iPhlogging Biden

I don’t know if the TV cameras caught it, but I couldn’t help notice Michelle Obama wiping the tears from her eyes during Beau Biden’s moving introduction of his dad.

Comments

  1. 2

    Dave spews:

    Did y’all see Joe Biden’s mom, Catherine Eugenia Finnegan Biden, nodding her head and saying to the person next to her, “That’s true” when Joe was describing how she raised him and taught him to fight back?

    America is back in the house!

  2. 5

    Dave spews:

    Joey B. on the attack! “Kill” ‘em with your votes for Obama/Biden!

    “And I went up there, I said, ‘Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL.’ And I started jumpin up and down yelling, ‘KILL, KILL,’ and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, ‘KILL, KILL.’ And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, ‘You’re our boy.'”

    -Arlo Guthrie, Alice’s Restaurant

    Go vote! Go vote! The Republicans are coming! The Republicans are coming!

    “Kill” ‘em with your votes for Obama/Biden!

  3. 6

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The Great Crusade

    Sixty-four years ago, we asked a generation of young Americans to bear great burdens and make great sacrifices to defeat a great evil.

    Now, we ask all of America’s generations, young and middle aged and old, to bear whatever burden and make whatever sacrifice is necessary to defeat another vile evil — the Republican Party.

    The Republican Party works for only 2% of the American people. The Democratic Party represents the other 98%. This is doable. We will have to overcome lies, smears, disinformation, and manipulation of news and information by the rightwing-biased media. But it’s doable.

    Our opponents are ruthless. They will do anything to win. They know they can’t win an honest election. They will use every dirty trick ever invented, and invent new ones. But we can overcome all of that if we are united and determined and relentless in our effort to restore a hijacked America to its true owners — Americans.

    Tonight is the beginning of that great crusade. Let the landings begin. Give the enemy cause to fear us. Let the word go forth, from this time and place, that we are coming.

    We are coming!

  4. 7

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Run, rightys, run! Crawl back into your holes! Your time is done! The American people will rise in their righteous anger and fight through to absolute victory!

    We are coming!

  5. 8

    Dave spews:

    Taken from Senator Joe Biden’s speech:

    Failure at some point in everyone’s life is inevitable, but giving up is unforgivable. As a child I stuttered, and she lovingly told me it was because I was so bright I couldn’t get the thoughts out quickly enough. When I was not as well dressed as others, she told me how handsome she thought I was. When I got knocked down by guys bigger than me, she sent me back out and demanded that I bloody their nose so I could walk down that street the next day.

    My mother’s creed is the American creed: No one is better than you. You are everyone’s equal, and everyone is equal to you.

    As we gather here tonight, our country is less secure and more isolated than at any time in recent history. The Bush-McCain foreign policy has dug us into a very deep hole with very few friends to help us climb out. For the last seven years, this administration has failed to face the biggest forces shaping this century: the emergence of Russia, China and India as great powers; the spread of lethal weapons; the shortage of secure supplies of energy, food and water; the challenge of climate change; and the resurgence of fundamentalism in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the real central front against terrorism.

    In recent days, we’ve once again seen the consequences of this neglect with Russia’s challenge to the free and democratic country of Georgia. Barack Obama and I will end this neglect. We will hold Russia accountable for its actions, and we’ll help the people of Georgia rebuild.

    I’ve been on the ground in Georgia, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms: this Administration’s policy has been an abject failure. America cannot afford four more years of this.

    John McCain was wrong. Barack Obama was right.

    Again, John McCain was wrong. Barack Obama was right.

    John McCain was wrong. Barack Obama was right.

    Again and again, on the most important national security issues of our time, John McCain was wrong, and Barack Obama was proven right.

    Our greatest presidents-from Abraham Lincoln to Franklin Roosevelt to John Kennedy-they all challenged us to embrace change. Now, it’s our responsibility to meet that challenge.

    These are extraordinary times. This is an extraordinary election. The American people are ready. I’m ready. Barack Obama is ready. This is his time. This is our time. This is America’s time.

    May God bless America and protect our troops.

    -Senator Joseph “Joe” Biden, Democratic National Convention, Denver, Colorado, August 27, 2008

  6. 11

    demo kid spews:

    @10: That’s just about as true as the Republicans bleating about how they were responsible for lower oil prices because they talked about drilling.

  7. 12

    demo kid spews:

    @9: Yeah, you’re right… that is a concern! But pot, meet kettle. Republicans are certainly not better… and usually worse.

  8. 14

    Puddybud spews:

    Prove it wrong dummo kid.

    answers.yahoo. com/ question/index?qid=20080721175311AAOcxY2

    “Why does Obama say a “surge” will work in Afghanistan, while he adamantly said a surge would NOT work in Iraq?”

  9. 15

    Puddybud spews:

    It was Goldy and his NorthWest Division of Lunatic Moonbat!s who went apoplectic a few weeks when the local Gregoire Donkey photog was kicked out of a Rossi event because he wasn’t invited when King 5 and Komo 4 were invited.

    This happened at a hotel. He was pushed into oncoming traffic. It’s becuz Donkey don’t want the public to know they are in bed with big lobbyists when they tell the world it’s the other guys.

    BUSTED

  10. 16

    Dave spews:

    @10: That’s not true.

    My earlier post about the totalitarian Republican Politburo propaganda mill marching on appears to be correct as well, eh?…

    John McCain first said Iraq was safe. That was before he said we needed the surge. Then there was no surge (The paultry 15% troop redeployment reflected standard operating procedure, no different from what had been done in previous months/years). The diplomacy that resulted in the Sunni’s changing allegiance to support the US/Iraq against Al Qaeda was not part of “The Surge” plan.

    And Gen. Petraeus himself, often credited as the architect of the surge, recognized that there was…

    No military solution to Iraq, U.S. general says

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/.....index.html

    T’wasn’t the surge, but diplomacy that killed the beast.

  11. 17

    Dave spews:

    @10: That’s not true.

    My earlier post about the totalitarian Republican Politburo propaganda mill marching on appears to be correct as well, eh?…

    John McCain first said Iraq was safe. That was before he said we needed the surge. Then there was no surge (The paultry 15% troop redeployment reflected standard operating procedure, no different from what had been done in previous months/years). The diplomacy that resulted in the Sunnis changing allegiance to support the US/Iraq against Al Qaeda was not part of “The Surge” plan.

    And Gen. Petraeus himself, often credited as the architect of the surge, recognized that there was…

    No military solution to Iraq, U.S. general says

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/.....index.html

    “The Surge” is nothing more than a marketing term, applied to the latest standard troop redeployment.

    T’wasn’t the surge, but diplomacy that killed the beast.

  12. 19

    Puddybud spews:

    Dave, sorry but your side called him General Be-tray-us. So how can you use him for political expediency now?

    Either he’s Petraeus or Be-tray-us

  13. 20

    Puddybud spews:

    So Dave where did Petraeus say the surge didn’t work.

    Even Daily Kurse where Yelling Loser Boy gets his warm man-juice cream for his morning coffee stole from Newsweek: “Petraeus is careful not to credit all the progress to the surge of U.S. troops in 2007.”

    Barack said he didn’t think it work work AT ALL.

  14. 25

    Dave spews:

    @17 & 18 Propagandist-bud: “My” side was to do it right and double the troop strength, or don’t do it at all. Obama evidently took the latter half of that perspective.

    Although it’s not Gen Petraeus’ purview to evaluate dimplmatic missions, he’s actually gone out on a limb to suggest how important diplomacy is to achieve actual peace and harmony.

    Militarily, “The Surge” did as expected–as it had always done in the past. It put a temporary cap on violence.

    General Petraeus did, however, note the importance of the shift in Sunni allegiance away from Al Qaeda:

    The top U.S. commander in Iraq said Saturday al-Qaeda was becoming increasingly fearful over losing the support of Sunni Arabs and had begun targeting the leaders of tribal councils who have switched allegiances in favor of America.

    See: http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....aeda_N.htm

    He went further to say that this Sunni insurgency was not part of the plan. See the video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dv4iLPVvw4

    And furthermore, he is now–recently–advocating that we employ a good measure of diplomacy in the American approach to Iran:

    Petraeus: Diplomacy, Not Force, With Iran

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....deast/iraq

    Anti-American totalitarian neocon, learn how to read!

    Barack Obama is as correct about “The Surge”TM not working as he is about the effectiveness of a table missing a leg. You don’t build a table missing a leg and just hope for the outside chance that a leg appears. Not when American lives are in the balance, Comrade!

  15. 26

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Puddinghead seems to have forgotten which party opposed alternative energy, opposed fuel efficiency standards, gave tax credits to buyers of gas guzzlers, gave subsidies to oil companies, met in secret with energy industry lobbyists, and let oil companies write energy policy.

    He also seems to have forgotten that the price of gasoline quadrupled on that party’s watch, and that tens of millions of electricity consumers were ripped off by massive fraud on his party’s watch.

  16. 28

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hell, I don’t see what the big deal is with keeping the media out of a private event on private property. I mean, it’s not like they were chased out of a public park, or something.

    However, I agree it wasn’t in keeping with the spirit of openness of our party, and we should atone for it by finding some Republican demonstrators to beat the crap out of, and inviting the ABC crew to film it.

    What America needs today is some old-time union men who weren’t afraid to deal with Republicans and their lackeys with bricks, dynamite, and steel pipe! Today’s Republicans have gone soft. Most of them have never experienced being hit over the head with a bat. They’ve never had their factories and mines blown up. Yep, those old boys knew how to deal with cheap labor conservatives! Since today’s Republicans are nostalgic for the good ol’ days, maybe we should bring the good ol’ days back!

    Hey, just kidding! I’m merely trying out some Coulter laugh lines. This is all in good clean fun.

    HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

  17. 29

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Why You’re Paying 28% Interest On Your Credit Cards

    “Regulation has been left largely to the card issuers ….” (Quoted from Business Week under fair use.)

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: Another fucking failure of Bush-o-nomics.

  18. 33

    proud leftist spews:

    Puddy, m’lad, going through life being full of shit is no way to endure this earthly existence. The surge had nothing to do with the downturn in deaths in Iraq. McCain has been wrong about everything. He is a mean-assed, flip-flopping piece of shit. I am tired of Democrats referring to his service. He got shot down and held prisoner 40 years ago, and somehow that qualifies him to be president? If he wins the presidency, it is because of racism. Nothing else could explain a Republican win. Does that make you puff up with American pride?

  19. 34

    HAHA spews:

    GEE YOU GUYS ON THE LEFT ARE ALWAYS BITCHEN ABOUT THE VP HAS NO MILITARY.AND OBAMA AND BIDIN WERE IN WHAT SERVICE.OH THATS RIGHT NO SERVICE AT ALL.

  20. 35

    Dave spews:

    Hmm… The senator from Delaware supported the credit card industry, which is in… Delaware.

    At least we know he represents his constituents, unlike McCain, who’s too lazy to bring much back to Arizona and calls his ineffectiveness as a senator an anti-pork crusade.

    Let’s get Obama/Biden into the White House so they can work for all of America!

  21. 36

    Dave spews:

    I see the totalitarian anti-American Republican Politburo is back from their Stoly-fest. Welcome back, Comrades!

  22. 37

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Leadership: Obama v. McCain

    Bill George, former CEO of Medtronics and columnist for the conservative business publication Business Week, writes:

    ” … [V]oters … should try to determine the type of leader John McCain or Barack Obama would be in the world’s most powerful leadership position.

    ” … How capable a leader would John McCain or Barack Obama be as President?

    ” … McCain’s campaign has been anything but well organized. His organization has experienced high turnover, frequent resignations, terminations, and regular shifts in focus. As a candidate, McCain has often agreed on strategy and positions with his staff, only to abandon them the next day.

    ” … McCain has … often [left] a trail of messes that need to be cleaned up after him. Projecting what McCain would be like in the White House, one could probably expect … lots of turnover and instability in his cabinet and White House staff.

    “In contrast, Barack Obama got his early training as a community organizer. He has translated that experience into a massive field team that reflects a bottoms-up, … empowered organization. His key central staff members have been with him since the beginning of his campaign, as his team has experienced virtually no turnover, dissension, or organizational problems. …

    “As his candidacy has progressed, he has expanded his central team and successfully married it to his field organization. His organization resembles a growing corporate structure like Google (GOOG) or Intel (INTC): a strong central core linked to a creative group of individuals ….

    “Projecting this forward into the White House, one would likely expect a disciplined staff around Obama, integrated with empowered people throughout the government carrying out multiple initiatives. …

    “How would each of these men respond to the pressure of surprise events like September 11 or Hurricane Katrina? McCain would probably … be … impulsive. In contrast, Obama would be likely to gather a group of experts around him, listen carefully to their advice … and make decisions ….”

    (Quoted under fair use.)

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: Here’s a former CEO who’s currently a director of Exxon, Goldman Sachs, and Novartis who says, in so many words, that as potential leaders, McCain is a piece of shit, and Obama knows what he’s doing. Any winger who takes it for granted that America’s business executives will automatically support McCain may be in for a rude awakening. Corporate CEOs are, if anything, pragmatists and they didn’t get where they are by being idiots. McCain’s voters may be idiots, but Wall Street and corporate boardrooms just might tilt to Obama. It’s gonna be interesting.

  23. 39

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    So when a right wing, inbred bitch like Puddylicker starts claiming the so-called surge worked, ask him one question…

    Then WHY THE FUCK ARE WE STILL IN IRAQ ASSHOLE?

    Nuff said.

  24. 40

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I gotta admit it’s pretty amazing the GOPers actually came up with a war veteran, considering how hard it is to find anyone in the GOP who served in the military, or if they did, didn’t go AWOL. After all, the Republican Party is the party of draft dodgers, deserters, and cowards, e.g. Bush and Cheney. All of the big war heroes in politics — Kerrey, Kerry, Inouye, McGovern, Cleland, etc. — are Democrats. Republicans do everything with OPM and OPC — they spend Other People’s Money and send Other People’s Children to fight their recreational wars.

  25. 42

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @30 Dummy @30: “Iraq” is not an actual country. It’s an invention of the British, a fanciful line they drew on a map. “Iraq” is, always has been, and always will be 3 different tribes who have never gotten along and never will get along. Obama is merely stating the obvious and recognizing the actuality. Your Alzheimer’s boy, McCain, can’t even figure out which continent “Iraq” is on, much less tell the difference between a Shiite and a duck. If McCain were president, it would take 100 years just to get a troop ship to an Iraqi port, because it would take your “commander guy” that long to figure out which ocean the ship is in.

  26. 43

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    McCain was supposed to carry spare parts from Kansas to South Dakota, but crashed in Hanoi because he got lost and ran out of gas. And he thought those powerlines were the de-icing wires in his windshield.

    Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

  27. 45

    Dave spews:

    @39: Washington Mutual? I don’t know if they have any relatives working there.

    Personally, I’m in favor of eliminating social welfare programs for rich corporations, but I’m with The Economist on this whole mortgage mess.

    It was criminal to get entangled like this to begin with, and the government is backed-into either bailing-out the banks, or allowing the country to slide into ruin. Like The Economist, though, I think it is wrong to privatize the profits, but socialize the risk and liabilities.

  28. 46

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    McCain was supposed to carry spare parts from Kansas to South Dakota, but crashed in Hanoi because he got lost and ran out of gas. And he thought those powerlines were the de-icing wires in his windshield.

    Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

    And Biden:

    Chickenshit Chickenshit Chickenshit Chickenshit
    Chickenshit Chickenshit Chickenshit Chickenshit

    Of course almost all liberals are so he is perfect for the VP position with the dems.

  29. 47

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    The Republican Party works for only 2% of the American people. The Democratic Party represents the other 98%.

    Yeah and yet the dems still can’t break 50% of the popular vote. I guess it’s because the donks suck a representing the 98%. Go figure.

  30. 48

    proud leftist spews:

    Hey, Troll,
    I don’t trust someone who claims to be a Democrat but spews the Republican filth. How do you live with yourself, m’lad?

  31. 49

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    Run, rightys, run! Crawl back into your holes! Your time is done! The American people will rise in their righteous anger and fight through to absolute victory!

    We are coming!

    hehehehehehee Ah stop that, that tickles. hehhehehe

  32. 50

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    John McCain first said Iraq was safe. That was before he said we needed the surge. Then there was no surge (The paultry 15% troop redeployment reflected standard operating procedure, no different from what had been done in previous months/years). The diplomacy that resulted in the Sunnis changing allegiance to support the US/Iraq against Al Qaeda was not part of “The Surge” plan.

    Ah crap, more psycho babble from a liberal arm chair soldier. These same liberals couldn’t halt a bar fight let alone run a war. It’s funny crap though.

  33. 51

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @44 “Of course almost all liberals are”

    I voluntarily enlisted in ’68, volunteered for Vietnam, and served 13 months with a front-line combat unit in Nam.

    I have relatives who served in Vietnam, Korea, World War 2, and the Civil War.

    Which war did George W. Bush fight in, dog? Or Duck Cheney? Or … you?

  34. 52

    proud leftist spews:

    The rightwing media has done its damnedest to promote a story line of Democratic divisiveness during the Convention. The speeches of both Clintons gave the lie to that story line. Democrats, unlike Republicans who adhere to the Cult of Reaganism (whatever that might be), do have differences. We actually believe that debate is good. We believe that democracy requires different viewpoints (unlike Republicans, who adhere to the Cult of Reaganism, whatever that might be). Democrats also share some fundamental values. Bill Clinton and Joe Biden expressed them well tonight. I’m feeling good about November.

  35. 53

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @45 “I guess it’s because the donks suck a representing the 98%.”

    Or maybe loser idiots like you, your master, puddinghead, and our other resident trolls are gullible fools who swallow Republican lies hook, line, and sinker. And then there are the religion-drugged robots who think Jesus was a Nazi. But I think rigged voting machines also account for a significant percentage of the Republican “vote.”

  36. 54

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    Which war did George W. Bush fight in, dog? Or Duck Cheney? Or … you?

    I know which war Biden and Obama served in

    None.

    Any questions… didn’t think so. Shat up wabbit.

  37. 55

    spews:

    @46

    On most issues – over 50% of the issues – I am a Democrat. Take the environment, for example. I agree with Republicans on nothing when it comes to environmental issues. Abortion, same thing. Foreign policy, same thing. That’s why I claim to be a Democrat. Because I side with Democrats on most issues. Fact is, I’d feel more comfortable with Hillary as President than either Obama or McCain.

  38. 56

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    But I think rigged voting machines also account for a significant percentage of the Republican “vote.”

    Diebold is just a lie to make you losers feel better. Of course who can blame you after getting your ass kicked year after year.

  39. 57

    Dave spews:

    @48. Doggie: Read #23, doggie. Read more than just the one-syllable words–and all the way to the end of the sentences.

    The crap is all yours, doggie neocon. And the true conservatives have to walk behind you with a plastic bag.

    Now sit doggie, sit. Anti-American Republican Politburo bitch-doggie!

  40. 58

    Steve spews:

    @54 “getting your ass kicked year after year”

    I take it that 2006 was just too painful for you to remember. I can see why, what with all the trauma that splendid ass-whupping must have caused you. Given your present delicate condition, I wouldn’t be suprised one bit if 2008 didn’t cause your fucking head to explode.

  41. 59

    Steve spews:

    @55 “Anti-American Republican Politiburo bitch-doggie”

    I like your style. I often use “America-hating, commie-fascist goatfucker”.

  42. 60

    busdrivermike spews:

    Weird how the Republicans on this board love the fact we are spending $200 billion a year in Iraq. when the enemy is kicking ass in Afghanistan.

    Yeah, the surge worked….for the Taliban and Al qaeda in Afghanistan.

    I remember when Republicans thought wasting $200 billion a year when they could have lower taxes was a bad thing.

  43. 61

    spews:

    Back into the Cesspool, alas. Puddybud, I don’t know you, don’t want to know you, but, Jesus, man, you’re an idiot. Please get your grade school education, and then come back when you’re a bit educated. Say, several years from now.

  44. 62

    Steve spews:

    Clinton warmed the crowd and then Biden delivered. It was a great night for the Democrats and a great night for our country.

    Next week’s Republican convention lineup: Bush, Lieberman, McCain. Not exactly must-see TV. If they hadn’t of fucked up our country so much I could almost feel sorry for them. Nah.

  45. 63

    busdrivermike spews:

    #52

    Which war did you fight in? And how did you avoid being fragged by your underlings?

    In the rear with the gear, right?

  46. 64

    Dave spews:

    @57. Thanks, Steve. I just call it the way it is.

    The Republican party has become a bunch of America-hating, hypocritical, pan-handling John Bircher neocon scum who have absolutely nothing to do with conservative principles, freedom, liberty, or personal responsibility.

    The world rid itself of the Soviet Union nearly 20 years ago; we don’t need the same sort of gout-ridden, freeloading, dacha-dwelling, Republican Politburo idiots stinking-up our country. Comrade, go home!

  47. 65

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    John McSame made more than 30 propaganda tapes to help our enemy during the Viet Nam war. This is NOT a hero folks. This is a common piece of shit. He disobeyed Article V of the code of conduct. When others had the stones to refuse making these videos, Johnboy McSame didn’t. Just like the cowardly, AWOL, Monkeyface Bush – the “GOP” is all hat and no cattle when it comes to their chickenhawk, chickenshit war talk.

  48. 66

    kirk91 spews:

    40. Roger Rabbit spews:

    “@30 Dummy @30: “Iraq” is not an actual country. It’s an invention of the British, a fanciful line they drew on a map. “Iraq” is, always has been, and always will be 3 different tribes who have never gotten along and never will get along.”

    Try reading something from someone who’s spent time in Iraq. “Iraqis may be deeply divided along sectarian, ethnic, tribal, and factional lines,” writes Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington and one of the few US commentators to have an understanding of Iraqi politics. He points out that Iraqis “have a national consciousness, a great deal of national pride, and they do not want to be ‘occupied’ or have a US presence any longer than necessary.” During the sectarian civil war between Sunni and Shia in Baghdad in 2006-7 Iraqi nationalism may have been at a low ebb, but as the sectarian slaughter ebbed it has begun to reassert itself.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/patrick08082008.html

    Even if the Iraqis had no national consciousness why in the world is it up to the US to redraw their map? Why would the ignorant US know-it-alls do any better than the British ones did in 1920? Why is our choice now limited to well run illegal occupations and invasions and poorly run illegal occupations and invasions?

  49. 67

    spews:

    @63

    You just called John McCain a “piece of shit.” Do you also believe Darcy Burner’s brother, who served in Iraq, is also a piece of shit? After all, if war is terrorism, or worse than terrorism, as The Coward states, then aren’t the soldiers who carry out the war just as bad as terrorists?

  50. 68

    spews:

    “Undocumented immigrants to also receive reparations under Obama plan.”

    Has anyone heard any further information on this breaking story?

  51. 69

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    Hey republican Troll pretending to be a Democrat – always glad to tell you to fuck off. Now that I got that pleasure out of the way – I’ll do you the honor of answering your question. (And it IS an honor. Normally I don’t bother addressing cowards, traitors and cum-drunk ass-wipes like you.)

    No I don’t feel the same way towards Ms. Burner’s brother. He isn’t the guy who went to Nam after crashing five planes, violated Article V of the Code of Conduct and made 30 propaganda films for the enemy. If he were, I’d call him a piece of shit too.

    And I’ll call you a piece of shit although all you do is post from your mom’s basement. You don’t even have to go to the military for me to call you a piece of shit. Lucky you.

    Now try – for once in your life – to make sense you ignorant fuck.

  52. 71

    rhp6033 spews:

    Troll at 66: The only information you will get is from your fellow whisperers and rumor-mongerers who take their cues from Karl Roves’ daily talking points. You know these are lies, admit it!

    I detailed the origins of Karl Rove’s whispering and dirty tricks campaigns in a long post yesterday:

    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6261#comments (see comment # 14).

    Despite the best efforts of the Republicans, you can’t come up with anything to really stop an Obama victory. So you are relying on getting just enough support from the most ignorant of voters to (they hope) scratch out a victory.

    It must really suck to have to count on the ignorance of the American voter, along with depriving others (including servicemen) of their vote, in order to win an election. Yet the Republican party is counting on just that in this year’s election.

  53. 72

    CJS spews:

    @29 The only people who believe that McCain was right about the surge are partisan political hacks. Experts in the field, like Steven Simon of the RAND Corporation, say otherwise.

    —————-

    Simon’s is one view. You can spend all day finding “experts” debating all sides of this issue in think tank publications and journals. Individuals like Max Boot at CFR and Anthony Cordesman at CSIS provide a different perspective.

  54. 73

    spews:

    @67

    “Cum-drunk.” That was funny.

    Okay, I’ll try to make sense for once. Here’s what I’m trying to find out. I’m trying to find people who believe “war is terrorism.” Once I find one who will admit that, I’m then trying to see if they are consistent. Because if they believe war is terrorism, I want to know if they’ll then go to the next step and call a U.S. soldier who’s served in Iraq a terrorist.

    In the case of Roger Rabbit, who is now renamed The Coward, I know the answer. He believes war is WORSE than terrorism. He said so. Therefore, he believes U.S. soldiers are worse than terrorists, but, because he doesn’t have the balls to upset the Darcy Burner supports here, he won’t admit that’s what he believes.

  55. 74

    spews:

    @69

    I think you’ll be surprised how many fear-based voters there are, as well as how many people who like what Obama have to say, and agree with him on most issues, but are going to hold their nose and vote their pocketbook.

  56. 75

    rhp6033 spews:

    Once again, which candidate (Obama or McCain) best exemplifies the qualities of leadership as set forth in the Bible:

    ” 1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task.

    2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

    3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.”

    1 Timothy 3:1-3 (New International Version)

    Which candidate is “above reproach, the husband of one wife? (Obama has only been married to Michelle, whereas McCain left his disabled first wife to commit adultery and later marry his current second wife).

    Which one is “…temperate, self controlled, …not violent but gentle…”? (McCain’s temper has been documented back to his school days, and is legendary among his Senate colleagues. He even took a swing at Jesse Helms on the Senate floor, while Helms was in his upper ’80’s.)

    Which candidate is “…able to teach…”? (Obama taught Constitutional Law).

    Which candidate is “…not a lover of money…”? (McCain can’t even count the number of houses he owns, believes a person needs a net worth of at least $5 Million in order to be “wealthy”, and thinks persons earning above $250K a year are “middle class”).

    This Evangelical Protestant is voting for Obama.

  57. 76

    rhp6033 spews:

    Troll in 71 is calling a Vietnam Vet a coward.

    Typical Republican – say you are for the servicemen, but then call them names if they don’t agree with you.

    I haven’t wasted my time looking for Troll’s military credentials, but he sounds like a typical chickenhawk to me.

  58. 77

    spews:

    @74

    Actually, I’m not one of those “support the troops” people. If I were in the U.S. military, I wouldn’t have gone to Iraq. And I wouldn’t have gone to Vietnam. And I don’t respect those who did. I don’t believe it’s America’s role to be policeman of the world. I think the Iraq war is an immoral and illegal war. And the people who started it, and even the people who are making it possible (the soldiers), are doing a disservice to America.

    When it comes to foreign policy, I don’t see much of a difference between the D’s and R’s. If Obama is elected, how many of our 750 oversees bases do you think he’ll close? How many will McCain close? Both won’t close any. As far as our dominating the globe with our garrisons, and repressing sovereign nations with our soldiers (in the name of protecting our interests), there’s no difference between the two.

  59. 78

    YLB spews:

    75 – Wow. We have a real peace lover here of such high moral values that with one hand he condemns HAers for not saying anything about McGiver and on the other excuses Sutherland’s boorish behavior and McSame’s adultery.

  60. 79

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Sick twisted war lover @71 — Obviously you’ve never seen people burnt to a crisp, with their guts ripped out, or limbs torn off, or brains splattered in a street. War is a horror. Period. Sometimes waging war is necessary to prevent or stop an even worse horror, such as the great crusade against Hitler’s Nazis. But Iraq was no threat to us, did not attack us, did not even threaten us, and you fucking Republican warmongers bombed, shot, arrested, and tortured thousands of innocent, unarmed, Iraqi civilians whose only crime was living in their own country. That puts Bush’s Republicans squarely in the same camp as Hitler’s Nazis, as far as I’m concerned. It’s one thing to fight commies in Korea or Vietnam when commies are trying to take over the world by force. It’s another thing to start a war to steal another country’s oil or to create profit opportunities for politically-connected no-bid contractors. You have the balls to criticize me for fighting communism in southeast Asia while you’re a fucking apologist for the Bush warmonger/torturer regime. Fuck you! Anyone who reads this blog can figure out for themselves who the cowards are. Now shut up and go fuck your pet goat, she’s horny, and you’re keeping her waiting!

  61. 80

    rhp6033 spews:

    Troll @ 75 says: “If I were in the U.S. military, I wouldn’t have gone to Iraq. And I wouldn’t have gone to Vietnam. And I don’t respect those who did….”

    In Vietnam there was a draft in place, being in the military wasn’t exactly a “choice”. I grew up in those difficult times. I understand why some chose not to submit to the draft, and a few refused to go to Vietnam, as a matter of conscious. I won’t criticize that decision if it is indeed based on religious, philosophical, or spiritual principles. But I also won’t criticize those that did go to Vietnam, for whatever reason (patriotism or under compulsion). It’s not their fault that the government sent them into harms way unwisely, I will honor their service regardless.

    Perhaps as a Southerner, it’s easier for me to separate concept of honoring the soldier from the merits of the actual conflict – after all, we’ve had to accept that slavery, seccession, and firing on Ft. Sumter were all extremely bad ideas, but we still honor the bravery and sacrifices of Confederate soldiers who fought well for what they thought was the defense of their homeland.

    I will never call a Vietnam Veteran a coward.

    As for Iraq, I’m less inclined to be paitient with those who refuse deployment. After all, at some point they did indeed volunteer, with all the obligations that go with that act. We still don’t have a draft (as we did during Vietnam), but only because the Republicans know that it would be the ultimate political suicide for them to enact a draft in order to send troops to Iraq.

    But the current U.S. government policy of stop-loss and repeated deployments, sending National Guardsmen in their 50’s on combat tours in Iraq strains even that concept. I do, however, reserve a deep and abiding anger toward the government that lied to get us into this mess, ignored good advice from generals who knew their stuff in order to try to go in “on the cheap”, attempted to turn Iraq into a neo-con ideological and economic experiment, and as a way to launder taxpayer money into the profits of large firms which support the administration.

  62. 81

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I consider it a high honor to be attacked by these wingnut bastards. I would worry if they didn’t attack me. There’s an old saying in the woods that you can judge a rabbit’s character by who his enemies are: Dogs, peregrine falcons, snakes, SUVs, banks, bosses, Republicans, commies, and Nazis.

  63. 82

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @77 What the hell are you, some fucking hippie freak? Are you one of the assholes who spat on Vietnam vets when we came home? You think dogface soldiers have a choice? When you’re in the military, you go where you’re told, and do what you’re told! The responsibility is on those who give the orders. Fucking idiot. If you were ever in the U.S. military, which you obviously weren’t, because you know nothing about it, they would have stood you in front of a firing squad for mutiny.

  64. 83

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @77 “When it comes to foreign policy, I don’t see much of a difference between the D’s and R’s.”

    Yeah, I understand why someone who had a piano dropped on his head when he was 3 years old and has been retarded ever since wouldn’t see the difference.

  65. 84

    rhp6033 spews:

    Roger @ 79: That was me at 71. I think you were referring to some other post.

    But I think I started the error when I referred to Troll @ # 71 (which was actually the number of my own post), when I meant to say Troll @ # 73.

  66. 85

    JamesA spews:

    This election would be a lot more fun if the winner was determined based on a cage fight between John McCain’s mother, and Joe Biden’s mother. Give the both knitting needles, lock them in a cage, and may the best little ol’ lady win.

  67. 87

    Don Joe spews:

    CJS @ 72

    Simon’s is one view. You can spend all day finding “experts” debating all sides of this issue in think tank publications and journals. Individuals like Max Boot at CFR and Anthony Cordesman at CSIS provide a different perspective.

    I notice you didn’t provide links, so I’ll help you out. First, here’s Anthony Cordesman saying that the Bush Administration’s “8 for 18″ assessment of the surge is pure spin. According to Cordesman, a more accurate score card is 0 for 18.

    And, here’s a debate between Simon and Boot. Note the terms of the debate: “Has the Surge Put Iraq on the Path to Success?” They’re not debating the question of whether or not the surge has been a success. They’re debating whether or not it’s too soon to declare it a failure.

    I challenge you to find even one expert who has unequivocally declared the surge to be a success. You won’t find one.

  68. 88

    Don Joe spews:

    By the way, as regards the debate between Simon and Boot, Simon was neutral on the surge while Boot was not. No small part of Boot’s position in that debate is tethered to rescuing his own reputation–not exactly an unbiased position.

    In short, McCain was wrong about the Surge. Obama was right.

    All of McCain’s vaunted experience, including his all-expense-paid stay at the Hanoi Hilton, and his judgement still sucks. So much for experience.

  69. 89

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @84 I think I was, too. That’s a typo. Supposed to read “77” as in “Troll” traitor.

  70. 90

    CJS spews:

    I notice you didn’t provide links, so I’ll help you out. First, here’s Anthony Cordesman saying that the Bush Administration’s “8 for 18″ assessment of the surge is pure spin. According to Cordesman, a more accurate score card is 0 for 18.

    —————-

    The article referenced is 13 months old, well before the impact of the surge and other factors became apparent. There is much more recent material, including this July 2008 assessment:

    http://www.csis.org/media/csis....._trend.pdf

    Cordesman is very nuts and bolts and has been very critical/skeptical of the administration’s claims. He provides a broad assessment of where he believes the surge has worked – and where it’s failed. Unlike Simon, who advocates withdrawal, Cordesman has taken a condition-based approach.

  71. 91

    rhp6033 spews:

    Three years ago, Bush still enjoyed strong support from at least half of the American electorate. They were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and accept his promise that the Iraqi adventure was “almost” successfully concluded. Saddamm Hussein had been captured, an election had taken place in Iraq, and Bush was starting a big push to turn this into a “mandate” to privatize social security and otherwise undue Roosevelt’s “New Deal”.

    But almost three years ago this weekend, an event occured which changed American’s view of the Bush administration forever. Hurricane Katrina hit the Louisianna/Alabama coast, with resulting flooding which resulted in the loss of hundreds of lives, and large portions of the City of New Orleans became uninhabitable. Lost in the enormity of the New Orleans catastrophy was the loss of thousands of homes and businesses on the Alabama and New Orleans coastlines, reaching several miles inland as the storm surge wiped whole towns off the face of the earth.

    As much as we blame the Bush administration for a variety of things, Acts of God can’t be included in that list. The Bush administration didn’t cause the hurricane, aim it towards New Orleans, or otherwise cause the initial damage. It might be said that funding cuts to the Corps of Engineers contributed to the levy collapses, but then other previous administrations, along with local officials, bear some responsibility there, also.

    But what got America’s attention was the response to Katrina – or more accurately, the divergence between the statements being put out by the Bush Administration and the facts which were apparant for all to see on the daily news coverage.

    Bush was on vacation in Texas at the time (Rove & Cheney were also on vacation elsewhere). The Bush administration insisted it could monitor developments in Crawford, Texas just as well as it could in Washington, D.C. It took two days before Bush left Crawford, and then Air Force One merely flew over New Orleans, and then went back to Washington D.C. because – they said – they needed to be back in D.C. to “monitor the crisis and coordinate response”.

    After two days of refugees in New Orleans complaining of conditions at the SuperDome and the other sites, all covered in round-the-clock live news media coverage of the unfolding disaster, Bush claimed he had “just heard of the situation at the Superdome and Convetion Center” – to the amazement of just about every news media anchor & reporter, their incredulity obvious on their faces.

    As the federal response continued to be very week (almost non-existent), Bush made a “public relations disaster mitigation trip” to New Orleans, where he met with some people and told the FEMA director Brown that “your’e doing a heckofa job, Brownie”. Shortly thereafter it was revealed that “Brownie”‘s resume was padded (to say the least), that he didn’t have the minimum credentials needed to hold even a minor administrative position in FEMA, didn’t know what he was doing, was hired as a partison hack so he would cooperate with the neo-con agenda of dismantelling FEMA, and he was fired from his last position having something to do with Arabian horse racing. The later release of his e-mails, showing he was more concerned about what he wore on TV and that he not be interrupted while dining in restaurants in Baton Rouge, showed his utter incompetence for the job.

    More to the point, the Republican plan to dismantle FEMA blew aside the White House attempts to blame the inadequate response on local officials, the budget problems at Homeland Security caused by terrorist threats, and the argument that “nobody could have predicted the scale of this disaster”. Career professionals who had left FEMA when the Bush administration’s plans for the agency became clear pointed out that they had emergency plans in place which were never implemented, that the Times-Picayune had published a multi-part series which rather accuratly predicted this disaster just a year or two before, and that the dismantling of FEMA was a principle hallmark of the Bush administration’s plans to outsource everything, not just a temporary budget glitch caused by 9/11.

    Finally, the White House rallied behind it’s final defense – blaiming the victims and fanning prejudice and racial bigotry. Bush’s mother claimed that the disaster “turned out really well for them” because the Houston Astrodome was presumably better than where they had been living. Rove and his minions at Fox News blamed the inadequate response on local Democratic officials, the victims themselves (why couldn’t everybody just get in the SUV and leave????), and portraying blacks searching for food and water as looters, but whites doing the same as being innocent of wrongdoing.

    Things just got worse in the following months. Bush tried to turn his promise to rebuild New Orleans into an excuse to abolish minimum wage and safety laws in the affected states. Rebuilding projects were given to a few politically connected large firms, and local firms were told they must bid for sub-contracts from the large corporations, which were taking huge profits on the side. Morever, lots of local contractors were surprised to see no bid requests issued at all, but instead having the corporations send in teams from out-of-state, many apparantly employing laborers of questionable immigration status.

    So why was this such a turning point for Americans? It caused millions of Americans, people who were willing to give their President the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was telling the truth, a revelation into the true spirit of the Republican Party. They saw George Bush look into the camera and tell what they already knew to be a lie. They saw him, and other members of his administration, tell lies on a daily basis with a straight face – the same face they had used previously to assure them that victory in Iraq is only a few weeks or months away, that only terrorists were being spied upon by their government, and the numerous other lies which the Bush administration was putting out each day for public consumption. The veil was torn from their eyes, and the emperor was wearing no clothes (to employ to a mixed metaphor).

    So in case anybody here forgets – Katrina was where the bankruptcy of the Bush administration was made apparant to the majority of the American people. And most of New Orleans is still not re-built, despite Bush’s promise to do so.

  72. 92

    Daddy Love spews:

    9 Pud

    Wow, that’s what you have as “dirty tricks?” A photographer hangs out on the sidewalk outside a hotel trying to photograph Demcratic Senators and donors, the hotel complains to the police, and the police, after asking the man to move to clear the sidewalk, arrest him for non-compliance.

    I mean, where’s the “dirty trick?”

    Was it an elected offcial meeting with potential campaign donors to solicit perfectly legal campaign donations? I went to lunch with Dacy Burner and about 20 of our “closest friends” some weeks ago; was that a “dirty trick” too? Do Republicans NOT meet with donors? Jack Abramoff is going to be sentenced during the Republican convention–I think he’d tell you different.

    Was it the hotel management calling the police that was a “dirty trick?” I’ll tell you what–why don’t you loiter on the sidewalk out in front of the Olympic Hotel and photograph the rich people coming in and going out. See how long you last.

  73. 93

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    Ah, how sweet. Everyone had a tear in their eye.
      
    Proves the conservatives right that to be a democrat means more about feelings than facts.

  74. 94

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    92. Daddy Love spews:
    Wow, that’s what you have as “dirty tricks?” A photographer hangs out on the sidewalk outside a hotel trying to photograph Demcratic Senators and donors, the hotel complains to the police, and the police, after asking the man to move to clear the sidewalk, arrest him for non-compliance.

      
    Compare your reaction on this story to the guy that was asked to get off the private party at that dino event.
      
    Hypocrite?

  75. 96

    Steve spews:

    “Fair weather for Obama tonight. Too bad about the hurricane that will slam the Gulf next week, reminding America of the Republican’s second largest disasterous homeland failure and, sadly, disrupting the news cycle during their convention. The first and largest Republican disasterous failure, of course, was when, in 2001, they utterly failed to respond to the threat of Al Quada attacking America here at home. We all saw what came of that. Regarding the weather, it must really suck for Republicans to realize that even God is against them now. Geez, I can’t help but wonder if the Rev. Pat Robertson will connect the dots and grasp the meaning behind God’s wrath.”

    Republicans suck!

  76. 97

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    7. Roger Rabbit spews:
    Run, rightys, run! Crawl back into your holes! Your time is done! The American people will rise in their righteous anger and fight through to absolute victory!

      
    Rasmussen has obama up big…. by 1% (well within the margin of error)
      
    I wonder if the people that falsely believe obama is going to kill mcsame realize how out of touch they are with their fellow americans. Obviously not.

  77. 98

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    15. Puddybud spews:
    It was Goldy and his NorthWest Division of Lunatic Moonbat!s who went apoplectic a few weeks when the local Gregoire Donkey photog was kicked out of a Rossi event because he wasn’t invited when King 5 and Komo 4 were invited.

      
    CHANGE. The only change is the gullible thinking obama is any different.
      
    Every “attack” ad is proof that obama is nothing but an old school extreme-left politician. Or as jimmy carter calls him, “black boy.” I wonder if jimmy also thinks he’s clean and articulate? Or like ted kennedy stills thinks he’s still osama bin laden.
      
      
    mary jo kopechne could not be reached for comment.

  78. 99

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    51. Roger Rabbit spews:
    Which war did George W. Bush fight in, dog? Or Duck Cheney? Or … you?

      
    You are aware that bush isn’t running for office this time aren’t you?
      
    Mcsame is a war hero and running for president.
      
    And obama served how long in the military??
      
    Of course you don’t care that obama has NEVER served in the military.
      
    But obama was a community organizer. Isn’t that the guy that plants the flowers in the median between traffic lanes?

  79. 100

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 90

    The article referenced is 13 months old, well before the impact of the surge and other factors became apparent.

    You claimed, back @ 72, that Cordesman would provide a “different perspective” from that of Simon. The article I linked, despite it’s age, shows, rather strongly, that there is very little difference in perspective between Cordesman and Simon.

    There is much more recent material, including this July 2008 assessment:

    I wonder if you even bothered to read the report you linked. Compare and contrast that report with Simon’s debate with Boot that I linked earlier. Please identify precisely where Cordesman’s report differs substantially from what Simon said in the debate with Boot. There isn’t any.

    Unlike Simon, who advocates withdrawal, Cordesman has taken a condition-based approach.

    Whatever they advocate in terms of the path forward is not germane to the central question–except, perhaps, the extent to which they even advocate anything by way of a path forward serves as evidence that the surge did not succeed.

  80. 102

    CJS spews:

    You claimed, back @ 72, that Cordesman would provide a “different perspective” from that of Simon. The article I linked, despite it’s age, shows, rather strongly, that there is very little difference in perspective between Cordesman and Simon.

    The July 2007 article you linked is nothing but a scorecard of where Cordesman rated the surge at that point in time. He regularly updates this material – hence the July 2008 assessment. In July 2007 some of the worst violence was taking place – and his 2008 reports illustrate the changes from that period vividly.

    There is a clear distinction between Simon and Cordesman. Simon has advocated withdrawing according to a fixed timetable regardless of whether the surge succeeds. Cordesman, while critical of the administration’s hype, has advocated a more slow-go approach based on success in the political and economic arena, and on the ground.

    There is a clear difference in views:

    Simon:

    “I concluded that the costs of the Iraq war — to the armed services, America’s prestige, the war on terror, our rivalry with Iran, and Washington’s capacity to deal energetically and creatively with a host of other challenges – outweighed the benefits of staying in Iraq.”

    Cordesman:

    “The history of states in Iraq’s present position, however, shows that time and patience is critical. Stability takes as long as it takes, and no one can win if the result of rushing forward is sectarian and ethnic violence, and/or politics that become conflict rather than produce lasting stability.”

  81. 103

    Daddy Love spews:

    97

    RealClearPolitics shows the last six polls of the national race shwoing Obama’s lead as (in descending order)):
    +6
    +4
    +4
    +3
    tie
    tie

    The basic dynamic of this race is that over the last few weeks there has really been very little movement. McCain has not overtaken or passed Obama, who generally shows about a 3 percent lead.

    Not that any of this says anything about the state-by-state numbers, in which Obama is overtaking or passing McCain in a number of states that went for Bush in 2004, and McCain NOT doing that in any Kerry 2004 state.

  82. 104

    Daddy Love spews:

    102 CJS

    The Iraqi government, on the other hand, says, “we’re fine now; please leave.” Oh, and that Mr. Obama’s plan sounds fine to them.

    You see, once they say that, the rest is not our fucking business to decide for them.

    I believe them. John McCain does not.

  83. 105

    Daddy Love spews:

    John McCain is four more years of the same failed policies that led to $4/gal gasoline, financial meltdown, a crisis in foreclosures, incredibly expensive war without end for no reason, and a New Orleans that is still not appreciably rebuilt three years later.

  84. 106

    spews:

    I haven’t confirmed this yet, because this is breaking news, but sources say that Obama “is in talks with Ward Churchill for a high level cabinet position, possibly Secretary of State.”

  85. 107

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 102

    There is a clear distinction between Simon and Cordesman.

    Yes–with respect to how we should move forward from where we are now. That’s to be expected, quite interesting, and utterly irrelevant to the question at hand, which is whether or not the surge has been a failure.

    To that end, I have asked you to provide any information on any significant difference between Simon and Cordesman with respect to that particular question. And, so far, you’ve provided no evidence to suggest that there is any difference in their views regarding the results of the surge.

    I should point out that my original statement, that the only people who think that the surge has succeeded are partisan hacks, is the one to which you, at least apparently, took exception. If you want to wander off into some other avenue of discussion, that’s fine, but at least do me the courtesy of conceding that point. Anything less looks an awful lot like a diversionary tactic.

  86. 108

    CJS spews:

    To that end, I have asked you to provide any information on any significant difference between Simon and Cordesman with respect to that particular question. And, so far, you’ve provided no evidence to suggest that there is any difference in their views regarding the results of the surge.

    ——————–

    My point was there is no clear agreement on the success of the surge. Simon would argue it hasn’t accomplished its original goals, or at least in May 2007 he was arguing this – perhaps he has something more recent. He would probably argue it has generally failed. Though, again, in Simon’s case the surge was irrelevant to his thinking on Iraq.

    Cordesman would argue the surge has made progress and has helped stabilize conditions enough to buy time to make progress in the economic and political arena. For him it is/was a work in progress.

    Again, I believe there are significant differences between the two – we’ll just have to disagree on this. People can read the relevant material and make up their own minds.

    My personal view, incidentally, is it’s much too soon to evaluate the surge. Historians could treat it kindly or harshly depending on how things work out in Iraq – and I think that’s still an open question.

  87. 109

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 108

    My point was there is no clear agreement on the success of the surge.

    Which still doesn’t answer the question of whether or not there is any expert in the field that’s willing to claim that the surge was a success.

    Cordesman would argue the surge has made progress and has helped stabilize conditions enough to buy time to make progress in the economic and political arena.

    That might be your interpretation of Cordesman’s stance, but I’d rather like to see some evidence to back it up. From what I’ve read, Cordesman is focussing on where we go from here. He doesn’t strike me as being all that interested in debating the question one way or the other.

    The problem with your interpretation of Cordesman’s status report is that, in order to claim that the surge was even a partial success, one has to draw a plausible causal link between the troop surge and where we are now. Cordesman’s report makes no attempt to draw those causal links.

    By the way, Simon’s original article that I linked was from the May/June 2008 issue of Foreign Affairs.

    So, again, we return to my original statement: the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks. How many times are you going to kick this ball over the side line before either conceding the point or leaving the field of play?

  88. 110

    CJS spews:

    So, again, we return to my original statement: the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks.

    ———————

    I agree. Let’s see the data/analysis that supports this claim and we just may end up agreeing! Can we get this in evidence?

  89. 111

    Don Joe spews:

    CJS @ 110

    I agree. Let’s see the data/analysis that supports this claim and we just may end up agreeing! Can we get this in evidence?

    I’m not sure I follow you. What evidence do you want? Are you expecting me provide you with a complete survey of everyone who claims that the surge was a success?

    Seriously, all you have to do is find someone who isn’t a partisan hack and who argues that the surge was a success. If I’m wrong, that shouldn’t be all that hard for you to do.

  90. 112

    CJS spews:

    I’m not sure I follow you. What evidence do you want? Are you expecting me provide you with a complete survey of everyone who claims that the surge was a success?

    —————–

    I’m expecting the data/analysis that supports the claim you made. You made the claim – where’s the hard analysis backing it up?

  91. 113

    Don Joe spews:

    CJS @ 112

    I’m expecting the data/analysis that supports the claim you made. You made the claim – where’s the hard analysis backing it up?

    For more than a year, I’ve performed on average 3-4 web/news searches a week looking for analysis of the surge. I have a NetNewsWire Feedster search that looks for the words “surge” and “success”. To date, I’ve not found a single expert or analyst who is willing to claim that the surge was a success. The only persons I’ve ever found who claim that the surge was a success are partisan hacks.

    Now, you can call me a liar, or you can do your own web searches and find someone, and all you need to do is find just one, who claims that the surge is a success and who is not a partisan hack.

    By the way, squirt, I don’t take all too kindly to someone who questions my integrity the way you have in this thread. My respect for you has just gone down several notches as a result of this exchange. You’re not very far from being consigned to the realm of lazy-assed punk.

  92. 114

    CJS spews:

    For more than a year, I’ve performed on average 3-4 web/news searches a week looking for analysis of the surge. I have a NetNewsWire Feedster search that looks for the words “surge” and “success”. To date, I’ve not found a single expert or analyst who is willing to claim that the surge was a success.

    ———

    Great – put together a report and share so we can take a look at your results and confirm the thoroughness of your analysis. Otherwise we have no absolutely no idea what you have – or if you have. Otherwise it’s just an unsubstantiated claim.

    Let’s put the facts in evidence, right? (Isn’t that the phrase you use?)

  93. 115

    Don Joe spews:

    CJS @ 114

    Great – put together a report and share so we can take a look at your results and confirm the thoroughness of your analysis. Otherwise we have no absolutely no idea what you have – or if you have. Otherwise it’s just an unsubstantiated claim.

    In other words, you’re calling me a liar. When someone makes a claim that ought to be easily proved false, playing the “put up or shut up” card is about as lame as it gets.

    By the way, there are several reasons to believe that we won’t find any cogent analysis leading to the conclusion that the surge was a success, and I touched on them before. There’s a problem with the causal links.

    There are three things that we know have contributed to the reduction in sectarian violence in Iraq. These are: the Awakening, al Sadr’s willingness to keep his militias in check for political gains, and the extent to which ethnic cleansing has reduced the potential for sectarian violence.

    No one has sought to sort out the potential causes, but there is a very good reason to believe that we’d have gotten right where we are now had there been no troop surge whatsoever. Indeed, one might reasonably argue that we’ve seen a reduction in sectarian violence despite the troop surge.

    I’ve already posted a link to the most comprehensive summary of these issues in Simon’s article from the May/June 2008 issue of Foreign Affairs.

    So, I’ve already put the facts in evidence. And you’ve just consigned yourself to the realm of lazy-assed punk.

  94. 116

    CJS spews:

    In other words, you’re calling me a liar. When someone makes a claim that ought to be easily proved false, playing the “put up or shut up” card is about as lame as it gets.

    ——————

    You made the claim:

    “the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks”

    When asked for the supporting data/analysis – you’re really big on this when it applies to other people – you punted and said you had none other than the results of your own private study (Don Joe’s “Big Study”?) using a sophisticated NetNewsWire Feedster:

    ———————
    For more than a year, I’ve performed on average 3-4 web/news searches a week looking for analysis of the surge. I have a NetNewsWire Feedster search that looks for the words “surge” and “success”.
    ———————

    Whoa! But you won’t share those results, so we have to take your word for it – speaking of being lazy-assed.

    So, the fact of the matter is we still have no data to support your claim:

    “the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks”

    And nowhere in Simon’s piece – which you only latched onto as “evidence” in a fit of desperation in your last post – does it say anything about such an absurd claim – unless you’d like to point to the passage.

    In other words, you’re calling me a liar.

    No . . . just a harmless fool.

  95. 117

    Puddybud spews:

    Hey SeattleDan, I gots an education; I use it wisely to make $$$, and I use it to show the moronic folly of your side!

  96. 118

    Puddybud spews:

    Daddy Love spewed #92.

    You ferget. Your side claimed big lobbyists were for Republicans. When ABC News decides to expose the big lobbyists and their Donkey ass-kissing buds your side calls out da police.

    I remember a thread where a lefty Gregiore photog was booted and all you guys screamed bloody murder.

  97. 119

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 116

    Whoa! But you won’t share those results, so we have to take your word for it – speaking of being lazy-assed.

    You expect me to have a year’s worth of search results cached away on my hard drive? Damn, squirt, but I’m not even typing this on the same computer I had a year ago.

    Look, if you’re going to be this much of an ass-hat about this, then I’ll restate my premise in the the logically equivalent terms:

    There is no credible expert who has declared the surge to be a success.

    Now, are you going to be lame enough to demand that I prove a negative, or are you going to admit that you can’t find the single counter example that would prove that statement wrong?

    Time for you to put up or concede the point.

    In other words, you’re calling me a liar.

    No . . . just a harmless fool.

    If I were truly a harmless fool, then you wouldn’t be responding to my comments. Your actions belie your words, sport. I think you need to try this again.

  98. 120

    CJS spews:

    You expect me to have a year’s worth of search results cached away on my hard drive? Damn, squirt, but I’m not even typing this on the same computer I had a year ago.

    ——————-

    Blink.

    You made the claim:

    “the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks”

    When asked to provide data/analysis to support it you’ve continually come up empty with a parade of excuses, diversions and general blather. Your tales are getting bigger than little Caylee’s mom’s tales with each post. You’re REALLY BIG on having people “place facts into evidence” but shoot blanks when you’re asked for the evidence.

    Your new computer must be running your fiendish Feedster reader because you said:

    ——————–
    For more than a year, ***I’ve performed on average 3-4 web/news searches a week*** looking for analysis of the surge. I have a NetNewsWire Feedster search that looks for the words “surge” and “success”.
    ——————–

    Let’s get this study posted using the data from your new computer – methodology, analysis, data and results – so it can be PLACED INTO EVIDENCE as support for your claim:

    “the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks”

    If you’re too embarrassed to post the doc here, let’s find a drop off point for it somewhere. We need to GET THE FACTS INTO EVIDENCE for the claim YOU made! So far we’ve seen nothing – zilch! – and it’s just an empty claim.

    Be sure to back up your computer regularly, ok? And if you have your old computer around PLEASE hang on to it so we can perform electronic discovery if necessary, ok?

    60 days time should be sufficient for the results – after all this has to be an on-going study.

    I bet those Hooter’s servers would roll their eyes if they could see this performance, Donald.

    Good luck!

  99. 121

    Don Joe spews:

    I’m betting that this won’t go through, but if it does, you’re quite welcome to wade through the last two days of my browser’s history:

    http://www.foreignaffairs.org/.....surge.html
    http://rebecca.cfr.org/publica.....e_new.html
    http://weblogs.baltimoresun.co.....ing_n.html
    http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....ne-harris/
    http://search.live.com/results.....;form=QBLH
    http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r.....92,00.html
    http://www.bls.gov/ncs/
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r.....211056.php
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6322
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/1584023.....038;play=1
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;oe=UTF-8
    http://www.northill.demon.co.u.....stasy.html
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....21910.html
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....02621.html
    http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsme.....our_lives/
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6261#comment-852968
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6308#comment-852967
    http://www.anagrammer.com/
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r.....211229.php
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21.....1#22886841
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/26454655
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6330#comment-853341
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6316#comment-853398
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;oe=UTF-8
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6316#comment-853151
    http://news.google.com/archive.....8;ct=title
    http://www.google.com/search?h.....tnG=Search
    http://www.google.com/url?q=ht.....Xqg1OjgYoQ
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6330#comment-853311
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Surge
    http://search.live.com/results.....;form=QBLH
    http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/08/09.html
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6316#comment-853003
    http://www.cfr.org/publication.....%2F5641%2F
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....038;tab=nw
    http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15281
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6320
    http://news.google.com/archive.....nav=hist11
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6320#comment-853186
    http://search.live.com/results.....;form=QBLH
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.....crime_rate
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6330
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/n.....t_on_b.php
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r.....211040.php
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6316
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r.....211160.php
    http://search.live.com/results.....;form=QBRE
    http://blog.wired.com/defense/.....rt-ca.html
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6266#comment-852964
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/148684.php
    http://www.microsoft.com/Share.....efault.asp
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/politics/
    http://www.newshounds.us/2005/.....colmes.php
    http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailyne.....i_10262458
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-u.....(EXCHG.65).aspx
    http://barebones.com/store/bbedit_upgrades.html
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;oe=UTF-8
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6193
    http://ranchero.com/?comments=1&postid=1968
    http://www.live.com/
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....cation=rss
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
    http://www.time.com/time/natio.....09,00.html
    http://barebones.com/support/bbedit/updates.html
    http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs.....viser.aspx
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    http://www.newshounds.us/2005/.....htwing.php
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....ic-speech/
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;oe=UTF-8
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6334#comment-853380
    http://www.csis.org/media/csis....._trend.pdf
    http://barebones.com/products/bbedit/
    http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/iet.....ation.html
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.co.....in-vp.html
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-u.....76446.aspx
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6304
    http://search.live.com/news/re.....;FORM=RCNR
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r.....210965.php
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/s.....b850337fc1
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
    http://search.live.com/results.....;form=QBRE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebDAV
    http://search.live.com/news/re.....;FORM=BNLH
    http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailyne.....nesofwar_1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-u.....(EXCHG.65).aspx
    http://www.cfr.org/bios/5641/
    http://search.live.com/results.....;form=QBLH
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;oe=UTF-8
    http://search.live.com/news/re.....;FORM=BNLH
    http://z.about.com/d/political.....tement.jpg
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;oe=UTF-8
    http://news.google.com/archive.....;scoring=t
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQOC2cl3slI
    http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailyne.....5802.shtml
    http://www.google.com/search?h.....tnG=Search
    http://www.google.com/search?h.....&cd=1
    http://news.google.com/archive.....38;lnav=dt
    http://www.horsesass.org/wp-comments-post.php
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI.....index.html
    http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailyne.....gress-of-/
    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....lenews_wsj
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6330#comment-853187
    http://search.live.com/results.....;form=QBLH
    http://dailykos.com/
    http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;oe=UTF-8
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6316#comment-853131
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6334
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6334#comment-853367
    http://mog.com/deadmandeadman/blog/186210
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    http://www.elsevier.com/locate/withdrawalpolicy
    http://tpmelectioncentral.talk.....o_defi.php
    http://www.google.com/search?h.....tnG=Search
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r.....211147.php
    http://www.webdav.org/?WROXEMP.....TOKENVALUE
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6316#comment-853090
    http://www.ics.uci.edu/~ejw/authoring/
    http://www.horsesass.org/?p=6322#comment-853362
    http://barebones.com/support/b.....edit9.html

  100. 122

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 120

    You made the claim:

    “the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks”

    Yes. I’ve also pointed out that this claim is logically equivalent to saying:

    There is no credible expert who has declared the surge to be a success.

    I notice you’ve made no attempt to respond to that. Ignoring salient points is not a particularly effective rhetorical technique.

    You’re REALLY BIG on having people “place facts into evidence” but shoot blanks when you’re asked for the evidence.

    You quote the phrase “place facts into evidence,” but it’s not a phrase I’ve used in this context. I think it’s something you’ve conveniently made up in order to avoid having to go out and search the evidence for yourself.

    And, I have told people how they can find that evidence and examine it for themselves. In most cases, that would constitute “plac[ing] facts into evidence,” but for some reason you’ve not articulated, that’s not good enough for you.

    As for embarrassment, I have to say that I’m not at all embarrassed by what’s in my web browser’s history, and would be perfectly willing to post the last 30 day’s worth if the SPAM filter on this web site wouldn’t gobble it up.

    Clearly, you have some idiotic bug up your ass about something. You’ve already lost this debate several times over, so why do you insist on making such a fool of yourself? Would you have us believe that you’re willing to go to these lengths in order to cover up the fact that you can’t find a single credible export who’s willing to say that the surge has been a success?

  101. 123

    CJS spews:

    As for embarrassment, I have to say that I’m not at all embarrassed by what’s in my web browser’s history, and would be perfectly willing to post the last 30 day’s worth if the SPAM filter on this web site wouldn’t gobble it up.

    ——————

    Blink!

    More blather and diversions. Bottom line: you CAN’T provide data to support YOUR claim:

    “the only people claiming that the surge was a success are partisan hacks”

    YOU made the claim – but you can’t support it with ANY data DESPITE a (claimed) year-long “study” using an “advanced”
    NetNewsWire Feedster (perhaps share your techniques with Simom/Cordesman?).

    Nothing, zilch . . . lame.

    Big hat, no cattle . . . .

  102. 124

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 123

    Bottom line: you CAN’T provide data to support YOUR claim

    Except that I’ve told you how you can go and get that data for yourself. Why is that not sufficient? Are you too embarrassed to admit that you don’t know how to use various internet search engines?

    Nothing, zilch . . . lame.

    Big hat, no cattle . . . .

    You can stop the self-flagellation. Ashura was last April.

  103. 125

    MrRcguy spews:

    Of course they didn’t miss it. As contrived as somebody fainting at an Obama rally.

    I did watch the intro. Very very good. Very compelling story. Good for Joe.