I am, indeed, wicked and evil

If you haven’t already done so, please read Frank Rich’s column on Justice Sunday in the New York Times: “A High-Tech Lynching in Prime Time.”

Anyone who doesn’t get with this program, starting with all Democrats, is damned as a bigoted enemy of “people of faith.” But “people of faith,” as used by the event’s organizers, is another duplicitous locution; it’s a code word for only one specific and exclusionary brand of Christianity. The trade organization representing tonight’s presenters, National Religious Broadcasters, requires its members to “sign a distinctly evangelical statement of faith that would probably exclude most Catholics and certainly all Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist programmers,” according to the magazine Broadcasting & Cable. The only major religious leader involved with “Justice Sunday,” R. Albert Mohler Jr. of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, has not only called the papacy a “false and unbiblical office” but also told Terry Gross on NPR two years ago that “any belief system” leading “away from the cross of Christ and toward another way of ultimate meaning, is, indeed, wicked and evil.”

Another great column by Rich. Read the whole thing.

Comments

  1. 2

    VCRW spews:

    Well, the Democrats have truly shown they are the party of the horses ass. The recently concluded legislative session brings us the payback to their union buddies in the form of a requirement that 15% of all new public works construction be given to apprentice union members (who says the mob doesn’t get results?). And you liberals whine about BIAW. Now Washington will have the California standards for auto emissions – better run out and get your trucks and SUVs because by 2008 they will more scare than a truffle in the desert. And if you think you can skirt the law by going to Dave Smith’s in Idaho, forget about it. I-601, the will of the people of Washington was flattened by the steam roller of tax and spend liberalism. That of course, made it easy to burden the working poor with the 8 billion dollar gas tax increase they rammed through at the 11th hour. Finally, if you have a cold and want to buy cold medicine then you WILL need photo ID when you go to the pharmacy, however if you are an illegal alien, felon or dead person wanting to vote you will not. Finally, for those who live in Seattle, remember that it is not illegal to walk around doing drugs but if you don’t recycle your newspapers, they will come and get you.

  2. 3

    Janet S spews:

    This story is just another bout of blather from Frank Rich. He doesn’t actually have any scare stories about the actual people in the story, so he brings up other people who have done bad things. Guilt by association, across generations and 50 years. If this passes for your best argument, Goldy, you are really reaching.

    So, the Christian Broadcasters want broadcasters who are Christian. Wow, there’s a shock. That’s right up there with the order to kill all infidels.

  3. 5

    Stop their CATerwauling, spay/neuter ALL Pet Libs spews:

    So, was it a problem for you when Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton Bill Clinton, John Kerry, et al. tripped over each other scooting from church to church to church during campaign season?

  4. 6

    Mr. X spews:

    #5 So, was it a problem for you when Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton Bill Clinton, John Kerry, et al. tripped over each other scooting from church to church to church during campaign season?
    Comment by Stop their CATerwauling, spay/neuter ALL Pet Libs — 4/25/05 @ 8:23 am

    As a matter of fact, it sort of was. It’s a pity that Dems feel like they have to pander to the likes of you – and we see how much good it’s done.

    Speaking of church folks, when was the last time the religious rethugs on this board lifted a finger for the poor? Defended the meek? Turned the other cheek? Your selective use of the Scriptures and blind obedience to the Old Testament are tired, and, in fact, not the least Christlike.

  5. 7

    CynicalSucks spews:

    VCR-Winger:

    Nice handle. The winger tape just stays on auto-rewind-play, playing the same old, same old.

  6. 8

    dj spews:

    Goldy,

    It looks like “Justice Sunday” targeted a narrow slice of Christians. The rally’s message disenfranchises the less fundamentalist denominations—but that is only if they even notice.

    I wonder if the IRS will take away the tax exempt status of Highview Baptist Church (the way they did to NAACP after Bond criticized Bush). Hmmm. . . I think I write to my Representative and Senators suggesting an IRS investigation.

  7. 9

    Goldy spews:

    VCRW @2,

    You got complaints about the legislative session, there’s a weekly open thread you are welcome to post to, or you can wait until I cover it myself. (I will.) But when a troll like you immediately jumps in and tries to drive a thread off-topic, what it tells me is that I’ve hit a sore spot, and you don’t have a response.

    I am, however, impressed by your discipline in maintaining your own partisan message — if you are not a professional troll, you should apply for a job. I would love to refute all your lies and distortions about the legislative session, but again, you are deliberately off-topic, so I will refrain.

  8. 10

    chardonnay spews:

    rush @ 4
    you really make me laugh. thank you so much for pointing out the article about liberal burn out in the L.A. Times, ref here:

    http://www.latimes.com/feature.....;cset=true

    Red-state dominance in the last election, the war in Iraq, changes in environmental policy and the possibility of a more conservative Supreme Court have left many local activists feeling as blue as the state they live in.

    What they need, one longtime activist recently decided, is some therapy — a good old-fashioned support group tailored for the liberal activist in need of emotional rejuvenation

    But the support group functions, in many ways, like any group therapy. Participants talk, listen, cry, hug and complain.

    burn out!

  9. 11

    chardonnay spews:

    oh, FYI, you will see the article was dumped in the medicine section of the Times. medicine section???

  10. 12

    Alan spews:

    VCR-Winger @ 2

    I will take the liberty of responding to your complaints, one at a time.

    1. The concept of payback is not new — the rich got $400 billion of tax breaks in exchange for their $4 billion of donations to GOP coffers. And you begrudge apprentices a few bucks an hour? Write your complaint here -> [ ].

    2. Why do you suddenly distrust the market mechanism to respond to the new emission requirements by producing belch-free trucks and SUVs? Think of the opportunities a replacement market will create for truck and SUV dealers and salesmen. Or ride a bicycle, no emission worries. If you have more complaints, write them here -> [ ].

    3. Next election, we’ll be happy to run our platform (enact gas tax to replace Viaduct and 520 bridge, and expand I-405) against your platform (eliminate Hwy. 99 and Rte. 520, continue eastside traffic jams in perpetuity). If you have further suggestions, write them here -> [ ].

    4. So you support a permissive, laissez-faire approach to illegal meth manufacturing? If you get any more bright ideas, write them here -> [ ].

    5. Where do you plan to put Seattle’s garbage after Cedar Hills fills to the brim? Which do you prefer, recycling newspapers, or higher garbage rates? Write answer here -> [ ].

    VCR-Wingy: Long on whining, short on solutions.

  11. 13

    chardonnay spews:

    cybil-> all the garbage is here -> at horsesass->.org. that’s why we R’s are here-> to clean it up->

  12. 14

    Alan spews:

    chards of broken glass @ 13

    Criticizing is easy, solving problems is not. Please tell us what your solutions are for:

    1. State budget
    2. Viaduct and 520 bridge
    3. I-405 corridor
    4. Landfill capacity
    5. Meth labs

    P.S., if you don’t have anything constructive to say, don’t say anything.

  13. 15

    dj spews:

    To stay on topic. . . .

    “any belief system” leading “away from the cross of Christ and toward another way of ultimate meaning, is, indeed, wicked and evil.”

    The cross is such a strange symbol for Christianity: It is either adopted as a symbol of an ancient torture device, or was adopted from a pagan deity icon. The fish thing makes much more sense, and is used metaphorically in the Bible as such (even if it, too, was previously used as a pagan symbol).

    And to stray a bit in response to VCRW. . . .

    “That of course, made it easy to burden the working poor with the 8 billion dollar gas tax increase they rammed through at the 11th hour.”

    I appreciate your concern for the working poor. Of course, if we had kept the car tab tax, the rich would have paid a greater share for transportation revenue. Now we will all—rich and poor alike—pay about $50/year (assuming 10,000 miles/year, @ 20 MPG). But, some rich folks will come out ahead on this one, as they can afford hybrids or more efficient cars.

    “Finally … you WILL need photo ID when you go to the pharmacy, however if you are … [a] dead person wanting to vote you will not.”

    I think EVERY liberal is in favor of carding dead people who want to vote—especially at the polls.

    “…remember that it is not illegal to walk around doing drugs but if you don’t recycle your newspapers, they will come and get you.”

    Recreational drug use has been decriminalized? I didn’t even know that had been proposed.

  14. 16

    Alan spews:

    VCRW’s ignorance is showing. The reason for carding purchases of cold pills is they contain the key ingredient for making meth. Abandoned meth labs are toxic, a hazard to neighbors, and expensive to clean up. Why not avoid some of this with a little preventive medicine at the pharmacy?

  15. 17

    VCRW spews:

    Alan@12,

    Let me respond to your responses:

    1) So you admit it is payback to Fraudoire’s political cronies? What is wrong with it is that it is anti-comptetitive and if she wants to give her mob buddies payback, she should use her own money – not the taxpayers. Why is it that in rgards to your point #2 you are all for “market mechanisms” but when it comes to your mob backed union buddies the market doesn’t matter? Can’t they try to compete in competitive bidding for those jobs?

    2) We already have federal regulations that address this issue. The result of this feel good measure will be quotas on SUV’s and trucks. I do not live in California and the only decision I want made their that affects my life is the fall TV schedule.

    3) Go ahead and run on your platform, over $400 million in new taxes, the $8 billion in gas taxes to buy a fancy new multibillion viaduct replacement so the rich people of West Seattle can make it home in 20 minutes. Run also on addition of costly “grean rules” for buildings that even the Socialist Seattle Times has showed don’t work. I beleive the “fixes” for the “green” features of the brand spanking new justice center and the other buildings will come to at least $6 million and these have never been used! They came broke out of the factory. The liberal solution? Spend more on it, it “feels” good and liberals always beleive that if it feels good then do it.

    When the price of goods goes through the roof due to the excessive gas tax then you can explain to the poor people working minimum wage driving 20 yr old cars that get about 12 MPG that they are whining and should just go along with your plan. Of course you will argue to raise the minimum wage, but when people decline to pay $6 for a big mac and the person loses his job due to cutbacks, then you will propose more taxes for their unemployement. Democrats seem to be good at creating a lot of that.

    But hey, you can claim that Washington is #1 in the nation. We just surpassed Wisconsin as the state with the highest gas tax.

    4) How about keeping the CRIMINALS in jail instead of criminalizing good citizens who have a cold? It is an interesting reflection of the liberal priorities that don’t want our elections, the foundation of democracy, conducted accurately, yet they are all too ready to criminalize grandma when she has a sniffle. But then I guess if you want more illegal alieans, dead people and felons to vote, requiring photo ID would not be something you would support.

    You certainly want laissez-faire approach to illegal voting. There are already controls in place on cold medicines but you already knew that.

    5) Once again the choice of enforcement priorities speaks volumes to your misguided moral compass. In an age when drug use is a major problem and parents are being turned in by their children and children are being exposed to drugs too early. Yet Seattle tells their police that if someone s walking down the street toking a joint, they should not bother him or her. But by god if you don’t recycle, your going to jail.

    But then what else could one expect from liberals who advocate spending tax payer money to give drugs to addicts under the guise of “harm reduction”. Pretty soo you liberals will want those who walk the streets that are not under the influence arrested for not doing drugs.

    Finally, what solutions would I seek?

    #1) I think we could fund more citizens attending college if we repealed Gary Locke’s giveaway that grants in-state tutition rates to the children of ILLEGAL aliens. Once again I said ILLEGAL aliens. Ok, now you can start calling me racist because you have no argument.

    #2) Tolls on the Alaskan Way viaduct replacement. With average home prices in West Seattle topping $500,000 subsidizing them with gas tax dollars paid for by the entire state is nothing more than a giveaway to the rich. I thought Democrats were against that sort of thing.

    #3) In leiu of #2 above, then tear downt the viaduct and replace it with nothing. Did Portland not do a similar thing? Put the resources into the I-5, I-90 interchange and expanding I-5. At least with this solution you can look at people all over the state with a straight face and claim that they get some benefit from that spending.

    #4) True election reform would require proof of citizenship and photo ID before a person could register to vote. The stacks of voter registration forms currently sitting on tables at all the DMV offices through out the state would immediately be placed under lock and key and only given to those that could produce the photo ID and proof of citizenship.

    #5) If you want to increase revenues, then stop the business choking overregulation that drives business out of Washignton State.

  16. 18

    VCRW spews:

    Alan@16,

    There areleady are controls on this. You are showing your ignorance. Go to the pharmacy and try buying ten packs of cold medicine. THen come back and tell me about it.

  17. 19

    VCRW spews:

    Alan@12,

    Let me respond to your responses:

    1) So you admit it is payback to Fraudoire’s political cronies? What is wrong with it is that it is anti-comptetitive and if she wants to give her mob buddies payback, she should use her own money – not the taxpayers. Why is it that in rgards to your point #2 you are all for “market mechanisms” but when it comes to your mob backed union buddies the market doesn’t matter? Can’t they try to compete in competitive bidding for those jobs?

  18. 20

    VCRW1 spews:

    Alan@12,

    continued…

    2) We already have federal regulations that address this issue. The result of this feel good measure will be quotas on SUV’s and trucks. I do not live in California and the only decision I want made their that affects my life is the fall TV schedule.

  19. 21

    VCRW spews:

    4) How about keeping the CRIMINALS in jail instead of criminalizing good citizens who have a cold? It is an interesting reflection of the liberal priorities that don’t want our elections, the foundation of democracy, conducted accurately, yet they are all too ready to criminalize grandma when she has a sniffle. But then I guess if you want more illegal alieans, dead people and felons to vote, requiring photo ID would not be something you would support.

  20. 22

    VCRW spews:

    3) Go ahead and run on your platform, over $400 million in new taxes, the $8 billion in gas taxes to buy a fancy new multibillion viaduct replacement so the rich people of West Seattle can make it home in 20 minutes.

    cont’d…

  21. 23

    spews:

    vcrw @ 20
    you keep spouting a line of pure ignorance. Let me help:

    people buying psuedoeph at drug stores under false pretenses: major problem.

    people voting at the polls under someone else’s name: NONEXISTENT problem.

    I’m not sure how it criminalizes grandma to make her go to the back to buy her Sudafed. If I used baby formula, I wouldn’t consider myself a criminal because they keep it under the counter as well, to prevent theft.

  22. 24

    Liberals_afraid_to_Debate spews:

    Clearly liberals are afraid to debate. They have to screen responses because their arguments are so weak. Just like their liberal run MSM.

  23. 25

    Liberals_afraid_to_Debate spews:

    TorridJoe@23,
    We have jails for them. If you would quit letting them out.

    Are you asleep? We certainly did have people voting under someone else’s name. The dead people???? THe illegal aliens voting???? I guess you don’t want to alientate you prime constituents.

  24. 26

    Liberals_afraid_to_Debate spews:

    3) Go ahead and run on your platform, over $400 million in new taxes, the $8 billion in gas taxes to buy a fancy new multibillion viaduct replacement so the rich people of West Seattle can make it home in 20 minutes. Run also on addition of costly “green rules” for buildings that even the Socialist Seattle Times has showed don’t work. I beleive the “fixes” for the “green” features of the brand spanking new justice center and the other buildings will come to at least $6 million and these have never been used! They came broke out of the factory. The liberal solution? Spend more on it, it “feels” good and liberals always beleive that if it feels good then do it.

  25. 27

    Liberals_afraid_to_Debate spews:

    I have plenty of solutions, but the moderator is afraid to let the posts make it to the blog so in your liberal free speech world you can convince yourselves you are right. So much for liberal “diversity” of thought.

  26. 28

    spews:

    liberals @ 25
    we have jails for whom? People not yet convicted of any crime? People convicted of misdemeanors? And where did you get the idea I worked in corrections?

    As for people voting under someone else’s name–read more carefully , please. Absentee voters don’t provide ID; POLL voters do. Now, try again: name me ONE person who voted under someone else’s name AT THE POLLS in Washington last year.

  27. 29

    dj spews:

    Idiot @ 26

    Posts with certain keywords are held for approval prior to posting. Read the fucking screen below the “say it” button, dip shit!

  28. 30

    Alan spews:

    Here is my contribution to the topic of this thread. Former Sen. John Danforth (R-Missouri), who is also an Episcopal minister, wrote in the NY Times:

    “The problem is not with people or churches that are politically active. It is with a party that has gone so far in adopting a sectarian agenda that it has become the political extension of a religious movement. When government becomes the means of carrying out a religious program, it raises obvious questions under the First Amendment. But even in the absence of constitutional issues, a political party should resist identification with a religious movement. While religions are free to advocate for their own sectarian causes, the work of government and those who engage in it is to hold together as one people a very diverse country. At its best, religion can be a uniting influence, but in practice, nothing is more divisive. For politicians to advance the cause of one religious group is often to oppose the cause of another.

    “During the 18 years I served in the Senate, Republicans often disagreed with each other. But there was much that held us together. We believed in limited government, in keeping light the burden of taxation and regulation. We encouraged the private sector, so that a free economy might thrive. We believed that judges should interpret the law, not legislate. We were internationalists who supported an engaged foreign policy, a strong national defense and free trade. These were principles shared by virtually all Republicans. But in recent times, we Republicans have allowed this shared agenda to become secondary to the agenda of Christian conservatives. As a senator, I worried every day about the size of the federal deficit. I did not spend a single minute worrying about the effect of gays on the institution of marriage. Today it seems to be the other way around. The historic principles of the Republican Party offer America its best hope for a prosperous and secure future. Our current fixation on a religious agenda has turned us in the wrong direction. It is time for Republicans to rediscover our roots.”

  29. 31

    Goldy spews:

    Lib/VCRW @27

    Fuck you. I let trolls like you run free on my blog, repeating your talking points, intentionally driving threads off topic… and you have the nerve to accuse my of stomping on your right to free speech?

    As I tried to privately explain to you via email, you got caught in the blog spam filter that keeps the threads from being clogged with ads for viagra, porn sites and online gambling. And I tried to explain this politely, but you are too much of COWARD to use a valid email address.

    So fuck you. And fuck you for repeatedly attempting to repost parts of your comment, trying to get around the filter. I just spent the last ten minutes trying to clean up the mess you made, you ungrateful, impatient, trolling fucker.

  30. 32

    Alan spews:

    Foaming at the mouth @ 17

    1) How can the prevailing wage law be “payback to Fraudoire’s [sic] political cronies” when it has been on the books long before Gregoire was around? Unions like it, and many Democrats belong to unions, why the big fucking surprise that we don’t support your right-wing low-wage agenda? Do you have something against people doing hazardous and physically hard work, outdoors in all kinds of weather, making enough to support their families?

    2) Just because Bush’s administration kisses up to carmakers and polluters doesn’t mean our state has to follow suit. Voters in our state want clean air and water. If you don’t like it, move to Idaho.

    3) You didn’t tell us how we can avoid replacing the Viaduct or where the money will come from; there’s nothing here except a vague complete that it’ll be “fancy,” which is interesting as a design hasn’t been chosen yet. Interesting how you defend poor people living on minimum wage against the gas tax, being as you support right-to-work laws that would take away their minimum wage. The gas tax won’t do 1/10th to their pocketbooks what oil prices have already done to their pocketbooks.

    Let’s examine this in a little detail. There are several factors behind rising oil prices, but the two main ones are China’s economic expansion (fueled in no small part by American dollars spent on Chinese goods sold by Wal-Mart) and the cheapening of the American dollar by the borrow-and-spend policies of Bush’s administration. If you want to complain about gas prices, complain to Bush. We NEED replacements for the viaduct and 520 bridge; we DON’T need tax cuts for the rich or Bush’s useless and futile war in Iraq. Hypocrite.

    4) How does asking for a photo ID “criminalize” anyone? Oh but you want to “criminalize” voters by asking for a photo ID. Hypocrite.

    5) I’ll skip this one because I don’t live or vote in Seattle. You may want to discuss these concerns with someone who does. I do find the “moral compass” link to garbage interesting. Until now, I thought getting rid of garbage wasn’t a morality issue, just an engineering problem. Thanks for opening my eyes to the moral issues involved in getting rid of garbage.

    Solutions:

    #1) Children of illegal aliens are U.S. citizens if they’re born in this country, and have as much right to go to our colleges as you do. As to children who are not citizens or even legal residents, I do think that when resources are limited we should take care of our own first. I’m not yet persuaded that Locke failed to do that. Do you have some specific numbers?

    #2) I’ve never lived in West Seattle, and I’ve used the viaduct a lot over the last 40 years, so I don’t understand your fixation on West Seattle. The viaduct serves the entire region and carries 1/3 of the through traffic passing through downtown Seattle, I-5 the other 2/3rds. If you like Seattle’s traffic now, try eliminating the 99 route and then seen how you like it. If you don’t live in Seattle, and you want Seattle to pay all of the costs, fine — and in future you can pay for all the highways and roads in your part of the state with local property taxes, or alternatively, drive on dirt roads. That works for me. If you don’t live in one of the three big Puget Sound counties, you’re getting subsidized by people who do, so either quit taking our money or stop bitching about having to kick something into the kitty once in a while.

    #3) How is adding 4 lanes to I-5 cheaper than replacing 4 lanes of SR 99, and where are you going to get the right-of-way?

    #4) Most people can’t prove their citizenship without going to significant trouble and expense. Non-citizens voting is either a nonexistent or miniscule problem. The only purpose of this scheme is to keep people — especially those of limited means — from voting. It never ceases to amaze me how people like you are willing to send young Americans to their deaths to bring democracy to Iraqis who don’t want it, while working so hard to suppress democracy right here at home.

    #5) The business regulations you decry are necessary to protect consumers, workers, public health, and the environment; and were adopted after business people proved they can’t be trusted to regulate themselves.

  31. 33

    Alan spews:

    VCRW @ 19

    The “prevailing wage” IS market based. It’s the market wage rate created by bargaining between employers and workers.

  32. 35

    Mr. X spews:

    Good for you Goldy – I’m plenty sick of my liberal bretheren being civil and polite in the face of Rethug lies and hate speech.

    Fuck all y’all right wing motherfuckers! And you know what, my mommy (a Presbyterian minister) would have no problems with my putting it that way…

  33. 36

    Mr. X spews:

    “..Now Washington will have the California standards for auto emissions – better run out and get your trucks and SUVs because by 2008 they will more scare than a truffle in the desert…”

    Yet another display of breathtaking ignorance. Have you BEEN to California lately? I made several business trips to the Bay Area last year, and I saw plenty of trucks and SUV’s – and that was in San Francisco and environs – just try going east of the Bay Area to Dublin and the number increases dramatically. And yes, that is in the state where the proposed emissions standards would eliminate trucks and SUV’s according to the factually-challanged VCRW (my most polite guess on what VCRW stands for is Vehemently Clueless Rethug Wingnut)

  34. 37

    Mr. X spews:

    “…#2) Tolls on the Alaskan Way viaduct replacement. With average home prices in West Seattle topping $500,000 subsidizing them with gas tax dollars paid for by the entire state is nothing more than a giveaway to the rich. I thought Democrats were against that sort of thing.

    Yet another clueless statement. You might try median home price – while there are indeed wealthy people in West Seattle (particularly by the water), there are many more middle income people, and a goodly number of poor folks in neighorhoods such as Delridge and High Point. Among my 30-something cohorts, West Seattle is overwhelmingly becoming the neighborhood of choice because they can’t afford to live elsewhere in the City. Dumbass.

  35. 38

    Alan spews:

    “Rove’s agenda … is to take his vision of a different constitutional order, and marry it to political tactics that work within that order. He is attempting to make a coherent set of changes that will force governments that come after this one to adhere to the broad outlines of the kind of state that is now being established … a nation that has a very different relationship to God than before. The God of the old order was a symbolic one, to which the nation gave thanks, but … according to the freedom of their own conscience. The God of Rove’s Republic is a very different sort, a figure that is the source of punitive law, and that overrides any other agreements or laws. The political tactics rest squarely on the permission that this different conception of God rests upon; rather than the government being charged with insuring plenty, it is charged with ensuring conformity. The upholders of the faith are also the political enforcers of the Republican Party. To win the Republican Party’s nomination for President … requires securing its good graces. And it is Rove’s intent to create a permanent political coalition where only a Republican can win the White House.

    “Rove entered the White House believing that this was a constitutional moment, and many of the people who have opposed Bush from the beginning believed it as well. And now, perhaps belatedly, it has become generally understood that this moment is one in which the basic nature of our government is in play, where the very stuff of the constitution is open to being shaped by the decisions that are made, or left unmade.”

    http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/042505B.shtml

  36. 39

    Jeff B. spews:

    Secular irrationalism (liberals) is just as bad as religious irrationalism (christian right) and neither is a solution to the other.

    The party that will save this country and stop the devisive debate will be of a secular right makeup. Combining the best elements of a pro-capitalism, pro-individual, pro-liberty, pro-discipline, pro-scrutiny of public officials and public largess, pro-personal responsibility right, with the tolerance of a pro-abortion, pro-civil union, pro-secular, pro-freedom of speech, pro-free trade, pro-immigration, pro-equality (true equality, not affirmative action and distributed racism) left.

    This party is on the rise. Some are coming at it from their abandoment of faith and religion and some are coming at it from the realization that statism doesn’t work, but they are converging. The media often touts the rise of a Christian Right, but this is a small minority of the right as a whole. Many on the right are much more concerened with liberty and defense and limiting statism. The secular right is the main reason why Bush won in 2004 and why conservatism is on the rise.

    That said, the left is continuing to fight the important social battles by keeping abortion legal, lowering the irrational hurdles in our laws that prevent civil unions, and opposing such obvious religious fanatacism such as what we saw with Congress during the Schiavo case and the Republican judicial witch hunt.

    Sorry to burst your bubble Goldy but you’re not wicked and evil, your just too far to the left fiscally and much too statist. But sensationalism sells, so maybe you just snipe away for the sake of your blog readership.

  37. 40

    Alan spews:

    Jeff B. @ 39

    Here we go again, spouting bullshit. How many wars have liberals started? How many people have liberals burned at the stake? How many Irelands are liberals responsible for? Wingnuts just love to impute the behavior of their own kind to liberals. How about if conservatives demand a little personal responsibility of the fuckups running our government, instead of re-electing them?

  38. 41

    CynicalSucks spews:

    Karl Rove, Jeff B. knows better than you. Those 4 million evangelicals who didn’t vote in 2000, the very same that you worked on since the very day your candidate was selected didn’t matter worth poop.

    Jeff B. says they’re a “minority”. He know better than you.

  39. 42

    zip spews:

    Alan 33

    “The “prevailing wage” IS market based.”

    Spoken like a true believer who has no clue what he is talking about. Don, you have finally out done yourself.

  40. 43

    dj spews:

    zip @ 42

    You criticize, but please elaborate. You have taken a course in labor economics, haven’t you?

  41. 44

    zip spews:

    I’ve paid bills from subcontractors that are marked up to prevailing wage. And others that were not. It’s obvious that prevailing wage is higher than market price. Unless your definition of market price is “guvmint work”.

  42. 45

    dj spews:

    zip @ 44

    So, I am getting the feeling that you don’t even really understand the point being made at 33.

    Oh, and zip, be careful about extrapolating from your personal experiences—you might just be easy prey for those subcontractors.

  43. 46

    zip spews:

    dj

    If you weren’t so pompous you might actually learn something. Do an experiment. Go to the prevailing wage tables and compare them to the actual wages paid to skilled labor across the state. Then report back on what you learned.

  44. 47

    Alan spews:

    zip @ 44

    Prevailing wage is indeed higher than what the tract homebuilder who lives on my street pays his Vietnamese, Laotion, and Mexican laborers — $7.50 an hour, I think they get.

  45. 48

    zip spews:

    So according to you, they are paid BELOW the “market rate”? Don, how can you possibly make that claim if you have not studied labor economics as dj has? (Probably at Vassar.) If you are correct that prevailing wage (as mandated by our state govt. in pages and pages of constantly revised tables) equals the “market rate” then why do the unions fight so hard to retain it?

  46. 49

    dj spews:

    zip @ 48

    “So according to you, they are paid BELOW the “market rate”?”

    They are two different markets, dip shit. Oops. . . sorry, that was pompous.

    “…then why do the unions fight so hard to retain it?”

    Because they get more money that way?

  47. 50

    zip spews:

    ds, oops dj, no on second thought, ds

    Lighten up dude. You missed some humor on that one to Don. I didn’t actually think you were smart enough to get into Vassar.

    The problem here is the “more money” is public money. Which means we overpay for public construction.

  48. 51

    prr spews:

    I am curious…

    with the left is bitching & moaning constantly about sepration of chuch and state, Our legislation has recently re-named King County in honor of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who is in fact a religious figure.

    What I find distressing is the complete silence about this on this board,

  49. 52

    dj spews:

    prr @ 51

    I did answer your question the last time you asked. I said that Dr. King was not being honored for this theology or preaching ability. He was being honored for his civil rights activism. His activism positively changed the (secular) world for the better.

    In the same way, Darwin is honored in many ways in the world of science for his contributions to science, and not because he was a cleric.

  50. 53

    prr spews:

    Dj…

    You’ll have to clarify where I asked this before as I am unaware of asking this question more than once.

    Agreed Dr. King should be recognized for his great works, However, the inspiration for these works is based on his religious beliefs as were his speeches, actions, etc… The man was first and foremost a Rev.

    Considering the liberal pattern of villifying all things that are religious when applied to a public area. This most recent bill is the height of hypocracy.

    Or are their underlying, unspoken issues at hand? Is this actually public sanctioned white guilt by our legislators?

    You can’t have your cake and it it too.

  51. 54

    dj spews:

    prr @ 53

    “You’ll have to clarify where I asked this before as I am unaware of asking this question more than once.”

    I apologize to you, prr. My mistake. It was zip who asked before, and I failed to find the thread:

    http://www.horsesass.org/my-co.....ment-24898

    “Agreed Dr. King should be recognized for his great works, However, the inspiration for these works is based on his religious beliefs as were his speeches, actions, etc… The man was first and foremost a Rev.”

    You mean he should be penalized for being a minister? I think the “liberal position” would be that the government should not discriminate against Dr. King for the source of his inspiration. He catalyzed great change in America and the personal inspiration motivating him isn’t relevant to recognizing that (let alone dinging him for it).

  52. 55

    prr spews:

    I am not arguing that nor am I arguing re-writing hisory and naming the county after him.

    What I am saying is that there has been a very hard stance by the left to force feed their own religious beliefes down everyones throat in the recent past. To be precise, that all connections of church and state be abolshed in this country.

    If we are not supposed to say God in any part of Government speak, have prayer removed from schools, cannot say Christmas and rename Christmas trees to “Giving Trees”, outlaw Halloween so as to not offend wiccans.

    Naming a county after a minister should be off limits or if it is approporiate, drop all the God hating Bullshit that the left has been so aggressive about.

  53. 56

    dj spews:

    prr @ 55

    “What I am saying is that there has been a very hard stance by the left to force feed their own religious beliefes down everyones throat in the recent past. To be precise, that all connections of church and state be abolshed in this country.”

    Your two sentences are inconsistent. The “left” is in no way trying to force religion down anyone’s throat. Just the opposite, they are:

    (1) Asserting everyone’s right to practice whatever religion they want (or not practice religion). This means ANY religion.

    (2) Trying to avoid any possibility of the government interfering with that right. The government does not get to perform religious functions or engage in displays of religion because it can be coercive in favoring that religion over others.

    ”Naming a county after a minister should be off limits. . . .”

    Naming a county after a minister because he or she was a good Christian, good preacher, or had an influential theology should be off limits. Naming a county after a great civil rights leader, a great scientist, a great politician, a great historian, etc. is appropriate even if they happened to be a minister as well.

  54. 57

    zip spews:

    dj @ 56

    You’re wrong. The left is actually taking a stridently ANTI-religion tone these days, not “Asserting everyone’s right to practice whatever religion they want (or not practice religion).” My opinion is that the anti-religous rants we read from Goldy, other posters, and elsewhere are examples of how sheep-like many of the left are. In a few years or maybe a decade, the left will have a new cause and will march in lockstep to it. As they now are marching in lockstep against religion and especially religous people.

  55. 58

    AllHatAndNoHorse spews:

    So, the lack of any religious group in particular, will actually turn into an organized group religion?
    WOW!
    Twilight Zone, Man!
    Ive yet to see sheep, split into special interest groups, as you suggest, they seem more like the one billion strong, marching in unison, oblivious, and less concerned, as to where the wolf may be camped.

  56. 59

    dj spews:

    zip @ 57

    I believe you are responding to the left’s reaction against politics driven by a fundamentalist Christian agenda. That is not about hating fundamentalists or their religion. It is about not wanting a particular world view imposed on us through political institutions. Another way to view it is as perfectly good religion corrupted by politicians, and that religion abused as a tool for pushing a political agenda. It is shameful on the part of the politicians.

  57. 60

    zip spews:

    dj

    The anti-fundamentalists feelings are now spilling over into anti- a lot more. A good example was the reaction to the overdone press after the Pope’s death. Most clear thinkers agreed that the press went overboard, but the left wing blogs used this as another reason to vent about Catholics and the “Theocracy”. I believe the sentiment is being whipped up in a calculated manner. I suggest you look at some of the “Progressive” sites to gauge the depth of the current left anti-religion sentiment. If I find the time, I will attempt to find some examples.

  58. 61

    dj spews:

    zip @ 60

    The press definitely did go overboard. I remember seeing a Google news item with the headline “35,000 Stories on Pope After Death”. Apparently this was 10 times the number of stories that ran about Bush’s re-election!

    In any case, there was Pope bashing from the Right and Left. There was even some rather tasteless stuff on HA by our own conservative Chuck:

    http://www.horsesass.org/my-co.....ment-20082
    http://www.horsesass.org/my-co.....ment-20100
    http://www.horsesass.org/my-co.....ment-20154

    Both parties in the Nov election had substantial numbers of supporters among people claiming a religious affiliation, so sweeping rules about religous hatred are not supported.
    There will always be religious bigots, but they are not confined to any particular party or side of the political spectrum. For example, anti-Cathlolic sentiments can be frequently found among fundamentalist.