Day three of my Caribbean cruise the really boring election contest trial

[NWPT48]It’s beautiful outside, and like an idiot, I’m sitting inside, watching the pointless proceedings from Wenatchee again. Oh well… I guess I might as well write about it. And as always, I urge you to check out David Postman’s “straight, cogent” trial dispatches.

Counting ballots the Nicole way
King County Elections mail ballot supervisor Nicole Way has strapped on her Depends and mounted the witness stand, where Republican attorney Harry Korrell will spend the next few hours trying to trick her into semantically contradicting the testimony in her deposition. Every time he succeeds, bells will go off in the courtroom, while balloons and confetti rain down from a trap-door in the ceiling. My understanding is that Davis Wright Tremaine’s contract with the GOP stipulates that the first attorney to secure a perjury conviction, wins a new Cadillac Escalade. Sweet.

Of course, the main purpose of her testimony is simply to recycle headlines of Way’s faulty mail ballot report, the centerpiece of GOP allegations of fraud. So this should be dramatic testimony, right? Right?

Meanwhile, on Zoboomafoo, the gang learns about different breeds of horses and how to care for them.

Losing focus (11:40 am)
It looks like the Seattle Times’ “straight, cogent” David Postman is having as much trouble keeping focus as I am. Postman’s last three trial updates have reported on “political celebrities” and judicial quips. With no actual news to report, his occasional updates are reminiscent of the tiny inhabitants of that speck of dust in Horton Hears a Who, yelling “We’re here! We’re here!” I know you are David, and I feel for you. But at least you are getting paid.

Anyway, after a brief recess, Democrat attorney Jenny Durkan has started her friendly, cross-examination of Nicole Way.

In other news, Mister Rogers shows how exercising, such as jumping rope, is good for you.

Breaking News: court breaks for lunch! (12:04 pm)
The court has adjourned until 1:30 for lunch… and I’m guessing a few drinks as well. When they return, Democrat attorney Jenny Durkan will finish her cross-examination of Nicole Way, which has managed to make the circumstances surrounding the erroneous mail ballot report sound much less “sinister.” Later this afternoon, the Judge will conduct the “Frye hearing” on the admissibility of the GOP’s proportional deduction methodology.

Meanwhile, the Boohbahs do a bending exercise, while in Storyworld, Aunty finds three droopy flowers. Can Mr. Man help her water the flowers in time?

Snarky Radio (1:57 pm)
A big thanks to Stefan over at (un)Sound Politics for reminding me that I’ll be back on the John Carlson Show with him, KVI-570, at 3:15 pm. Though according to the Snark, I’m only there for comic relief. Hmm. Well, I am “damned entertaining.”

For those of you who can’t bear to listen to right-wing talk radio, over on Dragonfly TV, youngsters check out alligators in Florida, snakes in Minnesota and worms in California. Also: entomologist Betty Faber, who specializes in cockroaches.

GOP calls cloture on Way filibuster (2:42 pm)
Nicole Way has finally been excused from the stand, but not before Jenny Durkan managed to extract the following statement about the mail ballot report:

“Before the 95 were found, I did not know the number was inaccurate.”

The point is, even though she couldn’t get the necessary reports out of the ballot tracking software to verify the numbers, she did not know that they were wrong at the time. She just couldn’t verify them. Now criticize her for being sloppy, or making a bad decision if you want… but this is not “fraud.” Hope somebody was paying attention.

Anyway, while I’ve been providing my own snide coverage and Postman has been scratching his head to provide some straight, cogent analysis (yet another update featuring a judicial quip), TJ at Also Also once again dazzles us with his intelligence by actually writing a coherent summary of the morning session. Hey TJ… you think Way looks weary? You should see the bags under my eyes.

The court is now taking a brief recess, but over on Reading Rainbow, LeVar Burton visits a New Jersey amusement park. Also: Arnold Stang narrates the story of “Archibald Frisby.”

Blinded by science… (3:44 pm)
And apparently deafened as well. The Frye hearing has started in Wenatchee, in which Judge Bridges will eventually rule on the admissibility of the GOP’s proportional deduction methodology… not that I’d know, considering the TVW internet stream is down. I don’t have cable, but apparently they’re missing audio on cable too. Andrew over at NW Progressive tells me that TVW has a power outage at their retransmission facility in Olympia.

Fortunately, PBS Kids is experiencing no such problems. Postcards from Buster visits Hinesburg, VT, where Buster seeks a gift for Mother’s Day and is helped by Emma and Lily; he also attends a Christmas-tree bonfire.

Everything I need to know in life I learned from television (5:28 pm)
TVW finally got back on the air, not long before the court dismissed for the day. If you ask me, a sinister error like this is clear evidence of fraud, and I intend to prove it. I rest my case.

While I was out of the loop, David Postman filed several of his typically straight and cogent updates. Apparently, we did not have a Frye hearing, as Clark Bensen, the Republican statistical consultant (and no, I’m not missing an ” ‘s “) is testifying as a “fact witness,” not an “expert witness,” and thus he is not allowed to express any opinion. Good thing that’s not me — a judge barring me from expressing opinion would be a sure fire recipe for a contempt of court citation. Anyway, read what David wrote.

By the way, Bensen’s testimony… that was apparently the evidence of ballot stuffing that the Republicans promised us on Monday. Yeah… right.

Tomorrow morning the Democrats will cross-examine Bensen, and then most of the rest of the day will be spent on the Frye hearing, in which both sides will present their expert statistical witnesses. And if there’s time at the end of the day, the Democrats will make their motion to dismiss. The judge will deny the motion, and then on Friday, the Democrats start presenting their case.

As usual, this afternoon’s episode of Cyberchase serves as an apt metaphor for the day’s entire court proceedings: the Hacker kidnaps the king of a fractured- fairytale world and demands a ransom of golden eggs. Then the Wicked Witch casts a spell that takes away everyone’s ability to count, making it impossible for the fairy-tale folk to gather the required number of eggs until the kids help them learn the role of place value in the number system.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Comic relief (11:54 pm)
Andrew at NW Progressive has provided a clip of my latest appearance on the John Carlson Show. Listen to me not being taken seriously.


  1. 1

    John spews:

    Judge John Bridges just called a quick break to deal with a technical problem with the court reporter’s system.

    He told witness Nicole Way she could step down, but joked that she should not run off.

    “Even though I may want to run off with you,” he said.

    I like this Judge.

  2. 3

    Goldy spews:

    Notice how, like me, even the “straight, cogent” David Postman had no actual news to report after the first hour of testimony. Because there is no news to report.

  3. 4


    Goldy, come ON! What about the smoking gun?

    Korrell: “Did you believe Mr. Huennekens knew?”
    Way: “I thought he did.”

    that’s Gold, Jerry, GOLD!

  4. 6

    dj spews:

    for x = 1 to 100 do
    “What is the meaning of this number in column x”

    {sagging eyelids}

    Com’on Korrell, make her cry! Make her break down and confess that she and Fell got naked late at night and stuffed absentee ballots through the machines while making wild, passionate love on the floor of the KC elections office! I want a Perry Mason moment here!

  5. 7

    righton spews:

    Postman is smart, but hardly an independent observer. Well know as a liberal, pro-dem guy.

    Which reporter is unaffiliated?

  6. 8

    Scott spews:

    I’m still waiting for evidence of ballot stuffing. They are going to prove that right? Right? That’s what they have been saying on hate radio. Time’s running out you right wing punks. Time is running out so you better start proving something other than you know how to waste taxpayer money.

  7. 9

    righton spews:

    Money wasting started once Dems “elected” to challenge w/ a hand count. You could have accepted the first 2 counts and we’ll all be working now (or at least i would)

  8. 10

    Nindid spews:

    Righton @9 – I am always amazed at the right’s apparent ability to delude themselves into alternative realities, but really this type of attitude is so repugnant that I

    The hand recount is part of the process according to law. It is perhaps the most democratic portion of the entire election process. It made me proud to be an American watching citizens of both parties sitting down and mutually agreeing on ballots all across this state to come up with the best result possible from a close election. In your own twisted world maybe you believe all those Republicans were really traitors.

    But what really angers me is your contempt for the law and the mutually agreed upon process. It speaks for your contempt for true American values and democracy itself and I just pray that this brand of cynical, win at all costs attitude displayed by the right-wing in this country is stopped before you irreparably damage our republic.

  9. 11

    pbj spews:

    “Of course, the main purpose of her testimony is simply to recycle headlines of Fell’s faulty mail ballot report”

    Should be :

    “Of course, the main purpose of her testimony is simply to recycle headlines of Fell’s FRAUDULENT mail ballot report”

  10. 12

    DEK spews:

    I spent yesterday watching direct and cross of Huennekens. Today its Wray’s turn. I think both of these witnesses were responsive and knowledgable. If either did anything to help Rossi-I missed it-but what do I know, I’m just a retired attorney with 35 years in the courtroom. Mcguire’s attempts at impeachment were “foot shots” right in his own foot. Korrel tried it once with Wray and then got smart. What a waste of time!

  11. 14

    New LIBERAL - gimme most (hell, ALL) of your $$$$ spews:

    I just pray that this brand of cynical, win at all costs attitude displayed by the right-wing in this country is stopped before you irreparably damage our republic. -Comment by Nindid— 5/25/05 @ 12:03 pm


    As opposed to the win at all costs attitude displayed by the left?
    Hello, can anyone say Bill Clinton?
    Hillary and her multudinous “vast right wing conspiracy”?
    Dan Rather?
    John flipper Kerry?

  12. 15

    righton spews:

    Nimdid at 10.

    Wrongo babe. Democrats had to choose to ask for hand recount and choose to pay for this hand recount. It was no more “automatic” than the republicans choosing to go to court

    Count 1=auto
    count 2=auto
    Count 3 (hand one, voluntary)
    “round 4″ (court case, also voluntary, per the same LAW)

  13. 17

    New LIBERAL - gimme most (hell, ALL) of your $$$$ spews:

    I gotta wonder nimdud, if you even realize how incredibly delusional you sound… and please note: I graciously gave you the benefit of the doubt with sound, as opposed to are.

  14. 18


    righton @ 15
    where did he say it was “automatic?” He said “part of the process according to law.” And no one here that I’ve seen, including him, bears any procedural grudge against Rossi for contesting. Many of us think he’s foolishly wasting people’s time because he has no case, but it’s his full right to bring one.

    And FYI, if the machine recount had been the original recount (ie, within 50 votes), it’s my recollection that the hand recount would have ALSO ALSO been automatic.

    There is no doubt that a hand recount following a machine recount yields the best attempt at the true count. So I continue to be amused at the right’s whining about it.

  15. 20

    willie bill spews:


    Don’t forget that King co.’s election team’s biggest error was the improper processing of the so called “Phillips” votes. If they had done their job on those, the margin for count 1 would have been cut in half and Rossi would have lost count 2. Rossi would have asked for count three and lost 2 out of three including the only one that counts which is the last one.

  16. 21

    rwb spews:

    right on the very edge of delusion @ 15

    The dems chose to exercise their constitutional rights and requested a hand recount of an election that was/is a statistical tie (the repubs would have done the same had the shoe been on the other foot). The repubs did the same thing in challenging the election. (the dems may have done the exact same thing)
    Let the process run and let the courts decide and quite trying to blame someone else.

  17. 22

    righton spews:

    20, Yeah and if you’d stuffed all the ballots soon enough you wouldn’t even have a recount. Maria sure got off easier than Christie

  18. 23

    harry poon spews:

    I still think the best thing for the Dems to do is to hammer away at the issue of the voting machines that are programmed to vote for Repubs. This is such a huge fraud and no one will touch it. The battle is lost if you are too afraid to challenge this kind of criminal fraud.

  19. 25

    prr spews:


    “I just pray that this brand of cynical, win at all costs attitude displayed by the right-wing in this country is stopped before you irreparably damage our republic.”

    Did you mean to say left-wing?


  20. 26

    prr spews:

    Great quote…

    “Republican attorney Harry Korrell and Democratic attorney Jenny Durkan just argued about whether Republicans could enter into evidence a spreadsheet produced by a temporary worker under Nicole Way’s supervision.

    Durkan told the judge that Way, King County’s mail-ballot supervisor, could not say with certainty that the report is accurate, saying there could be math errors or input errors. Bridges allowed the evidence.

    He then said that if he applied Durkan’s accuracy test 100 percent of the time to exhibits in this case, “there’d be no evidence in this case.”

    He smiled, and everyone laughed.”

  21. 28


    prr, you’re misinterpreting the exchange. Durkan objected on the grounds of multiple levels of hearsay, since she didn’t compile the spreadsheet, and the person who did, didn’t do the data entry that fed the spreadsheet. She objected that it wasn’t an acceptable business record.

  22. 29

    prr spews:


    Bottom line, the entire court case is based on suspicions that King County Election has math issues.

    I don’t think there really is much room to misinterpret that, hence the laughter in the courtroom.

  23. 30

    windie spews:

    Nono, the whole case is based on the Reps trying to make the Dems look bad.

    They don’t really give a damn whether KC has math issues or not, as long as the Democrats look bad.

  24. 31


    prr @ 29
    I noticed when Durkan tried to ask Way about whether other counties had experienced similar problems, Rossi’s team immediately objected.

  25. 33

    BF spews:


    I have to give you credit, you are indeed very entertaining. I may not always agree with what you say, but I sure enjoy your posts.

  26. 34

    pbj spews:


    fraud Audio pronunciation of “fraud” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fr�d)

    1. A piece of trickery; a trick.
    1. One that defrauds; a cheat.
    2. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

    Signing a report that states “I certifiy under penalty of perjury that this is correct….” when one KNOWS it is not, is FRAUD.


    She has already admitted whe signed the report knowing the numbers were not as she reported them. Had she signed the report beleiving those numbers but later found them wrong, THAT would be faulty. But when she knowingly (as she has already admitted under oath) signs a report she knows to be fales, she is committing fraud.

  27. 35


    Funny, she just said in testimony that she had no way of knowing that the numbers were NOT as she reported them. She was asked by both counsel to clarify that response, and it was the same: at the time she filled out the form, she did not know the number was in fact wrong. Could she be sure it was right? No, she said–she acknowledged that she knew of problems getting the number. But to the best of her knowledge, the numbers were right.

    So thank you, there appears no fraud here.

  28. 36

    Erik spews:

    The court is now taking a brief recess, but over on Reading Rainbow, LeVar Burton visits a New Jersey amusement park. Also: Arnold Stang narrates the story of “Archibald Frisby.”

    It sounds as if you are watching one or more children at home and are forced to watch these shows.

    If you are watching these shows for your own pleasure what can we say but…..the Horror….the Horror!

  29. 37

    marks spews:

    windie @30

    Nono, the whole case is based on the Reps trying to make the Dems look bad.

    Too easy, but somebody has to say it:

    The Democrats do a fine job of looking bad even without the R’s unsolicited help…

  30. 38

    jsa on beacon hill spews:


    With the exception of Boobah, most of the above shows become tolerable after a while.

    Not as good as curling up with an art flick, but tolerable.

    I have explained to my daughters that watching Barney is verboten if I’m in the house.

    “Look at Barney’s jawline. He’s a carnivore for sure. Oh, yeah, he’s all nice and cuddly now, but one of these days, he’ll fall off the wagon, and I feel sorry for those poor children when that day comes.” (* shakes head *)

  31. 39

    Patrick spews:

    gimme (the only accurate part of your screen name) @ 14

    Helloooooo … Bill Clinton won TWO elections … Hillary was right, there IS a vast right-wing conspiracy … AND if Kerry is a flip flopper then Bush is a pinwheel by comparison.

  32. 41

    New LIBERAL - gimme most (hell, ALL) of your $$$$ spews:

    I still think the best thing for the Dems to do is to hammer away at the issue of the voting machines that are programmed to vote for Repubs. This is such a huge fraud and no one will touch it. The battle is lost if you are too afraid to challenge this kind of criminal fraud. -Comment by harry poon— 5/25/05 @ 1:19 pm

    YOOHOOO… as in Broward County, Florida, home of the Gore chad…
    Which party is it that BOUGHT those machines?
    Which party is is that dictates how the election criteria is programmed?
    Which party is it in control of the elections?

  33. 43

    Patrick spews:

    wrongheaded @ 27

    We’re gonna remind you that you said “I like this guy” after Bridges tosses Lossi Rossi’s lawsuit and you start attacking the judge.

  34. 44

    Patrick spews:

    prr @ 29

    The principal defect of the Republicans’ case is that it’s “based on suspicions that King County Election has math issues,” which is not legal grounds to set aside an election.

  35. 45

    Harry Poon spews:

    re: 41—- You’re an uninformed idiot with passionate, although totally incorrect, opinions. Go to and inform yourself. Hold a crucifix in front of the screen if you feel you need the protection.

  36. 46

    Patrick spews:

    Reply to 41

    No, dummy, he’s talking about Snohomish County, where Gregoire won the absentee vote (2/3 of the ballots) but Rossi inexplicably won the poll voting (1/3 of the ballots) by several thousand, and numerous voters reported problems with the touch-screen voting machines, including machines that changed Gregoire votes into Rossi votes.

  37. 47

    thehim spews:

    Hey righton,

    I just saw your comment from a previous thread about holding the Drinking Liberally events at more “blue collar” bar. Feel free to throw me some suggestions, I have no problem talking to Nick about rescheduling to a new location for a week.

  38. 54

    marks spews:


    It was entertaining (and intelligent) from my perspective. Naturally, I have a different entertainment threshold than others may have…

  39. 56

    thehim spews:

    thehim @ 51
    isn’t that the beginning of a Hendrix song?

    It might be. The next time I call Paul Allen to complain about how much beers cost at Qwest Field, I’ll ask him.

  40. 57

    David spews:

    thehim @ 51 asks: Hey Joe, how do you turn your name into a link?

    Instead of clicking on the “Comments” link at the bottom of a post, look over to the right side of the main page and click on one of the “recent posts:” — at the bottom there’s a place you can enter a URI with your comment.

    For example:

  41. 58

    spyder spews:

    Hey Joe is not a Hendrix song, no matter the Seattle bias. Here is brief early history–it is just about as important as this day in court on TVW.

    “Hey Joe”, a traditional song performed by many artists. Sometimes credited to Billy Roberts. Sometimes credited to Chet (or Chester) Powers a.k.a. Jesse Oris Farrow, née Dino Valente
    who became the lead singer of Quicksilver Messenger Service.
    In 1965 “Hey Joe” was recorded by The Leaves. In 1966 they recorded it again with a fuzztone guitar sound. Also the Surfaris, Byrds, Love, Shadows of Night, Warlocks and many other bands recorded the song in 1966. Tim Rose recorded “Hey Joe” in 1966, one month before the Leaves’ version entered the charts. Rose played the song at less than half the tempo. He changed the key of the song to E instead of A. Rose also roared out the verses, and added his own variant on their structure. Jimi Hendrix picked up this version of “Hey Joe” and made a European hit out of it in 1967. Since then many other great guitar players have performed this song.

    There was a great deal of LA band incest in the early to mid 60’s. The Sandals whose members helped form Quicksilver were friends of the Surfaris used the song while the Leaves morphing into the Byrds and BuffaloSpringfield played it a lot then as well. Best thing about growing up when i did was getting to see all these bands live in their heydays. For a long time Tim Rose took credit for both Hey Joe and Morning Dew, although it seems both, as well as so many other “folk songs” that received copyright attention, came from the Acadian traditional ballads of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Dylan copyrighted some of these as well.

  42. 59

    Goldy spews:

    Marks @54,

    Hey careful… if people think you find intelligent analysis to be entertaining, they might start thinking you’re one of us NPR-listening, commie L I B E R A L S.

    TJ @55,

    If you’re going to insist on being entertaining, I’m going to have to start being intelligent.

  43. 62


    Sweet. And Righton, my earlier comment is getting buried, so I’ll mention again. If you want to email me with a suggestion for a good blue collar bar to move Drinking Liberally to, my email link on the right side of the page.

  44. 63

    marks spews:


    No need to worry about me. I have a bit of a different take on a number of things, but you commie NPR “L” types have that sector covered well enough.

  45. 65

    New LIBERAL - gimme most (hell, ALL) of your $$$$ spews:

    So, are you girls getting a bit tired of hearing
    “OVERRULED this fine afternoon?

  46. 66

    Erik spews:

    This judge has got great lines:

    Judge Bridges allowed the introduction of a report Bensen did compiling voting records from King County. The report compares vote totals in the governor’s race with discrepancies between the number of ballots cast and the number of voters shown as having cast ballots.

    But Bridges will carefully watch Bensen, who he said “is walking a very fine line between a lay witness and an expert witness.”

    “The saying is ‘trying to lick honey from the edge of a razor blade,’ I think,” Bridges said.

  47. 67


    Damn, is that from Postman? What’s the point of listening to the whole trial, if the MSM steals all the great lines and prints them first? :mad:

  48. 68


    I think Stefan is right now trying to lick honey off a razor blade, just to prove that the judge is exaggerating how hard it is to do…

  49. 71

    Nindid spews:

    /troll-snark on/ Oh sure Goldy, go off and talk about the elections and ignore the biggest news of the day! According to FBI docs the Koran was flushed… when are you going to blog about that?!? Now what do all you liberal pinheads think of that!/troll-snark off/

  50. 77

    righton spews:

    thehim at 69

    I gotta wimp out and fail on the bar thing. I had a political jab; which was to say you guys are live in Fremont and frequent fun, slightly shabby, hip bars and not “common man” bars. but I cannot think of a closeby bar that would resemble common man? lake city way (yipes), 99 north of greenlake? double yipes. Anywhere in Kent or Burien or Monroe i guess would do.

    More politically, thought you’d wanna go to some strip mall bar in Issaquah or Sammamish (nothing scary except you might get lost or run out of gas) and hang w/ the red state folks.

    Thanks for the invite. My hall pass got revoked a while back; i drink my six pack 1 beer a night at home.

  51. 78

    zapporo spews:

    Hey Goldy – Grab the ice cubes from the fridge and see how many you can stick to your tongue.

    It’s loads more fun than what you experienced today.

  52. 80


    Did anyone count [if they could stay awake] how many times the judge has said over ruled in the past three days?
    Isn’t hollywood amazing…they really are. Anyone that could make being a lawyer or trials in general seem exciting and glamorous really has alot of talent.LOL.
    Even Paul Berendt fell asleep……..

  53. 81

    RonK, Seattle spews:

    All these comments and NOTHING about the BIG BINDER? I pegged the case as dead and buried weeks ago, but I’ve gotten into the habit of tuning in just to get a glimpse of the BIG BINDER.

    And if there’s no BIG BINDER, only one conclusion is possible: Cynical is a FRAUD! FRAUD I say! FRAUD!!!!!

  54. 83

    thehim spews:

    Well don’t buy beer at QWest Field, then. Buy it at Safeway and smuggle it in.

    Do you own Safeway stock or something? :)

    Actually, I’ve been a season ticket holder for a couple of years, and I’d usually bring a flask. Although they’re getting a little more serious about cracking down. I’ll probably only do one or two games this year, and only brandish the flask in the safety of a bathroom stall.

  55. 84

    thehim spews:

    I gotta wimp out and fail on the bar thing. I had a political jab; which was to say you guys are live in Fremont and frequent fun, slightly shabby, hip bars and not “common man” bars. but I cannot think of a closeby bar that would resemble common man? lake city way (yipes), 99 north of greenlake? double yipes. Anywhere in Kent or Burien or Monroe i guess would do.

    A couple bars that fit the common man mold in Seattle that I can think of are Leny’s (on 56th St not far from Green Lake), the Eastlake Zoo, the Little Red Hen (Green Lake), The NiteLite (Belltown), the 5th St Alehouse (Maple Leaf) and the Nine Pound Hammer (Georgetown). Leny’s was a common hangout for my roommate and me when we lived near there.

    More politically, thought you’d wanna go to some strip mall bar in Issaquah or Sammamish (nothing scary except you might get lost or run out of gas) and hang w/ the red state folks.

    I don’t know if you saw my post on the other thread, but my co-workers and I used to do our Happy Hours at the Mustard Seed Too in the Bellevue Crossroads shopping center. With my co-workers hailing from places like Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, France, and Serbia, it was about as “red state” as we wanted to go, but it was still a pretty “common man” bar for Bellevue (although after they put in flat-screens last year, their “common man” cred took a hit). It was actually not a problem though. We’d even get pretty loud and pretty political. If people were put out, they didn’t say anything, and the owners loved us, because we were regulars.

    Thanks for the invite. My hall pass got revoked a while back; i drink my six pack 1 beer a night at home.

    No worries. I probably would have gotten some blowback from the others trying to move it for just one week, but it would have been fun. I actually prefer to hang out at common man bars, but we decided early on that having it in a smoky place would turn away a lot of people who would otherwise come by. Oh well.

  56. 85

    Harry Poon spews:

    Are things really as bad as I think they are ? I’ve really had it up to my eyeballs with these damn Republicans. Is the majority leader of the Senate really kissing the ass of a certifiable lunatic and religeous nutcase like James Dobson? Is a crazy, chemically damaged bug exterminator who goes to the fleshpots of the Orient to do personal research on “child pornography” really the head honcho in the House of Representatives? And where’s the news edia while all this is going on? You’d think they would be all over this Jeff Gannon thing. But maybe it’s really not all that unusual in their world.

  57. 86

    Donnageddon spews:

    RonK @ 80 “And if there’s no BIG BINDER, only one conclusion is possible: Cynical is a FRAUD! FRAUD I say! FRAUD!!!!!”

    Amen to that. But will that stop Mr. C?

    Hell no. Neo-cons have no sense of shame.

  58. 87

    righton spews:

    Mustard seed, yipes, you were slumming it.

    I think you all should drink by a bowling alley; that would be a better faux GOP setting or old time Demo setting than the Eastlake Zoo (wouldn’t have tagged that as neo-redneck in a million years).

    wonder where the rossi supporters go drinking? QFC? Larrys?

    (plenty of bellevue and mercer island jokes to follow)

  59. 88

    righton spews:

    donna baby at 84.
    Many jews regard use of “neo-con” as thinly veiled anti semitism. Are you pro PLO?

  60. 89

    Donnageddon spews:

    Wrongo @ 86 said with bile dripping from his malformed lips “Many jews regard use of “neo-con” as thinly veiled anti semitism. Are you pro PLO?”

    1st. “Many jews regard…” They use this same line on FAUX news all the time “Many have said…” You are full of shit.

    2nd “Are you pro PLO?” No sequitor, but the answer is no. I am pro peace. BTW you are full of shit.

    Nice try.

  61. 91

    Donnageddon spews:

    Wrong @ 88

    A conservative is someone who favors fiscal responsibilty (in their own way) A Neo-con favors exploding deficits (to be paid by the offspring of the disappearing middle class) and ever expanding government desigend to funnel more and more tax money to corporations, and to delete the influence of “the common man” that they pretend to love. And use faith and nationalism to keep the “common man” drunk, bedazzled, fearfull and angry.

    I.e. Fascism.

  62. 92

    righton spews:

    Got it, nothing very well thought out in that.

    Would be like me calling Kerry or Dean pinko commies, just cuz they are liberal democrats. You’ve made it a perjorative, in the same way you denigrate religion, patriotism, etc.

    and i gotta ask, How are the neo-cons keeping the common man drunk?

  63. 93

    Donnageddon spews:

    Wrongo @ 90 ” You’ve made it a perjorative, in the same way you denigrate religion, patriotism, etc.”

    Examples please? You have made a claim, back it up!

    “and i gotta ask, How are the neo-cons keeping the common man drunk?”

    It is something they spiked the Kool Aid with.

  64. 94

    Donnageddon spews:

    Wrongo, I will make it easier for you. We will skip the “etc.” I willfully admit to denigrating etc. every chance I get.

    But you claimed I denigrate

    1 Religion
    2 Patriotism

    Provide examples or apologise.

  65. 95

    righton spews:

    Hey babe, your words not mine,
    “And use faith and nationalism to keep the “common man” drunk, bedazzled, fearfull and angry.

    I.e. Fascism.

  66. 96

    dj spews:

    Donnageddon @ 89

    Nice definition, even if a little over the top. Here is a definition from wikipedia.

    “Neoconservatism is a somewhat controversial term referring to the political goals and ideology of the “new conservatives” in the United States.

    Compared to other U.S. conservatives, neoconservatives may be characterized by an aggressive moralist stance on foreign policy, a lesser social conservatism, weaker dedication to a policy of minimal government, and a greater acceptance of the welfare state.

    Neoconservatism is a controversial term whose meaning is widely disputed. Most people described as “neoconservatives” are members of the Republican Party. The term is used more often by those who oppose “neoconservative” politics than those who subscribe to them; indeed, many to whom the label is applied reject it. The term is frequently used pejoratively, both by self-described paleoconservatives, who oppose neoconservatism from the right, and by Democratic politicians opposing neoconservatives from the left. Recently, Democratic politicians have used the term to criticize the Republican policies and leaders of the George W. Bush administration.

    In academia, the term refers more to journalists, pundits, policy analysts, and institutions affiliated with the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) and with Commentary and The Weekly Standard than to more traditional conservative policy think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation or periodicals such as Policy Review or National Review. The neoconservatives, often dubbed the neocons by supporters and critics alike, are credited with or blamed for influencing U.S. foreign policy, especially under the administrations of Ronald Reagan (1981–1989) and George W. Bush (2001–present). Neoconservatives have often been singled out for criticism by opponents of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, many of whom see this invasion as a neoconservative initiative.”

  67. 97

    dj spews:

    ummmm righton @ 93,

    You claim that Donnageddon denigrates religion and patriotism by citing his statement:

    “And use faith and nationalism to keep the “common man” drunk, bedazzled, fearfull and angry.”

    That is not a criticism of religion and patriotism. That is a criticism of the assholes who abuse religion and patriotism for their political goals. Big difference!

  68. 98

    Donnageddon spews:

    Wrongo @ 93 “Hey babe, your words not mine,
    “And use faith and nationalism to keep the �common man� drunk, bedazzled, fearfull and angry.

    I.e. Fascism.”

    How does this denigrate patriotism or religion? Are you drunk?

  69. 99

    righton spews:

    The term is frequently used pejoratively (like i said)

    Aside from using it mostly on Wolfowitz, Perle and other prominent conservative jews; i think its also used to describe younger conservatives who don’t give a rip about abortion. Just money and guns.

  70. 100

    Donnageddon spews:

    dj @ 94 thanks for the wikipedia definition. wikipedia fascinates me. It seems to be fairly orderly and informative. I am just amazed it is not abused, and resulting in “edit” flame wars.

    Good stuff!

  71. 101

    Donnageddon spews:

    Wrongo… apology? C’mon man you can do it! I never denigrated religion or patriotism.

    Just say it guy!

  72. 102

    dj spews:

    Donnageddon @ 98,

    Indeed, it is remarkable! I was initially skeptical that anything useful would ever materialize from the project. Now I find it extremely useful.

  73. 103

    David spews:

    righton @ 88, this is not the first time you have dangled the bait, “Many jews regard use of “neo-con” as thinly veiled anti semitism.” Exact same phrasing, even. Now I’m starting to think you are trolling, pure and simple.

    Don @ 89 and dj/wikipedia @ 96 have it right: You are spouting a bunch of bullsh*t. The label “neo-con” or “neocon” applies to people of a particular political stripe or ideology, who seem to be having a lot of success getting their views turned into policy these days. Policies like invading Iraq to rebuild the Middle East, and using deficits to finance big government.

    There’s nothing anti-Semitic about using the term “neocon.” (N.B. I should know; I’m Jewish.) The only anti-Semitism I see here comes from the people (including lots in the Arab media) trying to demonize the Jews by portraying neoconservatism as a Jewish-controlled movement or plot. Never mind that your prominent leaders of the neocon movement, like Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld and Michael Novak, are not Jewish. Facts aren’t supposed to get in the way of ideology.

    On second thought, maybe you’re not trolling…maybe you’re just naively and uncritically buying into anti-Semitic propaganda. Hmm…

  74. 104

    David spews:

    And then you’ve got your “theo-cons,” who tack on a radical right-wing evangelical religious agenda: breaking down the church-state barrier and making our government Christian [under their brand of Christianity], banning abortion, shunning gays, dumping the teaching of evolution, etc. …and claiming God’s will as justification for wielding political power.

  75. 105

    David spews:

    righton, it would be closer to the truth to say that many Jews regard use of “neo-con” to refer only to Jewish neo-cons, in particular where it is used to imply Jewish control of the U.S. government, as thinly veiled anti-Semitism. Clear now?

  76. 106

    torridjoe spews:

    it’s wrong to suggest a pernicious Jewish cabal, but it’s undeniable that the primary progenitors of the neocon movement are both Jewish, and see support of Israel no matter what as the linchpin of Middle East policy. Dick Cheney may be pushing the neocon principles from his position of power, but the theoretical authors of the current doctrine are in fact primarily Wolfowitz and Perle, and if you had to pick one organization that has been most influential in serving those goals, it’s AIPAC.

  77. 107

    Patrick spews:

    Comment on 9

    Next time a Republican is trailing in a close contest and your party asks for a recount, we’ll remind you that you “could” accept the result of the (flawed) machine count.

    But I’ll bet you won’t.

  78. 109

    Patrick spews:

    Reply to 92

    The difference is the phrase “neo-conservatives” was coined by the neo-conservatives, and is what they call themselves.

    Neo-conservative is as far removed as it is possible to get from what we think of as Republican conservatives. In a logical world, neocons and conservatives would be arch enemies.

    Contemporary American neo-conservativism descended to us from the teachings of University of Chicago economics professor Leo Strauss. (It then descended into the gutter from the teachings of Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, and others.) It is a derivative of Trotskyite Leninism. The ranks of neocon opinion leaders and power brokers are loaded with ex-leftists of the sixties and seventies. It was a good career move for these folks. At some point, they figured out that communism would never catch on in the U.S. but fascism might, and fascists get paid better than commies.

    Because their ideology descended from a totalitarian progenitor, it’s not surprising that neocons are totalitarians opposed to democracy. They don’t believe in free speech, honest elections, due process of law, or truth. They believe in (a) imposing their will on others and (b) putting themselves at the top of the heap. They believe in bullying and intimidation, or whatever else works to get and keep power. They believe in unbridled power — as long as it’s in their hands. They believe in military conquest and subjugating other peoples. Religion, communications, wealth and corporate power — all are merely tools toward these ends.

    Now you tell me, “righton,” why did Republican conservatives let these commies take over the GOP? Why aren’t real conservatives doing something about it? Like kicking them out of what used to be their party and — while they’re at it — kicking them out of what used to be our country?

  79. 110

    Patrick spews:

    By the why, “righton,” would you be surprised to learn that the two principal architects of neocon foreign policy — Wolfowitz and Feith — are both citizens of Israeli? That’s right, Wolfie and Feith are dual U.S.-Israeli citizens. Does that help you understand Bush’s foreign policy better?

  80. 111

    harry poon spews:

    Saying that the term neocon is anti Jewish is like saying that criticism of right wing Evangelical Christianity means the criticizer is a “Christian hater.” Only Stupid people and Republicans could possibly believe this to be true.

  81. 113

    David spews:

    re: torridjoe @ 106 and Patrick @ 110:

    Not to deny that there are Jewish neocons, and that some of the leaders of the movement are Jewish, but if you think that Wolfowitz, Feith and Perle are the “principal architects” of our foreign policy, you’ve been subtly bamboozled. How the heck did these guys, these Pentagon deputies, supposedly capture our government? Oh, yeah, maybe it’s relevant that their bosses—Vice Prez Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld—are also members and founders of the neocons’ think tank, the Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

    Other influential PNAC members include John Bolton (now, where have we heard that name?), Jeb Bush (FL gov., President’s brother), William Bennett (author of “Why We Fight”) and Steve Forbes (publisher, has more money than you).

    None of them are Jews—but we’ve been conditioned to focus on the midlevel officials who are Jewish. (Don’t look at Cheney; focus on Lewis Libby! Don’t look at Rumsfeld; focus on Wolfowitz, Feith and Perle! Don’t look at Bush; focus on Elliot Abrams!). These Jewish neocons were hired because their bosses are also neocons who share the same goals.

  82. 114

    Donnageddon spews:

    Wrongo @ 112 “Dunno, just lots of anti-semitism creeping into the left, disguised as anti-israel.”

    Dunno, seems like most neo-cons, you are making stuff up.

  83. 115

    New LIBERAL - gimme most (hell, ALL) of your $$$$ spews:

    Wikipedia is a joke – anyone can contribute anything at anytime – of course it’s liberal nirvana in the tradition of their “living breathing” ‘mean-whatever-you-want-it-to-mean-in-the-expediancy-of-the-moment’ constitution:

    Wikipedia: free, open content, community-built encyclopedia with thousands of articles on topics from A to Z.

    What a bunch of yahoos you are.

  84. 116


    David @ 113
    It’s my understanding that the first plan floated in the US government to invade Iraq and topple Saddam was written by Wolfowitz in 1991, after the first Gulf War. It was received utterly derisively, including by Bush’s father.

    The son has embraced that original document, almost to the letter, in his actions. And his public expectations about what would happen when we did it, also come from that document.

  85. 117

    David spews:

    torridjoe @ 116: Without checking the facts, I think that you’re probably correct. Wolfowitz was the original author, a dozen or so years ago, of the ideas that have been taken up by this administration, with its neocon ideologues.