Old White Guys Against Rail. These guys are the real winners when Prop 1 went down. I bet their old bellies are full of whiskey and Ensure right about now:
Photo credit: Tom Reese of the Seattle Times.
Ughhhhh.
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The redhead in the lower left hand corner of the pic probably doesn’t appreciate being characterized as an OWG.
While bellies may be filled with whiskey and Ensure, the people’s wallets will remain filled with their own money, much to the chagrin of the BIG interests: big government, big business, big labor, and big Will.
Instead of bitching about the loss, come up with a plan that will fly…even if it means tossing your beloved light rail in favor of busses.
The Piper
Poor poor Piper? Do you have to try to be so stupid or does it come naturally to you?
Is it not that following a defeat one must not whine or complain, in order to be the good sport, no?
Or is that only in England & in les EEUU one can lose, then whine and complain, with no sense of dishonor?
As opposed to old white guys for rail? Come on Will. Ya gotsta bring better game than that.
Will is that Roger over there next to the Chap wearing the Hawaii Shirt? You know he is a great supporter of the failure of Prop 1. WE all know that Seattle will be the only winners in Prop 1, due the suburbs will be footing the total cost. They will be left stuck on the largest parking im the Northwest. So there isn’t a solution yet for dealing with the traffic problems.
I, uhhhhh…wasn’t aware that either race or age had a lot to do with the mass transit issue.
Money, on the other hand…
I know Kemper Freeman, who’s white and not quite as old as me, seems stuck with the obsessive idea that people must be forced to go to and from work in their own cars, in hopes that they’ll stop by his shopping center and spend money on the way to or from, or at lunch time. I work out near Overlake, but even when I do drive I get sick to my stomach over the thought of trying to fight the traffic to go to Bellevue Square. I can’t help but wonder how long it’s been since Mr. Freeman got out of his limo and took a cold, hard look at reality.
Will,
The No on Prop 1 crowd probably had little effect on the outcome of this. People don’t like mega-projects any more. I’m not sure why anyone thought the outcome would be any different than R-51.
Will
I know losing stinks, but can you take a moment to look at what you are doing?
It is one thing to spin the fear argument when you still believe you had a chance of winning on Prop 1, but it is over.
Time to move on to the hope argument, along with the governor and other elected officials who also used to push the fear argument.
Advocate for something that can put all the progressives on the same side, let’s not let them divide us again.
@9
Right On!
I heard Frank Chopp on KUOW this morning (I only caught little of it) talking about how to fix up our current roadways and make them more efficient. He also stress the need for improvements in transit, noting that we need to move people not cars.
They should have invited Mike O’Brien and Mike McGinn from the Sierra Club…oh, that’s right–they just used them as pawns…
@3 Frog:
Fuque vous.
So by inference, younger minorities are all FOR rail. Hmmmm….
@12 – successfully, too!
i see 9 better than middle aged white men and 1 white woman.
so let’s call it 9BMAWM1WWAR.
there…no one should be offended
Frank Chopp is the worst of the worst when it comes to public transportation. He gets free parking in front of the Capitol Building in Olympia, and he actually MAKES money driving, because he is re-imbursed per mile (way over actual cost) wherever he goes.
Nick Licata is also a transportation troglodyte. Nick has never seen the inside of a bus, but likes to talk them up a lot. (apparently he’s given up on his monorail dream for now)
With these and other examples, you can get a feel for the pathetic state of affairs among our “progressive” leaders when it comes to giving people more choices in transportation.
Frank and Nick love their cars and their elevated freeways – and bot agree with conservatives that public transportation should just be for poor people. A social program, not a means to get people out of their cars.
It’s easy to push buses on the transit-dependent. They don’t have any other choice.
The disturbing Sierra Club – Road Warrior alliance looks like it will continue.
Besides their opposition to light rail, both sides of the NoToProp1 alliance agree on another absurd scheme: highly regressive “congestion pricing”. This is no ordinary toll. This is a toll designed to punish people for not having the means to afford a house in the Sierra Clubbers’ elitist Seattle neighborhoods, or Kemper Freeman’s gated community.
The right wing loves variable tolling, because their rich funders and friends will get to buy their way into the bus lanes, while the poor and middle class get packed onto Ron Sims’ crappy buses.
It’s a win-win for everybody, right?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....th07m.html
The state Legislature required roads and transit to go on the ballot together, in an attempt to prevent skirmishes between highway fans and pro-transit environmentalists. Instead, rail opponent Kemper Freeman called road opponent Mike O’Brien, of the Sierra Club, “my new best friend” in a campaign debate, as both opposed the measure.
Former state Rep. Will Knedlik said his group wants to work with all opponents of Proposition 1 — including the Sierra Club — to bring a new package to voters.
O’Brien, of the Sierra Club, said that as he phoned voters over the weekend, he promised each of them that his group would come back with a strong alternative, heavy on transit.
The defeat is an apparent boost for “congestion pricing” — the use of pervasive tolling that varies with traffic, to discourage so-called nonessential trips. It would also raise money where taxes are lacking.
It might also be an issue where greens and some highway backers can agree, though many citizens, already paying gas taxes, would resent a fee on existing highways.
–
Well, hissing and screeching accomplishes nothing, including making anyone feel better.
Even regulars on this blog were divided, and I don’t include trolls like Piper.
So, what we’re overlooking is that this was not partisan, despite efforts by both sides to cast it in that light, SOME of the big players are notable rethuglicans.
We can vote down any package that doesn’t include satisfactory provisions for rail. Just because this monstrosity failed doesn’t mean the end is at hand. It is foolish to conclude that the vote was against rail. We just need to have people insist early that rail be included and promise to vote against anything that doesn’t.
Meanwhile we are going to get a rail corridor on the east side and rip up the rails.
Oh by the way:
Congratulations Roger!
@1 That “redhead” came out of a dye bottle.
@5 “Will is that Roger over there next to the Chap wearing the Hawaii Shirt?”
No. This is Roger. Note the difference in the ears. http://www.merchantsbay.com/eI.....t_Full.jpg
@7 Not to worry, I’m going to charge $5 a gallon for my gas and put Freeman out of business! And if that doesn’t do it, I’ll charge $7!
@20 For what? Being a fellow traveler on Prop. 1 with you assholes? That was an accident of nature, or an act of God, or something. … No, not an act of God; God isn’t that malicious.
“Will is that Roger over there next to the Chap wearing the Hawaii Shirt?”
It’s not Roger, but I’ll bet that crusty old road warrior thinks just like him….
Will
WADR,
this friggin thing did not go down because of the package alone, it wenbt down because of an incompetent leadership.
I suspect that most of the specifics of the campaign have real strong support. BUT, people want a leader who will tell them want in hell they are voting for. I520/LTR Redmond/SLU …
1. the proposal needs to say what the whole thing will cost, NOT ask for a down payment wiht no max.
2. local stakeholders, beneficiaries should pay their part …
e.g. SLU/Vulcan/Microsoft should chip in as these will ALL make money out of the deal.
Impact costs … sound abatement for the superwealthy or Hunts Point ought to be borne, at least in part, by the locals. Public facilties effected by the changes, esp the uW and the Arboretum should pay depending on the community affected b y the mitigation.
3. Local leaders need to buy in, step up, and supprt the program.
You do all this, with Balmer, Gates, Sims, Gregoire, Nickles, Allan, Monson and /or Goldy, and Dori supporting the thing and it will fly!
Hell maybe we can bundle a new Husky stadium with the naming rights to the bridge” Howsabout … the Amazon Floating Bridge and Stadium?.
From the looks of it, this disturbing Sierra Club – Road Warrior alliance will continue.
Besides their shared opposition to light rail, Sierra Club and Kemper Development Corporation agree on at least one other thing: congestion pricing. NoToProp1 rail-hating sugar-daddy/monorail nut Mark Baerwaldt is also a big proponent.
With variable tolling, the green warriors get their social control – punishing middle class workers who can’t afford to live in Sierra Club’s White Homeland (Ballard/Fremont/Queen Ann/Wallingford/Ravenna).
And you thought sales tax was regressive!
Meanwhile, the road warriors drool over congestion pricing, because their rich buddies will finally get to buy their way into the bus lanes… while the poor an middle class get jammed on to Ron Sims’ crappy buses.
Now, I would call that a “win – win” for both political fringes. If you voted No on Prop 1, welcome to the ramifications…
From the Seattle Times article, where Will got that pic:
“The state Legislature required roads and transit to go on the ballot together, in an attempt to prevent skirmishes between highway fans and pro-transit environmentalists. Instead, rail opponent Kemper Freeman called road opponent Mike O’Brien, of the Sierra Club, “my new best friend” in a campaign debate, as both opposed the measure.
Opposition leaders toasted their victory with whiskey this morning in Freeman’s Bellevue office, and discussed what to do next.
Former state Rep. Will Knedlik said his group wants to work with all opponents of Proposition 1 — including the Sierra Club — to bring a new package to voters.
The defeat is an apparent boost for “congestion pricing” — the use of pervasive tolling that varies with traffic, to discourage so-called nonessential trips. It would also raise money where taxes are lacking.
It might also be an issue where greens and some highway backers can agree, though many citizens, already paying gas taxes, would resent a fee on existing highways.”
SeattleJew: R yOu drUnck?
You post like you’re drunk.
Yeah, what we need to do now is appease the fringes and crazies. Now THAT will be a plan that flies!
Will – your post seemed vaguely familiar, and then I realized that I’d read almost the exact same thing on the Seattle Transit Blog the night before.
That was good thinking to change their headline of “Old White Dinosaurs Against Rail” to your very original idea of “Old White Guys Against Rail.” That way no one could think you were plagiarizing them without giving them credit.
http://seatrans.blogspot.com/2.....eated.html
(note – their post was dated 11/06 at 11:19pm)
@27
You’ve got to be high.
One of the weirdest things about that group of old white engineers, who all drink the Kemper Freeman Kool Aid: they may push for big freeways, but many of them were also Monorail supporters…and Personal Rapid Transit boosters. (see: The Jetsons)
Here are the names of the people in that picture (missing are Jim Horn and Richard Harkness, also members of the Whacko gadgetbahn set)
Back row, from far left: Bruce Nurse, Victor Bishop, Emory Bundy, Richard Tait, Don Padleford, Will Knedlik, Jim MacIsaac, John Niles, Bill Eager and Kathryn Serkes.
For more on the right wing gizmo nuts, see:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....cid=106089
Coincidence@29, also coincidental: these old white guys are the same old freeways dinosaurs who fought light rail back in the early ’90’s.
michael @ 30: you think I’m high, because I get worried when whacked-out fringe elements get together to screw the rest of us? Or, am I high because I think the public will never, ever accept their absurd and oppressive tolling ideas?
@ 29
It’s actually not that scandalous. Me and daimajin are both on the same email lists. I got an email that said “OWGAR” with a link to that picture. I imagine he did as well.
To be honest I am not surprised it failed. Of course I also thought it was a bad idea. This is not to be construed as I don’t think something needs to be done. I know we need to come up with plan to deal with the current (and increasing) amount of traffic. This package however was not it. First, anything which has a major portion of its funding come from a sales tax needs to be seriously questioned due to the extremely regressive nature of a sales tax (personally I’d be in favor of getting rid of state/county sales tax in favor of income taxes).
Another big strike against Prop-1 was the rail. I don’t know why people are so hard up for adding a rail network to this area. First we have the sounder commuter train which runs so infrequently as to be almost completely worthless. Run trains on that existing rail line every 15-30 min 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week (in both directions) and I might think people are serious about making a rail system usable. Second, why do we even need a rail system? What is the advantage of rail over buses? (Honest question.) Personally I would much rather see the X0 billion dollars people wanted ear-marked for putting in 50 miles of rail instead used to expand the existing bus system so it is usable.
Anecdote: I live within a block of a park and ride and the Metro planner tells me it is impossible for me to take the bus to work from that P&R. I can drive about 3-4 miles to the next closest park and ride for the honor of turning my 30 minute (total) drive into a 90 minute, with two transfers bus ride. Should I live closer to work? Certainly. So when I can afford to, I’ll be sure to move. Seriously, we need to fix the bus system to make it work for more people than those going to/from downtown.
Finally the last problem with Prop-1 is we need a solution for today. Not for 40 years from now. Why does laying 50 miles of railroad and a few hundred miles of road take 4 decades? Make a plan that will be complete (maybe not completely paid for; but completely built and usable) in
Got clipped…
(cont…)
Make a plan that will be complete (maybe not completely paid for; but completely built and usable) in
Let’s try this again…I hope this works…
(cont…)
Make a plan that will be complete (maybe not completely paid for; but completely built and usable) in
#13 Chadt:
Merci, you make my point exactemente!
And I am in accord as to your other message supporting the rail. Here in France our conservative leaders have announced a policy of no new road expansions, all the euros will be invested in rail and transit.
You may copy us if you wish to also help stop the climate change, I am sure we will not be offended.
@1:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....tid05.html
If there’s any libertarian-style justice in the world, it you be you and not me enjoying the money in your wallet as you sink to the bottom of Lake Washington when the bridge falls in.
vsoul asks, “Second, why do we even need a rail system? What is the advantage of rail over buses? (Honest question.)” Here’s a shot at responding (in good faith).
In putting the ST2 plan together ST analyzed bus and rail performance. Rail consistently outperformed bus on both ridership and travel time. Rail also cost three times less per passenger to operate. They were looking at the most heavily used corridors: I-5 north, I-5 south, and cross-lake. The flip side is rail carries a larger up-front capital cost. The debate has always been about whether those up-front costs are worthwhile to get the long term benefit.
Speaking of which, rail provides reliable travel time all day, every day, forever. Buses can’t match that performance. The reason rail does better on riders and speed is what happens to buses both in, and when, they leave the HOV lanes.
HOV lanes are very unreliable. They slow down when the GP lanes slow down. They stop when there are breakdowns or accidents, just like the other lanes. The whole grid slows down in poor weather. And when buses leave the highway, they REALLY slow down on arterials. They get stuck at lights, they have trouble getting off curbs, they have longer trips than trains into their stations to board passengers, and their overall right of way is constantly under stress by increasing demand for space by other vehicles.
Some of this can be mitigated by tolling, in order to maintain constant highway speeds. But the comparisons above assumed highway speeds for buses at all times. And no amount of tolling can address the arterial problems.
You can also get more rail-like performance from buses by giving them exclusive right of way. This, however, is expensive, and the costs start approaching those of rail, no coincidence: the right of way is the most expensive part.
Another reason (if you are still reading): ST is already building rail. They have 20 miles funded with 15 stations in three cities (Seattle, Tukwila, and Sea-Tac). The ST2 plan would have extended the lines throughout the region, adding 11 more cities to a 20-hour-a-day system with stations in the major employment and population areas of those cities.
Finally back to operating costs. ST will open the first line with two-car trains that can carry 800 people with one operator. To carry the same with buses, you’d need 10 buses (with ten CO2 emitting motors) and 10 drivers. At six-minute headways during rush hour, that’s 10 trains and operators versus 60 buses and drivers. Big operating efficiencies with rail.
I could go one. But it really boils down to making an investment in order to secure long term, permanent connections between the major cities of the region, a network that will always perform effectively regardless of what’s going on in the road grid (and immune to its deficiencies.)
The pic is actually representative of about half the people who voted. Low turnout handed this election to old cranks like me and the people in the pic. The Seattle Times has also finally exposed a meeting of the editors in charge of their transportation reporting for the past year or so.
It is a priceless photo that captures many of the people who have obsessed themselves with killing modern rail transit around here for most all of their adult lives. They’d rather be right (in their minds) and keep everyone stuck in traffic than do anything they oppose, no matter the cost. They have succeeded in making everything more expensive for all of us and none of them have ever solved any congestion. Ever.
This group’s unifying message: No More Light Rail. Half of them would just want us to sprawl with more roads. The other half just wants more buses dispersed over the big road system the other guys want.
They might need to pass before we ever get the system that most people around here want and need.
Expect an announcement funded by Kemper Freeman (who keeps these guys in good and drink) demanding something called something like “performance based transportation planning.” The concept is explained on the website of the Heritage Foundation, which promotes using a concept to measure performance based on how many miles of freeway you have compared to how many people you have.
The formula is the basis of the Texas Transportation Institute’s annual road building promotion pretending to be a congestion study (which actually does no real measuring of traffic congestion.) It has been promoted by Freeman and some of the guys in the pic for many years. The state auditor just spent $1.7 million to promote the idea after meeting with these same people.
Just so you know, there is no performance measure related to carbon reduction and greenhouse gases in the state auditor’s $1.7 million cut and paste of the Heritage Foundation’s ideas. The most important factor in this type of planning is more road lane miles.
The irony, of course, is that voters just rejected what was probably the last best hope of the road guys in the pic to actually build the roads they always say they want.
I you’re confused, don’t worry. None of this has ever made any sense.
@42,
“The irony, of course, is that voters just rejected what was probably the last best hope of the road guys in the pic to actually build the roads they always say they want.”
Yes, I think you’re quite right about that — cheer up, people!
Psycho-Babbling Intellectualizing Self-Aggrandizing Liberal Wonks Theorists And Environmental Hair-Splitters Holdup Public Transportation
Northwest Liberals Shoot Themselves In the Foot And Help Stop Real Public Transportation Improvements Again With Defeat of Roads and Transit Prop. 1
Click on the above name artistdogboy permalink to read my hot under the collar post about the road and transit vote
Manny: When you wrote above “whacked-out fringe elements” you perfectly described most of Goldy’s thread writing friends and the large majority of those whom think left here.
a big THANK YOU for being succinct. About time someone on your side writes the truth.
Hey White Rose, Manny is like Chris Dodd and John Edwards telling Hilary off! He is the local version!
Waaaa haaaa haaaa haaaahaaaa haaaa haaaa haaaa haaaa!
Clarity: “HOV lanes are very unreliable. They slow down when the GP lanes slow down. They stop when there are breakdowns or accidents, just like the other lanes.”
Why is this?
In FUWA you can enter and exit HOV lanes as you please. Because of this when the GPLs slow down some liberal fool will jump into the HOV and they have to slow down.
On Long Island you enter and exit HOV lanes in certain spots. Get caught doing it and it’s a big fine. Only allow this in certain FUWA areas and flow improves. This is true for specific exit areas to leave I-5 and I-405. People wait until the last second to exit HOV lanes and everyone else has to slow down.
Next you have the drive @ 60 MPH fool. Sure the speed limit is 60, but this slows down the HOV lane too.
But the biggest problem is the single occupant who has tinted windows and drives in those lanes in the early morning trying to get away. Put police at hidden turnoffs with thermal cameras. Make the fine similar to California (since we have their emissions rules, have their fine rules too. In California, each time you illegally cross the line it’s $271. So I know of a dude who crossed into the lane twice in front of a CHP and paid 4x$271. Yep. Gave his credit card. When you enter HOV it’s one crossing. Get pulled over the the left side you pay $542 because you must cross the line to get out of HOV when you sign the ticket.
Soooooooooooo, put more police on the highway and enforce the HOV restriction and the lanes will open up.
Why did I write some liberal fool will jump into the HOV?
Well per Pelletizer and his many “whacked-out fringe element” friends FUWA is a blue state. If you look at the NOs to I-960 most came from King County. Need I say more?
@34
The environmental community and, “The Road Warriors” were never together on this in the first place. Yes, we were both apposed to Prop. 1, but for very different reasons. The alliance wont continue because their never was one.
The Sierra Club is a very large very main stream group and the Prop 1 vote proves this out. The majority of people voted with the club. You can’t be, “The Fringe” when 55% or so of the people agree with you.
55% of “the people” do not agree with the Sierra Club, they just voted the same way.
It is easy to oppose something. Now lets see you morons push something forward. I bet you’ll be surprised when you find out that you can’t get a consensus around your ideas.
More naysayers – just what this world needs.
@50
Listening to KUOW and reading the paper I’m already hearing lots of good ideas from people that the environmental community could support.
ST1 and the growth management act both of which the environmental community helped make happen are chugging along.
“when you find out that you can’t get a consensus around your ideas.”
LOL…
The environmental community already has…
Old White Guys? I am sick of that worn-out pejorative.
The reason Prop1 went down is that voters see how the gas tax revenue is being poorly managed. Why throw more good money after money stolen…
Goldie, your unabashedly liberal perspective is quite myopic.
re 53: I guess that I-5 repair last summmer was just more money frittered?
@39
I am glad, Marcel, that somebody on the planet has some sense.
Wine and transit…merci beaucoup !
>The environmental community already has…
Uh, no. You promote ideas that haven’t gained any consensus, and won’t make it to a ballot much less gain a majority. You allied with anti-rail folks, and now you think you can get a rail only package passed? You’re full of it. All you have done, is promote doing nothing.
I suppose you think BRT will work too.
Prop. 1 wasn’t perfect, no doubt. But it was the best shot we had at forming a majority consensus until the purists decided to jump up on a soap box.
Morons.
@50
You’re miss representing what the environmental community has been working for.
Have you ever heard of the wilderness act? The clean air act? The clean water act? The growth management act? Those wouldn’t be in place if it weren’t for the environmental community. I think there’s a consensus that those are a good thing.
The environmental community helped get Sound Transit formed and helped get the light rail that we now have going. I heard Frank Chopp on the radio yesterday and he was talking about exactly what we in the environmental community have been talking about for the last decade in.
So stow it.
Wait a second, I thought we were talking about the defeated transporation package that included 50 miles of rail, as well as some roads that a lot of folks want. Now you want to change the topic to GMA? Now I’m LOL.
Hey Michael, what do you drive? I heard it is an SUV…
Roads don’t cause traffic, people who have no alternative to driving cause traffic. There are more people all the time, and the current type of bus transit isn’t a good alternative to even SOV car travel. Rail would be.
BTW, I’m not miss representing, nor am I mr representing. You can just call me Aaron. I’ll just call you moron.
Speaking as a young white woman who voted against Prop. 1, I have a handful of insights:
Any proposition which identifies itself as a “roads and transit” bill ought to have more than a few token road projects. Whether anyone likes it or not, the truth is that the majority of commuters use cars. Attempting to ignore roads in favor of spending money on costly public transit programs that compete with cars is just as wrongheaded as insisting on abstinence-based sex education in school, even though you know most of the teens are already sexually active.
Why do I use my car? Because taking the bus is vastly more time-consuming and troublesome. I live in the suburbs, literally several miles from the nearest bus stop. To use an actual recent experience, let’s say I need to take my young niece to the dentist. I could walk the several miles to the bus stop, board a bus, transfer to another bus, then walk another distance to the destination, all while trying to placate a young child with a sore mouth. If I timed everything just right, I might be able to make this journey in 45 minutes, not counting walk time. Or I could just take my car and get from my door to the dentist’s waiting room in a bit over 15 minutes.
I would only use public transit if I had no other choice. And that’s what bothered me the most about several proponents of Prop. 1. Instead of attempting to create a system that would actually get people out of their cars voluntarily–a system that lives where people live and takes them where they want to go swiftly, cheaply and dependably–the proponents of the light rail system seem determined to pry people from their cars via punitive taxation. Free hint: DON’T DO THAT. It just pisses people off and makes them more determined than ever to vote down the transit bills that do come along, even if they’re well designed and well thought out (another free hint: Prop. 1 was not).
You can whine and bitch about “wealthy white guys” bringing Prop. 1 down if you like, but it’s not very useful. Any future transit proposition which has even the barest chance of passing must take these upper-middle-class and upper-class demographics into account, as their taxes will provide the lion’s share of the money needed to build the transit system. Bite the hand that feeds you, and you get nothing. While lower-income voters may be most in favor of public transit for obvious reasons, they won’t be a significant source of tax monies to pay for it. Your Old White Guys Against Rail, on the other hand, will.
Come on, people, you’re progressives. You believe any problem can be solved if you throw enough money at it. So get some taxes together and create a think tank that comes up with a transit solution that actually makes people *want* to use it. Or get used to putting up with a rickety but filled-to-capacity Alaskan Way Viaduct for many years–or at least until another earthquake causes tragic results.
I sincerely hope any responses will address the issues I’ve mentioned, rather than attempting to slay the messenger.
“Fantasies, by their nature, involve a lot of wishful thinking. And fantasies can’t serve as blueprints until they’re ruthlessly pruned of all the make-believe.” –Jo Robinson & Jean Staehli
Careful, Will. Someday you’ll be an old guy too.