Frank Rich: Just how gay is the right?

It’s not often I get to be out in front of Frank Rich on an issue, but as usual, my favorite New York Times columnist, manages to make his point more eloquently and persuasively than I could ever hope to. [“Just How Gay Is the Right?“] Ah well, I suppose that’s why Rich is an Op-Ed columnist for the paper of record, whereas I’m… well… just some blogger.

Rich uses the DVD release of the 1962 political potboiler “Advise and Consent” as a springboard for discussing the right’s war on the judiciary and the violently anti-gay rhetoric that fuels it. The movie focuses on a McCarthy-era confirmation battle, and the gay secret of a conservative Senator from Utah. It depicts the gay-baiters as the real menace.

That message remains on target now. But in the years since, even as it has ceased to be a crime or necessarily a political career-breaker to be gay, unprincipled gay-baiting has mushroomed into a full-fledged political movement. It’s a virulent animosity toward gay people that really unites the leaders of the anti-“activist” judiciary crusade, not any intellectually coherent legal theory (they’re for judicial activism when it might benefit them in Florida). Their campaign menaces the country on a grander scale than Drury and Preminger ever could have imagined: it uses gay people as cannon fodder on the way to its greater goal of taking down a branch of government that is crucial to the constitutional checks and balances that “Advise and Consent” so powerfully extols.

Rich goes on to present a rogues gallery of right-wing notables “whipping up homophobia” including Jerry Falwell’s “Declaration of War” against homosexuality, Pat Robertson’s claim that activist judges are a greater threat than Al Qaeda, and former Alabama chief justice Roy Moore (of Ten Commandments monument fame) who has suggested the state has the power to prohibit homosexual conduct at penalty of death. And of course, Rich points out the irony that I have been somewhat dwelling on recently.

What adds a peculiar dynamic to this anti-gay juggernaut is the continued emergence of gay people within its ranks. Allen Drury would have been incredulous if gay-baiters hounding his Utah senator had turned out to be gay themselves, but this has been a consistent pattern throughout the 30-year war. Terry Dolan, a closeted gay man, ran the National Conservative Political Action Committee, which as far back as 1980 was putting out fund-raising letters that said, “Our nation’s moral fiber is being weakened by the growing homosexual movement and the fanatical E.R.A. pushers (many of whom publicly brag they are lesbians).” (Dolan recanted and endorsed gay rights before he died of AIDS in 1986.) The latest boldface name to marry his same-sex partner in Massachusetts is Arthur Finkelstein, the political operative behind the electoral success of Jesse Helms, a senator so homophobic he voted in the minority of the 97-to-3 reauthorization of the Ryan White act for AIDS funding and treatment in 1995.

But surely the most arresting recent case is James E. West, the powerful Republican mayor of Spokane, Wash., whose double life has just been exposed by the local paper, The Spokesman-Review. Mr. West’s long, successful political career has been distinguished by his attempts to ban gay men and lesbians from schools and day care centers, to fire gay state employees, to deny City Hall benefits to domestic partners and to stifle AIDS-prevention education. The Spokesman-Review caught him trolling gay Web sites for young men and trying to lure them with gifts and favors. (He has denied accusations of abusing boys when he was a Boy Scout leader some 25 years ago.) Not unlike the Roy Cohn of “Angels in America” – who describes himself as “a heterosexual man” who has sex “with guys” – Mr. West has said he had “relations with adult men” but doesn’t “characterize” himself as gay. This is more than hypocrisy – it’s pathology.

Some of my readers have criticized me for trying to tarnish the image of the far-right Christian movement by focusing on the personal hypocrisy of a few of its leaders, but as Rich points out, this is more than just the ironic tale of a handful of secretly-gay gay-bashers… it is politics, pure and simple.

A likely inspiration for the gay plot line in Drury’s “Advise and Consent” was the real-life story of a Wyoming Democrat, Lester Hunt, who shot himself in his Senate office in 1954 after the Republican Campaign Committee threatened to make an issue of his gay son’s arrest in Lafayette Park on “morals charges.” Those were the dark ages, but it isn’t entirely progress that we now have a wider war on gay people, thinly disguised as a debate over the filibuster, cloaked in religion, and counting among its shock troops politicians as utterly bereft of moral bearings as James West.

People have always hated gays, but anti-gay sentiment is now being politicized, much in the same way the Nazis politicized long standing anti-Jewish sentiment to help secure Hitler’s ambitions in the early 1930’s. So if you think I’ve just been writing about sex or religion or hypocrisy, you’ve missed the point entirely. I’ve been writing about the politics of hate, and warning about the dire consequences to our republic should it be allowed to triumph.

Comments

  1. 2

    Erik spews:

    Great article Goldy. I have always gotten a creepy feeling from the zealous bible thumper as they are usually the newly converted and are fighting feverously to keep themselves in line. Is the politics of some of the more active right the same?

    People have always hated gays, but anti-gay sentiment is now being politicized, much in the same way the Nazis politicized long standing anti-Jewish sentiment to help secure Hitler’s ambitions in the early 1930’s.

    I almost always catagorically dislike Nazi comparisons. You can make a million camparisons with the Nazis and then try to make your opponent look like a Nazi. Perhaps it is warranted in some situations, but rarely.

  2. 3

    Brenda Helverson spews:

    If you ignore what the Nazis did to the World, then you ignore history. The Nazis burned the Reichstag, blamed it on the liberals, and rode to power on a wave of public fear. Does this scenario sound the least bit familiar to you?

  3. 4

    righton spews:

    I might have tried to read the article until I saw the quips about his Nazi references. No thanks. Give me a break. Talk about a red herring.

    I guess Rich + Goldy = official spin for you guys

  4. 5

    Scott spews:

    Well it looks like George Bush and Righton have something in common…they won’t read the newspaper.

  5. 6

    righton spews:

    Scott

    Rich is a predictable (always) left winger. Do you read Krauthammer or Coulter (similar versions, just on the right)?

  6. 7

    righton spews:

    And back to the ridiculous Nazi thing, should we try to tarr libs by noting the Nazis also embraced abortion? Left only wants fit mothers to have babies when babies are also fit, … sounds like 1937 to me.. (ha)

  7. 8

    Patrick spews:

    It’s important to understand the difference between traditional Republican conservatives and neo-conservatives. The latter are NOT “conservatives” in any sense, and do NOT believe in limited government. Their intellectual godfather is Leo Strauss, a Chicago University economics professor, and the roots of their movement lie in Trotskyite communism. From that starting point, their political belief system morphed into a version of fascism, is fundamentally totalitarian in nature, and they do NOT believe in democracy, the right to vote, free speech, right of assembly, or freedom of religion; and like all authoritarians who derive inspiration from Leninism, they are willing to use fraud, propaganda, lying, and if necessary violence to obtain and perpetuate their political power. In this context, it is easy to understand why they want to destroy the independent judiciary and ensure the courts will rubber stamp their political agenda, whether it involves restricting free speech and suppressing opposition to their policies, imposing a state religion (designed to further their political and economic aims) on the populace, or executing gays and other scapegoats or enemies.

    As for the “Nazi” reference, it is very important to never forget that most of Hitler’s followers were ordinary people whose human nature was played upon to get them to do the things they did; and that, in the wrong circumstances, almost any of us could be duped into following a demogogic leader of equally dangerous, destructive, and murderous tendencies.

    If you think that isn’t possible in America, look no farther than the anger and hatred that some people who sincerely regard themselves as patriotic Americans directed against anyone who questioned the wisdom of Bush’s aggression against Iraq, a country that had not threatened or attacked the U.S., in the ramp-up to the invasion. In the weeks preceding the war, and during the months that followed, I read many many many comments on right-leaning message boards from people threatening physical violence against anti-war protesters; and of course, they labeled as “unpatriotic” and “anti-American” and “against the troops” anyone who opposed Bush who thought this war was a bad idea. (As we now know, it is THEY whose actions have harmed America and killed over 1,600 American soldiers, and it is THEY who deserve to be called unpatriotic, un-American, traitors.)

  8. 9

    Patrick spews:

    What I don’t yet understand is why real Republicans allowed their party to be hijacked by these anti-conservatives, and why they’re still doing little or nothing to recapture their party.

  9. 10

    righton spews:

    Patrick

    Good point on the left wing of the GOP hijacking us. I favor Goldwater small gov’t, no deficits.

    Earlier point on Nazis. Nazis were not the ordinary Germans, though ordinary Germans certainly gave them air cover. Goldhagen’s book, i think was 5-10 yrs ago on the good german i think nailed this well. But again Nazi’s per se was a political party and the elites belonged.

    Neo-con is thought by many to be code for “jewish conservatives” and thus an anti-semitic slur. Who are the prominent WASP neo-cons that you are objecting to?

    And then regarding a Kristalnacht in the US against gays or whatever. Not a chance. You might be able to argue, “guys we are on the verge of getting our political wishes finally embodied in law, but these rascally republicans slowed us down. There’s nothing mainstream in the GOP that would do any more than stall the left wing drift. Nobody is pushing to go back to 1840 or 1905..

  10. 11

    jpgee spews:

    and to add fire to the already considerable flames in our nation:

    http://www.pollingreport.com/

    A Catholic Priest in St. Paul denied the Holy Sacrament to over 100 attendees because they wore a rainbow sash or rainbow pin…. What next for the right wing nuts? Death penalty for rainbows?

  11. 12

    righton spews:

    jpgee,
    Go complain to the church; they can define their doctrine (freedom of religion, remember)

    you guys yank the “death/nazi” cord so often (and w/ ludicrous logic) that you have no impact.

  12. 13

    danw spews:

    We have no effect to those who don’t read and look at the similarities, you may thinking we are crying wolf, but there is just too much in common. I read Krauthammer this morning, I don’t agree with him, but I read him.

  13. 14

    chardonnay spews:

    righton @ 12
    that’s the lefts favorite trick, accuse your opponent of, exactly what you are guilty of.
    the Nazi rhetoric they use only works on their sheeple. I thought I heard Nazi’s were gay.

  14. 16

    Donnageddon spews:

    righhton @ 10 “Good point on the left wing of the GOP hijacking us”

    Could you please explain what you meant by this?

  15. 17

    drivel spews:

    chardonnay @ 14… lol, no chards, that gay one was your first husband after having to live with you for two years

  16. 18

    pbj spews:

    “People have always hated gays, but anti-gay sentiment is now being politicized, much in the same way the Nazis politicized long standing anti-Jewish sentiment to help secure Hitler’s ambitions in the early 1930’s.”

    Just couldn’t get through a thread without a Nazi reference could you?

  17. 19

    pbj spews:

    I have to wonder where the parallel is supposed to be with Nazi germany and gays in the US. Where is Nazi Germany did they have media broadcasts “Jewish Eye for the Aryan Guy”?

    When the left screams that we are living in a totalitarian state where freedom of speech doesn’t exists and gays are being marched off to death camps (Ok, they haven’t exactly said that…YET), they lose any shred of credibility. Because any logical person must ask themselves how such a blogs as Goldy’s and Daily KOS and even the New York Times itself are allowed to publish if the Rightwing Nazis are supposed to be supressing them.

  18. 20

    Donnageddon spews:

    pbj @ 19 “When the left screams that we are living in a totalitarian state where freedom of speech doesn’t exists and gays are being marched off to death camps (Ok, they haven’t exactly said that…YET), ”

    Are you suggesting we wait?

  19. 22

    christmasghost spews:

    Oh good try Goldy….could you reach any further? And Frank Rich…yeah ,there’s the last word on anything. Oh, please.
    And your little shot about not reading newspapers……oh, that’s right they are so accurate aren’t they. Jayson Blair ring any bells for you? How about the newsweek story that they flushed the koran down the toilet? That story is totally FALSE….but it got alot of people killed. It seems the only people stupid enough to take anything our “newspapers” or news mags have to say seriously are those in third world countries that seem to take them as marching orders.Then they run out and kill people.
    Our newspapers used to just ruin people’s lives and campaigns…now they are killing them.

  20. 23

    DamnageD spews:

    Yet again, the word “Nazi” shows up and the entire point “if you think I’ve just been writing about sex or religion or hypocrisy, you’ve missed the point entirely. I’ve been writing about the politics of hate” is ignored. To argue and dismiss the basis of what Hitler was attempting, and not see the similarties in the current political climate, is to allow history to repeat its self.

    Granted, queers aren’t being rounded up and put onto trains, but the groundwork of fear, misunderstanding and hate is already laid. Considering folks cannot even believe that being queer is not a choice, but as much a physical characteristic as being Spanish, African or Asian.

    Too many people blindly follow these monsters that preach the word of God, when in reality, their just as “evil” (or worse) then the thing they’re standing out against. How ironic the Catholic church locked its doors against folks that have no issue with queers. How quickly they seem to have forgotten their sins!!

    So just exactly is it with peoples hang up with queers anyways? Are ya scared of them? Think theyre gonna come after ya, cocks a waggin? Think your gonna catch some queer germ at the drinking fountain? Think your kids are gonna run off to get their ass pounded? WHAT?!?

    The entire climate of queer fear looks discustingly similar to the 50’s and 60’s when blacks were fighting for equality. One major difference being they couldnt “hide” like the hypocrites today can.

  21. 24

    Another TJ spews:

    that’s the lefts favorite trick, accuse your opponent of, exactly what you are guilty of.

    Is there a cleaning product specifically designed to get dripping irony off my computer screen? I’m in desperate need of one after this comment. Thanks in advance.

    ATJ

  22. 25

    Patrick spews:

    Reply to 19, I have seen plenty of comments from right wing extremists … including Ann Coulter … calling for the executions or deaths of liberals. That’s where the concern of liberals over possible Nazi parallels is coming from. When fanatics go around talking about killing people they disagree with, doesn’t it seem logical the people they’re talking about might be concerned they mean it and would do it if they got the chance? And when those ideologues are seeking (1) permanent one-party rule, (2) a captive judiciary that will look the other way at torture, arrest without trial, and suppression of dissent, and (3) extrajudicial powers (e.g., declaring people “enemy combatants” without trial or evidence), doesn’t that appear as though they’re trying to get that chance?

    There is some of information on the internet about an alleged Federal Emergency Management Agency program called Rex 84 that involves the federal government building concentration camps in the U.S. to detain U.S. citizens. I don’t know whether this is true, but these camps exist, then I find the talk about killing liberals by people like Coulter downright frightening. This is why the Nazi comparisons are being made, because just by reading and listening to neocon opinion leaders, we’ve conclude they don’t believe in democracy, the rule of law, or even the right to live of people they dislike.

    Take a look at these links and decide for yourself whether there is anything to this so-called Rex 84 program. I hope these web sites are just wacko, but I’m not convinced this program doesn’t exist.

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/camps.html
    http://www.sianews.com/modules.....8;sid=1062
    http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/fema.htm
    http://www.freedomdomain.com/concamp.html

  23. 26

    DamnageD spews:

    @ 24

    What your looking for is called “Crainial Bleach”. It’s been available in bulk since before the Iraqi invasion, and in Super-duper Industrial Strength since the elections. You can order it anywhere that GOP products are sold.

  24. 27

    pbj spews:

    Patrick@25,

    “including Ann Coulter … calling for the executions or deaths of liberals.”

    Please provide me one damn link to ANYTHING Ann Coulter said that wasn’t satirical in which she called for executions of liberals???

  25. 28

    pbj spews:

    Patrick@25,

    “When fanatics go around talking about killing people they disagree with, doesn’t it seem logical the people they’re talking about might be concerned they mean it and would do it if they got the chance? “

    Yes, we should be concerned. Such as when liberals wear shirts that say “kill Bush” or put on plays “I am going to kill Bush”. I am very concerned.

    But with liberals, the desire to kill Bush has gone mainstream.
    Liberal paper UK Guardian called for Bush’s assasination with this line “John Wilkes-Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr, where are you now that we need you?”

    The Guardian pulled the piece offline, but you can read it here.

    It is in fact liberals who are filled with hate and rage. They march angrily through the streets smashing windows and destroying private property. The WTO riots were perfect examples of the liberal fascists in action. Anyone who disagrees with them had better watch out or the liberal mob will attack.

  26. 30

    Goldy spews:

    pbj @18, et al:

    I have never once, in over a year of blogging compared anybody to the Nazis. Never. Go ahead and type the word “Nazi” into my search field. You will find that word only appears a handful of times, and almost exclusively in the quotes of others. Indeed, on one such occasion I go out of my way to write:

    Yes, it would be counterproductive hyperbole to call the Republican leadership and their Dominionist backers “Nazis”…

    In this post I made an accurate historical comparison. In the late 1920’s and early 1930’s, the Nazis did indeed use anti-semitism as an integral part of their strategy to gain political power. And yes, the far-right is using anti-gay rhetoric as an integral part of their strategy to gain political power today. Don’t like it, tough. Or refute my observation if you can.

    Just couldn’t get through a thread without a Nazi reference could you?

    And you know what pbj, I’m a touch disappointed by your offhanded attempt to dismiss my comments with a lazy little lie. I put time and effort into my posts, and then you come here and blow a couple brain-farts through your keyboard. Next time, do twenty-seconds worth of research before you accusing me something, okay?

  27. 31

    DamnageD spews:

    Awww…Goldy let him be. It just goes to show how LITTLE they really do pay attention to whats being said around them (and reinforces their image of blow-hards).

  28. 32

    pbj spews:

    Goldy,

    If you didn’t mean to infer it, you wouldn’t have mentioned it.

    Here are some examples, though it appears you wrote the book on inferred references:

    Far be it from me to make the implications that others might that Ted Kennedy is a murderer for his involvement in the death of Mary Jo.

    Yes, it would be counterproductive hyperbole to call the liberal left a bunch of kommies or sochialists (spelling errors on purpose to get around freedom of speech filter).

    See I never called anyone anything.

  29. 33

    righton spews:

    Goldy, you say
    a) nazi’s used rhetoric, that led to the Holocaust
    b) rhetoric today might lead to same

    I guess if I had time i’d come up with gobs of harmless rhetoric…that is, heated words in US society that never has and never will lead to a new Holocaust. Come on, you are using the Nazi card, and in a pretty anemic way

  30. 34

    thehim spews:

    Please provide me one damn link to ANYTHING Ann Coulter said that wasn’t satirical in which she called for executions of liberals???

    She did, in fact, express a desire for the New York Times building to be blown up. You can think that’s satire, but for most of the people who listen to her, they don’t. And that’s the problem.

    It is definitely not beyond the pale to discuss Coulter in terms of Nazi ideology. I’ve read both Treason and Mein Kampf, and they are startlingly similar books. Mein Kampf makes four major points that are clearly echoed in Treason.

    1. People within Germany who were anti-war during World War I were traitors and were actively helping the enemy to defeat the German state

    2. The “liberal” press in Germany was actively undermining the state by refusing to propagandize

    3. Racial minorities were a threat to the strength of the German nation and that profiling individuals by race is necessary

    4. The theatre and arts of the German society were becoming immoral, and the purveyors of these types of art were contributing to the decline in German society

    If you can’t see the similarities between that and Coulter’s writings, you’re willfully sticking your head in the sand. Not everyone on the right is as bad as her (in fact, hardly anyone is). But to not recognize the obvious comparisons here is just naivete.

    And since I’m guessing you’ve never read Mein Kampf, I’ll try to keep you from making an ass of yourself in your reply. Nowhere in that book did Hitler directly advocate the killing of anyone as well.

  31. 36

    chardonnay spews:

    all you numnutz getting all paranoid is sad. feeling a little in the minority lately?

  32. 37

    thehim spews:

    No links? No evidence, just massive generalizations.

    Uh, yeah, the content of Mein Kampf is a massive generalization. Are you going to rebut any of it, or are you going to keep pretending that reality is an inconvenience to you?

    I guess in your little fantasy world, everything is what you want it to be. If something goes against your worldview, you just dismiss it.

    I suggest you read Mein Kampf. It’s certainly not the easiest book to get though, as Hitler’s almost random writing style doesn’t translate well to English, but the points are made, and it’s not very hard to see the parallels between Hitler’s view of German nationalism and Ann Coulter’s view of American patriotism. Here are a few select quotes that are directly from Mein Kampf:

    “If today more than ever our Left politicians are at pains to point out the lack of arms as the necessary cause of their spineless, compliant, actually treasonous policy, we must answer only one thing: no, the reverse is true. Through your anti-national, criminal policy of abandoning national interests, you surrendered our arms. Now you attempt to represent the lack of arms as the underlying cause of your miserable villainy. This, like everything you do, is lies and falsification.”

    “Another thing that got on my nerves was the loathsome cult for France which the big press, even then, carried on. A man couldn’t help feeling ashamed to be a German when he saw these saccharine hymns of praise to the ‘great cultural nation.’ This wretched licking of France’s boots more than once made me throw down one of these ‘world newspapers.'”

    “Didn’t many circles express the most shameless joy at the misfortune of the fatherland? And who would do such a thing if he does not really deserve such a punishment? Why, didn’t they go even further and brag of having finally caused the front to waver? And it was not the enemy that did this – no, no, it was the Germans who poured such disgrace upon their heads!”

    This is not to mention the eerie parallels between the way Hitler denigrated Jews and the way Coulter is able to denigrate both Muslims and liberals.

    There’s quite a bit more of course, I actually have a good list on my home computer of all the passages from Mein Kampf which echo sentiments you hear every day on right wing radio, and that also brings up another of the most fascinating aspects of Mein Kampf. And that’s his adoration for the power of the spoken word, and its influence. Nationalism thrives on those who have a tremendous power for propaganda. True, people on the left can do this as well, but the key thing to understand about Hitler was that, like Ann Coulter, and many others on the right, they infuse it with radical nationalism. That’s why it’s foolish to compare Hitler with anyone other than those on the American right, who wrap themselves in the flag and attach anyone who questions the homeland.

  33. 39

    righton spews:

    thehim you be ridiculous

    While you all might want to hate Coulter, pull back and listen to what you are saying…. she has a schtick, and its pretty good, but so do lots of lefties. None are within 1000 miles of Adolph.

    Something about tossing in the Nazi allusion when you run out of steam is to me somehow (inarticulate on this) related to having to be politically correct; no clue the issues, but total obedience to tarring your enemies..

  34. 40

    thehim spews:

    feeling a little in the minority lately?

    Chardonnay, there are a lot reasons that you should be embarrassed for yourself, but maybe the most prominent reason is that you still think that it’s more important to be popular than to be right. I don’t care if others don’t agree with me. I only care about being right. If you truly cared about this country, and not about promoting an agenda paid for by people that think you’re as dumb as a lamppost, maybe you’d be able to hold your head up high and be a proud American. I can, and it’s because I will never base any of my beliefs on what’s popular, or what other people tell me to believe.

    You should be ashamed of yourself for the approach you take towards politics, and this country is getting weaker and weaker every day you let others put thoughts in your head that we are neatly divided up into two sides who must never learn to have a discourse involving the facts and the realities of life.

  35. 41

    Patrick spews:

    Reply to 27, Coulter did advocate putting liberals to death, and I won’t accept “satire” as an excuse, nor should any other liberal. When you say something like that, the people you are talking about have every right to take your words at face value.

    If a liberal threatened to shoot Coulter on sight in “self defense” would Coulter accept that remark as “satire” or press charges? My guess is she wouldn’t think it was very funny, and would be demanding prosecution.

  36. 42

    righton spews:

    And Franken and McAulifee also threatened conservatives (no facts behind this, but a baseless assertion like #41..urban legend she called for death to the libs)

  37. 43

    thehim spews:

    thehim you be ridiculous

    Only if you beg.

    While you all might want to hate Coulter, pull back and listen to what you are saying…. she has a schtick, and its pretty good, but so do lots of lefties. None are within 1000 miles of Adolph.

    I’m sorry, that’s simply not correct. Her rhetoric is actually similar. You can think she’s joking all you want, but if she or someone else wanted to get serious about following through on her suggestions (keep in mind that she suggests that a large number of Americans are guilty of felonies and that Muslims should have reduced rights), you know full well there will be support for it. There are some significant differences between the Germany of the 20s and America today, but the kind of rhetoric being thrown around is very similar. And even though Coulter has the right to express her opinion, we should have the sense as Americans to recognize it as hate speech in the league of Mein Kampf and dismiss it as garbage.

    Something about tossing in the Nazi allusion when you run out of steam is to me somehow (inarticulate on this) related to having to be politically correct; no clue the issues, but total obedience to tarring your enemies..

    I don’t have time to find an internet site that will translate this sentence into English, but if I understand the gist of it, I think you’re saying I think that:

    1. My opposition to Coulter is somehow rooted in political correctness

    2. My main desire is to “tar my enemies”

    My opposition to Coulter has nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with trying to ensure that this country has a healthy debate between the left and the right. I enter into political discussion with people from both the left and the right all the time. As a moderate, I tend to fall somewhere near the middle on many issues, but have found myself in 2005 to be in agreeance with the left more than I ever have. The struggle to “tar my enemies” extends to a broad range of things, but it’s not something most people understand. I am a moderate, and my enemies are extremists. I believe that if you have bought full-on into a certain ideology, and don’t have any ability to have a rational discussion about it, then you are my “enemy”, in a sense. For example, I have gotten into heated arguments recently with people on the left who support city-wide tobacco bans in bars and restaurants. To me, that’s a form of extremism, and therefore, I disagree with it.

    My problem with Coulter (and I don’t have this problem with most other commentators on the right), is that she has no concern at all for the truth, and that she uses propagandizing and hate speech in such a non-chalant way, that she has actually given people like Chardonnay much more encouragement to follow along in the extremist mindset. Therefore, she is my “enemy”, not because she’s on the right, but because she is a threat to moderation.

  38. 44

    thehim spews:

    And Franken and McAulifee also threatened conservatives (no facts behind this, but a baseless assertion like #41..urban legend she called for death to the libs)

    Nice. So if you suspect someone else is throwing around baseless accusations, then it’s ok for you to do so yourself? You’re a sad human being.

  39. 45

    righton spews:

    thehim…

    Lots of mud, nothing sticking.

    Lets see, strident woman conservative lays it down hard. Left goes nuts, quickly equates her style to advocating death, then to being a Nazi. Don’t you have anything higher on the invective scale? I mean once you call us all Nazis, you really cannot top that…

  40. 46

    pbj spews:

    Thehim @37 et al
    Patrick@41

    Again you cannot show me one quote, provide one link that proves your point. You think somehow that saying everyone is a Nazi unless they disagree with you will somehow make your point valid. Nazi references do not substitute for facts.

    Again:

    Please provide me one damn link to ANYTHING Ann Coulter said that wasn’t satirical in which she called for executions of liberals???

  41. 47

    pbj spews:

    Meanwhile, I have provided you with PROOF that mainstream liberal press is advocating assasination as a means to gain political power. Who are the fascists now?

    The original Guradian UK article advocating killing Bush was pulled , but you can read the archived article here:

    http://www.dummocrats.com/archives/000523.php

    Just goes to show how crazy liberals are.

  42. 48

    righton spews:

    Randi Rhodes too, or whatever her name is; she threatened too? (sorry, don’t store her info too well). Guess she’s a Nazi also?

  43. 49

    chardonnay spews:

    thehim @ 40
    more psycho babble from you on can’t we all get along. NO, not as long as Democrats act like lying spoiled brats. Perfect example thehimgod is the ACLU. On a mission to destroy everything American. And the left condones it. Your party is in fact in the minority nationally. I’m guessing the trend will continue as long as YOU keep your head in the sand.

  44. 50

    chardonnay spews:

    Oh ya, Randi Rhodes, calling for someone to shoot the President. Hmmmm, the left is so tolerant. Where is the outrage thehim? How is THAT moving forward to save America?

  45. 51

    thehim spews:

    Lets see, strident woman conservative lays it down hard. Left goes nuts, quickly equates her style to advocating death, then to being a Nazi. Don’t you have anything higher on the invective scale? I mean once you call us all Nazis, you really cannot top that…

    When exactly did I call all of you Nazis? This is what I wrote:

    “It is definitely not beyond the pale to discuss Coulter in terms of Nazi ideology. I’ve read both Treason and Mein Kampf, and they are startlingly similar books. Mein Kampf makes four major points that are clearly echoed in Treason.”

    I haven’t in any way called anyone on this board a Nazi. I don’t think very highly of some of the people on this board, and that I freely admit. But calling someone a Nazi requires that they’ve written several books that are nearly identical to the major philosophies of Hitler (i.e. Ann Coulter).

    There are a lot of people on the right who harshly criticize Coulter, and those are the people that I truly hope will rescue the Republican party from the depths into illogic and unreason that it has descended to.

    Again you cannot show me one quote, provide one link that proves your point. You think somehow that saying everyone is a Nazi unless they disagree with you will somehow make your point valid. Nazi references do not substitute for facts.

    Again:

    Please provide me one damn link to ANYTHING Ann Coulter said that wasn’t satirical in which she called for executions of liberals???

    Link

    “My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building.”

    “We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too.”

    And once again, let me remind you that that was two more times than Hitler even directly advocated killing liberals or Jews in Mein Kampf. I realize that talking about Nazis confuses a lot of you who think that what happened in Nazi Germany was something truly bizarre that could never happen anywhere else, but it’s not. Nazi Germany happened because one person pointed at a subset of people that included minorities, liberals, the press, and “big city elites,” called them traitors, and a national movement was born that ended up with exterminating millions of people. If you think that someone like Ann Coulter standing up and being taken seriously for saying nearly the same exact things here is not a potential threat, you are simply being naive.

  46. 52

    thehim spews:

    Meanwhile, I have provided you with PROOF that mainstream liberal press is advocating assasination as a means to gain political power. Who are the fascists now?

    PBJ,
    I obviously don’t condone assassinating anyone, but there is a very big difference between advocating the murder of a single person, and advocating the murder of a large vaguely-defined group of people. It’s essentially the difference between murder and genocide.

  47. 53

    righton spews:

    a. Mein Kampf was years (decades i think) before Kristalnacht, and the worse to follow

    b. If she said that about mcVeigh bad.

    c. Other quip on John Walker I read differently. I think she meant (only off this quip) that if more liberals knew that jetting off to Afganistan and giving moral support and maybe also phsysical and financial support to the Taliban/Al quieda puts their own lives at risk, they’d stop the stupid “ivory tower” support of guys like Walker. I did not read it as harshly as you.

  48. 54

    thehim spews:

    more psycho babble from you on can’t we all get along. NO, not as long as Democrats act like lying spoiled brats.

    Lying, spoiled brats? Who? Me? Goldy? This is the problem. You make these ridiculous generalizations with absolutely no evidence, statistics, or any relevant information to back it up.

    Perfect example thehimgod is the ACLU. On a mission to destroy everything American.

    The ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union. Their mission is to ensure that the U.S. government follows the document that our founding fathers crafted as the foundation for this country. How on earth does that equate to “destroying everything American?” Seriously, you could not have picked a worse example for that.

    Your party is in fact in the minority nationally. I’m guessing the trend will continue as long as YOU keep your head in the sand.

    Again, I’d much rather be right than popular. This trend will certainly continue as long as most Americans continue to believe in fairy tales and unreason. As I’ve explained to you before, Chardonnay, I grew up among the wealthy elites of the east coast. The latte-sipping, French-speaking, elites who think they’re so much better than you. Well, I have a newsflash for you. They’re all Republicans too. And when they told you that Saddam and Al Qaeda were one and the same, they knew you’d be dumb enough to believe it. And when they told you that Saddam was definitely hiding dangerous weapons and that we didn’t have time for the inspections to prove it, they knew you’d be dumb enough to believe it. And when they tell you that lower taxes and getting rid of social security will help you get ahead, they know you’re dumb enough to believe it. These people count on your stupidity every day to make sure that they never have to worry about losing their grip on power, and it works really, really well when people like you don’t question them.

    My best friend from high school is a pretty good example of the Republicans my age from where I grew up. His father is the CEO of pharmaceutical company. He’s 30 years old, no college degree, and has never held a job for more than a year if I remember correctly. Most of the time, he doesn’t do anything other than various drugs and going out to bars. He listens to right-wing talk radio and tried to once tell me that France wasn’t a Democracy. He believes that George Bush did cocaine at Camp David, did cocaine for much of his adult life, and he still thinks that Bush is one of the greatest Presidents we’ve had, because he makes sure that the rich are treated well. And if you think he’s that much of an exception to the rule, you’re in for a rude awakening, my friend.

  49. 55

    thehim spews:

    Mein Kampf was years (decades i think) before Kristalnacht, and the worse to follow

    True, but it should still alarm you that a book that echoes so many themes of Mein Kampf is so popular in our nation right now. What I worry about is that when Iraq plays out to its conclusion, the atmosphere of resentment over it will echo the kind of resentment felt in Germany after WWI. We have no chance right now of ever leaving Iraq with American standing being better than what it was before that war, and if the people in this country end up blaming “liberals” for that, we’re in trouble.

    c. Other quip on John Walker I read differently. I think she meant (only off this quip) that if more liberals knew that jetting off to Afganistan and giving moral support and maybe also phsysical and financial support to the Taliban/Al quieda puts their own lives at risk, they’d stop the stupid “ivory tower” support of guys like Walker. I did not read it as harshly as you.

    I’ve heard a lot about how Coulter is “joking”, and how she shouldn’t be taken seriously. That would be fine if people didn’t take here seriously, but people do. She was on the cover of TIME magazine a few weeks back and presented as if she were a serious voice in the national debate. Sadly, if she’s only joking, that would be like Stone Cold Steve Austin being on the cover of Sports Illustrated and being presented as a serious competitor.

  50. 56

    righton spews:

    thehim

    I didn’t say she was joking; i was saying her words had a different purpose; not a warning to liberals that they are at risk amongst us, rather if they really think the Taliban is kind and our friend, go over there and bear the consequences

    Mein Kampf; talk about a red herring. None of us have read it, so we take your word that Coulter’s writing is like Mein Kampf. Its the same method of tarring her w/ the Nazi thing.

    Make the argument w/out the Nazi baggage.. Go show how her words lead to Stalinism, or some autocratic regime, or to a stiffling of dissent, etc. The nazi thing is the lazy way out. There’s been a lot of middle bad dudes out there that didn’t lead to gas chambers. Pick Stroessner or Mugabe or Ortega or Ceaucescu or Pinochet if you want to really dig.

  51. 57

    Donnageddon spews:

    Just who was it that popularized the term “Feminazi”?? Hmmm. I seem to remember a lot of people copying that slogan. Like they were mindless mimics, or Dittoheads, or something.

    Surely the right would never engage on a high profile radio show this type of hate speech against people?

    Would they?

  52. 58

    righton spews:

    donna…

    good one. good left jab.

    Only comeback is i don’t think calling Gloria Steinham or Boxer a feminazi means we think they are hunting down Jews and Gypsies and the infirm. I do think that’s the hint the left drops when the use the word Nazi.

  53. 59

    thehim spews:

    I didn’t say she was joking; i was saying her words had a different purpose; not a warning to liberals that they are at risk amongst us, rather if they really think the Taliban is kind and our friend, go over there and bear the consequences

    As I said, it’s not so much how it’s meant as how it’s interpreted. Coulter is good at always allowing for some vagueness in what she says. She’s a lot more careful in her writing than when she’s on TV though (I’m guessing an editor plays a big part in that).

    Mein Kampf; talk about a red herring. None of us have read it, so we take your word that Coulter’s writing is like Mein Kampf. Its the same method of tarring her w/ the Nazi thing.

    It’s not like there are no copies of the book left. I encourage you to read it. It’s really a very random and strangely written book, and it was definitely different than what I thought it would be. For a lot of it, he actually reveals his own deviousness within his thinking. He pretty much tells the reader that he’s using propaganda, but still making all these points about how Jews and pacifists are a great threat to Germany. There are large parts of the book that talk about very mundane and almost obvious things, such as the corruptible power of government and how important it is to be physically fit and good in science (one of the sections of the book that actually does make him seem anti-Christian, which he sort of was in that he was more about his race than his religion). I’ve actually had people tell me as well that Coulter’s writing is actually more similar to Stalin, and I certainly believe that’s possible, but I’ve never read anything by Stalin.

    Make the argument w/out the Nazi baggage.. Go show how her words lead to Stalinism, or some autocratic regime, or to a stiffling of dissent, etc. The nazi thing is the lazy way out. There’s been a lot of middle bad dudes out there that didn’t lead to gas chambers. Pick Stroessner or Mugabe or Ortega or Ceaucescu or Pinochet if you want to really dig.

    The reason I think the Nazi argument carries some additional weight (other than the fact that more people are knowledgeable of the history) is because of the parallels between a white country, that was arguably the most powerful in the world and had just made some military follies, deciding that a religious and ethnic minority was a threat. Mugabe is obviously an extremist of the same ilk, but not many people know who he is, and the subservient role that the native Africans played in the old Rhodesia makes it a much different dynamic. It’s easy to paint Coulter with a more third-world mindset, but the effect that a third-world mindset can have on a first-world society is just something slightly different, and more dangerous.

  54. 60

    U2 spews:

    Goldy @ 30, Damnaged @ 31, you guys are both forgetting that our trolls went to the ‘Evelyn Woods Neo-speed reading’ class. They are so fast it is incredible. Trick is, they just read the headlines and anything in bold, then make up their distorted minds in how to attack

  55. 61

    righton spews:

    The parallel is false. Germany didn’t just concoct the idea of untermenschen on the fly. That had been percolating, plus you have all the Weimar failure, basic german and prussian obedience thing going. I think all you have to go on is a pushy broad speaking strongly.

    Father Coughlin was closer, we didn’t bite then. We had millions of german americans fight in the war, no big movement back home (ever).

    Maybe you’re talking about the Bible banning going on in schools these days? Hitler was anti-Christian. Is the ACLU basically Nazi?

  56. 62

    thehim spews:

    The parallel is false. Germany didn’t just concoct the idea of untermenschen on the fly. That had been percolating, plus you have all the Weimar failure, basic german and prussian obedience thing going. I think all you have to go on is a pushy broad speaking strongly.

    I’m not quite sure of the point you’re making here, but it’s not hard at all equating the Weimar failure to the disaster in Iraq, but maybe a little harder to paint the Bavaria-Prussian divide as a being similar to the red state-blue state divide. Ann Coulter may be a pushy broad speaking strongly, but that’s not the problem. The problem is that her books fly off the shelf and that she is taken very seriously, even when perhaps she is not entirely serious.

    Maybe you’re talking about the Bible banning going on in schools these days? Hitler was anti-Christian. Is the ACLU basically Nazi?

    Going on these days? Bibles have been banned from schools for a very long time. Our government can not endorse a particular religion through public schools. That was the intention of our founding fathers. To say that the ACLU is anti-Christian is essentially saying that the people who wrote our Constitution were anti-Christian. I’m a Jew, and if I send my kids to a public school and they have a teacher who promotes the Bible to them, I will not be happy. That does not make me anti-Christian. It just means that I prefer to expose my children to religion on my own terms.

  57. 63

    Drivel spews:

    pbj @ 46 COLMES (2/7/02): “We’re back on Hannity & Colmes. Ann Coulter, you said this phrase when contemplating college liberals, you “regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise they’ll turn out to be outright traitors.” You hate liberals. You despise liberals.
    COULTER: That was a huge hit with the audience, by the way.
    COLMES: That is unbelievable. We should execute them to make liberals scared.
    COULTER: Right.
    COLMES: Explain that to me.
    COULTER: Right. Because, I mean, you can see you’re—we were talking about college leftists, by the way, who are almost as bad as liberals…”

    for starter….don’t choke on it….but you can spin it and say she was ‘just satirical’, the worn out neocon cop out

  58. 64

    righton spews:

    thehim at 62

    You need to bone up on the german thing. There is a huge gulf between Iraq and Germany 1932. Take our country at the same time, pour onto it the basic German hatred of oursiders, their absolute poverty for a dozen years, the monies they were being levied by the allies from WW1. ZERO in common w/ the conditions of the country or the populace in German pre Nazis vs today (or anyday in the US). (have to drop favorite quote by Churchill, “The hun is either under your foot or at your throat”. I assume of course you actually know the horrors of the Nazis? I’ve been to the death camps etc, met survivors, met German officers, met Allied officers who witnessed. Ugly stuff

    Re my Bible quote, i was referencing some occassional (every month or so) story about some school who bans people from religious expression at school (that is, not leading a prayer, rather taking a Bible to the playground).

    As a ps, as a Jew , if you’re a religious one, ignoring your politics, you wouldn’ be offended by readings from the Torah would you?

  59. 66

    Donnageddon spews:

    I personally disavow the allegation of the present administration as Nazi’s. They are merely Fascists. Just as dangerous, but without the snappy brown shirts. Although time may prove me wrong, Gitmo and the prison’s of Iraq and Afghanistan are a dangerous precedent.

    Mussolini on Fascism

    “Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism — born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision — the alternative of life or death….

    Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage….

    …Fascism denies, in democracy, the absur[d] conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of “happiness” and indefinite progress….

    The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone…

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall.....scism.html

    Henray A. Wallace on Fascism in 1944

    “His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power.”

    Actually all of Wallace’s points on Fascism are very eerie today…

    http://newdeal.feri.org/wallace/haw23.htm

  60. 67

    pbj spews:

    Liberals are such hypocrits and drama queens. They do exactly what they accuse everyone else of doing. Who was the side attacking conservative speakers at college campuses – liberals. Who do we see destroying property and rioting during the WTO – liberals. Who do we see openly advocating killing the president – liberals. Yeah it IS a lot like Germany in the 1930’s except it is the liberals that are rioting like krystal nacht through the streets of Seattle during WTO. Liberals lack any basis in facts for their looney positions, so they must resort to violence.

  61. 68

    Donnageddon spews:

    pbj @ 67

    “Liberals lack any basis in facts for their looney positions, so they must resort to violence.”

    I think the present disaster in Iraq makes you statement I ironic at best, disengenious at worst.

  62. 70

    Drivel spews:

    Donnageddon, what do you expect from the ‘no brains – no problem’ Republican party sheep such as pbj?

  63. 71

    Mr. X spews:

    Just want to throw some props to thehim for the quality of your posts here – you’re a lot more patient with some of the rightwing schmucks who post here than I am. It’s a pity their worldview is impervious to facts.

  64. 72

    thehim spews:

    You need to bone up on the german thing. There is a huge gulf between Iraq and Germany 1932. Take our country at the same time, pour onto it the basic German hatred of oursiders, their absolute poverty for a dozen years, the monies they were being levied by the allies from WW1. ZERO in common w/ the conditions of the country or the populace in German pre Nazis vs today (or anyday in the US). (have to drop favorite quote by Churchill, “The hun is either under your foot or at your throat”. I assume of course you actually know the horrors of the Nazis? I’ve been to the death camps etc, met survivors, met German officers, met Allied officers who witnessed. Ugly stuff

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe America today is that similar to Germany in 1932. However, I do believe that America today is somewhat similar to Germany during World War I. They were the true military superpower in Europe and their overconfidence got them stuck in a war that turned out to be much harder than they ever imagined. How things play out in Iraq, and what kind of leadership we have in the United States over the next 15 years will determine whether or not we become what Germany became in the 30s. No one really knows, but seeing viewpoints like Coulter’s take hold the way they do should give pause. Fascism will never take the same form twice, of course, but that doesn’t mean that there are strong similarities that should be red flags for any society.

  65. 73

    thehim spews:

    Just want to throw some props to thehim for the quality of your posts here – you’re a lot more patient with some of the rightwing schmucks who post here than I am. It’s a pity their worldview is impervious to facts.

    Thanks Mr. X. I actually do believe that it’s worth it to get through to the small number who are open-minded. I sense that Goldy thinks I’m nuts, and he may be right, but I believe that the most important political battle going on right now is not liberals vs. conservatives. It’s moderate Republicans vs. the crazies. The moderates have to save that party, or it could be a long time before we’re all able to right the ship.

  66. 75

    thehim spews:

    Re my Bible quote, i was referencing some occassional (every month or so) story about some school who bans people from religious expression at school (that is, not leading a prayer, rather taking a Bible to the playground).

    I’m sure that there are instances of the above that occur, and sometimes I’ll admit that the lengths we go to keep religion out of schools occasionally crosses lines. I don’t have a problem with students talking to other students about their religion, but I do have a problem with a teacher doing so. The teacher is in a position of authority that makes it different. That’s not to say that there won’t be conflicts with students proselytizing that need to be dealt with. If a child is going around pushing their religion on other kids, it should be viewed in the same way as any other type of intimidation. But at the school administrative level, there should be no effort going on at all to promote any one religion.

    The recent case in Odessa, TX is one that is interesting because it could really go either way. It’s possible to teach about the Bible without promoting it, but I’d be very skeptical that they’d do that. When I was in high school, we had a course that taught about most of the world’s religions, from a historical perspective. It was probably the most interesting class I had in high school. That’s what the folks in Odessa should be doing.

    As a ps, as a Jew , if you’re a religious one, ignoring your politics, you wouldn’ be offended by readings from the Torah would you?

    I’m not a religious Jew, and I’m not offended by any religion at all. This has to do with children, and the ground rules that we should lay so that families are free to be in as much control as is reasonably possible over the child’s exposure to the religion of their choice. I think it’s very important for children to grow up knowing that America is a country where all religions are equal under the law.

  67. 76

    pbj spews:

    Drivel,

    Anne Coulter has a wit that escapes you, I know. You probably prefer the likes of Ward Churchill. Or how about the various liberals calling for assasination of President Bush? You liberals are trying to incite one of the more unstable amongst you to do just that.

    So while you drama queens are finding it necessary to terrorise a 150lb skinny blonde chick with a wit that you cannot comprehend, your nut jobs are actively advocating assasination.

  68. 77

    pbj spews:

    I still have not seen any link in which Anne Coulter advocates killing liberals. The one about John Walker, yeah she advocates the death penalty for him. Are you liberals claiming him as one of your own?

    And the liberal “err Amerika” where they hold an assasination on the radio. You liberals are the ones with the hate.

    “To send men to the firing squad, Judicial proof is unnecessary. This is a revolution and a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.”
    Ernesto “Che” Guevara”

  69. 78

    righton spews:

    Donnageddon.

    Loved you quoting Wallace. He was a communist sympathizer, if not Communist.

  70. 80

    Donnageddon spews:

    righton @ “Loved you quoting Wallace. He was a communist sympathizer, if not Communist.”

    Really? That must come as a surprise to the vaste majority of the United States citizens that elected him Vice President.

    I had to read your post a few times to make sure I read you correctly. You really should do a little research before you throw that kind of crap around. That is the most idiotic thing I have ever seen another homosapien write.

  71. 81

    pbj spews:

    More examples of left wing hate:

    The St. Petersburg, Fla., Democratic Club took out an ad calling for the death of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. “Then there’s Rumsfeld who said of Iraq, `We have our good days and our bad days,’ ” the ad read. “We should put this S.O.B. up against a wall and say, `This is one of our bad days,’ and pull the trigger.” Fantasies of murder likewise animated British pundit Charlie Brooker, who ended his Oct. 24 column in the Guardian with a plea for Bush’s death: “John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr. — where are you now that we need you?” Brooker later assured readers that he “deplores violence of any kind” and had meant his call for an assassin only as “an ironic joke.”

    But the “joke” of left-wing hate speech stopped being funny a long time ago.

  72. 82

    Donnageddon spews:

    Ann Coulter on tolerence and her dislike of hate speech:

    “The January 10 edition of the New York Observer printed a January 3 interview with right-wing pundit Ann Coulter, in which she stated that she was “fed up with hearing about … civilian casualties” in Iraq; that “it would be fun to nuke” North Korea; that all feminists are “weak and pathetic;” that former President Bill Clinton “was a very good rapist.” Coulter’s personal website provided a link to the interview.”

  73. 84

    righton spews:

    Donnageddon- seattle public school grad i guess

    “During and after his term as Vice President, Wallace often voiced his admiration for the Soviet Union and their policies of Central Planning for the welfare of the working classes. This made a lot of people in the Democratic Party very nervous, especially as concerns over Roosevelt’s health grew more ominous. Roosevelt had decided to run for a 4th term in 1944, and few people in the Party wanted to deal with the prospect of Wallace becoming President if Roosevelt died in office.

    Officials convinced Roosevelt to dump Wallace on his re-election campaign, and replace him with Missouri Senator Harry S. Truman. With Roosevelt’s death shortly after the election, Wallace missed being President by only a few months”

    and above some conservative site; this link to some left wing site that acknowledges rumors of his comminess http://encyclopedia.laborlawta.....A._Wallace

  74. 85

    righton spews:

    When do we return to you lefties showing me how Ann Coulter is Joseph Goebbels in drag?

  75. 86

    pbj spews:

    The lefties are afraid of a 150lb blond chick. No wonder no one will ever trust them to defend America against terrorists.

  76. 87

    Donnageddon spews:

    righton – graduate of right wing radio education I geuss

    I don’t know which wacko right-wing web site you got the above quite, but it is clear you did not read the link you did post

    Ayone interested in seeing righton’s lies please read th link he posted.

    http://encyclopedia.laborlawta.....A._Wallace

    Let’s look at how they acknowledge “rumours of his comminess”

    “Wallace’s perceived communist beliefs”

    “It was later alleged

    If you care for a more enlightened view on V.P. Wallace, consult
    http://www.winrock.org/wallace.....e/bio.html

    It demonstrates the bald faced lies of Mr. righton, and the hatemongers who taught him this clap trap.

    Mr. McCarthy, at long last have you no sense of dignity.

  77. 89

    Donnageddon spews:

    pbj @ 86 “The lefties are afraid of a 150lb blond chick. No wonder no one will ever trust them to defend America against terrorists.”

    Nope it is the fact that so many 300lb neo-cons follow and believe the hate she spouts.

  78. 90

    pbj spews:

    Here is an Anne Coulter quote for you:

    “Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?”

  79. 91

    pbj spews:

    Donna@87,

    I was waiting for you to get to the McCarthy reference. Is that liberal knee jerk talking point #99?

    Why don’t we investigate Mr McCarthy’s allegations, shall we? It turns out he was right.

    In 1995, the U.S. National Security Agency broke a half century of silence by releasing translations of Soviet cables decrypted back in the 1940s by the Venona Project. Venona was a top-secret U.S. effort to gather and decrypt messages sent in the 1940s by agents of what is now called the KGB and the GRU, the Soviet military intelligence agency. The cables revealed the identities of numerous Americans who were spies for the Soviet Union, including those chronicled in NOVA’s “Secrets, Lies, and Atomic Spies.”

    The four Venona cables presented here provide striking evidence of the covert activities of several atomic-era spies, including Klaus Fuchs, Julius Rosenberg, and Theodore Alvin Hall.

    You can read more here:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/v.....cepts.html

  80. 92

    Donnageddon spews:

    You see, pbj you said “Please provide me one damn link to ANYTHING Ann Coulter said that wasn’t satirical in which she called for executions of liberals???”

    We provided examples and more of her angry murderous hate speech

    The righton said “And Franken and McAulifee also threatened conservatives (no facts behind this, but a baseless assertion like #41..urban legend she called for death to the libs)”

    The difference is we provide ample evidence, and you attempt to shrug it off.

    No, you LIED. We did not. That is the difference between liberals and neo-cons.

  81. 93

    righton spews:

    ah Donnageddon, donna getta the diploma…

    History is full of 2 sides to the person. In a post proclaiming right wingers to be Nazis and Fascists, I was having fun w/ invective, not full exaggeration.

    Plenty of good historians suspect Wallace’s political sympathies. I wouldn’t claim him as a Soviet spy, but certainly sympathetic to government ownership of the means of production (what a communist basically is).

    While for spice I’ll sometimes allege McDermott or Kennedy to be communists, with Wallace I’m actually on target…

    Maybe while you’re looking up stuff, you might ponder whats in the FBI files on him…

  82. 94

    Donnageddon spews:

    pbj @ 91 “Klaus Fuchs, Julius Rosenberg, and Theodore Alvin Hall.” And so all the blacklisting of people suspected of being communist party members who were not is now justified?

    Are you insane?

  83. 95

    Drivel spews:

    pbj @ 76 as I imagined “for starter….don’t choke on it….but you can spin it and say she was ‘just satirical’, the worn out neocon cop out ” you never can base your arguments on any facts…just another sheep in your ‘fact based world’ LMAO

  84. 96

    Donnageddon spews:

    righton at 93 Oh my you have me befuddled by your teasing and half admitions of your lying!

    If you have something to say, say it. Then I will show you where Rush, Hannity and O’liely fed you garbage.

    But that will be for tomorrow, I grow weary of spanking the butts of mindless neo-cons.

  85. 97

    Drivel spews:

    pbj @ 77 LOL, “To send men to the firing squad, Judicial proof is unnecessary. This is a revolution and a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.”
    Ernesto “Che” Guevara” I thought that was right from GWB’s mouth

  86. 98

    thehim spews:

    PBJ,

    I can’t believe I actually have to say this to an adult, but I’m going to. There are people on the left who spew hate, and there are people on the right who spew hate. If you actually believe somehow that the political scene in the United States is such that all the hateful people are on one side, your head is firmly planted well inside your ass.

    I’m on the left today in this country’s national debate because the right side of the debate has run headlong into extremism with a zeal that is unmatched on the left. For every Democrat zealot threatening the life of Donald Rumsfeld, there are 5 Republicans out there who threaten the life of someone on the left. Do have any idea how many death threats are thrown around?

  87. 99

    pbj spews:

    @92,

    Donna,

    Yeah, like Gregoire “told the truth” when she said there would be no gas tax.

    I think your obsession with Anne suggests mysogyny. What? Did you get turned down by all the good looking gals for the high school prom? Or perhaps when you finally got the courage to ask that cute secretary for a date and she dumped on you.

  88. 100

    Drivel spews:

    righton @ 93 It is more adventurous to ponder what is in the FBI files on your GWB’s judicial nominee Saad……….I imagine …………………………….

  89. 101

    pbj spews:

    Thehim@98,

    “If you actually believe somehow that the political scene in the United States is such that all the hateful people are on one side, your head is firmly planted well inside your ass.”

    No, it is you liberals that think so.

    Never ever in the history of this nation have I ever heard on any radio station the simulated assasination of a president. EVER. It used to be that once upon a time when one party lost an election, they respected the office of the president. But now the left wing has gone totally overboard and OPENLY advocates killing an American president. These are the same people who will turn around and complain about the lack of civility in politics.

    Are their right wing crazies, oh sure there are. But I have read in mainstream media calls for the assasination of a president.

    No sir. There are about 10 left wing crazies for every 3 right wing crazies. The right wing crazies are so obvious that not too many people need to pay attention. The problem is that the left wing crazies are embedded in a media that considers itself “mainstream”.

  90. 103

    thehim spews:

    I wouldn’t claim him as a Soviet spy, but certainly sympathetic to government ownership of the means of production (what a communist basically is).

    Communism, as a extreme left economic philosophy, is an inefficient system that has been clearly proven not to work. However, the economics alone are not rooted in any desire to take away liberty. It was, in a naive way, believed to be a way to achieve a society with complete liberty.

    Where Communism ceased being just an attempt at providing economic liberty and crossed lines to be un-American was when it also involved restricting religious freedom. Many Americans feel that economic freedom is equivalent to spiritual freedom, but it’s not. Believing in an inefficient economic system was not an affront to freedom unless it was accompanied with the enforced atheism aspect.

    For someone in the 1940s to believe that communism could work for a society was hardly an endorsement of anything other than economic theory. With hindsight, revisionist historians like Coulter like to paint the picture that since these people were open-minded to the notion that communist economic theory might work that they were the same people who would’ve sided with the Soviet Union 20 years down the road after they ran off towards the extremes of centralized power and proved how communism would self-destruct.

  91. 104

    righton spews:

    thehim and donna merging on me…

    thehim; how’d you drag Coulter into Henry Wallace thread? You guys can’t give it up. And I called Wallace a commie; didn’t say he was a traitorous commie…

  92. 105

    thehim spews:

    But now the left wing has gone totally overboard and OPENLY advocates killing an American president.

    C’mon, you’re not that dumb. You can’t just say something like this and expect a grownup to just believe it. One person advocating the killing of a President is not indicative of the “left wing.”

    But I have read in mainstream media calls for the assasination of a president.

    Mainstream American media?

    No sir. There are about 10 left wing crazies for every 3 right wing crazies. The right wing crazies are so obvious that not too many people need to pay attention. The problem is that the left wing crazies are embedded in a media that considers itself “mainstream”.

    HAHAHAHA! Now that’s funny. So for every 3 people on Little Green Footballs calling for someone to kill Nancy Pelosi, there are 10 left wingers just as crazy working for the mainstream media? Wow, you’ve created one intense fantasy world for yourself there.

  93. 106

    thehim spews:

    thehim; how’d you drag Coulter into Henry Wallace thread? You guys can’t give it up. And I called Wallace a commie; didn’t say he was a traitorous commie…

    I pulled Coulter into the Wallace thread because something that PBJ posted was also written about extensively in Treason, and it is the basis for a lot of the silliness that surrounds the belief that some 40s and 50s era were something they were not. You seem to know where the line is drawn, but the others don’t. Excusing McCarthyism becomes very easy when you exaggerate the threat of simply believing in certain economic theories to be more in line with the full extent of how the Soviet government operated.

  94. 107

    pbj spews:

    The Democrat party has been taken over by the remnants of the 60’s Vietnam Era hate America hippies. Hating America is all they have known. I don’t make this comment as an outsider. I make it as a former Democrat of 40 years. I went with my mother to hear McGovern speak at Gonzaga univeristy in the 70’s. I have marched picket lines in solidarity with the United Farm Workers and Ceazar Chavez in front of Safeway. Hell, I was even outraged about the way the 2000 election turned out. I voted for Gore. How wrong I was.

    But then 911 happened. I watched George Bush and this aethist was damn glad HE wa the president and not Al Gore. I was impressed by his resolve during the crisis. I would still have voted for Democrats at this point. However, I read the letters to the editor in the Seattle papers. The selection was basically that we deserved it. Historic investigators will believe that America had a national day on celebration on 911 if they judge the letter selection in the editorial pages of the Times and PI. I wrote the editors and asked them why, since the majority of Americans were horrifed and angry at 911, they chose only to print letters saying we deserved it. The response was that they were not “newspapers of record” but rather printed what their audience wanted.

    I guess that along with the protest group at the federal building, Democrat Barbara Lee of Berkely voting against Afghanistan and all the Anti-American rhetoric I have heard from the left since 911 convinced me that the Democrats were no longer the party of Scoop Jackson and Warren Magneson (both of whose elecitons I worked on). No longer did politics end at “the waters edge”.

    No some of you will acuse me of being a Republican shill and lying about this. Come see the Tom Foley button I still have pinned in my car.

    The Democrat party needs to free itself from the radical 60’s hippies who have known nothing but contempt for their country. It is driving people away from your party.

  95. 109

    pbj spews:

    Donna@106,

    “Excusing McCarthyism becomes very easy when you exaggerate the threat of simply believing in certain economic theories to be more in line with the full extent of how the Soviet government operated.”

    The threat was not exagerated. Go read about project Venona. Was McCarthy a bull in a china shop? Yes. But there were spies riddling our government. You liberals always underestimate our enemies. FDR did it with the Soviets, Carter did it with the Soviets and Clinton with the terrorists. That is why America doesn’t trust you to run national security. You don’t take it seriously. The result is that our enemies don’t take America seriously when post 60’s liberals are in power. The result is an emboldened enemy that then requires 10 times more resources to deal with. But apparently the only proof liberals will accept wil be the smoldering remains of our cities when nuclear armed terrorist attack. Even then liberals will try to deny reality.

    All the best health care, education and pie in the sky liberal programs do me little good if I am dead. In the end, on national security, liberals are not credible.

  96. 111

    righton spews:

    Yeah, McGovern looks pretty comforting compared to Boxer and McDermott. Really. He wasn’t bad; decorated bomber pilot and all.

    I’m anti iraq war and all, but man, you guys got zip to offer us. Howard Dean, Kerry? Hillary? Boxer, Patty Murray? yipes

    now where’s donna at w/ the commies and nazis mixmatch.

  97. 112

    pbj spews:

    thehim@110,

    From your link:
    “They are the spoiled twenty-something children of American middle- and upper-class privilege who have much more progressive and uninhibited morals than their parent’s generation,…”

    Yes, I was never the spoiled child of upper-class privilege. Hell, I had to work up to advance to the middle class. Perhaps the idea that one should earn what they have rather than expect it as a privilege is a world that stopped existing. Perhaps that is part of the problem.

  98. 113

    Drivel spews:

    pbj @ 101 you said “Are their right wing crazies, oh sure there are. But I have read in mainstream media calls for the assasination of a president.” show me the main stream medias links! I would like to read the wording! Funny, but I truly doubt if you can link to anything……same ole same ole

  99. 114

    Dick Hertz spews:

    One thing I get a kick out of is how the anti-gays forget (or ignore) that Saint Edgar Hoover, the founder of the FBI, was gay as a three-dollar bill, and a transvestite to boot!

  100. 115

    pbj spews:

    Drivel,

    The UK Guardian took down the story after they got caught. But you can read an archived version of it here:

    http://www.dummocrats.com/archives/000523.php

    And unless you think it was made up by a right wing conspiracy to discredit the proletariat, you can read about it from other sources:

    Canda Free Press discusses it here:

    http://www.canadafreepress.com.....102504.htm

    The UK Telegraph discusses it here:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opi.....do2602.xml

    The BBC discusses it here:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor.....952091.stm

    Are those sources “reliable” enough for you?

    And here is a source listing more left wing hate speech:

    http://www.boston.com/news/glo.....te_speech/

  101. 116

    U2 spews:

    pssssst. Dick Hertz…. don’t tell them that. you will be labeled a communist and a liar. please don’t break their world in an eggshell, its got too many cracks already, many more facts and it will be destroyed

  102. 117

    Dick Hertz spews:

    pssssst. Dick Hertz…. don’t tell them that. you will be labeled a communist and a liar.

    U2, c’mon, don’t be so mean. We live in a free country! We’re free to express our ideas without fear of reprisal. It’s not like Russia where they’d put people on blacklists or ship them off to prison camps in far-flung locales!

  103. 118

    U2 spews:

    you’re right Dick H., how could anyone even consider shipping ‘prisoners’ to places like Egypt or Uzbekistan