When Gov. Chris Gregoire unveiled her proposed two-year state budget a couple weeks back, the Seattle Times editorial board echoed the criticism of state Republicans, calling it “too high” and “unsustainable.” Oh, don’t get them wrong — the Times liked most of the spending priorities in Gov. Gregoire’s new budget — they just don’t want to pay for them:
Much of this has our support. But a 12.2-percent increase in spending compared with a 7.7 percent expected growth in revenues is too much. It is unsustainable on its face.
My immediate response was to point out that the projected budget shortfall was not due to out out-of-control spending but rather an antiquated tax system that is not only the most regressive in the nation, but is structurally incapable of producing revenue growth adequate to meet the demands of our state’s growing economy. I argued that Washington is not a high tax state, and that measured as a percentage of personal income, state and local taxes have steadily decreased since I moved here in 1992.
Well, now I have some current statistics to back me up, and it turns out that far from a dramatic expansion, state government under Gov. Gregoire’s proposed budget is actually shrinking as percentage of the state economy.
A summary analysis by the Washington State Budget & Policy Center describes Gov. Gregoire’s budget as “a modest step towards the kind of state Washingtonians want to live in,” and clearly shows that general fund spending under Gregoire is merely following the same trend established during the 1990s.
The Times would have you believe that it is Gov. Gregoire’s proposed 12.2-percent spending increase that is the anomaly, but in fact it was actually the slower spending growth during the national recession and tepid recovery that fell below historical growth levels. Gov. Gregoire’s budget merely returns the state to the established trend.
Indeed, as a share of the total state economy, Gov. Gregoire’s budget actually represents a reduced investment — a smaller share of state resources than any of the six budgets that directly precede it.
Anti-government/anti-tax critics can spout all the want about rising spending and per-capita tax increases, but those numbers are entirely meaningless when taken out of context… as they usually are. Read the academic literature and you will find that the most common metric used in comparative studies of government spending, and for analyzing the relative growth of both expenditures and revenues, is spending/taxation as a percentage of personal income.
The reason is twofold. First, the economic metric that most closely tracks long term growth in demand for government services is growth in total personal income. That is because many of the services provided by the government are commodities, and as personal income increases, so does consumption. As our state grows wealthier, demand for government services increases faster than population plus inflation.
The other reason to focus on personal income is that it is the only metric that tracks individual taxpayers’ ability to pay. The state invests in things like transportation and education and law enforcement — investments that provide the infrastructure necessary for our economy to grow and for all our citizens to prosper. A spending increase, even when accompanied by an increase in marginal tax rates, does not increase the burden on individual taxpayers if it results in a corresponding increase in personal income.
There is a legitimate debate to be had over the proper size and scope of government, and the priority in which we make public investments. But it is fundamentally dishonest to enter this debate by reinforcing the common misconception that our state government is growing, when by the most meaningful measure — the government’s total share of our state’s economic resources — even Gov. Gregoire’s proposed 12.2 percent increase represents a decline from historic trends.
So let’s have an honest debate.
While I feel that we as individuals probably pay more tax than we need to just to cover up a bloated beuracracy I do believe taxes are necessary.
My concern, with what I’ve heard from actually talking with representatives during the election cycle, is the over arching theme of a blended State income tax with a State sales tax. For me it’s either one or the other. Having a “blend” leaves two avenues open for our “leaders” to raise taxes. The state needs a lot they max the allowable bump in income tax. They need a little the just “tweak” the sales tax.
And if we do go to a State income tax model then let’s be an example for the nation and use flat percentages with absolutely no loopholes. And while I sympathize with people that want to be able to write every darn thing off I also know from being in the business world that individuals and companies have way too much leeway in what they can get away with writing off. Additionally if there are no loopholes, etc. there is much less of an opportunity for people to cheat which means income to the state goes up and audit cost are reduced. I don’t think a State income tax is a Utopea (just talk to residents in states that have one) but I do think that if it is done correctly (ie sans politics) it can be not only more equitable to individuals but also more profitable for the State.
@1 Which state bureaucracies do you think are “bloated?” It’s easy to talk like this in generalities, but quite different to identify specific agencies and activities for cuts. Over the last few years GOP state legislators, challenged to do so, continued to mouth platitudes about “bloated bureaucracy” but offered no specific cuts.
What should be eliminated from Gregoire’s budget? The new prison at Coyote Ridge? (That would require mandating more lenient sentencing by judges, and put more criminals on our streets.) Which school do you want to close early, which classrooms do you want to remove teachers from? Should we carry indigent elderly nursing home patients out to the curb, to wait for family members to pick them up?
Depending on what spending is being counted, some of the “spending growth” being decried consist of federal matching or grant funds. Should we return that money, so it’ll be spent by some other state?
I’ve worked in, and observed, state government for many years. If you think state goverment is spending too much, show me where to cut. Be specific.
Let’s see:
-We can start with the multitude of special interest semi-funded lobby groups.
-We can move to an all open bid public construction model.
-We can move to privatize park maintenance contracts via the bid model as well.
-Merit pay for public employees instead of C.O.L.A.
-Binding audits
-State and local govt. vehicles only during work hours. I’m so sick of seeing govt4321 cars carting kids home. Look it is a real inconvenience to have to plan your day and drive your OWN vehicle in to work and make sure that you get home in time to do whatever but everybody else does it on their dime and so should state workers. And yes I saw it in my on department, lived next to a social worker AND also a police officer, both of whom had the luxury of bringing their “govt” or “xmpt” cars home. Also who had the audacity to brag (knowingly or not) how nice it is not to have to pay for gas or insurance.
It is the multidude of little things that add up. I am not in favor (obviously) of cutting huge amounts out of govt. funding. I am in favor of spending our money wisely.
I too have worked in the govt. sector and there is bloat there. People that were “managers” but with nothing to manage or any people to manage. They were individual contributors given a management title to favor them with a higher pay scale their experience and position did not merit. And if you honestly did work in govt. then you know exactly what I’m talking about there. Sectors with huge fleets of cars that due to budget regulations could not even be loaned to other departments but sat idle approx. 80% of the time.
Now there are going to be things that I probably think are excessive that somebody else can argue merit for but there are definetely things that can be done better, leaner, cheaper, etc.
Don’t get me wrong; while I’m not a huge Gregoire fan and didn’t vote for her I don’t think she is doing a bad job. I will disagree with her many times but I would with anybody in that position because nobody can do exactly what any of us wants all the time. Performanced base teacher pay. I’ll never see that from a democrat. And maybe not a republican either, but it should be done in my opinion.
These graphs and numbers and big words are hurting my brain. I need a Percoset and a fistful of Darvon.
I worked thirty years in city government and I have to reluctantly agree that the guaranteed salary does attract a lot of employees who seem not to want to earn it. Being sort of a workaholic myself – one who actually gave time to get a job done . . . it was irritating to see so many people sitting on their butts.
Now, I’m a teacher. I still work many more hours than I get paid for. But, the notion of merit pay in teaching is unrealistic. Teachers in schools where kids come from middle class families make teachers make teachers look so good. Teachers caught in the at-risk schools have to make super-human efforts to teach well . . .
Actually, it can be done and there are teachers out there doing it. But, until you attract more of those absolutely awesome teachers, you will never get god teaching in those schools as the rules rather than the exception.
Teachers, government employees, employees in private business – you get good and bad in all three. At least in private business, those people don’t last as long.
Also, opening up government to open big . . . well, I work in a school built by lowest bid. My school will need rebuilding in twenty-five years. You heard it here first. I hope I’m still around to see it. It is a piece of junk.
Of course, built by the profit-motive private contractor – lowest bid.
Sorry for all the typos and grammar lapses . . .I really need to preview first!
@5
I understand the teaching aspect. I come from a family of them. I also understand schools performance and student performance in poorer neighborhoods (oh in our PC world those would be “underserved” schools). So I get your point there. I would still like to see it happen. There has to be a good way to implement it.
As to the open bid process. It can absolutely work and work well. The trail around Green Lake is a phenominally good example. Open bid was considered and then discarded as an option. The trail was built. Two contractors were upset that they didn’t get the opportunity and one of them took the had taken the time to put a bid together (can’t remember the name but the story was in the news). The private sector contractors bid was for less money, in a shorter time span with superior materials and included performance based incentives and sanctions. Now I know that is just one example and that good and bad exist on both sides, but we should be putting the state bid up against private bids every time.
Neither is perfect. Employees in government agencies really have too many guarantees to stay hungry and work hard; private entities have too many opportunities to be greedy and unethical. I’m not sure which is better . . .
To be honest, I’m not sure just what the solution is.
MTR’s Moonbat Rules for tax reform:
1) Don’t call it a tax. Be sure to call it an “investment”.
2) Be sure to say that the tax structure will be “fair”.
3) Make sure that it’s a blend of both sales tax and income tax that is “revenue neutral.”
4) Give iron clad assurances that the rates will NEVER creep up; that’s it’s only to stablize gummint revenue. Taxes would only be raised in an emergency such as building pro sports stadiums.
5) Make mention of the necessity for the winners of life’s lottery to “give back.”
Go back to your choo-choo train, Mark. You’re better with Lionel’s than with facts . . .
Skagit invited me to call him at his place of work when he posted the following:
skagit says:
“…You truly need my help. Call me . . . 253-850-3371
12/24/2006 at 3:30 pm
I googled the phone number and found it was for the Education Station on Kent’s East Hill. http://www.edukstation.com/home.html The owner of the schools is someone named Emilie Bonney. Skagit may be Ms. Bonney or perhaps is an employee.
From the Education Station website,they have this mission statement:
Emilie Bonney’s mission with Education Station is to bring success, ease, and joy to her students. Students of all ages learn effective skills and strategies to apply to their work, school, recreation, and lives. By realizing their gifts and (for some) dissolving their learning and doing blocks, they become increasingly confident and happy.
In response to a post I made, skagit responded:
Ah, Mark, your testosterone is showing again. I can only hope you get a really big case of cancer, your kidneys go, and and it metastizes to the brain . . . you use us all your health account, you can’t work and you lose you income, and your kids and wife (as if anyone would even consider becoming your spouse) become homeless.
Yes, I find it very easy to wish that upon a misanthrope like you. You deserve it.
How many of you think skagit has “effective skills and strategies to apply to his work and life”? Is wishing sickness, death, poverty, and homelessness on others one of those skills?
How many of you think that skagit has a “doing block”?
I need you moonbats to weigh in on this: How many of you would send your kids to the Education Station on Kent’s East hill when one of the staff members there is so narrow minded that he can’t even discuss viewpoints that disagree with his. How many of you would want your kids to be taught be someone who wishes sickness, death, and poverty on those with whom he disagrees.
Are people like skagit who we want teaching our kids?
Still wondering, Mark, what’s plan b? What are you’re wife and daddyless kiddies going to do when their favorite train engineer is dead and buried and they are penniless? Hmm?
RCGuy at 3: Performanced base teacher pay. I’ll never see that from a democrat. And maybe not a republican either, but it should be done in my opinion.
Who would detertime merit pay and what would your criteria be?
god! make that determine!
Goldy your problem is that the words “honest debate” and “republicans” don’t belong on the same page. The rethugs don’t EVER want an honest debate. The reason is simple; they’d looooose.
Your post offers facts and facts always cause the inbred righties to implode because they get in the way of the repub ideals.
As for state budget priorities, let’s start reducing government NOW. Let’s do away with all victimless crimes and the money we spend to lock people up can be saved giving EVERY resident a tax rebate. Of course this means the righties so-called “MORAL MAJORITY” based agenda would take a big hit and they don’t want responsible or small government when it comes to THEIR precious corporate welfare or prisons.
“We can move to an all open bid public construction model.”
Can you explain this, please, mr rcguy? Are you saying public construction is not currently “open bid”?
Furthermore, your croak against public “managers” feasting at the taxpayer’s trough is simply bullshit unless you name names. Otherwise you are just bloviating.
You wanna’ see waste? Read Delbert, a comic strip that reflects reality.
Vagina Lips: I note the term “honest debate” still eludes you–what a fucking moron.
@3 OK, fair enough — I asked for specific examples and you offered some. My response, point by point:
“-We can start with the multitude of special interest semi-funded lobby groups.”
I’m in favor of cutting of BIAW from L&I taxes intended for injured workers. I can’t think of any other lobby groups that receive public moneys.
“We can move to an all open bid public construction model.”
I’m not sure what you’re referring to, as Washington law for many decades as required competitive bidding for public works contracts, with certain sensible exceptions (such as very small projects where the cost of conducting a bid process would exceed any possible savings).
“-We can move to privatize park maintenance contracts via the bid model as well.”
Sorry, I don’t buy the argument that the private sector can provide equivalent services for less. They can’t buy materials and supplies for less than the state can, and unlike the Parks and Recreation Department, they tack on a profit margin that adds to total costs. Experience with outsourcing, generally, has tended to show that it fails to produce the touted cost savings and often results in higher costs and spotty or lower quality. In the case of parks maintenance, instead of complaining to your state legislator about problems in state parks and getting action, you’ll have to complain to a private contractor who doesn’t have to listen to legislators or anyone else, and the only leverage public officials have to resolve complaints is to award the contract to someone else the next time it comes up for review.
“-Merit pay for public employees instead of C.O.L.A.”
The merit pay argument is bullshit. There is no such thing as merit pay in goverment, because pay awards that are left to the discretion of supervisors or agency managers are always awarded based on favoritism or politics, not work performance. That’s why public unions consistently oppose merit pay proposals. In addition, the state has to recruit and retain workers in a competitive labor market; state pay is already very low in relation to the private sector; and denying state workers COLAs will simply increase turnover and recruitment and training costs.
“-Binding audits”
I’m not sure what you mean by “binding” but if you’re arguing in favor of trying to save money by letting people outside the agency micromanage or interfere with agency management, I would respond that’s unworkable and the best people to manage the agency are those hired to do so who work at it full time and are familiar with the agency’s unique program and management issues.
“-State and local govt. vehicles only during work hours. I’m so sick of seeing govt4321 cars carting kids home. Look it is a real inconvenience to have to plan your day and drive your OWN vehicle in to work and make sure that you get home in time to do whatever but everybody else does it on their dime and so should state workers. And yes I saw it in my on department, lived next to a social worker AND also a police officer, both of whom had the luxury of bringing their ‘govt’ or ‘xmpt’ cars home. Also who had the audacity to brag (knowingly or not) how nice it is not to have to pay for gas or insurance.”
“State law already prohibits personal use of state and municipal vehicles. If you see violators, are you turning them in? More likely you are misinterpreting the situation. In some cases, it is efficacious and/or cost effective to have certain employees take agency vehicles home because of the nature of their job. Social workers are a good example, because they are basically on call 24-7 and it is important that they be able to respond quickly when they get a call to intervene in a child abuse or neglect situation. In some cases, the child may end up dead if action is not taken very quickly.
The overwhelming majority of state employees use their own vehicles on the job and get reimbursed for official travel on a mileage basis. They are NOT reimbursed for commuting mileage.
Police officers are on call (i.e., available for duty) 24 hours a day and that’s why they take police cars home with them. You can’t use a private vehicle for police work because it’s not equipped with sirens, lights, police markings, etc.
Certainly, it is bad form for a public employee using a state vehicle to “brag” about saving money on insurance, etc. from use of the official vehicle. That’s horrible public relations, and in my opinion merits corrective instruction from agency management, but it doesn’t cost the taxpayers any money. However, given the sensitivity of average citizens to the tax burdens they bear, I certainly would take corrective action with the employee in that situation.
@16
Are you a govt. employee? If you are then you are “feasting” quote is an utter lie because I know you would see the same thing I have. But that’s fine. Maybe you are one of those managers w/ nothing to manage and no direct reports and your pissed because I tweaked you? Who knows and who cares.
I’m giving you my experience. My post was actually pretty fair since I base it on reality and experience and not some, “oh no that can’t be true” wish like you.
@17
Good points Rabbit.
By open bid I meant any qualified company. If I understand correctly there are only certain companies that are allowed to actually bid on contracts. Also there are certain rules about wages forced on any company that wins a bid regardless of the pay model that company has.
Binding audits = If the state auditor comes in and finds an issue and makes a recommendation that advice needs to be acted on.
The merit pay argument we will probably continue to disagree on. Private and publicly held companies use merit increases all the time. That can be as little as “met expectations” or as granular as task be task evaluation. It can be a combination as well; guaranteed small increase for everybody, and if you excel an extra x% or .x%.
I’ll give you most of the take home vehicle argument just becasue I don’t know all the circumstances of every person using a vehicle that they take home. I can tell you in the case above of the police officer it was a Woodenville officer that lives in Edmonds and the public employee was a manager within the city of Edmonds that constantly used “his” vehicle as his personal vehicle. Running errands, taking it home, hauling stuff on the weekend. Yes it was known, no, nobody did jack about it even though there were numerous complaints.
That’s as close to naming names as I’ll get though.
RCguy . . . please respond to Rabbit’s points and mine on how to determine merit pay for teachers.
sorry, rcguy, posts passed in the blogosphere.
It does sound as if you’re knowledge of government policies is a little deficient. Not an insult . . . but an observation. Regarding open bids: taking bids from just anybody without prior scrutiny is a bad idea. Choosing from companies that meet minimum requirements (even hiring requirements) seems to me to be prudent. Hopefully, that will help us avoid a big dig fiasco.
re: teacher’s pay.
WA already has a common form of performance & merit pay increases. It’s been 30 years since I ratted into any of this stuff, but . . . .
Remembering . . . a first year teacher with a baccalaureate degree has XX time to complete a 5th year . . .
. . . then XX time to earn a masters
. . . then in each XX of time the working teacher must complete some number of hours of continuing education.
I think most of that is still reasonably accurate. And each of these performance criterion leads to pay & retains tenure. Correct?????
That’s just a start. There are several school districts in WA & each of them sets its own standards of retention & pay schedules. I don’t think they are “uniform” or coordinated. So, if you want a raise, maybe you will need to go interview @ Elephant’s Breath Junior High in Hayseed WA or Dimwitz OR because if you’ve got the credentials, they may have a higher paying or easier or less stressful job.
It seems to me that the ragbag bullshit about teacher’s pay should have worn really thin over the last 4 decades. In fact, that’s starting to look like one of those “shut the fuck up” situations because the issue is just genuinely DEAD. Teachers have to get degrees, advance them, earn continuing credit, maintain or enhance credentials, meet new & improved standards & still show up & perform. What a concept.
So what would the detractors require? spit-shined shoes?
Oh, I know: high WASL performance by the downward drifting flotsam & jetsam from the gene pool sent into the school system. Yeah, that’s it. Let’s test them & do no child left behind & fire teachers or administrators when Bush XLIII can’t fund the new requirements.
No. I’m not a teacher, nor married to one. Just an observer of a closed, pyramidal merit system that functions at a fairly reasonable level of success.
Finally, can any of us imagine working in a school system where the offspring of people like Mark the Redneck, or anti-liberal, or Mike Webb sucks or, or . . . shows up & you have to teach the stoooopid, ill-informed, opinionated, rude, ignorant, loud-mouthed chip off the old blockhead how to read or write or cipher? All the while mom’s at home trying to sound out the words in People mag & puffing up her Texas prom queen hair while dad’s sitting near the radio listening to Lush Limpbalz or watching O’Lielly on the rube tooob. It’s hopeless, I tell you. Hopeless.
Thanks, whl. That’s a point of view (the constant recredentialing) I hadn’t thought of. Yes, teachers now have to continue re-crediting their credentials: five credits every five years or they are out. (That is 30hours of work a year) and they don’t get time off for it, it isn’t employer paid.
Such an easy job that 50% leave in five years and new teachers are leaving the state and District for higher paying schools.
What’s funny is my mother and my aunt both retired from teaching; mom in Northshore and aunt down in CA. Both have the same complaints. You can’t reward (higher pay, perks, etc) the really good teachers to keep them, and you can’t get rid of the really awful ones due to the Unions.
And your argument of continuing ed is not an argument at all it just supports mine. Hey look ,,, I just finished x amount of school give me more money. Doesn’t mean that teacher is any better though does it. I do agree with them paying for it though. Just like me getting my masters or a professional cert. I know that if I get I more than likely can make more money. But I’m in the private sector so I also have to perform, no guarantee.
So skagit if I break this down correctly our system here in WA doesn’t have the pay, benefits, increases to keep the good teachers. Seems to support some effort to pay the good teachers to keep them. A teacher automatically gets a raise for completing an education milestone but doesn’t get one if they kick ass. Somebody can be barely adequate but get an increase by completing credits. Sound perfect!!!
Or I should say they get a c.o.l.a. but nothing on top of that for being superb.
Maybe we should investigate stopping any and all tax exemptions for religious organizations? Why should they get breaks? Of course the righties don’t want to see this because they want a fair playing field, except when they don’t.
Actually on another blog I proposed just that. A no loopholes tax system. Not for profit organizations? No loopholes.
It is too easy for rich people and organizations to get around our tax code. I always how the rich aren’t taxed enough and that religous orgs should be taxed. Well here’s a chance. You will never see it though because that would directly affect the pocket book of a majority of our esteemed leaders as well as the lobbying orgs that line our leaders pockets.
But mr rcguy what about organizations that just exist to give money away or help the needy? No loopholes. Even though Churches and the like are some of the biggest supporters of the poor, sick, drug addicted. No loopholes.
rc, you get what you pay for. If you’re happy with the teachers you have, then you are paying the right amount.
BTW, I still haven’t seen from you a plan on how to determine that merit pay.
And, I would be very surprised if you are in a profession that requires that you pay for all your own ed. . . you fail to mention what that profession is and I’m wondering why?
Well Seattle won THAT game of dropsy-ball, and a win is a WIN, but I have to say they don’t look like a Superbowl team.
7, 8 Nobody (except us rabbits) can sustain a maximum effort all the time. Humans have to pace themselves over a 30-year career. If you give 110% every day, you’ll burn out in no time. You have to be smart and keep something in reserve for when you, and the boss, and the public or customers you serve need it. I’m not saying “coast” and I’m certainly not saying “sleep” and yes there are underperformers in government as elsewhere. But it’s unrealistic to demand superhuman efforts every time out. You’ll get more mileage out of an employee in the end of you let them work an 8-hour day at a reasonable pace and save your demand for extraordinary effort for when it matters.
“if” not “of”
Actually I’m a Project Manager for a small software company here in Western WA and I have had to pay for every dime of my education. I don’t get reimbursed for one cent. Yes that includes the $20,000+ for a masters.
I have also never voted against a school levy. This includes before I had kids. I believe in paying our teachers well. I was fully pissed when Locke couldn’t find the money and suspended the automatic cola we voted for the teachers. Even though I’m not really COLA person I do believe in giving our teachers everything we possibly can to help them be successful.
Merit Pay. A majority of children in a classroom attain goals set by individual testing at the beginning of the year and commensurate with their expected grade level. Not really that difficult. Test the kids at the beginning of the year and measure their achievement throughout. Many schools do this already to determine if children are in the appropriate grade, reading class, math class, etc. We don’t need some complicated system, just something that works and is equitable. This would absolutely take into account teachers who are teaching in schools with lower achievement levels and challenging populations.
9, 10 Welsher is posting boilerplate from his archive so he must still be cleaning out his undies after his beloved Dallas Cowboys blew the game!
29 and 30 :)
Agreed. The Seahawks looked terrible. I fully thought they were going to end getting beaten by a last second field goal.
And completely agree.
12 Welsher’s crack-whore wife is already dead, and his kid is already penniless because his dead whore wife spent
F I V E H U N D R E D T H O U S A N D D O L L A R S
of Welsher’s vagimony on crack.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
(Yes, I know this post is mean-spirited, but no more so than the average wingnut smear … payback is a bitch!)
@30
You wouldn’t be an artist, then?
@19 I must confess to possessing only a superficial knowledge of public contracting. That is not my field. But I think it makes eminent sense to limit bidding to “qualified bidders” i.e. contractors capable of doing the job. I wouldn’t hire a one-man kitchen remodeling company to build the Tacoma Narrows Bridge even if he was the low bidder. I would limit the bidder list to companies capable of building a large suspension bridge, and there aren’t very many such companies. If you have in mind a specific example of where the “qualified bidder” list was limited to favor a particular contractor or where someone was unfairly excluded from bidding on a project I might agree with you, but some of these cases are judgment calls.
22 The situation gets even worse if the far-right radicals succeed in forcing teachers to teach anti-science and anti-civics …
@24 Well, actually, some really awful teachers DO get fired despite the unions.
@37
I’m not saying allow just anybody. Pretty sure I said all qualified bidders. Of course there would have to be some criteria.
I gave a fairly specific example about the GreenLake path.
You are right when you said earlier that the smaller jobs are better served by using the public works dept. I’m thinking along the lines of larger or lengthier jobs.
@24 “But I’m in the private sector so I also have to perform, no guarantee.”
This is the crux. Private sector folks accustomed to judging performance by sales and profit figures don’t graps that measuring performance and results in government and teaching is vastly more complicated and ambiguous. This is a primary reason why private-sector executives recruited to run government agencies usually disappoint.
When I attended graduate school in public management, I took a course on measuring the performance of public and nonprofit agencies. The concepts are not intuitive; for example, a public manager’s failure to spend his entire budget may signify failure because he is not delivering the budgeted services. Let’s say he runs a publicly-funded low-income health clinic that is given $1 million by its funding source to provide preventive health screenings to 20,000 poor children at a cost of $50 each, but the clinic provides only 15,000 health screenings and returns $250,000 of unspent budget to the funding source. That is failure, not success, because one-fourth of the target population was not served. That manager did not accomplish his assigned mission of serving 20,000 children.
It’s much harder to run a public agency or school system than a private company. I’m not saying managing a business competing in private enterprise is easy — it’s not. But public managers must …
a) comply with a plethora of laws
b) maintain good relations with legislators, higher executive authority (a governor, mayor, or city council), and the public
c) serve and professionally deal with a public who often have an adversarial relationship with the agency, such as when enforcing laws or administering public benefits
d) design and implement effective employee incentive systems in an environment where performance measures tend to be uncertain and subjective
e) they are under the same pressures — and sometimes greater pressures — than their private business counterparts to find efficiencies, deliver high quality services, and do a lot with limited (and usually inadequate) resources
… there’s more but that should give you some of the flavor of the challenges of managing a public agency or school. There are no bonuses, stock options, or any prospect of getting rich; the people who go into public service or teaching generally are motivated by unselfish desires to help others and improve society. The work is usually difficult, often unpleasant, and nearly always unappreciated and unrewarded. And there’s always too much work and not enough time to do it.
“grasp” not “graps”
We support our public schools. We need as many dumbasses we can get to vote for us.
Roger Rabbit says:
22 The situation gets even worse if the far-right radicals succeed in forcing teachers to teach anti-science and anti-civics …
you forgot anti-roll-a-rubber-on-a-cucumber.
Oh and anti-made-up-history
I should also add that public sector employment is not guaranteed employment either. Programs are terminated; agencies are downsized and even closed; skills become obsolete or are displaced by technology; and so on. A young person starting a state career tomorrow, if still in the system 30 years from now, likely will work in several agencies and numerous programs, some of which will not exist anymore by the time he/she retires.
If a boy scout completes the knot-tying course, he gets a “merit” badge. Now whether or not all Eagle Scouts can handle knots in the same fashion as a USNavy bosun’s mate is up for grabs. And whether the Eagle Scout can teach knots is almost a wild assed guess. But the merit has been established.
If GI Joe/Jane serves XX months in a military branch, holds paygrade x-x for so many months, passes an examination in the appropriate occupational specialty, then he or she or it gets promoted to the next paygrade–barring disciplinary action. This establishes the merit of that GI. Military officers, particularly, wait through complex evaluations & cut-offs & years of service increments in order to move up the hierarchy.
Now then . . . in closed pyramidal systems, merit is the most common method of advancing a person’s pay & status. It is often an accepted practice in many fields—-including education.
Nobody in the US Marine Corps gives a fat, round, brown rat’s ass whether some taxpayer or group of taxpayers approve of PFC Doofus being promoted to Lance Corporal. As a matter of fact, nobody in the Civil Service of the USA gives a slim, oval, pink rabbit’s ass whether or not some clerk in the Executive Office Building is promoted from GS-4 to GS-6 for length of service, additional education & time in grade. It’s common.
But, let some public teacher or college professor acquire an advancement based on a merit system and there are those who question the person, the system & the management. The only surprise, to me, is that anyone would listen to some silly outsider questioning the validity of a widely used, long-established “merit” system of evaluating pay, retention or promotion.
@19 “Binding audits = If the state auditor comes in and finds an issue and makes a recommendation that advice needs to be acted on.”
If you are talking about financial or accounting procedures, I agree. If you are suggesting the auditor’s office should second-guess the management of other agencies or engage in micromanaging all state, county, and city agencies, I disagree. The state auditor has neither the staff nor the expertise to do that, nor is it necessary.
The auditor’s principal functions are to establish uniform accounting procedures and systems, audit agencies’ handling of public funds, intervene in cases involving misfeasance or malfeasance; and, under the recently enacted performance audit initiative, now has some new responsibilities in the area of auditing agency effectiveness. But auditing is still auditing, it is not management or even intervention in most cases. Under performance auditing, the auditor’s office is one of several tools for improving performance monitoring and measurement. Certainly, it is a step up from the old “squeaky wheel” system of replacing agency heads if there were too many complaints. It is based on the idea of teaching agencies how to do things right instead of simply correcting them after things go wrong. That is all it can do, and is what it’s intended to do.
@48
Financial/Accounting and the correction if issues raised in the auditing procedure.
@47
–The only surprise, to me, is that anyone would listen to some silly outsider questioning the validity of a widely used, long-established “merit” system of evaluating pay, retention or promotion. —
You’re right; nobody should ever question, query, criticize, offer solutions, ever. Just go with the flow. Nothing to see here, move on.
And again with WA hemmorrhaging teachers how’s that system working out for us? horse,dead,beaten
@19 “I’ll give you most of the take home vehicle argument just becasue I don’t know all the circumstances of every person using a vehicle that they take home. I can tell you in the case above of the police officer it was a Woodenville officer that lives in Edmonds and the public employee was a manager within the city of Edmonds that constantly used “his” vehicle as his personal vehicle. Running errands, taking it home, hauling stuff on the weekend. Yes it was known, no, nobody did jack about it even though there were numerous complaints.”
I think it’s harder to get action on these complaints at the municipal level because you’re up against the “city hall old boy” system. Municipal departments tend to be small, unscrutinized, and less vigilant in complying with these things than, say, large state agencies.
There are state agencies where employees are micromanaged to the verge of suffocating them. State agencies fire people for infractions considered trivial elsewhere. A good example is using the “n” word; that’s guaranteed termination. In government, mailing a personal letter in an official envelope to avoid paying 39 cents for a stamp not only gets you fired but prosecuted. Government is a different culture with its own rules and taboos.
And don’t imagine for a moment there are no consequences for bad outcomes, poor judgment, or even innocent mistakes. It takes very little to derail a government career. You may not be fired, but a wrong move can get you shunted to a dead-end job from which there will be no transfer or promotion. It’s their way of saying you’re unwanted. And there’s no experience quite like working under a supervisor who was put in his position as a punishment …
And, of course, if you’re in a policymaking or decision making job, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. No matter what you do, somebody will hate you. Frequently, your official action pleases no one and everyone wants your head on a platter. In private business, all you have to do is produce sales or profits — or get fired. Working in government, sometimes people hate you for doing your job, and getting fired would be a blessing.
@51 Some agencies assign a particular supervisor to a particular office because they want to punish both the supervisor and the employees in that office …
@49 We already have that.
At this point, let me discuss an issue raised by Republicans against Gregoire in the ’04 campaign — i.e., her office missing an appeal deadline.
Gregoire supervised an office employing over 1,000 people and nearly 500 lawyers — in effect, the state’s largest law firm. There were a couple of deputy AGs and over a dozen division chiefs with supervisors below them. In other words, there were several layers of management between Gregoire and the lawyer who missed the appeal deadline. As I recall, the lawyer was fired and the lawyer’s supervisor was relieved or reassigned. In other words, Gregoire’s organization did exactly what all other organizations do when employees fuck up — it disciplined the employees.
In my opinion, you can’t ask more than that from any manager. The tricky part is knowing who to fire, and who to “re-educate.” I don’t think Tony Romo is going to lose his Dallas Cowboys quarterback contract because he dropped the snap on the minute-to-go field goal attempt this afternoon, but I imagine that a couple muffs of that magnitude by a less prominent player in a less key position might well result in free agency. But then again, maybe not, depending on management’s perception of the player’s overall quality.
Years ago, a read a story in a business magazine about an IBM manager who made a mistake that cost the company $10 million. He was summoned to the company president’s office, where he received a most unpleasant dressing-down. When it finally ended, a dead silence ensued. Finally, the manager said, “Well?”
“Well what?” the president replied.
“Well, aren’t you going to fire me?”
The president responded, “No. I can’t afford to fire you. I’ve got $10 million invested in your education.”
The point of the story, and the reason for publishing it, is that the manager stayed with IBM, later redeemed himself, and ultimately had a successful career. He was kept despite the fumble because his superiors sized him up as a player with the potential to more than repay what his mistake had cost them.
That’s exactly right mrrcguy @ 50. Nobody does or should give a shit about an outsider’s opinion of the merit pay systems used by the various school districts in WA. As I wrote back at 22, this a very much a shut the fuck up issue.
I know for a fact that PFC SadSack was promoted to Lance Corporal. So . . . I call the Commandant of the Marine Corps & tell him that SadSack is a goldbrick, a moper & a shirker. Guess what the answer is . . . doh!!! Or how ’bout if we call our good ol’ buddy George W. Bush & tell him that the new Commander CentCom, Admiral Fox Fallon, is a schmuck who couldn’t find Iraq on a globe & got all of those stars on his epaulets in the chow line at Naval Base, Pearl Harbor, HI?
Or try this on for size: “Dear Gov. Gregoire [carriage return, capital] ‘Trooper Hymen Z Busted was recently promoted to Sergeant in the WA State Patrol. This person is a fool, a jerk-off & wrote me a ticket for 3rd degree stupid. I don’t care if Trooper Busted finished 74th in the practical & 76th in the written examination for the rank of Sergeant & was rated 75th overall in a group where the top 75 were promoted. You are attempting to run a meritocracy & I want a ________’ [need something in the blank, right?], and I’m going to write my State Senator.”
Yeah, like someone is going to send a kindly reply to that. There is an established system. The education folks who leave don’t like the low pay & the high requirements for teaching in the Puget Sound region. Most excellent, so they go to Orygun or Kalifornicate or Arizoney & become way more happier—-until WA raises the pay or lowers the expectations. Or maybe they go sell cars at a mouse house & earn twice as much as they ever did teaching.
Holy hell, even Patty Murray became a US Senator rather than keep teaching in WA. [Insert the rabbit’s circle ‘c’ laughtrack here.]
50 That’s a thought-provoking comment. On one hand, outside criticism of public agencies is our rightm, and sometimes of great value; on the other hand, not all criticism is equally valid or useful. Scientists re-evaluate quantum theories but don’t re-invent the wheel; some things are proven and trustworthy, while others are experimental, evolving, or even mistaken. (Want to have some fun? Try discussing Bush’s Iraq policy using this approach.) I tend to side with those who assert the “just-trust-us-we-know-what-we’re-doing” approach to public policy is a proven pathway to hell.
56 The military is not immune to promoting people beyond their abilities, but some things are not amenable to either litigation or interminable debate.
@56 “Or how ’bout if we call our good ol’ buddy George W. Bush & tell him that the new Commander CentCom, Admiral Fox Fallon, is a schmuck who couldn’t find Iraq on a globe & got all of those stars on his epaulets in the chow line at Naval Base, Pearl Harbor, HI?”
Dare we hope he is not a Joffre or a Dyer? History teaches us that giving a military officer high rank and great responsibility is proof against neither thick-headedness nor sycophantism.
the only thing that is shriking is her husbands dick
56 “Holy hell, even Patty Murray became a US Senator rather than keep teaching in WA. [Insert the rabbit’s circle ‘c’ laughtrack here.]”
Pays better, and is easier too.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR*
* (C) 2007 Roger Rabbit Laugh Tracks, JPSP.**
** Judgment-Proof Sole Proprietorship
60 Happens to all of you male humans as you age, though it seems to happen quicker and more drastically to the GOP members of your species.
@2,
Here is the very first place to start. Eliminate the Locke era subsidy to grant in-state tuition rates to children of illegal aliens.
The problem with lying liberals is they set up straw men and when you knock them over, they simply set up more. That is not honest debate.
Let’s return to RCguy’s comment about contracting out park maintenance. All of the money for this comes from user fees, not taxes, but because Parks and Recreation does get some general fund money, arguably money saved on maintenance would reduce the agency’s need for general fund money that comes from state tax revenues.
I can’t determine from state budget documents available on the Office of Financial Management’s web site how much P & R spends on park maintenance, so I’ll guess $5 million a year. Let’s assume that contracting out maintenance would produce 10% of cost savings or $500,000 a year. That’s roughly equal to 1/6000th of the state’s operating budget, only half of which comes from state taxes, so you’re talking about 1/12,000th of state tax collections. If the legislature passed the saving along to taxpayers, you would have to pay sales tax on $70,000 of retail purchases to save $1 of sales tax.
My point is that cost-cutting in small agencies wouldn’t reduce taxes by any noticeable amount. To get tax cuts, you have to cut the big spending, and there’s only three places in the state budget where there’s enough spending for cuts to have a meaningful impact on tax rates: Education, social services, and transportation. Everything else is puny by comparison. Education includes K-12 and colleges, mostly the former. The biggest item in social services is Medicaid, the majority of which is spent on indigent elderly nursing home residents who have nowhere to go. Two other sizeable items in the social services budget are vocational rehabilitation and child support collection, both of which are mandated by federal law, and paid for almost entirely with federal money that would go away if these programs went away — so you can’t save there. Social services also includes things like child protective services, foster care, juvenile prisons, and state mental hospitals. Those problems don’t go away just because you don’t like paying taxes for these programs. The juveniles and mental patients in state institutions are there because they’re dangerous. Transportation spending includes not only megaprojects like Alaska Way Viaduct and 520 bridge replacement, but state highway, county road, and bridge construction and maintenance, as well as freight mobility projects essential to our state economy — literally thousands of projects across the state.
In other words, you can’t cut taxes without cutting the big spending, and the big spending is on things we can’t do without. The fat was wrung out of the state budget years ago, and the efficiencies and cost savings that can be realized through technology investments and process improvements have already been done. There simply is not an untapped mother lode of “waste, fraud, and abuse” out there. I think it’s rather telling that in all 50 states, state taxes as a percentage of personal income fall within a rather narrow range, centering around 15% give or take about 1%. That’s because the needs, programs, and revenue and spending requirements are similar in communities all over the country, with only minor variations in priorities and costs. If there was a way to cut state spending by 50% or 25% or 10% in order to cut state taxes by equivalent amounts, it would have been done by now. There isn’t. The concept that state taxes can be reduced by slashing spending is a chimera, a will-o’-the-wisp, a myth.
Tim Eyman tried to sell the idea that state property taxes could be replaced by gambling taxes — if we legalized slots (and — he didn’t bother to mention — put up with a casino on every street corner). That, too, is a fable. As big as gambling is, there simply isn’t enough gambling revenue to tax to produce more than a few tens of millions of dollars of revenue a year. Realistically, Eyman’s initiative might have reduced an average household’s property tax by $5 a year — in the best case scenario. To reach his number of $400 million a year, every household in the state would have to spend $10,000 a year in slot machines (based on an 85% payout ratio, which is low by Las Vegas standards, and a 15% state tax on gross profits).
There just isn’t a free lunch. Living in a modern civilized society involves pooling a major percentage of our individual resources to provide community resources used by all of us: defense, police and fire, schools, prisons, courts, infrastructure, and a host of other things we collectively deem essential, as well as amenities such as sports stadiums, parks, recreation, libraries, and so on. All these things cost money and they generally don’t cost less money because private contractors instead of public employees perform the labor.
Some public employee functions can’t be delegated to the private sector because they consist of exercising governmental powers. Constitutions and laws generally prohibit delegating governmental authority to private entities.
63 “Here is the very first place to start. Eliminate the Locke era subsidy to grant in-state tuition rates to children of illegal aliens.”
How much money would that save?
@63 (continued) Here are the problems with your idea.
1. If “children of illegal aliens” are born in this country, they are U.S. citizens, and it is illegal and unconstitutional to discriminate against them because of who their parents are.
2. If we refuse to educate these children, they will not become employable adults, will not pay taxes, and will become expensive social programs (e.g., resorting to crime to make their living) that will end up costing us more for incarceration and the damage they cause than if we had educated them and prepared them to live in our society.
P.S., it’s okay with me if you ship all the illegals back to Mexico — provided you’re willing to pay three times as much for your groceries because I sure as fuck won’t pick your lettuce for you for what they get paid. Your other option is to pick it yourself.
mr rcguy: commensurate with their expected grade level. Not really that difficult
And if children tested at levels two-years behind, they are expected to reach a level commensurate with the current grade at the end of the year? That’s what you seem to be saying.
You would be a fool to expect that so I must be misunderstanding . . .
I don’t get reimbursed for one cent. Yes that includes the $20,000+ for a masters.
You misread my post. Do you have to be re-accredited every five years? If you want to see what teachers go through, perhaps you should check out the certification requiresments page- State of WA It looks to me as though only teachers are continuing to follow the apprenticeship, journeyman, craftsman mode of moving up.
I don’t think you have a clue how much schooling and how many hoops through which teachers are currently jumping. No wonder so many are leaving for little software management jobs!
I have to add one more item: your teacher relatives – like me – were credentialed sometime ago. I think they, too, have lost touch with just what teachers are currently having to do.
The one caveat I have about teachers is this: many teachers come into teaching very young. I think they need to work in the real world for a time. Experience is more valuable than teachers’ college. Also, teachers who start at twenty-four or twenty-five are looking at forty years of teaching. That’s too long. I started mid-life – obviously, since I worked at the City first. I could no more keep up the pace of teaching for forty years than I could be a top marathon runner for forty years. Teaching is like running a marathon. Coffee breaks for you are recess supervising for me.
@66,
“How much money would that save? ”
Not sure exactly, but it would show you are sincere in saving money. I said it was a place to start. What are your areas to save money?
@67,
That is the first law that needs changing. It acts as an incentive for pregnant illegals to drop on this side of the border. And the children who were not born here are getting in state tuition as well.
Ship them back home with their parents. Simple. Where are they? How do you find them? Simply wait for another pro-illegal protest and when they are all downtown marching, arrest them.
By allowing illegals amnesty, you slap the face of every legal immigrant and those waiting to legally enter.
There are illegals from other nations here too, so please don’t be racist. There is a significant illegal Irish population in the country as well.
That “no American will do the job” fable is getting old. I am surprised you would echo the lines of what you call “cheap labor conservatives”. John McCain famously said no American would pick lettuce for $50/hr. I say bullshit. I would. I know a lot who would.
When the feds raided the Swift meat packing plants in Co, there were huge lines of AMERICAN CITIZENS lined up to fill those jobs.
http://www.rockymountainnews.c.....24,00.html
The illegals don’t just pick lettuce. They also are heavy in the construction industry too. That means they take jobs from union workers.
Yes, if the price of lettuce has to be $5/lb then so be it. It is a LOT cheaper than dealing with
We do need some sort of guest worker program. But that should not come before we deal with the existing illegals here and that should be preceeding by stopping the influx as the number one priority.
When we have armed gangs from Mexico infiltrating our country in raids and our National Guard has to retreat because they were told not to shoot back, that is a disgrace.
http://www.azcentral.com/12new.....04-CR.html
PBJ eats shit must not like AHHHHHNOLD the republican governor of Cal since he is about to grant full health care to the kids of illegal aliens. Now what PBJ, will you attack a republican? Don’t hold your breath kids.
@68 & 69:
68- Don’t play the PC everybody feels good game and pass students that don’t deserve it.
1)There is a reason why there are grade levels, use them. That takes care of the first problem right there. If a student doesn’t test reasonably close to what is expected put them back. Passing somebody that isn’t ready for the next grade level doesn’t help them and it penalizes everybody in the next class that person is in.
2)How do you think we in the business world stay current and keep our jobs or get promotions; it’s called continuing education. Are you that much of a fool that you think that once you are in the private sector you never have to learn another thing? I think you are. Masters, PMP certs, Lean Modeling, RAD, RUP everytime something new or more current comes out it’s back to school or massive amounts of reading. A new programming technology or process? AJAX, JAVA, .NET jeez you’re ignorant. You are the one that has been out of the general workplace for so long that you have lost touch. And it shows that you worked at the “City” and then moved to teaching. Private industry is much different than a govt. job. Not to say a govt. or city job is a walk in the park but technology, advancements, techniques change much more quickly in the private sector and if you don’t keep up it won’t be years before you are antiquated but months.
3)My mother is still a sub, she has only retired in the last 2 years so yes my understanding is current. It sounds as if your understanding of the private business world is what is lacking. No after re-reading your post it doesn’t sound, it is obvious.
Illegal Irish immigrants? Yer killin’ me. Ireland is enjoying a jobs surge. Shoot, even Pickle-Brain Joe could get a job in Ireland.
See, that’s the problem with rightwing trolls. They’re using data from 1847.
@70 “What are your areas to save money?”
It’s no different than running a business or a household, pbj. Set priorities; use resources wisely; identify and implement efficiencies; supervise employees; monitor results … this is the stuff of daily management, and is what public managers do.
Why do some folks assume public agencies are run by incompetents and poorly managed? And we hear the same people tell us private companies are always well run, and can always do a better job. That’s the mark of an ideologue who is more interested in pushing a political agenda than in the truth of the matter.
71 You have all the answers, and all the answers are simple and easy, right?
Let’s be clear what we’re talking about. Washington, like a number of other states, has adopted legislation that allows undocumented aliens to qualify for resident tuition at state colleges and universities provided they satisfy these conditions:
1. Graduate from a Washington high school, or attend at least three years of high school in Washington,
2. Apply for permanent residence and “engage in activities necessary to acquire citizenship prior to completing a certificate or degree program,” and
3. Take any civics or citizenship courses required for U.S. citizenship.
In other words, they have to be Washington residents who got their secondary education in this state AND seek legal residency AND intend to become and take the necessary steps to become citizens.
This bill passed by large majorities in both houses, which means a significant number of Republican legislators also voted for it.
I simply disagree with you. I think it’s a reasonable law.
71 (continued) If we’re going to start using status as a basis to determine access to public education and services, then how about if we start by kicking Republicans out of public restrooms so the rest of us aren’t exposed to loathesome diseases … :)
73 You slide rule boys think you know all the answers, don’t you? What if there is a disconnect between WASL and what kids actually need to learn? What if WASL is a poorly written test that doesn’t accurately measure what kids know?
When I was an undergraduate, I took a geography course in which the final exam consisted of 4-part multiple choice questions. According to statistical science, a group of monkeys pushing answer buttons should get approximately 25% of the answers correct by random guessing. This was a large class — about 300 students — of mostly upperclassmen and the average score on that exam was 28%. That tells you something’s wrong with the test, not the students. It’s absurd to think none of those experienced students with several years of college studies under their belt who had successfully passed examinations in other subjects under other instructions had slacked their studies or didn’t understand the material. The test was fucked up. The questions were poorly written, ambiguous, asked about material that was never covered in the course, and so on.
Many of the same criticisms have been leveled at WASL. Countless parents and educators have complained that WASL is flawed. Why should kids be penalized or held back because the test writers didn’t do their job properly? Why should anyone place any reliance on a test that doesn’t accurately test the kids’ knowledge?
@74 That’s only half the trouble with conservatives … the other half is they’re using ideology from 1847, too.
re 69: Another way that I try to explain what it’s like to be, say , a high school teacher, is that it’s like doing the Johnny Carson show, 5 times a day for, 5 days a week — and that’s not counting all the stuff you have to do out of the classroom.
And you do all this for about $40,000 a year. It’s not worth it.
My first ten years was with Eastman Kodak – that’s about as private as it gets.
I think you are quite arrogant about what you think you know. Sounds to me like your knowledge is based on two teachers and a software job. Not much.
Of course, everybody keeps learning because technology and teaching changes. But, to assume that you are smarter than everyone else and can solve it all with a few sound bites and belief in retention disputes an awful lot of research saying otherwise.
But, I’m sure we are all just stupid people who don’t get it. Perhaps your mother is the failure. Perhaps she wants everybody to be on grade and perfect to make her job easier. That’s a possibility we’ll probably never know. Northshore is a pretty fancy neighborhood compared to Seattle.
I have friends teaching out there . . . in fact, Northshore pays their instructional aides $18,000 tops a year – at least they did a few years ago. At that time, Seattle paid theirs $26,0000. Teachers in Northshore get more; teachers in Seattle get less. Actually, I agree with the Northshore scale as teachers carry all the responsibility. Also, Seattle secretaries are the highest paid in the state. Seattle has some real issues around pay.
Also, to compare city work with teaching is a pretty poor comparison. Do you really think teachers sit at desks all day?
But, that doesn’t legitimize your very naive notions about teaching. Until you actually do it, you will continue to promulgate your fantasy about teaching. As do most people who haven’t and won’t try it, you will think you have all the answer.
You know, I think developing software is nothing more than playing games all day. Sounds like fun to me.
Headless: We have on our hands another conservative know-it-all. He will not change his mind. It is black and white with these people.
Shrew I mean @76 and 77:
Riiiight. Looks like we have a liberal who thinks their experience invalidates every other experience anybody else has ever had. Talk about black and white. Here I am discussing my “my” experiences and pointing out the differences in “my” experience. Giving ideas that may or may not work and you as a “nuanced” liberal hands down disregard all of it becuase, wait for it, you have had a different experience. OMG you mean there is more than one set of circumstances out there? There is more than one opinion? There might be even more than one solution?
But since you are the know it all and you think our education system and all it entails here in WA is so vaunted it is no wonder it is where it is.
Your lame, pathetic, excuse for reasoning over the past day has proven every flipping point I’ve made and only made you look foolishly close minded. Black and White indeed.
Over the last day you’ve done everything to try to invalidate (poorly) anything I’ve offered as possible solutions or my experience. You have offered absolutely NOTHING of value. No suggestions only pathetic whining about how hard your job is or status quo platitudes. And then at the end when I didn’t think that you could look any more foolish you cry to a cohort and try to deflect your own ignorance by trying to lay your black and white thinking on me. It’s classic lefty. I won’t say liberal because I have amazing conversations and brainstorming sessions with liberals. They think. This is lefty you’ve been thought for. No room in your brain for either compromise or collaboration.
@78
I don’t agree with using the WASL as a measuring stick. Standardized tests like that don’t actually seem fair to me. What I was trying to say was each grade level has expected valuation on what students are either expected to know coming in or on completion of that level. Use those requirements. You know like when we were in school.
It seems that schools have standards in place already when it comes to testing or expected knowledge. I want success for our kids and being stigmatized by a single test regardless of past performance is not fair.
As I post this, there are 77 responses to the original post. I have been reading this blog for a year or so. I always find the original post interesting. But the responses generally devolve very quickly to ad hominem attacks that are untrue, unkind, and sure as hell not useful for getting farther down the road. This is the first time that the stupid comments are seriously outnumbered by the smart, interesting ones. Thank you.
84 Well I certainly don’t disagree with that. The question of what should be expected to advance to the next grade and/or graduate is a difficult one. We can’t expect perfection from every student, but we shouldn’t permit “dumbing down” our schools or grade inflation, either. There is a sensible, pragmatic, middle ground. I thought the schools had it approximately right when I went through the grades 50 years ago. It’s harder to grade a student’s performance in history than math because there’s more subjectivity involved. In math, you either had the right answer, or you didn’t — 2 + 2 never = 7. If a kid can’t get 2 + 2 right, he shouldn’t pass. He should get special help if needed. Administer it intravenously if necessary.
85 Partisan bashing is sport on this blog. So? Would you rather have us do it in the streets with guns?
rcguy: kind of thinned-skinned aren’t you? I’m sure you’re aware that nothing you’ve said is anything other than black-and-white opinion . . . and I’m sure you realize that experience does count for something although it is hard for you to acknowledge it.
Short of anything to offer other than conservative black and white group think, the superficiality of your post speaks for itself.
I’m sorry you aren’t better equipped to counter my anecdotes and link . . . including specifics on what teachers go through to become teachers and stay teachers today. Feel free to phone in your opinions any time.
And do I believe that you go back to school every five years? Not for a friggin’ minute.
@88
I think the onus is now on you to add something of substance. You have offered nothing so far. Let’s have some ideas. You can’t think the school system is perfect. You have to have ideas. Let’s hear them.
I’ve offered ideas, experiences (both public and private), weathered your shrill “no you are wrong” over generalities. Come on sister cough up some of that experience. Cut the bullshit and tell us what you think you can do to help better the school systems in our state.
-You think automatic raises are good as a motivator? Tell us why.
-You think the grading system is perfect? Tell us why.
-You love the WASL or don’t? Tell us why and what should be happening.
Let’s get something constructive out of your mouth/fingers. This isn’t an effing partisan debate. This should be a dialogue with ideas. You have none then shut the hell up. Now you want to be partisan about this then you can also tell me why we as a state govt. have been democrat controlled for I can’t even remember how long now and although we get lip service from said people we still have the exact same complaints about the system as I was hearing 20+ years ago when I was in High School. Now that is progress there.
It’s really freaking easy for you to sit back there and say no this won’t work, you’re wrong, you’re a hack, prick, moron whatever, I honestly don’t care. The intellectually bankrupt thing though is to sit there, as presumably an educator, and do it without adding one iota of constructive thought and you’ve managed to do that for over a day now.
Reading comp 101: where did I say any of those things?
Unlike you, I don’t have all the answers. It isn’t black and white for me.
Retention? How many times you going to retain? What age? If a child in elementary school is proficient in math but behind in reading/writing, what do you do? Retain or advance?
When do you stop considering developmental concerns and hold the student accountable?
If you have twenty-five students and fifteen of them are at-risk, how do you teach to every individual learning style and help them all . . . or do you focus on a few and retain the others? How does a school handle filling classrooms with repeat students when there is a waiting list to get in?
At what point does holding back kids in families that are low socio-economic status become discriminatory? Shouldn’t schools be teaching everybody?
You said you don’t like the WASL but didn’t say why? I think the WASL should be given to kids who are college bound. I think we try to push too many of our kids into academic areas in which they’ll never be successful nor are they even particularly interested. We need much better trade-school opportunities. Your job may one day be outsourced. Nobody is going to outsorce fixing my plumbing or wiring my house.
Having alternatives, teaching kids in differentiated ways that fit the child’s learning style, keeping classroom size small enough that a teacher can manage her kids, having preschools to get to those at-risk kids before those neurological learning windows close, increasing the school day and school year, . . . are all things which require more money. You know, Mr. right, for some kids school is the only safe place they know. Teachers must teach with their hearts as well as their heads.
Our middle schools are a mess. They need to be fixed. K-8 and 9-12 appeal to me. At least K-6 should continue in a self-contained classroom.
And middle and high school teachers with 125-150 kids to teach every day? What is wrong with you!
COLAS are not automatic raises. They are cost of living adjustments. I’ve never worked a job, public or private, that didn’t reward hard work. You seem to think you are the expert on how teachers should be rewarded. You have a right to your opinion whether I agree with it or not. Bureaucracies do not lend themselves well to merit pay. Politics is too rampant. When I worked for Kodak, I got a raise every year and a bonus. (They don’t do that anymore!) The only jobs I can think of that are stingy about raises are low-pay service jobs. I guess that is what you think of teachers – we are low-pay deserving servants. None of us could possibly be as smart as you.
Teachers will always be the scapegoats in education because we are the easiest to blame. You have chosen to ignore my posting of what teachers go through to become professionally certificated in this state. That makes this whole discussion disingenuous on your part. You are stuck in the “I am right” mode. So be it. It is important for you to be right? You are right.
Fortunately I’m not scapegoating the teachers. As a matter of fact miss “reading comp 101” in my previous post I said I’m in full support, always voting for levies etc and for the higher cola’s. I would never scapegoat our teachers, the fact that I want to figure out some additional way to reward them should say everything. I even go to our school meetings every time we have them so I know what is going on.
I want more money for teachers. I want lower class sizes. I want newer buildings where warranted. When Seattle talks about closing schools and we also hear the residents complaining about class sizes there is a disconnect. We should have more money in the system not less.
-more schools to help lower class sizes
-higher pay for teachers
-failover class rooms for students that have done just that
-trade school classes for kids that know they want to take that course
-personally I’d like to see each and every class room at every level with a teacher’s assistant
See I’m willing to vote myself higher taxes for the school levies. I even used to vote much more democratic but those fools do nothing to help. Again how many years of bid “D” democrat leadership in this state and we have the same education discussions every year? It’s not the teachers fault at all; it is our “leadership.” And I see absolutely no change happening there. WEA supports the dolts that are hamstringing our education system.
But see you got pissed off and actually put down a couple ideas. Good for you.
The students in w/ low socio economic backgrounds? There have to be some good ideas.
-after school reading and math programs that double as child care
-family visits by education professionals to help those that will accept it
Again; I’m not shy about wanting to throw money at the problem I just want my money, and your money, to be going to the right place. Education is far to low a priority for our “leaders” it’s time that changed. You all were so jazzed about our recent election outcomes, now you need to hold the people you “hired” to task and get them to do something.
WEA supports the dolts that are hamstringing our education system.
Who are the “dolts” of which you speak? Who should they support instead?
-after school reading and math programs that double as child care
-family visits by education professionals to help those that will accept it
Costs money. Where are you going to get it?
You all were so jazzed about our recent election outcomes, now you need to hold the people you “hired” to task and get them to do something.
No new ideas from you? Just a rant on the newly elected Dems? Forget Dems and Republicans; tell us how to do it.
BTW, you don’t vote for higher COLAS. They have to be negotiated. We haven’t had many in the last ten years. Northshore probably has.
I’ll look up the COLA vote. Rabbit might remember that one faster than I can look it up though. It was a number of years back and if I remember right we voted to guarentee teachers a certain % cola. I can’t remember what that percentage was. The state had some financial problems and Locke suspended the guarantee.
And like I said now more than a couple times I’m willing to tax myself more to add the money to help with the different solutions that we come up with.
The “dolts”? How many times do I have to say it. You seem to have complaints about the system. The democrats here in our state constantly pay education lip service but generally do little to help. Is that a fair generality. Because if they were busting their ass to help we’d know it. Me personally I call my local legislators. I email them I go to public meetings when they have them. I try to get involved and push them to push us to pony up more money.
I have ideas but I realize I’m not an expert. But do you know how hard it is to get people in this state to think up new ways to look at or deal with old problems. How many posts did it take me to actually get you to even come close to making a suggestion and you should be a subject matter expert? It’s like pulling teeth. Or back in school when people where afraid to raise their hand and answer a question in class.
With all due respect, I don’t recall many objective points in your posts either. And still don’t.
I think Gregoire is trying to get something done. Will you support her?
I will 100% support Gregoire if she comes up with something substantive.
I don’t think she is doing a bad job right now actually.
Well, we agree. Well, maybe we agree. Who is to determine substantive? Ah, therein lies the wrinkle . . .
BTW, what makes you think I’m a she?
Goldy, I’ve read this blog for over 27 months now and read all of your bs, long before that piece of s— rabbit came along. Speaking of Mrs. Gregoire, she brought in a black man from Nebraska to run our prison system. Guess what he broughtin 5 more black men from back east. Next thing you know all middle management were cut 300.00 dollars a month in pay and reclassified to pay for this new alignment. Moral is at an all time low.
@97
I thought in past reading I saw somebody refer to you in the female tense. Sorry if I’m mistaken.
If teachers across the state start saying things like, “Wow that could really make a difference.” I’d call that substantive.
Well, you’re right and I agree. Glad we ended on an agreeable note. I’m actually posting from my classroom, listening to Goldy on the radio, and getting ready for class tomorrow.
Have a good day.