Christian right made a deal with the Devil on R-65

From the No Shit Sherlock Department, the Christian right has apparently discovered that initiative monger Tim Eyman is a liar.

Gary Randall and Joe Fuiten of the Faith and Freedom Network have posted a detailed chronology of their tortured relationship with Eyman during the Referendum 65 signature drive, and the Mukilteo watch salesman doesn’t come off looking so good. The final blow to FFN was Eyman’s refusal to share the petitions, and his arrogant posturing that he was merely protecting the signers’ privacy. Here are a few of the key excerpts:

Tim Eyman has a demonstrated penchant for not telling the whole truth.

Tim has not been truthful in his telling of the story.

Eyman’s explanation … cannot be true,

He is just making up that completely fabricated charge…

Joe Fuiten … has tried to get Tim Eyman to honor the agreement he made with FFN. Eyman has not been willing to do so…

Of course the real reason Eyman won’t share the signatures is that he doesn’t want anybody to know how few he really collected… which I’m guessing is less than half the 105,000 claimed. If that’s not the case then Timmy shouldn’t have any problem letting a reporter go in there and count the signatures for himself. Yeah, like that’s gonna happen.

Of course, FFN’s chronology shows Fuiten and Randall to be pretty cynical themselves. Consider this passage:

On the first day that petitions were available for Referendum 65, Faith and Freedom published petitions. The FFN Referendum petitions had the FFN name on them as a return address and avoided the controversial titles of the Eyman version. Eyman’s version said “no quotas” even though there was nothing about quotas in the bill and the phrase alienated African American leaders. Eyman’s version was also titled “no gay marriage” even though the bill was only very obliquely related to gay marriage. FFN was concerned that the misleading titles might be used by opponents in a legal challenge to overturn the Referendum as they have done to other Eyman initiatives. FFN printed thousands of their version of the Referendum petition but without the questionable titles and without Eyman’s name attached. Eyman was upset and wanted all the petitions to come through his office and to bear only his name. In conversations that first weekend, Tim Eyman and FFN agreed that if FFN would withdraw its petitions, Tim Eyman would give copies of all petitions that came in to FFN. It was a simple agreement. That was the full agreement. There were no other conditions to it.

So what they’re telling us is that they knew the headlines on Eyman’s petitions were “misleading” (i.e. lies) but that their primary concern was that this might be used as legal grounds to overturn the referendum. And despite being fully cognizant of this blatant dishonesty, they cut a deal with Eyman anyway, knowingly permitting misleading petitions to be distributed in their churches.

During the whole “Referendum Sunday” spat I had strongly criticized ministers for repeating Eyman’s lies from the pulpit, suggesting that there might be a Commandment against that. Now it seems clear that Fuiten and Randall at least tacitly endorsed such lies.

As far as I’m concerned, when you deal with the Devil you get what you deserve.


  1. 1

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Hey Goldy – When you actually have an impact that’s even a fraction of Tim’s, then you can give him crap. Tim has saved The Producers BILLIONS of dollar that would have gone down the rathole of gummint spending. When you get a billion or two under your belt, get back to me. Until then, shut the fuck up.

  2. 2

    Goldy spews:

    MTR @1,

    So lets just take your premise unchallenged — that I’ve got nothing to say worth listening to. So… what does that say about you, and the immense amount of time you spend here reading me, and commenting in my threads?

    Just curious.

  3. 3

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    I come here to study the disease (or religion?) of librulism so we can send it to the shitcan of history.

  4. 4

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Goldy, c’mon… you’d LOVE to have even 1% of the political impact that Tim has. You just can’t fucking stand it that he’s infinitely more successful than you are. Every year Tim gets something major done. And along the way he’s able to expose the librul bias of the media and the kook activist judges in our courts.

  5. 5

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    What does Tim Eyman “produce,” Mark? Seriously, what has Timmy ever added to humanity’s material possessions? What do YOU “produce” besides hot air?

  6. 6

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    God doesn’t want these people to keep their money. God doesn’t want R-65 to succeed. Eyman isn’t going to Heaven.

  7. 7

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Eyman has given The Producers a voice. He allows us to shout down the special interests who go to gummint to rob us. Gary Locke toed the line because he knew if he stepped over it he’d get slapped back into place. It forced him to govern responsibly. He has allowed The Producers to keep BILLIONS of THEIR DOLLARS in THEIR POCKETS to do with as they wish instead of wasting them on another stoopid ineffective and wasteful gummint program.

    The stuff I do is WAY over your head wabbit. You’d never understand it….

  8. 8

    dj spews:

    Mark the Thieving Redneck.

    What are you doing here. Have you made good on your bet with Goldy? As I recall, you acknowledged making the $100 bet and losing. But you haven’t made good on it yet.

    You are a fucking thief. Go the fuck away you piece of shit.

  9. 9

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Let’s talk about a topic near-and-dear to Mark the Non-Producer’s black heart*: Liberalism, and its contributions to our society.

    (*Mark doesn’t have a heart. There’s a black hole where the heart normally would be.)

    LIBERALS gave us the Constitution and Bill of Rights, free speech, free press, freedom of religion, and due process of law.

    WINGFUCKS like Mark the Non-Producer think critics of rightwing politicians and dissenters against imperialist warwongering should be jailed. They want to use the public schools to force-feed their religion to other people’s children. They fervently believe the media should publish only their rightwing propaganda. They have no problem with the attorney general spying on the medical, financial, employment, school, and library records of their political opponents. They support arresting American citizens without charges, imprisoning them without trial, and denying them access to a lawyer and the right to defend themselves. They see nothing wrong with U.S. troops torturing, raping, and murdering innocent foreigners whose lands they have invaded — but they believe anyone who reports or reveals such atrocities should be hanged. They howl about the constitutional rights of white supremacists, neo-Nazis, bank robbers, and psychos being violated if somebody thinks it’s a bad idea to let such people own military weapons and scream about abortion being “murder,” but they want to bomb every Middle Eastern village and kill every “towel head” (including the women and children) who dares to have a skin color or religion different from theirs.

    LIBERALS gave us the 40-hour work week, overtime pay, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws, injured workers benefits, unemployment insurance, collective bargaining rights, the G.I. Bill and veterans benefits, and Social Security and Medicare.

    WINGFUCKS like Mark the Non-Producer oppose minimum wage laws, overtime pay, and unemployment benefits for the involunatrily unemployed. They oppose safety regulations, benefits for injured workers, and Social Security. They want to expand “right to Trust Fund to get money for buying stocks. They screech “support the troops!” but eliminate combat pay, refuse to buy armor for troops in harm’s way, and cut veterans’ benefits. They have no problem with the fact that of more than 286,000 former uranium workers suffering from occupational illnesses who claimed benefits approved by Congress, only 1 has received benefits. Wingfucks whine about paying taxes for “welfare” but support spending for corporate welfare that amounts to 5 times as much as the food, housing, medical, and financial assistance provided to individuals (mostly young children) — but want someone else to pay taxes for it. They think it should be illegal for senior citizens to buy lower-cost drugs in Canada or use group purchasing power to bargain for lower drug prices. When they run the government, energy policy is written in secret by energy industry lobbyists, then they blame liberals for the resulting high prices for electricity, heating oil, natural gas, and gasoline.

    LIBERALS gave us free public education, the cornerstone of our democracy and economic prosperity.

    WINGFUCKS like Mark the Non-Producer sneer at science, humanities, literature, and education in general. They want to undermine the public schools by diverting public education funding to private schools with no accountability for how the funds are spent, what the children are taught, or whether they learn.

    LIBERALS gave us consumer protection laws, public health programs, and environmental laws that cleaned up the air we breathe and the water we drink.

    WINGFUCKS like Mark the Non-Producer want to eliminate laws that protect consumers against predatory business that sell dangerous products, lie in their advertising, and scam their customers. They don’t think people hurt or robbed by medical quacks, dishonest businessmen, or careless jerks should have a right to sue for redress. They support politicians who slashed funding for federal meat inspection and want meat inspectors to be employed by the companies whose meat they inspect, with their wages paid for by taxpayer-financed subsidies to those companies. They weakened the Clean Air and Clean Water acts, slashed funding for toxic cleanups and shifted cleanup costs from polluters to taxpayers, and ordered the EPA to suppress information about toxic air at the WTC disaster site and disregard evidence of global warming. Wingfucks support clear cutting public forests, giving away public grazing lands, letting miners and drillers tear up national parks and publicly owned wilderness lands, and want to the eliminate Endangered Species Act. They have no problem with the Bush administration’s manipulation of scientific data for political purposes. They don’t think environmental destruction is a problem we need to worry about because the end of the world is coming soon anyway.

    Who votes for Bush?

    * Ignorant, uneducated people who are uninformed about issues.

    * Ultra-nationalist militarists who wrap themselves in the flag and the mantle of patriotism as an excuse to kill and pillage in other peoples’ countries.

    * Religious zealots who are intolerant of other beliefs or cultures, oppose separation of church and state, want to replace our religion-neutral government with a theocracy, and have an eliminationist view of religious and cultural diversity and tolerance.

    * People who want to arm the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nations, and other extremist hate groups with military assault weapons.

    * Crooked CEOs who steal from their employees and retirees, from their shareholders, and from the general public who want a “Get Out of Jail Free” card.

    * People with no sense of personal responsibility who need hate objects to blame for their miserable failed lives, and use liberals, minorities, gays, foreigners, and other religions and cultures for this purpose.

    * People who delude themselves into believing that if they suck up to the greediest and most ruthless members of the human species, the latter will share some of their wealth and power with them.

  10. 10

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Eyman … allows us to shout down the special interests who go to gummint to rob us.” Commentby Mark The Redneck Kennedy— 6/18/06@ 10:29 am


    You mean the guys shoveling our money out of pickups into duffel bags held open by private contractors?

    You mean cabinet secretaries hijacking taxpayer-owned airplanes for their personal transportation?

    You mean the hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer money given away in direct subsidies to giant corporations?

  11. 11

    REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX] spews:

    Georgia’s July 18 primary elections are less than a month away and still the state’s voter ID cards haven’t been issued. The state Board of Elections on Monday is expected to approve final rules governing the state’s new photo voter IDs. […….Funny how IDs for welfare and food stamps can be done quickly, but Democrat controlled cities and counties seem to have outrageous problems with voter ID. “Why, I think this is just toooooo big a problem to handle, so maybe we’ll just do without the IDs.” [hehe………JCH]

  12. 12

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Redneck, why doesn’t Eyman do something useful, like pass an initiative that prohibits lying politicians from wasting a trillion dollars on a losing imperalist war?

  13. 13

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “The stuff I do is WAY over your head wabbit.” Commentby Mark The Redneck Kennedy— 6/18/06@ 10:29 am

    FUN-NEEEEE!!! You are the dumbest fuck walking erect on two hind legs, with the possible exceptions of Dufus and sillyguy (click here for photo of sillyguy: )

  14. 14

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Redfuck, I’ll give you this much — FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS is way over my head! Most people get out of their sexual mistakes for a lot less than that. You must have had R. Pope representing you.

  15. 16

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican
    A TvNewsLIES Reader contribution.
    By John Gray Cincinnati, Ohio

    Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

    All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer’s medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

    Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

    Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

    Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

    Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

    Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

    He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

    He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.

  16. 17

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Wabbit – It’s true isn’t it… to be a librul, you have to believe that freedom comes from gummint, and oppression comes from corporations.

    You really don’t understand how wealth is created do you? That’s why you’re poor and always will be.

  17. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Subject: I’M A U S MARINE
    Date: 2/14/04 7:19 AM Pacific Standard Time
    From: PMNKS4
    MsgId: <>

    I am a United States Marine. When my buddies and I read some of these posts we see a great deal of anger. Towards President Bush for what some see as his hypocrisy of sending men and women to war, while avoiding his chance to fight in one. Towards Senator Kerry for fighting in a war then coming home and protesting it vehemently while others were still in combat. It does not matter what we think. We’ve got a job to do and commitments we will carry out. What we would like to see is less anger and greater acceptance of differing opinions. It will come down to a Presidential Election in November, 2004. When the time comes please vote. That’s what we’re really fighting for. The ideal that every man and every woman may have a voice. That we need not agree on everything, but we may still respect one another. We believe that we are supported by those both for and against this war. That’s a start. Please also show more kindness and understanding towards one another. These posts seem like constant attacks at times. I just do not believe that this is what this country of ours is all about. It’s about the right to be different, to freely express those differences without being the subject of abuse. I just love this country as I know many of you do. God Bless America and the Corps and thanks for your time.

    Dear PMNKS4,

    Thank you for serving our country, and for your post.

    There is something I would like to explain. In 1948, Richard Nixon circulated his infamous “pink sheet” against Helen Gahagan Douglas. In the 1950’s Joe McCarthy attacked liberals with his “Red Scare” tactics and dramatically waved “lists of communists” for the TV cameras (they were actually blank sheets of paper). In the 1960’s Richard Nixon sicced the FBI on dissenters and pulled off his “dirty tricks” such as the Plumbers Unit and Watergate burglary.

    In 1988, Newt Gingrich told Republicans that politics is “civil war” and in 1994 Gingrich urged Republicans to demonize Democrats by calling them names like ‘sick,’ ‘grotesque,’ ‘loony,’ ‘stupid,’ ‘corrupt,’ ‘anti-family,’ and ‘traitors.’ In 2003, Ann Coulter wrote an anti-liberal tract she entitled “Treason.”

    We liberals took it for a long time. But allowing ourselves to be kicked just brought more kicks.

    We’ve decided to fight back. We quit taking it and began dishing it back. When they stop, we’ll stop, and not until then. As a Marine, I’m sure you understand the principle: No free kicks.

    Signed, a Proud Liberal and Vietnam Veteran

  18. 19

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    From a letter-to-the-editor in a newspaper:

    “We all live in a liberal democracy in which, ironically, the word liberal is being distorted and made negative. If one looks up the word ‘liberal’ in the dictionary, one will find defining words such as: freedom of individuals, representational form of government, tending to give freely, generous, tolerant of ideas or behaviors of others. Which of these thoughts do you find offensive? Which of these would you like to have taken away from you, or your neighbor, or your country?”

  19. 20

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Thanks to the liberals:

    If your workplace is safe; if your children go to school rather than being forced into labor; if you are paid a living wage, including overtime; if you enjoy a 40-hour week and you are allowed to join a union to protect your rights — you can thank liberals. If your food is not poisoned and your water is drinkable — you can thank liberals. If your parents are eligible for Medicare and Social Security, so they can grow old in dignity without bankrupting your family — you can thank liberals. If our rivers are getting cleaner and our air isn’t black with pollution; if our wilderness is protected and our countryside is still green — you can thank liberals. If people of all races can share the same public facilities; if everyone has the right to vote; if couples fall in love and marry regardless of race; if we have finally begun to transcend a segregated society — you can thank liberals. Progressive innovations like those and so many others were achieved by long, difficult struggles against entrenched power. What defined conservatism, and conservatives, was their opposition to every one of those advances. The country we know and love today was built by those victories for liberalism — with the support of the American people. — Joe Conason, writer for

  20. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The American Liberal Creed

    Liberals recognize the value and rights of all people;
    Liberals recognize that we share the world with others;
    Liberals support the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights
    and champion their equal application to all citizens;
    Liberals champion knowledge above ignorance, learning above dogma;
    Liberals recognize that the concept of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
    is futile without education, healthcare and employment;
    Liberals recognize that government of the people, by the people, and
    for the people is for the service and protection of all, regardless of economic status;
    Liberals recognize that public works and institutions serve the public interest, and taxes support those works and institutions;
    Liberals recognize that “every person for themselves” leads not to a diverse,
    enlightened and viable society, but only to jungle-like “survival of the fittest”;
    Liberals recognize that an individual, not government, controls their own
    Liberals recognize that neither government nor commerce is suitable to meet all
    of our nation’s challenges, that there is a place for both;
    Liberals propagate this message, defend it, and vote for and support those who do.

    © Warren Brown

  21. 22

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    … is when Republican businessmen threaten to close their plants and move the jobs to Mexico unless the government pays their workers’ wages.

  22. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    And their wives are bitches. And their kids probably sell drugs on street corners for spending cash. They are ineffectual and ambulance chasers and they hate America. They have a subversive plot to destroy the country because…ok, I can never quite figure that one out, but dammit, I know they must be really really BAD people who are out to destroy American families. They have BAD values. I am not real clear what those BAD VALUES are, but I know they have them. They are BAD.

    And I know that because my Republican leadership tells me so. They HAVE to be really REALLY AWFUL so that my Republican leaders can make George W. Bush and Dick Cheney look good by comparison. Since my Republican leaders will not tell me why I should vote for Bush or Cheney, just why I shouldn’t vote for Kerry/Edwards, I have to go on the theory that Kerry and Edwards are actually the reincarnation of evil divided into two bodies to fool the American public. And I also know that anybody that supports them is LIBERAL!! HOLY JESUS!! RUN!! RUN AWAY(or shoot them. Maybe we should just shoot all the liberals) !!! THE LIBERALS ARE COMING!! And we all know that LIBERALS are all out to destroy American families, too. And why do they want to destroy American families?? Because they have BAD VALUES!! I know this because the word LIBERAL means something horrible and evil and BAD. And…you guessed it…I know this because my Republican leadership told me so.

    Do you know what those horrible, stinking LIBERALS want to do??? They want to make it so that anybody that works hard can afford a higher education. Bastards. They want to insure that the only reason we go to war and kill a thousand of the bravest people in our country is because we have PROOF that the country we are attacking is a clear and present danger. Pussies. Don’t they know that its good enough to really strongly suspect that there might be a danger?? Hey, isn’t that what a pre-emptive strike is all about?? Stinking LIBERALS want to make sure that their children are not left with trillions of dollars of budget deficit to pay off. HA! Don’t they know it is far more important that we live well RIGHT NOW than that our children live well?? And stinking LIBERALS think that the measure of a society is not how well the highest of its members live, but how well the lowest of its members live. Assholes.

    Now, I can’t really tell you anything factual that illustrates why George Bush would be a better choice than John Kerry. Oh, and I in no way believe any of the repeated stories about conflict of interest or ethical misconduct that are reported. That is just the LIBERAL media with their political agenda talking. I get my news from politically neutral sources like FOX and CNN. They NEVER slant a story or report with any kind of bias, so I know that I can trust Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity and all those guys.

    But I don’t have to have any facts or proof of why George Bush is the best choice for President. Because GOD HIMSELF personally has chosen George Bush to lead this country. My minister told me so right after the local GOP organizer called and asked for our congregational directory. That was when my minister said that Bush would never do anything ethically questionable, so I know that he must be both chosen by God and ethically sound.

  23. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Mark the Idiot — question for ya:

    How much wealth is created by capital alone, without labor?

  24. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 17

    To be a liberal, you have to believe that your fellow human being has the same rights you do, and you can’t treat him like a piece of shit.

    To be a Republican, you have to be incapable of being a liberal.

  25. 26

    Harry Tuttle spews:


    That won’t wash, MTR, Roger has presented a very complete series of statements that outline what liberalism is and why it is good for society.

    You canoot get by with one of your rightwing talking points. You must answer point-by-point in order to look like anything but a sophmoric fool, which is your status now.

  26. 28

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    correction to 9

    In paragraph beginning: “WINGFUCKS like Mark the Non-Producer oppose minimum wage laws, overtime pay, and unemployment benefits for the involunatrily unemployed.” Third sentence should read:

    They want to empty the Social Security Trust Fund to get money for buying stocks.

  27. 29

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I’m proud to be a liberal. We liberals need to stop the reactionary propagandists from taking the term and redefining it in order to demonize the values the term “liberal” stands for, which are the core values of our society and have served us well. As Alan Colmes said in his book “Red, White & Liberal”:

    “It’s about time that liberals stood up proudly, declared that their views are deeply steeped in fine American tradition, and stopped running away from what they are. I’m a Liberal. What are you going to make of it?”

  28. 30

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Have there been liberal excesses? Did we liberals take some of our ideas too far? Of course. But we were (and are) open to criticism, and self-criticism, and when we went off the rails we made corrections.

    Now, it’s your turn. Your party has gone off the rails. Your leaders have abandoned your basic principles, and your ideology has become extremist and counterproductive.

    What are you going to do about it?

  29. 31

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    In case there are some who don’t know it Mark The Redneck is just one of the pseudonyms Kevin Carns’ uses here as a paid
    shill for the Republican Party.

    It is entirely appropriate for him to be asked what the Republican Party is going to do to change its radical course, which is now antithetical to long held Republican principles.

  30. 32

    Harry Tuttle spews:

    The reason Carns hangs out here is because he knows that Goldy is
    a threat to the Republican message machine. He also knows that
    Goldy’s site attracts participants and readers on the comment
    threads from all over the country. Take a look at the site meter
    on the left (appropriate) to see for yourself. The crap the
    wingnuts post here has no intent to convince, it is merely spam
    to discourage intelligent discourse, which they cannot prevail

    That defines present day Republicans. In all phases of their
    destructive path, they must lie and cheat to retain power. A
    clear statement of what they are really about, transferring
    wealth from the middle-class to the rich, would never win at the
    ballot box.

    There is nothing productive about hording wealth to the detriment
    of the mass of the popul0us. The only way that kind of economy
    can survive is through constant war.

  31. 34

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    25 – Does that include the “right” to stick your greedy fucking hand in my wallet and pull out whatever you want to cover up the consequences of a lifetime of bad choices?

    You traded the low expectations and security of a gummint job for a real job with real money. You made the choice. Live with it.

    Like I’ve been saying here, if you want what I’ve got, do what I do. If you lack the moral character or intelligence to do those things, tough shit.

  32. 35

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “The reason Carns hangs out here is because he knows that Goldy is a threat to the Republican message machine.”

    No, Kevin only hangs out here because somebody is paying him to post wingnut propaganda here. The money men who sign his paychecks are too stupid to realize that all they’re doing is making HA more popular and helping us get the liberal message out to the public.

  33. 36

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Well let’s see. I posted #9 at 11:01 ASM and 2 1/2 hours later Redneck’s only response is a bumper sticker slogan — and not even a good one because now Republicans are sticking their greedy fucking hands in his wallet like never before!

    You’ve made a lifetime of bad choices, Mark. You invested years in four degrees that taught you nothing. You can’t function in a family, much less in society — your only successful relationship is with a car. You not only can’t defend what you believe in, you don’t even know what you believe in, and you certainly don’t know anything about what you’re against. People you thought were your friends and mentors are stealing from you, and you don’t know it or can’t admit it.

    You’re a sad pathetic looooooooooooooooooooooser.

  34. 37

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Like I’ve been saying here, if you want what I’ve got, do what I do.” Commentby Mark The Redneck Kennedy— 6/18/06@ 1:17 pm

    Let’s clear up a misapprehension on your part: You’ve got nothing I need or want.

  35. 38

    dj spews:

    Mark the Thieving Redneck @ 34

    “Like I’ve been saying here, if you want what I’ve got, do what I do. If you lack the moral character or intelligence to do those things, tough shit.”

    WTF? Who the hell wants to be a common thief like you, Redneck?

    Gawd…and with the distorted reality that your statement conveys, who the fuck wants to be as stupid as you?

  36. 39

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    The biggest mistake we liberals make is thinking people are rational, or even aspire to be rational. America is in the grip of a powerful rightwing movement that is emotion-driven, irrational, and consciously anti-reason. It is a mass hysteria, a mob mentality, a collective nervous breakdown.

    Leoopold von Ranke, the great 19th-century intellectual and founder of the modern academic discipline of history, perfectly captured the essence of this social pathology when he wrote:

    “Neither blindness nor ignorance corrupts people and governments. They soon realize where the pay they have taken is leading them. But there is an impulse within them, favored by their natures and reinforced habits, which they do not resist; it ocntinues to propel them forward as long as they have a remnant of strength. He who overcomes himself is divine. Most see their ruin before their eyes; but they go on into it.”

  37. 40

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    I strongly suspect that if we knew who Mark the Redneck is, and knew the details of where his income comes from, we would find that he is merely a parasite sucking blood from the social host, contributing nothing but merely taking whatever he can get his hands on.

  38. 41

    LeftTurn spews:

    So Timmy the liar meets up with a bunch of bible-thumpin’ liars. They both deserve to get fucked. And they did and I think it’s funnier than Hell. Fuck Timmy and his church buddy child molestors.

  39. 42

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    The German journalist Joachim Fest opened his famous biography of Hitler with that quote from von Ranke, then continued,

    “Hitler’s peculiar greatness is essentially linked to the quality of excess. It was a tremendous eruption of energy ….

    “He also had an amazing instinct for what forces could be mobilized … (t)he period of his entry into politics ws wholly dominated by the liberal bourgeois system. But he grasped the latent oppositions to it ….

    “His conduct seemed foolish to political minds, and for years the arrogant Zeitgeist did not take him seriously. The mockery he earned was justified by his appearance, his rhetorical flights, and the theatrical atmosphere he deliberately created. Yet in a manner difficult to describe he always stood above his banal and dull-witted aspects. One particular source of his strength lay in his ability to build castles in the air with an intrepid and acute rationality.”

    Fest goes on to explain Hitler’s peculiar appeal to the German people, against the backdrop of the traumas of the time, in these terms:

    “All this was overlaid by the craving to find simple formulas to account for the opaque, intricately involved causes of moreseness, and to fell from ll the vexations the age provided into the shelter of an imperious authority.”

    The parallels, of course, are far from exact. But if we think about it, we will realize that the political and social phenomenon that George W. Bush and the movement he leads sprung from the trauma of the 9/11 attacks, and would not have been possible without that shock. We will understand that the psychological mechanisms driving America’s early-21st-century rightwing nationalism are disturbingly similar to those that gave birth to the Nazi movement in Germany half a century ago. Humn nature does not change over the centuries, and the impulses that drove Salem’s witch-hunters are the same as those boiling to the surface today.

    In short, we blow off Bush and his horde of anti-reason followers at our grave peril. History should teach us there are no limits to the evil that can be done by men who think of themselves as good and believe that, in carrying out their acts, they are saving humanity and doing God’s will. Not even pandemic disease is as dangerous as collective madness. And America, since 9/11, has been in the grip of a social insanity that is raging through our land like a pack of rabid dogs. If we cannot get a leash on them, they will destroy us all, including themselves.

  40. 45

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    That paragraph in entirety should read:

    “All this was overlaid by the craving to find simple formulas to account for the opaque, intricately involved causes of moroseness, and to flee from all the vexations the age provided into the shelter of an imperious authority.”

  41. 46

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Hey Rabbit – Tell us again how you gave up $250/hour to serve humanity.

    Tell me, was it stoopidty or just low self esteem that caused you to settle for low level gummint job? Couldn’t handle the heat in a real office where you gotta worry about “billable hours”?

  42. 47

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    37 – THen get your greedy fucking hands off my wallet. Get your own you loser.

  43. 48

    dj spews:

    Mark the Thieving Redneck @ 47

    “THen get your greedy fucking hands off my wallet. Get your own you loser.”

    How about you get the fuck out of my country.

    Look, you fucking thief, this is the way it works. If you live in this society, you ante up to keep it going. If you don’t like it, go the fuck away. We could do with a lot fewer assholes like you that have no integrity.

    I mean, given that you stole $100 from Goldy but continue to use his blog comment threads, you undoubtedly steal from the government by cheating on your taxes. And you no doubt embezzle money from your employer, as well.

  44. 49

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    Speaking of R65, I haven’t heard anyone make the case why somebody should get special privileges based on who they fuck. That seems kinda weird to me. Anybody care to “educate” me?

    Also make the case why only a certain type of fucking is protected and why the most bizarre form of fucking gets special treatment. Why should somebody get special privileges just because they like the feeling of a dick up their ass.

    Just wondering…

  45. 50

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    So DJ, why don’t you and the others in the lower half start anteing up. That’s all I want. Pay your way you fucking parasite.

  46. 51

    K spews:

    Mark @ 34- How dare you talk of “moral character” when in your post @ 1, beginning this thread, you indicate you don ‘t care if Eyeman lied to religious leaders, he saved you money.

    You amoral, hippocritical pig. You do not know the meaning of moral character.

  47. 52

    K spews:

    And Mark, if you want to live in a society without government in your pocket, move to Somalia. It’s working real well over there.

  48. 53

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    K – I want you fucking parasites to start paying your fair share and to get your greedy fucking hands out of my wallet. I’m SAFT of doing all the fucking heavy lifting.

  49. 54

    K spews:

    I pay my fare share, asshole. I also teach my children that the end does not justify the means. That lies that line my pockets are not OK.

  50. 55

    For the Clueless spews:

    Another Republican Perv outed.

    The Republican party is dominated by right-wing degenerates. The question remains whether the Dems really want to take the country back.

    MTR – pay the bet you lost with Goldy. Until you do, you are beneath scum.

  51. 56

    Harry Tuttle aka voter advocate spews:


    I know that is true, RR, but it is difficult for me to believe that people are that short-sighted. To me, those unable to resist mass hysteria and make rational assessments of the threats they face are savages. How is it possible to operate within a supposedly democratic, at least a representative system when the populous is so easily fooled?

    Perhaps we have reached the end of the road that Ben Franklin foretold when the Constitution was finished. He saw the document as flawed, but also recognized the need for a functioning government soon at the end of the 18th century.

    Franklin said, it will fail, as all such constitutions have in the past, because of the essential corruption of the people. He pointed his finger at all the American people. When the people become so corrupt, he said, we will find it is not a republic that they want but rather despotism — the only form of government suitable for such a people.

    Are you saying RR, that MTR represents the American people at the beginning of the 21st century? That we all must live under the thumb of a despotic president because of people like MTR?

    I once though I knew the answer to my questions, and it was a hopeful one. Now, I’m not sure at all.

  52. 58

    Harry Tuttle aka voter advocate spews:


    You’re statements are irrelevancies. You may represent the mass of American society, I think only about 35%, but you a fundamentaly un-American and wrong.

    We will not live under a despot of your choice. If despotism is what you desire, consider the historic examples of left leaning ones in your calculations. We don’t welcome such an elevation, but if given one, we know who our enemies are.

    We now resist populism, but if you want to see class warfare in reality, keep up your wholely aristocraic rants.

  53. 60

    Mark The Redneck Kennedy spews:

    So it’s “aristocratic” now if I demand to keep MY fucking money?

    You are a leech… a parasite… a loser…

  54. 61

    Harry Tuttle spews:


    You still owe $100 and answers to all of RR points, above. Stop
    ducking the issues and give some answers, you cowardly idiot.

  55. 62

    K spews:

    MTR- You have your money because there is a government in place which maintains our political and economic system. How well would you do in SOmalia?

  56. 63

    LeftTurn spews:

    It’s funny how Timmy Lieman screwed the righties. I love it. Republican train wrecks are the best to watch!

  57. 64

    dj spews:

    Mark the Thieving Redneck,

    “So DJ, why don’t you and the others in the lower half start anteing up. That’s all I want. Pay your way you fucking parasite.”

    Ummm…sorry Redneck for someone who cannot even make good on a $100 bet, you have no moral authority to demand that ANYONE pay up for ANYTHING.

    You are a fucking thief.

  58. 65

    dj spews:

    Mark the Thieving Redneck,

    “I’m SAFT of doing all the fucking heavy lifting.”


    Yeah…like you are doing any fucking “heavy lifting.” Even if you were in one of the higher tax brackets (and I seriously doubt you are), you would cheat the government of your fair share of taxes.

    Your are a fucking scab on a pimple on the ass of humanity.

  59. 66

    thor spews:

    R 65 failed miserably because hardly anyone supports making it legal again to fire someone just because of their sexual orientation.

    The issue never really divided liberals from conservatives or republicans from democrats, except in the state Senate, where the GOP caucus obviously serioulsy misread the mainstream nature of banning discrimination based on sexual orientation. Its a fundamental = and even the state’s most conservative newspapers editorialized in favor of banning discrimation based on sexual orientation and against R 65.

    Tim Eyman chased headlines on the subject along with a very few evangelical extremist preachers interested only in publicity. The vast majority of people in the state saw through the whole thing.

  60. 67

    Dr Devilology spews:

    Goldy, great post, one exception:

    The Christian Dominionist right did not “make a deal with the Devil. ” The only people who can make a “deal with” themselves are those suffering from multiple personality disorder or, the occasional schizophrenic.

    Having studied demonarchy and Devilology for 20 years I can definitavely state:

    The Christian Dominionist Right IS the Devil.

  61. 68

    Libertarian spews:

    LIBERALS gave us the Constitution and Bill of Rights, free speech, free press, freedom of religion, and due process of law.

    “LIBERALS” are alive and well today. They just call themselves “LIBERTARIANS” now.

  62. 69

    rhp6033 spews:

    It’s pretty clear, now, that the real purpose of R-65 was not to pass the initiative, but to get names and addresses for further fundraising efforts.

    “Tim charges that FFN wanted to use the names for fundraising which was the other reason why he reneged on his agreement with FFN. In fact, FFN told him all along that the signers were people who would likely want to be involved in the gay marriage issue and FFN was in the battle for the long haul, not just for the moment. FFN never had any discussion with Tim Eyman about using the names for fundraising. He is just making up that completely fabricated charge, hoping to find sympathy for himself and justify his not honoring the agreement he made with FFN.”

    Source: Post by FFN on its websight.

    So FFN thought by publishing their own initiatives, they could use them to compile their own fundraising mailing list, and Tim Eyeman thought the same. They both became suspicious of the other’s motives, and in the end neither cooperated with the other.

    It’s becoming more and more clear, event to those who would tend to support his “causes”, that Tim Eyeman is in it for the money, not the “cause”. The money he makes of his referendum campaigns, and the notariety it gives him which feeds his ego, far exceeds the benefits he gets from his watch sales.

    In fact, I’m beginning to wonder if Tim really wants his initiatives to succeed. His strategies, including using deceptive headlines on his initiatives and poor wording which has caused several of them to be struck down by judges, makes one wonder why his sponsors would keep backing him. But as long as he can still point to the “bogeyman” of taxes and gay marriage, and then blame the judges for his own failures, he can still keep going to the same sponsors to get money for yet another referendum drive.

    That’s what makes MTR’s comments on this board so hillarious. He keeps arguing that Republicans are the producers, when in reality the only thing they are good at is seperating money from real producers under a variety of guises, then calling the real producers names.

  63. 70

    LeftTurn spews:

    I think we need to put the bright light on the people behind this so-called Faith And Freedom Network. Time to look into their past and see what secrets they’re hiding.