From words to deeds: the real dangers of right-wing rhetoric

Every time I launch into a screed assailing violent, right-wing rhetoric, or warning of our nation’s precipitous slide towards fascism, I do so with the full understanding that some will judge me melodramatic, hyperbolic… or even paranoid. So why do I do it?

Dave Neiwert answers that question well today on his blog Orcinus, where he routinely chronicles the eliminationist rhetoric and actions of the far right:

Regular readers know that the main reason I keep harping on the rise of right-wing eliminationist rhetoric is that history tells us that this rhetoric always precedes action.

Last weekend, Jacob Robida acted out this dynamic in real life: He walked into a tavern in New Bedford, Mass., and, after inquiring whether it was a gay bar — and being informed that it was — began a murderous rampage with a hatchet and a handgun, leaving three bar patrons injured, one of them in critical condition. When pulled over in Arkansas for a traffic violation, he shot and killed a Gassville police officer, launching a 20-mile pursuit that culminated when his car was disabled in nearby Norfolk. He then killed his female passenger, 33-year-old Jennifer Rena Bailey, and then was shot himself when he pointed his weapon at police.

Like all such rampages, this one did not occur in a vacuum. Robida had a Web site on which he posted a number of entries regarding his fascination with all things Nazi and murdering people in general. A search of his room turned up Nazi regalia and literature.

[…]

Jacob Robida’s rampage was all about reminding gay Americans that they are unsafe in our society — that their lives are forfeit because haters like Robida say so. People like this get their fuel from demagogues who claim that inflicting this kind of violence on such outcasts is their right. Not only is it their right, but it is the right thing to do.

Contrary to what some people may think, I do not awake each morning expecting today to be the day my government locks me away in a “detention center,” nor do I lay my head down at night expecting my sleep to be shattered by a right-wing-militia-fueled, 21st century American Kristallnacht.

However… I know my history, and I know that it is possible, if not imminently likely.

Our national reaction to the isolated attack of 9/11 was a preemptive war abroad, and a surrender of civil liberties at home… the quiet acceptance of a “1984”-like scenario in which a unitary executive claims extra-constitutional war powers in a War on Terror that even he admits is likely to extend for decades, if not indefinitely. At the same time, the increasingly violent rhetoric of the far-right continues its steady creep into mainstream politics.

So what would be our response to a major disaster, such as a nuclear, chemical or biological attack on an American city? While 9/11 was a nearly unparalleled American tragedy, there are reasonable scenarios with death tolls 100 times greater… or even higher. What freedoms would we surrender then? What freedoms would our government — or extremist vigilantes — attempt to take by force?

I write about these things now, not because I believe they will happen, but because I know they can happen. I write about these things now, because we need to at least imagine the worst — just like we should have imagined terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers — so that if these things do happen, we can at least anticipate the violent, anti-democratic reaction that will surely be generated. I write about these things now, while I am still free to write about these things, without fear of official or unofficial retaliation.

I write about these things because I know my history.

Comments

  1. 1

    cmahnken spews:

    Lys@6 – You’re making a convenient mistake. You’re assuming that the CCCP, China, North Korea, Etc. are all telling the truth when they say that they are “Communist” governments. They aren’t. They are Totalitarian. Just as the National Socialists were not at all Socialists, but were also Totalitarian. So your statement is false. All those atrocities didn’t come from the left, they came from the very far right.

    It’s likely that you’re also making a mistake about our system of government, and our economic system. Democracy does not equal Capitalism.

  2. 2

    dj spews:

    marks @ 152

    Hey…no apologies necessary. That sometimes happens when multiple conversations occur simultaneously spread across one comment thread :-)

  3. 4

    marks spews:

    dj @101,

    My apologies for the post @59, I missed your point @22. I am getting old or something…

  4. 5

    For the Clueless spews:

    yeaWrong – GBS has served his country proudly in the U.S. military. Where have you served? The chickenhawk brigade?

    GWB doesn’t get a blank check even in wartime and this is a psuedo-war like the cold war and the war on drugs – a war that will never end and a mere excuse for politically connected war profiteers to cash in like Cunningham and Safavian (they were the dumb ones).

    Stop trampling on my rights and gorging yourself on my tax dollars, fascist!

  5. 6

    yearight spews:

    148- ‘“W” flew the bin Laden family to safety after 9/11.’

    So he is a real pilot after all?

  6. 7

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    Oh, and since “Stefan the Administrator” doesn’t run this blog, you’ll never get the last word in.

    Dickdribble Righties.

  7. 8

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    “W” flew the bin Laden family to safety after 9/11. Why? Is “W” a “bin Laden lover”?

  8. 9

    yearight spews:

    GurglingBS-145 ‘Your words prove you do not know, understand or appreciate your 4th Amendment rights.’

    Another lie. Your words prove you do not know, understand or appreciate Article II, the post-9/11 declaration by Congress, or the fact that GW wants to protect even wimps like you, as well as the country that allows you spew vomit in writing. It is not a mere coincidence that al Qaeda now tries to leverage lefty dissent, it is because the means to the end are the same. The surrender/coward crowd does much better when they stick to Constitutional issues that allow babies and old farts to be killed without due process, or trying to disarm Americans.

    The way you seem to define traitor indicates your loyalties are to bin Laden. If that is your disturbed definition then sign me up. Until then I suggest not using the phone when you get your next set of talking points.

  9. 11

    GBS spews:

    “The real problem is not that Democrats have a pre-9/11 mindset,
    but Republicans have a pre-1776 mindset”

    Sen. Feingold.

    How true.

    Wing nuts like yearight who get asked this question:
    “How do you know for 100% certain Bush is only wiretapping terrorists??”

    His reply?
    idiot.

    Comment by yearight— 2/9/06 @ 6:49 pm

    You are an absolute fucking idiot!

    Your words prove you do not know, understand or appreciate your 4th Amendment rights. Because if you do, then you’re more loyal to your leader than the Constitution.

    Traitor.

  10. 12

    For the Clueless spews:

    Sure. I’ll let the country be “led” by fascist “men” like you.

    Don’t count on it low-life.

  11. 14

    For the Clueless spews:

    Jaybo’s solution is to invade these countries and kill their inhabitants?

    Over 1 billion muslims jaybot? Over 100k in Iraq are dead since GWB started his excellent adventure. I guess it’s a start.

  12. 15

    jaybo spews:

    While President Bush tries to focus on the growing threat of “Islamo-Fascism”, Goldy (and his brain-dead cohorts) want you to believe that the real concern is NSA Wiretapping.

    Nero would be proud of the stance that the radical left is taking……..

    Below are just a few examples of the real fascist threat.

    “Israeli police in Jerusalem unsuccessfully tried to prevent protests by barring all men under the age of 45 from attending Friday prayers at the Al Aqsa mosque compound in the Old City, Islam’s third-holiest site. Despite the efforts, about 2,000 women, young boys and older men marched around the Dome of the Rock shrine on the compound, chanting “Bin Laden, strike again.””

    “In India, thousands of angry Muslims kicked, spat on and tore Danish flags and burned effigies in the capital, New Delhi, and in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir.”

    “In Bangladesh, more than 5,000 Muslims watched by hundreds of riot police marched on Denmark’s embassy in the capital, Dhaka, burning the country’s flag and shouting, “Death to those who degrade our beloved prophet!”
    In Malaysia’s largest city, Kuala Lumpur, about 3,000 protesters marched from a mosque to the high rise building housing the Danish Embassy shouting: “Long live Islam. Destroy Denmark. Destroy Israel. Destroy George Bush. Destroy America!””

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....0bQ–

  13. 17

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Everett — how do anti-American fucks like you justify all the lying by the Bush Administration? Ex-FEMA Director Michael Brown told Congress today the White House was lying when they claimed they didn’t know about the levee breaches. Was that for national security, to confuse our enemies? Jack Abramoff said in correspondence released today that he met Bush a dozen times and was invited to the Texas ranch — when Bush said he didn’t know Abramoff, was he lying to protect national security? You are an immoral fuck because you support these liars.

  14. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    134

    You won’t be alone, Coyote. When they come to arrest me for being a Democrat, they won’t have to wait a moment longer for the Rapture, because I’ll hand them Armageddon on a silver platter!

  15. 20

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    128

    “Even when something is specifically forbidden by statute, if the aggrieved party has allowed it to go on for a long period, that in itself can and has been used successfully as a defense.”

    I can’t let this one go unanswered, either. Total bullshit. The idiot who posted this knows nothing about law.

  16. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    123

    “Fuck the moron businessmen who fund all this shit too.”

    Whatever you say about the billionaires like Scaife who fund this shit, they’re not morons. They’re cleaning up like nobody’s business. The consolation is that trailer park wingnuts are getting ripped off, too.

  17. 22

    Gray Coyote spews:

    The left wing, and especially GLBT, flat out need to arm themselves.

    If the right wing takes over to the point we’re their demanding us to go into cattle cars to the local concentration, you can bet they will not take me alive, or my family.

    Sorry, but I would have supported the Japanese-American citizens who were being interred at concentration camps taking up arms and killing the guards and breaking through the lines. Being locked up merely by your race or sexual orientation is never acceptable.

    This is speaking as a gay man.

    Molon Labe.

  18. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    114

    “I do not worry about my personal safety as much as I worry about a great country being attacked from abroad, and from within.”

    Please, please, please … help your country … don’t wear a seat belt, don’t wear a bike helmet.

  19. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    112

    Speaking of “tone,” do you think Ann Coulter’s comments about putting liberals in “concentration camps” and “executing” us raises the “tone?” How about Coulter’s death threat against Justice Stevens, did that raise the “tone?”

  20. 28

    For the Clueless spews:

    Precedent is a valid legal concept. Even when something is specifically forbidden by statute, if the aggrieved party has allowed it to go on for a long period, that in itself can and has been used successfully as a defense. Don’t believe this dumb conservative, ask your lawyer friends. So yeah, the NSA was set up many decades ago, with a huge budget, to listen to your phone calls. I knew this 30 years ago. Anyone who read the mainstream media knew it as well. Where have you been?

    I couldn’t let this one go. Complete bullshit.

    And NSA? The big ear? BY STATUTE is supposed to be turned OUTWARDS. NOT INWARDS TOWARDS AMERICANS.

    Just because Dear Leader told the NSA to turn the big ear inwards ignoring FISA and covered his sorry ass by mouthing a few words to 4 people in Congress doesn’t mean there wasn’t anyone to be “aggrieved”.

    Freaking American-hating wingnuts!

  21. 30

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “There have been about 2000 terrorist bombings throughout the United States since 1960. Leftists are responsible for almost all of them.”

    Timothy McVeigh was a leftist? Don’t think so! He was affiliated with a rightwing extremist group.

  22. 31

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    100

    “Pre-9/11: Play defense, terrorism should be handled after the fact in the courts. Assume that a few terror attacks are not only likely, but perhaps even deserved.”

    Got news for ya, bub, the Republicans did that too — until the lawless Dubya regime came along.

  23. 32

    TheDeadlyShoe spews:

    Jesus fuck. Fucking wingers. You don’t live in reality.

    Fucking jingo wingers.

    Cowards the lot of you. You won’t even confront it. You don’t even pretend this is about freedom or doing what’s right. You’re too busy wacking off to your own bullshit and starry eyed visions of glory.

    I don’t give two shits about a band of wackos. There is an oversupply of wackos. Add them to the top of the list, and if you’re going to go after them DO IT FUCKING RIGHT!

    Fucking wingers. Fucking jingos.

    Fuck the moron businessmen who fund all this shit too. Riding their gravy trains right off the goddamn cliff.

  24. 33

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    94

    “I saw Ron Sims running the train from Mexaco to King County and Dean Logan provides the ballots. Roger help sneak them back over the Canadian border in the middle of the night. Comment by klake— 2/9/06 @ 10:19 pm”

    Why should I help an ignorant fuck who can’t even spell “Mexico” right? You are an idiot.

  25. 34

    For the Clueless spews:

    99 – Your worldview is so warped and distorted that not even Ronnie Reagan was nutty enough for you.

    What part of “secret” do you not understand?

    Secret from whom? The terrorists? You don’t think the terrorists know about NSA? The secret is from Congress and the American people. Ok, Bush told 4 people in Congress and left it very vague about what he was doing.

    And if you cannot, do not listen to al Qaeda phone calls. I can hear it now…Bush could have been listening but he didn’t.

    You wingers just don’t get it. Nobody gives a damn about suicidal maniacs who want to kill Americans. We care about the rights of Americans to have their communications not tapped by the government without oversight. Nixon spyed on his political adversaries. Obviously Dear Leader is beyond such things. Sorry I don’t buy it.

    The dems only want political points from MoveOn and the KosCrowd. They back off once middle America smells the old lefty rats wanting to surrender.

    More wingnut lunacy. Have you listened to your Limbaugh today?

    Wake up. There is so much “media” controlled by the surrender-for-peace crowd that your argument does not even reach laughable.

    Have you listed to your Michael Savage-Wiener today?

    I hear they have tin hats now that are biodegradable. Check it out.

    Ronnie Reagan and Jimmy Baker may offered the same advice – to you that is.

    The dems will bluster a bit, leak a few secrets, get a few NOCs killed, and then scamper away with their tails between their legs. You can only carry the coward torch until about six months before the 2006 election. Until then all they need is a little red meat to squeeze money out of the wealthy blue city libs. Have you sent your check in yet?

    What if Clinton did this you mealy-mouthed hyprocrite?

  26. 35

    Nibbler, Yakkler & Whiterton, attys. at law spews:

    Everett: Remember: Rossi is NOT governor. There is NOT a Republican majority in the WA state House. There IS a tax to improve the roads and keep them safe. Microsoft IS adding 12,000 new jobs here over the next few years. With Gov. Gregoire’s fine leadership we are moving into bio-technology in a big way. The schools ARE going to get the money and personnel they need. The WEA is not folding. Walmart HAS been x-posed as the CORPORATE WELFARE QUEENS that we always said they were.

    The EFF has been x-posed as the Walmart and Mellon-Scaife funded anti-union cranks that they really are. The list is far from exhausted.

    We’re taking this WA State thing on the road. We’re going national:

    “‘…cause we’re BAD!

    We’re Nationwide.”

    ZZ Top

    …and in the words of a famous Washingtonian: “Watch out! Here I come! I’m comin’ to GITCHA!”

    J. Hendrix, “Foxy Lady”

  27. 36

    For the Clueless spews:

    The hate, bile, patent dishonesty on display here are incredible.

    And a fair portion of credit for that goes to ——Goldy!

    And the utter mind-bending projection and lunacy of these “perceptions” is pretty apparent. Two things bring out the right-wing haters on this board:

    1) A drinking-liberally announcement
    2) Goldy writing about right-wing extremism

    3) You are fun to bat around. Like little mice for a big old cat.

    5) And the most important reason the remaining Lefty’s must stay around is (drum roll)………………………………
    You are an endangered species.

    Need I say more?

  28. 37

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    Oh, but don’t believe me, I’m just a right wing liar. Lie, Lie Lie.

    Game. Set. Match.

  29. 38

    Lys spews:

    Game Set and match indeed. Go on line and you’ll see that it’s true. I see how you got your name, ptbaa…

  30. 39

    Everett spews:

    It’s hard to imagine anyone would want to eliminate any of you Lefty’s for the following simple reasons:
    1) You are always so in control. HA is a great accumulation of your thoughts for poterity.
    2) You actually shove people into Conservatism with your looney candidates.
    3) You are fun to bat around. Like little mice for a big old cat.
    4) If you were extinct, who would provide the world with endless hysteria?
    5) And the most important reason the remaining Lefty’s must stay around is (drum roll)………………………………
    You are an endangered species.

  31. 41

    Lys spews:

    I intended to leave this thread after my last post, but I had to tell you guys what just hit the news.

    Senator Diane Feinstein announced this evening that she will be voting FOR the extention of the Patriot Act.

    SNAP!!!!

    Oh, but don’t believe me, I’m just a right wing liar. Lie, Lie Lie.

    I love you guys. I really do!

  32. 42

    yearight spews:

    Dr. E-105

    ‘What you posted looks like strategy, perhaps, but not rhetoric.’

    Point taken. Strategy, or perhaps the selling of it does influence rhetoric. One can usually work backwards. With most of the HA “Team” posts it is a no-brainer.

    ‘..terms of actual threats to your physical safety, where do you rank terrorism?’

    Pretty low. Same with not wearing seat belts, not having air bags in cars, no helmet while riding a bike, etc. I do not worry about my personal safety as much as I worry about a great country being attacked from abroad, and from within.

  33. 46

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    Lys: Normal people don’t want their children to die in an oil war. Why must you idiots write these long tomes with the same crap you’ve been saying for forty years? What are you going to do when all the people realize your “new” ideas are “bad” ideas?

  34. 47

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “White House Knew of Levee’s Failure on Night of Storm

    “By ERIC LIPTON, The New York Times

    “WASHINGTON (Feb. 10) – In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, Bush administration officials said they had been caught by surprise when they were told on Tuesday, Aug. 30, that a levee had broken, allowing floodwaters to engulf New Orleans.

    “But Congressional investigators have now learned that an eyewitness account of the flooding from a federal emergency official reached the Homeland Security Department’s headquarters starting at 9:27 p.m. the day before, and the White House itself at midnight.

    “White House officials have confirmed to Congressional investigators that the report of the levee break arrived there at midnight ….”

    For complete story, see http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/new.....1609990004

  35. 48

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Goldy, you’ve missed a larger point” Eliminating their liberal foes is only a preliminary. Their real objective is eliminating themselves, the Earth, and every human on it — in other words, Biblical Armageddon.

  36. 49

    Dr. E spews:

    I ask this because I lived in the UK during the height of IRA terrorist activity — bombs going off in the City, routine tube stoppages due to people leaving bags behind, etc., yet we never had yellow alerts and such. Sure, there weren’t any attacks quite as spectacular as 9/11, but they certainly happened far more often.

  37. 50

    Lys spews:

    Been gone, now I’m back.

    Rujax, you are just too erudite for me. This dumb conservative can’t understand your posts, although they seem hostile.

    Proud to be an ass and comment for the clueless. Where to start?
    You are the people who say the wiretaps are illegal. Precedent is a valid legal concept. Even when something is specifically forbidden by statute, if the aggrieved party has allowed it to go on for a long period, that in itself can and has been used successfully as a defense. Don’t believe this dumb conservative, ask your lawyer friends. So yeah, the NSA was set up many decades ago, with a huge budget, to listen to your phone calls. I knew this 30 years ago. Anyone who read the mainstream media knew it as well. Where have you been? And why are you just getting pissed off about it right now? Oh, yeah, because Bush is President. When Dems were in power you guys called US paranoid! And, yes, this IS the point.

    But we are getting ahead of ourselves. I’ll say it again. It is not settled that the NSA has been acting illegally. Your saying so doesn’t make it so. The Bush administration is acting under a legal interpretation written by Jamie Gorelick of the Clinton Justice Department. It will be put to the test, unless the Democrats lose interest and move on to the next manufactured scandal.

    “All anyone has right now are the reports from the NY Times.” Bada-Bing!!! Thanks CFTC, that pretty much puts the whole issue to bed for me.

    You equate Bush putting language to privatize social security to putting people into cattle cars. I don’t know what to say to that.

    Glad someone brought up impeachment, so I wouldn’t have to. If Bush is breaking the law, why don’t you bring charges? Where is the impeachment? Your Dem reps don’t seem to be willing to carry water for you, so why should anyone else?

    Your impeachment is about as real as fitzmas, the Karl Rove frog march, the Koran being flushed down the toilet, and your chances of taking over either house in 2008. And a fair portion of credit for that goes to ——Goldy! I simply can’t understand how you guys think that he, or this website, helps your cause with normal people. The hate, bile, patent dishonesty on display here are incredible. Why do you think even the Washingto State Democratic Party won’t have anything to do with you?

    Just please, please, keep posting!

  38. 51

    Dr. E spews:

    100
    What you posted looks like strategy, perhaps, but not rhetoric. But, while you’re on the line, so to speak, I wonder about the following: in terms of actual threats to your physical safety, where do you rank terrorism? You know on a continuum from, say, getting infectious diarrhea, through falling down in the bathtub, on up to being involved in a fatal car accident?

  39. 52

    Abdul El JCH spews:

    #

    Pull your head out of your ass!!

    Name ONE Democrat that said we should NOT wiretap terrorist!!!

    You�re so fucking gullible, it�s amazing.

    Comment by GBS� 2/9/06 @ 5:03 pm

    Teddy Kennedy

    Comment by klake — 2/9/06 @ 10:07 pm

    Citation, asshole.

  40. 53

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    -There have been about 2000 terrorist bombings throughout the United States since 1960. Leftists are responsible for almost all of them. In nost cases they publicly took credit for them. –

    Looks like our Droll Troll friend is back on a roll. His motive seems to be “if I print the same lie enough times, maybe another right wing psycho out there will believe it.”

    Yeah, Stalin called himself a “progressive.” Another useful contribution, SaulLys.

  41. 54

    dj spews:

    marks @ 59

    But to state in unequivocal terms he was right is, well, wrong…”

    Yes…I agree. That was my point in posts 22 and 52!

  42. 55

    dj spews:

    yearight @ 63

    “If al Qaeda calls me I hope someone is listening.’

    I hope so, too…with a proper court warrant. And just because you are a chickenshit pussey who will scrap the constitution out of fear of some small-time terrorists, doesn’t mean the rest of us are willing to do so. Take you chickenshit ass to some other country.

    “This is a war lady. If you want to kiss ass with the terrorists you must first get a lefty elected.”

    Ummmm…you have it backward jackass. Relinquishing your rights out of fear is kissing the ass of terrorists (it is exactly what they want, and pussies like you are trying to let them win). You want American freedoms? You have to be able to die for them!

    Get your fucking head out of the sand!

  43. 56

    yearight spews:

    Dr. E-97 ‘What is pre-9/11 rhetoric, and what is post-9/11 rhetoric?’

    Pre-9/11: Play defense, terrorism should be handled after the fact in the courts. Assume that a few terror attacks are not only likely, but perhaps even deserved.

    Post-9/11: Play offense, clean up the probable dangers to the US before they attack. Essentially clean up the current mess and try to redo what should have been started back in the 70’s. Yes, I even think Reagan punted on this one.

  44. 57

    yearight spews:

    Clueless-80 ‘GET A WARRANT!’

    And if you cannot, do not listen to al Qaeda phone calls. I can hear it now…Bush could have been listening but he didn’t.

    ‘Distortion.’ Really. ‘Democrats in Congress haven’t shown any willingness to go out on a limb and actually ask that it be stopped.’

    The dems only want political points from MoveOn and the KosCrowd. They back off once middle America smells the old lefty rats wanting to surrender.

    ‘It’s well documented that the Bush adminstration strong-arms the media into downplaying their abuses.’

    Wake up. There is so much “media” controlled by the surrender-for-peace crowd that your argument does not even reach laughable.

    ‘Cattle cars might not be in the plan right now..

    I hear they have tin hats now that are biodegradable. Check it out.

    ‘They’re holding hearings to find out what happened. They’ll speak up soon enough.’

    The dems will bluster a bit, leak a few secrets, get a few NOCs killed, and then scamper away with their tails between their legs. You can only carry the coward torch until about six months before the 2006 election. Until then all they need is a little red meat to squeeze money out of the wealthy blue city libs. Have you sent your check in yet?

  45. 58

    klake spews:

    “If al Qaeda calls me I hope someone is listening.”

    What??? Are you seriously expecting such a call?

    Comment by Dr. E— 2/9/06 @ 7:06 pm

    Dr. E didn’t they call you yesterday and you were to afread to answer you phone. I also saw a black helo fying over you house the day after. You better watch out who is following you all over town.

  46. 59

    Dr. E spews:

    95
    “Or, perhaps that many in the blue cities seem to want another attack based on their pre-9/11 rhetoric.”

    This intrigues me. What is pre-9/11 rhetoric, and what is post-9/11 rhetoric?

  47. 60

    Dr. E spews:

    RUFUS
    Despite the preposterousness of assertion about “leftists”, I’ll go ahead and answer your question about these tendencies:

    1) Suppression of speech
    No. Don’t think I’d bother to answer your questions otherwise.
    Re: “bias media” — what ever happened to the FCC Equal Time Clause of the Fairness Doctrine? Surely if there is such a thing as a “left-wing bias” in the media (which I find quite laughable), then perhaps the reinstatement of those 2 items struck down by Reagan might help to restore some modicum of balance.
    2) Suppression of property rights
    No.
    3) Suppression of the vote
    No. Do we need to rehash the 2000 and 2004 elections again?
    4) Suppression of Free Enterprise
    No. Paying taxes does not constitute “suppression”.
    5) Suppression of Education
    No. By the way, what does “competition in public schools” mean, anyway?
    6) Suppression of Religion
    No.
    7) Suppression of Patriotism
    No. A distinction, however, must be made between “patriotism” and jingoism, which is mostly what passes for “patriotism” these days.
    8) Suppression of Gun rights
    No.
    9) Suppression of National Sovereignty
    No. This is a ludicrous statement at best. If you don’t like the idea of supranational organizations and international law, then it would be best to withdraw from such.
    10) Suppression of American Culture
    Can’t answer that one, since I don’t really know how you would define “American Culture” beyond the idea that gays can’t get married. What exactly is “American Culture”, anyway?
    11) Hatred of Jews
    No, and for extremely personal reasons. I’ll further add that a distinction needs to be made between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, and leave it at that.
    12) Love of Dictatorships
    No. That’s one of the chief reasons I want to see Herr Busch out on his ass, post haste.

  48. 61

    yearight spews:

    Clueless-79

    ‘Then why does GW have to lie about it all?’

    What part of “secret” do you not understand?

    ‘Funny I seem to remember you wishing in a post a while back that the terrorists would attack Seattle.’

    That may be funny to you, but I do not recall wishing a terror attack on anyone. I may have said that some pretty blue cities are ripe targets. Or, perhaps that many in the blue cities seem to want another attack based on their pre-9/11 rhetoric.

  49. 62

    klake spews:

    “Don’t talk to me of cattle cars” [Lys] The Democrats would use cattle cars to move Mexicans INTO the US and from poll to poll to vote Democrat early and often.

    Comment by Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH]— 2/9/06 @ 5:37 pm

    I saw Ron Sims running the train from Mexaco to King County and Dean Logan provides the ballots. Roger help sneak them back over the Canadian border in the middle of the night.

  50. 63

    klake spews:

    By the way, I think it’s hyperbole, melodrama and paranoia such as yours that really leads to bad acts. But that isn’t as bad as your inherent dishonesty.

    Comment by Lys— 2/9/06 @ 5:06 pm

    Amen; Have a happy day Roger

  51. 64

    klake spews:

    How do you know for 100% certain Bush is only wiretapping terrorists??

    How do you KNOW that?

    Comment by GBS— 2/9/06 @ 5:07 pm

    GBS he is your President and you should trust everything he does, I did with Bill Cliton.

  52. 65

    klake spews:

    Pull your head out of your ass!!

    Name ONE Democrat that said we should NOT wiretap terrorist!!!

    You’re so fucking gullible, it’s amazing.

    Comment by GBS— 2/9/06 @ 5:03 pm

    Teddy Kennedy

  53. 66

    klake spews:

    George W. Bush is violating the FISA laws. Which was enacted by congress and signed into law by President Carter after the Church Committee Reports revealed that Nixon abused the powers of the Executive Branch by, ironically, wiretapping his enemies who were opposed to him in a time of “war.”

    Sound familiar?

    Comment by GBS— 2/9/06 @ 4:49 pm

    GBS LBJ did the same thing back in the 1960’s with Jane Fonda and all her friends. John Kennedy brother did the same thing with M L King and all his friends. So today we listen in on Bin Ladins friends and you all have a problem. So listen to what he had to say about your concerns.
    http://www.geocities.com/talibanfun/

  54. 67

    Rev. A.A. Tappman: Anababtist spews:

    RR: If you feint one way, Rufus “reacts” the opposite way. That’s why people like Rufus are called reactionaries. They merely react and try to cope with change by keeping everything the same.

  55. 68

    For the Clueless spews:

    84 – Do you actually go on wingnut retreats or alaskan cruises to learn this garbage?

    Come out of the dark and into the light.

    If only you could take your own advice DOOFUS.

  56. 70

    RUFUS spews:

    Roger same question as Dr E’s. Do you have commie tendencies? Be truthful. I hope and pray that you do not fall into the lies of the left and become a murderous commie. It is not too late to change Rabbit. Come out of the dark and into the light.

  57. 71

    RUFUS spews:

    you know, most of the most horrible acts of the 20th century, the genocides, the gulags, the purges, the reeduction camps, the show trials, the denials of freedom and democracy, and the millions of deaths in Russia, China, Eastern Europe, and the rest of the world, arise from the left.”

    I’m trying to understand your argument, which seems to progress from the concept of the political “left” being a monolithic, undifferentiated unit. Is that what you mean to say? That’s what your argument suggests. If so, the argument could easily be proven fallacious.

    Comment by Dr. E— 2/9/06 @ 6:05 pm

    Dr. E not all leftists are full blown commies, but nearly all have commie tendencies. The root of communism is the anti-freedom/pro collective philosophy which exalts “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. The common characteristics include:

    1) Suppression of speech (political correctness, bias media)
    2) Suppression of property rights (taking property in the name of the environment)
    3) Suppression of the vote (Washington State & Military ballots, Wisconsin)
    4) Suppression of Free Enterprise (against right to work laws, high taxes & regulation on businesses
    5) Suppression of Education (resistance to competition in public schools)
    6) Suppression of Religion (against displays of religion in the public square)
    7) Suppression of Patriotism (blame America first, rewrite history to fit anti America view point)
    8) Suppression of Gun rights (gun grabbers)
    9) Suppression of National Sovereignty- (Trust the UN to solve problems at all costs)
    10) Suppression of American Culture (anti family, pro gay)
    11) Hatred of Jews (pro Palestinian, blame Israel for the Arabs problems)
    12) Love of Dictatorships

    It has not happened yet but it would not be surprising if the left in this county turns out to kill as many people or more than what Stalin did in Russia. Our job on the right is to keep this from happening. Dr. E do you have any of these tendencies? Be truthful as you look in the mirror.

  58. 72

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    Dear Lys,

    Goldy’s point was quite clear—and for the sake of argument, let us agree you have the gist of it right. However, I was responding to your points 1-6 in your post @ 56. For the sake of brevity, I shall reply only to your first point:

    1. In post #56, you asserted NSA spying was “not new” and that “Bush did not “invent it”. Thank you so much for stating the irrelevantly obvious. You were replying to another poster (@ 48 if memory serves), who raised a current concern about possible abuse of this program and its impact on our civil liberties. My response to your post is entirely correct. The point at dispute is not the existence of the program. The point is the program’s execution must comply with the law. You may feel the administration’s interpretation of the law’s application is “correct” and “lawful”, but informing us that the program existed prior to Bush’s ascension to the presidency brings absolutely nothing to the conversation. Everybody concerned about this issue is by now well aware of the history of this program.

    In response to my point @ 62, you write @ 68 “Sure it’s the point”. This is cleary not correct. Your original “point” number 1 of post 56 has absolutely no bearing on the discussion, and it is difficult for me to even imagine how it was in any way germaine to just about anything that could even be remotely tied to Goldy’s original posting. Q.E.D.

    The pleasure of your reply is welcomed. Perhaps we can now dispense with this most egregious error on your part, and move on to “point no. 2″.

    Regards,

  59. 73

    rujax206 spews:

    I’m sooooo sorry…

    lys obviously eats MORE drugs than the bloviator.

    How silly of me not to notice.

    So thin lyssy…you gettin’ paid by the post or by the word…we’re keeping score over here.

  60. 74

    yearight spews:

    Cougar-69

    There is no “free” wiretapping allowed. There must be a reasonable expectation that the probable cause will be sufficent, and that the paperwork can justify that within three days. Nice try.

    These taps are more akin to metal detectors at the airports, justified for the safety of the public. As opposed to prosecuting a particular individual in a criminal court. Plus, we are at war and GW would get into trouble if he did not do all that is possible to protect every lefty in the US. As it should be.

  61. 75

    For the Clueless spews:

    Lys (rhymes with lies):

    1. NSA spying on phone calls is not new. Bush did not invent it.

    All anyone is asking him to do is OBEY THE LAW. GET A WARRANT!

    2. The Democrats in Congress haven’t shown any willingness to go out on a limb and actually ask that it be stopped.

    Distortion. Typical of right. Hearings are being held as is Congress’s duty to put a check on the power of the executive. All anyone has right now are the reports from the NY Times. Hearings put the administration on the record.

    3. Neither Bush, nor the rest of us on the right, are planning to load people into cattle cars, or stifle dissent in any other way.

    It’s well documented that the Bush adminstration strong-arms the media into downplaying their abuses. This so-called president just put funding for social security private accounts in his budget. Obviously he wants to do whatever he feels like. Cattle cars might not be in the plan right now but I don’t ever want to let him get there. Yea, impeachment sounds really good to me.

    4. For Goldy and the posters on this site to claim we are is dishonest.

    All Goldy posted about was eliminationist rhetoric preceding violent a ction. You don’t deny eliminationist rhetoric doesn’t exist on the right, do you? Ever seen LGF? NiceDoggie.net?

    5. Teh Democrats in the Senate and the house are meekluy going along with it anyway. They are playing more for political advantage than out of concern for athe infrengement of our rights.

    They’re holding hearings to find out what happened. They’ll speak up soon enough.

    6. Why should an objective person look at this situation and have any reason to believe that the “left” would do one iota more to protect freedom and privacy than the “right.” Please show me one tiny shread of evidence of this. It isn’t in their track record.

    Clinton tightened FISA regulations on physical searches in ’95. Carter signed the FISA court into law. Good enough?

  62. 76

    For the Clueless spews:

    yeaWrong:

    Plus, we are at war and GW would get into trouble if he did not do all that is possible to protect every lefty in the US.

    Then why does GW have to lie about it all? Remember the “court order” speech? Why are you so against FISA oversight that would prevent abuse? If Clinton did this you wingnuts would be having a freaking cow!

    Funny I seem to remember you wishing in a post a while back that the terrorists would attack Seattle. Maybe akin to a “mugging” that would make neo-cons out of us?

  63. 77

    bill spews:

    yearight, regarding ‘we are at war’. You keep saying that. Being at war is very clearly defined in the Constitution. Who exactly are we at war with? (and remember being ‘at war’ needs to have a county on the other side). Where is the congressional approval for this war? (and remember President Bush declared an end to the war in Iraq quite some time ago).

    Are we also at war with the Mafia? The Crips? Should the police also get the capability to search your house anytime you’re away from home since they have to catch the criminals? I mean people get shot on the street every day, they’ve got to do something to stop it, why not let them search your house?

    I really dont care if the Democrats refuse to demand an end to wiretapping, they are just as crooked as the Republicans. That is beside the point, the question is did the current administration, you know, the guys actually in charge, break the law and are you going to be so blind that you allow any adminstration to do so without question?

    These people in the current administration, after all, aren’t really republicans either, to all current appearences they are in it for what they can get and thats about it.

    Lys, the question isn’t should the NSA do wire taps. Thats just silly of course they should. Its their job. The question is should the NSA do wiretaps without oversite. All the rest is distraction.

  64. 78

    Abu Hamza al-Masri [JCH] spews:

    Cougar, brother of Abu, you tell them 9/11 was Bush’s trick! You tell them USS Cole never was bombed! Praise to Cougar and Allah!

  65. 79

    Abu Hamza al-Masri [JCH] spews:

    we are in a ’self made’, ’self concocted’, untrue war.

    Comment by Cougar— 2/9/06 @ 7:45 pm [This must be the Democrat tactic for 2006 and 2008! hehe]

  66. 80

    Cougar spews:

    in fact, if it was just about anyone but GWB we could say we are in an ‘intelligent design’ war. Everyone knows that intelligence is beyond his scope.

  67. 81

    Abu Hamza al-Masri [JCH] spews:

    Cougar , No free wiretapping! Terrorists must communicate without evil Bush listening! Praise to Allah! Bush bad! Jane Fonda and Cougar good! Cougar is brother to Allah!

  68. 84

    Abu Hamza al-Masri [JCH] spews:

    72, Cougar, Yes! You tell them 9/11 never happened! You tell them Islam is religion of peace! [hehe]

  69. 85

    Cougar spews:

    yearight. GWB has 3 days of ‘free wire tapping’ before he must get a warrant. What is so hard for you nutcakes to understand about this?

  70. 86

    Lys spews:

    Dear Proud to be an Ass @ 62:

    The question up for discussion was postulated by Goldy. Stripping the hyperbole, invective, etc. out of his post, it boils down to: If us “progessives” let them, the “right” will turn this country into an Orwellian, fascistic state. Did I read it wrong? Help us out, Goldy. Were you trying to say something else?

    1. Sure it’s the point. Goldy is saying that attacks on freedom come from the right. Isn’t that what you said, Goldy?
    2. Sorry, but it hasn’t been settled that what Bush is doing is against the law. Your saying it is doesn’t make it so.
    3. Read Goldy’s post, and the other posts on this thread again.
    4. Looks logical to me. Neither Goldy nor any of these other posters offer any facts to support their false and truly mean assertions.
    5. It is a fact that there hasn’t been any call in the house or the Senate to end these wiretaps, by anyone. The reason is simple. Polls show Americans are in favor of the wiretaps. Sorry. My point at 1. is relevant here. The wiretaps aren’t new. What do you think the NSA has actually been doing all these years, anyway?
    6. Gee, where was the reasonable left been throughout this thread? Where is the “reasonable left” reaction to Goldy’s post? You know, I can’t think I’ve ever seen a poster write “Hey Goldy, I’m on the reasonable left, and I think you’re a little over the top. The conservatives are humans too.”

    Goldy thinks he’s fighting for freedom, but he’s not. He’s making you on the left, both reasonable and the rest, look really bad.

  71. 87

    Cougar spews:

    you have to wonder about a ‘group’ of people that have their ‘creed’ written all over the place and then do the exact opposite!

    *That fiscal responsibility and budgetary restraints must be exercised at all levels of government.

    (not in their wildest dreams to they follow this item)

    *That the Federal Government must preserve individual liberty by observing constitutional limitations.

    (it has been over 5 years that the powers to be have forgotten about their ‘creed’. come November there needs to be a drastic change in the US government)

    (*from the republiCON creed)

  72. 88

    yearight spews:

    GurglingBS-21

    ‘To reduce Joe Wilson’s credibility’

    Too late. Wilson lies almost as much as you. His lies about Niger are now well documented.

    ‘The list of overt dishonesty and corruption coming from the Republicans is so long and dubious that it’..will approach that of the Clintons in 2-3 years.

  73. 89

    yearight spews:

    dj-15 ‘You seem to be willing to surrender your fundamental freedoms..’

    Right. If al Qaeda calls me I hope someone is listening. This is a war lady. If you want to kiss ass with the terrorists you must first get a lefty elected.

  74. 90

    Dr. E spews:

    “If al Qaeda calls me I hope someone is listening.”

    What??? Are you seriously expecting such a call?

  75. 91

    yearight spews:

    GurglingBS-21 ‘Name ONE Democrat that said we should NOT wiretap terrorists!’

    Besides you, dozens of dems in Congress do not want GW to tap the terrorists if there is not enough time and/or probable cause to get FISA approval.

    Have you hugged a terrorist today?

  76. 93

    marks spews:

    Dj @37,

    You are right that the Unabomber was not “left” based on today’s concepts:
    Teddy boy!
    But to state in unequivocal terms he was right is, well, wrong…

  77. 95

    yearight spews:

    proud leftist-10 ‘I’m a helluva lot more concerned about these fucks depriving us of our right than I am of getting blown up by some terrorist.’

    That is mighty pre-9/11 of you. Wait until they strike, then prosecute the hell out of them. John Kerry is calling you – he needs a fresh message for 2008.

  78. 96

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    @56: You have my respect and admiration for a toned down reasonable response. My reply to your points would be as follows:

    1. That is not the point.
    2. The question is one of adhering to the law. Is Bush adhering to the law he swore to uphold or is he not?
    3. Goldy made no such claim.
    4. Logical error. See response @ #3 above.
    5. On what basis do you make this judgement? What evidence can you bring to bear to support your assertion?
    6. That is not the question up for discussion, but it is a very serious topic. Extremists on both sides have repeatedly demonstrated a tendency to stifle debate or go further to quash dissent. We on the reasonable left recognize this. We dennounced this wherever and whenever it takes place. We only ask you to do the same. What do you have against that?

    Regards,

  79. 98

    Lys spews:

    Proud Leftist @ 48

    Gee, an intelligent question without namecalling. Guess I better answer in good faith.

    I am from what you call the “right”. I am not in lockstep with the president either. I am extremely concerned about potential threats to our freedom and our privacy in the name of the war on terror. My points, which I make in good faith as well, are these:

    1. NSA spying on phone calls is not new. Bush did not invent it.
    2. The Democrats in Congress haven’t shown any willingness to go out on a limb and actually ask that it be stopped.
    3. Neither Bush, nor the rest of us on the right, are planning to load people into cattle cars, or stifle dissent in any other way.
    4. For Goldy and the posters on this site to claim we are is dishonest.
    5. Teh Democrats in the Senate and the house are meekluy going along with it anyway. They are playing more for political advantage than out of concern for athe infrengement of our rights.
    6. Why should an objective person look at this situation and have any reason to believe that the “left” would do one iota more to protect freedom and privacy than the “right.” Please show me one tiny shread of evidence of this. It isn’t in their track record.

  80. 99

    Dr. E spews:

    “As you know, most of the most horrible acts of the 20th century, the genocides, the gulags, the purges, the reeduction camps, the show trials, the denials of freedom and democracy, and the millions of deaths in Russia, China, Eastern Europe, and the rest of the world, arise from the left.”

    I’m trying to understand your argument, which seems to progress from the concept of the political “left” being a monolithic, undifferentiated unit. Is that what you mean to say? That’s what your argument suggests. If so, the argument could easily be proven fallacious.

  81. 101

    proud leftist spews:

    Lys,
    Even, for argument’s sake, accepting your twisted and selective view of history as true, is your point that Democratic presidents abused the civil rights of American citizens, so it’s fine and dandy if Bush does the same now? There are actually a couple of Republican senators–Chuck Hagel and Lindsay Graham–who seem to take issue with Bush’s disdain for civil liberties. Even the right is not lining up in lockstep behind Bush.

  82. 104

    GBS spews:

    Ahhh, @ 46.

    You gave yourself the out didn’t you. Publically is the operative word. When the members of Congress were briefed they were done so in secret setting, they could not state that publically without breaking the laws and Senate rules.

    You’re such a dumb ass.

    But, go ahead, what Democrat is against wiretapping terrorists.

    Go on, show us how smart you are.

  83. 105

    dj spews:

    Lys @ 42,

    You mean…um…that they are wacked out extremists that shouldn’t be associated with either side?

  84. 107

    Ken In Seattle spews:

    http://www.organicconsumers.or.....101205.cfm

    “But I venture the challenging statement that if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, then Fascism and Communism, aided, unconsciously perhaps, by old-line Tory Republicanism, will grow in strength in our land.”
    — Franklin D. Roosevelt, November 4, 1938
    (excerpt)
    In 1938 the word “fascism” hadn’t yet been transferred into an abridged metaphor for all the world’s unspeakable evil and monstrous crime, and on coming across President Roosevelt’s prescient remark in one of Umberto Eco’s essays, I could read it as prose instead of poetry — a reference not to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse or the pit of Hell but to the political theories that regard individual citizens as the property of the government, happy villagers glad to wave the flags and wage the wars, grateful for the good fortune that placed them in the care of a sublime leader. Or, more emphatically, as Benito Mussolini liked to say, “Everything in the state. Nothing outside the state. Nothing against the state.”

    The theories were popular in Europe in the 1930s (cheering crowds, rousing band music, splendid military uniforms), and in the United States they numbered among their admirers a good many important people who believed that a somewhat modified form of fascism (power vested in the banks and business corporations instead of with the army) would lead the country out of the wilderness of the Great Depression — put an end to the Pennsylvania labor troubles, silence the voices of socialist heresy and democratic dissent. Roosevelt appreciated the extent of fascism’s popularity at the political box office; so does Eco, who takes pains in the essay “Ur-Fascism,” published in The New York Review of Books in 1995, to suggest that it’s a mistake to translate fascism into a figure of literary speech. By retrieving from our historical memory only the vivid and familiar images of fascist tyranny (Gestapo firing squads, Soviet labor camps, the chimneys at Treblinka), we lose sight of the faith-based initiatives that sustained the tyrant’s rise to glory. The several experiments with fascist government, in Russia and Spain as well as in Italy and Germany, didn’t depend on a single portfolio of dogma, and so Eco, in search of their common ground, doesn’t look for a unifying principle or a standard text. He attempts to describe a way of thinking and a habit of mind, and on sifting through the assortment of fantastic and often contradictory notions — Nazi paganism, Franco’s National Catholicism, Mussolini’s corporatism, etc. — he finds a set of axioms on which all the fascisms agree. Among the most notable:

    The truth is revealed once and only once.

    Parliamentary democracy is by definition rotten because it doesn’t represent the voice of the people, which is that of the sublime leader.

    Doctrine outpoints reason, and science is always suspect.

    Critical thought is the province of degenerate intellectuals, who betray the culture and subvert traditional values.

    The national identity is provided by the nation’s enemies.

    Argument is tantamount to treason.

    Perpetually at war, the state must govern with the instruments of fear. Citizens do not act; they play the supporting role of “the people” in the grand opera that is the state.

    Eco published his essay ten years ago, when it wasn’t as easy as it has since become to see the hallmarks of fascist sentiment in the character of an American government. Roosevelt probably wouldn’t have been surprised.

    He’d encountered enough opposition to both the New Deal and to his belief in such a thing as a United Nations to judge the force of America’s racist passions and the ferocity of its anti-intellectual prejudice. As he may have guessed, so it happened. The American democracy won the battles for Normandy and Iwo Jima, but the victories abroad didn’t stem the retreat of democracy at home, after 1968 no longer moving “forward as a living force, seeking day and night to better the lot” of its own citizens, and now that sixty years have passed since the bomb fell on Hiroshima, it doesn’t take much talent for reading a cashier’s scale at Wal-Mart to know that it is fascism, not democracy, that won the heart and mind of America’s “Greatest Generation,” added to its weight and strength on America’s shining seas and fruited plains.

    A few sorehead liberal intellectuals continue to bemoan the fact, write books about the good old days when everybody was in charge of reading his or her own mail. I hear their message and feel their pain, share their feelings of regret, also wish that Cole Porter was still writing songs, that Jean Harlow and Robert Mitchum hadn’t quit making movies. But what’s gone is gone, and it serves nobody’s purpose to deplore the fact that we’re not still riding in a coach to Philadelphia with Thomas Jefferson. The attitude is cowardly and French, symptomatic of effete aesthetes who refuse to change with the times.

    As set forth in Eco’s list, the fascist terms of political endearment are refreshingly straightforward and mercifully simple, many of them already accepted and understood by a gratifyingly large number of our most forward-thinking fellow citizens, multitasking and safe with Jesus. It does no good to ask the weakling’s pointless question, “Is America a fascist state?” We must ask instead, in a major rather than a minor key, “Can we make America the best damned fascist state the world has ever seen,” an authoritarian paradise deserving the admiration of the international capital markets, worthy of “a decent respect to the opinions of mankind”? I wish to be the first to say we can. We’re Americans; we have the money and the know-how to succeed where Hitler failed, and history has favored us with advantages not given to the early pioneers.

    We don’t have to burn any books.
    (continued at link)

  85. 114

    Lys spews:

    GBS @ 21

    “My challenge to yearight @ 5 goes out to any conservative on this blog.

    Name ONE Democrat that said we should NOT wiretap terrorists!”

    Well, this is interesting. Here is a counter challenge. Name me one Democrat in the Senate or the House who has asked that the wiretapping be stopped. On anybody.

    Hello? Hello?

    Maybe you guys bneed to do a little housecleaning of your own before you attack “the right.”

  86. 115

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    DJ, Didn’t Kaczynski have a copy of Al Gore’s “Earth In The Balance” with lots of red underlining?

  87. 117

    GBS spews:

    lies @ 38

    Uh, are you kidding? Holy shit! Are you guys in for a wake up call come November.

    But, since you’re the one accusing us of being terrorist sympathizers; Name the Democrat who said no wiretapping of terrorists.

    Go on, big boy, tell us.

  88. 119

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    GBS, didn’t I meet your wife in Subic Bay in 78? She’s a swallower, isn’t she?

  89. 121

    GBS spews:

    I gave you the clues on the other thread. Remember?

    The Navy issued me an “M16/203.” “Just as I was getting out, guys in my ‘squad’ were getting m-249’s”

    Why don’t you google the clues and see what you get, tough guy.

    You’re 2nd place finsher. Always have been, always will be.

  90. 122

    Lys spews:

    GBS @ 41

    Maybe you should read my post again. No Democrat in the House or Senate has publicly asked the administration to stop wiretapping — of anyone! Sure, I’m a stupid conservative, but am I wrong?

  91. 123

    Lys spews:

    dj @ 22.

    McVeigh and Kaczynski are not from the right either. There have been about 2000 terrorist bombings throughout the United States since 1960. Leftists are responsible for almost all of them. In nost cases they publicly took credit for them. Goldy wrote the post. Why don’t you call him dishonest?

  92. 124

    GBS spews:

    Lys @ 16

    At least you recognize that there ARE wiretapping laws. How they came to be is not as important as the fact that BUSH is BREAKING them.

    Moron.

  93. 125

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    The only way to stop Islam terror is to kill all of them, a few hundred thousand at a time. Rev up the B-52s!

  94. 126

    GBS spews:

    JCH,

    You’re so far off the fucking mark it’s not even worht debate.

    What were you in charge of the XO’s gig?

    Loser.

  95. 128

    dj spews:

    Lys @ 23

    “The bottom line, folks, is that it is you guys, the left, the “progressives,” who have a historic track record of violence against those who don’t agree with you, and of the denial of rights and freedoms of everyone else.”

    You aren’t too bright are ya, Lys. I mean, the biggest act of domestic terrorism was…um…Oklahoma City. So, by your fucked up logic, that really makes the right wing the terrorists, no? (You logic is fucked up because you cannot define either “wing” by the extremists).

    “Don’t talk to me of cattle cars, you have been covering up, lying about, deflecting attention from, and denying the truth of cattle cars during the entire 20th century.”

    Ahhh…now I get it…you’re a wacko. That explains the rest of your rubbish.

  96. 129

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    GBS, A vote for a Democrat is a vote for terrorism and a third world country with cities like Detroit, Harare, and Philly.

  97. 130

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    “Don’t talk to me of cattle cars” [Lys] The Democrats would use cattle cars to move Mexicans INTO the US and from poll to poll to vote Democrat early and often.

  98. 131

    Lys spews:

    The bottom line, folks, is that it is you guys, the left, the “progressives,” who have a historic track record of violence against those who don’t agree with you, and of the denial of rights and freedoms of everyone else. This has been the case for the last 90 years, around the globe, in the United States, and here in good old Seattle. Don’t talk to me of cattle cars, you have been covering up, lying about, deflecting attention from, and denying the truth of cattle cars during the entire 20th century. You have no credibility.

  99. 132

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    16……17, cont, North Korea’s Great Leader and Dear Leader [“progressives”] 3 million killed, Sadaam [friend of Ramsey Clark]: 500,000 killed………Democrats: the idiots of the world!

  100. 134

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    Did Bobby and JFK really wiretap MLK, Jr?? Well, this must be Bush’s fault!! [hehe]

  101. 135

    GBS spews:

    My challenge to yearight @ 5 goes out to any conservative on this blog.

    Name ONE Democrat that said we should NOT wiretap terrorists!

    Lys, talk about inherent dishonesty. Just the level of corruption in the Republican party ought to be enough to make any conservative embarrassed. Let alone spending at a rate that makes even them most liberal of the liberals from “Tax-achusetts,” go whoaaaaa, that type of spending is way over the top.

    That’s not enough?

    How about Scooter Libby confessing in court that Dick Cheney and other superiors at the White House instructed him to out a CIA operative that eventually led to the unmasking of a covert CIA company, Brewster Jennings, whose sole purpose was to prevent terrorists and rouge nations from getting nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

    For what?

    To reduce Joe Wilson’s credibility about the false claims of the administrations about Iraq trying to get yellow cake form Niger and the lies they used in the run up to the Iraq War.

    More?

    How about letting Afghan warlords take the lead at Tora Bora when we had Osama Bin Laden trapped?

    What else could there be?

    How about appointing unqualified people to lead FEMA.

    The list of overt dishonesty and corruption coming from the Republicans is so long and dubious that it has reached a point that those who support Bush and the Republicans are clearly unpatriotic and un-American.

  102. 136

    dj spews:

    lys @ 6

    Sorry, jackass, you are highly confused. Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski were not coming from the left. Extremists arise from all corners of the political spectrum; when the destroy the property of others and kill people they are criminals.

    Trying to connect mainstream political ideologies from any end of the political spectrum to killers is dishonest. So go fuck yourself.

  103. 137

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    13, GBS……Joe Stalin, “progressive”: 25 million killed, Mao “progressive”: 30 million killed, Pol Pot and Uncle Ho [“progressives”]: 5 million killed, Fidel “progressive”: several hundred thousand killed………All lefties “progressives”! And all the friends of Democrats!

  104. 138

    Lys spews:

    GBS @3

    Gee, none of you people really know your history, do you? Most of our wiretapping laws came about as a result of abuses by Robert Kennedy and his Justice department. They wiretapped EVERYBODY without apology or excuse. One of Nixon’s whiny excuses when he was going down was “Gee, I’m just doing what everybody else does” Yet another parallel between Nixon and Clinton. The Church committee was very late to the game, and much of their legislation was in reaction to revelations of executive overreaching that had gone on for many years. The Justice dept. wiretaps of the sixties was just one example. JFK’s atttmepts to assasinate Castro was another. Church’s legislation was not just about Nixon.

  105. 139

    Saul Rosenberg, ESQ [JCH] spews:

    Why do the towel head terrorists and the Democrats like GBS and Anonymous sound alike?

  106. 140

    dj spews:

    yearight @ 4

    Fuck you, asshole. You just don’t get this whole American freedom thing, do you? You seem to be willing to surrender your fundamental freedoms because of a loose-knit gang of criminal zealots. You are fucking coward and a traitor.

    You want the freedoms that make the U.S. a great nation? Accept a little risk, you pussy. Other people died to preserve freedom for you.

  107. 141

    GBS spews:

    6

    You make a good point, but recent history does show that people who commit violent crimes against gays, or assassinate abortion clinic workers, or blow up federal building are domestic terrorists of the right wing variety.

    You just don’t see many lefties hanging out at cemeteries with signs that say “God Hates F@gs.”

  108. 143

    Anonymous spews:

    The weird thing is just how gullible the less intelligent in our society (read, Lys, JCH, Kevin Carns, prr, Mark Reddick, etc.) are. They feel that by spouting their hateful rhetoric and masturbating to a “brokeback moment” with GWB that they’ll be the ones loading the boxcars full of people and not the ones in the boxcars. I hate to let you guys into the secret, but the group of people in power right now have zero love for you guys and will crate you up the minute they can.

  109. 144

    proud leftist spews:

    Goldy,
    Thank you for a message that bears frequent repetition. The one thing Americans should cherish above anything else that America supposedly stands for–not military strength, not economic opportunity, not cultural influence–is our tradition of respect for civil liberties. That tradition, and only that tradition, distinguishes us from great nations of the past. The flippant disregard that the Bushites and their apologists show for civil liberties, like protection from warrantless searches, is boggling. I don’t know what such people think this nation is all about. I’ll accept some risk of terrorist attack, but I’ll be damned if I want someone listening to my telephone conversations or some fucking government agent knocking on my door and asking if he can come in and take a look around. I’m a helluva lot more concerned about these fucks depriving us of our right than I am of getting blown up by some terrorist.

  110. 145

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    Good thing all those “git a rope” (talking about Ron Sims) right wingers over at Sound Politics can write their hate-talk off as “just kidding.”

    The feeding frenzy over the death of the Gov’s dog the other day also shows these values voters really do lack compassion for just about everything. A couple commentators wrote something like “you’re feeding right into the left” by joking about the Gov’s dog; but even those folks refrained from condemning the actual disgusting statements people were making. It’s as if they are more worried about image than values.

    When you’re driven primarily by anger, that what happens, I suppose.

    But it’s those who actually pretend to be driven by godly love while they’re spouting off hateful comments are the most disturbing, I must say. At least the Christian Right has Fred Phelps to set the bar low enough, so their ungodly godly statements don’t seem too evil, by comparison.

  111. 146

    GBS spews:

    One more thing, yeawrong,

    How do you know for 100% certain Bush is only wiretapping terrorists??

    How do you KNOW that?

  112. 147

    Ted Smith spews:

    Minor point, but the Arkansas press says that Robida shot himself:

    “Massachusetts authorities told reporters Tuesday of the preliminary findings from the Arkansas State Crime Lab’s medical examiner that show police didn’t shoot Jacob Robida, 18, who killed a Gassville police officer Saturday.

    Instead, the findings indicate Robida killed himself.”

    http://www.baxterbulletin.com/.....90326/1002

  113. 148

    Lys spews:

    You don’t appear to know much history. On what evidence do you link Jacob Robida to “the right” or any other ideology, party, or political value system? As you know, most of the most horrible acts of the 20th century, the genocides, the gulags, the purges, the reeduction camps, the show trials, the denials of freedom and democracy, and the millions of deaths in Russia, China, Eastern Europe, and the rest of the world, arise from the left. Most of the bombings and terrorist acts in the U.S over the last 40 years were perpetrated by leftists such as yourself.

    I don’t know how long you’ve lived in the Seattle area, Goldy, but I’ve been around here since the sixties. The rash of bombings and other terrist acts we experienced in the seventies, along with the resurgence in the nineties, came from left. If you don’t believe me, I’ll take you around and show you the sites.

    You like to make fun of righties who complain over the Merry Christmas/happy holidays brouhaha, but it was Ron Sims who started it up in Seattle, by forbidding King County Employees to even say Merry Christmas on County property. The stifling of free expression at the UofW and at in our local school system comes from you leftists, not from us. I’ve seen it for myself.

    By the way, I think it’s hyperbole, melodrama and paranoia such as yours that really leads to bad acts. But that isn’t as bad as your inherent dishonesty.

  114. 149

    GBS spews:

    yeawrong,

    Pull your head out of your ass!!

    Name ONE Democrat that said we should NOT wiretap terrorist!!!

    You’re so fucking gullible, it’s amazing.

  115. 150

    yearight spews:

    GBS-3 ..wiretapping his enemies..

    The left seems pretty worried about the al Qaeda wiretaps. I guess it must be pretty hard to always have the lefty message parallel that of the terrorists only by coincidence.

    What was the saying…your enemy’s enemy is your friend, and Bush is your enemy. Do the math.

    Now that GW is going to brief the whole intel committee on the terror wiretaps we will hear much more about it. With only a couple of dems briefed before it would have been too obvious who did the leaking. Now it will be harder to tell which dem is endangering Americans.

  116. 151

    GBS spews:

    One thing is for certain, Republicans do NOT know, or simply ignore history.

    Suppose for a moment that members of Al Qaeda go to a WAC gun show and buy up a bunch of AR-15’s and then use them to kill a hundreds of people at a public event, say opening day of the Mariners. And, George W. Bush, under the “powers” granted to him by the “Authorization to use Force” decides that gun ownership in America is now illegal, will the conservatives then feel their civil liberties are being taken away?

    If the answer is yes, then where is the outrage when Bush takes away you’re right to privacy?

    In a monarchy, the King is Law, but in America, the Law is King!

    George W. Bush is violating the FISA laws. Which was enacted by congress and signed into law by President Carter after the Church Committee Reports revealed that Nixon abused the powers of the Executive Branch by, ironically, wiretapping his enemies who were opposed to him in a time of “war.”

    Sound familiar?

  117. 152

    spews:

    I’m amazed at how eager the cons are to give away our God-given rights in defense of those rights. Do we torture innocents? Sure, if it’ll give us “security”. How about burning Iraqi civilians with phosphorus? Sure, if it means progress in the War On Ragheads. What a debased and immoral way to conduct a war.