Better than Hoover (Part VI)

The Dow Jones Industrial Average closed down almost 450 points today, at 10,609.66… only 22 points higher than where it stood on January 20, 2001, the day George W. Bush took office.

Adjusted for inflation, a $100 investment in a DJIA index fund just before Bush took office would now be worth only $81… but that’s still better than the approximately $69 a similar investment would be worth, had you invested in the broader S&P 500, which now stands down 186.15 points, or almost 14% off its pre-Bush close, or the inflation adjusted $55 value of a $100 investment in the NASDAQ Composite, down a stunning 32% over President Bush’s seven and a half years in office.

But, you know, John McCain bills himself as “the greatest free trader” and “greatest deregulator” ever, so who better to trust to fix the underlying causes of this unprecedented financial crisis?

Comments

  1. 1

    My Left Foot spews:

    So, wingfucks, ask yourself this:

    Are you better off now than you were eight years ago?

    There is only one correct answer.

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

  2. 3

    My Left Foot spews:

    Just a side note:

    With McSame’s “fundamentals” comment of yesterday and other various and sundry items, the Palin bounce has become the McSame plummet.

    Thank’s for playing.

  3. 6

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    1. My Left Foot spews:
    “So, wingfucks, ask yourself this:
    Are you better off now than you were eight years ago?
    There is only one correct answer.
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!

    MLF–
    My answer is HELL YA!!
    I just made $10k on a 2 day trade on NOV.
    This has been a banner year for me.
    If you spent as much time studying investment opportunities as you do reading whacked out LEFTIST PINHEADED BLOGS, you’d be a Republican.

  4. 7

    kirkregard spews:

    This is exactly why you don’t want to elect a lefty. This problem was brought upon by giving money to people who couldn’t pay it back.

    Trickle up economics apparently holds a shaky foundation that brings down the top tier.

    Now the same people who ran these places into the ground work as economic advisors on Obama’s campaign

    And what do we get, the nutroots begging and clamoring for more. unbelievable.

  5. 8

    Puddybud spews:

    That’s good yelling loser boy@2.

    Let’s see what Puddy said:

    Alan Greenspan was part of it – “While Alan Greenspan was cheering the sub-prime boom…”

    Obama’s economic advisor said in 2007 Subprime mortgages are good
    - “Gramlich praised CRA, saying last year, “banks have made many low- and moderate-income mortgages to fulfill their CRA obligations, they have found default rates pleasantly low, and they generally charge low mortgages rates.” - Now we know they were not good

    Here is a better article without the bias of yelling loser boys swill. http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms.....-Life.html – written in early 2005

    Except I haven’t ventured to Free Republic. All my info has been from the NY Times or the SF Chronicle.

  6. 9

    Puddybud spews:

    kirkregard:

    “CRA has motivated banks to make more than $4 trillion in loans and investments in minority and low–and moderate-income communities according to a database compiled by the National Community Reinvestment Coalition (NCRC).”

    Interesting. Now we see many of those $4 Trillion coming home yelling loser boy…

  7. 10

    My Left Foot spews:

    4 and 6:

    All the markets are down from the point when Bush took office. Gas has tripled in price, the real estate market is in shambles, the banking industry is near ruin.

    But you two clowns are better off?

    And the terrorists hit when who was president? I am safer now why?

    Just because you have imaginary “wins” in the market, Cyniclown, does not mean you are better off. As a whole, this nation is in the toilet and GWB and the Republican party are to blame.

    No worries though, President Obama will lead a turn around that you guys can ruin 25 years from now.

  8. 11

    My Left Foot spews:

    7:

    Hey asshole,

    Lemme see. Greed of the corporations had nothing to do with it? ROFLMAO that you actually try to float that ONLY LEFTIES borrowed this easy money. Bank loans and home loans are not political asshole. Greed belongs everyone.

    Nice try. Thanks for playing.

  9. 12

    michael spews:

    I just saw a clip from some talking head cable channel debating Joe Biden’s thoughts on the AIG crisis V. John McCain’s. I had to chuckle, shouldn’t they be debating Joe Biden’s thoughts V. Sarah Palin’s?

  10. 13

    ArtFart spews:

    7 Don’t distract that guy. He’s busy wanking off while watching the first half of Wall Street

  11. 14

    YLB spews:

    Huh?

    The evidence strongly suggests the latter. First, consider timing. CRA was enacted in 1977. The sub-prime lending at the heart of the current crisis exploded a full quarter century later. In the mid-1990s, new CRA regulations and a wave of mergers led to a flurry of CRA activity, but, as noted by the New America Foundation’s Ellen Seidman (and by Harvard’s Joint Center), that activity “largely came to an end by 2001.” In late 2004, the Bush [chimp] administration announced plans to sharply weaken CRA regulations, pulling small and mid-sized banks out from under the law’s toughest standards. Yet sub-prime lending continued, and even intensified — at the very time when activity under CRA had slowed and the law had weakened.

    Second, it is hard to blame CRA for the mortgage meltdown when CRA doesn’t even apply to most of the loans that are behind it. As the University of Michigan’s Michael Barr points out, half of sub-prime loans came from those mortgage companies beyond the reach of CRA. A further 25 to 30 percent came from bank subsidiaries and affiliates, which come under CRA to varying degrees but not as fully as banks themselves. (With affiliates, banks can choose whether to count the loans.) Perhaps one in four sub-prime loans were made by the institutions fully governed by CRA.

    75 percent of sub-prime loans HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CRA.

    Wingnuts, you are full of shit!

    See comment 2 for a link to the article.

  12. 15

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I got my clock cleaned this week. But Mr. Cynical, who is as truthful as Snow White, says he made $22,000 yesterday! He must have shorted GOP Inc.

  13. 16

    rhp6033 spews:

    Come to think of it, I personally know maybe a couple dozen people who are in foreclosure.

    Six are people I know are from my church. Out of a total of eight people I know who got late into the “flipping real estate” game, they were hoping to make some money like “the big boys did”. They came to me for advice, but didn’t want to hear my “rehab and add value, keep a good equity cushion” advice. Too slow for them, they wanted to make money fast.

    So they borrowed heavily, using “liar’s loans”, where they write down whatever income figure allows them to get the loan, without documentation. One of them had three properties in Bellevue in play at the same time. They were simply putting down minimal earnest money, and then trying to sell again before closing. One of them made about $50,000 dollars doing this before he cashed out of the game. Another got out a bit later, and after expenses made about $10,000 (not worth the sleepless nights, he said). The other six stayed in too long and the ponzi scheme collapsed, taking them with them. Those six not only lost two or more properties, but two of them are being sued by the banks for banking fraud, and are in danger of losing their residences due to the money they have to put up for lawyer’s fees.

    Guess what. They are all rather radical Republicans.

    All the rest are people who are in foreclosure for non-investment reasons. I’ve come to know most of them through debt counseling I do at our church. Some of them took the opportunity to re-finance at the lower rates, and got caught by the APR jumping up (pre-payment penalties prevented them from re-financing sooner).

    Others were first-time buyers, who were pushed into sub-prime loans by the real estate agents and mortgage brokers who got a big fee for getting the buyers to sign the most profitable loans the mortgage company can write. They could afford the mortage payments when they got the mortgage, and even more if they had to. But a lot of them have “balloon” payments due at the end of two years, requiring them to refinance or pay off the mortgage in full at that time. Because property values have decreased, they are “under water”, and can’t re-finance under any terms. With the banks unwilling or unable to negotiate, they have no choice but to walk away from the home.

    Some of them are Republicans, and some are Democrats. But not one of them is in an area where loans were mandated by the Community Reinvestment Act. No federal law or regulation was requiring them to be lent money. The banks and mortgage companies actually PREFERRED to push the borrowers into sub-prime loans, because they were the most profitable. In some cases, they actually falsly told the borrowers that they couldn’t qualify for traditional mortgages, and HAD to rely upon a sub-prime loan instead.

    So the Republican Talking Point 2,856 is shown to be another lie. Despite Puddy’s assertions, Democrats did not hold a gun to the Bush administration’s head, or the bankers, and force them to make risky loans. They did it all on their own, because they saw the most profit there.

  14. 18

    Steve spews:

    @12 “shouldn’t they be debating Joe Biden’s thoughts V. Sarah Palin’s”

    I suspect that the neocons simply haven’t finished teaching Palin exactly what her thoughts are yet.

  15. 19

    rhp6033 spews:

    Oh, and the NEXT debt crisis in the making???? Credit Cards!!!!!

    The credit card industry has been making big money off what you could call sub-prime credit cards. If you want to see the marketing of these credit cards in action, go down to the next U.W. football game, and watch them go after the student market. They will offer “free” give-aways, “just for filling out the application – what have you got to lose????” So in return for a T-shirt or other trinket, the student applies for a credit card.

    Now, the credit card usually has two rates advertised. The first one, advertised on the front of the application, is the “teaser rate”. There are all sorts of limitations which apply to those teaser rates – some go to a higher rate after a few months, but all of them have a different rate on the back of the card – a “default rate” of between 25% and 30%. Of course, anybody who reads this says “Well, that doesn’t apply to me, I’ll make all my payments on time!”. Also hidden are a provision which allows the lender to escalate the rates any time the lender deems itself to be “insecure”, as well as provision for late payment fees ($39 to $49), or overlimit fees (also $39 to $49).

    Then the lender starts the process of gradually uping the credit limit while still keeping the student on the hook. Like a carnival barker, he keeps the prospect in long enough so they can’t easily bail out by paying off the balance. The credit limit goes up to $1,000, then $1,500, and then $2,000, maybe even $2,500.

    That’s when they hit. Several tactics come into play. They can send out the statements so it received in the mail by the student about ten days before the payment is due, but take ten days to process the payment (as allowed under the fine print). They can charge extra for taking payments over the phone or on-line (once credit card company charge $25.00 for a phone payment, and didn’t offer online payments). In other words, it’s impossible to make a payment on time unless you make the payment before you actually receive the bill.

    Then the late payment charges hit, which puts the borrower into overlimit situations causing another fee, and then the default interest rate kicks in.

    I know one student who was making $250 payments every month on a $3,000 balance (all she could afford), and still not getting it under the $2,500 limit so the extra charges kept accumulating. When she finally did get it under the limit, they reduced her credit limit, and kept charging an additional $49.00 per month overlimit fee. When we went through all the statements, we found that her actual purchases didn’t amount to even $500.

    Of course, this is all legal, because the terms are in the fine print of the credit card agreement (or amendments mailed every month or two), and as far as the Republicans are concerned that’s sufficient.

    Now, only three things keep these students paying on this bad debt. First, most are honest and want to pay their bills. Secondly, most are concerned about their future credit rating. And third, a lot of the time their parents pay the bill for them, when they really get into trouble and fess up to their parents that they don’t know how to fix it.

    What I want to know is…. with the economy going south, and these students graduating and having difficulty finding jobs, what are these credit card companies going to do when these students start defaulting on their payments en masse? What if their parents are also unemployed (or in foreclosure, or close to it), and unable to bail them out? How many banks who have been posting huge profits based upon these unsavory practices are going to have to restate their earnings and take big charges when it turns out a lot of these loans are worthless paper?

  16. 20

    Blue John spews:

    4 and 6:
    Way to put “Country First”.
    Typical Republican. “I got my money. To hell with you all.”

  17. 21

    Jim, (a genuine musician) spews:

    Think about it for a sec:

    McCain has a trophy wife (for a 72-year-old) who is worth $100M.
    Her fortune is in Budweiser holdings, generally reputed to be recession proof.

    Is there any wonder why he thinks the economy is fundamentally sound?

  18. 22

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Hey Rog–
    I’m looking to get back in to NOV if it falls under $50.
    I’m also looking at General Electric. It tanked today. Oversold.

    Now Rog–I told you my moves when I made them.
    Wells Fargo was down today.
    But I did make $10,000 on that 2-day NOV move.
    It was so much fun, I’m going to try again tomorrow.

  19. 23

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    20. Blue John spews:
    “4 and 6:
    Way to put “Country First”.
    Typical Republican. “I got my money. To hell with you all.”

    I’ve been sharing my vast knowledge and market moves for some time now BJ. I can’t force you to invest and take risks. You want me to feel sorry for a coward like you??

  20. 25

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    From Rasmussen–JUST IN!

    Obama 48%, McCain 46% as Race Tightens in Wisconsin
    Wednesday, September 17, 2008
    The presidential race continues to tighten in Wisconsin, where Barack Obama now leads John McCain by just two percentage points, 48% to 46%, according to the latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of voters in the state.

    Last month, it was a four-point race. A month earlier, in the first poll in the state since Hillary Clinton dropped out of the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, Obama had an 11-point lead over McCain 50% to 39%.

    OUCH!!
    Lots of states coming into play.
    ACORN better sponsor another Bruce Springsteen concert and bus in a bunch of New Yorkers to register to vote at the last minute like they did in 2004! Cheatin’ bastards in Milwaukee.

  21. 26

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    This could end it for the fringe lunatic left (that’s you KLOWNS).

    McCain camp responds: “This is a shocking invasion of the Governor’s privacy and a violation of law. The matter has been turned over to the appropriate authorities and we hope that anyone in possession of these emails will destroy them. We will have no further comment” . . . the feds are investigating. . .

    Sometime early this morning, between approximately 3:00am – 4:00am, members of an infamous group of hackers broke into Gov. Sarah Palin’s private Yahoo e-mail account. The incriminating discussion threads included screenshots of Palin’s e-mail and private e-mail addresses of her contacts. The threads have since been deleted.
    . . .
    The Gawker smear machine — see here for all the background you need — has posted private family photos of Palin’s children that were apparently stolen from the e-mail account.

    They have used Bristol Palin’s illegally obtained private cell phone number from her mom’s private account, recorded her voicemail message, and posted it on their website.

    They have reprinted her husband Todd’s private e-mail address and son Track’s private e-mail address.

    UNBELIEVABLE!
    The same idiots who claim their rights have somehow been violated. This will make a HUGE swing in the polls.

  22. 29

    Blue John spews:

    #23. I don’t know you. I don’t trust you. You could be some wildly rich day trader shill, or some pimply faced guy who looks and sounds like a fat Sean Penn, living in his mom’s basement, pretending to be rich, for all I know.

    I’m saddened by your lack of empathy. People are loosing their livelihoods, but all you can say is “Sucks to be you, I got mine.”.

    Where is your love of our country? Why is money more important the USA? Why are you so un-amercian?

  23. 30

    Blue John spews:

    I have ask this many times but I don’t recall any conservative giving an answer.
    Where is the world right now, is the culture that most lives the conservative fiscal and social values you want to create here in America?
    It doesn’t have to be an exact fit. I’m not going to say go move there. I want to see what a conservative utopia might look like.

  24. 34

    Don Joe spews:

    Puddy @ 17

    Again, yelling loser boy only looks at his article and discounts anything not from a lefty.

    Coming from the progenitor of the Puddy Parade of Partial Punditry, that’s quite a statement.

    What our Puddy friend has failed to notice is this rather subtle difference: we discount the wingnuts, because their arguments don’t hold water. Puddy discounts lefty’s, because, well, they’re lefty’s. Puddy can’t articulate how the lefty arguments are full of shit except to regurgitate the wingnut arguments that are, well, full of shit.

  25. 35

    Politically Incorrect spews:

    Hoover raised taxes at the start of the Depression. Wrong move. He was followed by FDR, whose policies prolonged the Deporession.

  26. 37

    YLB spews:

    27 – Great article. I like the summation:

    “Every great cause,” Eric Hoffer wrote, “begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” As a cause, conservatism may be dead. But as a stance, as a way of making judgments in a complex and difficult world, I believe it is very much alive in the instincts and predispositions of a liberal named Barack Obama.

    The idiotic wingnuts who come here to fling poo are deep into the right wing RACKET. They are simple-minded tools and probably not very well paid tools at that.

  27. 38

    Don Joe spews:

    PI @ 35

    Bullshit. There isn’t a remotely plausible causal chain between FDR’s policies and the length of the great depression. Put down the kool-aid. Walk away from the kool-aid.

  28. 39

    RobBob spews:

    Barney Frank…..he should be walking around in a damn pink/purple dinasour suit. But it’s not all his fault for sure. this doesn’t stand with just one party or one person.

    BTW – did you all vote to ammend the constitution so the Fed could spend our money on AIG late last night? I didn’t.

  29. 40

    I-Burn spews:

    @38

    I don’t know, offhand, whether the policies of FDR lengthed the great depression, or if they simply failed to mitigate it’s effects. An interesting question though might be this: Why then was the depression effectively over in Germany, long before the same thing occured in the US?

  30. 41

    rla spews:

    @40, it was called Fascism.

    I’m way way better off today than I was 8 years ago. Good fortune and maybe some good karma have been kind to me. I paid an obscene amount in federal tax last year. And what did I get for it? A bunch of dead Iraqi’s, a ruined national reputation, salaries for people who spend time trying to find ways around ethics laws. I paid salaries for people who sat in front of congress and couldn’t “recall” what job they had done. I paid for debt service for poor performance and extreme fiscal irresponsibility for 8/6 years. I didn’t pay for A LOT of stuff I’d really value…

    I’m better off, but my neighbors aren’t. I see more for sale signs around me than I’ve ever seen, even in my neighborhood. I know many people who have actually lost their jobs. Many more who fear losing their jobs.

    When Obama is elected, and he passes his tax package with the help of a solidly democratic senate, I’m one of the 1%ers who will pay far higher taxes. And to the horror of my republican friends, I’m okay with that. I might actually get something for it that I care about and value. Sure I’ll pay for stuff I don’t want to either, but the balance is likely to be far more favorable.

  31. 42

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 40

    I don’t know, offhand, whether the policies of FDR lengthed the great depression, or if they simply failed to mitigate it’s effects.

    No, you don’t. Nor, for that matter, are you able to intelligently discuss whether or not FDR’s policies actually mitigated the great depression, which leaves the rest of us to wonder why you chose to articulate that statement in the loaded way you did. If you don’t know something, off-handed or otherwise, why exclude a third possibility?

    Why then was the depression effectively over in Germany, long before the same thing occured in the US?

    Frankly, I think that’s a completely uninteresting question, because the answer is obvious. A far more interesting question is why would you ask that question and not the follow-up?

    Look, if you think you have some intelligent insight to bring to this discussion, then, by all means, say it.

  32. 43

    rhp6033 spews:

    rla@41: To be more specific, Germany never went through the “roaring 20’s” the way we did in the U.S. The Weimar Republican was a time of political and economic uncertainty. The legendary hyper-inflation of the early 1920’s was long over before the 1932 elections which gave the Nazis about one-third of the seats in the Reichstag, and the Versailles (sp?) reparations payments had been effectivly forgiven by international bankers and diplomates who realized that a stable Germany helped create a stable Europe. But Hitler took power, in part, because he took credit for the achievements of others who stabilized the economy and negotiated the eliminatin of reparations payments, and in part because the Nazis had no interest in a stable Germany. They preferred Germany in “crisis mode”, because eventually a tired public would be willing to turn to anybody who promised order and stability. The Nazis prevented the formation of a new government by refusing to take part in a coalition government unless Hitler was named Chancellor. Once he was named Chancellor, there were no free elections in Germany until 1948 (municiple elections in West Berlin).

    How did Germany avoid being drug in by the worldwide affects of the Great Depression? Well, Nazi social legislation had some affect. The Nazis forbid women from working in industry, thus reducing the excess labor pool. Secondly, Nazi legislation prevented workers from leaving their jobs without permission from the Party, thereby preventing worker mobility and keeping wages down. Third, the Nazis started some agressive public works programs which included a lot of re-armamant for war, as well as a few other show projecs (such as the Autobahn). Note that America did it in reverse, concentrating on infrastructure public works projects (dams, highways, etc.) and didn’t start re-arming until 1940.

    Now the thing about using war spending to boost the economy is that it is a temporary thing. You get a boost during the life of the contracts, but since the goods add no real value to the economy the boost quickly dies off. Kind of like a bottle rocket. The Nazi’s had a solution for this, however: use of the military to continuously expand into other territory and capture their resources. But like a Ponzi scheme, such a solution eventually collapses when it reaches the limits of it’s ability to expand.

    The U.S., on the other hand, was more like a diesel engine than a bottle rocket – a diesel engine takes a long time getting going and building up speed, but once it has a lot of power.

    The U.S. dam and highway projects were expensive, but they also paid off in big terms once the U.S. was in the war. The dams created massive amounts of electricity which were necessary for the production of aluminum, the primary componant of airplanes of the day. And the two atomic power plants which were part of the Manhattan Project, at Hanford, Wash. and Oak Ridge, Tenn., were placed near dams built during the Great Depression (the Oak Ridge site on the site of the uppermost dam in the Tennessee Valley Authority system). German scientists had scoffed at the claims that America had produced an atomic bomb, claiming that it would take decades to create enough fissionable material to make such a bomb, but not realizing the extent of the electrical resources we had available.

    Anyway, a tale of two economies. One went through it’s economic crisis early, but it’s recovery was hijacked and ruined by failed policies. The other triumped by investing in infrastructure – a much slower process which doesn’t bring immediate returns, but much more successful in the long run.

  33. 44

    Right Stuff spews:

    subprime and mortgage meltdown…..all traced back to Fannie and Freddie…..Run by whom????
    That’s right. Democrats….
    Why aren’t there any congressional hearings?
    Democrats…

    McCain tried to change and reform Freddie and Fannie in 2005. Who stopped it….Democrats…

    And yes, I am much better off than 8 years ago…why? because I am self reliant. I don’t expect a hand out. I understand that I’m not entitled to anything, and that I owe it to my family and those who have mentored me to succeed….Not becuase I deserve it, or am entitled to anything…
    Those that feel entitled are worse off…..

  34. 45

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    31. Blue John spews:
    #23 one more question. Mr. Cynical, are you a christian? If so, what denomination?

    Yes, non-denominational….and we gave over $20,000 so far this year to various causes from food banks to homeless shelters to church benevolence funds etc.

  35. 46

    rhp6033 spews:

    Right Stuff @ 44:

    I see you got your regular Talking Points memo from Rove & Co.

    Problem is, Bush didn’t try to “reign in” out-of-control banking practices in 2005. He tried to take away ALL controls, so that banks could make MORE risky loans, without the troublesome requirements that they also loan to minority communities which had been traditionally red-lined. He wanted banking and investment removed from Congressional oversight entirely, so that the Bush administration could do pretty much what it pleased – which was to give them carte blanche to do pretty much whatever they wanted.

    The Bush adminsitration proposals wouldn’t have affected the mortgage companies at all, only banks insured by the FDIC. And it wouldn’t have affected the sub-prime loan crisis because the mortgages issued under the Community Redevelopment Act (which Bush wanted to abolish) were actually much safer to the banks, on average, than the sub-prime loans they were dishing out in the more affluent communities.

    Sorry, but the more we look at these claims, the more they are seen to be bogus – another attempt to blame a Republican-caused problem on the Democrats, gambling that most voters don’t have the time or energy to research or educate an issue as complicated as banking legislation.

  36. 47

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd are most responsible for blocking legislation to regulate Fannie and Freddie.
    Oh and coincidentally Jim Johnson (Freddie and Lehman) was the HEAD of O-blah-blah’s V-P search team. Johnson made tens of millions of dollars during the heydays and helped create this disaster. And Raines?? Head of Fannie and O-blah-blah’s trusted financial adviser. What a joke. Raines made $90 MILLLION dragging Fannie down the tubes with his incompetence. Raines finally had to say Fannie’s financials could not be trusted to be accurate!!

  37. 48

    Don Joe spews:

    Dang, but the wingnuttia is out in full force this week. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd? I note the complete lack of any attempt to articulate a causal mechanism that leads back to the alleged culprits.

    No. The evidence is overwhelming to anyone who isn’t emotionally attached to a specific ideology. Deregulation, including some SEC rule exemptions for certain financial firms, is the culprit.

    We can blame a number of people, and I’m perfectly willing to accept that some Democrats, largely through capitulation (dare I use the word “appeasement”?) to Republicans in Congress, are also responsible for this. Regardless of whom you want to blame, however, the current financial crisis is a failure of Republican philosophy through and through.

    Republicans and other economic conservatives will never admit this basic, unequivocal truth. They all suffer from the same ailment in which ideology trumps reality.

  38. 49

    Right Stuff spews:

    @47 & 48
    No doubt that greed of folks like Lehman Bros. has hurt the economy. But the credit crisis, which compounds all companies carrying large debt, falls squarely at the feet of the largest (now completetly govt run ) mortgage companies Freddie and Fannie. Run by Democrats, and protected by Democrats….
    Where are the hearings? Where are the democrats who in 2006 promised oversight???????
    The Freddie/Fannie mess makes Enron look like a grain of sand on a beach….
    Why no perp walks? why no wailing from Democrats about it?????

    No, this falls on policies at Freddie and Fannie initiated back in 97… and any attempts to change Freddie and Fannie have been blocked by Democrats.

  39. 51

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 49

    But the credit crisis, which compounds all companies carrying large debt, falls squarely at the feet of the largest (now completetly govt run ) mortgage companies Freddie and Fannie.

    Your attempts to deflect attention away from the policy/ideology issues are getting both increasingly desperate and increasingly amusing. Now, you’re reduced to the equivalent of arguing that the explosion was caused by the collapse of some of the buildings that got blown up.

  40. 52

    Politically Incorrect spews:

    Don joe @ 38,

    You’re the one drinking the Kool-Aid, ace. FDR’s policies of socialism lengthened the recovery from the Depression. Plus the Federal Reserve had its head up its ass before and during during that period, too. The combination of Hoover’s blunder about taxes, FDR’s socialism and the Fed’s stupidity meant the Depression would last a long time. It actually didn’t end until after WWII, when FDR was dead. It took a war and a hell of a lot of personal suffering and savings to build up consumers’ wealth so that the market economy could return.

    FDR had that asshole JK Galbraith out there telling businesses what they could charge for their goods and services and how much they could produce. No wonder nobody wanted to do any business with and arrogant cone-head like Galbraith practicing “Harvard Socialism” like some moron fucking around with a Sodoku game.

    FDR’s policies caused the Depression to be more severe and to last longer than it should have. Hoover set the stage by raising taxes when the shit hit the fan in 1929. The Fed was also to blame for the initial collapse of credit. That was really, really stupid, and FDR’s programs made those Hoover & Fed mistakes worse.

  41. 53

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 52

    FDR had that asshole JK Galbraith out there telling businesses what they could charge for their goods and services and how much they could produce.

    First of all, that’s not even an accurate portrayal of what Galbraith did.

    Secondly, even if your allegation is true, you’ve offered no discussion of the mechanics connecting the supposed cause to the outcomes we saw.

    Seriously, if you want to convince anyone that I’m the one drinking the Kool-Aid and not you, you really do have to come back with something more substantive than proof by repeated assertion.

  42. 54

    rhp6033 spews:

    PI @ 52: Thanks for yet another installment in revisionist history.

    The Republicans have been trying for decades to find a way to blame FDR, their sworn enemy, for everything that’s happened in the world since he took office. This tactic (“maybe he didn’t start the Depression, but he made it worse or last longer”) doesn’t pass the smell test by those who lived through the Depression. It’s a convenient way to allege the unprovable and to attempt to smear the name of someone long dead and unable to respond themselves. There is NO credible evidence FDR’s policies extended the depression, only worthless speculation by those who believe only what they want to believe. A

    Arguing with those types is like arguing with the holocaust deniers, who I run into from time to time on the history boards. You can show them a mountain of evidence, and they simply refuse to believe it because it is contrary to what the want to believe. Consequently, its a waste of time arguing with them.

    On a more personal level, I remember my mother telling me about growing up in rural Alabama during the Depression. They didn’t have any electricity until 1938, because the privately-held utilities refused to string the wires to rural areas because they didn’t think it was profitable enough. That’s fair enough, I guess, but you should have seen them fight the Roosevelt administration when he established the Rural Electrification Program! They didn’t want to bring electricity themselves, but they wanted to reserve their monopoloy over the areas just in case sometime, in the distant future, they decided to do so. They even hired thugs to shoot at the power crews, pull down polls with tractors, and cut wires. Of course, they were all Republicans, ardent supporters of the Republican Party, and haters of F.D.R. and all things Democratic. That’s why the South remained solidly Democratic until the late 1960’s (in national elections), and locally Democratic until much later. People remembered.

    And while you are blaming FDR & the Fed, you might also want to consider Republican farm policies which provided much of the groundwork for the Depression. The U.S. farms were in a depression several years before the rest of the country faced it.

    At least Hoover was involved in flood relief efforts and started the creation of federal dams, I’ve always given him credit for that.

  43. 55

    rhp6033 spews:

    Don Joe @ 52:

    Personally, I think the Republican Party, the McCain campaing, or the Rove organization has organized a handful of bloggers to distribute the daily talking points as commentary on blogs everywhere. We’ll probably see it for the remainder of this election, then it will drop off substantially.

    It’s probably not a coincidence that you see the same allegations showing up repeatedly on a large variety of comment boards, ranging from MSNBC to AOL to boards like this one, which have very similar content.

    The theme this week has been allegations that the financial collapse was caused by the Democrats, either because somebody or other gave a Democrat a campaign donation, or alleging that Democratic support of CRA prevented Republican reforms, or just general allegations that Fannie Mae & Freddy Mac are “Democratic” institutions, therefore their failure must be the fault of Democrats.

    It’s all a bunch of bullshit, using misleading references, out of context statements, confusing attempts to abolish CRA and de-regulate further the banking industry with false allegations that it was an attempt to protect bank solvency with “reforms”. It relies on the fact that the public, and even most journalists, won’t bother to dig into boring and complicated topics like the history of banking regulation. It has all the earmarks of Rove’s campaign tactics – taking an issue that hurts the Republicans and hitting back with “swift-boat” tactics to muddy the waters.

    Of course, some trolls here might be bloggers not directly affiliated with the campaigns, but are more than happy to re-print the allegations they get from other sources who are.

  44. 56

    Century of the Common man spews:

    Readers Digest condensed version:

    FDR stablized the economy through well orchestrated intervention and reform of the financial sector. Further, the AAA stablized commodity prices and saved American Farmers. The infrastructure associated with the WPA, CCC, and the TVA was an investment in America intiated at or near the bottom of a deflationary cycle that paid huge dividends…

  45. 57

    Century of the Common man spews:

    Give some credit to the Secretary of the Treasury… he is at least doing something which is more than I can say for anyone else in Washington that are seasoned in players for the blame game

  46. 58

    Century of the Common man spews:

    One final comment on this subject… as it seems no one is reading this anymore…

    If half the thought and energy spent on creating ways to blame was spent on a solution, the problem would easily be solved.

    BTW, AIG is in a business alittle more important to the world than a pizza oven