Failure is Success

Paul Armentano brings us the scary resume of President Obama’s nominee to run the DEA, Michele Leonhart:

As interim DEA director, Ms. Leonhart orchestrated federal raids on individuals and facilities who were compliant with the medical marijuana laws of their states — a policy that is in direct conflict with the wishes of the present administration. Further, Ms. Leonhart has inexplicably called the rising death toll of civilians attributable to the U.S./Mexican drug war “a signpost of the success” of current drug prohibition strategies. Finally, she has repeatedly acted to block clinical research into the medical properties of marijuana — actions that would appear to run contrary to this administration’s pledge to allow science, rather than rhetoric and ideology, guide public policy.

You can contact Senators Murray and Cantwell with this online alert.

Comments

  1. 1

    spews:

    Lee

    Is this somehow related to your “Kagen is Meirs” post?

    Is support for legalization a litmus test for this job?

    Just get the facts straight before you complain to the Senators.

    Lee has made the reasonable argument that the Mexican crime gangs are a response to US enforcement of MJ prohibition. Isn’t Ms. Leonhart stating EXACTLY that? Isn’t she saying that US prohibition is creating as market for illegal MJ and stimulating growth of gangs in Mexico?

    Paul Armentano is a SPOX for NORML. His complaint about Ms. Leonhart’s “blocking” research has to do with a convoluted argument worthy og Glen Beck.

    Armentano argues that because Ms. Leonhart’s agency does not fund MJ research, NIDA is therefore preventing the research from being done.

    This is as nonsensical as the righties demonization of MJ itself. Here are the facts:

    NIDA is the only legal supplier of MJ for research. Aside form the whole business of prohibtion, this law makes sense for research since any funded research n MJ should use MJ grwon under controlled conditions.

    There is nothing in NORML’s screed that says anyone funded by any of the usual agencies (NIH) or, for that matter a drug company, has any problem getting MJ from NIDA. Moreover, scientists usually do nto use impure pplants for research, we use well defined chemicals. Getting a grant funded to use MJ would be like getting a grant funded to treat cancer with tree bark instead of taxol.

  2. 2

    spews:

    @1
    Is support for legalization a litmus test for this job?

    That would arguably be unrealistic, but not violating state laws with federal resources certainly should be a litmus test.

    Lee has made the reasonable argument that the Mexican crime gangs are a response to US enforcement of MJ prohibition. Isn’t Ms. Leonhart stating EXACTLY that?

    No. What she’s saying is that the response means that we’re winning. There’s a gigantic difference.

    Paul Armentano is a SPOX for NORML.

    He’s also a significantly more intelligent person than you.

    His complaint about Ms. Leonhart’s “blocking” research has to do with a convoluted argument worthy og Glen Beck.

    No, it’s not. And I dare you to elaborate on that in a way that makes sense.

    Armentano argues that because Ms. Leonhart’s agency does not fund MJ research, NIDA is therefore preventing the research from being done.

    No, not even close. Here’s the explanation:

    In 2007, U.S. DEA Administrative Law Judge Mary Ellen Bittner ruled that NIDA’s monopolization of marijuana research is not “in the public interest,” and ordered the federal government to allow private manufacturers to produce the drug for research purposes. But in January of last year, DEA Deputy Administrator Michele Leonhart set aside Judge Bittner’s ruling – stating that NIDA possesses “adequate” quantities of cannabis to meet the needs of clinical investigators, and that the agency monopoly on the distribution of marijuana for research is compliant with America’s international treaty obligations. (Notably, on January 26, 2010 President Barack Obama selected Leonhart to be the DEA’s full time Director.)

    NIDA is the only legal supplier of MJ for research. Aside form the whole business of prohibtion, this law makes sense for research since any funded research n MJ should use MJ grwon under controlled conditions.

    There is nothing in NORML’s screed that says anyone funded by any of the usual agencies (NIH) or, for that matter a drug company, has any problem getting MJ from NIDA.

    Absolutely incorrect again:

    Under federal law, NIDA (along with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration) must approve all clinical and preclinical research involving marijuana. NIDA strictly controls which investigators are allowed access to the federal government’s lone research supply of pot – which is authorized via a NIDA contract and cultivated and stored at the University of Mississippi.

    In short, no NIDA approval = no marijuana = no scientific studies. And that is, and always has been, the problem.

    But to the folks over at NIDA, there’s no problem at all.

    Speaking to The New York Times in a January 19, 2010 article entitled, “Researchers Find Medical Study of Marijuana Discouraged,” NIDA spokeswoman Shirley Simson said: “As the National Institute on Drug Abuse, our focus is primarily on the negative consequences of marijuana use. We generally do not fund research focused on the potential beneficial medical effects of marijuana.”

    Moreover, scientists usually do nto use impure pplants for research, we use well defined chemicals.

    I guess Gregor Mendel wasn’t a scientist then. LOL!

  3. 3

    Alki Postings spews:

    Yeah, but so?

    I mean this is like being surprised the current military leaders aren’t proposing pillow fights and peace summits, but are instead requesting jet fighters and guns. The DEA exists, whether it should or not, to enforce our current (stupid and ineffective) drug laws. The head of the DEA is NEVER going to be pro-reform. They should, but it ain’t gonna happen politically. Maybe she’ll moderate out once in office, after a little chat with the President. If not, yet another thing I’m disappointed with Obama on…not because he’s a secret Muslim or a socialist, but because he’s not far ENOUGH left, but tacking way to far to the right. Obama was never going to be popular with the Republicans seriously, but his big drop in the polls is from the liberals who aren’t happy with him. They wanted out of Iraq (still there), done with Afghanistan (increasing), end to bullshit Patriot Act provisions (nope), end of DOMA (nope), end of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell (nope), universal health care (not what we really got), real election finance reform (nope), immigration reform (not yet). It’s not that Obama has gone too far and America wants to “go back”, it’s that he hasn’t done ANYTHING yet.

    This is what makes the Tea Party and Republicans SOOO laughably stupid. They pretend in their anti-reality little crazy world that Obama has taking away our rights and turned the country crazy far in some direction they don’t like. The REALITY is that little has changed since the last administration, except I got a small tax cut. The “tone” of our nation might be better, but policy, military and otherwise, very minor changes.

  4. 5

    spews:

    @4
    I didn’t realize that smoking pot once a year makes you a “chronic stoner”. LOL!

    I think Mark is just interested in living in a world where he can have one intelligent thought in a year and be considered a deep thinker.

    Dance, monkey, dance!

  5. 8

    spews:

    @5
    I’m not saying he will have one intelligent thought per year, I’m just saying that if he did, it would be a mentally stimulating year for him.

  6. 10

    Chris Mitchell spews:

    Lee (and by proxy Goldy),
    I’ve had enough of your rants. Of all of the problems in all of the world, your sole mission on this blog is pot. If it were occaisional and you provided me other value, ok. However, this is not the case. Lee, your rants tire me about this. You might have points, you’ve made them…NOW PICK A NEW TOPIC PLEASE. If you don’t, you might loose a loyal reader.

    Chris

  7. 12

    notaboomer spews:

    green jobs:

    “A robust aerospace industry in Washington state affects our businesses, schools, communities and families,” Murray said.

    Gregoire and Murray appeared Monday with Everett-area officials and union members holding signs that read “Doing it right in the USA” and “Best tanker made by American workers.”

  8. 13

    spews:

    @10
    Chris, I’ll “pick a new topic” when the law changes. Goldy writes often about our regressive tax policy. Jon writes often about Wall Street malfeasance. We all focus on areas where we’re being screwed and which we follow closely.

    Of all of the problems in all of the world, your sole mission on this blog is pot.

    Sorry, but between the war in Mexico, the economic impact of prohibition, the environmental devastation caused by having illicit grows on public lands, the overcrowding of our prisons, the erosion of our 4th Amendment rights, and the fact that it’s still far easier for young people to get pot than alcohol, this is an important issue to tackle.

  9. 14

    notaboomer spews:

    bbbbbut boeing’s gone straight & narrow, mr. gates:

    The Pentagon has been trying for seven years to start the process to replace Boeing KC-135 fueling tankers that date from the 1950s. Past attempts have failed repeatedly for reasons ranging from bungling by the Pentagon to the criminal convictions of a Boeing executive and a top Defense Department official.

  10. 15

    Chris Mitchell spews:

    Lee, then tell Goldy you just cost him a reader. Taxes matter, wall street matters. Pot? No…not so much.

  11. 16

    notaboomer spews:

    more pot posts by lee. he is an expert and not just some slackass blog commenter like me.

  12. 17

    notaboomer spews:

    math is hard:

    The 11,000 jobs represent those supported or retained in both the tanker and 767 commercial jetliner programs, said Elizabeth Lund, Boeing 767 general manager. She did not have a breakdown on jobs just from the tanker aspect.

    Gregoire and Murray said the tanker program would affect a total of 50,000 jobs and 800 suppliers nationally. About 70 of those suppliers are in Washington state.

  13. 18

    spews:

    @15
    Well, I just explained to you why pot matters as much as most other topics.

    I don’t think Goldy cares too much when readers who have already decided they know everything stop reading his blog. Not much of an appealing audience to him.

  14. 20

    spews:

    @19
    Thanks. The sad thing is that I only post a small fraction of the drug war news that I find newsworthy. And if I didn’t have a full-time job and a 13 month old son, I’d have more time to expand on other topics. I focus on the drug war because it tends to be neglected relative to the damage it does to our society.

    The thing is, I like Chris, he and I talk at Seattle DL occasionally, and reading that comment was a surprise to me. Hopefully, he figures out that marijuana prohibition is not some irrelevant side issue. It’s a big problem, leading to very serious economic problems and the deaths of thousands of people both in Mexico and the United States.

  15. 21

    notaboomer spews:

    well thanks for clarifying and for your commitment to a serious and underserved issue, lee.

  16. 22

    Broadway Joe spews:

    15:

    Marijuana decriminalization is a pretty fucking important topic to me, because I know for a fact that MJ helps ease the pain that my wife deals with every day as a result of the suite of autoimmune disorders she has. And as soon as we can afford to do so, she’s going to get her ‘Green Card’ (or whatever they call it here) and become a medical MJ patient. I can’t really speak for Lee, but here’s a piece of personal advice for you – if his posting on the utter sham that is the ‘War on Drugs’ bothers you that much, don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

  17. 24

    ArtFart spews:

    Leonhart’s reported declaration of civilian casualties in connection with the Mexican drug-gang mess is quite distressing. Nobody who thinks the loss of “innocents” is a good thing should be running an organization whose work involves the potential use of deadly force.

  18. 25

    spews:

    2. Lee spews:

    legalization as a litmus test for this job ..
    That would arguably be unrealistic, but not violating state laws with federal resources certainly should be a litmus test.

    WHAT!!! I thought I remembered a civil war fought over that issue? And then wasn’t this the issue the bag suckers climed they could get Obama on for the health care reform. Tiy joining forces with them nuts now?

    No. What she’s saying is that the response means that we’re winning. There’s a gigantic difference.

    So YOU say! Why don’t you try posting someplace where she says we are winning and that the crime wave in MX is tolerable..

    Paul Armentano is a significantly more intelligent person than you.

    And you know this how??? My pookah tells me that Armento’s pookah can not stand the man, “Paul is as stupid as a Republican” according to my Pookah!

    His complaint about Ms. Leonhart’s “blocking” research has to do with a convoluted argument worthy of Glen Beck.

    No, it’s not. And I dare you to elaborate on that in a way that makes sense.

    Dare as in daring on a schyool play field?

    I think he Armentano sucking at MJ tea bags too when he argues that because Ms. Leonhart’s agency controls the distribution of research grade MJ, NIDA is preventing the research from being done.

    As for the statement from NIDA that, ” NIDA spokeswoman Shirley Simson said: “(NIDA) generally do not fund research focused on the potential beneficial medical effects of marijuana.”

    What is wrong with that? The agencies charged with this are not NIDA, they are the NCI, NHLBI, FDA, …..

    Moreover, scientists usually do nto use impure pplants for research, we use well defined chemicals.

    I guess Gregor Mendel wasn’t a scientist then. LOL!

    Gregor Mendel’s research had nothing to do with extracts of plants, he bred plants just like Arab Shieks breed horses.

    Lee, damnitall I would LIKE to support you, but you make it hard by acting out like this.

  19. 27

    spews:

    @16 Lee is an expert???

    Well … so is Sarah Palin ans expert on Oil Drilling.

    Teabagging or leftkneejerking are both bad ..

  20. 28

    spews:

    @25
    WHAT!!! I thought I remembered a civil war fought over that issue?

    So you’re comparing a state deciding to allow people to sell and use marijuana to a state allowing slavery? Are you out of your mind?

    And then wasn’t this the issue the bag suckers climed they could get Obama on for the health care reform. Tiy joining forces with them nuts now?

    Obama’s health care plan doesn’t invalidate any state health care laws, especially any that seek to protect the freedom of individuals. It just creates a national framework for achieving universal health care. There are some folks who do equate these two things, but I’m not one of them.

    So YOU say! Why don’t you try posting someplace where she says we are winning and that the crime wave in MX is tolerable..

    She HAS said that, you buffoon! And Armentano linked to it in his original post (and I added the link to my post above). Are you completely retarded?

    And you know this how???

    It’s pretty fucking obvious.

    My pookah tells me that Armento’s pookah can not stand the man, “Paul is as stupid as a Republican” according to my Pookah!

    I rest my case.

    Dare as in daring on a schyool play field?

    Dare as in knowing that I’ll enjoy watching you try and fail.

    I think he Armentano sucking at MJ tea bags too when he argues that because Ms. Leonhart’s agency controls the distribution of research grade MJ, NIDA is preventing the research from being done.

    Well, no, he’s not. In fact, as he points out, a DEA judge agrees with him. It was Obama’s nominee, Leonhart, who stepped in an set that ruling aside.

    As for the statement from NIDA that, ” NIDA spokeswoman Shirley Simson said: “(NIDA) generally do not fund research focused on the potential beneficial medical effects of marijuana.”

    What is wrong with that?

    For starters, without those supplies, it’s extremely difficult (if not impossible) to do research if you’re trying to demonstrate the medical benefits of marijuana, which was Armentano’s point.

    The agencies charged with this are not NIDA, they are the NCI, NHLBI, FDA, …..

    It doesn’t matter. As Armentano pointed out:

    Under federal law, NIDA (along with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration) must approve all clinical and preclinical research involving marijuana. NIDA strictly controls which investigators are allowed access to the federal government’s lone research supply of pot – which is authorized via a NIDA contract and cultivated and stored at the University of Mississippi.

    What part of that don’t you understand? Are you trying to prove that you’re a complete moron?

    Gregor Mendel’s research had nothing to do with extracts of plants, he bred plants just like Arab Shieks breed horses.

    As do many people who grow marijuana – particularly for medical purposes (which I’ve explained to you numerous times). Do you have any interest in learning about this topic from a scientific standpoint, or are you just content with pretending that your preconceived (and false) notions about marijuana are true simply because you can call yourself a “scientist”?

    Lee, damnitall I would LIKE to support you, but you make it hard by acting out like this.

    I don’t give a fuck whether you support me. You’re a complete fraud. What matters to me is that by coming in here and using your credentials as a scientist to throw complete bullshit around, you lend credibility to the drug warrior propagandists who keep this war going. You’re no different than the people in the scientific community who support intelligent design or the people in the scientific community who claim that global warming is a natural phenomenon.

    Again, I’ve made this challenge before and I’ll make it again. Find one scientist (just one!) who agrees with you on this. For all of the bullshit you’ve thrown around in the past, you’ve never been able to find a single scientist who agrees with you. Do you know what that makes you?

    A fraud.

  21. 29

    spews:

    @28
    Again, I’ve made this challenge before and I’ll make it again. Find one scientist (just one!) who agrees with you on this. For all of the bullshit you’ve thrown around in the past, you’ve never been able to find a single scientist who agrees with you. Do you know what that makes you?

    A fraud.

    Cue the sock puppet in 3…2…1…

  22. 31

    spews:

    Lee .. try thinking before you write?

    WHAT!!! I thought I remembered a civil war fought over that issue?

    So you’re comparing a state deciding to allow people to sell and use marijuana to a state allowing slavery?

    Nope. If you were literate you would know that Lincoln did not oppose slavery, he opposed disuinion. The war established the principle of primacy of the Fed govt over the states in re slavery but the impact also made the US, for the first time, a single, federal entity.

    So YOU say! Why don’t you try posting someplace where she says we are winning and that the crime wave in MX is tolerable..

    She HAS said that, you buffoon! And Armentano linked to it in his original post (and I added the link to my post above). Are you completely retarded?

    Sighhh. No, but I am fat. Does that help you?

    There is no way from your puerile post to tell what she intended. can you spell context?

    And you know this how???

    It’s pretty fucking obvious.

    Worthy of Glenn Beck.

    As for the statement from NIDA that, ” NIDA spokeswoman Shirley Simson said: “(NIDA) generally do not fund research focused on the potential beneficial medical effects of marijuana.”

    What is wrong with that?

    For starters, without those supplies, it’s extremely difficult (if not impossible) to do research if you’re trying to demonstrate the medical benefits of marijuana, which was Armentano’s point.

    So? Is there evidence that the demand from the NCI, NHLBI, FDA, …is NOT being met by NIDA?

    It doesn’t matter. As Armentano pointed out:

    What part of that don’t you understand? Are you trying to prove that you’re a complete moron?

    Gregor Mendel’s research had nothing to do with extracts of plants, he bred plants just like Arab Shieks breed horses.

    As do many people who grow marijuana – particularly for medical purposes

    WTF. Mendel used plants to discover genes. he never made mystery extracts t see if his peas could cure cancer. Your arguments come a hell of a lot closer ot John Bastyr than to Gregor.

    You’re no different than the people in the scientific community who support intelligent design or the people in the scientific community who claim that global warming is a natural phenomenon.

    On the first issue, to the best of my knowledge there are NO scientists who support ID. It is not a scientific idea. On the second issue, I hate to tell yo this but there are very good scientists who disagree with the extent of man made contribution to climate change. That is what is cool about real science, we argue based on data.

    Again, I’ve made this challenge before and I’ll make it again. Find one scientist (just one!) who agrees with you on this. For all of the bullshit you’ve thrown around in the past, you’ve never been able to find a single scientist who agrees with you. Do you know what that makes you?

    A fraud.

    Gosh man, you really have fallen off the deep end. Exactly what issue do you feel I have been fraudulent about?

  23. 32

    Queen Christine "now is not the time to raise taxes" spews:

    lmfao LEE.

    progressives like you HATE state’s rights…accept when it comes to legalizing drugs, gay marriage, ect….

    so I guess you support state’s rights ONLY when it is convenient for you.

    how typically…..progressive!

  24. 33

    spews:

    @31
    Nope. If you were literate you would know that Lincoln did not oppose slavery, he opposed disuinion. The war established the principle of primacy of the Fed govt over the states in re slavery but the impact also made the US, for the first time, a single, federal entity.

    That’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. Basically, you’re making an argument that states should have no rights to do anything at all on their own, even to protect their own citizen’s from federal government overreach. You’re being just as overly simple as Ron Paul fanatics.

    Sighhh. No, but I am fat. Does that help you?

    There is no way from your puerile post to tell what she intended. can you spell context?

    The link is still right there. Click on it and read it, dumbshit.

    So? Is there evidence that the demand from the NCI, NHLBI, FDA, …is NOT being met by NIDA?

    Yes!! If any of those groups wanted to study the medical benefits of marijuana, they are denied supplies of marijuana. That’s the whole fucking point!

    WTF. Mendel used plants to discover genes. he never made mystery extracts t see if his peas could cure cancer. Your arguments come a hell of a lot closer ot John Bastyr than to Gregor.

    You’re not even in the ballpark of understanding this. You were talking about using plants for scientific research. You said that Mendel is different because he was breeding the plants in the same way that horse breeders do, but that’s not a difference. Marijuana growers do the same thing. What they do with the plant is irrelevant.

    On the first issue, to the best of my knowledge there are NO scientists who support ID.

    Yes, there are. I think those people are nuts, but they have as much of a right to call themselves scientists as you do.

    On the second issue, I hate to tell yo this but there are very good scientists who disagree with the extent of man made contribution to climate change. That is what is cool about real science, we argue based on data.

    They argue about the extent, but not the existence.

    Gosh man, you really have fallen off the deep end. Exactly what issue do you feel I have been fraudulent about?

    This:

    Lee has made the reasonable argument that the Mexican crime gangs are a response to US enforcement of MJ prohibition. Isn’t Ms. Leonhart stating EXACTLY that? Isn’t she saying that US prohibition is creating as market for illegal MJ and stimulating growth of gangs in Mexico?

    Paul Armentano is a SPOX for NORML. His complaint about Ms. Leonhart’s “blocking” research has to do with a convoluted argument worthy og Glen Beck.

    Armentano argues that because Ms. Leonhart’s agency does not fund MJ research, NIDA is therefore preventing the research from being done.

    This is as nonsensical as the righties demonization of MJ itself. Here are the facts:

    NIDA is the only legal supplier of MJ for research. Aside form the whole business of prohibtion, this law makes sense for research since any funded research n MJ should use MJ grwon under controlled conditions.

    There is nothing in NORML’s screed that says anyone funded by any of the usual agencies (NIH) or, for that matter a drug company, has any problem getting MJ from NIDA. Moreover, scientists usually do nto use impure pplants for research, we use well defined chemicals. Getting a grant funded to use MJ would be like getting a grant funded to treat cancer with tree bark instead of taxol.

    If you’re not a fraud, find one scientist (just one!) who thinks that anything you’ve written here makes sense. Just one!

  25. 34

    spews:

    SJ, I deleted the end of your last comment because it’s irrelevant to this discussion. If you try to change the topic to a different argument in order to deflect from the fact that you’re making an ass of yourself, your comments will be deleted.

  26. 35

    Queen Christine "now is not the time to raise taxes" spews:

    That’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. Basically, you’re making an argument that states have no rights to do anything at all on their own, even to protect their own citizen’s from federal government overreach

    WOW Lee…you sound like a Libertarian or…even worse…..A TEABAGGER!

    state’s rights indeed!

  27. 36

    spews:

    @35
    I am a libertarian, dummy. I just have a more nuanced worldview than most of the Ron Paul folks.

    And teabaggers are not motivated by state’s rights at all. They’re motivated by racism. If they were motivated by state’s rights, they’d care about marijuana prohibition. But they don’t. They’re a movement that opposes multiculturalism because they’re convinced that having large numbers of minorities in a society is a burden and that having a government that provides services to a diverse population is a drain to everyone else.

    That’s not a belief in state’s rights, that’s a belief in ethnic superiority.

  28. 37

    Queen Christine "now is not the time to raise taxes" spews:

    you mean large number of illegal aliens. There is a big difference between the two.

    and yes, a nanny state govt is a drain…ON EVERYONE.

    A libertarian who wants a nanny state govt…you seem a bit confused? I wonder why…..

  29. 38

    spews:

    @37
    A nanny state government is a drain on everyone. A government that establishes effective public institutions and cost-effective welfare programs is not. There’s a difference, but I’ve noticed that people who run around using the phrase “Queen Christine” to describe our Governor usually don’t have the intellectual heft to comprehend it.

    And no, teabaggers are not just concerned with illegal aliens. The libertarian CATO institute correctly points out that providing amnesty to illegal immigrants is by far the smartest policy. How many teabaggers would agree with that assessment? The answer is hardly any, because to them, the burden of having these people in our society exists regardless of their legal status.

  30. 39

    Queen Christine "now is not the time to raise taxes" spews:

    @38….awww, insult attempt fail…yet again.

    Just because CATO says something, does not make it the right policy. CATO has opinions on lots of subjects, do we just let them make policy? I think not.

    and we already tried amnesty…look where it has gotten us. Do we just keep repeating the process? I have yet to meet anyone who objects to an orderly, legal immigration policy..you know, like the one we have had for OVER 100 YEARS. Mexicans and south Americans need to follow that policy, just like asians, europeans, africans, etc. have to do. Having an easy access to our border does not give anyone the right to sidestep the immigration process.

    like most progressives, you seem to be completely confused by the difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration. It has nothing to do with race – it has to do with following the law firstly(I know, something you dont give a rats ass about considering your pot screeds), and even more importantly, it has to with assuring we dont destroy this nations economy with an underground, illegal labor market.

  31. 40

    spews:

    @39
    Just because CATO says something, does not make it the right policy.

    I completely agree. But I raised that issue to point out to you how organizations that are concerned with states rights can be very divergent from the teabaggers. You seem to have missed that.

    and we already tried amnesty…look where it has gotten us.

    I have absolutely no idea what you mean here. What was the last amnesty and what did it do?

    I have yet to meet anyone who objects to an orderly, legal immigration policy..you know, like the one we have had for OVER 100 YEARS.

    No, we don’t have an orderly, legal immigration policy. We have a wildly restrictive and ineffective immigration policy that doesn’t correspond to the actual demands for labor that exists in certain sectors of our economy.

    Mexicans and south Americans need to follow that policy, just like asians, europeans, africans, etc. have to do.

    People from all over the world come here illegally.

    Having an easy access to our border does not give anyone the right to sidestep the immigration process.

    If the immigration process is inadequate or too limiting for certain jobs, then we shouldn’t get upset when market forces drive illegal immigration. That’s what’s happened.

    like most progressives, you seem to be completely confused by the difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration.

    Like most wingnuts, you believe that there’s a much bigger difference between the two classes of people than the reality. Illegal immigrants are not coming here out of criminal malice. They’re coming here to find work. They are not the problem, nor are they threat to us. In fact, illegal immigrants commit far fewer crimes than legal immigrants or U.S. citizens.

    It has nothing to do with race – it has to do with following the law firstly(I know, something you dont give a rats ass about considering your pot screeds), and even more importantly, it has to with assuring we dont destroy this nations economy with an underground, illegal labor market.

    I’m not even sure you’d need CATO to explain that you can’t really destroy your economy through cheap labor. There are other reasons to oppose cheap labor, but arguing that it hurts a country’s economy is generally not a conservative argument. And the solution to the progressive argument is amnesty.

    Whether you understand it or not, much of what we’re able to buy for rather affordable prices (especially produce) is because of that underground, illegal labor market.

    What’s funniest about this whole thing is that you first thought you had a point by saying that I sound like a libertarian, yet now you’re arguing that the CATO institute is full of crap in order to defend a bunch of beliefs that are rooted solely in racism. You’ve just perfectly illustrated the hollowness of the tea-bagger mentality. Well done!

  32. 41

    spews:

    @39
    like most progressives, you seem to be completely confused by the difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration.

    Further to my final point, I can see you making this argument directly to the folks at CATO, who I’m sure would be tickled pink to be referred to as “progressives”.

    Thanks for playing.

  33. 42

    Queen Christine "now is not the time to raise taxes" spews:

    @41…I did not say CATO, did I…I said you.

    Nice try Lee, but fail. swing and a miss.

  34. 43

    spews:

    @42
    I did not say CATO, did I…I said you.

    What part of this comment didn’t you understand?

    Further to my final point, I can see you making this argument directly to the folks at CATO, who I’m sure would be tickled pink to be referred to as “progressives”.

    It’s one thing to be stupid, it’s another thing to be so stupid that you don’t realize that you’re stupid.

  35. 44

    sj spews:

    Lee

    You seem to be runn9ng for the –less award, witless, gutless, ethics free.

    It is bad enough that you arbitrarily delete full posts but editing others people’s posts s simply wrong.

  36. 45

    sj spews:

    Lee

    Nope. If you were literate you would know that Lincoln did not oppose slavery, he opposed disuinion. The war established the principle of primacy of the Fed govt over the states in re slavery but the impact also made the US, for the first time, a single, federal entity.

    That’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. Basically, you’re making an argument that states should have no rights to do anything at all on their own, even to protect their own citizen’s from federal government overreach. You’re being just as overly simple as Ron Paul fanatics.

    You ought to stuck to what you said, You said the Feds did not have the right to override state law. You were FOS.

    The link is still right there. Click on it and read it, dumbshit.

    Bubbelah .. I did. The link YOU gave does not say enough to tell what she thinks.

  37. 46

    spews:

    @44
    Awwww, poor baby. You come to a blog, spout off a bunch of nonsense that makes no sense, get challenged to find someone with scientific credentials willing to say that what you’re writing isn’t crazy – fail at that – then come back crying because I removed a few lines from a comment where you tried to change the subject.

    I’m sure Gloria Allred is willing to take your case.

    If you don’t want me to treat you like this, stop coming here and being a full-on jackass. Take the time to research the topics that I’m talking about before trying to engage in the conversation. You challenged me without knowing the facts about how NIDA handles MJ research and without knowing the context of Leonhart’s remarks on Mexico. But instead of looking up the facts, you just assumed that the NORML spokesperson must be wrong because he’s a NORML spokesperson and made a complete and total ass of yourself.

    Seriously, man, learn from your mistakes. You do this over and over and over again. Why?

  38. 47

    sj spews:

    HELP …

    Does anytone here understand what Lee is saying?

    I wrote:

    Armentano argues that because Ms. Leonhart’s agency does not fund MJ research, NIDA is therefore preventing the research from being done.

    This is as nonsensical as the righties demonization of MJ itself. Here are the facts:

    NIDA is the only legal supplier of MJ for research. Aside form the whole business of prohibition, this law makes sense for research since any funded research n MJ should use MJ grwon under controlled conditions.

    There is nothing in NORML’s screed that says anyone funded by any of the usual agencies (NIH) or, for that matter a drug company, has any problem getting MJ from NIDA. Moreover, scientists usually do nto use impure pplants for research, we use well defined chemicals. Getting a grant funded to use MJ would be like getting a grant funded to treat cancer with tree bark instead of taxol.

    Lee replied:

    If you’re not a fraud, find one scientist (just one!) who thinks that anything you’ve written here makes sense. Just one!

    I have not the least idea what he wants me to find someone to say. Since HE is attcking this lady, then may hap Lee ought to come up with an example of some funded research that could not get done because NIDA refused to sell it pot.

    Maybe he simply doe snot understand the difference between alchemy and chemistry? Modern science is built on REAGENTS, that is well defined substances. Does he really think the Feds should fund research on the stuff his buddies are growing in his attic?

  39. 48

    spews:

    @45
    You ought to stuck to what you said, You said the Feds did not have the right to override state law. You were FOS.

    Nope, never said that. Just so you’re fully clear on my position, I believe that the federal government can override state law in cases where a state law violates an individuals basic rights (for example, the new Arizona law). However, the federal government should not be able to override state laws where they establish regulations within a marketplace. What’s so perverse about the drug war is that the federal government is doing exactly what many of the founders envisioned that it should stop the states from doing.

    The link YOU gave does not say enough to tell what she thinks.

    Sorry, here’s her exact quote:

    “Our view is that the violence we have been seeing is a signpost of the success our very courageous Mexican counterparts are having,”

    What I said in response to that was:

    What she’s saying is that the response means that we’re winning. There’s a gigantic difference.

    Can this possibly be any clearer?

  40. 49

    spews:

    @47
    I have not the least idea what he wants me to find someone to say.

    Very simple. I want you to find a single person with a scientific background (i.e. not Puddy or Troll) to email me vouching for you that your comment at #1 makes sense. Just one person. That’s all. I contend that your comment was absurd. All I’m asking is for you to have someone with a scientific background confirm that it’s not.

    Since HE is attcking this lady, then may hap Lee ought to come up with an example of some funded research that could not get done because NIDA refused to sell it pot.

    http://www.maps.org/mmj/DEAlawsuit.html

    Idiot.

    Maybe he simply doe snot understand the difference between alchemy and chemistry? Modern science is built on REAGENTS, that is well defined substances. Does he really think the Feds should fund research on the stuff his buddies are growing in his attic?

    You’re a complete moron.

  41. 50

    spews:

    SJ, you know better than to do that bullshit (trying to pretend I’m arguing things I’m not). Either explain yourself or go away. I don’t lose sleep over deleting your comments and neither does Goldy.

  42. 51

    sj spews:

    I said: The link Lee gave does not say enough to tell what she thinks.

    Lee’s response

    Sorry, here’s her exact quote:

    “Our view is that the violence we have been seeing is a signpost of the success our very courageous Mexican counterparts are having,”

    What I said in response to that was:

    What she’s saying is that the response means that we’re winning. There’s a gigantic difference.

    Can this possibly be any clearer?

    Ahhh hah ,,,

    and you do not think she is saying (whether she is right or wrong) that the violence is a sign that the efforts of the Mexicans are causing the drug runners to fight back?

    I think we are boring everyone.

  43. 52

    sj wi/ editing by Lee spews:

    @59 ahh hah …

    I did not give you grief for deleting comments, that was cowardly. I gave you grief for EDITING someone else’s post. That is dishonest.

    As for Goldy, I do not think he should act as a kindergarden teacher and have told him that. BUT, edit9ing others posts ought to be far beyond the pail.

  44. 53

    sj wi/ editing by Lee spews:

    To explain ..

    Lee’s new trick is to edit posts, without indicating that he has changed or deleted text.

    So, in the interest of full disclosure, I can nto guarantee that the content of any of my posts now on HA has nto been adulterated by Lee.

  45. 54

    sj wi/ possible Edits by Lee spews:

    oops I have no way of knowing who has edited this post so I have changed the signature so as to not give a false impression.

  46. 55

    Queen Christine "now is not the time to raise taxes" spews:

    @42…its one thing to be stoned..its another thing to be so fucking stoned that you dont realize your stoned.