I’ve used HA to advocate for moving to a high-tuition/high-financial-aid model in Washington’s four-year universities, pretty much since I started blogging, first in July of 2004, and at least once a year since (for example, here, here, here, and here). Hiking tuition is not a classically progressive policy proposal, and let me tell you, it didn’t win me many fans either in the comment threads or our state Democratic caucus.
But now that the Legislature is close to adopting this model via a bill that would grant “tuition flexibility” to the UW, WSU and Western, I gotta admit that I’m getting more than a little nervous.
See, the concept is rather simple. By mandating low in-state tuition prices, far below the actual cost to the university of providing an undergraduate education, the state has essentially been distributing the bulk of its funds directly to students in the form of a flat, per student subsidy, regardless of means. But under the new system, tuition would be allowed to gradually rise closer to actual costs, while financial aid grants and income thresholds rose accordingly, so as to keep higher education affordable to low and middle income families.
Indeed, with the extra revenue generated from those families who could afford to pay it, higher education could be made more affordable and more accessible. That is, assuming the state maintains its financial commitment to the state university system.
And that’s the assumption that’s making me nervous.
The whole point of this model is to offset higher tuition with higher financial aid, using the extra tuition revenue to help achieve this balance, but if the state uses new tuition revenue as an excuse for reducing its own expenses, that contract is irrevocably broken. My fear is that, with this tuition flexibility reform coming as a response to our state’s current budget crisis, legislators will view it primarily as a money-saving measure, and will treat it as such in subsequent budgets, resulting in a permanent reduction in future state funding for higher education. And honestly, I don’t want to play a role in enabling that.
We already don’t spend enough money to provide access to a quality higher education to all of our state’s young people, and we don’t need an excuse for legislators to spend even less. So while I obviously support tuition flexibility in theory, I cannot support it in practice unless the state makes the financial commitment necessary to assure that this reform makes higher eduction more accessible, not less. And I certainly cannot support it as a mere budgetary device.
DISCLOSURE:
Years ago, her mother and I bought our daughter four years of prepaid tuition through the state GET program, so higher in-state tuition will not impact us regardless of our means, should she attend a state university. Should our daughter attend a private or out-of-state university, higher in-state tuition would in fact result in a higher return on our investment.
Laura mae spews:
Anytime the state has wanted to shift spending, or decrease spending, it is removed from higher education support. The legislature has always looked at higher education as a place where it can save money and no one should expect that they will stop any time soon.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Public education is socialism for employers! Students and taxpayers subsidize the acquisition of work skills that employers turn into profit. We should do away with public education and require employers to train their workers from kindergarten through Ph.D.!
Roger Rabbit spews:
@1 If the state has to cut spending because people don’t want to pay taxes, where else can they cut? Should they release convicts from prison? lay off state troopers? kick sick old folks out of nursing homes? There’s not much flexibility in the state budget, and with half the budget going to education, and a constitutional mandate to fund K-12 education, the higher education budget is one of the very few places legislators can look when they have to cut spending by billions with a capital “B”.
Uh, think big spews:
We have x million unemployed people that are mostly undereducated and becoming unemployable as more jobs are shipped overseas by the benevolent oligarchs that run this country.
We have huge numbers of unemployed intelligent people who can teach.
Put the two together with free tuition and a stipend for accomplishment and I actually think that would be a jobs bill that would do something real.
Space? Do you realize how much unrentable strip malls are available just for taking over the mortgage payment?
Roger Rabbit spews:
The problem, of course, is that we can’t keep loading more regressive taxes on the backs of our poorest citizens while the rich skate. As I’ve said many times on this blog, unless we reform our tax structure, nothing else is possible — we can’t save public services, provide quality education, meet our infrastructure needs, or do anything else by raising the state/local tax burden on low-income households from 17% to 20% or 22%. Attempts to work within the existing tax framework have simply produced Tim Eyman and the teabag movement. We’re at the point where the overtaxed are going to revolt if they’re asked to pay even more. We’ve simply got to reform the distribution of tax burden or education and a host of other public services will progressively deteriorate in this state.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@4 “We have huge numbers of unemployed intelligent people who can teach.”
Oh sure. And we also have huge numbers of unemployed intelligent people we can put to work fixing cars, even though they have no mechanic training, and are expected to work without pay.
Just because I know law doesn’t mean I could teach law to others. I have no teaching skills. I was never trained for that. And yes, teaching is a skill that requires training and experience. You can’t teach effectively by standing in front of a room full of strangers in an abandoned strip mall space talking about subjects you’re familiar with.
The world is full of flying machines that look great on paper but don’t work so well when you strap them on and jump off a cliff. Your idea is one of them.
Mr. Cynical spews:
So Goldy–
How about if we take the funds to pay for this out of Governor Gregoire’s massive office budget with all her high salaried/high benefits pals lurking around doing nothing productive…’cept trying to take money from hard-working taxpayers?
How about rolling up your sleeves and re-inventing Higher Education…kicking the massive Adminstration Salaries to the curb?
How come you seem to assume all the current money is well-spent and immediately jump to MORE REVENUE??
Haven’t you been following the polls Goldy?
America is sick & tired of supporting bloated, ineffective bureaucracies.
Take a look at the TOTAL COMPENSATION of folks in the Higher Ed System. Make sure you find out how much paid time-off and benefits they have…then annualize those salaries.
It’s ridiculous.
However, if we even suggest reining it in…it will affect morale! Right Goldy? We don’t want overpaid Public Servants to have low morale now, do we? McGinn sure learned that lesson quick.
Mr. Cynical spews:
Perhaps Prez O-Bonehead can bring some of his CORPSE-MEN in and help solve this dilemma for you Goldy.
CORPSE-MEN???
God help us.
ArtFart spews:
So, Mr. C….would you be in favor of rolling back the clock to the age in which we paid teachers less than we did garbage collectors? Oh, wait. You’d probably like to pay the garbage collectors less as well, huh?
Mr. Cynical spews:
AF–
I never said that.
My main focus on Higher Education is something SeattleJew has repeatedly railed against…and that is Administrative Costs.
And BTW…in this recession, absolutely Government Salaries and Benefits should be reduced. Absolutely.
At least 10% Salary Reduction and 20% Benefit Reduction.
Should have been done a couple years ago.
Laura mae spews:
Roger: The tax structure is the problem, I agree. The only choice is not simply to burden low income people with more sales and gas tax, of course.
The legislature has the balls to cut higher ed but no fortitude to actually fix the regressive tax structure in this state. As a result, higher education is subject to the ups and downs of the economy. In the good years, higher education has been held prisoner to the state having to pay back what it has borrowed from pension funds and other promises it has made.
I think everyone is well aware of the constitutional mandate for a good portion of the budget, K-12 being the biggest portion.
It really is too bad that we have such a lack of imagination here. Really do you believe that higher education is a welfare program for businesses? Or are you being sarcastic? The earning power of those with 4 year degrees far exceeds the earning power of those without. The give back to the states that actually value higher education can’t be underestimated.
It’s very interesting to me that I have lived in two decidedly Republican states and each of them put a much greater value on higher education than in all the years I have lived in Washington. I think this state is pretty proud of its provincial, pioneer spirit and wants to stick to it.
Michael spews:
@7
Maybe The Gov should cut her office budget, but even if she did the money saved would be a drop in the bucket. Maybe it’s time to stop grinding that axe?
A couple of my friends are part of the administrative costs of our colleges. Their IT jobs didn’t exist anywhere 30 years ago, barely existed, 20 years ago and are now indispensable. You can’t look at how something worked or what something cost back in the day and assume that is how it should work or what it should cost today. Things change over time.
Michael spews:
@11
Sounds like that could be written that you lived in two classically conservative states. The current neo-conjob-Republicans don’t care about anyone, but themselves.
Bring back the Classically Conservative!
lostinaseaofblue spews:
For a brief and disorienting moment I thought I’d agree with Goldstein. We do need higher education to pay for itself, whether through some combination of administrative cuts and tuition rises or through whatever other means is required.
Or how about de-emphasizing higher education? Contrary to the mantra of high school guidance counselors everywhere most people really don’t need a 4 year degree. They do need basic competency at the high school diploma level, and maybe we need to focus more on graduating students who can read and write, have a basic grasp of history and the sciences and can perform basic math. (Instead of, you know, being very diverse and politically correct, but incapable in all of those areas.) That would leave universities under much less burden. Yes pre-college education would have to start actually doing its’ job, but that’s no bad thing.
Save university and college for those who need it, or better simply want the higher education as something other than a trade school. The reality is that most jobs simply don’t need employees well versed in philosophy and literature. They just need competent people who can learn something, anything.
Steve spews:
“have a basic grasp of history and the sciences”
But not the “soft” sciences, of course. Yeah, college grads might start believing in evolution or something. Who knows? Maybe even psychology.
“Or how about de-emphasizing higher education?”
Coming from a drop-out home flipper.
Mr. Cynical spews:
@14–
Now that is truly thinking out of the box.
Where are the jobs going to be in the future?
Why do we even have Higher Ed with majors like Philosophy for example??
Need to think out of the box..rather than allow this monster we have created to continue to consume more resources with questionable future value.
Just because someone desires a Higher Education doesn’t mean we have to deliver specifically what they desire.
Steve spews:
@16 Dude, the faux Libertarian @14 is a drop-out who apparently has some deep-seated and lingering issues about his scholastic failures. If you look just a wee bit closer you’ll see that he’s simply seeking the comfort that he hopes he’d find if everybody was a loser like himself. Funny thing is, a college education, or a lack of one, has very little to do with why he’s so fucked up in the head.
lebowski spews:
@17..projecting much?
Mr. Cynical spews:
It is interesting to see all the “progressive” states that are in huge budget pinches.
The Common Denominator is overspending during the recent “bubble”.
The solutions?
Lower spending to “pre-bubble” levels.
Become a Right to Work State….especially with government employees. Think about it for a moment…who is on the taxpayers side of the bargaining table with State Employees?
Answer, Gregoire! Put in office by the people she is supposedly negotiating with. Arms length negotiations? IMPOSSIBLE!
proud leftist spews:
Please, God, protect us from Cynical and lost.
We are falling behind other industrialized nations in education levels, yet you twits advocate deemphasizing higher education and getting rid of the liberal arts. Fellows, without philosophers, poets, and historians, we would have no concept of our place, no “thinking outside the box,” no notion of human progress or the lack thereof. Of course, you guys wouldn’t care about those types of things.
Daddy Love spews:
Speaking of financial irresponsibility, see this fun, fun graph that compares job losses under president Bush and the ACORN-fraud-elected, fascist, socialist, foreign-born, terrorist-loving, weak-kneed, secretly-black-Panther, Che-Guevara-blowing so-called president Barack Obama here.
A guaranteed hoot.
lebowski spews:
@21…can you show us a similar graph showing the national debt and budget deficit between the two?
Can you then show us a graph that shows the US economy spiraling downward when all those govt IOU’s get called in?
Thanks….
Roger Rabbit spews:
@7 “How about if we take the funds to pay for this out of Governor Gregoire’s massive office budget with all her high salaried/high benefits pals lurking around doing nothing productive…’cept trying to take money from hard-working taxpayers?”
Why don’t you show us some hard numbers, Klown? Meanwhile, blow into this pipe so I can sell your hot air. America needs more cheap energy!
Roger Rabbit spews:
@10 There’s a lot more administrative costs in health care than education. If you want to save a shitload of money get rid of the private health insurance industry.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@11 Well let’s see here …
“Really do you believe that higher education is
[ ] 1. a welfare program for businesses?
[ ] 2. Or are you being sarcastic?”
… what do you think, kids, do we have a Roger Rabbit Quiz here?
Steve spews:
“@17..projecting much?”
When wingnuts start projecting projection, you just know they’re fucked up.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@12 On the other hand, maybe the Gov SHOULDN’T cut her office staff, so we have crucial decisions based on thoughtful analysis of hard facts instead of throwing darts.
The biggest component of the governor’s office is the Office of Financial Management, whose title is self-explanatory. They write the state budget and track revenues/expenses.
Only an idiot like Klown would suggest cutting back on OFM staffing. That’s like a retail store firing its cashiers and accountants to save money.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@14 Yeah right. We should become a nation of plumbers and truck drivers, and only the rich should go to college. Lost’s vision for America is a society similar to, say, Costa Rica.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@16 “Now that is truly thinking out of the box.”
So is piloting a jetliner while drunk.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@16 “Why do we even have Higher Ed with majors like Philosophy for example??”
Right, we don’t need to know anything about logic, ethics, or reasoning; all you need to solve the world’s problems is a slide rule.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@19 Goatfucker tells us only “progressive” states “overspent” and have budget problems.
Well let’s see, last July, ABC News reported, “Things are so bad that 48 states addressed or are facing shortfalls in the fiscal year that just started.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Business.....038;page=1
The other two? North Dakota and Montana, which (a) are lightly populated, and (b) have massive oil and gas revenues. Everybody else? Just a gang of liberal overspenders.
Roger Rabbit spews:
But Cynical, like a cow in a pasture, will just go truckin’ along making more bullshit as he goes …
Roger Rabbit spews:
@20 They think a calculator can solve all the world’s problems. I once thought so, too, when I was very young — I’m embarrassed to remember it.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@20 Why stop there? If you look at the job records of presidents all the way back to the 1920s, what you’ll see every Democrat beat every Republican.
Jobs Records of Presidents
(as percentage of workforce)
Democrat Roosevelt 5.3%
Democrat Johnson 3.8%
Democrat Carter 3.1%
Democrat Truman 2.5%
Democrat Clinton 2.4%
Democrat Kennedy 2.3%
Republican Nixon 2.2%
Republican Reagan 2.1%
Republican Coolidge 1.1%
Republican Ford 1.1%
Republican Eisenhower 0.9%
Republican Bush Sr. 0.6%
Republican Bush Jr. (0.7%)
Republican Hoover (9.0%)
(Data thru 2003)
Is that accidental? No, of course not. It reflects Republicans’ different priorities. They just don’t care about workers or jobs.
In fact, Republicans like unemployment, because it keeps wages low, workers docile, and unions in line.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@21 not @20
Roger Rabbit spews:
@22 Here’s the chart you asked for.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/.....-pictures/
(Next time, if you don’t know how to find something — this took 10 seconds — ask a kid to show you. I’m not your fucking research assistant.)
Of course, this picture doesn’t tell the whole story, or even very much of it. Bush borrowed money to give tax breaks to billionaires and fight an unnecessary war that cost 5,000 American lives; Obama borrowed money to prevent a Great Depression. Bush inherited a booming economy and budget surpluses, and turned them into deficits and economic collapse; Obama is cleaning up the mess that Republicans left behind. Blaming these deficits on Obama is like blaming the cost of fixing broken windows on the property owner instead of the rowdy kids who threw the rocks through the windows.
jon spews:
@36 I’m not your fucking research assistant
Good thing, because that data is very stale. The most recent OMB projections increase the accumulated debt from 2009-2019 by $1.8 trillion over last year’s projections, and the 2020 deficit is projected to come in at a whopping $1 trillion, for what the projections are worth. From there it goes to the moon without course correction. The last administration set the table, but at some point voters will be looking at this administration.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Republican Hypocrite 2.0
Remember the U.S. Senator who traded his vote for federal largesse for his state? Yeah, this guy:
“Republican Senator Richard Shelby has … placed a blanket hold on all 70-plus executive nominees awaiting approval to join the Obama administration.
“Shelby … is seeking concessions, including an expensive [aerial] tanker, for his home state of Alabama.”
http://www.theatlanticwire.com.....o-Far-2446
Roger Rabbit Commentary: When a Ben Nelson does it to get Medicaid funding for his state, conservatives scream “Corruption!” and demand criminal prosecution. When Richard Shelby does it to get an Air Force contract for his state, that’s just hardball politics.
Roger Rabbit spews:
It’s kind of interesting that after all the brouhaha raised by wingnuts and teabaggers over Ben Nelson’s vote-trading, a Republican mirrors the exact same behavior. But where’s the conservative outrage this time?
Listen for the crickets chirping.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@37 You get what you pay for.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Hey wingnuts! Got anything to say about Dick Shelby’s vote-trading? Should we start a corruption investigation?
Roger Rabbit spews:
How To Make America Governable
“Contrary to conventional wisdom, the loss of a 60-vote supermajority in the Senate does not doom health-care reform or financial regulatory reform, or even a new stimulus bill. It is not the filibuster, per se, that is likely to prevent passage of important legislation, so much as its use in combination with other parliamentary tactics to prevent the Senate from even taking up legislation.
“Joe Biden … needs to step up to his constitutional duty as presiding officer of the Senate and begin overturning those age-old parliamentary precedents that now allow partisan obstructionists to eviscerate all semblance of majority rule. Until that’s done, Republicans will have no incentive to agree to any real compromises, Democrats will continue trying to pass legislation without them, and everyone will come out a loser.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....04361.html
romegas spews:
@40 You get what you pay for
Right, and we’ll keep that in mind with the rest of your drivel! (though the fact of the matter is, you have no idea what you’re doing!)
ArtFart spews:
@14 There was a time I would have agreed with you, but not any more. Degreed engineers and computer scientists have become the mechanics and carpenters of the new millenium.
Oh, yeah…we’re also rapidly approaching the situation we had in the other part of the white-collar world in the early 70’s, when you practically needed an MBA to be hired as a bank teller.
nolaguy spews:
Roger @ 36: – Obama is cleaning up the mess that Republicans left behind.
What has Obama cleaned up? From what I can tell, nothing has been fixed. Money has been borrowed to allow banksters to give huge bonuses. I guess the stimulus has created some temporary jobs… But what has been “cleaned up”?
Of course, these deficits cannot all be pinned on the President. The House and Senate certainly should co-own the current economy, IMO.
Max Rockatansky spews:
@26..when batshit crazy moon howlers project projecting projection, you just know their fucked up.
Max Rockatansky spews:
@36…I didnt ask you, goebbels rabbit.
and Bush inherited a dot com bust that had the economy in slow down mode……perhaps 10 years is too much for your addled mind to remember
oohh..and look here, the EDIT FUNCTION WORKS..maybe you are just too stupid to figure it out….dumbass barrister wannabe.
doggril spews:
Mr. Cynical- Like a typical Con, your suggested “solutions” are driven more by your reality-denying ideology than by any, um, facts. For example, your suggestion to help education by cutting the Governor’s staff amounts to a suggestion to solve a billion dollar problem with, at most, a million or so dollars. You’re off by a few decimal places–not to mention the fact that you clearly don’t know what the positions you “propose” cutting actually do, so you don’t even know the potential repercussions of your “suggestion”.
But, like I said, it’s a typical Con “suggestion”: lots of bluster but nothing that actually makes any sense.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Alaska’s Unelected Governor
NBC News reports that 1,200 e-mails obtained under Alaska’s public records law reveal that Todd Palin was heavily involved in running the state government while his wife was governor.
The state withheld an additional 243 e-mails under a claim of executive privilege. According to NBC, these e-mails “between Todd Palin and senior officials reach into countless areas of state government and politics: potential board appointees, constituent complaints, use of the state jet, oil and gas production, marine regulation, gas pipeline bids, postsecondary education, wildfires, native Alaskan issues, the state effort to save the Matanuska Maid dairy, budget planning, potential budget vetoes, oil shale leasing, ‘strategy for responding to media allegations,’ staffing at the mansion, pier diem payments to the governor for travel, ‘strategy for responding to questions about pregnancy,’ potential cuts to the governor’s staff, ‘confidentiality issues,’ Bureau of Land Management land transfers and trespass issues and requests to the U.S. transportation secretary” and “a discussion of how to reply to ‘media questions about Todd Palin’s work and potential conflict of interests.'”
Among other things, the e-mails reveal:
“The governor coached her staff on how to disguise the amount of electrical work needed at the mansion to hook up her new tanning bed.
“Palin and her staff stewed over the refusal of the state Public Safety Department to provide a plane so the children could fly to Todd’s family’s home in Dillingham[.]
“The manager of the Palins’ travel schedule searched for a public event to use as justification (‘I just need one’) to charge the state for an airplane flight for Palin’s daughter, Willow[.]”
NBC found that, “The governor and her top aides set up accounts outside the state system, supposedly outside the reach of the public records laws” and noted that, “Outside accounts also helped avoid any violation of the state law against using public resources for campaigning.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35238034/ns/politics/
Mr. Cynical spews:
Racist Roger Rabbit spews:
Why don’t you show us some hard numbers
Go ahead and compare them to Gary Locke’s last Budget. More staff and much higher paid….yet the State is even more screwed up.
Mr. Cynical spews:
48. doggril spews:
That was merely an example of where to start your focus dumba$$. Look at our “leaders’ Budget first.
My suggesting on many occassions is to cut all State Salaries by 10%, Reduce Benefits by 20% and reduce Paid Time-off by 20%.
According to the State’s own HR Dept., benefits average 31% and vacation/sick leave/personal leave & Holidays amounts to 17-18% of the workdays.
That my friend works out to approx. $1 BILLION.
Mr. Cynical spews:
We have a crisis caused by overspending in the boomtimes. Now the Boomtimes numbers are UNSUSTAINABLE during downturns.
Gregoire KNEW her last 2 Budgets were unsustainable…but signed them anyway because she is owned by the State Employees Union.
Have your ever thought about how ridiculous it is to have an elected Governor who took all kinds of Union help in Elections to be negotiating Union Contracts??
C’mon. Wise up and Grow Up.
We are being asked to support BOOMTIME State Salaries/Benefits/Paid Time-off and high staffing levels in a recession.
We need to rollback to pre-Gregoire levels…staffing and compensation.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@50 Well, if you ask me, the governor needs a chief of staff, a legislative director, a legal counsel, and a communications director. I’m pretty sure all past governors had such staff. The director of OMB is an agency head. And these salaries are ridiculously low compared to comparable positions in the corporate sector.
Roger Rabbit spews:
To a government-hating wingnut like Klown, paying CEOs millions of dollars at the shareholders’ expense is peachy keen, and there’s nothing wrong with paying a corporate counsel $500,000 to $1,500,000 a year, but Klown thinks taxpayers are getting ripped off unless public servants work for nothing.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Here’s how it works with the government-haters like Klown. If you take a public job paying $50,000 or $60,000 a year because you rather use your talents for the public good than making money, then you’re a “loser” who “can’t get a job in the real world.” But if a public servant gets paid, say, $175,000 for a top policy or administrative in state government, then the taxpayers are getting ripped off and the spending on those staff positions is “waste” or “abuse”. There’s no making the government-haters happy, no matter what you do, so fuck ’em. I quit listening to people like that 30 years ago. They have nothing to say. Look at it this way, bitching about government is America’s favorite sport, and anything you say in defense of public workers is taking that away from them and interfering with their free speech rights and all that crap.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@52 “Have your ever thought about how ridiculous it is to have an elected Governor who took all kinds of Union help in Elections to be negotiating Union Contracts??”
I see a real conflict of interest in a President (you know which one I mean) taking campaign contributions from big business, and then using the office to screw unions.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Hypocrisy is another hallmark of the Mr. Cynicals of the world.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@52 “We are being asked to support BOOMTIME State Salaries/Benefits/Paid Time-off and high staffing levels in a recession.”
Really? Which of your taxes did Gregoire raise? I’m under the impression she’s been cutting agency budgets and laying off state workers in response to the recession.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Cynical, in addition to being a hypocrite, is a liar.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@51 “My suggesting on many occassions is to cut all State Salaries by 10%”
I think one could argue, with equal justification, for raising your taxes by 10% instead. Why the hell should you expect to get the benefit of other people’s work for less than fair value?
Roger Rabbit spews:
Cynical, in addition to being a hypocrite and a liar, is also a panhandler.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Let’s do this, Cynical. We’ll cut state workers’ pay by 10%, but we’ll also pass a law requiring all businesses to give state workers a 10% discount on everything they buy.
Roger Rabbit spews:
The world has no problems that cheap labor conservatives don’t want to solve by cutting other people’s wages.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Why would you vote for someone who wants to cut your wages? Why would you vote for a party whose ideology and platform are based on cheap labor?
Mr. Cynical spews:
Rog–
Seems you have blown a cork!!
Thank you for showing how unreasonable lifetime Government Bureaucrats are.
PUBLIC SERVANT??
My derrierre!
Proud To Be An Ass spews:
KKKlown,
Roger has just handed you your lunch. You are a pathetic loser. Do all of us a favor: Shoot yourself.
Proud To Be An Ass spews:
Sooner or later all economic elites falter and fail, the dust of history, entropy, hubris, whatever. But they will never cease to claim that they represent ‘survival of the fittest’, that they ‘deserve’ to rule.
Give that some thought next time you are in the presence of lunatic winger ranting.
Proud To Be An Ass spews:
@61: Yup. Their ability to suck off the government teat puts so-called ‘welfare queens’ to shame. I mean, why settle for a new Cadillac when you can reap billions? Buying Congress has the the highest ROI of any private investment, bar none.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@66 “Do all of us a favor: Shoot yourself.”
Nah, that’s too quick. He should drink Drano.*
* Just kidding! Cheap labor conservative humor.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@68 “Buying Congress has the the highest ROI of any private investment, bar none.”
The millionaires who gave the GOP $4 billion during the 2000 – 2004 election cycle got back $400 billion in tax breaks. That’s a 10,000% return on investment. Beats any stock I ever owned.
Proud To Be An Ass spews:
@69: With all due respect Roger, you don’t put a rabid dog down with drano. I’d ask you to have some humanity, but you are, after all, a rabbit.
KKKlown claims to live by the credo of swift, sure, and morally superior certain and unswerving judgement.
Is it too much to ask that he also die by those principles? Now I know he will be on his death bed asking for more handouts (like forgiveness), but that’s the way they are.
Fuck with the goats, die like a goat.
my ancestors came from Europe spews:
49 – Nice find Roger..
In the classic words of the Klown:
http://horsesass.org/?p=6363#comment-854038
Sure dodged a bullet in Nov 2004 and 2008..
k spews:
Hey C, advocating for government worker pay cuts now is great. Were you avocating for raises during good times? I can tell you I manage a major capital program and have employees who make much less than the contractors they work with. They are expected to manage contracts with fewer resources when they have less experience than their contractors. In good times they get experience and go to the private sector. I have long experience in being outbid for qualified workers. I have been told by senior folks they will not take the pay cut to manage major programs. In bad times those who stayed are expected to pay the price.
We are here to serve.
Proud To Be An Ass spews:
But k, you are simply administering the handout of wealth, but they, they are CREATING it.
it’s a system of pure effing genius.
Proud To Be An Ass spews:
Wa State family income over the next two years: Over $100billion. The top 20% will take down about half of that. Three billion of that is six per cent. Peanuts.
But KKKKKKKlown advocates cutting state worker pay by 25%. God damn him to hell.
All Facts Support My Positions spews:
Goldy, you can pour all the trillions you want down the education rat hole. With no one creating jobs, and Wall Street getting bonuses for out sourcing jobs it is all A TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY.
Let the Benedict Arnold companies that are sending EVERY JOB POSSIBLE overseas pay for ALL EDUCATION. Base the amount they have to pay on the number of Americans they lay off, and the number of Chinese they hire to build their crumbling lead filled crap that is filling our landfills.
Better yet, tax ALL imports to equalize the amount of labor “saved” by making “the crap” overseas. Add the difference in labor as a tax. Problem solved.
Screw education without job creation.
Screw it all to hell.
I mean it.
All Facts Support My Positions spews:
#19 Cynical. If the “liberal” states didn’t have to subsidize the “red” states with federal taxes, we would be doing just fine.
Tax Imports.
Period.
2.8 billion in import taxes. No problem. Budget balanced.
You wanna sell yer cheap crap here made by child/slave labor? Then pay up Mao.
I heard attempting to organize a union in China is a death penalty crime.
Free trade my ass. Calling what we got now free is like calling rape free sex.
proud leftist spews:
It is remarkable that anyone could consider Sarah Palin a serious person, while, at the same time, thinking that Barack Obama is not such. Yet, Cynical would rather have Sarah Palin as Leader of the Free World than our president. Cyn, on an IQ level–and this is a straight yes or no question–do you think Sarah Palin’s IQ comes within 20 points of our President’s?
tisfud spews:
@78
Yea, well, so much for all those IQ points:
“Hill Dems say they have no clear understanding of Obama’s strategy — or if there even is one.”
Democrats chafe as White House wavers on health care bill
http://www.politico.com/news/s.....z0emHa6EoU
Your name serves you well, PL: you’re out in left field.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@71 “With all due respect Roger, you don’t put a rabid dog down with drano.”
I like the idea of putting rabid dogs down with Drano. But why stop with rabid dogs? Let’s put them all down! Dogs are useless. All they do is bark, shit on the grass, and chase rabbits.
“I’d ask you to have some humanity, but you are, after all, a rabbit.”
Nature is already cruel enough without asking wild animals to behave like humans.
Roger Rabbit spews:
49, 72 — It’s time people realize the whole Sarah Palin freakshow is nothing but a for-profit subsidiary of Todd Palin Inc., and Sarah is merely the pretty face on the machinations of Todd’s corrupt and twisted mind. Sadly, lots of people suck up to this sort of thing, and our celebrity-worshipping culture will reward this sleazy, self-aggrandizing, and scheming couple by showering millions of dollars on them.
Roger Rabbit spews:
I definitely get the feeling Todd married Sarah for the money he could make off her, and she married him because she didn’t have the brains to make it work by herself.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory spews:
Gone was the exultant mood of jubilation that party officials felt when they last gathered for President Barack Obama’s inauguration a year ago. In its place was a sense of palpable concern that the party is on the verge of suffering significant – if not crippling – losses
http://www.politico.com/news/s.....z0emLr1ufl
Meanwhile, Rabbit prattles on and on about Palin.
Mr. Cynical spews:
66. Proud To Be An Ass spews:
Dissent and holding Obam-mao accountable is my mission dimwit. Seems to be working!
Saturday, February 06, 2010
Hey, how about all those things you told us Obam-Mao and the dummocrats were gonna do to rich folks and Conservatives??
How’s that Hope and Change workin’ out for ya??
Roger Rabbit spews:
@75 “But KKKKKKKlown advocates cutting state worker pay by 25%. God damn him to hell.”
You’re being too nice to him. I say turn him over to the state workers’ wives who can’t pay rent or buy shoes for the kids.
The ugly meanness of Republicans toward public servants came through with startling clarity the last time we had a Republican governor; and, in fact, the incident I’m about to describe probably has much to do with why we haven’t had a Republican governor since then, because the 100,000 state workers and their spouses are a substantial voting bloc.
In the early 1980s, in the depths of the Reagan Depression, GOP Gov. John Spellman ordered the state to pay its workers monthly instead of bimonthly, with the first paycheck held back for 2 weeks. This allowed the state to bank the payroll for an extra 6 weeks, but the extra interest the state earned was so paltry — a mere $4 million — that Spellman’s only plausible motivation was to screw the workers out of pure meanness.
You see, this maneuver meant state workers, who were accustomed to be paid twice monthly, would have to wait SIX WEEKS for their next paycheck in effect skipping two whole pay periods. The change was NOT phased in; it was sprung on the workers with only 24 hours’ notice. In other words, they were told on Thursday that instead of being paid the next day they wouldn’t see their next paycheck for a MONTH AND A HALF.
But Spellman didn’t stop there. He also ordered DSHS to deny the applications of any and all state employees who applied for food stamps, even if they legally qualified. This was blatantly illegal. Legal aid lawyers sued and eventually the courts overturned Spellman’s order and forced the state to pay retroactive food stamps to state worker families who qualified, but that didn’t happen until over two years later. Meanwhile, many of the lower-paid state employees had to go to food banks or get help from family and friends to feed their families.
It goes without saying that Spellman not only was a one-term governor, but left office a hated man and never held public office again. His attempt to gratuitously “punish” state workers backfired not only on him but also on his party; people have long memories, and no Republican has been elected governor in this state ever since.
Mr. Cynical spews:
71. Proud To Be An Ass spews:
Wrong again!
I live by the credo of smaller, less intrusive, cost-effective government that truly serves the people…not themselves.
And NO DEFICIT SPENDING! Proud wants to put all of us in a neat box to attack. That’s what Obam-Mao and the Dummocrats tried in Virginia, NJ and Mass. And they keep trying to do that by mocking Tea Partiers because they view them as some sort of Republican Conspiracy Plot! In reality, more than half the Tea Partiers HATE both Political Parties. Wisely, some Republican candidates have embraced the Tea Party key principals…while Obam-Mao and the Dummocrats mock & ridicule them.
Keepup the arrogant stupidity PROUD!!
Read this survey and the results–
http://www.rasmussenreports.co.....rvative_is
You Progressives are viewed in the same vein as a guy tryin’ to pick up chicks with 5 herpes sores on his face & lips!
lostinaseaofblue spews:
Re Rabbit droppings-
I knew you and many others would take my post at 14 out of context, just not so far.
What I wasn’t saying-
There’s no place for liberal arts in America. Of course there is, but 80% or better of students don’t care about them anyway. Let’s drop the hyopocrisy that we’re creating a nation of Renaissance men. Most people are joe sixpacks who could care less about philosophy or history, and you can’t make them care.
College should be only for those who can afford it. Of course this is the standard liberal red herring. Scholarships have existed to help less fortunate, but able, people to seek a university education. The emphasis is on ‘able,’ though, and not on ‘less fortunate.’
What I was saying (only you only read what you wanted it to mean.)
University shouldn’t be a trade school. We have those and they serve a valuable purpose. But universities should be for the education of those who want a real education, not the pc crap in K-12.
The PC crap in K-12 is why universities have to be trade schools. If in the first 12 years students got the basic grounding in the fundamentals they wouldn’t need universities to teach them these rudimentary skills.
Carpenters and plumbers don’t need college, but neither do software engineers or most other white collar jobs. These people don’t care about higher ed, they care about higher pay. The role of Kant or Socrates in their lives is and always will be non-existent. Let’s stop pretending we can make it otherwise.
Steve,
Good counseling programs exist for your deep seated emotional problems. I can’t recommmend specific ones as I’ve never needed them, but you might look into this for your own well being.
Simply raging at a point of view which frightens you becuase it’s logical is not a healthy coping mechanism, old buddy.
Mr. Cynical spews:
73. k spews:
They got raises and many new hires.
It was a mistake in the face of a recession.
Besides, the Private Sector has much higher unemployment and considerably less average salary and an even higher gap in terms of Benefits and Paid Time-off.
Your point is inaccurate and irrelevant.
Grow up and wise up…then try again.
Roger Rabbit spews:
When Spellman did this, he knew thousands of state workers wouldn’t be able to pay their mortgages or rent, would incur late penalties on car, credit card, and bill payments; and literally wouldn’t have money to buy food (obviously, he anticipated they would seek food assistance from the state).
As a sop, he suggested (but did not order) that banks and other lenders waive late penalties for state workers on a one-time basis. There is not a single known case of a lender who did. I was working for the state at the time, and when I asked my mortgage lender about it, they laughed in my face. Spellman knew, of course, that jawboning the businesses the workers had to make payments to would have no effect and was mere window dressing for public consumption.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Now ask me if I trust Republicans.
[riotous bunny laughter in background]
Roger Rabbit spews:
Not as far as I can spit; and, being a 30-inch tall rabbit, I don’t spit very far.
Mr. Cynical spews:
78. proud leftist spews:
Frankly, I would not want either one.
Nor would I want Joe Biden.
Nor would I want Nancy Pelosi.
Nor wouldd I want Harry Reid.
Obam-Mao has shown his total incompetence in 1 years. The majority sees it, you don’t. I can see how your Hope & Change bullshit has blinded you to the reality that Progressivism is D-E-A-D!
Give me Paul Ryan (R-WI)!!
Roger Rabbit spews:
Republicans love brandishing their “family values” and talking about how they “meet payroll.”
I’m hear to tell you Washington’s last Republican governor went out of his way to screw 100,000 working families by deliberately not meeting payroll when he had the payroll money sitting in the bank.
Next time you hear a Republican say something that sounds good, look at their actions, don’t be taken in by their words.
Mr. Cynical spews:
80. Roger Rabbit spews:
PETA would like to have a word with you Rog!
Roger Rabbit spews:
@84 YOU have a MISSION? You wouldn’t recognize a MISSION if one shot at you! You’re merely a babbling old fool.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@86 “smaller, less intrusive, cost-effective government that truly serves the people”
I’m for that, too, which is why I vote Democrat, because you sure don’t get that by voting for the likes of a George W. Bush.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@86 “And NO DEFICIT SPENDING!”
Then why are you a Republican? See, e.g., Reagan and Bush II, hypocrite.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@87 “We do need higher education to pay for itself, whether through some combination of administrative cuts and tuition rises or through whatever other means is required.
“Or how about de-emphasizing higher education?
“Contrary to the mantra of high school guidance counselors everywhere most people really don’t need a 4 year degree.”
What exactly did I “take out of context”? Your meaning seems quite clear.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@87 (continued) To which I’ll add, a reasonable person could infer from your comments that you see no reason for public-subsidized higher education because your ideal is putting all American workers in menial and low-paying jobs.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@87 “University shouldn’t be a trade school.”
Only someone who lacks a university education could make such an ignorant statement. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Roger Rabbit spews:
“Lost” is a good example of why we shouldn’t let rubes, hicks, and rednecks run our country or make public policy.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@88 “They got raises”
Bullshit. They got one raise in six years that was less than inflation. The inflation-adjusted real pay of state workers has steadily eroded almost continuously over the last 40 years. State salary surveys have consistently shown state employees are underpaid by 20% to 40%, depending on job classification. Your incessant whining about state employee compensation is in the same category as Mike McGavick’s bleating about minimum wage. For you assholes, no wage is too low, and any wage at all is too high.
As I said in one of my posts yesterday, what gives you the right to expect other people to do work that benefits you for less than the fair value of their labor, you selfish prick?
Roger Rabbit spews:
The Republican attitude toward paying workers, as exemplified by Mike McGavick’s call for a $2.13-an-hour minimum wage and letting restaurant owners keep the tips that customers thought they were giving to servers, and as expressed on this blog by Cynical Clown’s endless anti-worker diatribes, deserves only one response: Screw work.
I mean, really, these people have a chip on their shoulder toward workers and want us to work for nothing, so why the fuck should we work for them??!!
I want everyone to be happy, including them, and since working makes them so unhappy it’s obvious that nobody should work.
There never will be any social peace as long as anyone works, so we should all quit!. No one should work, and no work should get done.
They clearly don’t value or respect work, so why work? I don’t and never will again. I’ve had it with their asshole attitudes toward work and workers. Let them do their own fucking work.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@92 “Give me Paul Ryan (R-WI)!!”
Have you seen Ryan’s official photo? He looks stoned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....olitician)
Ryan is a whackjob, and so are you. He’s from Wisconsin’s Fox River Valley, a reactionary hotbed which produced one of American history’s ugliest labor conflicts (the Kohler strike) and nastiest political demagogues (Sen. Joe McCarthy), and he’s a reactionary himself. He’s for privatizing Medicare, eliminating SCHIP, freezing entitlement spending (read: no Social Security COLAs), and opposed the economic stimulus bill that helped halt job losses and the economy’s slide in depression.
The guy’s legislative program is a piece of shit, and I wouldn’t vote for it, or him. The fact you would says worlds about you.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@94 PETA? Where was PETA for the last 50 million years while hawks, snakes, and other predators were eating rabbits by the billions? Don’t talk to me about PETA! They’re nothing but a bunch of useless posturing grandstanders who are in it for donations and publicity.
lostinaseaofblue spews:
Further rabbit pellets-
I’m always amazed at the lack of comprehension of salient points shown by someone who claims to have been an attorney. How in the world did you survive? Oh yeah, you worked for the state, where ability to do your job didn’t matter and would in fact have been an impediment.
Had you read either of my postings you would have seen why your comments simply miss the point. If high school educated children well, we’d have no need of college for most career paths. Do you need this in words of one syllable in respect of your college degree?
Yes, I do want menial low skill jobs in America, and don’t think such jobs should be well compensated. Why should they? If the workman cares so little as to stay entry level why should his employer care to reward that attitude? We also need skilled trades, white collar, and executive jobs whose compensation should reflect the work, effort and ambition going into attaining them.
I don’t want to ship our industries overseas in a stupid race to the bottom, but don’t see anything constructive in liberal thought to address that problem. Come to that I don’t see much in conservative thought to fix it either. (This is called open mindedly examining an issue rather then responding without thought in a partisan reflex.)
As for your snarky attempts to demean me at 100 and 101, they rely on me caring about your opinion to be effective. I don’t.
Crusader spews:
The only solution to the budget deficit is to enact a progressive state income tax, with a 70% top rate on millionaires.
lostinaseaofblue spews:
Re 107
As always the liberal solution is simple armed robbery with tax law as the weapon. Don’t you guys ever get tired of being jealous of the wealthy and wanting revenge?
lostinaseaofblue spews:
Well, it’s the weekend and I have better things to do than chat with strangers. Have fun trying to answer any of the points I’ve raised. Wait, that assumes you ever try to do so.
Crusader spews:
lost – I’m just parroting what Rabbit Droppings and Goldy want. You know the Puget Progressives.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@106 “If high school educated children well, we’d have no need of college for most career paths.”
If you want your next surgery performed by a high school grad, be my guest. I won’t miss you very much.
What a sad vision you have for America’s future and its people: The vast majority of us stuck in low-paying menial jobs. No thanks, I won’t vote for that. Pop Rabbit grew up on a farm but went to college in the Depression and spent his life in a professional occupation; I’m glad he had the opportunity to do that. I put myself through college and law school, with the help of government-insured student loans and the G.I. Bill, and realized my childhood dream of growing up to be a lawyer and judge; I’m glad I had the opportunity to do that. I don’t want your vision for America, and I won’t vote for your ideology or party.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@108 Considering that the very poor in this state pay 5 1/2 times as much of their income to state and local taxes as the rich pay, your words aren’t merely hollow, they’re silly to the point of being childish.
Roger Rabbit spews:
@109 “I have better things to do than chat with strangers.”
Judging by the amount of time you spend defecating in this blog, you don’t.
Roger Rabbit spews:
107, 110 — It’s so emblematic of your type that you can’t even mock me without lying about what I said, which is that I’ll settle for a revenue-neutral, flat-rate, state income tax that replaces the state sales tax and B & O tax. If you thought about this for about 3 seconds, you’d realize this tax reform would provide major tax relief to businesses, especially small start-up businesses.
Roger Rabbit spews:
Show me a Republican and I’ll show you a liar who believes in neither God nor country, but serves only himself and his own bank account, and doesn’t give a damn about anything or anybody else.
Mr. Cynical spews:
75. Proud To Be An Ass spews:
I said cut pay 10% dumbass. You love to make stuff up…and do so repeatedly…like your President.
Mr. Cynical spews:
107. Crusader spews:
That’s pretty funny.
ALL the millonaires would leave…with all the Private jobs. At least then, the Progressives could have their dream of everyone working for the guv’mint!
Roger Rabbit spews:
Apart from the other idiotic aspects of Lost’s arguments against higher education, it’s completely lost on him (intentional pun) that our public colleges are already largely self-supporting and receive only minor financial support from state taxes.
Max Rockatansky spews:
@118..if thats the case, then the state cutting back its funding of higher education would not have much impact…so why the fuss?
Roger Rabbit spews:
@119 The state is cutting back its funding of higher education, and has been for years. Lost is the one who’s raising the fuss about public colleges costing the state.
(Since he didn’t get a degree, he thinks no one else should have one, either. An attitude which is indistinguisable from a 3-year-old deliberately breaking a toy because if he can’t have it then his brother can’t have it either.)
Roger Rabbit spews:
Hey, why not use a market model? Charge well-off families whatever the market will bear, and use the profits to provide grants to poor students. In other words, if the true cost of a public college education is $30,000 a year, but you can get affluent families to pony up $50,000 a year because their kids are too stupid or lazy to get into an Ivy League school costing $50,000 a year (after all a U.W. degree is still better than no degree), why stop at $30K? Why not charge them the full-bore fifty? And make a profit that you can use to help the kids who don’t have 30 grand? Is this what conservatives believe in?
Roger Rabbit spews:
@121 Just ask yourself, “what would Ayn Rand do?”, and you’ll know what to do.
lostinaseaofblue spews:
Re 120
I have 5 brothers and sisters. All of them have college degrees. Some make more money, most don’t. Most of us enjoy what we do to make our living, none more than I or much less.
Unlike most liberals they don’t envy me my income or enjoyment of my job. We simply realize that different people take different paths.
Having said that one of two things is true. Either you’re intentionally deflecting the argument to me to distract from your basic lack of logical support for your position, or you simply can’t grasp the fairly simple concept I advanced. I hope it’s the former, as you seem semi-intelligent, but fear it’s the latter.
Crusader spews:
I say let’s string up the wealthy and confiscate ALL their ill-gotten wealth. It’s time to put up or shut up! Progressives are ANGRY and are not going to take it anymore! Rabbit Droppings to lead the Bolshevik march on Medina!
John Alexander spews:
Educational salaries for professors and administrators have lost touch with reality. The price of education should be based on what normal people can afford. In other words, what the market will bear. If the price gets too high that people can’t afford it, games should NOT be played to make the cost of education more affordable to the middle class. University costs are as bad as medical costs, they’ve exceeded the rate of inflation for quite a while now. Why should we spend 60% of our budget on education? It’s getting ridiculous. The UW and other universities are taking advantage of the public. If the normal person can’t afford an unsubsidized college education, then it’s the college that is too expensive, not that the funding mechanism needs to be tweaked.
Puddybud identifies feckless ylb arschoch as a boob spews:
Ask headless lucy. Ayn is their hero.
United Faculty spews:
A few facts about state universities in Washington:
1. Washington ranks 46th in the nation in 4-year college participation rates.
2. Washington ranks 48th in the nation in total funding (state appropriations plus tuition) for its state universities.
3. Salaries for faculty and staff at Washington’s state universities range in the 30th to 40th percentile of national averages.
4. If you fired all the university presidents and their bloated salaries you would save less than 1% of the amount of the last budget cut to the universities.
5. Washington has the 3rd highest percentage of people with bachelors degrees or above in the nation.
6. Washington is the 3rd largest importer of people with bachelors degrees and above in the nation.
7. The long-standing decline in state support for universities ensures that the people unfortunate enough to grow up in Washington will end up working for people from other states who are happy to move here with their degrees that were funded by Ohio, Indiana, or Texas.
8. The rising cost of college is a direct result of steadily declining state support over the last 20 years.
http://www.ufws.org/blog