Dear Pro-Roads/Anti-Rail Guys

Dear Pro-Roads/Anti-Rail Guys,

Fuck you. No really… fuck you.

And I’m not just saying “fuck you” out of anger, though hell yeah, I’m pretty damn pissed right now. No, I want you to remember this post as a threat of things to come, rather than just a cussing out for deeds past, for mark my words, you’ve made an enemy, and I hereby promise to do whatever I can to stick Prop 1 so far up your ass you’ll be wiping shit out of your ears with a Q-tip.

You see, you think you were so clever with your $157 billion lie and your SOV-loving Seattle Times endorsement and the way you used the dupes at the Sierra Club to cover for your selfish, car-fetish agenda. But while you may very well have succeeded in killing light rail expansion for a decade or three by defeating Prop 1, I’m going to do my darnedest to turn lemons into more lemons — bitter, spiteful lemons — and vehemently oppose any and all road or bus proposals that subsequently come down the pike. And you know what, I’m guessing that there are an awful lot of Seattle voters who are with me on this.

See, we didn’t just vote to defeat I-912 and preserve the gas tax increase, we progressives fought like hell to defeat it, because raising the gas tax was the responsible, right thing to do. A year later, when Ron Sims came to us and asked for an increase in our regressive sales tax to fund expanded bus service countywide, we Seattle progressives voted for that too. And even when you insisted on tying a roads package to our light rail package, forcing us to vote for highway expansion we didn’t want, we continued to be our usual pragmatic selves, recognizing that some of these roads projects were structurally necessary, while others were politically necessary, and that in the end, the pros outweighed the cons. And then you fucked us.

We gave you your gas tax. We gave Ron his buses. But you refused to give us our light rail. And you did so believing that despite being dicked over on the one thing we really wanted, we would remain good progressives, pragmatically voting to tax ourselves for good infrastructure projects, whenever they came our way. Well fuck that.

Yes, our transportation needs are great, and in some cases desperate, and I’m sure you’re counting on that reality to incrementally achieve everything you want, piece by piece, outside of a mega-package, all the while denying us the one thing that can’t be built incrementally: rail. For example, 520 is just too important to this region, so push comes to shove, Seattle voters just wouldn’t reject funding a new bridge, right? Don’t be so sure.

See, I’m tired of being reasonable. I’m tired of being sensible. I’m tired of being pragmatic, only to have amoral fuckers like you use my pragmatism against me. As far as I’m concerned, the 520 bridge can sink into the fucking lake, I don’t drive it more than three or four times a year anyway. Traffic on I-405? That’s Kemper Freeman Jr.’s problem, not mine. The Viaduct? Screw the Port, screw DOT, screw the state… just tear the fucker down and be done with it. I live in South Seattle. I’ve got my light rail. Everybody else can fend for themselves.


You opposed Prop 1 because you figured you’d get most of the roads stuff anyway, if incrementally, but hell if I’m going to reward you for your cynicism. I-5’s Ship Canal Bridge could collapse in an earthquake, and I will fight against any tax or fee increase to replace it, unless… we get light rail expansion with it. So here’s the deal: first, you give us rail, and then we’ll give you some roads money, because we clearly can’t trust you the other way around. And if that’s not good enough for you then have fun watching your precious gasoline excise tax revenues eaten away by inflation and declining per capita consumption, because you can’t pass another increase without us.

Sure, it’s just little old me talking right now, but while most Seattleites are too polite to swear like me, and perhaps aren’t quite as spiteful either, I honestly believe you’ve underestimated the depth of opposition you’ve generated through your cynical maneuvering. In relying on the absolutist “no new roads” meme enunciated by your allies at the Sierra Club and The Stranger, you may very well have laid the seeds of your own destruction. That’s a meme I intend to seize upon without compassion or remorse, consequences be damned.

We had the opportunity to work together on a regional transportation solution, but instead you chose to fuck us. Prepare to be fucked back.



  1. 4

    MOR spews:

    Jesus Christ, get a grip, Goldy. I voted no because I don’t know a single person who’s going to ride light rail. You live in a fantasy world if you really think a significant portion of the population is going to double or triple their commute time by riding ST. Most people understand this, thus the resounding defeat.

    Your childing foot-stomping over not getting your way on this would be comical if it weren’t so pathetic. Almost as pathetic as your attempt to explain the vote away by citing low turnout.

  2. 5


    you and rosie ……i think after this especially repulsive and childish little tirade of yours, you can probably kiss your radio gig good-bye.
    left foot…one of his finest?if that’s the case, you should all take up a collection for the little golden mooch right now…he is really, really going to need it.

  3. 6

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hmmmm … let me think about this … keep using 520 until it sinks, then let all those Bellevue Republicans get to work by paddling canoes and rubber rafts across Lake Washington. I like it. A lot.

  4. 7

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I’m not against light rail, nor am I against paying for it with a sales tax — as long as the sales tax is on gasoline.

  5. 9

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    And why the fuck not? Why not tax the shit out of gasoline? That would accomplish 3 things:

    1) Pay for transit
    2) Make transit an attractive alternative to driving
    3) Reduce unnecessary driving, resulting in less pollution and congestion

  6. 10

    MOR spews:

    I almost forgot, your threat to unleash your mighty power to influence future transportation initiatives is rendered laughable by your track record of influence on Tuesday.

  7. 11

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    But if you’re going to do rail, you’ve got to do it right. There MUST be adequate parking at the boarding terminals. It MUST go to key destinations: The downtown employment core, the university, major sports facilities, and airport. And it needs to be done in a reasonable way, to keep costs reasonable (e.g., no 5-mile tunnel from U. District to Northgate), and on a reasonable schedule (collecting taxes now for something that won’t be built for 20 years ain’t gonna fly).

  8. 12

    Poster Child spews:

    MOR at 4 – people will be doubling or tripling their commute times anyway – sitting in their cars, and their grandchildren will sit in their cars as the seas rise around them.

    Business as usual is fucking your kids and fucking your kids’ kids. Have a good time in your car, child molestor!

  9. 13

    scotto spews:

    Goldie, as you know, the Sierra Club position has never been “no roads at all.” The Sierra Club will continue support roads that make sense, even though Prop 1 would have passed with no roads at all:


    Here’s hoping that you’ll reconsider your views, and start working towards pracitcal solutions.

  10. 14

    MOR spews:

    I voted for the original light rail, so I don’t have an issue with it in general. Let’s see how the ridership is when the first leg opens and go from there. That’s just prudent financial management. I’m really at a loss to understand those, like Goldy, who are apoplectic about the failure of Prop. 1.

  11. 15


    MOR…where ya been bro? this is all goldy ever does. preemptive[and premature…or is that immature?] gloating and then the ever favorite foul mouthed silly tirade.
    you don’t even have to read between the lines to see that goldy is an outsider looking in [a real job would cure that] and that he is a wanna be elitist snob without the props that really thinks citizens are waaay too stupid to decide their own fates. he should be deciding them for them.
    the big joke? he and roger [as if they are separate,ha!] are both poor moochers that are just pissed as hell that other people have anything. they are entitled man! they shouldn’t have to work for it like the rest of us…just sit around all day and shoot their mouths off as if anyone is listening.
    i’m sure [not really] that the people he ‘aimed’ his silly little tirade at are just shaking in their boots right now. NOT.threats goldy? really?
    because the VOTERS [you know the people that actually pay taxes] didn’t do what you told them to? how could they? no one reads this rag except as amusement honey… really need to get a grip on yourself.

  12. 16

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    You also need to hire enough cops so the light rail cars don’t turn into a homeless shelter or a magnet for muggers.

  13. 17

    MOR spews:

    re: .12

    Nice. So tell me, where am I going to catch a train that goes from home to work to the gym to work to picking my kids up at school to baseball practice to karate and back home? I’d like to see that.

    I’m not alone. That’s how most people’s travels are. In this area, unless you happen to live and work near the rail line, you’re not going to ride it.

  14. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @15 “he and roger [as if they are separate,ha!]”

    Hmmm … well, let’s see if Goldy and Roger are the same person, as Xmas Vapor claims.

    Exhibit 1 — Approximately 1,000 rants against Prop. 1 by Roger Rabbit in this blog during the days leading up to Tuesday’s election.

    Exhibit 2 — Goldy’s comment above.

    Yep, this comment sure makes Goldy look like the Roger Rabbit who voted “No” on Prop. 1! Ghost scores again!!!!


  15. 19

    MOR spews:

    re: .15 – I’ve been reading for a long time. I also read SP. I can’t decide which of them annoys me more, thus the “MOR” sobriquet. Both have a sizable reasonable readership, and both go off the deep end way too often for my taste.

    This is the first time Goldy has gotten me riled up enough to post. I’ve really had it with the “progressives” (whatever the hell that means – I think it means that they know best how to piss away your hard-earned tax dollars) condescending attitude toward everyone who disagrees with them (not that SP is any different).

  16. 21

    compassionatelibertarian spews:

    its a bird! no….its a plane! wait….i can see it now!


  17. 22

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Which Candidates Have Highest Negatives?

    Hmmm … this is interesting … latest USAToday/Gallup poll results.

    Candidate: Mitt Romney, Republican
    Definitely would vote for: 7 percent
    Might consider voting for: 30 percent
    Definitely would not vote for: 56 percent

    Candidate: Fred Thompson, Republican
    Definitely would vote for: 9 percent
    Might consider voting for: 30 percent
    Definitely would not vote for: 53 percent

    Candidate: John McCain, Republican
    Definitely would vote for: 11 percent
    Might consider voting for: 39 percent
    Definitely would not vote for: 48 percent

    Candidate: Hillary Clinton, Democrat
    Definitely would vote for: 32 percent
    Might consider voting for: 23 percent
    Definitely would not vote for: 44 percent

    Candidate: John Edwards, Democrat
    Definitely would vote for: 13 percent
    Might consider voting for: 42 percent
    Definitely would not vote for: 42 percent

    Candidate: Barack Obama, Democrat
    Definitely would vote for: 19 percent
    Might consider voting for: 39 percent
    Definitely would not vote for: 40 percent

    Candidate: Rudy Giuliani, Republican
    Definitely would vote for: 22 percent
    Might consider voting for: 37 percent
    Definitely would not vote for: 39 percent

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: While Giuliani has the lowest negatives and highest potential “vote for” among the major contenders, this poll shows Hillary beating Rudy, 51%-45%.

  18. 23

    BigGlen spews:

    What would be nice would to split Prop 1 in two halfs. The road half and the light rail half. Put them both on the ballot next year and see what happens.
    PS #17 I drive to the P&R, catch the train, go to work, catch the train home go from the P&R, drive from the P&R to the gym, shopping and etc. That is how you take the train to work. The only problem is that the P&R lots on the southend sounder route are all getting full. It you catch the last 2 train in either Auburn or Sumner good luck finding parking. Sound transit needs to build more P&R space, now.

  19. 24

    Poster Child spews:

    MOR at 17
    So your question is: How can I and my SOV driving pals continue to carry on business as usual even as our transportation/land use patterns/environmental thoughtless shortsightedness implode around us?

    Did I get that right?

    I don’t think you can. Okay, I’ll concede – you CAN, but consider the impact of your choices on your grandchildren.

    Doesn’t feel so free in that context, does it?

  20. 26

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @24 Maybe what we need to do is downsize the world’s population through birth control and go back to living in self-contained villages with plenty of fields and green space for rabbits to roam in.

  21. 27

    YIKES spews:

    WTF!! I’ve always wondered just how deep the “deep-end” is Goldy…..since you have obviously fallen off of it, perhaps you can enlighten me??!

    NO ONE I know would ever ride light-rail. It is part of the Progressive Mein Kampff so you goofballs are all for it without considering the TRUE economics.

    Improve the Bus System.
    Expand the Highway System.
    And Progressive Scum….walk & ride yer fuckin’ bikes!!

    Roger Rabbit says:
    “And why the fuck not? Why not tax the shit out of gasoline?

    I’m with you Roger. I can afford another buck or 2 a gallon and that will certainly get the poor people outta their cars. More regressive taxes!!!

  22. 29


    Uff da, Goldy!

    You said, “I’m going to do my darnedest to turn lemons into more lemons — bitter, spiteful lemons — and vehemently oppose any and all road or bus proposals that subsequently come down the pike. And you know what, I’m guessing that there are an awful lot of Seattle voters who are with me on this.”

    Duly noted, recorded, annoteated, cross-referenced, and filed away for credibility impeaching and impugning purposes.

    As transportation planning and projects move away from their feudal nature into a more truly regional, Pugetopolis-oriented, considerably less Seattle-centric basis, bitter and spiteful (your words) attitudes, approaches and verbiage serve only to further margianlize.

    When next you commute, go south to Olympia and ask random members of the legislature whether they’ll listen to anyone with such an attitude. T’ain’t happenin’!

    Here’s that elitist stuff all over again. Pissed because the people panned your prefered panacea, now you want revenge on the people; it ain’t about you!

    And you’ll damage Seattle interests now, too. Best way for Seattle to get a new Viaduct shoved down the city council’s unwilling, surfact option, throat is for you to comment upon it.

    The more you rant on behalf of light rail, the less light rail there will be, and the less likely anyone will listen to your advocacy on behalf of it. You’ll have all the influence you did in the 6th King County Council District race. How appealinig is that?

    We’ve all had our heads handed to us and asses whupped in political races. Best thing to do? Learn the lessons, adjust, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, smile, and get back into it.

    Could it be the people simply said light rail isn’t worth the price? That for far less and a 10-minute longer ride, busses are an acceptable substitute? Is there simply no way that you can be at peace with this possibility?

    BTW…while I’m thinking of it…did Maureen win?

    The Piper

  23. 30

    Poster Child spews:

    520 is the one floating bridge NOT to have sunk,… The Hood Canal bridge sank around 1980, and a span of I-90 which was in the process of being refurbished in the late 80s. I didn’t fact-check the dates.

  24. 31

    T spews:

    I am a long time reader and Goldy fan, a middle aged women who lives in Sumner. My husband works in Kent and for years has fought the traffic on 167. Some times the commute takes him over an hour, and he is literally shaking when he finally gets home. It takes him quite a while to settle down,on the bad days he is practically on the ceiling. After our children were raised, I re-entered the workforce. I found the higher paying jobs were in Seattle, and now I am a happy Sounder rider. I can’t tell you difference between our commuting experience. I go twice the distance in the same amount and often less, of time, and happily surf my laptop or listen to music. I am completely relaxed when I get home, and am ready to move on to other things. I am absolutely serious when I tell you the commute is taking years off my husbands life. I know that I am not telling you anything new, but I do wonder what the underlying reason is for the resistance to light rail. It can’t always be about money. Or can it? I believe Will called them selfish white men in another post, and I wonder do they really have that much contempt for us? Do they really believe that average working Joe’s and Josephine’s are so much beneath them that we deserve to be on nauseating buses, breathing the foul air and stuck in traffic, with commutes that are twice or three times as long as necessary?

    Anyway, keep up the good work goldy, and I do enjoy you on the radio when I get a chance to listen.

  25. 32



    No…The Mercer Island Bridge – old portion, anyway – sank in a Thanksgaving Day storm in 1990. It was closed for repair, so no lives lost or property damaged aside from the bridge itself.

    DOT crews negligently failed to seal off openings in the pontoons (or something like that) thus allowing water to accumulate and…Well, you surely know what happens to concrete structures that fill with water…Glub, glub, glub…

    A naval captain friend said at the time, “No sailors involved in that one!” Nope…Only the geniuses at DOT.

    The Piper

  26. 35

    Poster Child spews:

    Rabbit at 26,
    I think a major downsizing is in the offing, I don’t hold out any hope that it’ll be achieved through birth control.

    I better make sure my kid knows Karate too.

    There will be lots of space for rabbits.

  27. 36



    I am again blown away by the sagacity of your words and piercing insight of your analysis.

    I’ll bet you’re the kind of guy who brings bags filled with rotten tomatoes to your kid’s dance or band recitals. That’s about all you have to contribute.

    The Piper

  28. 37

    michael spews:


    I doubt those folks had much to do with Prop 1’s failure. The truth is that Prop 1-ish proposals have a really poor record of passing. The gas taxes that we passed were very targeted taxes aimed at specific projects with a fairly short time lines for completion. Prop 1 like R-51 was a huge sprawling thing that and nickeled and dimmed people all over the place, tried to do too much and had completion time lines out to 2027. That just doesn’t work.

    The Sierra Club weren’t dupes for standing their ground.

  29. 38

    Aaron spews:

    I’m blown away by your ongoing verbosity. My God you must think a lot of yourself. Get over it.

  30. 39

    sgmmac spews:

    Thanks, Piper! AS you can guess, I don’t live up there. I live in Lacey. I can see a need for rail, though. Maybe the state would have enough money, if they focused on the basics, instead of gold plating every project……

  31. 40

    My Left Foot spews:

    Dear David Stern,

    We can’t fund transit to get folks to your dream arena. We don’t care if you ever come back to Seattle with your NBA.

    Your threat is dealt with thusly:



    Carl Grossman

  32. 41

    Luigi Giovanni spews:

    As far as I’m concerned, Jane Hague and the Republicans in District 6 forever.

    Fuck the Dems for wasting an opportunity and not supporting Richard Pope. Fuck ‘em forever.

  33. 42

    chadt spews:

    You think you’re clever, Piper. You’re a joke. You’re the only one who doesn’t know it. And you’re SUCH a sanctimonious asshole that you’re fun to have around. Keep up your brilliant essaying here. Wouldn’t miss it.

  34. 43

    PassinateJustice spews:

    letter to the Stranger:

    Heckuva job Seattle! As Hunter S. Thompson would say, “You little bastards betrayed us again.” Because you were too stoned to go vote (only about 26% of you did), the right wing kicked ass in this week’s election and Washington State will be the worse for it.

    Because of your apathy, Tim Eyman’s latest creation, I-960, passed and state government will not be able to raise new revenue. Not that this state needs money right, what with our well funded schools and our perfect infrastructure! Speaking of schools, Simple Majority failed, so many will continue to slide into disrepair.

    And of course Prop 1 failed miserably, meaning that repairs to some of our worst roads will not happen nor will we see light rail expansion anytime soon. And no, hippies, we will not see a light rail- only proposal — if you think one could win in this region than you must really be smoking something. Quick! What do Sacramento, St. Louis, San Jose and LOS freaking ANGELES have in common? They all have better mass transit than Seattle. Something to be proud of, huh?

    Election night started out good for progressives. Back east, in bleeding heart VIRGINIA, the Democrats captured the State Senate. The Blue Wave then swept westward, sacking the corrupt Republican governor of pinko KENTUCKY. Next, the Wave turned south, where the Democrats grabbed the Senate chamber in the radical leftist state of mf-ing MISSISSIPPI! Then, in ultra liberal UTAH, a school voucher initiative was crushed. That’s right Seattle, the Merry Mormon state did a better job fighting the conservative agenda than you! The progressive tide hit a wall of ignorance and apathy when it entered Washington.

    I’m considering moving back to Portland — the people there are much more engaged than here. Not only does the city have the most strip clubs and parks in the nation, it also has a terrific transit system. Plus, Oregon has no sales tax and all of its beaches are public.

    So keep napping Seattle. I hope you all enjoy your next governor, Mr. anti- SCHIP, anti choice Dino Rossi.

    Eric Koszyk

  35. 44



    I’m just an ordinary guy making it through the day…

    That I have a love affair with the magic of the English language and find it a never ending source of amazement, amusement, and emotive inspiration is my business, not yours.

    Try reading something other than HA postings and restroom wall scrawlings, and you might improve what little mind you have.

    Start with, “See Dick. See Jane. See Dick run…” and move on from there. It might be available on books on tape for your daily commute edification and enlightenment.

    The Piper

  36. 45

    MOR spews:

    Re: .24 – I have faith in technology. Plugin hybrids aren’t that far away. I drove a motorcycle for years, and will happily get a tiny, fuel efficient car as soon as I’m not hauling kids around any more. I’m sure we can all make use of lots more telecommuting as well. You can’t expect people to selflessly give up their conveniences for the greater good. That would be nice, but doesn’t exactly have a great track record in the real world.

  37. 46


    @41…Chad T….

    When next at the library, check out the DSM-IV (soon to be supplanted by the DSM-V) and browse through it. Pick a disorder, any disorder, and claim it as your own; they all seem to apply.

    As much anger as you display cannot be healthy, nor is it consistent with a self-satisfied, well integrated, happy personality. Just how messed up are your kids?

    The Piper

  38. 47

    Aaron spews:

    Start by getting rid of your kilt and bag pipes.
    Know what we call bag pipe music where I live? Noise pollution.

  39. 49

    ewp spews:

    Stop waiting around for good mass transit in Seattle. It’ll never happen, at least not in our lifetime. Take matters into your own hands. Live closer to where you work. Buy a scooter, moped or motorcycle. Join Flexcar. Stop wasting energy trying to help people do the right thing. Do the right thing for yourself, and when traffic gets worse, you’ll be an example of how to work around this mess.

  40. 50

    chadt spews:

    And now Piper presumes to be a mental health professional, in addition to practicing law (Free Legal Advice) without a license. Since that’s fine in his universe, it must be here.

    At least he doesn’t need reed hair and grease paint.

  41. 53




    Where you live? Can you call what you do “living?” No evidence of a life based upon the bile you post at HA.

    The Piper

  42. 54

    My Left Foot spews:


    Here is some anger for you.

    Fuck you!!

    You are not as entertaining as you believe yourself to be. You are adept at exposing your ass for kicking. Keep it up.


  43. 56

    My Left Foot spews:


    Why do these get caught in the filter.

    Here is some anger for you.

    Fuck you!!

    You are not as entertaining as you believe yourself to be. You are adept at exposing your ass for kicking. Keep it up.


  44. 57

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey WingNutz (TM)! How do you like the New Liberal Paradigm? As exemplified by Goldy’s post above. I didn’t agree with Goldy on Prop. 1, but I agree with him on this: We don’t roll over anymore. If you kick us in the shin, we’ll kick you in the balls!! Nothing’s free … you can fuck with us all you want, but it’ll cost ya!! How do you like that? Liberals now behave like Republicans.


  45. 58

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @48 And where are you going to drive that moped? On the sidewalk, pushing elderly pedestrians and schoolchildren out of your way? Weaving in and out of traffic — you’ll end up as road pizza. The ONLY safe and legal way to operate a motorized bike is in the street, treating it like a car, obeying the traffic signs and signals, and waiting your turn in traffic. Anything else makes you a rogue biker, to be run over at will.

  46. 59

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @27 No. 520 enjoys the distinction of being our state’s only floating bridge that hasn’t sunk — yet.

  47. 60

    Mark The Redneck-Goldstein spews:

    The Producers are fucking tired of having their money wasted. That’s why we voted down $157B to not fix the transportation problem. That’s why we voted for 960 to stop the theft and chicannery. And that’s why we kept school tax votes at supermajority. (BTW, didja notice that my advisory ballot was 100% correct?)

    Do you fucking get it? We’re tapped out and we’re SAFT of having our money wasted.

    You global warming fools and you asshole european socialists are done. The Producers are gonna fucking insist on getting problems fixed and not playing fucking games.

    Assholes like goldy can hyperventilate, but that ain’t gonna change anything. If the transportation taxes ain’t gonna be used to pour big flat stretches of concrete suitable for a SUV, the wallets are gonna stay closed.

  48. 61

    dollared spews:

    Goldy, Seattle “Liberals:”

    Get over it. Please. Another 1M people are coming here. You can’t stop it. They all will own cars, and will drive them. You can’t stop it. Global warming will occur, or not occur, regardless of whatever Ron (big idiot) Sims and Greg (big Fascist idiot) Nickels do about it.

    I will continue to drive my car until I can have my current lifestyle (most importantly my completely nonnegotiable family and work responsibilities) using transit. Sorry, that’s the way things are for real people who have jobs. So, east-west monorail and heavy rail are the only options for getting me out of my car. And since the monorail died, I have no options.

    So let’s get clear on what’s broken: the federal government needs to act to attack global warming. Only a fascist idiot can pretend that he can change the world climate by making it hard for me to park my 37MPG car in my own @#!@#%@$#^@$#^ neighborhood. I hate people who do not understand their role – he needs to keep the streets clean and safe and efficient, keep the #@$@#%^#$ police in line, and balance his budget.

    The rest of us need to focus on driving a truly progressive federal government that attacks global warming at the coal plants and the V-8s SUVs, not by making my life miserable no matter how responsible I am.

    The good news: I will join the Sierra Club. And throw its current bunch of leadership out on their ears. And then they can ride their bikes home in the rain. Then I will work on getting Ron Sims and Nick Licata the retirements they truly deserve.

    Goldy, you got a right to be mad. But it won’t get any better until the Seattle elites focus on the hard work of making local government do what local government should do, and not pretend that they can play at being Robert Kennedy and John Muir from a seat at City Hall.

  49. 62

    ArtFart spews:

    17 “That’s how most people’s travels are”

    WRONG!!!!!!! That’s how most people like you travel. While you’re shlepping your kids and yourself around to all those fun activities, there are thousands and thousands of us who are spending an inordinate percentage of our lives creeping back and forth between where we live and where we work at 20 or so miles per hour, by ourselves in our cars, on clogged up expensive-ways. We do this partly because we’re stubborn, lazy dumbfucks, but also because for many of us, the best way we can do it on the bus takes even longer.

  50. 63

    michael spews:


    I’m 2.5 traffic free miles from work 2 miles to grocery stores and coffee shops. I ride my bike when I can. I’ll never go back to commuting.

    If the choice was between renting and being close to work or owning a home and commuting in traffic I’d rent. Never thought I’d say that, but I’m in the process of looking for a new job and might have to do just that.

  51. 64

    ArtFart spews:

    60 Also because we’re such insufferable curmudgeons we can’t find any friends to carpool with.

  52. 65

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @30 “It can’t always be about money. Or can it?’

    Money is at the root of it, but there are deeper issues. For starters, Sound Transit is distrusted because of past mismanagement, cost overruns, and unkept promises. And then there was the gigantic cost of Phase 2, as presented to voters on Tuesday, and a seemingly arrogant insistence on gold-plating and a stubborn unwillingness of planners, designers, and supporters to compromise with those concerned about costs. And there was the financing scheme … wrong tax, taxing the wrong people, too big a tax. And the construction schedule: Some people would be paying taxes for something they wouldn’t see built in their lifetimes. And finally important details like parking, station locations, ridership rates, comparative costs against other modes of transportation. And perhaps a certain distrust and sense that ST would be unable to build Phase 2 in the promised timeframe with the allocated funds, and would come back later demanding even more money. Basically, a lot of voters reacted to all this like the individual who has been screwed at the auto repair shop one time too many.

  53. 66

    chadt spews:

    @58 MTR
    Who’re YOU trying to fool?

    If you can’t afford to pay a lousy $100 gambling debt, you’re sure as hell not a producer, you’re a liar.

    If you CAN afford it and refuse to, then you’re a dishonorable piece of shit.

    In either case, everyone here justifiably laughs at your crap.

  54. 68

    rhp6033 spews:

    After experiencing the VERY reliable and clean (but overcrowded) rail and monorail systems in Tokyo, I would JUMP at a chance to use them to get between my home in Everett and my work in Bellevue. Right now the commute is costing me about $60 a week (just in gasoline), and that’s bound to increase along with the gas prices. If we had a rail system like the ones that serve major Japanese cities, I could be at work in the same amount of time (about one hour), but get to read the paper along the way.

    One big advantage: No worries about DUI charges after a few drinks at dinner or other event. Surely, that should appeal to a few politicians!

    But the caveat: the rail service has to run regularly, well into the nightime, at least until midnight and starting as early as 4:00 a.m. I remember working in downtown Seattle in the 1980’s when Metro cut back on schedules one time, and I found myself having to catch the last express bus at 5:40 PM, or be doomed to taking the local which took over two hours to get to Lynnwood. That won’t wash. If you can’t work late when you want to, or stay in town for dinner & a movie, then the system isn’t sufficiently reliable for people to make it a part of their daily habits.

  55. 69



    That’s the real reason…

    Can you imagine car-pooling with Goldy when he’s on such an OTR tear, raging as he does? He’d end up on the curb while the rest of the carpool took off without him…despite the fact it’s his car!

    The Piper

  56. 70

    ArtFart spews:

    While we’re at it, how’s about a hearty “FUCK YOU (and the franchise you rode in on)” to David Stern of the NBA, who’s now telling us that there’s “no way” there’ll ever be another pro basketball team in Seattle if the Sonics leave…after Clay(balls) Bennett tells us there’s no way in hell to keep them here.

    Whatsa matter, guys? Ain’t our money good enough for ya?

  57. 71

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @31 “DOT crews negligently failed to seal off openings in the pontoons (or something like that) thus allowing water to accumulate and…”

    That’s not how it happened, Crackpiper. There was construction activity going on that included using high-pressure water demolition of the sidewalks. The water runoff from this operation had to be collected and stored somewhere because it was considered too polluted to be dumped into the lake. WSDOT engineers determined that the pontoons had been over-engineered and could be used to store the water and concrete residue from the hydrodemolition work. Therefore, the pontoon hatches were removed so the demolition runoff could flow into the pontoons. There was nothing wrong with the engineering calculations, but the engineers failed to foresee the powerful Thanksgiving Day storm that dumped additional water into the pontoons from heavy rain and wind-whipped waves. This extra water overcame the pontoons’ residual flotation and caused eight of the pontoons to sink, dragging the bridge down with them.

  58. 72

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The sinking of the pontoons cannot be considered negligent due to the fact the pontoon hatches were intentionally removed as part of the construction work. The storm was an act of God (or act of Nature, choose one). The engineers arguably should have foreseen the possibility of stormwater infiltrating the pontoons, and arguably should have allowed a margin of error for such an occurrence, and therefore it COULD be argued there was engineering error or malpractice involved … but the fact remains it was the storm, not the construction work, that sank the bridge.

  59. 73

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @34 After you humans are extinct we rabbits will run this place and I’ll be the Rabbit King! =:-)

  60. 74

    rhp6033 spews:

    Okay, let’s go back to a plan I proposed a few months back. Let’s appoint a “transit csar”, with full authority to build whatever system he/she thinks is best. Give them a budget which is at least 75% of the Proposition One budget. Hire a Japanese to run the program, instead of Sound Transit. Sure, everybody would be mad, because it wouldn’t be exactly what they want. But after five years of using the system, I bet everybody would agree that it is for the best.

    At some point, we have to get off the pot and DO SOMETHING!

  61. 75

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @42 Oh c’mon now. Eyman’s initiative is going nowhere; it’s blatantly unconstitutional. 99% of school levies passed without Simple Majority, and 99% will continue to pass after the failure of Simple Majority. Prop. 1 was controversial, not a liberal-vs-conservative thing, some liberals voted against it and probably some conservatives voted for it. Tuesday’s election wasn’t a great victory for wingnuts, except in the Sherman-Satterberg race.

  62. 76

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @44 I have faith in technology, too, but I’d like to know where the electricity to run a million hybrid cars is going to come from.

  63. 77

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @58 Until you pay your gambling debt to Goldy, you’re a leech and freeloader on this site.

  64. 78

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @59 “I will continue to drive my car until I can have my current lifestyle (most importantly my completely nonnegotiable family and work responsibilities) using transit. Sorry, that’s the way things are for real people who have jobs.”

    No. You will continue to drive your car until you can no longer afford gas, or until there is no more gas. Then you will walk.

  65. 79

    rhp6033 spews:

    Art at 68:

    Perhaps Congress should hold hearings to investigate how the NBA continues to use its monopoly on professional basketball in this country, when it is obviously using it to restrict competition in order to increase the value of the teams and profit to the owners (i.e., “price fixing)???

    Think that would get their attention?????? Can anyone spell TREBLE DAMAGES?

  66. 80


    @69 & 70…RR…

    As I said, “Or something like that.”

    However, the words of my naval captain friend (“No sailers involved in that!”) need to be considered, too. Obviously the great minds in charge who couldn’t foresee a storm in November weren’t thinking right because…the bridge…SANK! And things like that don’t just happen nor can they dismissively be blamed on Acts of God (odd how liberals only bring up God as a destructive force)…

    Good old garden variety negligence! Failure to perform their duty to keep an eye on that bridge under obviously inclement conditions…Pump out the golly-bob pontoons, if necessary, and claim necessity. Instead…glub, glub, glub.

    The Piper

  67. 81

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Breaking News — Federal Court Enjoins State Pharmacy Rules

    “04:25 PM PST on Thursday, November 8, 2007
    “Associated Press

    “SEATTLE – A federal judge has suspended Washington state’s requirement that pharmacists sell ‘morning-after’ birth control pills …. In an injunction signed Thursday, U.S. District Judge Ronald Leighton said pharmacists can refuse to sell the morning-after pill if they refer the customer to another nearby source. … Leighton’s order is part of an ongoing legal and political battle over the morning-after pill. …

    Under pressure from Democratic Gov. Chris Gregoire, state regulators earlier this year ruled that druggists couldn’t withhold any prescription because of their personal objections. Two pharmacists and a drugstore owner sued the state over the new rules in July, saying their civil rights were violated by the move. They had asked the judge to halt forced Plan B sales while the lawsuit is in play.”

    Quoted under fair use; for complete story and/or copyright info see

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: Judge Leighton is a Bush appointee.

  68. 83

    ArtFart spews:

    74 Hey, maybe that’ll be the electricity that would have otherwise been used to power the light rail system.

  69. 84

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    All I’m asking for is consistency, Piper. Let’s not have a double standard here, one for bridge engineers, and a different one for ship captains.

    As you know, thousands of ships have sunk in storms. Was it the captain’s fault in each and every one of those cases? Is a ship sinking in a storm a result of negligence in every case?

    If sailors — including good sailors — sometimes lose their ships in storms, which happens, then why should a ship captain get smug about bridge engineers losing their bridge to a storm that was fierce enough to sink any pleasure craft that might venture out in it?

  70. 85

    ArtFart spews:

    31/69/70 The DOT folks also knew that it would actually cost less to build a new south bridge from scratch than it was going to to rework the Murrow bridge. They also knew they’d be skewered if they dared propose such a thing in public. In a perverse way the storm saved us all some money.

    Lucky coincidence? I’ll leave it to y’all to judge.

  71. 86

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    At least your ship captain pal can brag that he wasn’t the captain of the Edmund Fitzgerald. There were no survivors in that one. The 792-foot-long ore carrier, which was only slightly smaller than the Titanic, apparently went completely under in less than 60 seconds.

  72. 87

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @68 Yes. Let’s get our congressional delegation working on this asap. Stern needs to be reminded that what Congress giveth, Congress can taketh away.

  73. 88

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    So, Stern’s argument is, despite the fact there are several local groups in the wings who are willing and able to buy the Sonics, and willing to play in Key Arena, unless Washington taxpayers pony up $500 million for a basketball palace there will be no team in Washington? That sounds like a misuse of the congressionally-granted sports franchise monopoly to me.

  74. 89

    Redundantly spews:

    I couldn’t stand to read all the to and fro and mindless namecalling. Take a breath, Goldy, live to fight another day. I disagree with you on much, but respect your fighting spirit. SO….Fight on.

  75. 90

    Redundantly spews:

    Rossi says he already has $500,000 for campaign

    Posted by David Postman at 03:43 PM

    GOP gubernatorial candidate Dino Rossi says he raised more than $463,300 in the last six days of October, and $110,000 in the first two days of this month. Rossi announced his candidacy Oct. 25 and the campaign just put out a press release announcing the figures, though official reports have not yet been filed with the Public Disclosure Commission. They are due Saturday.

    The Rossi campaign said that the $463,300 is three and a half times more than he had raised by the end of October 2003 in the early days of his first run for governor. Campaign spokeswoman Jill Strait said the campaign has already spent about $42,000 so far. But that is not a final number for last month and could change by the time reports are filed Saturday.

    Gov. Chris Gregoire has raised about $3.25 million so far in her (officially unannounced) re-election campaign. October fundraising reports filed so far show Gregoire raised $321,000 last month. While at least some fundraising reports have been filed, reports showing the monthly total and the amount of spending have not. Last month the Gregoire campaign was showing about $2 million cash on hand.

  76. 91

    LONG_LIVE_THE_SUV spews:

    How do I put it to you assholes: People will NEVER give up their cars. You hear me? NEVER. The Iraq war is being fought as we speak to ensure that we have oil (at current U.S. rates of consumption of about 650 million barrels a year) for the next 300 years or so. The value of the 200-300 billion barrels of oil in Iraq (possibly more, as Iraq has had only about 2000 wells drilled compared to over 1 million in Texas – there are vast areas of the country that remain completely unexplored), is anywhere from 10-30 TRILLION dollars. Our federal government will end up paying about 2 trillion dollars for the war. We’ve got the fucking Iraqis over a barrel (oooh i love puns) by forcing them to sign PSAs (Production Service Agreements) for their oil contracts (essentially the oil will come out of the ground and go straight to ExxonMobil with a maximum royalty to the Iraqi government of about 10%). On top of that, oil in Iraq is some of the FUCKING CHEAPEST IN THE WORLD TO EXTRACT – about 1-1.50 per barrel you bitches. Shit pencils out kids, so buck up and get ready for:

    I-605 (Thats for that additional 1 million people supposedly coming here. they gotta live somewhere, and the pool of people willing to live stacked 50 stories high in a fucking condo in Belltown is quite limited)

    I-5 expansion through Seattle, including the demolishing and removal of the convention center (yeeeeahh bitches I want me 10 fucking lanes in each direction from fucking Olympia to Everett)

    I-405 expansion to 5-6 lanes in each direction

    167 expansion to at a minimum 6 lanes in each direction

    Intelligent transportation systems rolled out statewide to reduce congestion (distributed computing + wireless transmitters anyone?)


    So, while India and China try and fucking develop their shithole countries by burning crude they have to ship from halfway around the world that’s purchased at market rates because they have failed to invest in the conquest/occupation of any oil producing countries, we will be sitting pretty and fucking BLASTING DOWN THE ROAD AT 80 MPH!!!



    …trust me, I once hated george bush too. but once I realized that he was working to ensure my ass cheap, plentiful oil for the rest of my life, I started to like him.

  77. 92

    bma spews:

    I’m going to do my darnedest to turn lemons into more lemons — bitter, spiteful lemons — and vehemently oppose any and all road or bus proposals that subsequently come down the pike. And you know what, I’m guessing that there are an awful lot of Seattle voters who are with me on this.

    I’m with you on this one. I don’t think that I’ll be able to forgive the smarmy attitude of the Sierra Club regarding this entire issue for a long time.

  78. 93

    chadt spews:

    Please keep coming here and totally wasting your time. You won’t change any minds here, but it makes you feel better, AND, it’s amusing to watch.

  79. 95

    LONG_LIVE_THE_SUV spews:

    Oh yeah, I totally forgot to add:

    Iran is next. That’s another 200 or so years tacked on to the 300 that we’re getting from Iraq as far as future American oil supplies. Dick Cheney is a hell of alot smarter than you all think.

    A 2 trillion dollar investment to recover 30 trillion dollars of the resource that makes the world go round? And control it? And keep your competitors in check by controlling it? My god these guys are geniuses.

    Talk about fucking world domination!

  80. 96


    @82 & 84…RR…

    Sometimes ships sink and negligence is involved. When that happens, masters and captains get cashiered.

    Sometimes ships sink and nothing could have prevented it. Life happens.

    But no captain worth his salt leaves gaping holes filled with water unattended, period! The instant that storm kicked up, a DOT crew should have been there pumping the Hell out of those pontoons, environmental bitching be damned; the doctrine of necessity would overide minimalist environmental concerns.

    Engineers are paid to foresee things like storms, wind, and waves.

    Let’s just say that my naval captain friend said what he said with great disgust over the ineptitude of those in charge.

    The Piper

  81. 97

    LONG_LIVE_THE_SUV spews:

    Chadt –

    Its not really about changing minds – but hey, the info might help somebody think a little different about the whole situation. Its just that I finally realized that all of this foreign policy bullshit is really about ensuring American access to easily recoverable crude oil.

    I love to drive, I hate taking any and all forms of public transportation, and put 2 and 2 together – these guys are making sure I can continue to enjoy my quality of life!

    Its evil, disgusting, amoral, etc etc…but its true!

    I just get a little excited when I think about it :)

    …already dreaming of the open road

  82. 98

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @89 “The Iraq war is being fought as we speak to ensure that we have oil (at current U.S. rates of consumption of about 650 million barrels a year) for the next 300 years or so.”

    Let’s fact-check this. Annual U.S. consumption is 7.3 billion, not 650 million, barrels. Iraq has 112 billion bbls. of proven reserves. Divide this by U.S. consumption and you get 15.4 years, not 300 years.

    In fact, if you divide the world’s known reserves (950 billion bbl.) by global consumption (31.4 billion) there’s about 30 years of supply left, but only if new discoveries equal or exceed growth in consumption.

  83. 99

    Highway 2 Hell spews:

    Oh no. The whining whiner is whining again. You got your rail in 1996, many years and many billions of dollars in the past, and we’re still waiting for the damn choochoo to run or to run on time. Meanwhile, the building of roads, aka infrastructure, has been in abeyance since about Spellman. Maybe earlier.

    Finish the first part of your master plan, Casey Jones Goldstein, and maybe we can talk about part deux. Maybe not. Or maybe you should take your screechy little issues to Chairman EnRon Sims who says that if we want roads (and we do) then we’ll have to pay tolls for using any pavement beyond our driveways and somebody’s parking lot.

    That’s not just tolls on new construction. That’s on every existing road in Sims’ domain. Scratch off the progressive veneer, yours and his, and smell the superating fascism as it leaks out.

  84. 100

    scotto spews:

    @42, Sound Transit would have passed without the highways:

    http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource .com/seattlepolitics/archives/ 125368.asp

    It’s also clear that the global warming damage done by those highways were a major factor in Prop 1’s defeat.

    You can be sure that politicos are taking note.

  85. 101

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    @89: “People will NEVER give up their cars.”

    When they are pushing them to work and to run errands like Fred Flintstone, most of them will get a clue sooner or later.

    Trust me on this.

  86. 102

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @93 “My god these guys are geniuses.”

    You’re certainly not. You can’t even get basic facts right. Iran has about 133 billion bbls. of reserves, which at the current production rate of 1.5 billion bbls, will run out in less than 90 years. Iran has produced up to 6 billion bbls. a year in the past; if that production rate could be sustained, Iran’s reserves would last about 22 years. The 1.5 billion bbls. Iran produces today amounts to less than 5% of world consumption. If Iran provided all of the world’s oil, at current consumption rates Iran’s oil would last less than 4 1/2 years.

  87. 103

    LONG_LIVE_THE_SUV spews:

    Hey Roger!

    My bad for the math mistakes. However, your number of 112 billion barrels in Iraq is extremely skewed due to the fact that the country has barely been explored at all. I will refer you to an article that discusses the information in detail:

    Its from Brookings…so don’t call me a wingnut who reads lol

    The conventional wisdom is anywhere from 200-300 billion barrels, with potential for much higher reserves. So that would be anywhere from 30-41 years of consumption at current rates. But wait! Cars are getting more fuel efficient! If we can increase mileage across the board 20-25%, we’ll be fine for the next 60 years. And that’s just from Iraq’s oil! Don’t even start me on the possibilities when you include a huge ramp-up in Libyan production, Iranian production…its still party time!

  88. 104

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @94 “The instant that storm kicked up, a DOT crew should have been there pumping the Hell out of those pontoons, environmental bitching be damned; the doctrine of necessity would overide minimalist environmental concerns.”

    Nice theory, but government engineers generally don’t do things that are illegal, at least not until someone in a position of authority orders it.

  89. 106

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The point, Piper, is this is not a proper subject for generalizations; you assign blame or fault on a case-by-case basis. As an ex-lawyer, you should know that. You have no excuse for your uninformed and mindless shit-flinging.

  90. 107

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @97 “The whining whiner is whining again.”

    So? If Rossi can do it, why can’t Goldy? Why should Republicans have a monopoly on whining? If whining is good enough for losers like Dino, then by God it’s good enough for Goldy, too!

  91. 108

    George spews:

    1. Sink the 520 Bridge. Give five years notice so that the respective economies of the Eastside and Seattle can adjust. The result would be the economies would develop more independently and the Eastside would adjust towards urbanization and as a result towards more independent transportation solutions. In addition getting rid of that bridge changes the overall character of the Lake remarkably fo the better.

    2. Make the only Seattle connection be on the I-90 corridor. This way high use functions supporting rail and transit are funneled into one corridor for more efficient use, regional planning and cost effective solutions. I am not interested in paying for a new 520 bridge which has no more general purpose lanes and the car pool lane will be useless. Sink the 520 bridge and then let the communities adjust.

    3. Let those on the west side of the Lake develop and pay for their own transportation solutions and those on the Eastside of the Lake do the same. Even though some people on the Eastside may not think so, Seattle needs the 520 Bridge more than the Eastside does. Particularly if we don’t have to subsidize those in Seattle on their wishes because they think they are a regional center. They aren’t.

    4. Take Bellevue, Redmond, and Issaquah out of King County. Let us have our own council and also allow us to jettison the Metro Franchise. I have never seen such a clunky system and a lot of it has to do because it is Seattle centric. By getting rid of 520 we could have a lot more efficient Eastside transit system. Look at your bus schedules to get from Bellevue to the UW. In reality this is caused by having two bridges. Think how complicated transit schedules would be with three bridges or even four.

    We do not have to accomodate somebody’s desire to live in Auburn and work at Boeing in Everett and provide a half hour commute by light rail. We all make choices and the choice to commute or live close to your job is a choice we all make.

  92. 109

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @101 Granted that Brookings is a credible source, did you even read the article? No, you did not. It says:

    “This means that the probability that Iraq has 200 bbl or 300 bbl, as so many of the reports have suggested, is, according to USGS calculations, close to nil.”

    Here’s something else you should know about the Persian Gulf oil provinces. Except for a couple of relatively modest fields, all of Saudi Arabia’s oilfields lie in a belt straddling the Gulf coastline. Saudi Arabia has been fairly heavily explored, and the inland parts of the country simply don’t have oil. The same is generally true of all the other Persian Gulf countries. This means it’s unlikely Iraq has large undiscovered fields in its interior. Granted, much of Iraq’s interior is unexplored, but if there’s much oil there, it will be an exception to what has been found everywhere else in the Mideast.

  93. 110

    JANE BALOUH'S DOG spews:

    Wow. If liberals react like this when one of their initiatives gets voted down just imagine if an election was stolen from them. Of course it is understandable, liberals have always been pussies. roof roof

  94. 111

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The notion that the world has undiscovered giant oilfields is a pipe dream. There may be significant deposits in the Arctic and Antarctic, but if so, that will by no means be cheap oil to find, extract, and bring to market. Arctic oil is the most expensive oil in the world.

  95. 113

    JANE BALOUH'S DOG spews:

    Roger Rabbit says:

    @108 Why can’t we behave like Republicans? After all, Republicans do.

    11/08/2007 at 6:51 pm

    No, why would you libs want to win elections honestly. Remember- What would Mayor Daly do.

  96. 114

    Right Stuff spews:

    Goldy must have just come out of a Democrat Spin, talking points meeting.
    This of course would be a typical knee jerk liberal reaction to the people stating their desires at the ballot box.

    This region wants transit. This region wants congestion relief. We voted for ST.

    The problem is the decades of WADOT planners not focusing on congestion relief. Instead we’ve had poor leadership, wasteful use of resources, and lack of direction.

    Remeber this region voted FOR Sound Transit. What we got was a late project that cost twice what was promised and delivered ~70% of the service….We’ll see about what the true ridership turns out to be.
    I think the vote this past Tues sent a message to ST that “we don’t believe you anymore, finish what you started and prove that it works before asking for more.”

    It was less about partisanship and more about the “track” record of ST (or lack thereof)

  97. 115

    thor spews:


    Keep it up.

    The road guys had their last best chance and opposed it. The typical tactics these 60 plus guys used have been exposed. They usually don’t display their idiocy to people, prefering covert tactics to public displays of stupidity.

    They actually thought (and still think) that if voters know the facts as they’ve contorted them, there will be a pro road uprising. I am not making this up!

    They’ve lost youth. Youth will save us from the old road farts which now include Brian Sonntag, the State Auditor who runs the most covert public agency pretending to be transparent as glass. Dino Rossi has also used their radically old school message as a central feature of his new campaign.

    Youth didn’t show up in this election. And if they did, they tended to vote pro transit and anti road. They’ll turn out in droves in 2008 to support Democrats, defeat Dino and enact effective rail transit. It will be the best opportunity in a lifetime to bury the the old road gang that has tied things up in knots around here for decades and defeat Dino Rossi and his road gang at the same time.

  98. 116


    If any of you had any doubt that some who work at polling places or post offices fix elections by throwing away ballots, just take a look at Roger Rabbit’s posts. Listen to the hate and intolerance he has for Republicans. Do you have any doubt that if someone like RR handled ballots, he would throw away completed ballots from Republican disticts? I have no doubt that someone that is this hate-filled would.

  99. 117

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    Nice job Mr. Piper Scott irritating the natives. Unlike the regulars on here that are only proficient with 4 letter words, your way with words sticks out like a dictionary at a redneck BBQ. It’s easy to see why so many of the posters think you are a snob, they have never seen so many words with multiple syllables.
    Something else the regulars are quite intimidated by, unlike all these proud liberals you don’t hide behind a fake name. Kudos. As Chef Ramsey would say, you’ve got big bollocks.
    Speaking of chef Ramsey, he’s got a great recipe for rabbit.
    I enjoy reading your posts. Both for the entertainment value of knowing that rabbit, lee, chadt, leftfoot, proudtobeabigass and all the others that spend their lives on this blog are seeming with wrath and unable to form a proper sentence but also for the facts you cite, like the information about the DOT screwing the pooch with the platoons on the bridge.

  100. 120

    dlaw spews:

    Dear Goldy,

    We presently have two concepts for high-capacity transport.

    One is highways.

    The other is rail.

    Highways are a self-creating problem. In a developing area, all highways fill to traffic capacity – in fact, this is the desired outcome. There is no highway system which will see use fall in an economically healthy and developing area. So at some point, you simply stop building them. There is no answer to the “traffic problem”. Traffic is a sign of economic health. Obviously they also create pollution, etc..

    Rail was created – in the 19th century – to solve two problems: reduce the cost of building roads and maximize peak loads of whatever you want to move. First, rail now costs five to ten times what it costs to put down just concrete and asphalt. The initial costs are prohibitive AND until the line is finished connecting the most desirable destinations, all the expensive sections are worthless. And as if that isn’t enough, rail is so expensive, you can’t economically connect it to the neighborhoods.

    The problem of mass transit is adoption, not efficiency. Peak load is not your problem, getting people to choose mass transit over their cars is the problem.

    There is a solution. You build a less-expensive railway, except there are no rails on it, only asphalt. And there are also no cars on it, only buses. It’s called Bus Rapid Transit. You increase the speed and efficiency of the bus system that already runs on city streets by taking parts of the system out of the city streets, one by one.

    Rather than thinking that a meaningful number of people are going to use a rail system simply because it’s there (the evidence is against you), solve people’s problems with mass transit. It can be done with just a little imagination.

  101. 121

    LONG_LIVE_THE_SUV spews:

    So anyways, how’s about demolishing the convention center and adding some lanes to I-5?

  102. 123

    SeaBos84 spews:

    pragmatic condescending reality based goldie feels screwed by an out of touch political establishment

    from someone who recalls the insider-know-it-all put downs towards those who thought cantwell was and is a waste of time and money


    although, since you’re so smart, only your disgust with our worthless ‘leaders’ is valid, the rest of us can’t figure out reality, right?

    your great game stratergeries are now a thing of hte past?



  103. 124

    My Left Foot spews:


    Now our friend CrackPiper is a bridge and nautical expert. Makes two experts on everything on earth here at HA. MTR and Crackpiper.

    Geeesh, we ought to count our blessings.

  104. 125

    My Left Foot spews:


    How can we be so lucky?

    Now our friend CrackPiper is a bridge and nautical expert. Makes two experts on everything on earth here at HA. MTR and Crackpiper.

    Geeesh, we ought to count our blessings.

  105. 126

    ratcityreprobate spews:

    @119 Michael

    Sorry, I meant @38 not @37

    And as for commuting @63 I agree. Thirty two years ago my wife and I had had our fill of commuting and the suburbs, moved into the City, close to work, and have never regretted it.

  106. 127

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    #122 My Left Foot says:

    Dear Marvin:
    You were not missed.
    Fuck you!!

    Once again helping me prove my point about the regulars. Many thanks for your wonderful use of the english language.

  107. 128

    busdrivermike spews:

    Southbound rail will never go south of the airport, unless they build another line to downtown. Putting light rail on the surface parallel to and on MLK doomed light rail’s ability to move people quickly.


    That is the major malfunction. It was a political decision by Jan Drago and the Seattle City Council, and it is a fatal flaw, and Sound Transit knows it. That is why they wanted a vote before light rail service starts.

    Hey Goldy, last time you said “Fuck you” you were talking about how the Fed should lower interest rates to help the mortgage industry.

    Let us see how that worked out. Everyone is running from the dollar, as Roger Rabbit and I predicted. It has done nothing for the mortgage industry, since mortgage rates and the “risk free” rate have an inverse relationship. However, since the Treasury Dept. has to sell short term notes to keep us in borrowed money, interest rates will now start an uphill climb.

    Maybe you should do some research before you wish for something. Maybe you should consider that other people have interests and wisdom before you throw expletives around like a school yard bully.

    RTID 2 would have solved nothing, because at the end of the day, the developers and their payed for politicians would have decided how that money was spent. The eastside freeways would have been built, and maybe rail would have gotten as far as Mercer Island.

  108. 129

    Some Guy spews:

    Here’s an idea… turn all the carpool lanes into bus lanes. Build flyover ramps and left exits that connect the bus lanes to each other… build them everywhere. Buses will move around the region at full speed–no traffic, no merging. Don’t have a highway where you need mass transit? Then build a dedicated busway (start by looking at the lines that Sound Transit 2 has identified). move a ton of people at a fraction of the cost of light rail.

  109. 130

    chadt spews:

    Marvin, you’re no less challenged than you always were, and don’t try to sound like you know what you’re talking about by using endlessly boring prose because you think big words are impressive. Piper’s got that cornered, and you’ll just keep crashing into each other.

    If you’re going to team up to drive us all out and destroy this blog,. you might very well succeed. Then what will you do with your life?

  110. 132

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    #129 Chad T

    …because you think big words are impressive.

    Sorry to use that big 4 syllable word “dictionary” in my post, not trying to show off. Let me explain, it’s a big book with a lot of words in it.

    If you’re going to team up to drive us all out and destroy this blog,. you might very well succeed. Then what will you do with your life?

    Considering the number of my posts and the number of your posts, the better question would be what would you do with your life?

  111. 134

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    #132 Piper Scott eloquently wrote:

    Based upon Chad T.’s @129, are you thinking what I’m thinking?

    Yup. It’s pretty obvious, even to a troll like me.

  112. 136

    chadt spews:


    You want me gone, Piper? Will your world be all better if I leave and don’t come back?

  113. 137

    ArtFart spews:

    108/120 Indeed everyone keeps assuming there are three options: more cars, more transit or both. How about…neigher?

    I couldn’t agree more that it’s absurd for someone to live in Auburn and commute to Paine Field, but it’s not entirely their fault if Boeing transferred them. If we’re going to get serious about dealing with the problem, we’re going to have to force corporations to take responsibility for their contribution to it, just as new housing developments get assessed to pay for the roads, utilities, police, fire and schools they create a need for (all too often against the screaming protests of the developers).

    Eventually, if an employee gets transferred from one end of the county to the other, the employer should be required to pay relocation, just as if they were transferring that employee clear across North America.

    Draconian? You bet. Beats the shit out of murdering thousands of people on the other side of the world so we can (supposedly) get their oil.

  114. 138

    AP spews:

    I am pro-transit; the light rail idea is beyond idiotic. Its costs and capabilities are not worth the investment. How long does an express bus take to get to Seattle from Federal Way? How long would it take on your multi-billion dollar LRT line? I am not against lightrail, I am against idiotic routing of the lightrail. Let’s get creative with the funding, and build the lightrail in choke point laden, congested Seattle, where it is dense enough to support it. And also trans-lake, the biggest choke point of them all in this area. Fixing the highway system will get the people from the burbs into Seattle on their express bus just fine.

    The sooner we end this idiotic roads vs. transit war, the sooner we get the first class highway AND transit system in this region. The sooner we come up with sane plans, the sooner more of the public jumps aboard.

  115. 139

    jvon spews:

    Wow. Just… wow.

    Do you realize how deranged you sound? Have any of you people studied the impact of the proposed light rail system on traffic flows? Or do you even care about the congestion problems we have? People are NOT going to stop driving because you build a light rail system that serves a tiny strip of land along the coast.

    You’re not a “progressive”, no matter how often you use the word. You are an urban elitist, looking down your nose at all the people stupid enough to live outside Seattle city limits.

    Fuck you, right back atcha.

  116. 140

    correctnotright spews:

    I love it – Piper is for roads but against the DOT.
    Piper hates light rail and taxes but like most libertarians/republicans forgets that “socialized” roads, schools, police and fire built, protect and make this country work.
    We tried unrestricted free market in this and other countries – it was rejected because it didn’t work. It led to the robber barons, the great depression and other fiascos.
    The great thing about supposed “libertarians” is they don’t even recognize what government does for them now and they want to kill it favor of….nothing.

    Republicans these days prefer the corruption of corporate lobbyists running the country. No new taxes is their mantra.
    I agree some with goldy – I was for Prop. 1 and I am mad at the Sierra club and Ron Sims and Kemper Freeman and the Bellevue elites. None of you guys have a viable alternative plan – your opposition was all hot air and you fooled the gullible voters in an off year elections (congratulations, you get to sit in traffic with no alternative form of transportation (rail)). I wanted rail and I wanted roads. Neither will get passed alone. I won’t vote for any of your lame ideas now…

  117. 141

    Hullabaloo spews:

    >For example, 520 is just too important to this region, so >push comes to shove, Seattle voters just wouldn’t reject >funding a new bridge, right? Don’t be so sure

    I guarantee you that Seattle would be more hurt than the Eastside…that’s where all the business growth is. Have fun in your sea of condos with your “progressives” leaching off what’s left of the tax base. Seattle is becoming a bedroom for the Eastside.

  118. 142

    george hanshaw spews:

    Gee Goldy, you seem a little upset. Too damn bad.

    You see, I’ve been upset since 1968 when you jerks started tying ridiculous mass transit packages to needed transportation initiatives in this state. You did it in 1968 with one of the first Forward Thrust proposals and did it again in 1970. We approved an awful lot of what you wanted in Forward Thrust because it was indeed needed…parks, sewers, even something called the Kingdome.

    But the mass transit ideas were always grandiose and never reflected reality, so they didn’t pass. In spite, you and your ilk started holding hostage every single needed traffic improvement to more money for transit. And finally, after decades of humoring you, we just said no.

    You gripe about roads users ‘getting their 9.5 cent a gallon tax’ as if it came out of the mass transit users pocket. It doesn’t of course…except of course when they use their own cars.

    Follow the money. Most of mass transit funding comes from non-users. Damn little of the cost of roads and bridges comes from anyone BUT the users, although certain classes of users, ie., those riding buses, clearly don’t pay their fair share.

    If you want your stupid choo-choo train, Goldy, there is an easy way for you to get it. Just PAY FOR IT YOURSELF. I pay tolls to go on the Tacoma Narrows Bridge and I have little doubt I’ll be paying tolls to go on 520 in the future. I can live with that. But I’m not going to pay tolls AND vote to subsidize YOUR chosen mode too, so I intend to vote down every mass transit project that doesn’t fund itself through user fess…that is, farebox revenue.

    I’ve explained that to my pro-transit friends who complain that NO TRANSIT SYSTEM funds itself 100% through farebox revenue. That doesn’t surprise me. But the fact that you and others like you have the arrogance to assume that you have a right to have other people fund YOUR chosen mode of transportation doesn’t surprise me either, I’ve seen it go on too long.

    So I’m with you, Goldy. No more paying for the other guy. You fund yours and I’ll fund mine. I’ll pay a few percent more no doubt, but that ought to be almost offset by what I’m no longer paying for YOUR chosen mode.

    I kind of wonder how you are going to manage to fund a multibillion dollar investment in light rail on the taxes and farebox revenue of those few people who both live and work within a quarter-mile of one of the 16 stations. Let’s see, pi r squared with an r of 1/4……gee, that’s only about three square miles ot of the 500 square miles that Metro serves…..wonder how may people live in that three square miles and what each’s share will be of that $10 billion capital cost and 100 million annual O&M costs?

  119. 143

    george hanshaw spews:

    Eventually, if an employee gets transferred from one end of the county to the other, the employer should be required to pay relocation, just as if they were transferring that employee clear across North America.

    Talk to the UAW about how well hammering US auto industries with unreasonable requirements works, even when you’ve got a government approved monopoly. Boeing can build jets in Poland just as easily as they can build them in Everett.

    You doubt that can happen? Ask the UAW.

  120. 144

    george hanshaw spews:

    The argument that Prop one would have passed “with no roads at all” is laughable.

    The argument assumes that if you added all the people to the “yes” vote who indicated they would have voted yes EXCEPT for the roads, it would have put the proposition over the top. What the argument does NOT account for is those who were voting for it ONLY for the roads portion who in the absence of the roads portion would not have voed for it at all.

    The fact of the matter is that the politicians in Seattle have been eternally reluctant to give people an up/down vote on roads because they KNOW that mass transit is and has always been funded on the backs of people that don’t themselves use it, and if those people stop paying for it, it will disappear altogether, because the small user base damn sure can’t afford to fund it.

  121. 145

    Tlazolteotl spews:

    vehemently oppose any and all road or bus proposals that subsequently come down the pike. And you know what, I’m guessing that there are an awful lot of Seattle voters who are with me on this.

    Fuck yeah, Goldy.

    As for that Sierra Club Poll? I call bullshit! People did not fucking vote against Prop 1 because of fears of global warming. That is the largest dump I’ve ever heard. They voted against it because people are sick and tired of sales and property taxes.

    Can we get an income tax now, like the adult states have? Please, mom?

  122. 146

    george hanshaw spews:

    As for that Sierra Club Poll? I call bullshit! People did not fucking vote against Prop 1 because of fears of global warming. That is the largest dump I’ve ever heard. They voted against it because people are sick and tired of sales and property taxes.

    Can we get an income tax now, like the adult states have? Please, mom?

    Yet another “progressive” heard from.

    This time it’s, let’s soak the rich, because I’m too damn cheap or lazy to pay for the ‘transportation choices’ that I want.

    You don’t NEED to use property taxes to pay for transit. You don’t NEED to use sales taxes to pay for transit.

    The precedent was set by the Legislature when they restored the toll to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. It’s going to be a world of USER FEES.

    Use farebox revenues to cover the total costs of transit, both capital AND O&M. That includes having bus-transit, that is now getting a free ride (pun intended) on the roads and bridges pay their pro rata share of the cost of that infrastructure, just as the truckers do.

    And you can toss into that USER FEE arena, the state ferry system. No more subsidizing that through the gas tax. If you don’t use the ferry, you needn’t pay a dime to support it.

    Those transit routes that aren’t self-sustaining have lost in the social-Darwin hierarchy of needs and the people wanting transit should move elsewhere to be with a population density of like-minded people who can actually support their chosen mode economically.

  123. 147

    correctnotright spews:

    Hey George Hanshaw:

    You and your fellow idiots voted out a cheap mass transit in the 70’s because – the argument went then – we didn’t need it because I-5 would never be full and cars rule. Really, that was the pathetic argument – it was too expensive and we didn’t need it.
    Well – idiot! – it was cheap and you were not only wrong but nearsighted.

    So you were wrong then and you are wrong now. You can see about 2 minutes into the future and no further. Your sorry type will be the ruin of this formerly great Puget sound area. Hope you sit in traffic forever.

    When gas is eventually 100 bucks/gallon and the economy is in ruins and only the rich can drive – you will be praying for mass transit and how cheap it really is.


  124. 149

    george hanshaw spews:

    You and your fellow idiots voted out a cheap mass transit in the 70’s because – the argument went then – we didn’t need it because I-5 would never be full and cars rule. Really, that was the pathetic argument – it was too expensive and we didn’t need it.
    Well – idiot! – it was cheap and you were not only wrong but nearsighted.

    A typical ‘progressive’. He and his are brilliant, everyone else is an idiot. The fact of the matter is that the MAJORITY voted it down then just like they voted it down now. It was in fact NOT chap, even though Warren Magnuson was in a position to provide govrnment pork to cover 80% of it. It would have cost it excess of $1000 per family at the time, not counting interest expense, approximately half what a new VW bug (or 30% of a new Mustang) cost at that time. And it would have served a paltry few who like today would have had to be eternally subsidized by everyone else.

    When gas is eventually 100 bucks/gallon and the economy is in ruins and only the rich can drive – you will be praying for mass transit and how cheap it really is.

    GMAFB guy. Look at where the money comes from to fund mass transit. When gasoline is a hundred dollars a gallon and only the rich can drive, the revenue streams that fund mass transit damn near disappear. MOST OF MASS TRANSIT ID FUNDED THROUGH GASOLINE TAXES.

    Look at the USDOT. Look where they get their money…the money they use to cost share transit improvements and largely pay for capital investments…like new buses.

    Mass Transit is funded by those non-users and when the non-users quit paying, it needs to fund itself. Take a good long look at those numbers.

    One should consider carefully who is the idiot…a person who funds more than their fair share of the total transportation choices, or the person whose transportation choices depend on being a parasite on those who do not share those choices.

    The day that everyone becomes a transit user is the day that all revenue for transit operations and capital expenditures must be paid for entirely by transit users. At that time the transit users cease to benefit by exploiting the commons and they too must share in the bloated costs of their mode of choice. Except they won’t….and never have.

    It’s a fundamental principle in biology. When the host animal dies, the parasites die with it.

  125. 150

    ridovem spews:

    @91, my suspicion is that, oil off the coast of Brazil notwithstanding, your SUV is dust when oil prices have moved up another 50% or so… & then you’ll be Loving_that_jet_ski! ^..^

  126. 151

    george hanshaw spews:

    There are any number of studies on why light rail is dumb.

    This is only one of them:

    An excerpt:

    The growing cost of transit is in part due to the high
    cost of rail transit. Although rail transit carries only
    36 percent of transit trips, it consumes 66 percent
    of transit capital funds. Light rail is particularly
    wasteful, producing only 3.6 percent of transit trips
    yet sonsuming 12 percent of transit capital funds.
    Transit’s fundamental problem is that Congress has
    given transit agencies incentives to overspend on highcost
    transit systems rather than to provide the most
    efficient transit service to the industry’s core market of
    low-income and other transit-dependent people. The
    result is more hardship for such low-income people while
    transit is increasingly a subsidy to well-off suburbanites.
    Fixing this problem will require major changes to the
    federal transportation funding process.

  127. 152

    george hanshaw spews:

    And as for us being so dumb when we voted down the Rail Transit portion of Forward Thrust in the Sixties and Seventies, and the funds Maggie had set aside got sent instead to Atlanta, the funds didn’t do them much good either….

    Atlanta opened its first rail line in 1979. The incremental
    growth of the rail system initially led to a major surge
    in transit ridership. However, ridership peaked in 1985
    and subsequently declined slowly for about a decade.
    The 1996 Olympics (shown in the chart in fiscal year
    1997) gave the transit system a boost, but ridership
    subsequently declined and by 2003 was again lower
    than its 1985 peak. APTA reports another half-percent
    decline in 2004.

    Atlanta transit’s anemic record more closely resembles
    a region in decline, such as Pittsburgh, than a growing
    one such as Portland. Of course, this isn’t so. Over the
    years shown in the figure, Atlanta’s population nearly
    doubled and annual miles of driving more than tripled.
    If Atlanta had invested in low-cost improvements to its
    bus system instead of expensive rail transit, the transit
    system might have kept up with this growth. Instead,
    it is increasingly irrelevant, having declined from 2.0
    percent of motorized travel in 1983 to 1.3 percent two
    decades later.

  128. 153

    george hanshaw spews:

    Light Rail Users are elitists and racists…..

    Since light rail ground-breaking ceremonies are usually preceded by highly publicized struggles for funding, transit officials are under tremendous pressure to boost rail ridership. As a GAO study notes, emphasis shifts toward serving rail: “When light rail lines are introduced, transit agencies commonly
    reroute their buses to feed the rail line.” In order to address its high cost, transit agencies may further tilt resources toward rail and away from bus. The result often means fewer bus lines, fewer and older buses; so a bus service that was not good to begin with gets even worse.

    During recent decades, civil rights organizations have filed many complaints and lawsuits against transit systems whose fare and service policies were seen as discriminating against poor patrons. Bus riders in Los Angeles are particularly familiar
    with the tradeoff between rail and bus service. Beginning in 1986, local policymakers began to divert funds from a successful
    bus ridership program toward rail construction. Four years later, bus ridership fell by over 96 million passenger boardings per year (19.3 percent). By 1995, lost bus ridership was 10 times that gained by the new rail line. The issue drew intense political scrutiny, culminating in a legal victory for the Bus Riders Union, a grassroots organization that represents the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s largest client group. A U.S. District Judge signed a consent decree designed to prevent the MTA from favoring rail at the expense of bus. Nearly a decade later, the court-appointed monitor still struggles to get the MTA to purchase enough buses to abide by the consent decree.

  129. 154

    correctnotright spews:

    George Hansshaw is an idiot:
    Name one major city that doesn’t have rail or subway?
    Oh that’s right, you have never been out of Seattle so you can’t.
    Rail is more efficient, can run on clean fuel, doesn’t get stuck in traffic like lousy buses (use them to get to and from the rail).

    No George – you and the neanderthals you commune with haven’t looked up in ages and won’t take mass transit even it it wre available – so you spoil it for the rest of us. I hope you and your SUV are stuck in traffic forever with you gas prices over 100 bucks.

    Yeah, voters have voted down light rail – but this was a dirty combo – they also voted down the roads. The bottom line is that you fooled the voters again – like in the 70s – and we still don’t have a mass transit like every other major city in the world!
    You guys have never had a coherent argument – just an anti-tax facade.

  130. 155

    compassionatelibertarian spews:

    Sorry correctnotright, you are sorely mistaken.

    Less than 20% of Metro’s operational costs are captured at the farebox. Thats OPERATIONAL costs, not even capital expenditures, which run into the hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

    People like to drive. The focus should be on fixing bottlenecks, introducing vehicles that are more fuel efficient/don’t use any fuel at all, and developing technologies that allow us to reduce or eliminate congestion (perhaps you should take a look at what DARPA has been up to with autonomous vehicles).

    The bottom line is that nobody will ever willingly give up a convenient form of point-to-point, comfortable, efficient, and extremely affordable form of transportation to take a 19th century 55 mph maximum toy train from where they don’t live to a station where they don’t work. You had your chance. Its time to fix our roads.

    -And everything that georgehanshaw is true: I have not heard one of you self-proclaimed transit experts refute his arguments that mass transit is primarily a means to move the poor, and that it is unable to be self-supporting. Instead of rhetoric and invective, maybe you should focus on how to solve the region’s mobility issues.

  131. 156

    MOR spews:

    You tell ‘em, George! We may have to call this debate by invoking the mercy rule. In typical fashion, you lay out the facts and attempt to persuade by reason. The other side resorts to name-calling.

  132. 157

    george hanshaw spews:

    George Hansshaw is an idiot:
    Name one major city that doesn’t have rail or subway?
    Oh that’s right, you have never been out of Seattle so you can’t.

    Never been out of Seattle? I’ve been everywhere from the Middle East to Guam. There are certainly cities with the population density to support rail transit. Seattle just isn’t one of them.

    Besides, this is America. What people WANT counts for something here, and what they WANT is the sort of transportation freedom that the personal auto gives them.

    But I’ve got a better question for you. Can you name any three US cities that get 10% of their total passenger miles from ANY form of transit? I’ll even give you the first two, New York and Chicago, both with population densities greatly exceeding Seattle. Good luck finding a third one…there isn’t one. And if that weren’t enough of a problem, Seattle’s population density is actually LESS now than it was in the 1960s….

    All of which proves the intellectual bankruptcy of trying to push transit as a solution to Seattle’s transportation needs.

    And LIGHT RAIL is the LEAST efficient form of transit.

  133. 158

    george hanshaw spews:

    To correctnotright

    A little reading would help to educate you. Try this URL

    from Open Spaces Magazine,

    An excerpt: Why Don’t (Most) New Rail Systems Work?

    The fact that new rail systems almost never work is well documented.(“Work” is defined as making a positive contribution to the cost efficiency of the transit system, and/or [ideally both] an improvement in the share of trips served by transit. The goal is to improve market share, not simply to add some new riders. If the community is growing and travel trips are increasing, local transit could add riders while losing market share, which amounts to going backwards.) The studies are legion, but among the most lucid and up-to-date are those by Jonathan C.D. Richmond of Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government. His most comprehensive study on the subject, which includes close attention to Los Angeles and Portland, is “A Whole-System Approach to Evaluating Urban Transit Investments,” Harvard University (November 1999). He concludes,

    “[N]ew US rail transit systems have generally performed poorly. Total transit ridership has shown only minimal improvements and, at times, declined. Financial performance has been disappointing in most cases, particularly when understood in the context of the additional system costs imposed through the reconfiguration of bus networks to serve the new rail systems.”

  134. 159

    compassionatelibertarian spews:

    Hey George,

    What took you all over the world? (Specifically the Middle East)…I’m in school right now but have a pretty cool opportunity in Dubai with their Executive Council for the upcoming summer…just wondering how it is out there for a Seattle kid haha. Anyways, thanks for the links, I’ve sent the “Rail Disasters” pdf to about 30 people today.

    “Couldn’t we just get together and agree on the few basic Commandments that are laws? Like ‘I won’t slaughter you, and don’t take my shit.”

    -Bill Maher

  135. 160

    Liberal Dragon spews:

    The people of the Puget Sound are so fucking dumb when it comes to this shit.

    They have no fucking realistic vision – in fact, in this regard, we’re about as intelligent as a bunch of fucking inbred idiots from Mississippi.

    The fact is that any city that’s put light rail in has seen a large ecnomic benefit and now we’ve fucked that. The fucking Sierra Club have played right into the hands of fucking Kemper Freeman. Now we can thank those dumb fucking idiots for really screwing the future of our economy in the Puget Sound.





  136. 161

    Liberal Dragon spews:









  137. 162

    compassionatelibertarian spews:

    Liberal Dragon,

    Newsflash! You are an ignorant fool. Please climb back underneath whatever rock you crawled out from, shrivel up, and die. Thanks!


  138. 163

    JP spews:

    Well what next for transit?? I suspect that this will go down just like me waiting around for a phone call from a hospital in PHX telling me that my parent is now hospitalized and will only be able to be released into a care facility that can shield her from herself,
    in other words, despite the hue and cry we have put up over the years it will all be for naught until a REAL crisis hits. These commuting wars are nothing like the resource wars that are coming.

    an hour communte my car? so what? $4 a gallon gas? so what? YOU WILL NOT GET MY HANDS OFF THE STEERING WHEEL UNTIL YOU FREE MY COLD DEAD HANDS UPON MY DEMISE…

    I’m a lifer here, born and bred. In the middle 70’s Professor Horowitz in Engineering at the U-DUB was still showing the movie about why he and all the other folks were opposed to the Forward Thrust transit package to every class he taught on campus. His main argument was that no one would ever live out at the end of those rails lines and no jobs would ever be found out there as well….

    Well gee, he sure had that right didn’t he??

    So here we find ourselves 40 years later (gawd! the years they fly like horses over the hills…) and nothing much has changed.

    I voted against the package primarily due to my resentment that the other 36 counties in WA state don’t mind sucking on the public tit out of Olympia for there own projects but will be damn if a nickel from Olympia ever goes to anything in the Godless Central Puget Sound region. We have real problems here with getting around but until we get an earthquake to knock down every failing roadway in the region nothing will get done.
    I am not a fan of incremental votes to squeeze out every damn road project that the old fat white guys foist upon us. I’ll be voting No on every damn one of them until we can pack up our house, sell the money pit to some wide eyed 30 year old Internet/web designer/marketing whiz (hurry up and buy this before your job gets shipped offshore to Vietnam) and take a moving van to Northern California.

    The dithering around the Hwy 99 Viaduct has killed my interest in staying here, the Eyman led tax revolt is going to continue here and the Dems can’t seem to understand that small government is good (Hey Christine G –that rope around your neck that Dino is holding was put there by all the new employees that the state has hired in the last 3+ years.)

    So bring on another roads and transit package but just do it state wide for revenue purposes– that I will willingly support and sell.

  139. 164

    compassionatelibertarian spews:

    @ 163

    I’ve got a better idea:

    No new taxes. Cut spending. Build roads with the savings from the massive layoffs of state workers. Then break the teachers’ union. That one’s just for shits an giggles though.



  140. 165

    george hanshaw spews:


    and how many of these people live within the 3+ square miles of the Metro area within a quarter mile of a proposed light rail stop?
    Answer, damn few.

    And of those people that do…who live close enough to conceivably use it, how often is the destination they are going to ALSO within a quarter mile of a proposed light rail stop.

    Answer: Fewer yet.

    So why build something incredibly expensive to serve these few? Particularly to the demonstrated detriment of the other transit riders?

    The demonstrated population density of that metropolitan area simply does not support light rail as an economic transit mode.

  141. 166

    george hanshaw spews:

    Here are some figures for you to mull over:
    As of the U.S. Census of 2000, there were 563,374 people, 258,499 households, and 113,481 families residing in the city of Seattle. The population density was 2,593.5/km² (6,717.0/mi²).

    As of the census of 2000, there were 2,896,016 people, 1,061,928 households, and 632,909 families residing in the city of Chicago proper. This encompasses about one-fifth of the entire population of the state of Illinois and 1% of the population of the United States. The population density was 4,923.0/km² (12,750.3/mi²).

    New York is the most populous city in the United States, with an estimated 2005 population of 8,213,839 (up from 7.3 million in 1990).[3] New York’s two key demographic features are its population density and cultural diversity. The city’s population density of 26,403 people per square mile (10,194/km²), makes it the densest of any American municipality with a population above 100,000.[4] Manhattan’s population density is 66,940 people per square mile (25,846/km²), highest of any county in the United States.[5][6]

    Now Mr. correctnotright,…are you STARTING to get the picture here? Even if Seattle were not losing population to the suburbs, it has nowhere near the population density to make mass transit as a substantial ftaction of passenger miles a remotely viable option.

    If you don’t want Seattle to go the way of Detroit, you better fix the roads…..

    Boeing was giving you a hell of a hint when they moved many of their major operations to Everett. They gave you another one when they moved their headquarters to Chicago. My guess is that three strikes and you’re out. You won’t have a traffic problem then…or an economy either.

  142. 167

    Right Foot spews:

    Left Foot @ 3:

    Figures you would yell BRAVO for the worst piece of prose I’ve ever read in my long life. Why don’t you take Goldy’s dick out of your ass and then go fuck yourself.

    You to, Goldy.

  143. 168

    george hanshaw spews:

    Things we know about transit users

    We know a lot, actually. That’s because the Federal Transit Administration gives out a tremendous number of grants to study transit rider behavior, and has been doing so since the 1950s.

    Some of the things we know from simple observational studies. Don’t ask me WHY they are this way, this is just what they found when they looked.

    1. The average transit rider will not walk more than 1/4 mile to board a transit vehicle. Those studies reflect the general willingness to walk found in the seventies aand eighties. We’ve gotten fatter since then. That’s also a “good weather” value, something that we in the NW are not blessed with in abundance. Before you scream that you routinely run marathons, save your breath. That’s the average cutoff. For every marathoner out there, there’s some guy who won’t walk to the curb.
    2. Same thing goes for the other end. The average American doesn’t want to get to the drop off point and find he has more than a quarter-mile to walk.
    3. 85% of people refuse to do transfers from one route to the next. Don’t ask me why…I don’t know. These may be the same people whose VCRs always blinked 12:00 from the day they plugged them in until the day they replaced them with TiVo.
    4. Item three (above) is NOT valid for intermodal transfers. Even fewer people will do those…somewhat less than 10%. Nobody knows why.

    These studies certainly play in to the Light Rail debate. The idea that a light rail is going to be the backbone f a bus-lightrail grid just doesn’t play out. Compared to a bus transit system, the light rail system has severely limited access. That accounts for its improved average speed (about 17mph) over bus transit (approx 12mph). Light rail doesn’t stop as often. The bus may have several stops within a block, while light rail typically has one stop per mile. The problem is there aren’t that many people that live within 1/4 mile of that few light rail stops. For a 20 mile route with 20 stops you would have less than three square miles of people (pi (1/4)squared x 20)…little more than three square miles. In the last census the population density of Seattle was 2,593.5/km² (6,717.0/mi²).

    While the actual light rail corridor may be somewhat more densely packed than that, it won’t be much more densely packed, and if we had really implemented Prop one and run it out to Tacoma…. well in Federal Way city limits proper proper, the population density is all the way up to almost 4000 people per square mile, but for most of unincorporated King County along the proposed route to Tacoma it was only a small fraction of that. Tacoma itself has a population density of 3865 people per square mile.

    So among the many problems with light rail is an access problem, particularly with population densities as low as these. By comparison areas like Chicago (where the population density is 12,750.3 per square mile) can support rail transit. It almost amounts for ten percent of their rush hour passenger miles. To get SERIOUS utilization, you need population density like Manhattan. With 66,940 people per square mile, rail makes sense. New York city gets about 40% of its passenger miles from transit…mainly rail (subway).

  144. 169

    cmiklich spews:

    Let’s see: The conservative lists the facts about light rail and why it’s ineffective. Insightful and well thought.

    The liberal retorts with vindictive personal attacks. Ad hominem, mindlessly weak.

    The difference in intellect is staggering.

  145. 170

    george hanshaw spews:

    Let’s see: The conservative lists the facts about light rail and why it’s ineffective. Insightful and well thought.

    The liberal retorts with vindictive personal attacks. Ad hominem, mindlessly weak.

    The difference in intellect is staggering.

    I heard Whoopi Goldberg explain this on an interview once. She indicated that her feelings were just as valid to her as the other person’s logic was to them.

    I believe she was telling the truth, and that this is representative of liberals as a group. They don’t so much think as emote.

    I think the diatribe at the top of this discussion is a perfect example of this….

  146. 171

    KS spews:

    To hell with those who wanted to ramrod Prop. 1 down our throats. Self-serving special interest narcissists ! How about once, just once that a plan for traffic congestion has common sense and realizes that you don’t get something for nothing. There is room for this if transportation policy wonks decide to listen for a change to the public sentiment, but to say Fuck this because you wanted Prop. 1 and didn’t get your way is immature and stupid- so vent it out by going and telling the world again that Bush is Hitler…

  147. 172

    John spews:

    George Hanshaw, to the best of my knowledge there are no longer any Metro routes that have multiple stops per block. In fact, Metro has reduced stop frequencies on many routes to try to speed up bus trip times. I’m told that in the ’70s you could ask the driver to stop anywhere you wanted to, within reason – at any corner, in essence. But I wasn’t riding Metro then.

    The reality of the average transit rider being unwilling to walk more than 1/4 mile from a stop is quite true – I worked a bit on the Monorail planning process, and one of the challenges with stop placement was maximizing the number of folks who could walk to each one. Sound Transit dealt with the same issue in the LINK planning process for the line that’s currently under construction. The intermodal transfer numbers are awful – when I lived in Portland, the best solution they had was to have buses *waiting* at MAX stops for people getting off the train. That works if you have sufficient real estate in the station area…otherwise it’s not that simple.