by Lee, 12/31/2009, 10:49 AM

Back in November, I posted the following:

Remember the big push a few years back after the Terri Schiavo mess to encourage people to have a living will for such situations? If you were one of the people who did that, make sure you avoid Catholic health care institutions as they’ve been ordered by the United States Council of Catholic Bishops to ignore people’s wishes and keep patients alive regardless of the circumstance.

When I posted this, I didn’t think it was too terribly daring a thing to post about (although I certainly could have been more specific about the relevant circumstances, which are fairly rare), but for Joel Connelly of the Seattle PI, it apparently struck a nerve, as he left this comment for me:

Would you please spare us your anti-Catholic bigotry? It was disgusting during the I-2000 [sic] campaign. It is despicable now.
A simple call to Providence administrators, or the boss up at St. Joseph Hospital in Bellingham, would have given you honest material with which to work. You could have asked about living wills — in which a person’s wishes get laid out — which are strongly encouraged.
You could have asked about the provision for hospice care, available to everyone regardless of ability to pay.
Or you could have delved into what they’d do in the case of a patient wishing to exercise his/her “right” to end life.
Instead, we get an ignorant screech.
Apparently, on Horsesass.org, one form of religious prejudice is not only acceptable but encouraged.

After reading this, I was genuinely worried that the folks at Compassion and Choices might have overstated their case and that maybe I was being a little too harsh in my post. So I tried to contact a number of local Catholic hospitals via email asking if Connelly was right and that they would refuse the directive that C&C was referencing, but I got nothing back. Then I contacted Connelly directly to see if he could point me to a facility who would “give me honest material with which to work”. Oddly, when I did this, Connelly sent me the name of a hospital administrator to contact, then started walking back his claims after I posted an update to HorsesAss.

By this point, though, I was already starting to become well aware that Connelly was full of shit. In fact, the hospital administrator whose name he gave me wasn’t the only name he passed along. He also sent me the name of a hospital administrator in Canada, despite the fact that this directive was from the United States Council of Catholic Bishops. Connelly apparently knew nothing about the updated directive or the legal and ethical issues involved and simply didn’t care. As far as I can tell, he just assumed that Compassion and Choices was full of it because he doesn’t like them. And he was confident enough about this blind assertion to call me a bigot over it.

Barbara Coombs Lee from Compassion and Choices, however, does know what she’s talking about and does understand the issues involved here. Her latest post details more of the legal and ethical issues behind this decree and points to this article, which quotes from someone a bit more qualified than Connelly:

Alan Meisel, founder and director of the University of Pittsburgh’s Center for Bioethics and Health Law, wonders if Catholic hospitals could be compelled by law to respect patients’ advance directives, regardless of the Church’s moral stance. He says it is not clear whether the legally binding power of an advance directive would outweigh the Church’s right to administer medicine in accordance with its beliefs.

“[If] the hospital seeks to impose a treatment on a patient which that person does not want, to impose that treatment is battery,” he says,but adds a caveat: “One could say since you’ve admitted yourself to a Catholic hospital, that’s a form of consent.

“If I were a patient with a directive,” he continues, “I would probably add to it that I didn’t want to be taken to a Catholic hospital.”

I’m sure Joel Connelly will get his typewriter out now and send Meisel a little note informing him that he needs to spare us all his anti-Catholic bigotry.

UPDATE: In somewhat related news, the Montana Supreme Court upheld a lower court ruling that legalizes death with dignity in that state.

61 Responses to “Blind Man’s Bluff”

1. SJ, Troll Patrol spews:

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2. Mr. Cynical spews:

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3. SJ, Troll Patrol spews:

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4. Mr. Cynical spews:

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5. Mr. Cynical spews:

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6. Mr. Cynical spews:

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7. Empty Suit Obama spews:

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8. Steve spews:

Joel Connely kind of lost it in that initial thread of Lee’s. I thought he had more on the ball. I reckon not.

9. Lee spews:

Please stay on topic everyone, I’ll post up an Open Thread here so that you’ll have a place where you can all act like you’re in kindergarten.

10. Rabbit Reflux spews:

Love it! Leftists hitting each other with their NPR hemp tote bags. Throwing their almost empty dope baggies in each other’s compost piles. Throwing their soggy condoms on each other’s lawns.

So tell us, Lee, since you seem to be vamping as referee: Is Goldy an anti-Catholic bigot, as Connelly claims, or is fat Connolly an anti-Semite?

11. Alki Postings spews:

Magic rules the day. Magic trumps your personal wishes. Magic tell us marijuana is bad. Magic tells us gays are destroying “real America”. I’m getting tired of magic and superstition ruling the land. It’s almost 2010…grow up! I don’t care what your invisible magical unicorn tells you…leave me alone!

12. Alki Postings spews:

Do you believe that Joesph Smith realled talked to god and the book of Mormon is from god?

Do you believe the Pope is gods word on earth and the Catholic Church is the only real church?

Do you believe Muhammad was the last prophet, the last person god told his latest ‘rules’ to?

Do you believe that Vishnu is real, or Shiva, and make offerings to the Hindu gods?

No one person on hear believes all of those above. They KNOW magically their belief is true and the OTHERS are just man made fictions. Huh. Everyone’s god is true, and all others are fake. Funny.

I really respect the Amish. No matter how silly I might personally find their beliefs, at least they follow their convictions and don’t try to outlaw electricity and bright colored clothing for everyone else (who don’t belong to their religion).

13. Lee spews:

@10
So tell us, Lee, since you seem to be vamping as referee: Is Goldy an anti-Catholic bigot, as Connelly claims, or is fat Connolly an anti-Semite?

Neither, and despite Connelly’s faults, he’s still significantly smarter than the stable of trolls who inhabit these threads every day.

Throwing their soggy condoms on each other’s lawns.

I didn’t realize that having sex made someone a liberal. Oh my! What a put-down! How are you going to insult liberals next, by telling them they’re good looking and friendly?

LOL! Idiot.

14. Roger Rabbit spews:

The U.S. Catholic Church, which for nearly 100 years practiced deception on a massive scale to hide the fact its priests were molesting boys, probably figures because they can safely ignore court orders because there’s nothing the courts can do to them as the sexual abuse lawsuits have already bankrupted them.

15. joel connelly spews:

Lee:
Amidst all the rhetoric, citing of the suicide lobby and efforts to cast your efforts in a favorable light, you are again dodging the challenge I made.
Instead of writing hospitals a hostile letter, why didn’t you call, make an appointment, and visit the Providence health system offices (north of REI)? Ask how they deal with the approach of death.
Likely, you’d learn a lot more about hospice care. Ditto at St. Paul’s Hospital in Vancouver, which treats addicts’ overdoes in the city’s downtown East Side. The hospital, with Catholic roots, is located in a traditionalist diocese.
I don’t think you want to learn, however, but only to bait the Catholic Church. Which is the better word to describe such a mindset, prejudice or bigotry?

16. Idiots R Us spews:

Neither, and despite Connelly’s faults, he’s still significantly smarter than the stable of trolls who inhabit these threads every day.

Alas. I thought you’d thrown yourself into the middle of another Goldy-Joel spat. Abject apologies for being a blind idiot.

The used condom reference comes from Goldy, about two years ago. He had nothing interesting or useful to tell us, so he told us about used rubbers being chucked on the lawn of stately Goldstein Manor. Then he whimpered and whined. Typical day at the deposit end of the horse’s ass.

17. Empty Suit Obama spews:

I dont’ agree with the Joel Connelly on much (especially the global warming cult membership of which they are both card carrying members of), but on this one I do agre with him on Lee’s anti-catholic bigotry.

Most heathenistic liberals that proclaim to be atheists have a very jilted view of any church but an absolute vitriolic, unhealthy hatred of the Catholic church. They would prefer to cross the street and poke a stick in the eye of a catholic rather than just mosey on down their own path in life.

You see this destructive view held widely in Seattle, which is why it is a helluva alot less tolerant than its reputation.

18. Zotz spews:

@16: Trust me, low tolerance for religious bullshit is not confined to Seattle.

You’re paranoid and projecting, dickwad. That’s what religious wingnuts do.

19. Empty Suit Obama spews:

Bigot @ 17:

…low tolerance for religious bullshit is not confined to Seattle.

Thanks for being exhibit A of what I was referring to. Nice going, Zotz.

20. proud leftist spews:

Little Ricky Dumbass @16
You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. You just make crap up. The left is by nature much more tolerant and accepting of people with differing belief systems. Intolerance of diverse belief systems is a fundamental component of contemporary American conservatism. I can’t think of a better example of such intolerance than you.

21. Max Rockatansky spews:

why is it so hard for the atheist left to follow one simple rule:

if you dont like how the catholics(or anybody else) run their hospital – than DONT FUCKING GO THERE…

22. Jason Osgood spews:

Hoorah for Montana.

Maxwell @ 20

True enough. However…

You’re forgetting the slippery slope.

Imagine the Catholic hospitals collectively decide to deny people their lawful right to die with dignity. Do you think they’ll be satisfied then and stop agitating?

I think not. The regressives are never satisfied. Such a victory will only embolden them.

Extending someone else’s suffering is unimaginably inhumane. I’ve had friends who weren’t blessed with a dignified death. It’s not pretty.

It’s tragic that pundits like Joel haven’t faced their mortality issues. But his fear is not my problem.

Woe to the person(s) who denies me a graceful exit. I’ve already done the chemo, the puking, the withering in pain, etc. I’ll decide when I’ve had enough. That’s my decision.

23. Ann Neumann spews:

There is no slippery slope. It’s only fear-monger by those who haven’t held the hand of a loved one in pain nor taken the time to learn the facts about the delivery of health care in the US.

The USCCB manages 624 hospitals in this country, all according to the 72 Ethical and Religious Directives that limit common medical practices according to their doctrine. No tubal ligations, no sterilizations for men or women, no fertility treatments for lesbian or unmarried women, no STD and AIDS prevent, no birth control. And no honoring of advance directives that the church doesn’t like. No referrals; no informed consent.

Of course, the sick and poor are the easiest targets for conversion….

You’re dying and you don’t want to have a feeding tube inserted? Too bad, should your doctor deem it necessary.

All this on the federal dime (which of course can’t be used for abortion, a legal, common medical procedure), and with tax-exempt status to boot.

Check out The MergerWatch Project for more scary facts!

Contesting the use of Catholic doctrine to discriminate against patients’ right is not anti-Catholic hatred; it’s a belief in one of the primary tenets of this country: separation of church and state.

Everyone should have a right to health care that they choose with informed consent. Everyone should have a choice of which God they serve.

24. sarah68 spews:

“visit the Providence health system offices (north of REI)? Ask how they deal with the approach of death.”

Joel, just what do you consider “the approach of death”? Do you mean after the patient has been tubed/electroded/fed/watered/drugged for varying periods of time (sometimes years) because the Vatican doesn’t believe they should be allowed to die on their own time, even though family members have testified that their relatives didn’t want that “treatment”?

As far as prejudice and bigotry, the treatment of gays alone should cause Catholic organizations to be banned from being able to control in any way anyone’s body. But that’s the main business of the Church, it seems — controlling bodies for the sake of souls. Gays’ bodies, womens’ bodies, the bodies of everyone who live in an area where small community hospitals can’t compete with large well-funded Catholic hospitals run by what are literally corporations. If you’re lucky enough to live in Seattle, you have choices. Many areas don’t.

I’m not a Catholic or even a Christian, but if I were, I’d be ashamed of my religion. I know a number of Catholics who are. And we haven’t even mentioned shipping molesting priests all over the planet to escape liability claims.

How moral all that is.

25. SJ spews:

Sighhhh….

FWIW, the text Lee deleted suggested, in an effort at irony, that Lee consider getting the Church’s help in exorcisng whatever devil that drives this behavior.

I had assumed that he might find that idea humorous.

More seriously, I think Lee’s posts on this topic unermoine the good that Goldy does. Joel has it exactly right. If Lee thinks there is something bad going on at church run hopsitals, he surely could take the time to gather some evidence.

Othyerwise, lee maybe ought to see if Glenn Beck needs another writer.

26. SJ spews:

[Deleted - off topic]

27. Gman spews:

[Deleted - off topic]

28. Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:

BTW to answer Alki Postings Catholic question… Puddy doesn’t hold the Pope in any Christian category. He isn’t the Vicar of Christ as he claims. How can someone place a “hat” with three levels while placing a “hat” on Jesus with only two levels? The Pope is more important than Jesus the Son of God? Christ already gave explicit instructions rgarding how to get to God. You only confess your sins to Jesus. All else is folly. There is no Biblical reference to perform anything other than approach boldly the Throne of Grace!

Regarding the Catholic hospital question, nope wouldn’t visit them in a life or death situation unless Puddy was comatose and Mrs Puddy sent me there. Puddy would rather visit Loma Linda Hospital if possible.
@16:

The used condom reference comes from Goldy, about two years ago.

What do you expect from an HA Libtardo? Each possesses moronic mindless memory malady! They don’t have useful memories past 24 hours. Witness Herr Goebbels Dumb Bunny! Remember the picture Goldy provided with the thread? Let’s see if Lee can find it.

Lee if you fail to find it, contact HA’s arschloch ylb arschloch. As you know he provides a free HA DB backup service. Ask him to use his tctmgr to find the thread.

29. Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:

Proud Leftist farts again…

The left is by nature much more tolerant and accepting of people with differing belief systems.

BULLSHIT. Witness the attacks on the Mormons, blacks and hispanics over Prop 8 in California. It’s either your way or no way.

Intolerance of diverse belief systems is a fundamental component of contemporary American conservatism.

Oh you mean the “debate is over” came from a conservative? Can you produce a “link” for Puddy?

30. Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:

Sarah68,

Puddy agrees whoeheartedly with you on the molested children issue. It’s sick and disgusting. It’s another reason Puddy will stay away from Catholic institutions as much as possible. Puddy doesn’t agree with Catholic Hospitals forcing their beliefs on you on your dying bed.

31. ArtFart spews:

I’m pretty disappointed with this whole thread. Lee has attempted to raise what might be a blunder by the USCCB in rewriting one of their directives in a way that might lead to some issues in interpretation, and which certainly warrants some intelligent discussion. It’s too bad he seems to have used it as a soapbox to start a debate with Joel and others about the general suckyness of the Catholic Church in particular and religion in general. That our resident trolls have sliced and diced the conversation into even more of a my-minister-kicks-your-rabbi’s-ass orgy of drivel, was probably to be expected. That some of the clearer heads of our little tribe haven’t done much better is disappointing.

I’m not surprised to see posts from the likes of Cyn deleted as off-topic, but I find it hard to believe that Steve’s attempts to post in this thread contained nothing of value. Whatever axe you feel the need to grind here, Lee, I’d say you’ve pretty well whittled it away to a useless nub.

32. Max Rockatansky spews:

why are states that lean to the left(like WA), often the ones with the worst litter and filth problem…hhmmmm….

33. Max Rockatansky spews:

@23…you claim to want separation of church and state in one sentence, then decry how catholics run their hospitals, and want the govt to step in…..

so in other words, separation of church and state is only a good thing as long as it is convenient for you….

ONCE AGAIN, if you dont like how the catholics run their hospitals – THEN DONT GO TO ONE!…take yourself to Swedish or Multi-Care or Group Health, etc……..

who the hell are you to tell them what to do?

34. SJ spews:

ArtFart

Sorry, Lee has an obse3ssionj with me. I did tease him about his aloso being obsessedwith the Church and I guess he found that offensive.

Leaving personality behind, there is plenty to criticize in the Romans Catholic Church. BUT, there nho9spi8tals seem to me to be pretty good. I certainly would rather go to a Catholic hospital then to one run by Puddy’s buddies.

If Lee really wants some issue in re healthcare, howsabout focusing on the discussion of the Texas shrink/murder? The issue of what is and is not ethical in military hospitals is one of many examples that have been documented by others and might well be worth his attention.

Another very REAL issue is med schyool admissions. Years ago on the UW med school admin ctee I encountered students whose motivations for going to med school were evangelical. I refused to review such students because I did not know how to decide when a student believed she was called by Jesus to use a state medical school education to spread the word.

This still goes on … franhkly I have no diea what should be done.

35. Darryl spews:

Artfart,

I’m not surprised to see posts from the likes of Cyn deleted as off-topic, but I find it hard to believe that Steve’s attempts to post in this thread contained nothing of value. Whatever axe you feel the need to grind here, Lee, I’d say you’ve pretty well whittled it away to a useless nub.

First, you have made an incorrect assumption. I deleted some of the off topic comments, including at least one by SJ.

They were deleted because they were off-topic.

And SJ’s claim that “Lee has an obsession with [him],” is blatantly false. I have watched these two interact for a very long time, and sat by quietly on the sidelines. Now I speak.

About 90% of the negativity between these two fine liberals, sadly, I must pin on SJ. He has had a bizarre obsession with Lee going way back to Blog Reload days, when he would come out with the most outrageous bullshit and nonsensical arguments in the comment threads. I assume this continuing pattern of commenting is intended to provoke Lee. For what, I haven’t a clue.

Oh…and both of them are friends of mine. I can find blame on both sides. But the facts are the facts, and, objectively, the bulk of the antagonism falls on the shoulders of SJ.

36. Milo spews:

@ 15 Joel Connelly:

“Amidst all the rhetoric, citing of the suicide lobby and efforts to cast your efforts in a favorable light, you are again dodging the challenge I made.”

How? He did just as you asked: he contacted *Seattle* (not Canadian) Catholic hospitals and got no reply. But if he asked the question, and got no reply, it seems to me your argument isn’t proven and there’s circumstantial evidence to suggest Catholic hospitals won’t follow certain advance directives.

Maybe someone like you with a press-pass and the same religion could get them to answer, Joel?

37. proud leftist spews:

Art @ 31
Great post. I always read your posts because you have something to say. Unfortunately, sometimes, I feel I must sacrifice having anything meaningful to say and just dwell in the trenches and bash trolls. It’s dirty work, and the pay isn’t very good, but someone has to do it.

38. SJ as Steve spews:

@ Darryl

A bit surprised. I would VERY much like to know what you saw that way. I would also welcome any efforts you are willing to make to calm the fires.

For my side of things, let me point out that Leeis an editor here. He has a long series of posts, many of them obscene, disparaging me as an academic and accusing me of everything from sexual abberations to inciting anti islamic terrorism.

Lee’s obsession has gone well beyond HA. I assume you know about his effort to take action against me at the UW and the response of the Seattle police to some of his activities at the time of the Haq murder?

With all that I would avoid commenting on what he says except rhat he posts here on two issues I care deeply about.

The first issues is patient care. Itb is bogotry to blasting physicians and hospitals who opposed I-1000 BECAUSE the Church takes a moral stand. His invokation of priestly pedastry is dismissive of the very real devotion my colleagues, Catholic and not, have to care of terminal patients. It is also very dismissive of the good things the Church does.

Lee’s medical marijuana diatribes, have a similar flavor. Dissing scientists and physicians for NOT treating marujuana as a miracle drug undermines the hard work of some very good people. Advocating that people inhale benzpyrene as a way of getting high or treating nausea is wrong. Justifying the exposure of children at Hempfest to MJ smoke ranks pretty low as well.

Frankly, the little world of HA is too small for this sort mof animosity. Lee obviously could choose to argue with me (as you do) on a civil basis. I have offered many times to sit down with him .. with you or with any other friend .. and resolve differences.

That offer remains open.

39. Maritzia spews:

Pffft….I’d put in my advance directives to keep me out of a Catholic hospital, but in the area I live (Bellingham) the *only* hospital available is Catholic. And don’t get me wrong, it’s a great hospital. I had surgery there a couple of years ago, and the treatment was great.

But I also got a letter from them last year after I-1000 passed telling me that their doctors were forbidden from discussing such options with their patients. And now they’ve bought on of the largest practices in the area, so those doctors are forbidden also.

Those of us in this area don’t exactly have a lot of options.

40. Lee spews:

@38
Lee’s obsession has gone well beyond HA. I assume you know about his effort to take action against me at the UW and the response of the Seattle police to some of his activities at the time of the Haq murder?

Um, yes, which happened after you refused to stop emailing me after I asked you to stop. It was your employer, the University of Washington, who encouraged me to involve the Seattle Police.

As Darryl has clearly explained, you have a very unhealthy obsession with me. I’ve tried numerous times to get you to stop interacting with me online (you’ll notice that I never make any attempts to interact with you, but only respond when you deliberately lie about things I’ve said or make other outrageous accusations).

41. Lee spews:

@15
Amidst all the rhetoric, citing of the suicide lobby and efforts to cast your efforts in a favorable light, you are again dodging the challenge I made.

Sorry, Joel, but this shit ain’t hard. All I’m asking is for a single hospital administrator to confirm that they will honor a patient’s advance directive in a circumstance that conflicts with the Bishop’s directive in question. That’s it. It doesn’t require an appointment and it doesn’t require that I sit through a spiel where they can blow smoke up my ass. It requires a very simple binary response from an administrator. For you to attempt to describe this any other way is misleading, and you’ve been dishonest about that fact throughout this entire mess.

42. Lee spews:

@31
Art, the only comment from Steve I deleted was a response to Cynical’s off-topic comment. I’ve deleted nothing of value within this comment thread (as you can easily tell because there’s very little of value in what was actually left up).

You and I often disagree on things, but unlike many others, you argue from a standpoint of facts and logic, and I appreciate that. If you have a problem with any of the substantive points I’ve made, let me know and we can debate it, but that’s not what seems to happen whenever I post about this (and I’m not blaming you for that).

43. Lee spews:

@31
Correction from my earlier comment, I realize that you were referring to SJ, not Steve (in comment #8). As for SJ, his first comment was about my supposed obsessions, which has nothing to do with the topic at all, therefore I deleted it. His second comment was a response to Cynical’s off-topic comment, therefore deleted as well.

See Darryl’s comment at #35 if you’re not clear on the nature of what’s been happening between SJ and myself. His obsession with me is quite terrifying (my wife is actually afraid that he’ll do something drastic), and as I’ve mentioned, after bringing it up with his employer, they were concerned enough with his behavior that they encouraged me to have Seattle Police deal with it.

44. Lee spews:

@38
the response of the Seattle police to some of his activities at the time of the Haq murder?

For the thousandth time, that was not me. Someone else must have seen your extremely anti-Islamic posts after the Haq shooting and notified your employer. I’ve explained this to you more times than I can recall. If you want to know why Darryl thinks you’re at fault in this whole mess, this is a pretty big reason why. Stop accusing me of doing things I’ve never done.

45. Max Rockatansky spews:

@43…stoner paranoia?

46. Lee spews:

@45
From who? From my wife who doesn’t smoke pot?

47. SJ spews:

Lee

We have been there before.

Um, yes, which happened after you refused to stop emailing me after I asked you to stop.

These harassing emails exist in your mind. I use one client, gmail, and it has records of very few emails to you, certainly none that anyone would call harassment.

It was your employer, the University of Washington, who encouraged me to involve the Seattle Police. ….

For the thousandth time, that was not me. Someone else must have seen your extremely anti-Islamic posts after the Haq shooting and notified your employer.

Is there an inconsistency here? BTW, all I know is that after your threats the police came to see me. Maybe the UW warned them about you?

48. SJ spews:

More Lee

I’ve mentioned, after bringing it up with his employer, they were concerned enough with his behavior that they encouraged me to have Seattle Police deal with it.

Sorry, I do know who spoke with you and I do know what you were told. Actually, the response was SOP for the UW. The UW investigated your charges, found nothing there. they told you that there was nothing to your charges and that if you had any other concern you needed to talk with the SP.

FWIW they also expressed concern for my safety. I and I reassured them that I did not feel in danger and did not need protection.

49. SJ spews:

Lee and Haq

My comments were not anti islamic and certainly not intemperate. Among other things you went so far as to clioam he was a Christian and therefore his education was not relvant to the attempot at mass murder.

I accurately described the teachings that most muslims of Mr Haq’s age received fcrom the Wahabi funded curriculum. I provided you with links to the Freedom House study of the subject and even invited you to meet with me and an Iman to discuss the issues with Wahabi teaching.

I did meet with foks in a local mosque (on my own since you were not willing to join us). I guess the folks in that mosque did not see my concerns about Haq quite the way you did? Actually they seemed very concerned with Haq.

The only obsession I saw there was with the kinds of names you called me .. names that did elicit concern by the SPD.

50. Max Rockatansky spews:

Sounds like 3 rounds in the octagon is in order for the two of you so you can settle this.

maybe we can get big john mccarthy to officiate..

I can see it now:
UFC 115
Steve “the mad jewish profesor” schwartz versus Lee “im so stoned I forgot my” last name….

51. SJ spews:

As for your wife, I hate to think what she must believe about me.

I would hope and assume that she loves you and cares for you, as my wife does for me. Any conflict intense enough to to elicit the sort of words you have used toward me publicly … these would and should make a spouse scared.

****************************
Look Lee, as I have said many times. I have nothing against you. It seems to me you are smart enough to deal with my criticisms without the epithets and accusations.

I am always open to talk.

52. SJ spews:

@50 Max

Nahh …

On a more serious note, this Pope seems to me to be serving his flaock badly. Have you read about his bizarre intent to canonize Pious IX and XII?

Sad.

53. Lee spews:

@49
From your very own blog:

Islam is today an evil religion. The evil is not confined to primitive madrassa in Pakistan or the bizar goldened robed Wahabi congregations in modern Medina. It is endemic and will be until, one must hope, a new Islam .. a Quaker movement, a movement like Hassidism, or perhaps a return to the too brief teachings of Akbar the Magnificent rule of India.

Until then, I will believe that the term “good muslim” is akin to “good KKK.”

The only obsession I saw there was with the kinds of names you called me .. names that did elicit concern by the SPD.

Once again, that was not me. As far as I can tell, someone else saw the post that I linked to and complained to the University (your employer, which you mention at the top of your blog). It was not me who called and reported it. You have been told this well over 10 times now and you keep accusing me of being the person who did it.

54. Lee spews:

@47
Is there an inconsistency here? BTW, all I know is that after your threats the police came to see me.

I never once threatened you. I wrote a blogpost accusing you of anti-Islamic bigotry, and as you can very clearly see from the post I linked to, I was very justified in doing so.

The police came to see you because someone else complained. It was not me. I don’t know who it was, and even you’ve admitted that you were never told who it was, you’re just assuming it was me because I wrote the blogpost.

55. Lee spews:

@51
As for your wife, I hate to think what she must believe about me.

She believes what most of the people who come to DL believe, that you’re a person with some mental health issues.

@47
These harassing emails exist in your mind. I use one client, gmail, and it has records of very few emails to you, certainly none that anyone would call harassment.

Incorrect. The SPD officer who responded to my call (after I was instructed by UW to call them) said that the email you sent after I asked you to stop emailing me was clearly harassment as defined by the law. I declined to pursue it because I didn’t think it was that important. Since then, I’ve occasionally regretted not pressing charges.

I’ve asked you several times to refrain from commenting on my posts unless you can keep from lying about me. Considering that you’re once again lying about something I never did (claiming that I contacted the University after the Naveed Haq incident), it’s pretty obvious that your obsession with me continues unabated.

I’m going to ask you once again to stop commenting on my posts. I tried – politely – to get you stop sending me emails. I eventually had to block your email address. I had Goldy intervene to get you to stop lying about me in the comment threads. Still no luck. Once again, for the record, I’m asking you to go away. You can claim all you want that I’m “obsessed” with you, but that seems like an awfully odd claim when you’re the one who shows up in the comment threads of every single post I write, often making things up about me, or the subjects I write about.

Please, for you, for me, for everyone at DL, get some professional help. You need it, badly.

56. Max Rockatansky spews:

Ding!

We will be back for Round 2 after a few short messages from our sponsors…

57. Lee spews:

@56
I hope you’re enjoying it, because I’m sure as hell not.

SJ, there was once a time where I would have considered sitting down with you and trying to have a conversation about this. Those days are over. Your obsession with me is truly terrifying and I’m once again asking you politely to go away. Your behavior (by leaving comments in nearly every single post I write and going from calling me a drug addict and a child abuser, then saying you have nothing against me) is more than a bit unnerving.

58. sj spews:

Lee

First, I have NEVER called you either a drug abuser nor a child abuser.

The worst term I have used is, I believe, “bubbelah.” In contrast the names you have called me are pretty serious ,,, sexual pervert, retard, douchbag, anti islamic bigot, writer of harassing emails etc all come to mind. Wouldn’t we both be better off without that sort of stuff?

BTW, As far as I know there was never any pressure on the UW or the SP about me from the Islamic community and my own talks with Muslims have gone rather well. Your comments were raised by the SP and UW . They wanted to know if I wanted protection. I reassured the SP and UW that I did not feel threatened and that was the end of that.

As for my responses to your posts here, your complaint about my posting on these subjects seems to em to be out of kilter with the intent and tenor of HA. Moreover, I sincerely believe you hurt the quality of debate here by your advocacy of medical marijuana and demonization of issues because the Catholic church takes stands. I also have a great deal of respect for Joel and think your attacks on him decrease his valued participation in the forum.

All that said, I honestly would love to end this. I greatly enjoy HA and DL and know you do as well. The offer to defuse things remains open whenever you want.

59. sj spews:

@53 Lee

If you find my criticism of the state of Islam in 2008 worrisome, you REALLY need to do some reading of Islam’s own critics. Have you read Hirsi Ali? Rushdie? Aslan? Do you ever read Pakistan or Iranian liberal blogs? BTW did you ever read the Freedom House report?

Have you read Haq’s own comments? Do you still maintain he was NOT driven by fanatical Islam?

The problem is all too real. Other religions, esp, Christianity and its sects, have gone through similar problems and the harm done has been horrible .. ranging over the Holocaust, Crusades, Slavery, and extermination of entire cultures. The current Pope wants to sanctify Pious IX, on the worst antisemitic Popes of all time.

So yeh, along with many Muslims, I am very worried about the lack of a strong reformation among Muslims.

The odd thing about your efforts is that I have had truly wonderful discussions about the state of Islam with many Muslims.

As with the other issues that divide us, a rational debate would go a lot farther and is always welcome.

60. sj spews:

54. Lee spews:

I never once threatened you. I wrote a blogpost accusing you of anti-Islamic bigotry, and as you can very clearly see from the post I linked to, I was very justified in doing so.

You explicitly threatened me with taking a complaint to the UW. The UW does not disclose the identity of the complainer but the content of the complaint seem to fit you and you yourself have said that they referred you to the SPD. You also threatened to expose me as a sexual pervert. You want more examples?

The police came to see you because someone else complained. It was not me. I don’t know who it was, and even you’ve admitted that you were never told who it was, you’re just assuming it was me because I wrote the blogpost.

The SPD officer who responded to my call (after I was instructed by UW to call them) said that the email you sent after I asked you to stop emailing me was clearly harassment as defined by the law. I declined to pursue it because I didn’t think it was that important. Since then, I’ve occasionally regretted not pressing charges.

Do you see the contradiction here?

As for the claim that there are harassing emails,as I have offered before I would like to see them as my email account can not find them. Perhaps you are blaming me for something someone else sent you?

As far as filing a complaint, you would want to be careful that you have real evidence as that would be grounds for a civil suit for slander.

believes what most of the people who come to DL believe, that you’re a person with some mental health issues.

Since she has rarely been to DL, I doubt that any such impression has come from there. I suspect most of the folks at DL, including me, dislike the vitriol. FWIW, most of the folks I talk to tell me different things than you do.

So, bottom line. Until HA becomes a censored blog, I will feel free to express my opinions.

61. Max Rockatansky spews:

Ding Ding!

and with that, we end Round 2…

Our card shows that round to be 10-8 if favor of “the mad jewish professor”….

Lee the stoner will need a knockout in round 3 to take this fight…

stay tuned….