by Will, 08/31/2007, 5:37 PM

The Sierra Club is suing for the chance to attack the Roads and Transit in this fall’s Voters’ Guide. They’re unhappy that anti-transit guys Kemper Freeman Jr. and others are behind the wheel on the “No” campaign.

My question: “Did you even ask to be on the voter statement during the public process?”

I don’t think it was on their radar. Other groups have been bird dogging RTID since the Sen. Jim Horn era. The Sierra Club is just late to the dance.

I don’t like the Voters’ Guide idea in the first place. Who’s the official “Yes” side, and who’s the “No” side, and who decides? The Sierra Club doesn’t want the “No” campaign to be dominated by road guys. Does that mean that John Stanton, Reagan Dunn, and Shawn Bunney are going to split from the “pro” campaign so that they can tell their side of the story? After all, these guys could give a rip about light rail. Do they sue to give their reasons why Roads and Transit is awesome? It’s ridiculous. These sort of measures probably shouldn’t be included in the Voters’ Guide in the first place.

41 Responses to “Either way, Voters’ Guides are dumb”

1. SeattleJew spews:

Will

siggghhh.

and where do you think voters will get information? Sadly, until blogdom grows a lot more there is no reasonable surce … Faux? KIRO??????

2. Will spews:

@ Try reading the WHOLE post

These sort of measures probably shouldn’t be included in the Voters’ Guide in the first place.”

3. Michael Caine spews:

Actually Will, I think he was referring to that statement exactly. On this, I have to disagree as well. For many voters all they see is the title and have not made the time to examine deeply all measures coming up on the ballot.

I was caught unaware that the 2 parks measures were going to be on the ballot until it arrived. As such, I used the voters guide to fill in some blanks in what the measures would provide as well as who might have more info.

4. SeattleJew spews:

Hay Will …

I DID read the whole post. It is exactly these sorts of measures that need some source of info for voters. Where the fuck else do YOU think they are liley to learn anything .. the The timid Times, pitful PI, Monson in the noon?

Unless you mean most of this stuff ought not to be voted on ..then we agree.

Howsa about requiring a quiz before folks can vite on this sort of issues? E.g we could ask

Our roads are permanent, maintainance is not needed.

T/F

Transit is an instrument used in surveying

T/F

etc.

5. michael spews:

Will, have you gone on a Critical Mass ride yet? I’d love to hear about that. This post, not so much.

6. Michael Caine spews:

Mind you, when it comes to the Sierra Club’s issues with the the voter guide and the measure. I do agree with your assessment. If they wanted to be included, they should have been part of the process before the voter guides were written. For that matter, they should have been part of the process that created the measure in the first place. If they think its going to be a better outcome if the measure fails, they are delusional.

7. bill spews:

Read Mike Obrien’s decleration on their silly little web site NO RTID. It took him three months to find a way to NOT get on the CON committee.

A wife beating disbared lawyer (Will Knedlick) figured this out, but Mike could not.

And we are suppose to trust Mike to end global warming?

I wouldn’t trust Mike to work himself out of a cardboard box.

As our trusted crusader to cool the earth, I am curious if he will let us know what kind of car he drives.

Mike care to share with us?

8. michael spews:

Just as an FYI I’m not Mike Obrien. I’m Michael, I’m not in Seattle and I don’t like Seattle. So there. Nah!

9. Roger Rabbit spews:

The voters’ pamphlet is to elections what Value Line is to investing: A convenient source of raw data for people in a hurry but you’re a damned fool if you don’t do your own analysis.

So, I would never tout the voters’ pamphlet as something voters should rely on as a sole source of information — even though many do. That’s unfortunate; but even in those cases, it’s still arguably better than dart throwing.

The issues Will raises are technicalities. Important ones, but these things can be fixed at the administrative level. At the existential level, I think the voters’ pamphlet is better than nothing at all. Without it, people who don’t have the time or inclination to follow politics who base their voting behavior on Seattle Times editorials, TV political ads, or perhaps nothing at all. The voters’ pamphlet, whatever its fault, is better than any of those.

10. Roger Rabbit spews:

BTW, Redneck, 2/3rds of the way through the year, my portfolio is up an annualized 33% since January notwithstanding the turmoil that has afflicted the stock market all summer. How are YOU doing? Is YOUR portfolio substantial enough to pay a $100 debt?

11. Roger Rabbit spews:

N.B., my portfolio would be up 45% (annualized) if my largest holding, Starbucks, hadn’t lost a third of its value this year. And these assholes think liberals are anti-capitalism? Making money in the stock market while I slee beats hell out of WORKING for some greedy cheapskate Republican restaurant owner! Not to mention the PREFERENTIAL TAX TREATMENT that shareholders get compared to employees! Hey Redneck, you fuckwad, if you’re too dumb to make $100 in the market try an Indian casino, maybe you’ll have better luck there!

12. Roger Rabbit spews:

sleep

13. Roger Rabbit spews:

@4 What are you trying to do, reinstate literacy tests?

14. Roger Rabbit spews:

@4 (continued) I don’t think we should make it harder for people to vote. I think we only should make it harder for Republicans to vote.

15. Roger Rabbit spews:

@14 I’m specifically thinking of Jane Balogh’s dog.

16. SeattleJew spews:

@12 13 Roger

I was being mildly sarcastic.

IF I knew how tro create such tests free of bias I would support them, however I see no way it can be done.

I do tink in re mtitatives, we have too easy a path.

BTW ..

Harvey, as yuo know can not vote. Of course he is also not a citizen and is undocumented. See,s unfair.

17. Tlazolteotl spews:

SeattleJew,

I would pay a lot more attention to your posts if you would spend just the tiniest bit of time proof reading before you post. Several in the past few days have been damn near incomprehensible due to typos and poor grammar.

18. What day is it? spews:

I wish the Sierra Club would stick to making calendars and leave politics to enviro groups that have the brain capacity and due diligence to remain involved throughout the entire process…as opposed to throwing stones at the 11th hour.

19. Jane Balogh's dog spews:

Roger Rabbit says:

@4 (continued) I don’t think we should make it harder for people to vote. I think we only should make it harder for Republicans to vote.

Yeah, that will happen. KCRE will never clean their act up, it would cost too many dead,illegal and criminal votes for the dems. If the donks can do it, why not republican dogs. Roof roof

20. Marvin Stamn spews:

#17 Tlazolteotl says:

SeattleJew,
I would pay a lot more attention to your posts if you would spend just the tiniest bit of time proof reading before you post. Several in the past few days have been damn near incomprehensible due to typos and poor grammar.

  
I wouldn’t be surprised if his income is taxpayer funded.

21. Marvin Stamn spews:

#13 Roger Rabbit says:
@4 What are you trying to do, reinstate literacy tests?
1:16AM

#14 Roger Rabbit says:
@4 (continued) I don’t think we should make it harder for people to vote. I think we only should make it harder for Republicans to vote.
1:17AM

  
Hey rabbit, it’s obvious you love to post. Why not type 1 two sentence post instead of 2 one sentence posts? What are you thinking, the person that dies with the most posts win?
Silly rabbit, think and reflect before you hit submit comment.

22. chadt spews:

21 says:
“Silly rabbit, think and reflect before you hit submit comment.”

I cannot believe you expect us to think YOU do this!

23. Roger Rabbit spews:

@17 “I would pay a lot more attention to your posts if you would spend just the tiniest bit of time proof reading before you post. Several in the past few days have been damn near incomprehensible due to typos and poor grammar.”

SJ pointed out a couple weeks ago that he’s dyslexic. That would seem to be a medical condition he can’t do anything about.

24. Roger Rabbit spews:

@18 “I wish the Sierra Club would stick to making calendars and leave politics to enviro groups that have the brain capacity and due diligence to remain involved throughout the entire process…as opposed to throwing stones at the 11th hour.”

Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? The Sierra Club was involved in politics 100 years before the word “environmentalist” was invented. They have been involved with the proposed highway across Fort Lewis for years, and this project’s inclusion in the RTID package is their reason for opposing RTID. They said for months, if not years, that if this road link — which would destroy a critical habitat — were included in RTID, they would oppose RTID. It is, and they are. It was put in RTID as a sop to Pierce County politicians who refused to support regional transportation unless they got their pet road. The Sierra Club and other environmental groups see this cave-in as a Munich. The RTID sponsors were warned that they would face organized opposition from the environmental community if they caved in, and they apparently made a deliberate choice to trade away environmental votes for Pierce County votes. Next time get some facts before you spew skunk dung.

25. Roger Rabbit spews:

By the way, I will vote NO on RTID. And not just for that reason, but also because it scams taxpayers. It provides funding to start some projects (notably the 520 bridge) that it doesn’t provide funding to finish. This means if RTID passes, there will be another (and larger) tax bill later. They will build approacyhes and on-ramps, which will be left hanging in mid-air, and the politicians will say “if you want the rest of the bridge, you must give us MORE MONEY.” RTID is a measly $16 billion downpayment on the $100 billion of transportation improvements that the concrete lobby and WSDOT bureaucrats are determined to get out of us, whether we can afford them or not. Sit down and figure out what RTID will cost your household, multiply by SIX, and that’s what they really want from you. I can’t afford it. Can you? I repeat, I’m a NO vote on RTID.

26. Roger Rabbit spews:

Now, stop and think about it. About half the state’s population, or 3.6 million people, live in the three-county Puget Sound region. Divide 3.6 million into $100 billion and you get $27,777 PER PERSON. For a 4-person household (dad, mom, 2 kids) that’s a $111,000 tax bill for ROADS ALONE, not counting all the other taxes you’re going to be socked with for all the other shit the community movers and shakers want from you — schools, sports palaces, shiny new municipal office towers, and let’s not forget that Seattle’s aging century-old water and sewer systems are soon going to need complete replacement at a cost of billions of dollars. Where is the average family going to get all the money to pay for this? I hope you folks planning to vote “yes” for RTID all have $150,000 a year jobs because you’re going to need every penny.

27. Roger Rabbit spews:

@21 “What are you thinking, the person that dies with the most posts win?”

Something like that, except it’s “the blog with the most posts wins.”

28. Roger Rabbit spews:

@21 (continued) At least reader comments on HA contain substance, in contrast with the brainless bleating that goes on in the comment threads of the pathetic little competing blog. For example, my comment that we should make it harder for Republicans to vote is a well-thought-out proposal that deserves serious consideration. We really should be discussing the issue of all the damage Republicans have done to America in terms of amending the Constitution to keep them from voting in the future. Being a Republican should be a disqualification from voting, just as being under age 18 or a convicted felon is deemed to render one unfit to vote. Actually, the average 18 year old is far more responsible and competent than any Republican you can name. You, by contrast, react to these serious discussions of important issues with screeching, cawing, bleating, scratching, and whining. All the intellectual content is on HA; even the proprieter of the local wingnut blog posts on HA, realizing what a desert his own blog is. Yes, there is some vacuous, specious, contentless drivel in the HA comment threads — the inevitable result of Goldy’s philosophical decision (which I support) to run an uncensored blog, which of course opens the doors to trolls like you and all the methane that you and your troll pals unload here. You guys blow so much gas you can cause global warming all by yourselves without help from cars and power plants! You’re as gassy as cattle.

29. SeattleJew spews:

@17 and @ 20

Sigghhh.

The truth is I never learned to type. I rely overly on spell check.

Best I can do is apologize for damn stupid errors and ask for tolerance.

30. SeattleJew spews:

@23 Rabbit

Thanks for the support. When I was very young I was described as dyslexic, they tell me I cold not read until the third grade.

The problem on blogging, however, is more a matter of being unable to type. I have never been able to teach myself this needed skill.

31. SeattleJew spews:

Roger
Your post on taxes is intriguing. It would be great to see more facts abut taxation.

32. Marvin Stamn spews:

#27 Roger Rabbit says:

@21 “What are you thinking, the person that dies with the most posts win?”
Something like that, except it’s “the blog with the most posts wins.”

  
Thus proving my point I’m a democrat shill.

33. Marvin Stamn spews:

#30 SeattleJew says:

@23 Rabbit
The problem on blogging, however, is more a matter of being unable to type. I have never been able to teach myself this needed skill.

  
hey rabbit, did you read what seattlejew wrote. Sounds like once again you jumped to conclusions and hit submit comment before thinking about what you wrote.
  
Hey, are those carrots you eat fermented? That would explain why it takes you two or three posts to write two or three sentences.

34. Lee spews:

@32
Thus proving my point I’m a democrat shill.

Well, you’re certainly entertaining us with your idiocy. That counts for something.

35. Roger Rabbit spews:

@30 “The problem on blogging, however, is more a matter of being unable to type. I have never been able to teach myself this needed skill.”

Practice makes perfect. Trouble is, if you practice enough, you get carpal tunnel and then can’t type at all. Maybe what you need is a secretary.

36. Roger Rabbit spews:

@31 SJ, the RTID tax package is the usual ornament-festooned Christmas Tree that attempts to buy votes by throwing in something for everyone. The trouble with this approach is that it makes the whole package extremely expensive. They knew they’d never get it passed if they put all the money needed for 520 in it. They’re hoping to float the fact that RTID only includes downpayment money for 520 past unwitting taxpayers. If RTID passes, they’ll come back later for the rest — and biggest chunk — of 520 funding. And that won’t get anyone out of paying tolls; they need the toll money, too, to build their gold-plated 6-lane bridge that somehow manages to cost $550,000 per lineal foot despite the fact it’s nothing but a standard roadway built on top of a bunch of floating boxes made of rebar and concrete (aka sand, gravel, and cement). How the fuck did they manage to spend $4 billion on a bridge only 7,600 feet long that doesn’t have any piers, towers, or cables? The contractor who built the new Tacoma Narrows bridge (completed circa 2007) put up the whole thing for less than $850 million. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

37. Roger Rabbit spews:

@32 “Thus proving my point I’m a democrat shill.”

There’s nothing original about this. Half the wingnuts on this board pretend to be Democrats. (btw, the small “d” spelling is a dead giveaway of your wingnuttiness) The other half pretend to be independents. None admit to being Republicans. Even Mike McGavick didn’t put “Republican” into his campaign ads last fall — apparently he was hoping voters would (mistakenly) think he’s a Democrat?

The funny thing about Republicans is that none of them want anyone to know they’re Republicans.

You lose again, Stamn. Thanks for playing.

38. michael spews:

@24

I’m part of the Pierce County Sierra club and a few of us have said that we’d lobby within the group for a change of stance on the Cross-Base if Pierce County would tighten up it’s growth management and land use regs. is SE Pierce County. No deal from the county politico’s on that one.

39. michael spews:

@18

The Sierra Club is the largest and oldest environmental group in the nation. Sierra is grass-roots in the extreme. Many Chapters sell calendars and go on hikes and stay out of the political realm. The Cascade chapter is involved in the political realm because it’s what the members want to do. The Transportation committee has been active for at least the last 7 years and it’s thoughts and votes on growth of the road network have been consistent over that time.

The Sierra Club is not throwing stones at the 11th hour. Rather, people who disagree with Sierra are throwing stones at it.

40. George spews:

The complete RTID tax package it is going to cost 160 billon plus. Vote No

41. Cascadian spews:

Hmmm. I’m surprised all the big shot investors here are talking smack about being republican. I can’t think of a better time to become one. The brand is in the basement. Now’s the time to get in.