(Source: WA OFM)
I wasn’t going to post this particular graph as it should be pretty damn obvious from the previous post that full-time equivalent (FTE) state employees couldn’t possibly be growing out of whack, what with state government steadily shrinking as a percentage of the economy, and employee compensation representing the largest chunk of government outlays. But the question was raised in the previous thread, along with the word “bloated,” so, well, here it is.
Again, I know the Republicans and their surrogates in the media keep pounding home the point that state and local government spending is out of control, but that doesn’t make it true.
Goldy–
Have you ever heard of “Economies of Scale”?
Trying to compare State Spending with population and personal income is ridiculous.
GDP is the fairest way….and Gregoire has drastically escalated spending beyond the State GDP Growth as evidenced by her very own OFM numbers.
Another assumption you seem to be making is that drastic increases in spending during the economic bubble are reasonable benchmarks for future spending. In other words, Democrats go on an unsustainable spending spree but that becomes the new benchmark.
Bad try Goldy===No Sale.
Look at the fabulous letter the Evergreen Freedom Foundation sent to Gregoire 3 weeks ago or so…with no response.
It has very specific recommendations.
http://www.effwa.org/files/pdf/LettertoGov.pdf
Only problem is the State Employee Union Bosses say NO WAY..and Gregoire has a proven track record of doing whatever they tell her to do.
But hey, raising the State Employee Health Insurance contribution from 12 to 15%…WOW!
Until these recommendations are given serious consideration in an open public debate, you will get no sympathy for your assertion that folks in Washington State are undertaxed Goldy.
That is precisely what you are saying, right?
Raise taxes, don’t cut expenses.
The Goldstein Formula for long-term economic disaster!
That’s bullshit, Cynical, and you know it. The metric that most closely tracks growth in demand for government services is growth in personal income. Period. I’ve linked to this dozens of times before, explained it ad nauseam, and still you ignore it.
Furthermore, I’m providing 30-year snapshots, and you continue to use the 2001-2003 downturn as your starting point, as if the previous three decades don’t count. Yes, spending increased by nearly every metric in 2004. But that was coming off a near 30-year low, and a steady 15-year decline.
But you don’t really care. No, you don’t want to have the debate over the proper size and scope of government, because your side gradually wins simply by avoiding it.
@1 Al the Pal
Using apples to apples comparision Washington state’s GDP has increased 31% since 2004 to 2009. Washington state’s budget actually is behind the GDP in actual growth. According to the BEA our GSP increased from 258,069 million to 338,334 million. While our state budget increased from 33,478,795,000 to 43,675,887,000 using OFM’s total state budget a 30% increase. The state budget using OFM NGFS numbers (also used by the Senate Republicans) only show a 20% increase. In fact the state budget decreased 5% from the 2007-2009 biennium to the 2009-2011 biennium
@2
Let’s track state employee pay to the GSP then if it’s that important.
@2
Why would she respond to complete crap?
@Goldy,
Unfortunately, not only do you need to post this graph, you need to post it every day for the next 6 months.
Pyrite,
Interesting Graph, but what the graphic fails to take into account is new/additional benifits that have increase the cost of “government.” These benifits act as a double hit to the funding of government.
Merry Christmas!
re 2: Look at the fabulous letter….
Fabulous? Hmmmnnnnn…………..
Government interference in the activities of criminals just blunts the free market from curtailing their activities by dint of attrition of potential victims.
Goldy knows this, but avoids dealing with it by presenting ‘graphs’ and factual material.
@6
I had precisely the same thought as I read that sentence.
Glenno @8,
Post a link. If you’re gonna make a statement of fact, post a link to back it up.
But of course, you can’t.
Is #8 saying that the government can just magically attract workers? That they don’t have to compete with private employers? Is magic fairy dust involved?
I swear to Bob the GOP is paying people to be forum/FaceBook/Twitter trolls, they take on anything that is in opposition to their rhetoric (read: anything that makes sense and has evidence, regardless if it’s good policy or not) and post a bunch on nonsensical screeds that try to discredit who they’re currently railing against without ever making an actual point. “Cut spending, but we don’t know what to cut.” “Taxes are bad but we have no original fucking ideas for new sources of revenue” Save it for your weekly Glenn Beck MeetUp group.
Pyrite,
#’s 8 & 12
I don’t have a link, just common sense. Maybe you can building model that includes these costs.
Insurance and other benifits used to be a small part of the cost of the employee, not more then 10%. Now there heading up to 30% of the someones salary. Remember Labor costs is usally the majority party of the cost of any government program.
Example: Every teacher gets $1,800 in dental care every year.
Merry Christmas
@15
War on Xmas indeed. Now Merry Christmas is being used to subsitute for Fuck you.
(Sighing, like a high school math teacher having to explain addition and subtraction to the football team again):
GDP is a poor method of measuring government spending because demand for state services goes UP when the GDP goes down, and vice-versa. Workers collecting unemployment benefits are just the largest and most visable example, but there are lots of other people impacted by an economic downturn who can’t collect benefits (self employed, recent graduates who now can’t find a job, families that are now homeless and without medical care because of loss of income by the primary wage earner, etc.). And don’t forget the cascading effect as other business contract (i.e., lay off workers, buy less inventory, etc.) when their customer base becomes unemployed.
People who insist that government should be run like a business forget (or choose to ignore) the basic differences between public service and private operations. Government steps in when, by necessity, private business is unable or unwilling to fill the need. Government should increase it’s spending during rescessionary times because (a) it helps the economy recover faster when it does so, and (b) it can obtain labor and goods cheaper during a rescession. And for any goods or service provided by the government, it has to do so in a fair manner which treats citizens equally and according to established rules and regulations – it can’t decide to exclude some because they are more expensive to deal with, or more trouble, or just because they don’t want to.
Glenno @15,
Well, as long as you insist on pulling numbers out of your ass, I see no reason to treat you as if you’re credible.
BigSid @ 14
Of course. That’s a given.
The fall of once mighty Digg is in no small part due to people’s disgust at learning how thoroughly trolled it was.
Not all trolls need to be paid, of course. There are plenty of useful idiots willing to work for free. Camp followers, groupies, wannabes, poseurs. Whatever their individual motivations, they’ve been thoroughly conditioned to faithfully repeat whatever they’re told.
rhp @ 17
Great post. You’ve made this point before. I’ll work harder to incorporate it into my own polemics.
glenno @ 15
You crack me up.
You remind me of a former coworker. An “enterprise architect”. Oh so wise.
Over margaritas in a bar late at night, he scribbled on a napkin, declared it our new architecture, and bequeathed it unto us, saying “There, I’ve done the hard part. Now you just have to build it.”
He, like you, was a true radiant visionary and genius.
@ 21
I’ve worked for machinists that do that shit. Then they get all pissy when you ask for tolerances or missing dimensions.
@ 15, Glenno
Uh, you are totally full of shit.
Are you really blaming the State Employees for the costs of their health insurance? Are you really saying that since the insurance companies have jacked their prices up nearly 400% in the last ten years that we just cannot afford to have the State employ people anymore?
C’mon, thats the epitome of deliberately obtuse crap.
Cyn you don’t live here, you live in Montana. Why do you continue on your relentless attempts to destroy WA state, when the only tie you have to this state is some property.
And you relentless advocate for some out of state solution.
Blue John–
So rather than participate in a debate, you surrender. Shame on you!
@24. Rather, I would like it if you shut up on Washington Politics until you actually live here. You don’t have a stake in what it’s like like LIVE in Washington state, so you can advocate all sorts of wrongheaded and down right destructive policies. Because after all, it doesn’t effect you personally.
Goldy–
Here is the kind of feel-good BS that really pisses taxpayers off. Justify this from the Washington Policy Center–
Washington is a Prisoner to Wasteful Energy Projects
Would you spend $880,000 to save $147,000?
Washington State did.
Blue John–
I pay more taxes in Washington State than you do.
Now, justify the Green Jail investment.
You can’t.
It’s stupid.
Between this and many many examples of waste in Ferries and other areas, WTF should taxpayers pay more until waste is brought under control??
@26 I noticed you didn’t provide a link.
Pretty cool
http://coyoteridge.rem-systems.com/
Wonder where the grants came from?
@27 Why does how much you pay in taxes make you think you are entitled to spew your relentless desire to turn WA state in to Somalia?
When did our democracy become 1 tax dollar, 1 vote? Is that really what you believe? Want to go back to where only land owners can vote?
By that messed up logic, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steven Ballmer, Jeffrey Bezos and Craig McCaw should be the rulers of WA state.
Mr Cynical @ 26
Let me see if I got this right: You’re criticizing an investment. Building a core competency. Creating demand for new technology. Government spending has long been used to jump start emerging markets. Duh.
Why do oppose Washington State becoming a player in the emerging alternative energy markets?
It troubles me that you hate our state so much.
blue @ 29
Mr Cynical struggles to explain his disjoint and contradictory beliefs. But on that issue he’s been crystal clear: Money has rights, people don’t.
@26
Coyote Ridge saves around $370,000 worth of energy costs a year over what a normally built prison would. I’d say the total cost is far more important then the cost of any one part. ;->
Coyote Ridge also got around 45% of it’s building materials from local sources, which means jobs for people in Washington. Which I think is a good thing.
I find it hard to believe Cynical is really against building jails.
Like Troll said the other day:
“More guns = Less crime”
We need to release our prisoners and present each one with a gun.
Hey, Cyn…be careful what you wish for, lest you actually get it.
It’ll be something of a hollow victory if you end up paying less in Washington State taxes because the property you own here isn’t worth anything.
Funny thing about the cost of dental care…
Three-quarters of a century ago, dentists made a few bucks putting in amalgam fillings, then made one big score with each patient in early middle age, pulling out most or all of his or her teeth and putting in a set of dentures.
Now, thanks to flouridation (which the right-wing nutbags fought tooth and nail against), many if not most Americans are not only living longer, but taking most of the teeth God gave them to the grave when they finally croak. This is generally one hell of a lot better from a quality-of-live point of view, but it does mean that all those mouths full of “natural” teeth need a degree of regular maintenance.
13,895 Trillion and counting, I guess the broke liberals in Washington state won’t get any more from the Broke Liberals in DC. Shame, we’ll just watch the whole country go bankrupt. I wonder how all those guvmnt pensions for life will be funded once the bottom falls out of the US money?
What’s Pretty Damn Obvious Goldy, is the wages, benefits, and pensions are what is out of order compared with the private sector today, who are shedding benefits, wages, and pension liablities to stay afloat in this damn mess of an economy, and over taxation!
@38…
Shorter LD:
@38
agreed it is a messed up economy
but the ‘too much taxation’ is a brain lesion
all workers will be serfs in the New American feudalism
150 Billion Dollars in new debt in one month, and running a 2 trillion dollar deficit, 11.5% unemployment, while new trade agreements are being negotiated, not to mention Muni’s collapsing, 401k’s evaporating, and Obama’s own debt commissions dire recommendations being totally ignored.
And I’m the one who doesn’t understand basic financial bankruptcy?
If it hasn’t hit you it soon will!
Pyrite and others…
#18, 21 & 22
Must have touched the truth nerve with you!
Ask any school teacher about the $1,800.00 for dental care. Note: its phased in over 4 years. They pay 70% the first year, 80% the second year, 90% the third year and 100% from the 4th year on. This for the whole family, not just the teacher/school employee.
Do you guys have that kind of dental insurance? Pretty soon they will start charging taxes on Blogs and for each posting.
Merry Christmas!
And they are cutting medical care for the poor, while pouring out those kinds of Premo benefits.
They got their priorities up their …
@44 Liberal Democrat
We all voted for the income tax initiative and against the pop and soda tax recall initiative, but we lost. Does it make any sense to punish public sector workers? None of them ever get bonuses or stock options. You’re right our corporate overlords have slashed healthcare benefits and pensions for their workers just to show record profits for their stockholders. How does the government punish them, with massive bailouts. I hear you brother, we need to help the weakest in our society, but the best way is to provide decent jobs for all. We need more unions and provide them greater protection under the law. That way we can prevent the tyranny of the 1% who threaten to destroy our democracy.
“Republicans and their surrogates in the media keep pounding home the point that state and local government spending is out of control, but that doesn’t make it true.”
If Republicans don’t believe that repeating a lie countless times will make it come true, they believe it’ll at least make their dumb cluck folllowers believe it’s true.
@2 Yawn. The highly paid lobbyists at EFF want to balance the state budget by slashing the pay and benefits of low-paid state workers. Anyone see anything new in this?
#44 & 45
The public employees got the better end of deal…3% to 5% raises really adds up over 20 years!
Remember this? Talk about a Golden Parachute!
http://www.nydailynews.com/opi.....s_are.html
Forgot one thing…
Merry Christmas
@2 “Raise taxes, don’t cut expenses.”
Speaking of BULLSHIT (see, e.g., Goldy’s reply to goatfucker @3), or more precisely GOAT SHIT (you know, the brown stuff smeared all over klown’s pecker), Washington has cut expenses (by laying off thousands of state workers and slashing billions from public services) and those billions have been passed on to Washington residents as tax cuts. That’s right, Washingtonians are paying billions of dollars less in taxes than they were a few years ago.
Raise taxes? Don’t cut expenses? Nah. Taxes have been cut. Expenses have been cut. And Cynical has his head so far up a goat’s cunt he can’t see what is plain to everyone else.
Ok Pyrite,
Found my information that you use in a chart…
This is the same reason why Washington State is having trouble…
These and other sweeteners are part of the reason why the city’s annual pension payout has increased 900% since 2000. And that’s before health care benefits are included. For every dollar police officers contribute to their retirement, taxpayers contribute nine. Mayor Bloomberg’s office warns that if one thing pushes New York City into bankruptcy again – 35 years after the last time – it will be pensions.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opi.....z193BT3B5T
By the way, where’s all this marvelous economic growth and job creation that’s supposed to flow from cutting billions from state taxes and spending?
@51 How is what they do in NYC relevant to us here in Washington? Also, do you think NYC cops are overpaid? A corollary question is, do you think bankers and Goldman Sachs partners are underpaid and mistreated?
@8 What benefits? I’m a retired state employee and I have friends who still work in state goverment and they tell me the only new “benefits” they’ve seen since the recession hit are pay freezes, hiring freezes, higher workloads, and unpaid furlough days.
@15 “I don’t have a link, just common sense.”
You have a grossly inflated sense of what you have.
Heh, Glenno gets his news from a Murdoch newspaper.
Um, dipshit. This is Washington, the State, over on the other coast.
Fucking imbecile.
@15 “Every teacher gets $1,800 in dental care every year.”
WOW!!! Eighteen fucking hundred DOLLARS of dental care EVERY YEAR!!! WOW!!! That must explain why all the bankers, mortgage brokers, and loan flippers are lining up to grab teaching jobs!!!
@23 Yup, Cynical is an absentee landlord, one of those guys who lives in a low-taxes state and pulls money out of our state while giving nothing back.
@24 But I gotta admit that Cynical can be funny, when he works at it.
#52 RR (Pyrites Brother)…
Remember that WA State is bring in $1.5 billion more then they did two years ago…
Pssst … fellow liberals … should I tell Cynical he’s getting his ass kicked in this thread (again), or should we keep that as our little secret?
#57 RR (Pyrites Brother)
I don’t know of any private company that comes close to offering this kind of benefit.
FYI…
@48 My friends working in Washington state government don’t give a flying fuck what New York public workers got … that doesn’t help them any. The topic of this thread is Washington state, not New York. The only reason you’re throwing New York at us is because you have no argument where Washington is concerned.
@49 Happy Holidays back to ya.
Glenno must be one of the unpaid trolls because I can’t imagine anyone, not even a Republican, paying anything for his lameass drivel.
@38 What’s pretty damn obvious to everyone but you is that the more you cut worker pay the smaller an economy you’ll end up with.
The cheap labor conservatives are here in full-court-press mode. Their political and economic platform has only one plank: Cut worker pay. They think that solves everything.
What if workers refuse to work for what they want to pay? What will the cheap labor conservatives do then? Do the work themselves? I’d like to see that!!
In 1910, billions of dollars of publicly owned timber in Idaho and Montana burned to ashes because anti-government conservatives in Congress refused to give the U.S. Forest Service money to buy picks and shovels.
U.S. Forest Service rangers fighting the 1910 “Big Burn” fires had to buy food for the fire crews out of their own pockets from their $800 annual salaries.
@62 That’s not surprising, considering how little you know about the real world.
I have a question for you, Glenno. If state employment is so lucrative, how come all the people whose personal values center around making money and having flashy lifestyles work in the private sector? How many state employees live in million-dollar homes and drive Porsches? Hmmmm?
I’m a Vietnam veteran. I got spit on, pushed, and called names when I came home. The people who did that took out their frustration with the government’s war policies on the soldiers who had no say in what those policies were. That was wrong. Today, people who hate government take out their frustration with government on the underpaid, overworked, and much-abused people who work for government. That is every bit as dishonorable as what the spitters and name callers did 40 years ago.
Given that many former hippies and radicals are now money-grubbing Republicans, I think they’re the same people, still pulling the same shit they did 40 years ago.
#69 RR=Pyrites Brother
Provide link:
Merry Christmas
#72 RR=Pyrites Brother
Why risk every if the government is going to take everything from you…most people will settle for the 3% increase.
Merry Christmas
#73 RR/Pyrites Brother
Thank you for your service in Vietnam.
Merry Christmas
Pyrite & RR…
Here is more proof about public benifits for Washington State and the other 49 states are in trouble…Remember the D’s have bascially controlled this state for the last 20 plus years.
http://www.tableausoftware.com.....ension-viz
Of course it’s not true. But you forgot…Republicans, well, lie. They make shit up. They’re not factual. They’ll full of shit. Obama is a secret Muslim. Obama is a radical anti-white Christian. Obama isn’t an American. Death Panels will kill grandma! The Earth is 6,000 years old! Government employees get paid more than private sector employees!
Republicans are either (or both) dumb and uninformed. They watch Fake News(tm) after all. Glen Beck is where they get their “information”(tm). What do you expect? All the smart folks, the folk who can send a satellite to orbit the moons of Saturn, those are Democrats. The crazy stupid, those are Republicans.
Say, didn’t Forbes say we’re the 5th BEST state in entire nation to do business in? And we’ve been controlled by Democrats for decades. Huh. How is that? Hmmmm.
#79 WDYE
FORBES doesn’t include B&O tax in there calculations.
Merry CHRISTmas
Kiss your fat A guvment pensions goodbye folks:
State’s Unfunded Liabilities are Whopping $24.1 Billion, Says State Auditor – Pension Problems are Just the Start
http://www.washingtonstatewire....._start.htm
Sontag has it correct…
” But a lot of it isn’t common knowledge, and when you start adding everything up, the sum is big trouble. “
Oh and:
Merry Christmas!
Is Santa Claus a wealth re-distributor?
Happy Holidays..
Merry CHRISTmas everyone. Notice what said Happy Holidays!
“CHRISTmas”
There it is again. Sigh! You guys and your thing for caps.
Merry Christmas, Puddy.
Is fighting the latest recreational war of choice (marshalled to the front by Billo and friends..)
toooooooooo predictable indeed…