TorridJoe and Carla over at AlsoAlso and PreemptiveKarma respectively, have published the first part of a joint critique of the work of (un)Sound Politic’s prickly, right-wing numerologist, Stefan Sharkansky: “Fisking Sharkansky“.
To sum it up quickly, the Snark’s “definitive analysis” proves definitely wanting.
By Sharkansky’s own admissions, he struggled to create a file that he believed would match what King worked with to reconcile their data. But his struggle was futile from the start, which he must have known: King didn’t reconcile their data at the precinct level, they did it voter by voter, pollbook line by pollbook line. How can you claim you’ve done the definitive analysis, when you don’t even have the right file defined? We don’t think you can.
Sounds reminiscent of my statistical pissing match with Stefan over his claim that a several hundred vote victory by Gregoire in the hand recount, would still leave Rossi the statistical winner, based on plotting the first two counts. As we say in the software biz: garbage in, garbage out.
Carla and TJ hope “ignorance is the excuse” for Snark’s own irregularities, but I’m not so charitable. I think Snark’s a smart guy. And thus he knows he’s misleading his readers.
I look forward to reading their follow-up.
You don’t seem to get it for some of us, do you? It’s about getting the election system squared away.
I am not knowledgeable enough about Rossi to opine whether one is better than another, but you seem to outparse the press conference yesterday.
So, the Chelan County judge can’t call for a new election. Well, duh? So what are his options? If he invalidates the last recount, then Rossi is governor since he was ahead at the end of the second count. So he is governor, so he resigns. So where is the flip-flop? (And off the record: I dislike the analogy to the real flip-flopper)
Hence the reason you are the ass, Stefan-wannabe.
Hate being scooped?
swatter, you don’t appear to be correct about Rossi “winning” on the second count. There is only one certified count, and it shows Gregoire as the winner. The judge has three options: 1) uphold the election as valid; 2) find votes sufficient to declare Rossi the winner; 3) set aside the election without remedy, which would install the Lt. Gov.
Good analysis Goldie, but I have one for you why does he have more readers?
swatter – what part of the mess do you think need to be “fixed” first……?????…..the 9 people who voted as the dead.
The several hundred felons?
All the factual stuff I have read seem to say this election of almost 3 million ballots was done to a margin of amazing correctness.
What is the big time flaw other than your Pony Boy lost?
And – yes, King Co needs to keep working on its messes, because they are all magnified since the have the most ballots and the big spotlight is always on them.
By percent- more mistakes were made in other counties.
The new hysteria mantra of the R’s is the crises problem….that MUST be fixed….NOW.
War weapons that are no crises, retirement plans that are not in peril for 30 yers, and elections that are corect to some small fraction on one per cent………real crises, or hysterical R’ propaganda?
The politics of fear and mistrust and division……and all the while looting the treasury.
You know the answers, all of you nut wings.
Torridjoe. The certification took place after the second recount. Rossi was a certified winner. Then when the democrats paid for the recount then a new certification for the hand count. Both have been certified as a winner. THe question is voter disenfranchisement. Democrats are saying Republicans are disenfrancising Resident Aliens. WHen did non citizens become disenfranchised they dont have a write to vote in our elections. Could this be the voting block that gave the Democrats the win? Who has the right to vote. I found a half dozen felons voting by doing some research. It was verifed by others to ensure that no false accusation was made. IF the system is broken it wont ever get fixed unless you can bring the problems to light. If you have too many holes you disenfrancise legal voters because it cancels their legal vote. It doesnt matter who they voted for. THe election is for legal US Citizens only. IF anyone one else is on the voter rolls there is a problem. IF someone votes for someone else like the dead That is a problem because they are doing more than one vote. One VOTE per US Citizen and LEgal WA State Resident. No you can not vote in 2 or more states at one time. IF you have a home in 5 states does that give you the right to vote 5 times for an election. THat is not right. One vote per citizen. You choose which of the state is your primary residency.
Interesting that this site uses it’s bandwidth to bash another… and what does the other do? It puts out cold, hard facts.
Sing along now… which one of these things, are not like the others..
Actually, I have bookmarked the two blogs and like the other comments they make. I’ll frequently go back to their blogs.
The blogs actually were important to fish out and I am waiting for the Shark’s answer.
Rossi won the first two counts. You can parse words all you want but the facts are the facts.
David @6
no, the COUNT was certified at the machine recount stage. Gregoire herself was certified the winner by the Secretary of State and the Legislature. Rossi did not win the election, because a winner was not determined until then.
It puts out cold, hard facts.
Bulloney. It puts out a funhouse mirror of the facts. The distorted reflection is one of hatred and resentment.
The election was a tie. Gregoire prevailed. Get over it. Castigate the R’s who stayed home on election day or Chris Rants who was too busy playing Karl Rove to get anyone to the polls.
Whew! Glad that’s settled. Now can we all just go back to sleep?
The contention that Rossi would be declared the winner of the election by virtue of winning the second recount is a bit nonsensical.
Rossi has been stating that the outcome of the election cannot be known based on the number of “illegal votes”. Those same votes were cast and counted…no matter how many times a recount is completed.
Either the proper outcome is known or it isn’t. If the argument for a stay of the election is illegal votes then the argument that the second recount makes Rossi the winner makes no sense.
I can see why you call yourselves horsesass.org
I can also see your bias at trying to attack Stefan Sharkansky. The point here is too many illegal votes were allowed to be put in to put a socialist dem in. The military ballots were deliberately mailed out late in this state for the same reason the illegals were allowed to vote, to put someone in with the same manitallity as her voters. The means always justifies the ends in the dems’ mind.
1, 6
If the hand recount is tainted, so is the machine recount, and the original count. You guys seem to forget that only one election was held, and all 3 counts counted the same votes. What the recounts did was add a very small percentage of the total ballots that were missed by the counting machines. Also, legally speaking, the certification of Gregoire superseded the certification of Rossi, and the latter doesn’t exist anymore. No, there’s no option to fall back on the automatic recount if the judge decides to annul Gregoire’s certification. Nice try.
I still go back to Gregoire and she was right on. The election was tied. It was the one thing I agreed with whole-heartedly.
Well i read Stefan’s piece when he first posted it and understood that he was being upfront about his lack of perfect knowledge. If I recall correctly he was making the point that errors were being made. So with a 130 vote margins you can draw the conclusion that the outcome is unknown and that has always been the point.
If I need to add this, he was not alleging fraud.
Eriks @15
Not alleging fraud? So it’s just a nervous tic that causes Sharkansky to type “Fraudoire” for the governor’s name?
Dont you guys worry your pretty liberal heads, Rossi has said if he was installed as governor he would push the legislature for a revote for you guys. Then sweet Chrissy can legitametly defeat Rossi (yea right that is the real fear you guys have).
If I need to add this, he was not alleging fraud.
Oh yes he was over and over again. Did you forget about the overused term distributed fruad.” The archived posts will show he used it weekly if not daily for weeks.
Chuck @ 17
How is he going to be installed as governor, when he said he would not accept the job from a judge?
being upfront about his lack of perfect knowledge.
If I need to add this, he was not alleging fraud.
Hence, his calling Gregoire, “Fraudoire”, comparing Dean Logan to the Ochoa brothers (and apologizing to the brothers for making the comparison) and attacking anyone who pointed out the flaws in his analysis as a “shill” for King County Elections.
Yes, the Snark is a pr*ck!
Stefan was being upfront about the “lack of perfect knowledge”?
Then how can he call his imperfect knowledge “the definitive analysis”?
Errors are indeed made. It happens, especially with humans running the processes. But one can’t have a definitive analysis on something in which one hasn’t gleaned all of the correct information to analyze.
That’s my biggest problem with this entire set of shenanigans regarding Sound Politics. It isn’t about getting it right. It’s about making an allegation…seeing if it sticks…and then later setting about to prove the allegation by cobbling together unchecked bits and pieces.
he would push the legislature for a revote for you guys.
Chuck, we don’t want it, thank you very much. We have elections for governor every 4 years not whenever you guys feel like it. Spend someone else’s money for your revote.
Your candidate did not get enough support when it counted to prevail in the election. He lost. Try again in 2008.
Of course you’re welcome to keep throwing money down the legal rat hole if you have the spare funds. Some R’s have a lot of “spare funds” but that’s less money you have to use in 2006 and 2008.
Rossi wont need money in 2008, he will be a shoe in.
Carla, your comments are like a breath of fresh air.
But what else could he have done? The electon machine was stonewalling him at all his requests. He had to do what he had to do to make some kind of mathematical analysis.
As a mathematician myself, you can make numbers talk. His numbers told a story. I found it interesting that in SnoCo, which is my haunts, they couldn’t even provide him an accurate voter list. They said theirs was living and breathing (i.e. it changed daily as people died and new people registered). And when he persisted, they said it would take forever to backtrack the few deaths and new registrations since the first election. Sounded corny to me.
BTW, I am an election guy and not necessarily partisan on the governorship. I have recently heard some info on Rossi that lowers him to Gregoire’s level, which is not good. But this election sounds rotten and the front man- Dean Logan- does not inspire confidence.
John @ 23
Trouble is, John, they’re spending taxpayers’ money! That’s right, Rossi’s election contest expenses are being paid by BIAW, who got the money from workers comp taxes — money intended for injured workers! All the time we hear employers complaining about high workers comp taxes, and the “out of control” workers comp system. It’s out of control, all right. Outfits like BIAW should not be allowed to dip into the L & I till!
Chuck @ 18
Do you really think anyone on this board is stupid enough to believe that if the judge appoints Rossi governor, he “would push the legislature for a revote”? Rossi changes his tune weekly, if not daily — whatever serves his interests at this moment. If he somehow gets into Gregoire’s chair, he’ll be a market maker for recycled “No Revote” signs!
swatter @ 25
Yada yada — same old pack of Republican lies — this election was clean as a whistle compared to the elections that Republican officials run in places like Florida and Ohio. Dean Logan is a decent and honorable man who took over a troubled elections department and has made substantial improvements during his brief tenure. The Repukes are vilifying him because their boy lost. They want to recall Sam Reed because he didn’t turn out to be a partisan hack willing to rig the election for their boy. It’s the judge’s turn next. The one thing you never hear from Republicans is any discussion of issues; their practice of politics consists of attacking anyone who doesn’t fall into goose-step with the party line. Last week Gregoire put 19,000 poor kids back on medical care, while Rossi was whining about the same felons and dead voters who show up in every election. I’m sure glad she’s governor and he’s not! Rossi is the worst thing that could happen to our state.
Do you really think anyone on this board is stupid enough to believe that if the judge appoints Rossi governor, he “would push the legislature for a revote”? -Comment by Don— 2/8/05 @ 2:10 pm
Why not?
You’ve managed to convince yourselves Chrissy was legitimately elected.
swatter@25:
You say “The electon machine was stonewalling him (Sharkansy) at all his requests. He had to do what he had to do to make some kind of mathematical analysis.”
Me:
I seriously doubt that he was being thwarted in any way. I’ve found election officials in every Washington County I’ve spoken with to be helpful, dedicated and eager to assist. I believe TorridJoe has had the same experience.
I took SoundPolitics’ first allegation of bulk mail permit/military ballot disenfranchisement so seriously that I personally called King County for details. I then called Lt. Col. Steve Boyland with the Provisional Press Office in Baghdad for the rest. That took about a total of three hours of my time to get all of the information and followups completed. At no time was anyone less than helpful.
An accurate voter list IS available to Sharkansky. It’s the precinct polling books. He is free to spend his days going page by page through the sign in polling books to reconcile the votes, if he likes. It will, of course, take hour upon hour to complete it.
The same thing happened with the illegal felon vote accusations. SP was screeching about hundreds upon hundreds..and every county person I talked to who’s county was alledged found the number significantly less than SP said.
I don’t see Sharkansky as being especially interested in finding out the truth. I think he’s interested in tainting Gregiore and finding a way to get Rossi the governor job.
Don at 27– Me! Me! as he jumps up and down trying to get the attention of Don.
whoever said Dean Logan was not decent and honorable? I think the guy is incompetent. The poor guy was caught in a maelstorm (strom?) that he couldn’t extradite himself out of.
As a mathematician, it was obvious the pressure from his fellow Democrats caused him to screw up as bad as he did.
“As a mathematician”? WTF?
As a magician, I will now make the contest petition disappear!
:)
Ass @ 29
Gregoire is the duly and lawfully elected governor under the laws of our state. The fact some clowns are jumping up and down in the background and chanting “illegitimate” only means that some clowns are jumping up and down in the background and chanting …
Swatter @ 31
Dean Logan is competent, and did not screw up. The fact some clown is jumping up and down in the background and chanting “incompetent” doesn’t make it true. As for your bald-faced assertion (actually, bald-faced lie) that Logan’s discharge of his official duties was influenced by “pressure” from “fellow Democrats” … please furnish proof that (a) Logan is a Democrat, and (b) Logan was pressured by Democrats.
Don @ 27,
If the election is set aside, leaving Rossi as Governor, I think without a doubt he will present the legislature with a request for a revote. He won’t have to push it, they’ll bite that hook instantly! Rossi will do it for two reasons:
1. He knows he is a 60-40 favorite to win. Gregoire has lost a significant percentage of Democrats. Rossi has lost none of his base.
2. He doesn’t want to be an illigitimate Governor. If he didn’t seek a revote he would lose a significant amount of support including people like me.If he didn’t seek a revote he would be as bad as Christine or worse.
On another issue, what happens if the judge invalidates the election but offers no remedy? What are your thoughts?
paul daniel
Don @ 34
Seattle Times (1/9/2005): “Logan, who was once elected Kitsap County clerk as a Democrat…”
and from the same article: “But his e-mails show no trace of partisanship. Shortly before the manual recount began last month, Logan politely brushed aside a suggestion from a Democratic operative that he hire more temporary employees so Logan’s boss, County Executive Ron Sims, a Democrat, wouldn’t be hurt in his re-election bid by a slow recount.”
Now, to his credit it appears that Logan didn’t bow to Dem pressure in this example. BUT, it does show that the Demo Party wasn’t beyond trying to influence the management of the election.
And, I hope you will note that, in the interest of fairness and context, I included the whole quote — unlike those who mischaracterized Rossi’s position on the governorship.
Don 34- are you serious? Dean Logan is/was a Democrat. Would affadavits from fellow workers suffice? Do I need registrations from the Democrat party for proof? As a mathematician, I have found that partisans demanding proof don’t accept proof except beyond a smoking gun. Even a videotape isn’t enough proof. It is all a matter of what the definition of “is” is.
And Don, I don’t know what you think the definition of “incompetent” is, but the actions of the King County folks is pure incompetence. You may decry the ‘shark’ but it seemed everytime he would bring up a point, it would take the ‘machine’ a couple of days to come up with some weird rationale. And you guys still haven’t told me how there were more votes than voters.
And if I remember correctly, it was the ‘sharkster’ who pointed that out. Whether it is 200 or 3700, it is too many.
Don’t you think there was pressure from the Democrats to ‘cook’ the books, so to speak? And wasn’t it just coincidence that the voting stopped immediately after Logan and the County thought they had the votes to crown the Queen? There are no coincidences in politics.
Sorry, Carla, don’t have time to followup. I like your points and wish I could ask questions.
swatter@37
don’t have time to followup
For a “mathematician” you show an alarming lack of “proof” for your assertions.
FYI, Stefan is out taking polls on ways to silence people who disagree with him. Instead of dealing with the facts we present, he namecalls us and asks if there are ways to limit the speech.
Kudos to you for not suggesting opposing views get silenced. Keep up the good work!
I voluntarily removed myself from Stefan’s blog. Clearly, he didn’t want me around….he referred to me as a troll shortly before taking his “how do we deal with troll” poll (without, of course, reacting to any of the facts I presented).
Stefan has taken a great medium (blog) down a notch to the land of “agree with me or we’ll figure out how to censor you” — similar to those talk show hosts who belittle and name call people who disagree with them rather than taking on the facts presented.
Don’t let his one-sided, fact-searching arguments cause you to do another name calling stint — and to censure people who disagree. Keep up the fair work of putting your point of view across and allowing others to give theirs.
Let’s see if I have this right: The citizens of the State of Washington don’t need to have Dino Rossi pursue his court case in regards to fraudulent voting, dead voters, more votes than voters, aliens voting, and other assorted fraud or errors because “The Shark” has some difficulties with statistics? TorridJoe and Carla need to marshall their facts, assemble their evidence, and file an amicus curie brief in the case in Chelan County. This is just another example of why I’m moving my business (and payroll) to Florida. Three counties certainly had voting issues in 2000, but nothing like the problems in King County alone in 2004.
Swatter @ 37
I have found no incompetence on the part of King County that they haven’t owned up to and fixed. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. Currently King County has an unbalanced vote reconciliation. However, that total is less than one per polling place. Further, TorridJoe and I will be posting more information on this particular item…as I believe a great deal of perspective is missing.
Kelly McGrew @ 40
An amicus brief? Hmm…I suppose we could. I’d never really thought of it. However Sharkansky hasn’t filed one to my knowledge so I don’t see that it’s necessary. If he does so and I know it contains false information, I’d certainly do what I could to get a brief filed correcting his misstatements.
And I’d say you’ve got it when you say that the citizens of Washington don’t “need” Rossi to engage in this court battle. There is, in reality, very little left in legal dispute in terms of the election. Rossi’s hung his hat on “illegal votes”. Everything else has been set aside, apparently. Your laundry list of voting issues is cute, if not accurate. But all rhetoric aside, Rossi’s court battle is hanging by a thread.
And frankly, I take issue with your notion that King County is worse off than Florida was in 2000. That’s ludicrous, in my opinion. Florida in 2000 had a candidate (Pat Buchanan) actually coming out and saying that he didn’t get the votes that were credited to him..that it was a mistake. And in the hundreds. Further, the ballot confusion was a disaster. And don’t even get me started on the bullying tactics of the GOP.
Carla, just noticed–King had fewer than one error per PRECINCT, not polling place. There are around 600 polling places, 2600 precincts.
As for amicus briefs, I just have to laugh. We’re not lawyers, nor do I imagine there’s a whole lot we can tell them that they don’t already know. You’re the one conflating Rossi’s contest with Sharkansky’s naked attempts to support it. We’re talking about the poorly researched allegations he puts into the discourse.
Reed can and will do whatever he wants and is entitled to, surely. Your repeated reference to fraud is curious, since there are no serious allegations of fraud that I’m aware of, that are borne out–at least on the part of elections officials. If you want to call a felon who votes “committing fraud,” go ahead. I call it a mistake made possible by a poorly administered notification program by the state to the county election offices. That can and should be fixed, but it’s certainly not neglect or fraud–it’s a bad system.
Kelly @ 40,
That’s just damn hysterical. You’re moving to Florida because of their clean, efficient voting system! Ha!
Mark @ 36
Hmmm, let’s see — in your mind a “suggestion” from a “Democratic operative” that Logan “hire more temporary employees” becomes “trying to influence the management of the election.” No wonder everyone thinks wingers spout insensible babble.
Mark @ 6
OK, so I didn’t know Logan ran for office as a Democrat, that’s news to me. Which proves my point. I spent weeks in the guy’s proximity during the recounts, and he was totally nonpartisan. He sure fooled me, huh!
swatter @ 37
Aw heck, just to be a nice guy, I’ll accept Mark’s proof that Logan ran for office as a Democrat. However, having worked in government, I also understand the concept that when you occupy a nonpartisan office, you have to be nonpartisan, and that’s what Logan is today. I did not hear him say or see him do anything to the contrary. Throughout the recounts, I saw Logan as a man dedicated to his job, and I never saw any partisanship or partiality on his part. Which is more than you can say for Ken Blackwell (Ohio) or Katherine Harris (Florida). Compared to them, Logan is a saint.
swatter @ 37
>And you guys still haven’t told me how there were more votes than voters.< You must not be reading this board or any newspapers, because this issue has been thoroughly discussed. More accurately, non-issue, because it's another GOP scam. The list used by the Rs was never intended to validate the votes cast on Election Day. It is the current list. People have died, moved away, and registered since Election Day, so of course this list isn't going to jibe with the votes cast in the November election.
swatter @ 37
>Don’t you think there was pressure from the Democrats to ‘cook’ the books, so to speak?< No.
swatter @ 37
>And wasn’t it just coincidence that the voting stopped immediately after Logan and the County thought they had the votes to crown the Queen?< If you have ANY evidence the Democrats stuffed the ballot box, PLEASE call King County Prosecutor Norm Maleng (R). If you don't, shut your fat lying mouth.
Sorry for the multiple posts. It wasn’t me, and I don’t know how it happened. Somewhere between my computer and HA, it wiped out my post, as well. I tried to say:
If you have ANY evidence that “Logan and the County” stuffed the ballot box, PLEASE call King County Prosecutor Norm Maleng (R) ASAP! If you don’t, you’re just a blowhard.
Don @ 44
I’m not saying that there was some major scandal. I do, however, think that asking a political favor (albeit a small one) of a “non-partisan” is wrong. In fact, David McDonald, the “Dem operative” apologized for linking the request to politics.
My point was that if they’d make that kind of request — knowing that if it got out it wouldn’t look good — why wouldn’t they ask something else?
Understand, I’m not accusing Logan of being a Dem puppet, but I do think that you’re naive if you think that a phone call here or a phone call there doesn’t happen. I know for a fact that “consituent groups” make special and perhaps questionable requests of the officials they’ve help elect to office. And, in the interest of fairness, I’ll concede that it likely happens on both sides of the aisle.
LOGAN IS APPOINTED BY SIMS – NOT ELECTED.
THERE IS NO FRAUD- JUST ERRORS – AS IN ALL THE PROBLEMS YOU CAN THINK OF WITH A MILLION BALLOTS.
LOGAN NEED 10 VERY ANAL TYPE ASSISTANTS…..WHO ARE THRILLED WITH ACCURACY, AND GROWL AND SNARL AT ANY CHANGE OF RULES OR PROCESSING.
“I have found no incompetence on the part of King County that they haven’t owned up to and fixed.”
Sorry, but your statement fits my definition of incompetence. Why did everything have to be “fixed”? Oops, me bad, it was the election- Sorry!
Every single one of these fixes seemed to benefit the G-woman. He could have at least once or twice gone in the favor of Rossi?
Carla, comments on the lastest sharkster comments? TorridJoe?
And John, you missed my point. You can provide all sorts of numbers to back up your opinion and I like doing that, but bottom line, it comes down to the fact there were more than enough discrepancies to invalidate the election.
Mark @ 51
You want to see something “wrong”? Look no farther than Karl Rove sending his attack-lawyers to our state to muck around in a local election. Look no farther than two disputed presidential elections, each decided by one state in which major voting problems occurred under … ummm … GOP secretaries of state. Let us hope Mark is the only person here who can’t connect the dots.
Don @ 54
Yawwwwwnnnnnn… Apples… Oranges…
I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the Dems have national people in WA. I believe Kirstin Brost, mouthpiece of the WA Dems, is “on loan” to WA. And they have every right to be here.
The difference is that the WA Dems tried to tamper with the running of the vote count by appealing to a party member. Sure, it was a small request, but where there is smoke there’s fire.
As for Florida… get over it. All kinds of newspapers went in and did the recount that Gore requested and found that he still would have lost. That is not to say that FL doesn’t have problems with disenfranchisement, but it cuts both ways — illegal votes & systemic suppression.
Ohio? You’re not even close to the margin of victory, so let it rest. Not even the MSM cares.
swatter @ 53
If we’re going to invalidate elections based on discrepancies, let’s start with the presidential vote in Ohio! But I digress … getting back to King County, Logan’s job is to implement our state’s election laws, not “help” your candidate (or ours).
I realize that following the law is a novel concept for Republicans, whose litmus test for election officials is party loyalty, not fidelity to their office of public trust and responsibility. Any such official who doesn’t do everything possible to install right-wing GOP candidates is subjected to vicious personal attack (e.g., Sam Reed, Dean Logan). And to hell with the voters, what do they know anyway. (Yes, Washington’s voters DID elect Christine Gregoire, not Dino Rossi, a pesky detail that somehow just won’t go away.)
During the recounts, Chris Rants, the GOP Liar-In-Chief, attempted to portray the legally-mandated “enhancing” and “duplicating” process as “altering ballots.” Everyone who observed this process knows observers from all 3 parties made sure no votes were changed. Now let’s talk about the 735 ballots that went to the King County canvassing board at the end of the hand recount, including the 573 “lost” ballots. The bleating GOP liars have tried to spin this as ballot-box stuffing by the Democrats. That’s horseshit! Time for a fact check:
1. First of all, we’re not talking about 735 ballots, we’re talking about 566 ballots (out of the 735), because 169 of the 735 were not validated or counted.
2. The Republicans complained long and loudly about 22 ballots that were found stuck in voting machine cases. They were left unsecured, and the chain of custody could not be guaranteed, the Republicans said. Well, guess what, their message was heard and understood by the canvassing board. None of these 22 ballots were counted.
3. The 573 ballots were not “found” by Democrats. They were “found” by county election workers. Actually, they were there all along. These were actual ballots cast by actual voters that were always in secure county custody. The county simply didn’t count them in the first two go-rounds because county workers didn’t find the signatures in the county’s electronic signature database, which is not an official record, therefore the absence of your signature in that database does not disqualify your ballot. The reason those signatures weren’t there is because the county workers failed to scan them. They also failed to check the original voter registration records before disqualifying them. This was bureaucratic error, pure and simple — these voters did nothing wrong — yet the GOP went to court to disenfranchise them! That’s offensive, folks. OFFENSIVE. The Pukes are demanding that other people’s children (not their own, of course) die for democracy in Iraq, but here in King County, right in our own front yard, they sue to keep our own citizens’ lawful votes from being counted! (I better not say any more on this subject, because this really pisses me off.) Umm, actually, they went to court in Pierce County, which doesn’t have a damn thing to do with votes in King County … this is called judge-shopping, i.e., gaming the legal system.
4. If you listened to hate-talk-radio for a few minutes while this was going on, you got the impression the Democrats dug up 573 votes for Gregoire in some dusty back room of the elections department. This also is a lie. I don’t have a breakdown showing how many of the 573 ballots were validated and counted, but we know it’s less than 573 because only 566 of the 735 were counted. Of the 566, Gregoire got 311, Rossi got 191, and Bennett got 26; there also were 2 write-ins, 35 undervotes, and 1 overvote that didn’t count for any of these three candidates.
5. Also contrary to what the GOP liars want the public to believe, these 311 votes did not reverse the election result. Gregoire had already won the manual recount before the canvassing board considered the 735 disputed ballots.
More misinformation and outright lies have been put out about this election than about any other election in our state’s history. The GOP propagandists have a singular purpose: To create a false impression in the public mind that Rossi was robbed. The real victims of this sordid manipulation are the majority of voters, who chose Gregoire, not Rossi. Now the Republicans are angry because they didn’t get away with stealing this election. We Democrats aren’t enjoying this nor do we think it’s funny. If they honestly win elections, fine, but the message of this election is that we won’t be bullied into acquiescing to an unelected right-wing state government.
Don,
You really should get back on the meds. Do you have a clue how a retro system works? It is not tax dollars, these business overpaid into the system and a return is THIER MONEY. It is not taxpayer dollars. This is essentially an interest free loan from the business to the state. You do not seem to concern yourself with facts…
Don @ 26
Angry Voter is right. That isn’t L&I money that the BIAW and others are using (BTW, there are many such “retro” groups). It is money that the various employer-members overpaid into a system and get back as a fully-legal refund — just like your income taxes. The BIAW takes a member-approved slice out of the refund for managing the whole program.
Don, I luv ya!!
Don’t you think for one second that if Kerry could have drummed up enough votes in Ohio he would have. It is my understanding he waited up all night to see if he could drum up enough votes to change the outcome, but couldn’t.
It is also my understanding Ohio is going through the same hoops we are to clean up. The difference here is that (even though this State had a real clean election, so don’t get me wrong) there were enough discrepancies to invalidate the governor election. It is Gregoire herself who says it was a tie vote.
As for hired guns on both sides, I heard the Dems brought in an Indiana guy who was able to keep counting votes for the Dem until they had enough and then stopped.
And the Reps had their own guns. Ginsberg of 2000 fame was quoted in a number of sources, so he was in the mix.
Don–
Did you listen to the Sims-Logan Debacle today.
Unbelievable!
You have told us you are a retired career State Government Attorney…which I have no reason to doubt.
Now tell me Don, what attorney in their right mind would advise Sims & Logan to have a “Press Conference” right before the Republican Lawyers start deposing them????
You didn’t give them that sage advice, did you Don?
Because if you did, I can see why you are “retarded”. OOPS, I meant “RETIRED”. Sorry for the slip. I’m sure you could see how that could happen.
swatter @53
I found Stefan’s comments entirely non-responsive. He didn’t address the piece at all. He chose to illustrate two other points, seemingly declaring victory without any substantiation. He’s flat out wrong on the military ballots issue, and I think he knows it.
Don @ 56
actually, I was told by King officials that 2 of the 22 found were counted, because it could be determined they were cast on polling day, and were still sealed. They were provisionals. The other 20 were thrown out, because their security could not be guaranteed.
swatter @ 53:
If something was done in error and fixed…how is it an incompetence? Especially in terms of changing the outcome of the election? By definition, it being “fixed” means that it was in fact properly taken care of. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.
As far as Shark’s latest comments…I responded to them at PreemptiveKarma.com late this afternoon when I came back to my office. (Yes…believe it or not I have a real job..LOL)
In a nutshell..Stefan refutes nothing I’ve posted and resorts to adhominem attacks. I don’t do flame wars, however. So Stefan will have to play by himself on that one from now on. :)
torridjoe @ 61
That is entirely Stefan’s style. He seems to have learned his debating skills from a book.
Don @ 56
Thank you for the fine smackdown on the 735 votes! Sadly these R’s will be in total denial and muttering about the “stolen” election until 2008 and even after Governor Gregoire’s re-election.
Carla and TJ excellent work on debunking the arrogant Sharkansky who answers valid criticisms with ad-hominem and the most grudging of admissions. He has no credibility whatsoever.
angry @ 57
If it’s their money and not taxes, then why are they constantly bitching about paying L & I taxes?
swatter @ 59
>The difference here is that (even though this State had a real clean election, so don’t get me wrong) there were enough discrepancies to invalidate the governor election.< So far, there aren't any discrepancies let alone enough to invalidate the governor election. There are only alleged discrepancies. >It is Gregoire herself who says it was a tie vote.< Yeah, I hated it when she said that! But how many of us have never said anything inane in our entire lives? It's pretty hard for me to take her to task for that comment, considering what I did back in 1968. After flunking the Army physical, the doctor asked me if I really wanted to join, and I said ... "Yes." Nothing Gregoire said will ever top that one.
swatter @ 59
“The difference here is that (even though this State had a real clean election, so don’t get me wrong) there were enough discrepancies to invalidate the governor election.”
There aren’t any discrepancies, let alone enough to invalidate the election. There are only alleged discrepancies.
“It is Gregoire herself who says it was a tie vote.”
I hated it when she said that! But how many of us have never uttered in inane remark? Not me. I can’t be hard on G for that; after all, in ’68 after flunking the Army physical, an Army doctor asked me if I really wanted to join, and I said “yes.” Gregoire will never top that one. (Rossi might, though, at the rate he’s going.)
Don @ 68
There aren’t any discrepancies… There are only alleged discrepancies.
Don, where do you get all of your news & info? MoveOn.Org & the Groupthink Channel? I had high hopes for you, but it now seems like you’ve got some serious Kool-Aid issues.
If it isn’t a discrepancy, which is defined as a “variance,” what word would you use to describe the admitted difference between votes and voters?
admitted difference between votes and voters?
As Goldy has pointed out ad infinitum, there isn’t an admitted difference. There is an admitted difference between two lists that aren’t intented to reconcile. That’s not indicative of a difference between votes and voters.
Keep believing it all you want, but it’s not true. Republicans aren’t even bringing it up in court because they know it’s an argument that will only convince the rabidly partisan Republicans (i.e. not a judge).
jcricket @ 70
Yes, KingCo did admit to a difference in the counts — regardless of their stated reason. It is up to the judge (not you, not Shark, not Goldy) to decide if that reason is valid and/or legal. As I read the SoS’s rules, there should be NO discrepancy between the numbers for which there is not a clear, stated reason (besides, “uhhh, duhhh, I dunno”).