Better than Hoover (Part III)

The Dow Jones Industrial Average closed down another 100+ points again today at 11,346.51, just 759 points above where it stood the day President Bush took office.  That’s an annualized return of under one percent, but then it’s still better than Herbert Hoover, so who’s complaining?


  1. 1

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Goldy finds it convenient to focus on 1 market indicator.
    All I know is I am waaaay better off today than I was in January 2001.

    The market is filled with great buying opportunities. The market always looks forward & anticipates. The thought of Obama and higher capital gains taxes has folks running to the sidelines. Wisely, I sold most of my stocks last year when the market was over 14,000.

    Roger Rabbit has shared his successes.
    So has GBS.

    The only stock I am holding is Wells Fargo. Bought 2000 more shares today @ $23.65.
    My average cost is now $24.25 with 4000 shares.
    $97,000. Chump change.
    5% dividend currently taxed at 15%.

    I’m planning to hold for at least a year.

    I know others are still in the market.

    Get a job so you have something to invest besides whatever Granny & Mommy give you for your birthday and holidays.

    Is there risk in the market??
    Some folks have no stomach for risk.
    I was never a huge risk taker.
    Just got all in and all out of the market at very good times.
    Don’t need to take a lot of risk at my age.

  2. 3

    rhp6033 spews:

    Dang. Goldy beat me to it by less than ten minutes. Actual rate of return is .096 % per year averaged over the past 7-1/2 years of the Bush administration.

    Cynical @ 1 criticizes the reference to only one market indicator, but that happens to be the one market indicator which (a) is most resistent to wild swings, and (b) is most indicative of the fundamental health of the U.S. economy. Other indicators (NASDAC, etc.) also don’t look too good for the current administration. The only indicators which are looking good seem to be the basic “rescessionary” commodities like oil & gold – ports to which investors flee to when the economic storm becomes to dangerous to navigate in the general stock market.

    After the better part of seven years of Republicans trying to blame economic problems of the Bush administration on Clinton, now Cynical is trying to blame the current problems on – Obama! It’s like they want to pretend that the Bush administration, and six years of Republican control of all three branches of government, never happened. Well, if I was a Republican, I would want to close my eyes and pretend it was all a bad dream, also.

    By the way – way to express confidence in the McCain ticket, by blaming the sell-off of stocks on investors voting on the probability of an Obama victory!!! The experts, of course, have other opinions:

    “The problem is that there’s not one, single worry,” said Hugh Johnson, chairman and chief investment officer of Johnson Illington Advisors. He pointed to high gas prices, still-tight credit market conditions, and the contracting housing market. “If you’re looking for problems that face investors, that face the U.S. economy, they’re everywhere.”

    Source: Stocks end rough week down again

  3. 4

    demo kid spews:

    @1: Ahh… yes. The wonderful tactic of moving the goalposts. If the stock market hasn’t gone up, just discount the DJIA as a measure. If the deficit has increased, just state that it’s a temporary thing that the next president can resolve.

    Unfortunately, it’s the things that the Republicans *have* focused on as part of their economic strategy that are the big concern. That drive for higher homeownership rates didn’t work out so well, did it?

  4. 5

    Steve spews:

    @5 “didn’t work out so well, did it?”

    I can’t think of a single thing they did that was a success. Nothing. What a fucking mess.

  5. 6

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    @1: “The thought of Obama and higher capital gains taxes has folks running to the sidelines.”

    Hey market mindreader, so they’re selling now? At least six months before Obama takes the Oath of Office? Are they afraid the exits will get crowded?

    Simply stuperfying. This is the kind of crap one could expect from Donald Luskin (world’s stoopidist man) or Larry Kudlow (2nd stoopidist).

    The market could be reacting to any of a number of fundamental reasons (sinking dollar, high commodity prices, housing crash, still unresolved credit crisis, peak oil, global warming, crash in consumer confidence, etc.). Or, even with a 4% move recently, be nothing more than statistical noise. But Cynical asserts it’s all about the rich doing their tax planning.

    Whadda’ dolt.

  6. 7

    The Real Mark spews:

    Steve @ 2: “@2 Christ, you’re boring. Zzzzzzzzz”

    I couldn’t agree with you more.

  7. 8

    Jim, (a genuine musician) spews:

    Mr. Cynical: you are a pure genius, and we are in your debt. I am unsure how we got so lucky, but . . . .

    And on another worthless economic datum, I guess:

    Last administration: 23,000,000 new jobs.

    This administration: 7,000,000 new jobs.

  8. 9

    The Real Mark spews:

    rhp @ 3 “Other indicators (NASDAC, etc.)…”

    While I would agree that reports from the National Aviation Safety Data Analysis Center (NASDAC) are important, I’m not sure how they’re relevant here.

    Here’s a hint: If want to sound like you know what you’re talking about — instead of just regurgitating talking points — take the time to learn the material and, especially, spell important things correctly. I know that it SOUNDS like “NASDAC,” but it is spelled “NASDAQ.” And don’t blame it on mis-typing. The “C” isn’t next to the “Q.”

  9. 11

    My Left Foot spews:


    Those that have, don’t brag. Those that have quietly go about their business.

    Those that don’t have make up chump change lines and lies.

    The economy is in the toilet. Any statement you make to the contrary is a lie. You can put lipstick on a pig. All you have when you are done, is, well, your date for tonight.

    You were not missed when you swore off posting here. Why did you lie to us? Why can’t a consevative keep his word just one fucking time?

  10. 13

    My Left Foot spews:

    the real mark at 9

    You some kind of expert on “fat fingering”? What am I saying, the party of molesting minors and trolling for sex in airport bathrooms. Of course you are an expert. I would suggest pulling the fat finger out of your considerable ass. See if that helps.

  11. 14

    The Real Mark spews:

    MLF @ 11

    So, just to be clear, you’re saying that Roger is full if it, too?

    @ 13 Since you’re too dimwitted to understand the colloquialism, I edited to simplify. Just. For. You!

  12. 15

    rhp6033 spews:

    Mark @ 9: I make a lot of worse typos than that. For some reason, over the past couple of years I’m having trouble with words that sound the same but have different meanings (example: there, their, etc.). I don’t know why – I learned those lessons back in grade school, and know the difference very well. But when I’m typing in a hurry, sometimes there is a disconnect between my thoughts and my fingers, which seems to get worse with age.

    So go ahead and make fun of it if you want, but if that’s all you’ve got to complain about my post, you must be running pretty low on ammo.

  13. 16

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    “Why can’t a consevative keep his word just one fucking time?”

    Conservatives down through history have claimed to want to preserve the old ways of doing things, and they have always lied.


  14. 17

    My Left Foot spews:


    Point me to ONE post where Roger refers to $97K as chump change?

    Roger mentions gains of $2000, and in the next breath acknowledges his losses.

    We all know that Cyniclown is a blow hard braggart. He talks a good game. I am guessing he doesn’t have 4 shares of Wells Fargo, let alone 4000. He never makes a bad move. Everything he touches turns to gold. If he had what he says he has, he would be plotting his escape to a tropical island.

    Not rotating on his thumb in his mothers basement.

  15. 18

    The Real Mark spews:

    rhp @ 15

    I’m not making fun of your issues. Seriously, if you’ve seen an increase in problems, you should go in for a CT or MRI. Could be that something is impacting that part of your brain.

    My comment was merely questioning whether your post was a legitimate, original thought or just a copy/paste job of something you heard from a biased pundit.

  16. 19

    Steve spews:

    @14 “So, just to be clear, you’re saying that Roger is full if it, too?”

    You weren’t addressing me but, yes, when Roger goes on about his market plays, he is full of it. That kind of crap isn’t a left or right thing.

    @17 “in the next breath acknowledges his losses.”

    Perhaps he has, but not to my recollection.

  17. 20

    My Left Foot spews:


    Lately I am typing buy for by and you for your (why that R escapes me?). Caught myself typing sayd for said once. I think is just phonetics taking over.

  18. 21

    The Real Mark spews:

    TitsandYodels @ 10

    Are you making a threat against the President of the United States in your own, special, monosyllabic way?

    Good thing that Goldy captured your IP address.

  19. 22

    My Left Foot spews:


    Yeah, every now and then he talks about how it averages out to a nice steady gain of this or that percent. I agree that it is sometimes boastful, but not on the scale of our
    “millionaire” Cyniclown.

  20. 23

    My Left Foot spews:


    Dumass! You really don’t see the parody, do you?

    The DISH (pause) DRAWER commercial for the fancy brand of dishwashers. You know, where the guy is watching his wife’s ass swing back and forth while emptying the dishwasher?

  21. 24

    Don Joe spews:

    TRM @ 18

    I suppose RHP’s malady might seem rather serious to someone like you, but it isn’t really. You see, his problem is very simple: he thinks faster than he can type.

  22. 25

    Steve spews:

    @22 Agreed. Cyniclown is at another level altogether. I suppose it goes without saying that he’s an asswipe, America-hating commie-fascist liar.

  23. 26

    The Real Mark spews:

    MLF @ 23

    Never seen that commercial. You undoubtedly watch far more sitcoms and reality TV (and the interspersed ads) than I do.

  24. 27

    GBS spews:

    Mr. Cynical @ 1:

    Your personal economy isn’t the nation’s economy. Furthermore, as an investor, you know good and well the Republicans have not been good stewards of the economy.

    The Dow Jones Industrial Average is followed for a VERY good reason. Those are the 30 companies that control the majority of business in this country.

    But, to take your argument to a more logical and broader conclusion let us look at the broader indices like the S&P 500.

    When Bill Clinton became president the S&P 500 traded around 450. After President Clinton’s polices created the greatest economic boom in the history of the world the S&P 500 was worth about 1,340. That’s a 300+% gain.

    Today, the S&P closed at 1,278. That’s a net loss after 7 1/2 years to the broader U.S. economy and you know it.

    Bottom line: Republicans failed running the economy. Period.

    It took nearly 50 years for gasoline to reach $1.50. It has gone up that much in the last year.

    Again, on the Republican’s watch.

    Caused by the Republicans. Specifically, John McCain’s buddy Phil Gramm who lobbied McCain for the “Enron Loophole” that allows oil speculators to bypass any regulations and/or control of the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) and the CTFC (Commodity Trading Futures Commission) to run up the cost of oil.

    Morgan Stanley, the Wall Street investment bank, buys more oil futures contracts than anyone else on the planet.

    Go figure that one out and you’ll realize you’ve been robbed by Republicans on everything from electricity to gas to food to . . . .

  25. 28

    The Real Mark spews:

    DJ @ 24

    You consider thinking faster than typing to be a special skill? I guess we know your intellectual level now.

  26. 29


    One more Republiconvict president, and America will be finished.

    Vote Obama or die (or possibly live is squalor).

    Simple as that.

    Anyone that thinks Republiconvicts are good at anything but lying to their blind followers, or looting the treasury belongs in a nuthouse.

    I just can’t wait till the time the justice department is not run by the republiconvict party, and actually starts investigating crimes instead of democrats.

  27. 30

    The Real Mark spews:

    GBS @ 27

    C’mon… Have some intellectual honesty here…

    When Clinton took office on 1/20/1997, the S&P 500 was at 786, not 450. Granted, it was still a 70% gain, but NOT 300%. Furthermore, the numbers had been flat for 2+ years before Bush took office.

    Clinton’s numbers had the benefit of the Dot-Com Bubble and Y2K-related expenditures. Bush’s numbers, in part, were hurt by things that started to go flat and/or fall apart in 2000.

    Also, Bush’s numbers took a huge hit from 9/11. One year after 9/11, the S&P 500 had dropped to pre-Clinton levels. If you give Clinton credit for his dot-com build, you have to give Bush credit for comparably pulling us out of the post-9/11 hole.

  28. 31

    The Real Mark spews:

    No Facts @ 29

    Vote Obama and plan to live in a HooverObamaville after he triggers a New Depression.

  29. 32

    Steve spews:

    @30. “C’mon… Have some intellectual honesty here…”

    Coming as it is from a lying, commie-fascist traitor such as yourself, that’s pretty funny.

  30. 33


    @31 You must be confused Mark. Republiconvict policies cause depressions, and Democrats bring our country back. It is gonna be tough cleaning up (and paying for) the 5 trillion Bush and his gang borrowed in order to hand it all out to their friends, without even taxing them for it.

    The bills are gonna come due with Obama is president, once again. At least the first Bush (not that bad of a president) realized he needed to pay for his policies, and by raising taxes got thrown under the bus by the neanderthals.

    There is only one way Republicons want to run government. By borrowing. Idiots.

  31. 34

    The Real Mark spews:

    No Facts @ 33

    You’d change your tune if you had tax increases on your welfare check.

    I’m tired of working hard and having my money snatched to pay for layabouts like you.

  32. 35

    Politically Incorrect spews:

    Just continue with your dollar-cost-averaging in your mutual funds, and you’ll all be rewarded. When nobody wants to own stocks is the best time to buy them. This is that time. Choose a good fund or two and invest!

    Max-out your IRA, 401k, 403b, or 457.

    BTW, Goldy, do you own any stocks, bonds or mutual funds, or are you a certificate of deposit investor?

  33. 36

    BigGlen spews:

    @30 “C’mon… Have some intellectual honesty here…

    When Clinton took office on 1/20/1997, ”

    Bill Clinton took office on 01/20/1993. And things started looking up then.

  34. 37

    Steve spews:

    @34 Sure, let the kids and grandkids pay the debt Republicans ran up, you selfish piece of America-hating, commie-fascist shit.

  35. 38

    JamesA spews:

    As someone that is (finally) in a financial position to actually be affected by the tax increase Obama is proposing, all I have to say is, “IT’S ABOUT DAMN TIME!”.

    We have been running up record deficits, instituted a brand new social welfare program written by the drug companies and are fighting wars in two middle eastern countries, and this Administration has not had the testicular fortitude to ask Americans like me for one thin dime. In fact, they keep sending me my tax money back in the form of “economic incentives” that I never asked for.

    It is simply amazing to listen to these “conservatives” whine about how Obama is going to increase taxes. At least he has the balls to tell us that there are no easy answers and we all need to contribute. Sorry folks, but signing away our constitution rights and becoming a nation that tortures might give your yellow-bellied spines a temporary (and false) sense of security, but it does nothing to actually pay the bills.

    The party is over and it’s time to bring a little fiscal discipline and moral courage back to the White House.

  36. 39

    Steve spews:

    @38 “The party is over and it’s time to bring a little fiscal discipline and moral courage back to the White House.”

    Well said, James.

  37. 40

    rhp6033 spews:

    Mark # 30: I’ve always “discounted” Clinton’s numbers a bit because of the dot-com bubble. That’s why I use the DJIA for comparison, not NASDAQ. I also held off on blaming Bush for the post 9/11 crash. But that takes us to 2004, at best. By then the DJIA had recovered from both, as it was expected to do after some temporary dislocation.

    But after 2004, the country’s economic performance is clearly is of the Bush administration’s own making. It’s due to a variety of policies which were central to the Bush administration’s ideology: their presumption that financial markets need minimal oversight & regulation, that government can be starved into efficiency, that out-sourcing of government functions to private contractors is always better than having it performed by professional government administrators, that tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans create more economic growth than looking out for the economic welfare of the middle and lower classes, that tax cuts take precedence over EVERY other goverment policy & initiative, including sound fiscal management (creating record deficits and federal debt in the process).

    Attempts to throw even more money at the problems to solve the P.R. aspects only made other problems worse.

    It’s a bit like the guy who inherited a business but spent all the revenues on wild parties, private jets, and executive bonuses. Eventually he realizes things are going wrong – suppliers have cut off shipments until their bills are paid, the equipment all breaks because it hasn’t been maintained, freight companies require advance payments before shipment, and customers cancel orders because of unreliability of the product and services. He keeps looking for somebody else to blame, but needs only to look in the mirror. But instead, he keeps pointing at “Dear Old Dad” – from whom he inherited the company – and blames him for the problems. “Surely he could have done something, in advance, so that I wouldn’t have had to deal with these issues!” he complains.

  38. 41

    The Real Mark spews:

    BG @ 36

    You’re totally correct. Mea culpa, as Goldy says.

    Yes, it was 450 when he took office in 1993. So, that would mean a 200% overall increase (still not 300%). HOWEVER, it should be noted that it really only ramped up with the Dot-Com Bubble. Run a chart from 1980 to today and you’ll see what I mean.

    Also, my comment about the impact of 9/11 holds. Again, look at the chart.

  39. 44

    rhp6033 spews:

    PI @ 35:

    Actually, I’m PERSONALLY better off with the DJIA in the toilet. I’ve got another fifteen years to go until retirement, and it’s in my best interest for stock prices to stay depressed during my “buying” phase of life, and to suddenly see ALL of their appreciation about ten minutes before I retire, at which point I should sell and convert stocks to bonds and other “safer” vehicles.

    But I would rather see the country in sound economic shape, even if it’s against my narrow self-interest. I’d like for U.S. companies to be so strong, that foreign buyers can’t afford to buy them. I’d like American products to be the gold standard on the world markets. I’d like for people who retire before me to be able to enjoy their retirement too, rather than having to work into their 70’s and 80’s simply because the value of their retirement savings won’t allow them to do otherwise. I’d like for more of the middle-class to be able to AFFORD to invest in the stock market, apart from their company-designed 401(k) plans.

  40. 45

    GBS spews:

    The Real “Dumb” Mark:

    C’mon… Have some intellectual honesty here…

    When Clinton took office on 1/20/1997, the S&P 500 was at 786, not 450.

    Baaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa

    What a DICK!!!! That was the beginning of Clinton’s SECOND term in office.

    MEMO to DUMB Mark. When using “The Google” at least understand a modicum of the facts, Jack off.

    Clinton took office on 1/21/93. The S&P 500 closed at 435.49

    435 x 300% = 1305.

    1/22/2001 the first day the markets were open on Bush’ presidency the S&P 500 closed at 1,342.

    My 300+% gain is spot fucking on.

    The economy was building steam before the “dot com” era really took off and especially before anyone was talking about Y2K compliances.

    The economy took off after the policy showdown between Clinton and Gingrich in ’95. Newt blinked and the rest is history.

    Bill Clinton gets the credit for HIS polices that the Republicans said would crash the economy, like raising taxes on Paris Hilton types, and George W. Bush gets credit for HIS polices that, well, SUCKS compared to any former president.

    Note to Dumb Mark; don’t challenge me on the Constitution, our Founding Fathers, or the economy. I’ll whip your ass every time.

  41. 46

    GBS spews:

    Besides, Dumb Mark, if Bush’s policies of cutting taxes for milionairea and billionaires were so great, then why hasn’t the economy taken off yet?

    Can you explain?

  42. 47

    ArtFart spews:

    33 “There is only one way Republicons want to run government. By borrowing. Idiots.”

    Wrong-ola. When you “borrow” money with no intentention of ever paying it back, that’s called “stealing”.

    They’re not idiots. They’re crooks.

  43. 48

    GBS spews:

    Real Dumb Mark, you ought to talk with Mark The IDIOT Redneck and maybe you two can figure out how OPEC sets the price of oil.

    Baaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa

  44. 49

    The Real Mark spews:

    GBS @ 45

    1. I’ve already commented on the 1997 error. Old news.

    2. Your math is lousy. 435 to 1,305 is a 200% GAIN not 300%. The math is:

    1,305 – 435 = 870 gain

    870 / 435 = 200%

    3. The economy was “building steam?” How so? S&P 500 looks pretty tame leading up to 1995. Then it SPIKES because of the Dot-Com Bubble.

    Even rhp has the intellectual honesty to admit the impacts of the Dot-Com Bubble and 9/11. You, OTOH, are a simpleton.

  45. 50


    I have an honest question. Who the hell is outlawing the ice cream truck from playing its music over the PA system? Is it Democrats or Republicans?

    All I know is back when I was a kid, when this area was run by Republicans, the ice cream man could play his music. Now that the Democrats are in charge, it’s banned. Along with fireworks!

  46. 51

    ArtFart spews:

    The really pathetic part of all this is the legion of folks in the lower middle class who continue to serve as passionate apologists for the neoconservatives. Apparently they still cling to the hope that this all offers them some sort of Horatio Alger opportunity to pursue the “American dream”.

    Guess what, kiddies? There’s no pony here. Just a big pile of manure.

  47. 52

    ArtFart spews:

    50 Ya got that one wrong, too.

    The “Joe” franchise in Seattle went out of business several years ago. Might have had something to do with the cost of gas for those cute little trucks.

    You don’t know much, do you? Making stuff up makes you look even dumber.

  48. 53

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Mark is RIGHT..
    It is a 200% GAIN.

    In order to get this economy moving, we need to encourage capital investment.
    The LEFTY’s believe capital investment comeing from the government is best.
    I believe private investment is the healthiest.

    Remember, the government gets it’s $$ from us.

    I despise the slippery slope of Socialism.
    Once you start down that path, the only way to stop all the inevitable undesirable consequences is to put hardcore Conservatives in office. Denmark did it.
    After awhile, you develop a bigger & bigger dependent class (dependent on government aid).
    Eventually tax-paying working folks get sick of supporting lazy ass bottom-feeders.
    The issue is not Liberal vs. Conservative.
    It’s Socialism vs. Capitalism.
    We should really have a 2 Party System based on that…………..
    Think about it..
    Would you be a Capitalist or Socialist??


  49. 54

    Blue John spews:

    … Now that the Democrats are in charge, it’s banned. Along with fireworks!

    Dang it! I have a RIGHT to accidentally burn down your house!

  50. 55

    GBS spews:

    Dumb Mark,

    To even allude that the entirety of the economic growth of the 90’s was only fueled by .com is stupid on it’s face.

    It completely ignores: home construction, manufacturing, consumable, durable goods, electronics and the whole gambit of the economy grew, not just one sector. Nor, was the growth in the high-tech the only driver that floated the aforementioned examples. Which are not all inclusive.

    What you are willfully ignoring is the fact that Clinton’s “pay as you go” economy brought tremendous liquidity to the monetary markets, which fueled much of the growth of the 90’s.

    See, being fiscally responsible with the country’s purse strings injects more high-valued currency into the economy.

    What Bush and the Republican policies have done is sucked all the high valued currency out of the market and replaced it with fewer low-valued dollars.

    See the slide of the dollar since Bush launched his monetary policies. See how a weak dollar causes commodities like oil to soar.

    Dumb Mark.

  51. 56

    The Real Mark spews:

    It is funny that we’re having this argument over Clinton vs. Bush econ policy.

    Even if Obama is elected, we won’t be getting Clinton and his DLC pals. No matter how much his PR people try to make him sound like a moderate, if Obama is elected, we’re getting another Carter: taxes, tariffs and gas lines.

  52. 57

    JamesA spews:

    Mr Cynical –

    Socialism implies that the “State” should own entire sectors of the economy. Can you please provide at least one example of where the Democratic nominee is suggesting a wholesale government takeover? Even using the Universal Healthcare plan of Obama or Clinton, it leverages PRIVATE insurance and healthcare, not government owned. It is merely managed and regulated by the government. If you want to look at examples of socialism in America, look at the Fire Department or the Police Department or possibly the Power Companies come close.

    The right wing tosses the “socialist” tag around WAY too freely and obviously does not understand the meaning.

  53. 58

    rhp6033 spews:

    Troll @ 50? What the hell are you talking about???? Where I live in Everett, the ice cream trucks play music. Kind of. Sounds like an old eight-track playing where the tape was stretched out, or the batteries on the cassette deck are about to run out. And why are they playing “Jingle Bells” in summer????? Makes me want to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights and put an end to it’s painful existence.

    And fireworks are illegal in Everett city limits for the past 12+ years I’ve lived there – including both Republican and Democratic administrations. That didn’t stop the guys on the hill above me from shooting bottle rockets onto my roof. Now we don’t go anywhere 4th of July, so I can go out every hour or so with the hose and wet down the roof, just to make sure it doesn’t catch on fire with the dogs shut up inside.

    Besides, we know you are just trying to deflect the topic of this post. I know, the Bush & Co. “economic miracle” isn’t something I would want to talk about, either, if I was a Republican.

    By the way, anybody remember Bush’s plan in 2005 to privatize social security? How good of an idea does that look today??????

  54. 59

    GBS spews:

    Mr. Cynical @ 53:

    Stop with the tired and fales rhetoric of socialism. Liberals are not socialist. We don’t believe that government should own, operate and distribute wealth to individuals.

    Paying your taxes is NOT a form of socialism.

    If you really are a student of investing history then you will know that since the inception of the stock market as we know it today, you get an average of 12% ROI under Republican Presidents and an average of 17% under Demcoratic presidents.

    You two goobers go read your charts and get back to me.

    If you were strictly a capitalist, then you’d split your ticket, Democrat for president and Republican for congress.

  55. 60

    GBS spews:

    Dumb Mark @ 56:

    Yeah, that’s what you guys said about Clinton in ’92.

    History speaks for itself.

    I’ll take the track record of actual success of Democrats vs. the rhetoric of Republicans who have a failed track record on the economy. Including Reagan. Hell, right after W, Reagan is the shits.

  56. 61



    WRONG. Cities and communities all over the place are OUTLAWING the playing of ice cream truck music! That never used to happen under Republicans. LIBERALS ARE OUTLAWING ICE CREAM TRUCK MUSIC!

  57. 62

    ArtFart spews:

    53 Capitalism? Sure, fine….let’s see some of it.

    Neoconservatism isn’t doing that. Instead we’re getting heaping doses of corporate socialism, in the form of military pork, panicky handouts from the Federal Reserve and special priveleges doled out to large companies like Archer Daniels Midland and Enron with, shall we say, “friends in high places” that give them permission to extort money from captive customers or slobber up subsidies originally intended to help the little guys.

  58. 64

    Blue John spews:

    @52. Is that the worst you got?
    I think it’s just that cranky people are banning together and outlawing those loud trucks.

  59. 65

    ArtFart spews:

    61 Here’s the straight poop from the Bothell Times about what happened in Seattle:


    There’s something of an irony in that the operation’s demise was partly caused by the “high-tech” boom in the 90’s. They had trouble finding drivers because they couldn’t pay as much as Homegrocer and Mylackey.

    How lame can you get? The “Republican revolution” has nearly destroyed the whole American experiment, and somebody’s whining about ice cream trucks.

  60. 66

    GBS spews:

    Dumb Mark @ 63:

    Yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnn…….. the rhetoric is old. It doesn’t work with the American voting public any more.

    Oh sure, 2000, 2002, 2004 it worked well for you. I’m the first to admit it. But then came 2006 and the three special elections since.

    Those results say your old shtick doesn’t fool any one but dumb people like you. Which doesn’t make a majority any more.

  61. 67

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Actually taxes fuel Socialism.
    What is the right amount of government?
    Why is government so ineffective at cost effectively delivering services (schools, transportation, DSHS for example)?
    Increasing taxes sucks blood out of working people. Government at all levels continues to grow like the movie The Blob…consuming the energy of hard-working, risk-taking people.
    More Government is not the solution.
    The union leaders who post here believe it is.

    How can Gregoire add 8000+ jobs during tough economic times???
    It’s indefensible GBS.
    How laughable when the KLOWNS try to rationalize more government and more government workers as a way to stimulate the economy.
    The answer is to start eliminating the most ineffective operations 1st….Superintendent of Public Instruction, DSHS..abd start privitizing transportation, ferry’s etc.
    Also, it is time for Washington voters to decide if we should be a Right to Work State.
    Get all the cost info out there for the voters.

    I wish Gregoire had merely tread water.
    Instead, SHE took a huge surplus and made it evaporate into a projected $2.5 BILLION deficit.
    She sits stone-silent about what she will do about it. WHY??
    Because, as a career bureaucrat, Gregoire only knows one way…raise taxes.
    And she is too gutless to come forward & say it.

  62. 68

    rhp6033 spews:

    Cynical @ 50: What you are creating is a “false dichotomy”, what is known as a classical rhetorical fallacy. The world is not necessarily “either/or”. Look it up, you might find it under the subject headings of “classical greek logic” or “classical greek rhetoric”.

    It’s related to a similar fallacy, which is known in it’s more modern terms as the “slippery slope” – the argument that a relatively minor event or policy will inevitably result in the most extreme policy or results possible.

    Incorporated in your argument, by implication, is the “straw man” fallacy: the attempt by exaggeration or ridicule to falsely portray your opposition in extremes.

    (I’ve just given you an education consisting of about 1/4 of one class in college-level Rhetoric & Debate course. I’ll pro-rate the value based upon the current tuition rates at the U.W., and send you a bill).

  63. 69

    GBS spews:

    Dumb Mark,

    Here’s a fact you bettere get used to: President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, Majority Speaker Reid with a fillibuster proof majority.

    Oh, and one last little gotcha to tiwst the knife a little more for 20+ more years – Supreme Court Justice Hillary Clinton.

  64. 70

    The Real Mark spews:

    GBS @ 66

    I’m not the one saying it. The words came straight out of Maxine Waters’ mouth.

    GBS @ 69

    Even IF Obama wins, he wouldn’t nominate Hillary to judge a dog show. If you believe the kissy-kissy going on right now is real, you’re even more gullible than anyone could imagine. 200% more gullible!

  65. 71

    Blue John spews:

    And how much power does Maxine Waters have? Any idiot can spout off nonsense. What matters if they can implement it, like Bush and Cheney did.

  66. 72

    GBS spews:

    Mr. Cynical:

    Taxes do not fuel socialism. Do you even know what the word means.

    Since you’re a conservative investor you probably haven’t read this one liberal rag about business and investing. It’s called Forbe’s magazine.

    Any ways, under Gov. Gregiiore we moved up on thier list to the 5th most business friendly state. You know who’s at the top? Virginia with another Democratic govenor.

    Washington is the ONLY state in the Union with a trade SURPLUS with China.

    Every aspect of our crappy economy can directly be pointed at Republican policies. That, Mr. Cynical, is indefensible.

  67. 74

    rhp6033 spews:

    By the way, the Republicans in the Kansas congressional delegation proposed a bill to either award the tanker contract to Boeing, or to deny any federal funding to the program unless the Air Force re-bids the contract. Reichart was brought in as a co-sponsor of the bill.

    Patty Murray, who has been leading the effort in the Senate to investiate how the tanker contract was awarded, has called upon Secty of Defense Gates to meet with her to explain how he is going to put the contract out for a re-bid, with clearer statements regarding the Air Force requirements and desires.

    The Republican senator from Kansas has put a “hold” on the bill, saying Boeing is “arrogant” and that the Airbus airplane is clearly superior to any Boeing product.

    Personally, I think it’s pretty good strategy to have the Kansas Republicans out front on this issue – it takes away the “red state vs. blue state” aspect of the case, and also removes it from being a partison issue. So I’m not going to blame Reichart from not being the initiator of this legislation. And the Democratic Senators from Washington have already been out in front on this issue, in demanding a fair hearing for Boeing.

    Now, McCain clearly doesn’t care that Washington workers won’t vote for him. He’s already written off the state from the electoral vote map. In contrast, Reichart clearly has to come out in favor of Boeing on this issue, considering all the workers who live in his district.

    So what happens when McCain comes out to Washington State to raise money, for himself and for Reichart? Think we can get some smart journalists to force McCain & Reichart to explain their views on this issue, while standing side-by-side?

  68. 75

    Blue John spews:

    Oh really?

    The answer is to start eliminating the most ineffective operations 1st….Superintendent of Public Instruction, DSHS..abd start privitizing transportation, ferry’s etc.

    And replace them with what?
    If you got rid of the Superintendent of Public Instruction, then what?
    If you privatize DSHS, who would take it over? How would they make money off that? Would you charge the poor and most vulnerable for their services?
    If you privatized the ferries, and they found they couldn’t make a good profit, would you just let them stop?
    Do you want toll roads like back east?

  69. 77

    The Real Mark spews:

    GBS @ 73

    It is stupid to bet on things with that many variables and this early in the process.

    Do I think Obama CAN win? Sure. Absolutely.

    Are you so naive as to think that McCain CAN’T win? That he has NO chance?

  70. 78

    The Real Mark spews:

    BJ @ 75

    re: DSHS… I don’t have time to look up a link at the moment, but IIRC (and I could be wrong), Colorado implemented some sort of a privatized DSHS some years ago and got much better bang for their buck than when it was gov’t run.

  71. 79

    Blue John spews:

    Here’s a question, to go off tangent with.

    Do you think an unregulated capitalist system like now or in the 1920s and 1890s, is better than regulated capitalist system, like I’m told we had in the 1960s?

    I’m told, being too young to notice, in the 1960s, prices and taxes were higher, but the economy was strong and the social system was better. People were paid living wages.

  72. 80

    proud leftist spews:

    69 and 76
    I think Hillary would be an outstanding Justice. I’d far rather see her in that position than as VP. She’d do a great job. As an attorney, I can’t believe she’d think there’s a higher goal than to be a Supreme. You don’t get to run for the position, and you can’t even declare yourself a candidate. But, a lifelong position getting to declare what the Constitution means? What the federal code means? Immune from elections and all that rot, I can’t imagine it gets much better. Hillary for the Supremes–I’m all for that.

  73. 82


    They are crying about the dow. Since the dollar has lost half it’s value, what is the dow in real dollars? Euros? 6,000.

    Borrow and steal all the Republicons (and a few corrupt dems too) know how to do.

    It is amazing how the ruling class think that income earned by stock dividends should be taxed at half the rate of people that work for a living. Truly amazing.

  74. 83


    Cynical @1,

    In 2001 I invested my entire IRA (a few thousand dollars) in AAPL at a split adjusted price of $8 a share. I haven’t touched it since. No doubt your portfolio is many times larger, but I’m guessing my single investment produced a far greater rate of return than all of your buying and selling. So there.

    That said, Apple’s performance has been an anomaly that has bucked the trends, and the average investor hasn’t done nearly as well. Another argument against privatizing Social Security, which by the way, has produced a higher rate of return over the past 7 1/2 years than a total market index fund, while remain 100% secure.

  75. 84

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @1 Geez, I sure hope for your sake that Wells Fargo doesn’t slash their dividend and take a big share price hit because of bad loan writeoffs and force you to live on food stamps. Why the hell you put $97,000 into a bank stock is a mystery.

    But if you were gonna do that why didn’t you diversify by spreading your money over several bank stocks to increase your odds of at least one of your investments not going bankrupt? Like I said, living on food stamps under this administration is a real bitch. You must think Obama is gonna win.

  76. 85

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @6 Personally, I think the market is reacting to the fact that the whole fucking economy is crashing down around our ears, but that’s just my personal opinion.

  77. 86

    All Facts Support My Positions spews:

    I am negotiating a short sale with Wells Fargo bunny man. (I am the buyer) They are taking $87K. The original loan was for $160K. How many hits like this can they swallow? GMAC is taking 10 cents on the dollar for the second too.

    Amazing. They loaned 200K to someone to buy a condo with nothing down, and the person makes 5K a year….. Go figure…..

  78. 87

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @86 Go figure is right! Why would anyone buy stock in a company like that? Mr. C must hate money.

  79. 88

    All Facts Support My Positions spews:

    You guys didn’t read the PI today. Food stamps buy less, but people applying for them are exploding. Think Bush will use some of them tax breaks for billionaires $$ to feed starving Americans? Not a chance. What? What was that I heard? “Let them eat cake” I think?

    Get Real. Blame A Republicon. And to think Bush inherited a record budget surplus. With another 8 years of Clinton in office, our national debt would probably now be 2 trillion instead of 10. Oh but for the good old days….. Peace. Prosperity. You know….. The stuff the GOP goes out of their way to prevent.

  80. 89

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    And to make things even more interesting, the banks are now trying to make good their losses on loans to sub-subprime borrowers by gouging their good customers.

    Mr. Good Customer has done business with the Bank for 30 years. He has his checking, savings, and CDs at the Bank. He gives the Bank his auto loan and credit card business, too. When he borrowed money from the Bank, he always made every payment on time.

    So how does the Bank reward Mr. GC’s loyalty? By knocking the rate they pay on his savings down to 1/2% and jacking up the interest they charge on his credit card to 28%, plus socking him with every sneaky fee they can dream up.

    Guess what Mr. GC is going to do with his banking business? He’ll probably end up at a nonprofit credit union. And the Bank will have no good customers left, only the deadbeats who open a checking account and put $5 in it so they can kite checks.

    And Mr. C thinks that’s a good business to invest in?


    (rabbit laughter in background)

  81. 91

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    WaMu’s stock is not a bargain at today’s closing price of $4.80. Trust me on this.

  82. 92

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    The only stock CynCyn ever bought was in a fantasy stock club that meets in prison where he’s serving time for sex offenses.

  83. 93

    rhp6033 spews:

    I’m not going to hazard a guess about WaMu’s future.

    My only contact with them was when they bought my mortgage and took over handling of the account, cashed my first payment check, and then “lost” the payment in their computer system. They insisted I owed them late fees, despite me providing them with a cancelled check which proved they had received & cashed it. About the time I was about to sue them, they sold off the mortage, telling the new bank that I still owed a payment plus late fees for a year, on the theory that I was always paying a month late.

    The new bank took one look at it, sighed, credited the payment and cancelled the late fees. They said they would have to “add it to the claims they have against WaMu – and there’s a lot of them!”

    Not someone I would ever do business with again. And I didn’t even choose to do business with them the last time. At least they didn’t have the nerve to put it on my credit report.

  84. 94

    michael spews:

    Seen the CPI numbers lately? Too bad my paycheck isn’t tied to that sucker, it’s getting kinda expensive to eat.

    Might have to plant a bigger garden next year.

  85. 95

    michael spews:

    The personal savings rate has been in the floor for the last 7 years too. Plus, record levels of bankruptcies and foreclosures on homes.

    Yeah #1 every thing’s going just swimmingly.

  86. 96

    My Left Foot spews:


    The commercial runs regularly on Discovery. Not a channel known for its sitcoms.

    It is some high end appliance brand.

    Nice try.

  87. 97

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    83. Goldy spews:

    Cynical @1,
    “In 2001 I invested my entire IRA (a few thousand dollars) in AAPL at a split adjusted price of $8 a share. I haven’t touched it since. No doubt your portfolio is many times larger, but I’m guessing my single investment produced a far greater rate of return than all of your buying and selling. So there.

    I bought Apple in the early 90’s and held it for years.
    I sold it prematurely last year around 145.
    It’s a great company.
    I’ll probably buy it again someday.
    The problem is NO DIVIDEND.
    Qualified Dividends are awesome…15% Tax.
    Better than 35% on interest income.
    What is your tax bracket Goldy??

    WaMu has for sometime.
    Never owned it.
    I am planning on holding Wells Fargo.
    No other Bank Stocks appeal to me right now.
    I see the banking industry being the the survival of the fittest phase.
    You will see a lot go by the wayside.
    Hell, perhaps I’m wrong about Wells Fargo in the long-run.
    That’s what makes the investing game fun….trying to find a good company in an industry group that is currently out of favor.
    Is banking oversold???

    I really don’t enjoy ST trading….aka gambling.
    Hell, I still have a 30-year $10,000 Treasury Bond from the early 80’s!

  88. 98

    All Facts Support My Positions spews:

    It’s amazing how well the tax policies worked before Reaganomics, and tax cuts for the rich destroyed our country.

    How we built our infrastructure, outlasted the Soviets, Became the world’s only superpower, only to watch fake “conservative” bastards ruin our great nation.

    My hatred of everything associated with today’s Republiconvict Party is entirely justified.

    The whole party consists of people with only 2 characteristics. Greed, and fear. Maybe a little blood lust. Ok 3 characteristics. Bunch of frigging bloodthirsty parasites.

    Organized crime. Just ask Joe Wilson. Just watch how they (all Republiconvicts) stood up for Scooter Libby, and Karl Rove, when anyone with 2 brain cells and the least amount of respect for the law would have them hung for treason. You gotta really drink a lot of kool aid to stand up for Scooter, and Karl, after outing untold numbers of undercover CIA operatives working for Brewster Jennings. They haven’t even done a damage assessment of how much damage the leaking of her identity hurt our ability to gather “real” intelligence.

    The only thing slimier than a Republiconvict, is the next Republiconvict.

    If you right wing frauds want to destroy America, you gotta go through me!!!!!!


  89. 99

    All Facts Support My Positions spews:

    You want to see something funny. Let have Hannity interview Amy Goodman.

    She would crucify him.

    He would have to go home crying to his mommie.

    Reality has a left wing bias.

  90. 100

    The Real Mark spews:

    No Facts @ 98

    The Soviet Union fell because of Reagan. End of story.

    @ 99

    Amy Goodman? Crucify Hannity? Not likely. Besides, why would he waste his time with her? In the world of broadcasting, she is as irrelevant as a headcase with a ham radio.

  91. 101

    All Facts Support My Positions spews:

    You think Reagan’s babbling, and funding of Al Queda is what brought down the Soviet Union? The Russians were bankrupt before he even took office.

    My god man. Face it. Reagan?

    The word Reagan makes anyone that cares about our country’s future want to puke. Buuuagggghhhhhhhh!

    Reagan, and his trickle up “conservative/greed/union busting/middle class destroying” policies are responsible for one thing. Turning the largest creditor nation in the world into the largest debtor nation.

    You can thank Reagan for your neighbor’s new 200 foot yacht, and your dollar that is now worth a nickel.

    The damage that idiot did does not even compare to the what the lying chimp has done to us. One more Republicon President and America is finished. Face it. We can’t take another 5 trillion added to our debt and not go broke.

  92. 103

    All Facts Support My Positions spews:

    @100 – Ronnie Ray Gun’s tax policies were so destructive to our nation that Bush 41, in attempt to keep America from going broke had to raise taxes, like a responsible president would have had to do after Reagan’s fantasy policies. Bush 41 could see the damage all that borrowing to prop up the economy would do long term. He wasn’t an idiot. He even knew how much heat he would take for raising taxes after his “read my lips” statement. You know “heat” right? Heat (for responsibly raising taxes) from the Grover Norquist type hay seed, redneck, inbred, imbecile, ignorant, greedy, retarded average Republiconvict voters.

    The first thing Ronnie Ray Gun did when he took office was to take the solar panels down from the roof of the White House. What a frigging visionary.

    When your pathetic party of liars, frauds, cowards, war criminals, lemmings, and ignorant fools is finally dead, I will gladly piss on it’s grave. Tens of millions of us will be celebrating. Oh, I mean billions, if I count the rest of the world.

    Christ, now I have to even watch out for the Senator in the stall next to me at the airport, dammit. Sometimes I just want to take a crap! God you Republicons suck.

    R.I.P —-> GOP —-> Good Riddance

  93. 104

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    All Facts thinks the Peanut Farmer is responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union!

  94. 105

    rod spews:

    it surprises me that very few people seem to be all that upset by the fall of the dollar. Its descent is directly related to Bush’s deficit spending policies and his foolish adventure in Iraq. Even Bush’s “base” should be outraged. They may have seen the taxes on there income cut, but the value of their assets, when measured in every major currency except the dollar, has dropped precipitously.
    Throw in the collapse of the real estate market and the Dow treading water, and these guys ought to feel like chumps. The only ones who should be happy are the CEOs whose compay’s broken corporate governances have compensated them even faster than the assets that they manage for their shareholders fall (e.g. WAMU’s Kerry Killenger).

  95. 106

    The Real Mark spews:

    No Facts @ 101 & 103

    Considering the fact that I had family and friends that lived in Soviet-occupied countries, I know quite a bit more about the fall than you do.

    Reagan had a massive impact and is seen as a hero to many of those that suffered under the Soviets.

    Reagan had millions mourning his passing. In your case, not even your family will notice you’re gone.

  96. 107

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    Ah the republican icon Ronnie RayGun…

    Let’s see – remember how he had an affair with his best friend’s wife and broke up two relationships at once? Remember?

    Remember when he violated the law and sent Molly North to do his will? Remember?

    And remember when he lied about having MadCow because he and the rest of the traitors on the right were more interested in holding power than protecting America? Remember? He couldn’t! LOL!

  97. 108

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    The republicans are all for taxes just so long as the money is used to kill women and children in fake wars for oil. Or if it’s used to get their kin jobs at the various jails and prisons they want to build to house the entire US population. Or to give breaks to companies who then force taxpayers to foot the bill for healthcare.

  98. 109

    All Facts Support My Positions spews:

    Markie. I am not saying Ronnie Ray Gun had no impact. I am saying their system collapsed because of their system, not because of Ronnie Brain Dead Reagan. Pope John Paul, and Osama Bin Laden had a huge impact too. Any credit there?

    As far as millions mourning his death, who gives a sh*t. He was an actor, and he acted like a president who cared for large corporations, and billionaires. 350 billion to the RTC to clean up after he de regulated the banks. That’s just for starters. Same problem all over, all started with Reagan de regulating the banks. To hell with the future of the country.

    Look at Rod at @105. He hits the nail on the head. Bush’s “deficit spending” came straight from the ignorant fools that think it worked for Reagan. Trickle down my ass. Trickle up. America’s greatness ended the day Reagan took office.

    Slime like Reagan, and most Republiconvicts exist because people like yourself deny REALITY when it does not fit your/their ideology.

    All Facts Support My Positions

    The only way to live, and breathe.

    @104 Cynical one. Have you checked President Carter’s 70 plus approval rating lately? His biggest problem was having Nixon’s debts coming due on his watch.

    That is how it works. Republiconvicts run up the debts, and Democrats have to deal with the consequences during their administrations. At least Bush 41 tried, and look at what it cost him.

    Republiconvicts are allergic to responsibility. Who is gonna pay off the 5 trillion Bush borrowed (with jack sh*t to show for it) Markie?

    Reaganomics = Conservative Economics = Disaster


    Borrow and loot?


    Borrow lots more and loot trillions


    Checked the levees in New Orleans, or Missouri, or bridges in Minnesota lately?

    What will make it sink in Markie? A first grader could understand these points. Why can’t you?

  99. 110

    rhp6033 spews:

    Oops, catching up on reading after the weekend, I realized I made a mistake up at # 74. It wasn’t the Republican Kansas Senator which put a “hold” on the bill to require the Air Force to award the tanker contract to Boeing or to re-bid it. Both of the Kansas Senators sponsored the bill in the Senate, as I reported elswhere in that same post. Instead, it was the Republican Senator from Alabama who placed a hold on the bill.

    So you have Washington Democrats & Republicans joining Kansas Republicans against Alabama Republicans and – John McCain, who’s meddling in the procurement process caused the problems which led to the current situation.

    The hold on the current bill in the Senate isn’t a problem. If the Air Force tries to go ahead with the contract, the House can simply refuse to appropriate funding for the program. The Air Force knows that, so they will have to give in and submit it for re-bidding as soon as they work out the proceedure.