:


    I want to comment on student led prayer or any other “led” prayer in public places. When I want or expect someone to lead me in prayer, I go to church. At other occasions, no thank you, I don’t want to be led in prayer by a complete stranger. I can say my own prayers. Students also CAN initiate their own prayers, individually. Individual prayer is very precious. That is what faith IS. There are no laws against individual prayers. I just don’t get into prayer as a group performance event. If a group wants to pray in a public park, I’m OK with that, I’ll respect their private moment and not interrupt them, but I don’t want to be roped into praying with them, either. However, imposing prayer at all functions is frankly offensive, even to many Christians. There’s a false intimacy to it, a spiritual nudity, that is offensive, and it is a most unpleasant intrusion. It’s like being forced to listen to someone’s loud boom box. I don’t have a problem with a moment of silence, but I know how to do that for myself anyway. Why does prayer have to be this big SHOW AND TELL routine, or a performance event for someone who really just wants to be on the stage? I don’t like being bullied into group prayers, and I shouldn’t have to put up with it at a public event. I can always attend the church of my choice when I want to participate in group prayer. Evangelism has become a spectacle, just another obnoxious performance art. Anymore, too many church services are indistinguishable from an Amway convention or a political event. I don’t have to go those, and I don’t, but I don’t want that obnoxiousness flung at me at every imaginable event in the name of religion, either. Marilyn

  92. 122

    Ted spews:

    Here is your classic “right wing Christian” mentality:

    The leader of a conservative Christian lobby group says that gays should be required to wear warning labels.

    “We put warning labels on cigarette packs because we know that smoking takes one to two years off the average life span, yet we ‘celebrate’ a lifestyle that we know spreads every kind of sexually transmitted disease and takes at least 20 years off the average life span according to the 2005 issue of the revered scientific journal Psychological Reports,” said Rev. Bill Banuchi, executive director of the New York Christian Coalition.

    The journal regularly publishes articles described by many mainstream psychologists as misleading and faulty. The homosexuality morbidity study was conducted by the conservative anti-gay Family Research Institute.

    from via Americablog

    Anybody who is from the self-called “Christian Coalition” is ASKING to be referred to as a “right wing Christian”. It’s WHAT THEY ARE, what they want to be called. But with the type of mentality above, I think calling them “Right Wing Christian Bigots” would be a better term.

  93. 123


    I just wanted to know, what is the “vaulted ACLU?” I’ve heard them described as vaunted, perhaps…

    I think I’d like this discussion better if it had been recorded in Dublin… :)

  94. 124

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Pudwhacker @ 111

    You should call yourself “Mr. Irrelevant” but unfortunately that screen name is already taken. The relevant law is U.S. Const. Amend. I, not Gal. 5:17-21; most of us learned this in 7th grade civics class, where were you?

  95. 125

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Comment on 121

    Another thing the recruiters aren’t telling the kids is once they go in, they can’t get out, no matter what their enlistment contract says. The U.S. Army has become the Tsarist Army, and America is becoming Tsarist Russia. We protect our kids from drug dealers, white slave traders, and pedophiles; why shouldn’t be also protect them from army recruiters bearing candy?

  96. 126

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Comment on 122

    Don’t waste your time trying to explain fine distinctions to Puddin Head, that’s not his forte. You and I both know what would happen if we tried to read our own “student led prayer” to the graduation assembly, or wanted a say in what prayer would be read; Puddin Head doesn’t have time to be bothered with such nuances.

  97. 127

    David T. spews:

    Unbelievable when fundamentalist Christians, who are trying to tell us all what we cannot do in our own private lives, claim religious prejudice. GIVE ME A FUCKIN’ BREAK!

    That’s like the KKK claiming their First Amendment right to burn crosses, the Scientologists shielding their cult behind religious freedom, Clarence Thomas claiming prejudice because he’s black, or Alberto Gonzales claiming that those who oppose torture are anti-Hispanic.


  98. 128

    headless lucy spews:

    I wonder if any of Ward Churchill’s detractors have read any of his stuff or, as is the usual case with Reps, they’ve read someone’s opinion about Ward Chuchill– and that person who wrote about WC purportedly read the works of Ward Churchill. I’ve read some of his stuff and a lot of it is right on the money. The little Eichmann remark is taken entirely out of context and in context doesn’t mean what his detractors say it means. Beside that, if the Bush administration were professionals like they claim to be, 9/11 never would have happened.

  99. 129

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Update on 99

    In #99 above, I promised I would research ACLU’s defense of NAMBLA and post it later.

    “NAMBLA” stands for “North American Man Boy Love Association,” a tiny group (300+ members) that advocates changing age-of-consent laws to allow consensual sexual relations between adult men and juvenile boys. Needless to say, this is not a popular position, and the very nature of NAMBLA, as an orgnization that advocates legalizing pedophile behavior, makes it a target of public scorn and hatred.

    In October 1997, Charles Jaynes and Salvatore Sicari lured a 10-year-old boy into their car, and killed him for refusing their sexual advances by suffocating him with a gasoline-soaked rag. Then they weighted his body with concrete and threw it in a river. Salvatore and Jaynes were convicted on murder and kidnapping charges, and received life sentences. The boy’s parents won a $328 million civil judgment against the killers, but have no prospect of ever collecting it, as the imprisoned murderers are indigent.

    The parents also filed a wrongful death suit against NAMBLA. They did not allege that NAMBLA had ever advocated or approved of child rape, kidnapping, murder, or the commission of any other crime; or even that NAMBLA’s web site and publications had incited this specific crime. Rather, the lawsuit accused NAMBLA of advocating a “child sex environment” which caused the crime to happen in some vague and unstated way.

    The Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU stepped in to defend NAMBLA from this lawsuit and oppose the parents’ attempts to force NAMBLA to release its membership list. Obviously, there were free speech, right of association, and privacy issues involved. In addition, if the lawsuit was successful, there it had broad ramifications for numerous other organizations. For example, Right-to-Life groups might be vulnerable to being sued for attacks on abortion clinics committed by individuals over whom they have no control simply because they advocate against abortion.

    The Florida chapter of the ACLU explained the NAMBA lawsuit this way: “In representing NAMBLA, the ACLU does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children. … What we do advocate is robust freedom of speech. This lawsuit strikes at the heart of freedom of speech. The defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.” Source:

    Needless to say, the ACLU’s willingness to defend unpopular speech is often misunderstood and an easy target for demagogues like Bill O’Reilly, who has castigated the ACLU for defending free speech in the NAMBLA case.

    As one commentator stated, “The ACLU is … not defending the right of men to rape and kill little boys, the men were duly convicted of crimes and the laws that they were convicted under are not at issue. They are not defending the message that NAMBLA puts out, anymore than the Jewish ACLU attorney David Goldberger was defending the anti-semitic message that the Nazis were advocating when he took their case and defended their right to assemble and speak their views, even if those views are repulsive to virtually everyone. It may well be that the ACLU will suffer financially because of this highly controversial case, as they did when they lost 30% of their membership after taking the Nazi case in Skokie. But if they do, it will be a result of the triumph of emotional demagoguery over sober thinking. And that will hurt us all far more than most people can currently envision.”

    Right-way demagogues are trying to exploit this tragic case by portraying the ACLU as defenders of two vile murderers. The ACLU had nothing to do with the legal defense of Jaynes and Sicari, although it should be noted the lawyers who did defend them obviously did not defend their crime, but rather their right to a fair trial and due process. The ACLU did not even defend the legalization of pedophile behavior advocated by NAMBLA. What the ACLU defended was NAMBLA’s constitutional right of free speech — because if it can be taken away from NAMBLA, or the Nazis, or other reviled groups — then it can be taken away from you and me, too.

  100. 130

    Righton spews:

    toothie; does the mob, or KKK also have that same right? I think you guys peddle this mantra of we defend all, but when push comes to shove you’ll never end up defending right wing speech.

  101. 132

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    132, 133

    Yes; and it should come as no surprise to either of you that the ACLU has also defended the free speech rights of the KKK and Nazis. I won’t waste any effort trying to explain to you two this wasn’t an endorsement of the KKK or Nazis. There’s only so much you can teach a pair of chimpanzees.

  102. 133

    Tooth Fairy spews:

    Let’s put it this way: If the lawsuit against NAMBLA is successful, then gun manufacturers can be sued for gun crimes, and the GOP can be sued for abortion clinic bombings. The principle is exactly the same.

  103. 136

    angryvoter05 spews:

    Headlice @ 65

    It was actually Tip O Neil who said ” All politics is local” you cant even get a friggin quote right from one of your own.

  104. 137

    GBS spews:

    If anyone reads any posts from that dispicable, lying, piece of shit Pudster “Wounded Knee” tell him I’ve responded to his post on the Shiavo Autopsy thread @ 269.