One of the great things about being a blogger — as opposed to being a real journalist — is that when I see a political operative unloading a stinking pile of bullshit on the public, I not only get to call it what is… I get to scoop it up and fling it right back in their face. For example, this morning I’m aiming my manure laden shovel directly at the lying piehole of I-912 spokesman Brett Bader.
As reported today in the Seattle P-I, Bader is complaining about WSDOT signs at road projects around the state, proclaiming “It’s Your Nickel, Watch It Work.” These are projects financed by the 5 cent gas tax hike passed in 2003, a fact that Bader would prefer motorists not know, arguing that it “violates the use of public funds for a political campaign.”
Uh-huh. Bader also objects to WSDOT providing detailed information about road projects on its website.
“Listing a bunch of pie-in-the-sky projects with no balance in the commentary is clearly a statement in favor of the tax and opposition of I-912.”
Hey Brett… eat me.
How many times have we heard Bader spew his lying bullshit about I-912 being about accountability and priorities… that WSDOT needs to prove it can spend the nickel increase responsibly before voters give it more money? And yet, accountability is exactly the last thing Bader really wants, for he knows that if voters understood exactly what their gas tax money was being spent on, and how many of these projects are coming in on time and under budget, I-912 would fail at the polls.
What Bader objects to is the public actually being told the truth.
State Transportation Secretary Doug MacDonald chuckled at the apparent irony he said he saw in Bader’s protests.
“We are supposed to be accountable to the public and tell them what is happening to their dollars, but we are not supposed to spend the cost of a sheet of plywood to put up a sign saying this is the project that the money is building — go figure,” MacDonald said.
He said there is an entire campaign based on the notion that “WashDOT is not accountable, nobody knows where the money goes and it’s probably all wasted and they don’t tell us what they are doing with the money.”
How far is Bader willing to go with his bullshit argument?
Bader, the I-912 spokesman, said MacDonald himself has “crossed the line repeatedly,” Bader said. “He’s debated me twice on KIRO radio.”
Our Democracy is crumbling! The State Transportation Secretary actually went on the radio to explain how his department spends its money!
Eat me, Brett.
When Bader objects to the signs, the website and the radio appearances, what he really objects to is the truth. Instead, he’d rather voters make up their minds based on bullshit slogans, misleading myths and cynically fomented resentment towards all things government. The I-912 campaign is about a lot of things, but clearly, an informed debate over transportation policy, priorities and accountability ain’t one of them.
Just out of idle curiosity, who pays for the signs that say, “It’s your nickel, watch it work”? Did I miss it in your commentary? I don’t read so well with these glasses.
Libertarian @1,
Cut the snide crap. You know who pays for it, and if you follow the link to the article that’s made clear.
What… you’ve never seen a road construction project with a sign on it explaining who’s building it? This is something new? And do you object to WSDOT letting taxpayers know how their money is spent?
Get real.
Doesn’t matter..it’ll pass. Voters always choose “pay less tax” regardless of the consequences or outcomes.
Another yawn…
Doug McDonald also out-of-hand dismisses retrofitting the Alaska Way Viaduct. It is a viable solution, but doesn’t cost enough, and isn’t pretty enough. If reasonable solutions like retrofit were proposed, we wouldn’t need I-912.
Janet: No offense…
But tell the hundreds of other projects that will lose funding if I-912 passes that we ‘don’t need it’.
Another example of the proponents’ fear of the truth is right here. Their overwhelming preponderance of focus on 520 and the AWV, as if they’re the only projects effected.
Do some research, they’re not.
Hello 011. State your problem please.
Stop the presses – hell has frozen over – I agree with Janet S.
Goldy @ 2:
Actually, I never really gave it much thought. So, I suppose we all pay for the signs?
Goldy;
What about monday Seattle times; engineers proposing a $200mm fix to viaduct….
Don’t liberals wanna save money?
$120,000 for 39 sites, is >$3000 per sign/site
Wow, i’d do it for 1/2 that!
Righton, say it ain’t so; from the Seattle Times. Sorry I am in Colorado Springs, looking at the Winter Wonderland this week. Snow is cool!
Speaking of FEMA, Brownie…
What possible experience does Douggie McDonald have on building roads?
a nine-year tenure as Executive Director of the Massachusetts Water Resource Authority (MWRA) where he provided leadership for the large capital investment program and for operating improvements to achieve higher quality of drinking water, for wastewater treatment and for public sector business efficiencies.
Goldy—
So how many miles could be paved if WSDOT didn’t print all of those PR signs???
Inquiring minds would like to know?
And while we are at it….let’s take a DETAILED look into the OVERHEAD and discretionary WSDOT spending that fails to relieve congestion.
I heard Brian Sonntag and his brother Dick on Mike Segal’s show yesterday. Sonntag was thrilled with I-900 and the implications of looking IN-DEPTH into the Bowels of WSDOT and other agencies, local governments etc. that have for too long, avoided the intense scrutiny of a real, unbridled performance audit.
I’m voting YES on I-912 because of my concerns about clear accountability and the funding/scope of the proposed work (I feel a lot of it is UNDERFUNDED).
However, I will keep an open mind in the future once an unbridled, unobstructed performance audit is done clearly holding WSDOT accountable for past dollars spent AND the adequacy of proposed budgets for future projects.
JanetS–
I also heard McDonald dismiss retro-fitting after admitting HE has no engineering experience but is relying on HIS experts. This is the problem. It is important for McDonald to lcearly lay out WHO the experts are he is relying on, making there data he is specifically relying on easily accesible to the public and clearly disclose past and future relationships (contracts) of his EXPERTS. In other words, do these consultants have anything to gain by recommending a certain project proceed?
FULL DISCLOSURE of McDonald’s consultants.
These are the things that government MUST do in order to gain any public confidence.
FUCKING EXPENSIVE SIGNS won’t git it done!!!
I love how you guys beg for more information then bitch when you get it. More proof that its not about helping the state, its about Hurting the Democrats, and damn the consequences!
Puddybud and any lib w/ a brain..snip from Monday Sea Times…
Victor Gray, a retired structural engineer who lives in Port Townsend, says the state could save a lot of money by fixing the structure rather than replacing it. The cost of those repairs, he says, could be as little as $200 million to $300 million.
“The problem we have is that the state has already made its mind up and won’t think of anything else,” Gray said. “I can’t see the city and state spending 4 billion taxpayer dollars when the solution is $200 [million] to $300 million. We’re not about to go away.”
On their own, Gray and his associate, engineer Neil Twelker, prepared a report on how they think the viaduct could be repaired to extend its life for an additional 30 years. They’ve given their proposals to the Seattle City Council, the state Department of Transportation and legislators.
wow cynical actually asked a policy question! (Well sorta, its a rhetorical question masking more hate… but still!)
I feel it is my duty to answer it.
(The following is from Dave Ross’ DOT QA, http://www.710kiro.com/dotquestions.jsp everyone should read that!)
Lane-mile breakdown examples with my ‘the signs would have paved…’ calculations (calculations = cost per lane-mile / $120000 ie the cost of the signs noted above)
SR 18 widening in rural King County – about $24.5 million per mile. (the signs = 26 feet)
US 12 widening south of Tri Cities – about $3.7 million per mile. (the signs = 158 feet)
I-5 widening in Vancouver – about $20.2 million per mile. (the signs = 32 feet)
I-90 truck climbing lanes east of Cle Elum and at Vantage – about $1 million per mile. (the signs = 633 feet)
I-5 HOV lanes from Tukwila to Fife – about $7 million per mile. (the signs = 89 feet)
So in urban areas, those signs at most could pave a few hundred feet… Substantially less in the I-5 Corridor. Hope that helps!
so the talking point of the day: “Ignore everything else, focus on the AWV!”
Did somebody say “go wildly off topic”? Ok!
“Sims says no to Southwest, Alaska plans to move to Boeing Field
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
SEATTLE — King County Executive Ron Sims on Tuesday rejected Southwest and Alaska airlines’ plans to begin flying passenger jets out of Boeing Field.
So, can somebody answer me what changed in a week since Sims’ appearance at Drinking Liberally and his strong defense of the Southwest deal, as Goldy described it?
re#17
I also did a mile/foot conversion. ’26 feet’ means so much more to people than ‘approximately .005 miles’
@19
At least you’re honest about trying to dodge the issues there, Jon. I’ll grant you that. We’re talking about I912 weaselry tho’
windie-15 ‘I love how you guys beg for more information then bitch when you get it.’
If a few signs touting the scope of a few projects is accountability then we have a communication problem.
windie @ 21: Hey, I’m voting against 912, so I’m in agreement with you. I’m trying to prod Goldy into a post or somebody who attended the DL event last week into a comment, and Friday is a ways away…..
windie—@17
Thank you for your response. It was revealing in disclosing per mile cost and that $120,000 matters very little.
However windie…how about the rest of the WSDOT overhead & $$$ that go to overhead and other “signs” or “sign-like” expenditures??
I know you feel $120,000 is peanuts and immaterial. But perhaps that is part of the bureaucratic cultural problem….a disconnect with spending every single dime like it was your own money.
If you get enough $120,000 or $250,000 or $60 million(Hood Canal Graving Yard debacle in Pt. Angeles) wasteful spending…pretty soon you are talking about REAL money.
By the way, I still have seen no one FIRED because of the Graving Yard $60 million WSDOT boondoggle, have you??? Perhaps they can drum up a dead employee…or dead voter to assign blame to!!!
Sims said he was studying the proposals by Southwest and Alaska, not that he’d approved them in any way whatsoever. He wanted to hear them out, in case they could make a convincing case for the move. Apparently, they couldn’t.
Though I don’t think he said it in so many words, right from the start he clearly thought Alaska’s “me too” was just showboating, since they and Horizon use SEA as a hub and Boeing Field can’t carry enough traffic for that. As for Southwest, I suspect their enthusiastic releases and/or leaks allowed the Seattle press to imply that the County had agreed to Southwest’s plans rather than simply hear them out.
That Sims didn’t correct that impression is a misstep by his office, I believe. If, after considering the offer, he articulates the reasons for rejecting it, then the anti-Sims folks will still call him a flip-flopper, but I’d call the episode an example of openness in governmental process.
Jon—
That was a pretty good BURN towards Goldycocks about the Don Ron Sims King aboutface on the Southwest Airlines issue. It’s hysterical….and shows what a lowlife Sims is. Sims must have stuck his finger in the air and said oops…better turn around.
The question now is WHO WOULD TRUST SIMS???
He says one thing one day and spills his beliefs on you LEFTIST PINHEADS while you are all getting all liquored up……..
and now he is against it.
What will it be tomorrow Goldy???
Sims will say and do anything to get re-elected.
Irons has Sims in a highly defensive posture.
Sims is vulnerable.
If I lived in that Boing Field area, Sims about face would not convince me to vote for him. I wouldn’t trust Sims.
Did I also mention that:
If Don Ron Sims King Wins=====Logan Keeps his job.
If Don Ron Sims King Loses====Logan gets fired!!
If David Irons wins===========Logan gets fired.
Ahhhhhhhhh…but Logan counts the ballots.
So……who will Logan favor???
Huge conflict of interest.
yeah … let’s get rid of the damn signs.
And while we are at it, lets get rid of all those “slow down, my mommy works here” signs, too. I mean, turnover is good, isn’t it? We don’t want people with too much seniority–it just costs too much to pay ’em. A little extra “turnover” will keep construction costs down and add many extra “feet of concrete” to each project.
912 by 15. All your lies are just going to make it worse. So keep it up.
Nin—
Sims had huge conflicts of interest on this SWA and read the polls that said if he didn’t flip=flop, he could lose!
Sims will say and do anything to get re-elected.
Bad try der SCHPINMEISTER or is it SP-NIN-MESITER???==NO SALE!
Mr. Cynical @ 24
“By the way, I still have seen no one FIRED because of the Graving Yard $60 million WSDOT boondoggle, have you??? “
But, then again, you have still not divulged the “web site” that supposedly documented the existance of a massive Native American grave yard under the proposed site. (Also, should the DOT have professional web surfers looking for that kind of thing?)
@5
Retrofitting AWV is viable? True to form, Janet, you really are as stupid as you look! Apart from the fact the viaduct itself is crumbling (how do you brace concrete that’s turning to sand?), the soil the viaduct sits on is unstable and the seawall that holds that soil in place is crumbling, so how the hell do you retrofit the shifting soil that someday will no longer hold up the viaduct? You are truly a dummy, Janet. Let me guess, whatever your degree (if you have one) is in, it’s not civil engineering. Yet you think you know more about bridge design than the professionals? Dumb, dumb, dumb … hey, are you blonde?
@22
The signs are for people who are too busy (or too lazy) to attend public hearings or read the WSDOT web site — ooops, those cost money too, so we’ll have to do away with public hearings and the WSDOT web site … you can read about highway projects in the papers — ooops, public information officers cost money too, so we’ll have to do away with WSDOT press release or information packets for the media — what the hell, the public doesn’t need to know anything, just build it and they’ll come.
Bader is an idiot. So are the trolls on this board. Keep it up, children! Never has it been so clear that I-912 is nothing more than frothy partisan foaming at the mouth. Just keep bitching about the plywood “Your Nickel at Work” signs so the voters will figure out you’re all crazy. I love it!!!
Maybe if the WSDOT were fiscaly resonsible, taxpayer’s would have more faith. That, and the DOT workers are overpaid to begin with. Give me a fucking break. The WSDOT is a cash cow that needs to lose some weight.
@33
There are limits to what fiscal responsibility can achieve. All the fiscal responsibility in the world can’t change a pumpkin into a Porsche, or change a righty troll into a reasonable person capable of engaging in responsible discourse.
I took State (my)representative Lynn Kessler’s quote in a letter to me that said they’ve estimated 5 million vehicles on the road in Washington everyday. (I think that’s conservative.) I used a multiplier of just three gallons per vehicle (average) for daily gas consumption and came up with 15 million gallons providing 28.5 cents tax revenue per gallon.
Bear in mind that we’ve been charged 31.5 cents per gallon since July 1. But, I’m using he old number to come up with a total of $4,275,000.00 in tax revenue per day.
I think that comes to $128,250,000 per month or $1,539,000,000 (one Billion, five hundred thirty nine million per year).
This alone seems to show a huge discrepancy in funds collected and dollars spent, as you will see. But, it’s only the beginning. Last week in her speech denouncing I-912, Maria Cantwell said, “If the initiative is successful in repealing the tax increase we will lose the matching funds that come from the federal government.”
MATCHING FUNDS?
In the document from WADOT the numbers on page two are used by the state to give itself credit for bringing in highway projects on time and below budget by citing (in line two highlighted in gray) annual expenditures from 2002 – 2005. Those 4 years totaled come to $1,178,679,514 for completed projects, or just a shade above the tax revenues collected in one single year using my estimates.
When I saw this I couldn’t begin to estimate the huge cash account that must be accumulating with $6 billion in revenues sitting in the bank somewhere and only $1.178 billion being spent. So, I thought I must be over estimating tax revenues and for the sake of applying all fairness, I cut the vehicle number given to me by Rep. Kessler in half. But, that still comes to over THREE BILLION over four years collected with only slightly more than half accounted for.
That in itself is hard to reconcile. But wait, there’s more – as they say on the infomercials. What about Cantwell’s statement that the fed matches the funds? That would compound the problem, wouldn’t it?
I had been wondering about how this could be explained one day when I heard a guest on the radio who was against I- 912 talking about how badly the state needs the revenue from the increased tax. I think he was either connected with the state legislature or ‘Keep Washington Rolling’. I called to ask him about my estimates and got through. While I was on hold, I was looking at the WADOT Gray Sheet Report hyperlinked below. I scrolled down to page 5 and was looking at the projects they claim to have completed in a program called the ‘nickel projects’. I assumed these to have come from the last $.05 increase that I learned was created by the legislature in ’01 –’03.
While I was looking at this chart (pg 5) I was adding numbers in my head to see how much the nickel tax produced compared to the $40.7 million in the projects they detailed. When I finally got on, I was told that there was only one minute left. Since I didn’t have time to go through my whole set up about Lynn Kessler’s letter, I stumbled through a question about the numbers on page 5 and said my quick tally came up with over $900 million in nickels collected, while the chart shows $40,726 and at the top it says, “dollars in thousands” which comes to $40,726,000 so, it looks like it’s off by quite a bit. His (the guest) reply was that the explanation at the top of the chart was probably meant to say, “Dollars in MILLIONS”.
Was he admitting that even the people putting out the numbers and talking up the budget don’t understand what they are talking about? (…or worse)
Either way, I think someone has a lot of explaining to do.
And by the way, I’ve heard estimates as high as 6.5 million vehicles on the road because of interstate trucks which don’t show up in our licensing records, but do buy fuel here. I also have to assume that across the board fuel consumption per vehicle is considerably above 3 gallons per day. Use any figures you like. But, scroll through the exhibits provided by the state and see if you can provide an adequate explanation of where our money has gone.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Accoun.....k/lite.pdf
Roger; who pays $3,000 per sign? You say its simple plywood…man they must be using Mahogony…
It’s the x-treme righty “Prayer Breakfast Mafia”!! They’re at it again!
Righton @35–
$3000/sign….Is that true?
40 signs, that say exactly the same thing, cost $120,000???
Who was hired to make the signs?
Were they bid…or just handed out with no bid????
I think the signs may be reflective of a much deeper problem.
Let’s get to the bottom of the signs….
Who’s idea???
How much was spent on the firm hired to come up with these ideas??
How much was spent delivering & putting up the signs?
What does this have to do with fixing the transportation problem?
How many other “Sign-like” ventures are buried in the WSDOT budget??
Let’s look at WSDOT travel & entertainment, seminars etc….all the staff overhead.
I can’t wait for Sonntag to have free-reign on this one!
@35
Have you checked out the price of plywood recently? Thanks to the Bush Inflation.
If the Air Force can pay Boeing $5,000 for a toilet seat, I don’t see why WSDOT can’t pay $3,000 for a sign. That’s a saving of $2,000 per sign for the taxpayer.
I find it interesting that trolls who voted for an administration that buys Coca-Cola from Halliburton for $100 per case is bitching about the cost of highway signs.
$4.25 for a can of pop is OK when Republicans do it, but $3,000 for a sign isn’t okay when Democrats do it. Hell, even if the signs were free, they would bitch about the cost of the signs!
I bought signs once, about 100 locations. I think about $300 per, installed, etc.
Funny how that 10:1 ratio is just like the $200mm to retrofit to the $2.2 billion WSDOT wants…
Wonder if we could change 912, and just give them 10% of what they want…
The complaint about the signs seems a little on the strange side by the folks who want I-912. I live in Skagit county and the state is almost finished replacing the 2nd Street bridge in Mount Vernon and they had a sign up about 5 cents for the past 2 years since they started the bridge project. I never heard a complaint about these signs until today. Why wasn’t the complaint lodged then.
When I was lived in Iowa 25 years ago when a project was started the sign went up which was similar and it stated “Your tax dollars at work” and it gave a short explaination and the total cost of the project, so this dude doesn’t want you to know about the project and the cost and what it is intended to do. I think it is great that we are informed of the project and can see the work in progress.
There seems no end in the misinformation that this guy will actually go to to make sure that I-912 will win (I don’t think he has anything to worry about as I think I-912 will win, to bad)
They got to be able to get the word out. Bad enough that they got a talk show host on KIRO to bait Doug MacDonald to talk about the initaitive on the air. Dori Monson awhile back was talking to the Transportation Secretary, and then got Bret Bader to call in, and got on the secretary for ducking the I-912 issue. The law is clear, Governement Employees cannot speak out against or for an initiative. Metro employees were accused of push-polling for the No on I-695 when they were holding workshops and and taking surveys asking about possible service cuts and fare increases in late-1999. I recently found out that Metro service revisions often take 18 months to plan, because they first hold workshops to hear what the Public wants, then they come up with proposals and go back to the Public with a preliminary plan, and then after comment make revisions and show the final plan, with more public input, then it goes to the Metropolitan King County Council Regional Transit Committee, and then on to the full council. They could not have crammed all of that into just 4 months.
Still wondering when WSDOT will replace the water/lawyer guy mcdonald w/ a real transportation guy?
Lot of discussion about expensive signage – claims that are unsourced. Righties: hyperlink is your friend if you want credibility.
Clueless; its in all the newspapers…today…times, PI. $120,000 across 39 sites. Your only arguement might be each site needs 10 signs..
And the $120,000 i’ll bet doesn’t include allocation of normal overhead…
righton@48
now that last bit IS random speculation, and probably untrue. The artical basicly says ‘total cost’.
Quit makin’ crap up :p
righton, how many signs per site? one per mile along all of 405 (as an example — I am making that up) is a lot of fucking signs.
baynative, how did you arrive at 3 gallons per day?
righton (wrong as always):
And the $120,000 i’ll bet doesn’t include allocation of normal overhead…
My bet is that it covers the cost of materials, design, preparation, transportation, and construction of the signs. Including the labor costs. Probably there’s even a portion already costed out (and included in the above total) for their removal and transportation back into storage or recycling, as well as depreciation and more.
I don’t do any budgeting at my company or in the nonprofit where I sit on the Board of Directors, but I’ve seen plenty of budgetary breakdowns that go into that level of detail and comprehensiveness.
Just curious…where are the signs on the phantom monorail and bloated Sounder saying “your tax dollars being pissed away”?
What’s really bullshit is government patting itself on the back with tax $$ that should be spent on roads.
Goldy is likely jealous that Bader has actually achieved electoral victories and is taken seriously in the media as opposed to merely ranting into an echo chamber.
N, etc. Forget the OH…it can’t be that much, just use $120k.
I wonder if any Seattle politicos who surf here could tell us what they pay for those boring but helpful DCLU signs that they post on change of use to real property…i’ll bet also in the $300 range…
I commute about 100 miles a day (50 miles each way) by way of I-5. This means I spend about $8000 – $9000 a year (on gas) just driving back and forth to work. So if I have to pay extra money in the future from what I am paying right now, then so be it. I would like safe roads to drive on, and since every project that I know of that WSDOT has funded (my taxes included) to improve the roads has finished early and under budget I really have no problem paying the taxes. Luckily, I have just switched to publich transporation (which helps me financially and mentally). But if you feel you do not want to pay for better roads, then start walking.
Why are the people who shout the biggest for “User Fees”, i.e. people who use the projects bitch the most when the User Fees affect them? I.E. I can’t tell you how many times I heard about the monorail tax not affecting people that would use it, i.e. people who don’t have cars, but yet here is a tax that affects people that buy gas for driving, not a general increase, and all I hear is that same NIMBY bullshit over and over. “User Fees” – except when they apply to me.
How much for Gary’s ever-so-cute “Litter and It Will Hurt” signs?
And, of course THOSE beg the question, ‘what clever little gimmick will the illegitmate queen come up with to pretend she’s working between her vacation trips….er, trade missions?… Maybe she’ll cutely designate some tsunami safety zones!
Your tax dollars at work, folks.
DJ@30: Puddy the Internet Master has the links for the $60 MILLION. I realize Cynical told you to carry your won water but I am a nice guy! http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....es21m.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ha12m.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ves09.html
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projec.....ridgeeast/
http://64.233.167.104/search?q.....#038;hl=en
DJ look for the links when Goldy approves it.
DustinJames-55 “User Fees” – except when they apply to me.
No. User fees are fine when they are reasonable, and the user does not feel the cost is 2X or 3X what it could be.
Bill @ 50 I took the AAA use average of 15,000 miles per year and the used carmedian of 45,000 miles on a three year old car. But, of course the figure as an average is probably low when you figure in all the fedX, UPS, contractors, and delivery trucks, vans and cars that run all day.
Rather than raise the use estimate, what if we figured the average is only ONE Gallon a day? The state would still have a lot of explaining to do to show where the money is going.
They aren’t spending gas tax funds on highways- plain and simple.
baynative@59
you’re making stuff up.
You can’t just make an accusation like that with no evidence at all (well you could, but that would be wrong). Trying to build a case for waste (probably technically fraud, given what the laws say about this income) out of pure theoretical math is tricky at best, dishonest at worst, and either way, a bad idea.
Windie, ok you want us to go weigh each ounce of material, build up costs from the bottom?
Maybe you could go find those etched titanium signs they are erecting..
Baynative-59 ‘They aren’t spending gas tax funds on highways- plain and simple.’
Seems to me that a rather large chunk of the gas taxes are used for ferries. That has always been an irritant to the 99% of residents who never set foot on one. Not to mention how many of the ferry riders are getting to very posh residences.
I am not sure what the ferry amounts are, yet I think it was on the order of 30% plus.
62-correction
Sources show the ferries get most of their funds outside of the gas tax. The gas tax portion looks to be less that a penny per gallon.
@61
as you very well know, its about blanket allegations and accusations. You need at least SOME evidence.
I could make an argument that looks good to support just about anything… But it wouldn’t be meaningful…
righton@11
Not paying “prevailing wage” you cant!
You know there are a lot of seems supposes and maybes there. You sound like the welfare mom ahead of me at the grocery store who gets her reciept, adds it four times, watches the register go and still disputes how much she owes. Mostly based on, I feel it costs too much.
Just like redneck saying over and over he feels that DOT workers get paid too much, good luck finding someone to work cheaper. Too damn bad, the republican party has turned into a bunch of yahoos who feel all the damn time, come back with some real numbers instead of how you feel.
Have you actually looked at car values? If you had 45k miles on a 3 year old car good luck selling it. 15k miles per year is a ridiculous number.
righton, if you do not know how many signs per site any further mention of cost per sign is meaningless chatter.
I think Brett hasn’t gone far enough. The real propaganda is all of the construction going on:
http://www.transitsucks.com/di.....ofinsanity
Hey chuck who the hell are you planning on hiring for less than the going rate for construction workers? Did you really want to drive on a flyaway built by mcdonalds workers?
That is after all what the term prevailing wage means. Or did you come up with a new improved definition that the rest of us are not party too?
Bill;
I assume its 1 per. Otherwise they would have spun this in advance by supplying sign count.
Maybe they are big Samsung plasma screens….
bill-66 ‘Mostly based on, I feel it costs too much.’
No. There are many surveys that show the State pays much more than the private sector for equivalent jobs, especially when counting the benefits, etc.
‘..good luck finding someone to work cheaper.’
You must be kidding. The unions and State bureaucrats have made it too difficult for the average Joe to get in.
’15k miles per year is a ridiculous number.’
Ridiculously high or low?
bill@68
Let the economy be the wage guide, not the law. Most tradesmen in the private field get far more than “McDonalds” wages either by the market or union negotiation with company management, the prevailing wage law needs gutted.
Mr C @ 40
“Who was hired to make the signs?
Were they bid…or just handed out with no bid…”
ah… Once again the Jack Russle Terrier attacks the cuff of it’s master’s slacks.
What percentage of the overall costs were the signs? Who reads the signs? If the signs were never produced, would the world be a better place? Have the signs shortened the war in Iraq?
Let’s get on to some meaningful questions.
OK, then lets apply this same logic you and baynative between you have come up with to something else. The average person spends 20-80k on food each year (based on dividing the GDP by the population of computer users in Massacusetts and then extrapolating to the whole US). I will assume you spend 80k because thats how I feel. There is only one of you and youve not mentioned eating more than one hamburger this year, so why the hell did you spend 80k on a single hamburger. Are you an insane wastrel or what? See, thats what I mean by spending too much on prevailing wage, all of that cost must have gone to the waiter.
But, wait, its ok, because windie must have spent 85k on a single hamburger last week. And, and, and, Bill Clinton.
so there.
(unless youve more than an assumption your just chattering)
chuck, and who gets to decide how much to pay each worker. On a construction job the general contractor does. Do you really want to give that authority to local leads on each job? And you bitch now about waste? The reason its specified by law is that they used to do it the way you are suggesting. The result is worse corruption that anyone wants to think about.
Oh, and you’ve not done a lot of construction work, have you? FYI many construction job sites have one or two people getting full wage and the rest are temps getting minmum wage. If you own a new house, chances are most of it was done by mccdonald wage workers with one or two trained overseers. Thats what folks mean when they say substandard construction.
bill-68 ‘Hey chuck who the hell are you planning on hiring for less than the going rate for construction workers?’
I know I am nor Chuck. The “going rate” for construction workers is well below both what the Sate pays and the “prevailing wage”. And private companies, especially with financial incentives for finishing early, have been blowing away the State efficiency. This would even get better if the “prevailing wage” garbage was put where it belongs.
‘That is after all what the term prevailing wage means.’
No, that is what it is supposed to mean. These wages are determined using very narrowly focussed qualifying projects, and by the unions themselves. The “prevailing wage’ is much higher than any realistic average or true reading of wages.
‘Did you really want to drive on a flyaway built by mcdonalds workers?’
Not in general, although many of those workers have sufficent skills for laborer positions. It appears that you have bought into the union model, where if someone has been in the union for a long time they are better qualified than non-union folks. One of my main problems with unions is the senority thing – a new member who is a more skilled worker than a 20-year union guy must start at the bottom and go through the 4 years of apprectice training at reduced wages. The good workers want to get paid what they are worth, not based on how long they have been members.
“And private companies, especially with financial incentives for finishing early, have been blowing away the State efficiency”
Who told you that? There have been a few private companies that are coming in under DOT, but invariably the work has to be redone in half the normal time cause the work wasnt done right.
“The good workers want to get paid what they are worth, not based on how long they have been members.”
Thats really not true, you should say rather, the good workers want to get paid what they think they are worth which is not the same thing at all. Are you really suggesting that I set my own wage?
You’ve still not said who would get to decide how much DOT workers would get paid. What did you have in mind for determining what someone should get paid? I know, lets use the microsoft model and cert everyone, then your constrution team will work just like a know-nothing MCSE who managed to memorize a test. I will warn you though, you’re gonna end up paying twice as much since every yahoo on the planet will have a construction worker cert three days after you announce it.
Hang on now… DOT doesn’t build roads — it contracts with construction companies to have the work done according to DOT’s specs. Those specs, I presume, include provisions for worker safety and worker compensation (e.g. prevailing wage, etc.).
dj–
“Ancestors of the Lower Elwha Klallam tribe had resided on Ediz Hook in a village they called Tse-whit-zen. The tribe was removed from the site to reservations late in the nineteenth century pursuant to the 1855 Point No Point treaty.”
Doesn’t it stand to reason that if ancestors resided in a specific area, that there will likely be remains of ancestors somewhere in the vicinity????
Puddy @ 57,
Sorry, but your post was non-responsive. Mr. Cynical previously claimed that there was a web site documenting the fact that there was a massive Native American graveyard PRIOR to the dry dock project. He suggested that WSDOT should have known about that web site before spending any construction dollars. (Hence, calling for somebody at WSDOT to be fired for wasting money).
So far, Cynical has not chosen to share that URL with the rest of us.
righton @ 70
“I assume its 1 per. Otherwise they would have spun this in advance by supplying sign count.”
Really? So, you think DOT would put up a sign so that it is only seen by traffic in on direction of travel? Well, I would guess you are starting out with at least a 50% error. More likely, you are not counting labor of installing and removing signs, design and a myriad of other things that go into the final cost.
One again, your thinking is completely unencumbered by facts, analysis, and reality.
bill-77 ‘…the good workers want to get paid what they think they are worth..’
If a new worker has better skills and more experience than the others in the union I would say he/she is worth more than the higher paid long-timer. Again, the problem with unions is that hours in the union imply higher skills, as opposed to true skill level. There are very few unions that will allow a newbie to test out of the apprectice program, or move to a wage scale that fits experience and skills, if that puts them ahead of others who have waited in line or “done their time”.
‘Who told you that?’
Audits and local news stories regarding some bridge repairs and new conduit roads. The State has been able to afford lots of extra landscaping and sound walls due to the savings. And bridge closures for these unique incentive contracts have been reduced by days and even weeks.
‘..but invariably the work has to be redone in half the normal time cause the work wasnt done right.’
‘Who told you that?’ You have examples? All of the examples in my local area show just the opposite of what you say. And if we venture down to observe the Oregon road system – watch out.
Five minutes of research turned up this. On your side you can assure me that you have vague memories of a private company that did the work right. hmmm I guess that proves your point.
You know, given that MBA is in the hip pocket of the republican party and might be looking to get some of that road action, and, hey, its all emergency repair, we’ve all seen that republicans don’t bother with bids in an emergency, I am starting to really wonder who is behind all this ‘issues with DOT’ and behind 912.
So much BS. As pointed out, WSDOT does bid it’s work and takes the lowest responsive bid. Regarding their salaries, I am well familiar with both public and private salaries of Civil Engineers. WSDOT is not near the top. (The Port of Seattle is usuall the highest public.) Privates are higher than the State. I personally got quite a jump when I left long ago. Construction prices right now in the local market are driven by competition (again the POrt is taking up much of the trucking capacity for the 3rd runway) and by materials costs. China is driving steel and concrete costs through the roof.
I think it’s too expensive so it must be is a pretty stupid way to vote.
dj @ 80
Good point on the 50/50 thing. Rest is garbage.
I’ve actually bought signs in the hundreds, and the installed price was about 225 each, for 100+ signs, in the king, snoh, pierce county areas.
So unlike you, I actually know what i’m talkiing about.
Surely one of you guys actually works for WSDOT and tonight will prove me wrong by finding out its not 39 signs, but 390, making their cost more reasonable…. right?
DJ: I saw a letter from the Indians to the state stating that the WSDOT knew of the Indian city on the site before excavation. It’s on the Internet and you can easily find it.
dj 79
Are you seriously arguing that the PA Graving Dock fiasco was NOT a major screw up? The fact is that WSDOT was REQUIRED by law to investigate the site for cultural resources. They did a half assed job of it and cost us $60 million plus. They claim to be accountable but nobody has been held accountable for this to my knowledge.
bill 75
Prevailing wage rates are listed here:
http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLi.....efault.asp
Don’t forget all the adminstrative time required to enforce this relic of a rule left over from the New Deal.
Here’s some answers. The signs are an item in the construction contract (along with all the other signs for the project) and their cost is therefore set by and included in the low compeititive bid of the (private sector) construction contractor. WSDOT doesn’t fabricate or put up the signs. The contractor does.
The signs are metal, not plywood. Mea culpa. Plywood was in the old days when you had all those “Your Highway Taxes At Work. Richard J. Daley, Mauyor” signs. Sounds like signs that actually tell what’s going on are a step in the right direction.
Anybody who can’t figure out where the gas tax goes has to start with the allocation formula. Half of it goes to the cities and counties for their roads. The next slice goes to debt service for the bonds that built the roads you drove on today.
Retrofit the viaduct? From the people whose first plan was characterized by an independent panel of structural engineers as having a “fatal flaw” and containing oversimplified and too low costs? The names of the engineers that give real world advice are all a matter of public record. What I love about these debates is now they make real every day the underlying lessons of the Pied Piper of Hamlin. If you want to meet a Pied Piper, every project has one . . . Here the tune is “Retrofit the Viaduct.”
There’s a letter on the internet about how the Indians told WSDOT about the burials under the graving dock? I’m sure there is. That’s the problem with the internet. Sorting out the wheat from the . . . . . Maybe if anyone is really interested, we could get on the blog a link to the state’s legal answer in the court case.
Sure is nice to see everyone with so many interesting opinions!
doug–@87
Ahhhhhhhhh….again YOU misstate someone else’s comment….this time it’s the Pudster.
Puddy never said “the Indians told WSDOT about the burials under the graving dock”
What he said was there was a letter that the WSDOT knew of the Indian City on the Ediz Hook where the work site was designated. There were historical records about this village in that vicinity doug. It appears WSDOT choose to not investigate as deeply as they should have considering the history.
Doesn’t it stand to reason if there is a history of a village in a relatively small area like Ediz Hook, that there is also a burial ground in the vicinity???
Someone was sloppy in the scope of the investigation. Everyone was paid….and no one held accountable and fired.
This is representative of deeper problems…..and part of the disconnect between WSDOT and the public. We are talking about $60 million GONE here doug.
bill@75
My point is once the general contractor gets his bid accepted the state needs to stay out of his buisiness and let him pay his employees an amount of money agreed upon by them. And you are wrong about the pay in the construction trade, yes I have experience in the trade, I am presently working for a private contractor.
Bill….Spend 15 minutes watching the WSDOT fix a pothole. Count how many men it takes, and don’t waste too much time, cause it will take a WHOLE day to complete.
The Prevailing Wage has been around for ever, and Private Contractors normally bid these jobs, with the stipulation that they pay Prevailing wage (the job cost more, duh).
And, if you worked for a “private company” for say 20 years and you have the Opportunity to go to work for the DOT, you “THINK” that you should start out at “LOWEST” rank?
You should be paid on your Skill Level, not “when” you joined the company.
Just my .02
windie @ 61-
Do you have an answer for why the taxes already collected are easily in excess of the expenditures by as much as 2 or 3 to one and the legislature still wants more?
Mr. Cynical @ 88,
Come’on Cynical, you claimed the information was available on a web page for the world to see prior to the start of the construction. Did you just make that up, or what?
You seem to be claiming that WSDOT “just should have known” that there was a very large “contact epidemic” mass graveyard at the site? You’re kidding us, right?
Historical records???? Ummm … any citations for the “historical records” that provided the information?
Maybe if you told the entire truth, good and bads, and not just your selfish liberal half-assed truths in the name of King “we think we are the center of the fucking universe” County, maybe people would take you seriously Goldy. Sadly, the truth comes out, and people won’t. See ya Nov. 8 on this issue losers.
DJ @ 91
According to Court papers filed by the tribe, the WSDOT DID know that there were remains buried there, below 4′, on the upper graving dock digging area. As of Aug 15, 2005 the tribe is Sueing the State and It’s contractors. The moment they started digging, they found remains. That was in Aug of 2003, and 18 months later, they stop. This tribe appears poor, with little resources for studies of this magnitude. It also appears the DOT didn’t even know WHICH tribe to contact.
With all that said…..The WSDOT is suppose to made up of EXPERTS, with all the resources. This time it failed the Tribe, it’s ancestors, and the taxpayers of this state. Besides the 60 million lost (quoted above), we will now end up paying a much higher number in court, for all the pain and suffering the tribe has endured, by digging up, and disposing in a landfill there ancestors.
Before you go off on me, just think how you would feel if BIG BROTHER GOVERMENT, came to your local cemetary, and just started digging up your family….Not a fuzzy feeling.
baynative@90
What I mean is… You should have proof before you make accusations. Your whole argument (as bill put so well earlier, actually) is “It seems to me that they should be taking in… and they’re spending …” That doesn’t fly.
Its the same thing with Mr. Irrelevant and puddy’s ‘indian letter’. Saying “Its on the internet, look it up!” without linking it is really unconvincing. If its there, why don’t ya link it yourself? This argument is easy to win, if you just provide the evidence…
Windie @ 94
Here is the court document’s in regard to the indian graveyard issue.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....081205.pdf
thanks, Chris.
Thats just the Complaint (and thus, just half the story), but its something.
from reading that:
1) They knew there was a graveyard somewhere in the area.
2) The WSDOT archeologists came to the conclusion that it wasn’t where they were excavating.
3) The actual meat of the complaint isn’t that they ‘knew beforehand’, but rather that they’re not letting the remains be returned to the site.
as far as I can tell from that complaint, a lot of people knew there was a graveyard and village in the area, but nobody knew Exactly where, due to the fact that it had been buried under fill (if I read correctly, in order to build a sawmill). WSDOT (wrongly) decided that the cemetary proper wasn’t directly under the site.
Windie @ 96…
I read the entire Complaint, and did a bit more research, and by the DOT own admission (see link below), they knew they were digging up remains as early as Aug. 2003. As stated in complaint & newsletter (linked), they continued to dig.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdo.....ec2003.pdf
Just more reading material, but it does put a lil bit of teeth into the complaint of the indians.
DJ, I personally went looking and found those. The letter was way long and I knew Goldy’s filtering operations would hold it up. That letter stated that WSDOT did know back in 2003 a grave yard was there. Why do others need to carry your water? Can’t you Google some words and place the “+” sign in strategic locations? Typical lib.
So DJ: I now realize you are Internet hopeless. I will put the links there just for you. I put these words into Google: WSDOT finds Indian Grave Site. Google: Results 1 – 10 of about 474 for WSDOT finds Indian Grave Site +2003. (0.09 seconds) I realize a big-time college perfesser is busy these days so here you go.
THe letter is in this link: http://www.turtleisland.org/di.....php?p=5151
In one of the original links there was this paragraph. “After remains were initially discovered at the site in 2003, the tribe worked with the state to help the project continue, even deploying its own members to help dig out their ancestors for reburial. The tribe asked the state to keep looking for further remains so those would not be entombed by construction. But the state resisted.” – So I ask you DJ, did you really read the links or did you see them from Puddy and ignore like you claim you do? $60 Million later?
So here mr. history buff dj: http://www.historylink.org/ess.....le_id=7344 – direct from me to you!
puddy:
Thats what it says alright, but that’s not what Mr. Irr. was saying. He was saying that they knew well before they started.
Chris @ 96
“Before you go off on me, just think how you would feel if BIG BROTHER GOVERMENT, came to your local cemetary, and just started digging up your family….Not a fuzzy feeling. “
Ummm … Chris. BIG BROTHER GOVERNMENT has a federal law called NAGPRA (Naive American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act) that protects the remains. I strongly recommend that you actually learn about what happened at the site before spewing your bullshit.
DJ @ 104
Well from sources I posted above, and further reading since post’s this morning. I conclude, that the WDOT Did DIG UP remains. They stopped, then started again, and then didnt fulfill their obligation to the tribe.
If they had, why does the Tribe have a Class Action Lawsuit against them? Do people drum up a lawsuit that is full of Lies (especially about the goverment). I can’t quite buy that some if not all of the Lawsuit is truthful.
But remember, we already had 60 Million dumped into this project, what is a few bones and baskets? Typical Goverment Bullshit…..Who Me?…I didn’t do it…Not my Responsibilty.
zip @ 87
“Are you seriously arguing that the PA Graving Dock fiasco was NOT a major screw up? The fact is that WSDOT was REQUIRED by law to investigate the site for cultural resources. They did a half assed job of it and cost us $60 million plus. They claim to be accountable but nobody has been held accountable for this to my knowledge.”
I am not arguing for or against the proposition that it was a major screw-up, let alone whose screw-up. Put simply, nobody around here has given even a whisp of evidence of what failed.
One idea is that it was very bad luck. This site ended up being a huge graveyard (by North American Indian graveyard standards) and ended up being culturally almost unique in that it appears to be a contact epidemic “mass burial” site. Nobody could have anticipated (without digging) a site that is about as large as they come and so culturally unique.
I think the relevant question is why it was not discovered when test pits were dug during the planning stages. It may be that the private contractors who performed this work failed in their task or, perhaps, they were exceedingly unlucky—we would have to look at their reports and the subsequent archaeological mapping of the graves to distinguish between those two ideas.
I still await information that demonstrates that somebody—anybody—knew there was an on-site Indian graveyard prior to the start of construction.
Chris @ 105
Still refusing to actually learn something before you speculate, huh?
Windie @ 97
This link
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Accoun.....k/lite.pdf was used here by Goldy (I think) to praise WADOT for bringing in projects ahead of time and below budget.
About that same time I got a letter from my legsilative rep Lynn Kessler (WHO OWNS A PAVING COMPANY) telling me there are Five Million vehicles on the road every day.
I thought, “If every vehicle uses just one gallon, that’s $513 Million a year”. The numbers are way out of line. Common sense, the automobile club and used car sales data tells me the use is higher. The light rail folks say the average commute time is 55 minutes; at 40 mph that’s about 35 miles a day with no side trips. So a one gallon useage is unlikely.
But, regardless, I am simply asking why don’t you guys who like the “Question Authority” mantra wonder what the government does with the billions they are collecting when their own website only accounts for a fraction of that much?
DJ @ 106
Please enlighten me then SIR….You seem to have all the answers, so show me where you obtained all your knowledge. I enjoy a challenge, makes my day interesting, and if I learn something new in the process, it is win win situation.
Windie @ 97
RE: Where does the money go?
I just heard the Mayor’s aid, Mr.Choi(?) say that the proposed repair of the sea wall in Seattle will come from the funds Gregoire is telling us we need to fix roads.
I’m getting the picture, now.
Bay @ 108> and elsewhere.
First of all, we’re talking about a nickle a gallon of gas. I don’t know what calculator you used to compute a nickel per gallon per 5 million vehicles in order to get $513 million, but you should definitely trade it in for one that works. 5 million * $.05 works out to $250 thousand. Your calculator is off by at least an order of magnitude.
Second, the $43.5 million figure you cited from the Gray Note Book is for projects that have been completed as of June 30, 2005. That’s only 13 of the 39 awarded projects. According to that same report, the total cost of these awarded projects is $589 million.
So, your back-of-the-envelope calculation is way off, and you’ve failed to cite the full expenditure figure. Muck with numbers that badly, and you can reach any conclusion you want.
About that same time I got a letter from my legsilative rep Lynn Kessler (WHO OWNS A PAVING COMPANY) telling me there are Five Million vehicles on the road every day.
There are roughly 6.2 million people in this state. 4.38 million people in this state are over 18. You’re telling me that 80% of the population is driving every day, that every single person over the age of 18 is driving every day?
BS. Your numbers are garbage.
baynative: you’re TOTALLY missing my point.
Without actual numbers of income and expenditures (and I mean totals), how can you make these calculations? Now maybe you could make a case that that info should be available… But thats a different argument. You’re purposely choosing the worst interperetation.
Bax-111 ‘You’re telling me that 80% of the population is driving every day, that every single person over the age of 18 is driving every day?’
There are many extra vehicles from out-of-state or rentals by visitors as well. I also would not be surprised if almost all of the 16 years and older people do drive every day.
My bad. At 110, I forgot to include an appropriate time-span multiple, though I’d argue my error illustrates part of the problem with back-of-the-envelope calculations.
The point about completed vs awarded projects still holds.
Chris @ 108
“Please enlighten me then SIR….You seem to have all the answers, so show me where you obtained all your knowledge. I enjoy a challenge, makes my day interesting, and if I learn something new in the process, it is win win situation.”
When I start accusing state agencies or individuals of mismanagement (or worse) without real evidence, or by making unsupportable inferences, please feel free to call my bluff.
In the mean time, shut the fuck up until you can substantiate your claims.
Dj@ 116
Thank you for your reply. You are a true and blue Horses’
Ass.
I thought for certain you would at least let me know where/how I was misinformed. Even given me an example of my utter ignorance, but I see as you demonstrated, you can’t come up with ONE rebuttal supported by even ONE Link. I at least Linked my information, so you could see from what page I was drawing conclusions from.
Show some respect to other’s when they are trying to engage in a debate. Your age showed with your immature response and the “f” word.
“When I start accusing state agencies or individuals of mismanagement (or worse) without real evidence” are your words….Here is just one example of mismanaging: READ THE LINK before you attack me again PLEEEEEAAASSSSEEEE http://www.metrokc.gov/electio....._10_12.htm
A perfect example of mismanagement and blame shifting…..
Windie: From one of my links: “Private consultants who were hired before construction to evaluate the suitability of the site found nothing of historic or archaeological value.” When I reread that link I became CYNICAL. Who were these private contractors? Why didn’t any news organization ask why they missed this? Again the liberal MSM who should have been on the Poor Indian’s side failed them. Are you reading this Seattle Slimes and Puke-Indigestioner?
Chris, you are dealing with perfesser DJ. MTR accused him of bonging before blogging. Sometimes with his four+ letter expletives he maybe be bonging first. DJ are you a proponent of medical marijuana? Swearing is his nom de plume. Don’t take it personally. Is that called Tourettes Syndrome?
Tourette syndrome (TS) is an inherited, neurological disorder characterized by multiple involuntary movements and uncontrollable vocalizations (or blog entries) called tics that come and go over years. In a few cases, such tics can include inappropriate words and phrases (just about each blog entry).
People with Tourette Syndrome may involuntarily shout (write) obscenities (coprolalia) or constantly repeat the words of other people (echolalia) (sho nuff). They may touch other people excessively (he’s been trying to reach out and touch many of us) or repeat actions obsessively and unnecessarily. A few patients with severe Tourette Syndrome demonstrate self-harming behaviors such as lip and cheek biting and head banging against hard objects. – Please DJ not that head!
Chris @ 117
“Show some respect to other’s when they are trying to engage in a debate. Your age showed with your immature response and the “f” word.”
Fuck you, asshole. Obviously, you are new around here. So, get this straight. You are not the language police around here. This is Goldy’s blog, and Goldy has pointed out that the discussion is “edgy” ’round here.
If you don’t like it, haul your ass over to http://PuritansPrayingForBetterTastingSoap.org
“Here is just one example of mismanaging: READ THE LINK before you attack me again PLEEEEEAAASSSSEEEE http://www.metrokc.gov/electio....._10_12.htm
A perfect example of mismanagement and blame shifting…..”
Nope. That is not an example of mismanagement. That is an example of SOMETHING YOU DISAGREE WITH, you stupid shit.
It potentially is an example of blame shifting, but that would require actual documentation that (1) party A blamed party B for offence X, (2) Party B did not commit offense X, and (3) Party A did commit offence X. All you did was offer your opinion, you moron.
We need more taxes to fund union jobs and contacts with kickbacks to Democrat politicians. Lots of more taxes!! We need to tax the private sector until it……….well, until it leaves the state!!!! [hehe……Atlas has Shrugged]
dj 106
By “not arguing for or against the proposition that it was a major screw-up, let alone whose screw-up” you are imitating an ostrich. DOT selected, hired and approved the work plan of the consultant responsible for the research and test pits, did they not? DOT made the problem much worse by continuing to work after the initial discovery, did they not?
DOT was obliged to do a more thorough assessment of this site, AND to take things seriously when the first bones were found.
Writing this off as “bad luck” does not cut it on a screw up of this scale.
DJ: wrote “Fuck you, asshole. Obviously, you are new around here. So, get this straight. You are not the language police around here. This is Goldy’s blog, and Goldy has pointed out that the discussion is “edgy†’round here.
DJ, shame on you.. You are right, I am new around here, and if what you say is true about the owner allowing such comments to others, who are just trying to engage in a debate, I dont belong here.
My mother (rest her soul) always told me, If I didnt have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Well Sorry Mom, Forgive me !!!!
Go Sc*w yourself DJ…..
And Goldy, why would you condone, let alone not filter such insulting bullsheet from people that just want to debate on an adult level? This blog reminds me of Beavis and Butthead Gone Wild. I hope you are proud!!!
Chris @ 123
“Go Sc*w yourself DJ…..”
Come on, Chris, let loose! Just unload on me :-)
Seriously Chris, I am happy to debate people who properly use facts (with documentation when the information is not widely accepted or available), and construct arguments from a factual foundaton. People who make up stuff, assert their opinion as facts, don’t understand the difference between a well-supported argument and their own opinion, or use these threads as an anger-management tool to relieve themselves about losing an election, may well get handled roughly (linguistically, not physically :-).
Its a rough neighborhood, Chris, but given the fairly small number of repeat-posters (relative to total traffic volume), it is clear that these threads are a hobby, and almost a community center for some people. The rough talk is not really personal (most of the time). And, we actually do end up getting into some productive debates and interesting discussions once in awhile.
Chris: Let it go. He’s not worth it. Keep your commentary “edgy”. We who are always RIGHT welcome you to the fray.
Chris
It’s not a debate. It’s Goldy preaching to the choir, the choir tossing around typical lefty garbage, and the rest of us trying to inject an occasional reality check.
zip @ 122
“By “not arguing for or against the proposition that it was a major screw-up, let alone whose screw-up” you are imitating an ostrich.”
What the fuck? So, if you say “Clinton is a devil worshiper because my neighbor heard he was,” then I am an ostrich if I reply, “maybe, or maybe not … what is your substantive evidence?” Hmmm…I would have called it prudent skepticism, but perhaps I don’t fully understand the “new right wing mentality.”
“DOT selected, hired and approved the work plan of the consultant responsible for the research and test pits, did they not? DOT made the problem much worse by continuing to work after the initial discovery, did they not? DOT was obliged to do a more thorough assessment of this site, AND to take things seriously when the first bones were found. “
Maybe…or maybe not. Perhaps we need some evidence or documentation. I at least tried. I visited an archaeologist friend of mine at the UW this afternoon and asked him about the case. He provided some information, but suggested I discuss it with his colleague who knew much more about it. That person was not available today. You, on the other hand, just seem to be making up stuff without any real information about the case beyond the sketch we have all seen in the papers.
“Writing this off as “bad luck” does not cut it on a screw up of this scale.”
Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t believe you have enough information to make that determination with any certainty. Please recognize that I did not claim it was bad luck. I only offered it as an alternative to the uninformed speculation that it was mismanagement by WSDOT.
It might have been WSDOT mismanagement … or not.
actually, its goldy making some funny but (usually~~ he’s too damn party loyal sometimes) true posts that entertain us, and the righties talking about everything else under the sun… BUT the subject at hand.
Oh and some really blatant trolling by the like of ProudASS and JCH.
dj
Let me get this straight: You will not stick your neck out and agree that DOT was RESPONSIBLE for this chain of events: first, disturb the remains; second, shut down construction for 8 months and investigate further; third, disturb more remains; fourth, abandon the property; and fifth, get sued for screwing up. Even if “bad luck” was involved as you sort of speculate, it’s still a screw up.
The purpose of the first and second investigations is to remove LUCK from the equation. If the investigations miss what is actually there, that meets the definiton of a “screw up” does it not?
Especially given the second chance to investigate further during Aug 2003 to March 2004. With full knowledge that “everything was riding on” the thoroughness of that second investigation.
zip @ 129
My original post in this thread on this topic was to ask Mr. Cynical to provide documentation for his claim (in a previous thread) that the existance of the graveyard was known about and made public on a web site PRIOR to the start of construction. That is because his claim, if true, would not look good for the state. But, so far, he has not come through.
Your characterization of the events is so incomplete that it doesn’t merit a serious response. You gloss over agreements between the state and tribe, the state’s NAGPRA compliance issues, and the actual sequence of salavage archaeology and construction at the site. You have given far fewer details than we all know about from the sketches provided by the papers. You argument, therefore, is little more than a “Clinton is a devil worshiper because it seems likely to me” argument.
I don’t have all the information I need to establish points of failure in the project and to establish who fucked up (if anyone), and I sure as hell know that you don’t have the information (you don’t seem to know anything beyond newspaper reports). Therefore, I’ll not accuse the state of mismanagement. But, who knows, I might conclude that the state fucked up sometime down the road, if that is where the evidence points.
So much heat. So little light. Doesn’t take but a few minutes to read what happened in Port Angeles. Watch this thread by this time tomorrow for a link to the answer to the complaint.
The other big issue seems to be “what happens to all those billions and billions of dollars they already get from the gas tax?” Since this discussion group is so lively, watch this space for some simple math. For starters, one penny of gas tax raises $32 million statewide per year. It costs about $150 million per year to maintain and operate state highways. Pllowing. Stripping. Lighting. Sweeping. Cutting back vegetation, etc. With six million registered vehicles in the state, that’s about $30 per vehicle per year. Eleven cents or so of the total goes directly to cities and towns for their roads. A Nickel is dedicated for bond debt service so the projects the legislature directed to be built would be.. The greatest myth in the whole deal is that there have been hundreds of millions — even billions — if dollars sitting around unspent or badly spent and there’s huge volumes of fiscal capacity for highways. The books are audited. You’d think it would have turned up. After I-695, WA fell to 48th or so state in the nation for per capita highway capital investment. And about those layabouts working on the asphalt crews. It’s the private contractor who low bid the job who decides how many people efficiently staff a work crew. Maybe you should ask for a tour of a paving project to see how the private sector, its profit at stake, organizes what those people do so a profit can be turned on the money the contractor gets paid by the government per the low bid!
dj
Nice stuck up attitude reverting to “doesn’t merit a serious response”, dick.
Your attitude is so far gone you can’t even look at the end result and known facts to reach a simple conclusion that DOT was responsible for this fiasco. Not “points of failure” but which agency was responsible for succesfully completing this project and instead ended up with the well documented mess.
You can’t describe or speculate one potential scenario where any entity other than DOT is responsible, because there are none.
zip @ 132
“Nice stuck up attitude reverting to “doesn’t merit a serious response”, dick.”
And, you aren’t doin’ much to rectify the situation!
“You can’t describe or speculate one potential scenario where any entity other than DOT is responsible, because there are none.”
Oh…QED. Does it make you feel liberated to be unencumbered by facts and evidence, zip?
dj
You are pretty glib dj but your continual insistence that you need more facts and evidence to acknowledge that DOT is responsible for THEIR OWN PROJECT seems awfully wierd. Nobody’s deposing you here, just trying to explore a basic concept: DOT spends the tax dollars and manages the project therefore is reponsible for the results, NO MATTER WHO SCREWED IT UP OR HOW.
Still waiting for expansion of your “bad luck” scenario. Or maybe the contractor built on the wrong property. There’s a possibility that Tim Eyman rafted over at night and sabotaged things. Perhaps the previous owners of the property perpetrated a cynical fraud and set DOT up? I contend that even under any of those scenarios DOT is still responsible.
Do us all a favor and promise never to accept a position that involves taking responsibility for results. Thanks.
Zip,
Just out of curiousity, had DOT spent a ton of extra money to study the grave site, are you saying you wouldn’t have criticized them for spending money on “studies” like many other 912 supporters? Because I suspect you would have.
Somehow my post from midnight, “So much heat, so little light,: didn;t show up. Anybody see it lost in cyberspace”
Anyway, watch this space for the state;s answer to the Tribe’s lawsuit. A link will be up today. Reading it will answer at least some of the questions.
Gotta go fight traffic at the Tacoma Dome on the drive to Seattle. Big congestion spot and worst accident location in the state. $400 million in the nine and a hlaf cents is there to fix it. Some people I read about out there perhaps doesn’t know about congestion at the Tacoma Dome, or about the project. Or the work being done there now to widen the bridges so the new lanes can go in. Those barrels are all in your imagination.
And it appears totally beyond some people’s imagination that a real project could make highways safer and ease a congestion chokepoint. Can’t be one. Can’t be the other. Must be nothing at all.
Rick Schaut @ 111
You are absolutely correct. My math is bad. But not as bad as WADOT. Thanks to your example I refigured… $.05 is only $90 MILLION a year.
But oops, the nickle project grey sheet shows $40.7 Million in completed projects FOR FOUR YEARS. Maybe you can help me with the unused balance and the interest it’s collecting.
Oh, BTW – any idea what they do with the OTHER $.235 they confiscate …and the matching funds?
Doug; they gave you sounder and that little tacoma train.
Didn’t that solve your problems :(
Bax
No. And when did you stop kicking your dog?
zip
Wow … you are annoyed because I want more information before taking a stand on an issue? That’s pretty funny.
“Do us all a favor and promise never to accept a position that involves taking responsibility for results.”
Oh? Now I am somehow irresponsible because I will not prejudge the situation? LOL!
Hey, zip. Do us all a favor, and promise never to sit on a jury.
DOT spends the tax dollars and manages the project therefore is reponsible for the results, NO MATTER WHO SCREWED IT UP OR HOW
zip @ 142
DOT spends the tax dollars and manages the project therefore is reponsible for the results, NO MATTER WHO SCREWED IT UP OR HOW
Really? Wow … I guess we can get rid of much of our court system if it is that easy!
Moron!
I used to think government was where all the bs is, but now I have decided I might have had too narrow a view.
Here’s the link to the state’s answer to the Tribal Lawsuit
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdo.....RCLAIM.pdf
Thanks Linda,
That is very interesting reading. I’ll have to try and find a copy of the LEKT petition, too.
dj
Way to go “framing the argument”, dj! You can talk about it in terms of LEGAL LIABILITY for the missed site condition all you want. That is not what I have been harping on (and you know it dick head). What about their responsibility to get things done “on time and within budget” that we keep hearing about? Is there a qualifier that says “unless we can prevail in court against a tribe that has no means of reimbursing us for all the money and time we wasted on this”?
They want $.09 more per gallon for relieving congestion but the preferred alternative for SR 520 is the same two GP lanes we have now and an HOV lane that won’t do squat for freight movement. At $1.5 billion I refuse to pay these idiots more tax money when they refuse to reasonably widen a freeway and build a decent bridge. Our symbiotic relationship has broken down on their end. Greece built a brand new cable-stayed bridge out to the Pelopponese Islands for $800 Million and it won awards – why can’t we do that?