Beyond debate

It’s pretty much a distortion per day with these people.

Jonah Goldberg, editor-at-large of National Review Online, went on Fox News today to fan the flames of the latest fabricated “death panel” controversy.

Goldberg equated a Veterans Affairs pamphlet — one that’s reportedly no longer being used — with Nazi eugenics, saying “death panels may not be too far off the horizon.”

The pamphlet in question is one that, Fox reported this weekend, encourages disabled veterans to decide whether their lives are worth living. Tammy Duckworth, an assistant secretary of the VA, told Fox on Sunday that the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007.

It never stops. Manna could fall to all hungry people, and the righties would all it socialism, unless, of course, they could somehow take credit for it during a Republican administration.

Some days you really wonder if the Democratic leadership understands that they are not facing a traditional opposition political party. We’re facing a senseless, radical authoritarianism that lost power and now wants it back.

This month proves that beyond all doubt, and Democrats and their allies forget that at their own peril. You don’t debate these people, you don’t compromise with these people, you either beat them or you lose. It’s really that simple.

(Props to TPM.)

Comments

  1. 1

    spyder spews:

    So it turns out it is a Bush era document that even the killing obsessed minds of Bush/Cheney couldn’t really justify. I am sure it is all the fault of evil crazy leftists, right fucktard meatheads???

  2. 2

    Michael spews:

    I’d say I love it, but it’s just scary at this point. Some news outlet will go ahead and run Goldburg’s ranting as objective fact and then all the other will pick it up and say, well we’re not the only ones…

  3. 3

    Daddy Love spews:

    You don’t debate these people, you don’t compromise with these people, you either beat them or you lose.

    I’m fine with that. So we’ll beat them. That was always the plan anyway. We had to do outreach to the Republicans, in poart because it’s the right thing to do, and in part because it would graphically illustrate the levels of both pure obstructionism and pure crazy that they don’t hesitate to reach.

    But WAAAY back in April Harry Reid sent a letter to Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell warning him that Republicans had until the fall to be constructive partners on health care reform. But they’re not, and we know they’re not*, and America knows they’re not**, so we’ll use budget reconciliation rules to pass it with 51 votes (like the Republicans did with Bush’s tax cuts).

    And then we’ll stick the signed bill up Rush Limpdick’s ass.

    *
    “Just say no! Just say no! Just say no! Now Republicans — that’s going to be our chant from now until Election Day.” — Rep. John Shimkus (R-IL)

    **
    “I just hope the President keeps talking about it, keeps trying to rush it through. We can stall it. And that’s going to be a huge gain for those of us who want to turn this thing over in the 2010 election.” — Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK)

  4. 4

    Mike Damone has Cheap Trick tickets for sale spews:

    @3…LMFAO at “we”, “us”, “them”….are you really delusional enough to think that YOU are part of the democratic political machine? hahahahahahah. The politicos in DC(and OLY) dont give a fuck about you or me – and it doesnt matter if they have a D or an R behind their name.

    “they” have nothing in common with you – and dont give a damn about you. You are a tool – just as the republican die-hards are tools to their party.

    “us”, “we”, “them”…LOL, thats some funny shit.

  5. 5

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Well Jon it seems the NY Times may be changing their tune somewhat on elderly concerns…

    “WASHINGTON — White House officials and Democrats in Congress say the fears of older Americans about possible rationing of health care are based on myths and falsehoods. But Medicare beneficiaries and insurance counselors say the concerns are not entirely irrational.”

    Y’all can read the rest…

    But last week the NY Times had a different take…

  6. 6

    Daddy Love spews:

    But you’re behind the curve on this one. Yes, touting this Bush-era document on counseling veterans regarding living will and advance directives as a “death book” (yep, that’s what they’re calling it) is crazy, and a big fucking lie.

    But it’s yesterday’s big fucking crazy-ass lie. Today’s big fucking crazy-ass lie is even better:

    Republicans are going on the offensive and taking on the Democrats’ health care plan with a new “seniors’ bill of rights,” which calls for the president to not cut Medicare benefits in his health care overhaul.

    Let’s set aside for a moment that in 2005 the Republicans were trying to gut Social Security, and that their party has been trying to cut Medicare for a long time. Because this is even better.

    The brand new Republican so-called “seniors’ bill of rights” refers only to purely imaginary assaults on senior citizens’ medical care. You know like the ones charged by Michael Steele in a Washington Post op-ed, where he claims health care reform means cuts in Medicare benefits, that the government will make senior’s health care decisions, that health care will be rationed, that there will be death panels, and for good measure, that it will screw over veterans and their families (see “death books,” above). None of this is true (but you knew that).

    – The claim that Obama and Congress are cutting seniors’ Medicare benefits to pay for the health care overhaul is outright false, though that doesn’t keep it from being repeated ad infinitum (BTW, thanks, WaPo). None of the predicted savings – or cuts, depending on one’s perspective – come from reducing current or future benefits for seniors.

    – In response to fears that funding for Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER) allows the government to make decisions for doctors, FactCheck.org reported: “Some take that to mean the government would no longer allow certain treatments that are “more expensive” to be prescribed. But there’s no description of government force here.” CER simply provides information to allow doctors and patients to make intelligent choices about treatments.

    PolitiFact says: “Nothing in the House bill would affect veterans’ current coverage.”

    Why let the truth get in the way of some good old fashined fearmongering, though?

    So after the Republicans have humiliated and discredited themselves with their crazy-ass big fucking lies, and then (again) humiliated themselves by losing on the health care reform bills, they think they will use these failures to persuade Americans who watched them ruin the world economy and put 16% of us out of work (M6, includes underemployment) to put them back in power. And that’s the craziest shit of all.

    Lee, you have GOT to find out what these guys are smoking, because cancer patients could really use it.

  7. 8

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    You bet Jonah is right on track.
    And yet another OBAMA MISMANAGEMENT Error!!
    Great, “mistakenly” tell 1200 Gulf War Vets they have ALS. Excellent management skills.
    More coding and computer problems.
    Need Algore who invented the internet to come to the rescue!

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0.....latestnews

    One screw up after another!
    Obama is in love with his voice and his look…but lacks the skill & character to be a leader.
    Instead, Obama is a chronic campaigner.

    I knew putting a KLOWN in charge would be one disaster after another.
    Fun to watch….sad for the country.
    So the OBAMA Death Panel is already at work…scaring the crap outta Vets making them believe they have ALS!
    Sick Bastard that Obama.

  8. 9

    proud leftist spews:

    Today’s GOP can’t win a fair fight. The electorate, if presented with pure policy options, will kick the GOP’s ass. So, GOP leadership (Limbaugh, et al.) knows any policy debate must be dragged into the gutter, where facts and figures don’t count. All that matters is anecdote, personalities, and scare tactics. You’d think these people would be ashamed, but shame is not something they do.

  9. 10

    ArtFart spews:

    I won’t make any statements on whether anyone’s life is worth living, but I’m more than willing to say that none of Goldberg’s crap is ever worth reading.

  10. 11

    ArtFart spews:

    @7 Cyn, I’m disappointed in you. Your prose is rapidly degenerating into the same sort of incoherent jargon-speak as Puddy’s.

    Nobody benefits from it, pal. It’s like you’re asking someone to watch you masturbate, and then saying “Was it good for you, too?”

    From what I can decipher from your gibberish, you’re trying to say something accusatory about the way the VA under the present administration is dealing with veterans with some difficulty or other…and citing the second least credible source on the planet after the Washington Times. It’s beyond laughable for anyone on the right to make any statements about medical care of current or former members of our military after your guys turned Walter Reed into a fucking chamber of horrors.

  11. 13

    proud leftist spews:

    I should have added to my post above that Cynical always runs when confronted. Curious thing, given how confrontational he is. What is it, Cyn, fearful of a real argument?

  12. 15

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    ArtFart-Did you actually read the article?
    The Obama-ead VA notified 1200 Vets erroneously that they had ALS.
    Are you going to blame Bush?

    What is wrong with pointing out errors and mismanagement by the Obama Administration??
    You need to hold folks in power accountable…right?
    That’s what you KLOWNS have spewed for years…right?
    Accountability.
    So do we hide what the Obama-managed VA just screwed up on??
    WHERE DOES THE BUCK STOP NOW AF??

    Seems like you are struggling with being in power and the responsiblity and accountability.
    And you are disappointed in me??
    Proud Leftist is a ouchebag.
    He is sooooooooooo angry his Progressive Agenda has been waylaid!
    I t hought you were in power PL and you KLOWNS were gonna do all kinds of stuff to the rich folks??
    Seems like you are merely one of OBAMA’s USEFUL IDIOTS PL….sucker!

  13. 16

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Cynical

    ArtFart-Did you actually read the article?

    NOPE!

    Tooooooooooo

    Damnnnnnnnn

    Funnnnnnnnny

  14. 17

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Once again the HA libtardos are marched off the cliff with another Jon DeVore blog thread, but good Ol Puddy researches the topic and low and behold…

    Last year, bureaucrats at the VA’s National Center for Ethics in Health Care advocated a 52-page end-of-life planning document, “Your Life, Your Choices.” It was first published in 1997 and later promoted as the VA’s preferred living will throughout its vast network of hospitals and nursing homes. After the Bush White House took a look at how this document was treating complex health and moral issues, the VA suspended its use. Unfortunately, under President Obama, the VA has now resuscitated “Your Life, Your Choices.”

    “This hurry-up-and-die message is clear and unconscionable. Worse, a July 2009 VA directive instructs its primary care physicians to raise advance care planning with all VA patients and to refer them to “Your Life, Your Choices.” Not just those of advanced age and debilitated condition—all patients. America’s 24 million veterans deserve better.”

    Looks like one can find it right on the VA web site.

    And you all wonder why Puddy thinks you guys are a bunch of dumb cinderblocks! You all drink the kook-aid from TPM.

    Barack the Magic Negro
    Phony Soldiers
    Trigg is Bristol’s Baby
    *NOW* Your Life Your Choices is NOT on the VA Web site.

    Wait one minute… correctnotright claimed TPM fact checks.

    horsesass.org/?p=19192 Post #40.

    I will gladly copy from TPM. They have actual validity. They fact check.

    Yep you all are a bunch of lemmings.

    Yet on Fox News Sunday

    “It’s a 52-page pamphlet the Department of Veterans Affairs is using right now in end-of-life counseling for the nation’s 24 million veterans.”

    “My problem with the document, Chris, is that the author of it is a proponent of assisted suicide. He’s way out there on that issue. And the V.A. has been using this. A new directive just came out in July, urging providers to refer patients to it.” – Well he has his faithful coterie on HA Libtardos.

  15. 18

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Hey ArtFart, hopefully the PuddyProse is direct and on topic.

    You know what… IT IS!

  16. 19

    spews:

    @14, he does not have to resign because of what he said. The free market will dictate his future, sink or swim.

    Know your customers.

  17. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Some veterans I knew didn’t need the VA to tell them when their lives weren’t worth living. They knew when, and just got in a car and drove it into a bridge abutment and stepped in front of a train.

  18. 22

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @4 Oh, I don’t know about that … my life has certainly gotten better since Democrats replaced Republicans in D.C.

    In January, my stock portfolio was down 60%. Now, it’s down only 20%. If Republicans had won last year, we’d be at 15% unemployment by now and still climbing.

  19. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @8 So why didn’t Bush fix the VA’s computer system when he had the chance? For the same reason he sent our troops to Iraq without body or vehicle armor, of course. TO GIVE BIGGER TAX BREAKS TO BILLIONAIRES.

  20. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @8 (continued) I thought you “starve-the-beast” guys were against upgrading government computer systems? That costs money, you know.

  21. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @14 I won’t make any statement on whether your life is worth living, but you’re useless.

  22. 26

    headless: Rat City Runcible Spoon spews:

    re 5: “…the concerns are not entirely irrational.”

    What does that statement mean to you? ‘…Not… ENTIRELY …irrational.’

  23. 27

    spews:

    @25

    I was making a statement about the brown shirts who think the CEO of Whole Foods should resign because he dared to disagree with Obama.

  24. 28

    headless: Rat City Runcible Spoon spews:

    August is Obama’s rope-a-dope for Republican drecks who can’t say anything except ‘no’.

    That crap wears thin very quickly.

    Everyone knows the ‘free market’ crap is just cover for a corporate kleptocracy. A simple bromide for the simple-minded. A panacea for the peptic and irrascible clowns of the right whose size 15 floppy shoes can be heard swishing angrily as they gather with guns to shoot each other in the foot.

    “Go ahead”, they proclaim, “squeeze my shiny-red wheeze. People often do!”

  25. 29

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Hopefully most HA Libtardos who claim they don’t read Puddy entries skipped post #17 so they can stay ignorant.

  26. 30

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Look at dumb bunny post #20.

    The pamphlet was started in 1997 under the Clintonistas fool!

    Oh wait… rujax! said Pelletizer is better. Better at what?

    [] Being stupid
    [] Diarrhea in a thread
    [] Being slow of mind and idiotic
    [] All of the above

  27. 31

    headless: Rat City Runcible Spoon spews:

    re 27: Did they show up with assault rifles at corporate headquarters?

    It’s their constitutional right, you know.

    You can attempt to paint Progressives as brownshirts all you want, but in this country, a picture is worth a thousand words. And there are lots of images of Republican ‘tards standing around with guns with every intention of intimadating people.

    Kinda like Brownshirts.

    Who you callin’ Brownshirt, Brownshirt?

  28. 34

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Now the world greatest HA libtardo racist wants a link. What a tool. HAsn’t read post #17. Just like ArtFart above.

    “The following is a 1997 publication that was produced under VA IIR Grant No. 94-050, “Development of an Advance Care Planning Workbook,” 4/01/95 – 3/31/97.”

    Stay stupid… Nuff SAID Sucka

  29. 35

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Hey headless maybe the black man with the assault rifle was there to protect “his messiah”.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…?

  30. 36

    YLB spews:

    Jonah Goldberg the “liberal fascism” guy.

    What a freaking joke…

    The bigger joke is all the idiots who actually shelled out money for that clown’s book.

    Faux News finds a way yet again to sink even further into all out batshit insanity.

    Way to go Stupes @ 17!

    To quote a piece of right wing bullshit from a former (thankfully) White House Bushie.

    The sick fool actually lasted 4 f’ing years in that job.

    From the comments section to that piece of WSJ editorial page crap:

    Read the thing for yourself!

    I’m a disabled veteran. Despite living with increasingly intense chronic pain and expressing to my physician my reluctance to live much longer, NO doctor or bureaucrat has ever suggested my life is not worth living. As a matter of fact I was referred to suicide prevention counseling and support groups. As a matter of fact, I’m disappointed that this pamphlet has not been recommended to me. I read it for the first time tonight after reading Mr. Towey’s very inaccurate article. This document asks the questions about quality of life and what the veteran considers an acceptable life condition. We, the veterans of the United States of America, have faced the terror of muzzle flashes in our faces, hot searing lead in our bellies and seen our own lifeless limbs lying yards away from us on the battle field (or street in our latest campaign). Do you really think we are unable to handle the real question of quality of life in realistic terms.

    Mr. Towey is propagating lies…

    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....ment397173

  31. 37

    Mike Damone has Cheap Trick tickets for sale spews:

    @7…well when YOU put present the issues as “us”, “we”, and “them”, the conversation has nothing to do with issues. Even YOU should be able to figure that out…or perhaps not.

    Nothing but a bunch of drones here…like most blog sites.

  32. 38

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    What is wondermoron saying above? The pamphlet isn’t available on the VA web site?

    What subterfuge and deflection from wondermoron.

    “The following is a 1997 publication that was produced under VA IIR Grant No. 94-050, “Development of an Advance Care Planning Workbook,” 4/01/95 – 3/31/97.”

    Nuff SAID Sucka

  33. 39

    YLB spews:

    Oooopsey Stupesy..

    Another comment on the POS Twoey article:

    Wait a minute, Democrats don’t care about Veterans? You are kidding right? Last time I cheked, then Senator Obama served on the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee, Co-Sponsored the New GI Bill, and had one of the highest pro-Veteran voting ratings from the largest Veteran Service Organizations in the world. He followed that up with the largest Budget increase for the Department of Veterans Affairs (percent AND Dollar) in over thirty years! Democrats are putting their money where their mouth is when it comes to Veterans – this kind of hyperbole needs to be called out for what it is – partisan game playing and fear mongering.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....ment391087

  34. 40

    Mike Damone has Cheap Trick tickets for sale spews:

    @22..big fucking deal you dumb rabbit. The stock market is cyclical, doesnt matter who is in power. Why dont you nut up and do that same comparison from 2000(clinton) and 2006(bush)….so much for your logic..go back to being a tool – at least you cant fuck that up.

  35. 41

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Oopsie Stupsie? What is wondermoron saying above again? The pamphlet isn’t available on the VA web site? wondermoron read down to comment #117 to find something to post? Wow wondermoron, you outdo yourself again in the same thread.

    “… tonight after reading Mr. Towey’s very inaccurate article. This document asks the questions about quality of life and what the veteran considers an acceptable life condition.”

    But TPM claimed it was no longer available on the VA web site through their post used by “smart” Jon.

    What subterfuge and deflection from wondermoron.

    “The following is a 1997 publication that was produced under VA IIR Grant No. 94-050, “Development of an Advance Care Planning Workbook,” 4/01/95 – 3/31/97.”

    Nuff SAID Sucka

  36. 42

    YLB spews:

    38 – This moron just can’t read.

    Not saying the pamphlet doesn’t exist.

    Saying that WSJ editorial from Twoey you found is a POS.

    Learn to fucking read.

  37. 43

    Mike Damone has Cheap Trick tickets for sale spews:

    @24….you mean like the one Ron Sims brought King County?

  38. 44

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    wondermoron@42, Your commentary is irrelevant as always. The thread post claimed the document was no longer used.

    It is still used. To quote the idiot above with his own words “Learn to fucking read.”

    Learn to fucking read. Again

    Learn to fucking read. Again

    LMBBAO!

  39. 45

    YLB spews:

    44 – And the vet in the comments said he never heard of it until he read the POS WSJ piece.

    It’s a FACT that Obama has increased spending on the VA.

    YOU QUOTED THAT POS from a former Chimp follower.

    HE IS FULL OF SHIT JUST LIKE YOU!

  40. 46

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    And the vet in the comments said he never heard of it until he read the POS WSJ piece

    Wow wondermoron, what does that really mean? Maybe no one ever discussed it with him fool. Your commentary is irrelevant as always. You’re even more unintelligible now. Puddy would tell you to quit while you aren’t looking too moronic but you’d write: “I don’t listen to right-wing idiots”, so keep digging your own grave wondermoron!

  41. 47

    YLB spews:

    Another interesting comment:

    Well, Mr. Scanlan, the motive of this op ed might be clear if the author had revealed that he has been trying to sell , HIS book that he mentions in the article to the government for years, for millions of dollars.

    That might also have something to do with his complaining that the panel set up by the VA had no faith based representatives. According to the VA, the panel had a priest and a rabbi on it. He also failed to mention that the President of the foundation that publishes HIS book, Five Wishes, was ALSO on the panel.

    This guy has played WSJ readers for rubes, and he has played many of us like fiddles.

    YOU’VE BEEN PLAYED for years Stupes!

    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....ment402883

  42. 48

    YLB spews:

    Maybe no one ever discussed it with him fool.

    You stepped in it now. From the Twoey bullshit:

    a July 2009 VA directive instructs its primary care physicians to raise advance care planning with all VA patients and to refer them to “Your Life, Your Choices.” Not just those of advanced age and debilitated condition—all patients.

    YOU, YOURSELF have contradicted the WSJ bullshit you imply is credible.

    Hint: it’s not. It’s just Chimpie’s “leave behinds” trying to stay relevant in the Murdoch papers.

  43. 49

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Somebody get wondermoron on meds quick…Here is the post wondermoron copied from comment #117

    I’m disappointed that this pamphlet has not been recommended to me. I read it for the first time tonight after reading Mr. Towey’s very inaccurate article.

    For the final time wondermoron, the pamphlet is still on the VA website. The man’s own comment you provided claimed he never heard of it. Sooooooooooooo it means the VA doesn’t follow “the messiah’s” directives. Not only is your commentary is still irrelevant as always but now it went stratospherically moronic on this thread.

    He doesn’t even read what he copies. To quote the idiot above with his own words “Learn to fucking read.”

    Learn to fucking read. Again

    Learn to fucking read. Again

    LMBBAO!

    End of Story.

  44. 50

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Puddy would tell wondermoron to quit while you aren’t looking too moronic but too late. You went stratospheric!

    Maybe Puddy should call you SpongeBob Squarepants for sponging the left-wing crap.

  45. 51

    Rujax! spews:

    Shorter pudlessbitch:

    I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…I am never wrong…

    …just ask me.

  46. 52

    YLB spews:

    49 – AND THERE”S NO DEATH PANELS ASSHOLE. IT”S A RIGHT WING FANTASY.

    Where’s the evidence of a “directive”? Got an executive order? Another Stupes paranoid fantasy. Go figure.

    The Twoey bullshit is not credible. Goldberg is a clown.

    YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT AS USUAL.

  47. 53

    YLB spews:

    The thread post claimed the document was no longer used.

    Nope. You’re wrong. The post said the VA stopped using it in 2007. That’s consistent with the facts.

    No one here or at TPM has said it HAS NOT started to be used again during the Obama Administration.

    So far I’ve seen no evidence that any VA doctor or counselor or whatever has used the pamphlet since 2007. TPM claims Faux is saying that returning soldiers are getting the pamphlet.

    Sounds like something Faux would say. TO GIN UP FEAR THROUGH RIGHT WING BULLSHIT!

  48. 54

    Steve spews:

    Can there be any doubt that Puddy has totally lost it? It’s like he’s posting from some alternate universe. Klynical’s lost it too. They’re both become like comment thread equivalents of those crazies screaming on street corners you try to avoid eye contact with. Truly, they’ve both gone batshit-crazy on us.

  49. 56

    Steve spews:

    @55 Er, having reviewed Puddy’s posts going back to 2005, I take it all back. The fucker has alway been batshit-crazy. Klynical too, for that matter. That said, both these fuckers have taken it to a newer, higher, previously unobtained level of batshit-craziness lately. And that’s not even to mention the strange doings of that goatfucker, Marvin.

  50. 58

    proud leftist spews:

    Puddy,
    Do you have a clue how juvenile you are coming across now? It hurts to lose. I know that, I’ve been there. But, you must learn to deal with your losses and grow from them. Puddy, my friend, your posts are becoming less and less intelligible. Your posts are becoming like Cynical’s–he who abandoned reason a long time ago. Don’t go there, Puddy. Don’t jump into the bog of Endless Nonsense. You can do better. Think, baby, think.

  51. 59

    Steve spews:

    @58 Too late, PL. He’s beyond the Kool-Aid. He’s gone beyond talking points. Puddy has reached the Mr. Klynical level of batshit-crazy by plunging head first into the batshit-crazy abyss. Sorry, but there just ain’t no coming back. Time to let go, PL. So sad.

  52. 60

    proud leftist spews:

    59
    Damn, I had hoped Puddy could be saved. I guess we must lay him in the tomb of festering corpses–Cynical, all the Marks, Troll . . . Perhaps Marvie could blow Taps?

  53. 61

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Look at all the HorsesASSHoles on this blog who apparently didn’t read the TPM reference…

    “The pamphlet in question is one that, Fox reported this weekend, encourages disabled veterans to decide whether their lives are worth living. Tammy Duckworth, an assistant secretary of the VA, told Fox on Sunday that the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007.

    But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet.

    Okay fools what is inferred and what is implied morons?

    Wait… Puddy will hear crickets chirp because there won’t be a cogent answer.

  54. 62

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Here is the directive page 12. If doctors were directed to stop in 2007 per Tammy Duckworth, why is it here?

    VA must provide additional information about advance directives and/or assistance in completing forms for all patients who request this service. This assistance may be provided by social workers, or others who are appropriately trained, and must be available to patients in all clinical settings.

    a. Content. Designated practitioners need to ensure that the patient understands the meaning of advance care planning and advance directives, including the information listed in
    subparagraphs 8b to 8f. For patients who already have an advance directive, practitioners also need to cover points in paragraph 8g and 8h. Possible clinical scenarios and treatment options need to be discussed with attention and sensitivity to the patient’s individual circumstances, needs, and culture. Patients may be directed to the exercises in “Your Life, Your Choices”
    (available on My HealtheVet at the web site http://www.myhealth.va.gov), or other published
    resources.
    PuddyEmphasis.

    from spongebob wondermoron

    No one here or at TPM has said it HAS NOT started to be used again during the Obama Administration.

    Really? TPM adds “But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet.”

    What is that insistence HA Libtardos?

    The Prosecution Rests!

  55. 64

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    spongebob wondermoron

    49 – AND THERE”S NO DEATH PANELS ASSHOLE. IT”S A RIGHT WING FANTASY.

    Where does the article say “death panels”

    Square Pants ASSHOLE?

  56. 66

    spews:

    Puddybud @ 62,

    I direct your attention to the first page of the “directive” (which isn’t a directive, it is a revised handbook…see next comment) you’ve linked to:

    VHA HANDBOOK 1004.02

    ADVANCE CARE PLANNING AND MANAGEMENT OF ADVANCE DIRECTIVES

    1. REASONS FOR ISSUE. This Veterans Health Administration (VHA) Handbook further defines procedures for enabling health care staff to fulfill their obligation to support advance care planning for Veterans.

    2. SUMMARY OF MAJOR CHANGES.

    a. In the previous version of this Handbook, “close friend” was inadvertently omitted from the list of authorized surrogates established in Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) regulation (Title 38Code of Federal Regulations 17.32) and VHA Handbook 1004.1. This version:

    (1) Adds “close friend” to the list of authorized surrogates who can make treatment decisions for patients who lack decision-making capacity,

    (2) Defines “close friend,” and

    (3) Specifies documentation requirements that must be met for a close friend to assume the role of an authorized surrogate.

    b. The previously established procedure for handling disputes has not always resulted in effective resolution at the local facility level. This Handbook changes the procedure for resolving conflicts between a surrogate and the treatment team by requiring consultation with the National Center for Ethics in Health Care on conflicts that the local ethics consultation service is unable to resolve. It also ascribes specific responsibilities to the National Center for Ethics in Health Care.

    c. This version of the Handbook clarifies that facilities must use the national note titles relating to advance care planning as described in this policy, and outlines specific expectations for facilities that are not currently using the national note titles.

    3. RELATED ISSUES. None.

    4. RESPONSIBLE OFFICE. National Center for Ethics in Health Care (10E). Questions are to be addressed to the Ethics Center at (202) 501-0364.

    5. DOCUMENTS RESCINDED. VHA Handbook 1004.2, dated February 22, 2007.

    In other words, the 2009 document (1004.02) is the same as the 22 Feb 2007 handbook (1004.2), but with the addition of some clarifications about using “close friend[s]” as an optional authorized surrogate. The changes are entirely unrelated to the choice of living will planning/instructional material.

    In other words, the stuff you cited:

    Patients may be directed to the exercises in “Your Life, Your Choices” (available on My HealtheVet at the web site http://www.myhealth.va.gov), or other published resources.

    …was inherited directly from the 2007 document.

    I suspect, when all the paranoia and political smoke clears, we will learn that the “Your Life, Your Choices” was mandated through 2007. At that point the handbook was changed to make “Your Life, Your Choices” just one possible living will planning/instructional document.

    I’ll rephrase that:

    If you actually read the handbook, you see that the use of “Your Life, Your Choices” is not mandatory; it probably was until 2007.

    That’s an educated guess, based on the revision history I quoted above, and the incomplete or inadequate information coming from the media.

  57. 67

    spews:

    Puddybud,

    Another interesting point during the Chris Wallace interview with Duckworth is that Wallace confuses a VA Secretary Directive with use of the term advanced directive (that is, a living will) in the VHA handbook.

    WALLACE: Secretary Duckworth, that’s just not true. The VHA put out a directive on July 2, 2009, and I want to put up two pages from that directive. The first one, Page 8….

    DUCKWORTH: The only directive that is out there is actually left over from — I believe it was beginning of 2007

    Wallace was obviously confused; he thought that the phrase “advanced directives” used in the VHA Handbook title (“ADVANCE CARE PLANNING AND MANAGEMENT OF ADVANCE DIRECTIVES”) was a VA secretary directive.

    Not so…the phrase “advanced directives” as used in the handbook means, essentially, a living will. From page 1 of the VHA handbook:

    Passage of the Patient Self-Determination Act (PSDA) in 1990, codified into Federal law the right of all patients with decision-making capacity to state their treatment preferences in advance, and the related responsibilities of health care organizations. The PSDA applies only to those health care organizations that participate in Medicare and Medicaid, but it provides the model and context for VA policy on advance care planning. Specifically, the PSDA requires health maintenance organizations, hospitals, home care agencies, and nursing homes to assure that each patient receives, upon admission or enrollment, written information regarding their right to accept or refuse medical treatment, and an opportunity to express, in an advance directive, their preferences concerning future medical care. The PSDA further requires health care providers to ask each patient if they have an existing advance directive and, if not, to offer
    assistance in completing one.

    In other words, Wallace was massively wrong. He simply didn’t know what he was talking about in that interview.

  58. 68

    ArtFart spews:

    We may certainly hope that Cynical and Puddy have signed durable-power-of-attorney forms and living wills, because they’re clearly incompetent.

  59. 70

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Darryl,

    If you actually read the handbook, you see that the use of “Your Life, Your Choices” is not mandatory; it probably was until 2007.

    Puddy doesn’t have to read the whole handbook. Puddy is only commenting on the TPM post.They led their “readers” to believe

    1) the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007.

    2) Fox News is lying about the pamphlet now.

    First Puddy directly linked to the part in question. You commented on it above.

    Second Puddy copied the TPM post especially the part NOT copied by Jon.

    “The pamphlet in question is one that, Fox reported this weekend, encourages disabled veterans to decide whether their lives are worth living. Tammy Duckworth, an assistant secretary of the VA, told Fox on Sunday that the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007.

    But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet. ”

    Yep I went to Media Morons and read their commentary. I read that Chris Matthews left off the “or other published resources.”

    While Wallace was wrong and Duckworth tried to correct him, that’s not Puddy’s point. Puddy’s point is how TPM framed their post for their “readers”.

    Just like:
    Exhibit A – Barack the Magic Negro
    Exhibit B – Phony Soldiers
    Exhibit C – Trigg is Bristol’s Baby

    All of these from TPM were out and out lies!

    If Jon used Crooks and Liars or Media Morons Puddy’s point would be mute. Jon chose to use TPM and it’s wrong how they worded their commentary. Where is the similar

    “But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet. ”

    secondary comment from either of those sites?

  60. 71

    spews:

    Puddybud,

    A couple of observations:

    First, Duckworth did say:

    …and let me make a correction. We’ve not used it since 2007, when under the Bush administration, we decided to go ahead and revise it.

    Unfortunately the conversation was led astray over Wallace’s confusion about “directive”. That left the meaning of Duckworth’s statement unclear. But, from what I can make out of the conversation, Duckworth suggests that Vets can use the book if they are willing to pay $5 for the hardcopy pamphlet themselves. I take this to mean that the VA used to purchase the hardcopy book for all vets prior to 2007, and now they will not do so until the revised version comes out next year.

    But what is absolutely clear is that Duckworth did state that the VA stopped using the book in 2007. The TPM post, if it is inaccurate at all, reads a bit more into it. I.e. they said, “the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007″ probably should say something like, “the department instructed VA doctors that the VA won’t pay for the hardcopy form of the pamphlet anymore in 2007.” And the part Jon quoted is completely accurate:

    …[a pamphlet] that’s reportedly no longer being used.

    A second point is this. Has the irony escaped you that you seem to imply that TPM lies when you acknowledge that

    While Wallace was wrong and Duckworth tried to correct him….

    By your logic, that mean that FOX News must lie. Or is it just Wallace who lies? Or what?

    The fact is, FOX News made an egregious error in that report (confusing a VHA Directive with a living-will type directive). Wallace’s misunderstanding was the major focus of that segment. It was so “off” from reality that Duckworth couldn’t even understand him enough to correct the error. And Wallace’s error is a big reason there is lingering confusion over what, exactly, the VA did in 2007.

    Compared to Wallace’s mistake, the TPM report is pretty accurate. The focus of the TPM report was Johah Goldberg, and the meaning of the article is not substantively altered by the misunderstanding over whether the VA stopped paying for and distributing paper copies of the pamphlet or whether the VA told physicians to stop using the pamphlet.

    Personally, I don’t think either error justifies calling the news organization or the reporter a liar. That is just hyperbolic nonsense. But, what we see is that FOX News’ reporting was incredibly sloppy.

    Any person of ordinary intelligence should have been able to figure out what “advanced directive” meant. That Wallace and the FOX News people didn’t is simply stunning. It betrays a stunning level of incompetence!

    Third point. You keep listing a small number of “exhibits” that support your opinion that TPM lies. But, given your overreaction in this case, I would like to evaluate your evidence. Perhaps you can link to Exhibit A, B, and C, so that I can evaluate you claims that TPM lies.

  61. 72

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Darryl, Puddy isn’t going back to cover those TPM points previously covered. You can see them.

    Also Darryl you are focused on the Wallace Duckworth interchange. Did you miss what Puddy said above. Puddy also covered Wallace

    While Wallace was wrong and Duckworth tried to correct him, that’s not Puddy’s point.

    My contention is the last part of the TPM comment…

    “But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet. ”

    No HA Libtardo will touch this because it’s radioactive to the TPM comment.

    Your additional

    The focus of the TPM report was Johah Goldberg, and the meaning of the article is not substantively altered by the misunderstanding over whether the VA stopped paying for and distributing paper copies of the pamphlet or whether the VA told physicians to stop using the pamphlet.

    proves to me why TPM is way off base by adding

    “But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet. ”

  62. 73

    spews:

    Puddybud @ 72,

    “Darryl, Puddy isn’t going back to cover those TPM points previously covered. You can see them.”

    That’s too bad. Can you link to where you have discussed the “lies”? If you are unwilling or unable, I’ll just treat your accusation as typical hyperbole.

    “Also Darryl you are focused on the Wallace Duckworth interchange. Did you miss what Puddy said above. Puddy also covered Wallace
    While Wallace was wrong and Duckworth tried to correct him, that’s not Puddy’s point.”

    Of course I saw that, dummy…I quoted those words in my previous comment!

    ‘My contention is the last part of the TPM comment…
    “But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet. ”
    No HA Libtardo will touch this because it’s radioactive to the TPM comment.’

    I didn’t “touch it” because I couldn’t fathom what you were getting at @ 70. The statement is objectively true. For example:

    Wallace: …last month, more than a month ago — VA health practitioners were told to refer all veterans — not just end-of-life veterans, but all 24 million veterans — to this document, “Your Life, Your Choices.”

    Wallace almost descends into apoplexy trying to contradict Duckworth. If anything, the case is understated in the TPM article, since Wallace suggests that ALL veterans are encompassed by the non-directive, and the TPM article limits the non-directive to returning vets.

    On the other hand, Megyn Kelly seems to imply that the “directive” is for hospitalized vets only:

    …asking physicians at the nations VA hospitals to refer our veterans to a pamphlet…

    The confusion as to who it refers to arises because it is a made-up “directive!”

    ‘proves to me why TPM is way off base by adding
    “But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet. ”’

    But…how is this not true? I am truly baffled by (what I believe is) your assertion. Please clarify.

  63. 74

    Rujax! spews:

    I love watching the puddybitch defend his right to bee absofuckinglutely wrong.

    His wife (maybe no one will put up with him…I could see how that would happen) probably won’t leet him get a word in edgewise so he takes it out here.

  64. 75

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Darryl, rujax! and his idiocy aside, (when has he ever brought a cogent thought to the table) let’s go back to the TPM comment…

    Tammy Duckworth, an assistant secretary of the VA, told Fox on Sunday that the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007..

    But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet. ”

    What is implied and inferred by that highlighted?

    And don’t say it’s irrelevant because that’s Jon DeVore’s opening to this thread.

  65. 76

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Darryl, these were covered by previous HA Postings

    Phony Soldiers

    On April 26, 2007 Rush describes his Barack The Magic Negro Parody with “Drive-By Media Misreporting of “Barack the Magic Negro” Song, and April 27, 2007. Listen To It! … (Los Angeles Times: Obama the ‘Magic Negro’ – David Ehrenstein)” TPM decidedly only carried this on April 27th…

    Right now it seems TPM took down their Bristol baby post like Daily Kos did.

    ArcXix / Daily Kos: [different links] here and below…
    Sarah Palin Is NOT The Mother [Photos+Video]
    Link Search: Technorati, Google, IceRocket, and Ask
    +
    Discussion: Alan Colmes’ Liberaland, Whiskey Fire, Wake up America, NewsBusters.org and Hoffmania! Still searching…

  66. 77

    spews:

    Puddybud @75,

    “What is implied and inferred by that highlighted?”

    I take that to mean that Duckworth said that the VA quit using the pamphlet in 2007.

    Do we agree, so far, that this claim is unambiguously correct simply upon viewing the Duckworth interview?

    Then…I read then next highlighted sentence as suggesting that FOX News reported that Vets were receiving the pamphlet AFTER Duckworth said they weren’t.

    In the very same interview, Wallace disagreed with Duckworth’s assertion, after she made it.

    Furthermore, Kelly repeated a similar statement, although that may not be relevant to our discussion if she made it earlier than the Duckworth interview. I don’t know the order the two segments ran in.

    So…do you get something else out of the statements that I have overlooked?

  67. 79

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Darryl,

    So…do you get something else out of the statements that I have overlooked?

    Nope. But adding Megyn Kelly’s comments is confusing the Jon DeVore issue.

    TPM is attacking Jonah Goldberg. You can’t add comments from Crooks and Liars because TPM didn’t reference them.

    Jonah Goldberg, editor-at-large of National Review Online, went on Fox News today to fan the flames of the latest fabricated “death panel” controversy.

    Later they refer to

    Duckworth said that the VA quit using the pamphlet in 2007.

    Then TPM follows with

    FOX News reported that Vets were receiving the pamphlet AFTER Duckworth said they weren’t.

    This is what my bone of contention with TPM. They repeat the Duckworth comment and immediately diss Fox with the FOX News reported that Vets were receiving the pamphlet AFTER Duckworth said they weren’t. See the real issue? TPM is being disingenuous! They are attacking Jonah Goldberg by saying Duckworth said the pamphlet is not being used since 2007. Adding Crooks and Liars or Media Morons to the argument is irrelevant because TPM never references them and only refers to the Fox interview to present Duckworth’s comments. Puddy added Media Morons because Chris left off those last words and Puddy agreed to it.

    Too bad the other lesser HA Libtardos can’t see the issue.

  68. 80

    spews:

    Puddybud,

    Thanks for the response.

    “This is what my bone of contention with TPM. They repeat the Duckworth comment and immediately diss Fox with the FOX News reported that Vets were receiving the pamphlet AFTER Duckworth said they weren’t.”

    But this is factually true. The FOX News video at the TPM link has Megyn Fox chatting with Goldberg, and she leads into the conversation saying that Vets were receiving the pamphlet. (I now see that the Duckworth interview was on Sunday, and the Megyn Fox interview of Goldberg was on Monday, so we have no issues of mixed-up chronological order).

    “See the real issue? TPM is being disingenuous! They are attacking Jonah Goldberg by saying Duckworth said the pamphlet is not being used since 2007.”

    Huh??? But Duckworth DID say that. The TPM article refers to two FOX News pieces, the first is the FOX/Goldberg video from Monday and the second is referenced as:

    The pamphlet in question is one that, Fox reported this weekend…

    That IS true, too.

    “Adding Crooks and Liars or Media Morons to the argument is irrelevant because TPM never references them and only refers to the Fox interview to present Duckworth’s comments.”

    I agree that adding Crooks and Liars and MediaMatters is irrelevant. They are only a secondary source for the ACTUAL FOX News video and transcript. TPM didn’t even mention C&L or MM, so no issue there. They did mention the original source—FOX News—and did so appropriately.

    Really…I am not trying to give you a hard time here. I really don’t understand what it is about this TPM report that leads you to believe they are dishonest.

  69. 81

    Rujax! spews:

    Puddy is constitutionally incapable of admitting he’s wrong.

    That is the issue Puddy, and that is why I refuse to engage with you. You’re mind is completely closed to anything other than your point of view. You refuse to discuss. With the posssible exception of the last three posts, you pontificate and just expect anyone and everyone to roll over.

    Cogent enough for you…is that your “word of the day”?

  70. 82

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Darryl said

    (I now see that the Duckworth interview was on Sunday, and the Megyn Fox interview of Goldberg was on Monday, so we have no issues of mixed-up chronological order).

    Agreed. From the Megyn Kelly chopped video they attack Jonah Goldberg. Okay.

    Goldberg equated a Veterans Affairs pamphlet — one that’s reportedly no longer being used — with Nazi eugenics, saying “death panels may not be too far off the horizon.”

    The pamphlet in question is one that, Fox reported this weekend, encourages disabled veterans to decide whether their lives are worth living. Tammy Duckworth, an assistant secretary of the VA, told Fox on Sunday that the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007.

    FOX News reported that Vets were receiving the pamphlet AFTER Duckworth said they weren’t.

    See the distinction? They lead you to think the pamphlet is no longer in use (Duckworth’s own words), and Fox is still saying it is in use going to our disabled soldiers today. The pamphlet is still on the VA site and is still being used. Puddy gave you all the link to the pamphlet on the VA site. If it’s not being used why isn’t it removed from the VA site? Why can’t you see this Darryl? Puddy is using their own words.

  71. 83

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Hey rujax! fuck you moron. TPM said

    one that’s reportedly no longer being used

    but it’s still on the VA web site for download moron. The link was provided by Puddy. So smelly dingleberry…if it’s no longer being used why is it still on their web site fool? Why was it referred to again in July 2009 by the VA if it’s no longer being used? Most agencies remove pamphlets no longer being used.

    What a dumb cinder block!

  72. 85

    spews:

    Puddybud,

    Thanks for the clarification. I do believe I now understand your point.

    “The pamphlet is still on the VA site and is still being used.”

    It is on the web, but it is not being used by the VA.

    “If it’s not being used why isn’t it removed from the VA site?”

    Because the pamphlet was developed under a VA grant (VA IIR 94-050) so that the VA is required by law to archive it. (This was explained by Duckworth.)

    But it doesn’t matter whether or not it is on the web. Certain VA services mandated by law, including end-of-life consulting, absolutely requires that Vets be given written materials: From page 4 of the VHA HANDBOOK 1004.02 (ahem…the one I suggested you read @ 66):

    Specifically, the PSDA [Patient Self-Determination Act in 1990] requires health maintenance organizations, hospitals, home care agencies, and nursing homes to assure that each patient receives, upon admission or enrollment, written information regarding their right to accept or refuse medical treatment, and an opportunity to express, in an advance directive, their preferences concerning future medical care.

    This part of the handbook (the thing Wallace mistook for a “directive”) has not changed one letter since 2007.

    As Duckworth explained. The hardcopy version costs the VA $5 a piece, and the VA no longer purchases the pamphlet pending a revision due next year. Other written materials are used instead.

    So, to sum this up, by not understanding the archiving requirements (that Duckworth clearly explained), and not reading in the Handbook that there is a federal requirement that advanced care directive materials come in written form (something that I alluded to in numerous comments above with the word “hardcopy”), you mistakenly thought that TPM was “lying.”

    Do I have that right, Puddy?

  73. 86

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Nope You have some of it right Darryl. TPM is being disingenuous. The actual document says for the section under “RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONER”

    b. Giving patients pertinent educational materials (e.g., Refer patients to the “Your Life,
    Your Choices” module in MyHealtheVet at the web site http://www.myhealth.va.gov, or provide
    written material such as Appendix C).

    This is found on page 8. Also found on 9, 10 & 15 of that document. So if this document from July 2009 makes reference to the “Your Life,
    Your Choices” module, Duckworth isn’t telling the truth saying

    the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007.

    So Darryl what is a primary care practitioner in a VA hospital?

  74. 87

    spews:

    Puddybud,

    The clause:

    (e.g., Refer patients to the “Your Life,
    Your Choices” module in MyHealtheVet at the web site http://www.myhealth.va.gov, or provide
    written material such as Appendix C

    does NOT mandate YLYC. The abbreviation e.g. means “example.”

    More importantly, the wording in the handbook is unchanged from the 2007 version (the changes to the 2009 revision are clearly specified on the first page and do not include anything about the YLYC material). In other words, this is legacy text, left there in 2007, and probably in there for some years before that. There is zero evidence of changes with respect to YLYC in the 2009 revision.

    The VA stopped using the book in 2007, which means they no longer buy copies @ $5 each for distribution to Vets. Pretty clear.

    What is clear here is that you have made numerous factual errors, most likely influenced by egregious factual errors committed by FOX News.

  75. 88

    Rujax! spews:

    81. Rujax! spews:

    Puddy is constitutionally incapable of admitting he’s wrong.

    That is the issue Puddy, and that is why I refuse to engage with you. You’re mind is completely closed to anything other than your point of view. You refuse to discuss. With the posssible exception of the last three posts, you pontificate and just expect anyone and everyone to roll over.

    Cogent enough for you…is that your “word of the day”?

    08/25/2009 at 4:10 pm

    85. Darryl spews:

    So, to sum this up, by not understanding the archiving requirements (that Duckworth clearly explained), and not reading in the Handbook that there is a federal requirement that advanced care directive materials come in written form (something that I alluded to in numerous comments above with the word “hardcopy”), you mistakenly thought that TPM was “lying.”

    Do I have that right, Puddy?

    08/25/2009 at 5:14 pm

    86. Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Nope You have some of it right Darryl.

    Game, Set, Match, asshole.