The Bushies have called Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez a dictator and a tyrant… but since when do dictators lose elections?
CARACAS, Venezuela, Monday, Dec. 3 — Voters in this country narrowly defeated a proposed overhaul to the constitution in a contentious referendum over granting President Hugo Chávez sweeping new powers, the Election Commission announced early Monday.
[…] The outcome is a stunning development in a country where Mr. Chávez and his supporters control nearly all of the levers of power. Almost immediately after the results were broadcast on state television, Mr. Chávez conceded defeat, describing the results as a “photo finish.”
“I congratulate my adversaries for this victory,” he said. “For now, we could not do it.”
Our close ally in the “war on terror,” Pakistan’s Pervez Musharraf, he’s a dictator. Our good friend King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, now he’s a tyrant. But Chávez congratulating his adversaries for winning an election? That’s not a dictatorship… that’s a functioning democracy.
Now if only Bush had accepted the will of the people as graciously as Chávez….
Ehh… he delayed releasing results for several hours longer than normal and physically prevented opposition observers from entering the tally room. Something fishy was going on down there.
Chavez is a hero to Venezuela’s vast underclass,whom he has tried to help. Like all South American countries, Venezuela has structural poverty against which our problems pale by comparison. Rightwing Americans judge him against the standards of U.S. society while knowing little or nothing of the conditions in which many of his countrymen live.
Chavez is a foremost exponent of Bolivarianism, whose central precepts are:
Economic and political sovereignty; i.e., anti-imperialism.
Participatory democracy.
Economic self-sufficiency.
Patriotic service.
Equitable distribution of Venezuela’s oil revenues.
Eliminating corruption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarianism
Not exactly a portrait of Stalinism, as wingnuts would have you believe, but rather a democratic economic nationalism that is, in many ways, the obverse of communism’s characteristic totalitarianism, elitism, corruption, and expansionism (yes, commies are imperialists!).
Economic nationalism represents a natural evolution of political, economic, and social thinking on a continent of ex-colonies with a strong historical legacy of economic exploitation and political and social repression.
It is for Venezuelans, not American conservatives, to decide the direction and future of their country. Today, they have done so. The Venezuelan people have decided they like our own concepts of limitations on governmental powers, term-limited presidents, and free speech.
Yet Chavez will be no less popular among Venezuela’s struggling poor and working classes as a result of today’s election. He continues to represent a beacon of hope to people who have had no hope.
It is for Venezuelans, not Americans, to govern their country. Today, they have shown they can do so.
@1 Yeah, he must have rigged the election so he would lose.
BWAAAHAAHAAHAAHAHA HA HA HA HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
LOL Roger Rabbit
You’ve been drinking the red kool-aid. More on why Venezuela is a complete shitshow later.
@4 Why do you care what they do in Venezuela? You don’t live there. The mind-your-own-fucking-business principle applies here.
@4 (continued) You have no business telling them what to do. They understand their problems better than you do. Their problems are different from ours. What works for us won’t necessarily work for them. You should have more respect for other people’s right of self-determination. You’re an arrogant shit.
@4 (continued) So save yourself the trouble of posting your diatribe. It’s not useful. It’s a waste of pixels. If you want to do something constructive, find a Venezuelan and get him to tell you about what his society needs to thrive and prosper. Listening to someone else’s perspective will do you a lot more good than talking to hear yourself talk.
@3
Or they were trying to figure out how to save face in the midst of a crushing defeat. After a few hours it was pretty clear that the thing was going to be defeated, they were probably trying to figure out how to mess with the percentages enough so it didn’t look like a landslide no.
If anyone thinks there wasn’t something odd going on down at the CEN tonight, I’ve got a Roads and Transit package I’d like to give you.
Maybe the Democrats could call up the anti-Chavez folks and ask them how to beat dictators.
@ 9
Except that we don’t live in a dictatorship. We live in a decidership.
Pelletizer (TM) You also forgot that he’s the hero of Cindy Sheehan, Danny Glover, Democratic Underground, Sean Penn, Naomi Campbell and other lefties.
Add Pelletizer (TM) to that list based on post #2
Chavez:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05.....wanted=all
Chavez;
http://www.economist.com/world.....id=6919424
pud
Your second link doesn’t work, and your first is decidedly weak as a criticism of Hugo Chavez. So Chavez is regarded by some in Central and South America as someone who is interested in, comments on, and involves himself in some of the affairs of neighboring nations. Ooooh, how evil! And he has an attitude of “If you’re not with us, you’re against us!” Hmmm, I wonder where he got that one?
He has the overwhelming support of his people and has not invaded and occupied any non-threatening countries thus far. That’s two up for Venezuela over the US.
@Daddy Love:
Overwhelming support? The why did he lose his “re-election campaign” yesterday?
I love how people get online and try to rationalize the actions of Chavez. The flat out Bush-haters, the so-called “intellectual” liberal types who quote wikipedia (what a joke), and the rest of the morons who really don’t understand politics at all, but think they are saving the world with their rhetoric. All of you are fine examples of the public education system here in the US. Keep up the good work. You make us Republicans look better and better every day!!
Hugo Chavez is a thug.
That he narrowly lost a plebiscite that would have cemented him as an unassailable dictator in Venezuala indicates that at least there is some democratic opposition in that country.
Among South Americans in Florida, he’s regarded with extreme distaste. Argentinians, Ecuadorians, and, of course, ex-pat Venezualans loathe him.
He’s “helped” the poor in his country much the same way dictators always do. In our own country, Huey Long, the “Kingfish” and de facto dictator of Louisiana, did much the same. Mussolini made the trains run on time, and Hitler gave Germans the Volkswagon.
Chavez makes nice with Castro and Iran’s Ahmadinejad, two of democracy’s worst friends, all in an effort to establish himself as the El Jeffe of South America by waging economic and oil war against the U.S.
Chavez’s plebiscite wasn’t much different from Hitler’s, save for the outcome. Hitler won his and went on to become the absolute dictator of Germany. Had Chavez won his, he would have done the same thing. Good for the people of Venezuala telling him, “Back off!”
Fascinating how many Chavez apologists there are at HA. Not surprising since any leftist dictator has them all agog with pleasure at how “progressive” the policies of repression are in the dictator’s country all the while venomizing the government of the U.S. not so much for what it does, but rather that it isn’t the government they wanted.
Looney lefties believe in democracy only when they win (or steal) elections. Otherwise, they curse the electorate, shake their fists, and vow to never support anything that isn’t exactly what they want.
The Piper
Chavez has done some unfair things that are not democratic.
At the same time he is not a dictator as that terminology is usually used. He was freely elected with 63% in the last election in which he ran.
Greater dictators are Putin (took over media, banned parties), Saudia Arabia (no elections), Castro (no elections, no free press, etc.) and a long list of communist dictatorships around the world, plus right wing dictatorships in Latin America some of whom were put in power with USA help displacing elected leftist leaders (Guatemala, Chile, to name two). Those dictators had no elections and killed tens of thousands of people and tortured many. Those dictatorships declared legal changes, they used force, and they did not put basic legal questions to the vote.
Chavez wanted to do what the USA President Roosevelt had done — run again. He put it to a vote. He didn’t declare himself president for life, he didn’t force the senate to decare him dictator like Julius Caesar or Augustus, he did not call out the army and take over, as has happened many times for the right wing dictators.
The primary difference between Bush and Chavez is that Chavez was elected.
And do we have a free press???
Like him or not, how does any American even find out what Hugo stands for?
This is nuts. Just suppose this plump red robin is .. err … ahh for real? Suppose he really is devoted to socialism and anti-imperialism? How would anyone tell f4rom our media?
As for Piper’s comments, his ignorance outshines his commitment to know nothing. Hitler never did win a majority in a free election, rather he was appointed Chancellor. Mussolini did make the trains run on time and, contrary to lots we read, opposed Hitler for most of the duration of el Duce’s rule. In out own history, the Hamilton/Adams regime suspended many civil rights as later did Lincoln.
Piper’s no-nothing stand mixed with the media’s say nothing controversial stand, leads to the sad result of electing Bushes.
Failed dictator, then. He lost the “vote for tyranny” plebescite (and reportedly because too many of his suporters assumed he had it in the bag, and stayed home).
Chavez, Musharraf, Putin are cut of the same cloth … making concessions to democracy only so far as they cannot avoid them.
RonK @22,
I wasn’t at all lauding Chavez for his efforts to seize unprecedented executive power, just that his efforts, unlike Bush’s were attempted democratically and within constitutional confines. Certainly Chavez could have stolen this election if he chose to, and he didn’t. I think that deserves to be recognized.
Venezuela just held a free and fair election.
Roger Rabbit…socialism has failed wherever it has been imposed. If Chavez won this election there probably would never have been another because he would have the power. The people of Venezuala realized what he was trying to do and stopped him while they still could. Good for them. Finally, you need to quit trying to shut people up you do not agree with. What are you, a socialist?
Socialism has such a great track record of success wherever it’s been imposed. You Leftist fucktards seem to be blind to that. By the way Goldy, ever heard of the Electoral College?
@24 socialism …
China, Cuba, Sweden, Germany, Canada, France,
all failures
as compared to???
Putin, Argentina, Brazil, Puerto Rico, South Africa, Uganda, Nigeria, etc.
@24 Mike:
Roger Rabbit…socialism has failed wherever it has been imposed.
I know a few Scandinavians that would strongly disagree. In fact, I would make the argument that if oil revenues are flowing into Venezuela, they *should* be used to benefit the poor. I doubt that Chavez would have a base for his political power otherwise.
Another difference between Bush and Chavez is that Chavez hasn’t invaded another country.
It takes a lot of gall to call the European and Scandinavian socialist countries successess when they have all benefited to the tune of billions of dollars by the United States of American providing for their defense. With that kind of subsidy, I suppose any country can claim moral superiority for redistributing from the productive to the unproductive; until it is no longer sustainable or the bad guys attack. But when they do, you know you can count on the Americans to pull your asses out of the fire.
China, Cuba
Successes of Socialism?
Those executed for trying the leave the country might disagree. (If they were still alive that is)
@29 sighhhh
What makes you think that WWII was a s success for free enterprise?
If you’re talking about 2000, the will of the people WAS W. Gore didn’t win any counts in Florida. This is all liberal hysteria and nonsense. Even liberal media outlets who conducted their own counts didn’t find a Gore victory in there.
The most underreported story in 2000 was that Gore didn’t need Florida to win the presidency.
All he need was his own home state.
Yep, just three little votes from Tennessee would have sealed the deal. But he couldn’t win 3 votes from his own home state! That was his REAL problem. Not Florida. Of course, it doesn’t fit the agenda of the leftist media to say that, so you have to hear it here.
..and amazingly, W won it despite the fact that Democrats were working overtime TO THROW OUT AS MANY MILITARY VOTES AS POSSIBLE! Yep, they whooped and cheered with every military vote that got thrown out. Ugly, but true. Gore didn’t win any counts even with that.
What morons these posters be…dictators often come in the back door and inch their way towards control. (See Putin’s election today).
Socialism/communism only killed 100 million people! Let’s give it another chance-eh?
Odyssey @32,
Al Gore won the popular vote. That was the will of the people. Al Gore likely won Florida, but we’ll never know because George Bush succeeded in getting the recount stopped.
You folks only revere the Electoral College because you’ve successfully used it to subvert the will of the people. First time a Republican wins the popular vote but loses the Electoral College vote is when we finally see an effort to abolish it.
And Bush has only killed somewhere between 77,000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/) and half a million (http://www.zmag.org/lancet.pdf) Iraqis. Let’s give HIM another chance too, whaddya say?
35 Goldy
Well, at least we don’t have to worry about that in 2008.
One similarity between Bush and Chavez is they both have ears that stick out. You might call that a simian similarity.
@32
If you’re talking about 2000, the will of the people WAS W. Gore didn’t win any counts in Florida. This is all liberal hysteria and nonsense. Even liberal media outlets who conducted their own counts didn’t find a Gore victory in there.
O RLY?
Gore would have won any statewide recount by any standard.
At least the goldfuck finally admits he despises and wishes to thwart the constitution… the miserable prick fuck.
too bad comrade chavez didn’t invite King County to
manufacturecount votes for him, eh goldfuck.Alexia are you stupid?
You do realize a great number of unbiased, even left leaning newspapers counted the votes and fat al did indeed lose.
Fucking moron.
@41
Didn’t bother reading the link I see.
Standard as set by each county Canvassing Board during their survey – Gore by 171
Fully punched chads and limited marks on optical ballots – Gore by 115
Any dimples or optical mark – Gore by 107
One corner of chad detached or optical mark – Gore by 60
Gore would have won a statewide recount no matter what standard was used.
So Chavez is not a tyrant because his referendum lost? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Chavez still in power? And doesn’t he still control all of the political structure in Venezuela? I’ll believe the wonderful things being written about him when he leaves office, peacefully, on time, as directed by the Venezuelan constitution AND someone not a) related to him or b) employed (or otherwise supported) by him replaces him as president of Venezuela. That is how a REAL democracy (or to be more specific, constitutional republic or constitutional monarchy, such as a British-style parliamentarian system) operates. Then and only then should those of us who consider him a tyrant admit that we were wrong.
Nope I didn’t …who the fuck needs to reak ther koolaid news?
Oh and by the way… the PRESIDENT won a few more battles this weekend… Murtha capitualted, Webb says the war WILL be funded and Chavez lost.
Fuck you…. or are you fucking gaygoldy?
What an enlightening site. The conversation goes from ignorance to personal destruction in 1 thread. Now i know why our political discourse in this country is in trouble. I think its time to close our so-called unbiased education centers (public schools and public funded colleges) and rely on private institutions. This thread makes me ill. OK bring on the insults…..
Oh and by the way…the PRESIDENT has been telling us how Iraq is trying to extract fissile material for nuclear weapons when he has known goddamned good and well it is a lie! Surprise….not.
http://www.dni.gov/press_relea.....elease.pdf
DonT
Umm…this thread has caused you to conclude that we should close public schools and public funded colleges and rely on private institutions?
And you didn’t think that before you came in here?
Could you enlighten us as to your (no doubt private-institution-shaped) thought process and how it led you to that conclusion from your previous position of supporting said public institutions?
43 JB
So you think Chavez is a tyrant because he won two elections with large majorities and then, when he wanted to expand his powers, he put it to a vote of the people?
It’s hard to imagine a monster like that, isn’t it?
While when our president wants to expend his powers, he just writes a signing statement on Congressional legislation stating that he will ignore their attempts to limit his power. What a reasonable man, not a tyrant at all.
re 18: “Looney lefties believe in democracy only when they win (or steal) elections. Otherwise, they curse the electorate, shake their fists, and vow to never support anything that isn’t exactly what they want.
The Piper”
The current Republican membership in the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate typifies this behavior you are describing.
You are an egregious and self-deluded liar, Piper.
49 HL
It’s all about projection for these guys.
I slightly mispresresented something there a moment ago. Chavez’s plebiscite would not “expand his powers,” but among the things it would have done is remove term limits. That’s all. Not declare him dictator-for-life, regardless of what our local idiots would have you believe. It would mean only that he could run again in 2012.
@49…HL…
Hey! I was referring to Goldy’s attitude after the failure of Prop 1…or what we can refer to as Prop flop. That is pretty much what he said.
The Piper
Roger Rabbit says:
Chavez is a hero to Venezuela’s vast underclass,whom he has tried to help. Like all South American countries, Venezuela has structural poverty against which our problems pale by comparison. Rightwing Americans judge him against the standards of U.S. society while knowing little or nothing of the conditions in which many of his countrymen live.
Chavez is a foremost exponent of Bolivarianism, whose central precepts are:
Economic and political sovereignty; i.e., anti-imperialism.
Participatory democracy.
Economic self-sufficiency.
Patriotic service.
Equitable distribution of Venezuela’s oil revenues.
Eliminating corruption.
More like Chairman Mao of China, maybe if we are lucky half as many people will be murdered by the likes of him. Did you all see him hold up his little red book they gave him when he visited Cuba? Now Roger we know you are really a commie hiding in a rabbit skin.
SeattleJew says:
And do we have a free press???
Like him or not, how does any American even find out what Hugo stands for?
This is nuts. Just suppose this plump red robin is .. err … ahh for real? Suppose he really is devoted to socialism and anti-imperialism? How would anyone tell f4rom our media?
Try watching CNN on a daily bases you might get to recharge your little bunnie batteries. Seattle Jew you are a real socialist hiding behind Chairman Moa little red book.
Goldy says:
Odyssey @32,
Al Gore won the popular vote. That was the will of the people. Al Gore likely won Florida, but we’ll never know because George Bush succeeded in getting the recount stopped.
You folks only revere the Electoral College because you’ve successfully used it to subvert the will of the people. First time a Republican wins the popular vote but loses the Electoral College vote is when we finally see an effort to abolish it.
Goldy you are still full of shit!!!! Get two thirds vote in fifty two states and you can throw out the Electoral College. Now your Democrat friends wouldn’t want that. You might have to count the votes correctly in King Country and that will not happen in the next decade. Just like Chicago and you friends Dalley.
Goldy said: “Al Gore likely won Florida, but we’ll never know because George Bush succeeded in getting the recount stopped.”
What a bunch of crock. But what should I expect from the Head ASS?
Goldy, Al Gore’s lawsuit only involved recount of Hillsborough, Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties – all Moonbat! top heavy.
Bush’s lawsuit was this disenfranchises the rest of the state. The recounts stopped.
Al Gore lamented he screwed the pooch not including the other 63 counties. Look up what he said.
REPEATING THE STUPID IDIOT LIE, DOESN”T CHANGE THE FACT IT’S STILL A STUPID IDIOT LIE!
Anorexia@39: Using wikipedia. We know how liberals edit entries to make them look better.
Idiot gene issues?
I love how the liberals repackage Florida 2000 history when Gore hired Dewey, Cheatham & Howe for the 4 county lawsuit and he ended up with Cess, Pool, & Drayne.
Too bad liberals.
Why does Goldstein hate brown people? Why is he making excuses for a faux-democrat latinate dictator who is building despotism on the backs of commoners?
If Hurricane Hugo steps down and walks away before 2013, then we’ll talk. In the meantime he’s still there, accreting power. (Unlike Pinochet, who stepped down and walked away.)
“Now if only Bush had accepted the will of the people as graciously as Chávez… ”
If only Gore hadn’t reversed his concession speech. If only Gore had allowed the counting of military ballots. If only Gore hadn’t turned Florida into a selectively litigated clown act. If only Gore had graciously accepted the will of Florida voters.
Good grief, we’re talking about democracy surviving in another fucking country, and all you wingfucks can do is lie, lie, and lie some more about the reality that your Emperor With No Clue STOLE power?
What, nervous about losing it?
tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick
I realize that no one will actually make it this far in the thread but seriously, I feel like no one here actually reads any unbiased media (that is American Mass Media) about Venezualen politics.
First of All: President Chavez referedum’s did a whole host of things. The fact that he was disbanding term limits was only one. Maybe we could compare this to the Road/Transit prop, it had a set of different and possibly conflicting things that were confusing for many voters. (By the way, it also gave regional leaders WAAAY more power than any state leaders in the US)
Second: All of you people comparing Chavez to Mao, Stalin, Hitler…GROW THE FUCK UP! If you read any Venezualen news you would know that the majority of violence right now is done by Opposition members AGAINST Chavez supporters. He has not killed ANYONE and has only laid down the law on some highly corrupt government officials who, like many South American (and African) governments, were anochornoistic imperialists that had no vested interests outside of their own pocketbooks. The country was going to SHIT before Chavez came up. And the penalities on these people have not even been very harsh.
Third: The main reason for Chavez referendum on allowing him to be reelected (NOT DICTATOR FOR LIFE) is because the opposition is highly funded by American sources and uses an incredible amount of lying, cheating, and stealing to make Chavez look bad. The reason that the TV station’s contract was not renewed (something that the US government has the right to do as well, and this is still widely watched and on cable, just not public access) is because they blatantly lied and used incredibly misinformation to portray Chavez as a facist. (one instances, they straight up used riot material from a totally non-political brawl and said it was Chavez supporters) If any of you have been or read anything on the media in Venezuela it is still entirely open and free and many many papers and tv stations openly oppose Chavez (as do many openly support him) it is completely a free media. If Chavez isn’t allowed the opportunity to finish what he is starting the opposition will easily be able to outfund any other and smear any of their opponents and through lobbying and corporate sponsors reverse all of the good Chavez has and continues to do.
Fourth: Of course S. Americans in the US dont like Chavez, thats why they moved here! its an incredibly biased source. To leave a country in South America and move up to the US takes a vast amount of funds, connections, and business investments. These people are typically the miniscule rich who’s exploitation of the poor is coming to end, thus they have the money to move up into our capitalist haven and bitch about Chavez.
Chavez is an incredibly charismatic leader who really wants to do good things for the people of his country. Unfortunately the US calls him a facist dictator and refuses to give him any support or funds and instead, decides to fund the opposition (much like Syria does in Lebanon and Iran does in Iraq) totally undermining all of Chavez achievments. Since Europe is the US’s bitch they tend to stay out of the whole mess and also give Venezuela little support. Thus, he reaches out to those who are willing to listen to him and give him the support he needs. (ie. Iran, Russia) Blame the US for these connections, its just like Cuba, who BEGGED the US for its support before it had to turn to Russia.
Listen to the Rabbit on this one guys. Venezuela has a history and culture that is entirely different from ours. Their problems and solutions can only be figured out by them, so let them find out what works best for them. And for god sake, LEARN YOUR FACTS before talking about things you don’t know.
I highly recommend Justin Declour’s blog for a fresh perspective on Latin American Politics: http://lanr.blogspot.com/
Venezuela is a backwards, inefficient, rapidly deteriorating banana republic with a complete monkey as its “leader.” Where’s the CIA when you need them? After all, we handled Allende in Chile before…
Long Live The Beautiful People Of Venezuela!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12.....la.html?hp
Suck on that, commie bitches
Chavez is doing some good for his people in redressing the imbalances between rich and poor. But he portrays every businessman/woman, every landowner, as either enemies or potential enemies, and as enemies financed by a government (those morons) that probably couldn’t find Venezuela on a map without bringing in a specialist to point it out for them. But seriously, folks. Could you possibly imagine it? You work hard your whole life, don’t hurt anyone, don’t exploit anyone, become successful, don’t make waves, only to find your shop closed, your land stolen from you, your family turned out of their home because you don’t whole-heartedly support this crackpot Castro-wannabe, or maybe you haven’t supported him enough?
And given Chavez’s diatribes against the American government and people, I don’t think he just woke up one morning and decided that this was a good thing to do. Ladies and gentlemen, meet your new anti-American Axis: Chavez (Castrito? Castronito? Whatever he is, he’s an ugly fuck, that’s for sure), Ahmadinejad (who looks like the unholy spawn of Yasser Arafat and Yakov Smirnoff), and Czar Putin. Putin will have to be dealt with separately, but a single SEAL Team could probably take care of Chavez if he gets too uppity, and Ahmadinejad will be out of office in a year’s time, so he’s no threat.
Roger Rabbit:
Go fuck yourself you arrogant righteous ass.
Yea, the election just ended a few hours ago. Just wait a little while and Chavez’ true colors will show. He is acting too nice. The defication will hit the fan soon. Hugo Chavez will make the opponents of his referendum pay, and pay dearly and you will see the difference bewtween a USA democracy and a Hugo Chavez democracy. You will eat your words you horses ass.
And don’t forget Chavito’s threats to the US and Spain, saying he would suspend oil shipments if he didn’t win his plebiscite (US) and if Spain’s conservative government wasn’t immediately removed from office. What a temper tantrum he’s gonna have! See what happens when King Juan Carlos II tells you to shut the fuck up in public? The clip is actually the hottest cellphone ringtone in Spain right now.
South Americans just don’t make good Marxists, I guess…. well….. Hey, Allende never got the chance to back up his pledge to preserve democracy in Chile before Nixon’s goons capped him……
If Chavez planned ahead he could have hired Dean Logan
to count the votes and keep that oil flowing.