If you thought yesterday’s post on dog poop bags was just a quick toss-off, well think again, for the moment I saw the Seattle Times/AP piece on cash-strapped Everett spending $8,430 on plastic dog poop bags, I immediately recognized an opportunity to provoke a conversation on what I believe to be the most pernicious aspect of today’s conservative movement: its stubborn insistence on choosing ideology over reality.
And at least in this regard, my comment thread did not disappoint:
6. Rae spews:
How about dog owners’ be responsible and thus, bring their own poop bags? This isn’t a public service at all, but yet another way the liberal government is sending a message that people aren’t or don’t have to take responsibility for their own actions. Want to have kids? Let someone else feed them, clothe them, provide day care for them. Want a dog? Provide poop bags. Get real.
22. The Riddle of Steel spews:
Why cant dog owners(who apparntly can afford to own a dog) purchase their own shit-bags instead of making everyone else pay for them?
This has to one of the stupidest fucking govt programs I have ever heard of. Its shit like this that pisses people off and keeps them from voting for higher taxes.
mommy govt at its finest…..
Of course, in a sense, both Rae and Riddle are right; dog owners should be more responsible about cleaning up after their pets, and there are many other things I’d rather spend taxpayer money on than plastic poop bags. Personally, I rarely leave the house without a ready poop bag in my back right pocket, and neither should any other conscientious dog owner. (Next time you see me, ask me to show you my poop bag; I bet I’ll have one.)
But this ideologically driven, moralistic approach ignores the fact that the free-dog-poop-bag policy itself has proven damn effective at keeping dog shit off the soles of our shoes, and out of our waterways.
Fecal coliform bacteria is one of the most serious pollutants in many of our nation’s urban streams, and modern DNA tests routinely trace the majority of the contamination back to dog waste. That’s why, in an effort to combat both this very real health concern, and the general nuisance factor of unpicked-up poop, municipalities nationwide have pursued a coordinated campaign that includes general public outreach and education, the creation of dedicated off-leash parks with adequate waste handling facilities, and yes… providing and stocking taxpayer funded poop bag dispensers at parks, trails and other popular dog walking routes.
Municipalities maintain this expense, even in the face of dramatic budget cuts, because it works… not just due to the convenience, but because the mere visible presence of these bag dispensers and waste receptacles is socially reinforcing, resulting in a dramatically higher compliance rate with existing pooper scooper laws. From a public health and quality of life perspective, few public expenditures produce such bang for the buck as the $8,430 Everett spends on plastic poop bags.
But that’s not good enough for the personal responsibility crowd. The mere notion of spending public dollars on something individuals should do for themselves offends their sensibilities. And so they would prefer to see their public sidewalks, parks and trails covered in shit than admit that sometimes, reality trumps ideology.
Substitute poop bags with condoms or sex education or health insurance or the minimum wage or unemployment compensation extensions or carbon credits or marriage equality or “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” or any number of other issues, and you begin to understand why conservatives are so passionately opposed to so many of the policies we in the reality-based community consider no-brainers.
This is the real problem with modern conservatism… not the ideology itself, which even I admit has something to contribute to the public debate, but its relentlessly dogmatic exercise. Today’s conservatives seem so obsessed with how people should behave, that they have little or no tolerance for how people actually do behave. So steeped in faith — faith in God, faith in the market, faith in American mythology, faith in their personalized reading of the Constitution — nothing will stop today’s conservative leaders from advocating what should work over what actually does.
And that’s why, when finally given the reins over both Congress and the White House, the Republicans so spectacularly stepped in it.
UPDATE:
In the thread, HA reader Rae only reinforces my thesis by attempting to defend her previous comments:
I don’t know if I should be flattered or po’d. But you’ve missed the mark. By providing poop bags, the government has just reinforced their beliefs that the population is incapable of being responsible. And I personally object to being thought incapable of being responsible.
She objects, on principle, to a policy that works. Exactly.
Reading the headline and lede I thought you’d lost it.
But wow, that’s actually a really good point.
I don’t know if I should be flattered or po’d. But you’ve missed the mark. By providing poop bags, the government has just reinforced their beliefs that the population is incapable of being responsible. And I personally object to being thought incapable of being responsible.
Rae @2,
Yes, you personally object on principle, rather than accept the fact that the public dispensers have proven hugely successful in cleaning up our sidewalks, parks and trails. I understood your point exactly, and your reiteration of it reinforces mine.
@3 I guess that means you agree that the public is incapable of being responsible. How sad. Or that we can’t expect them to be.
Rae – It is not that all people are irresponsible, but that enough of them are to make these kind of programs the most cost-effective and reasonable solution to what can actually be a serious problem.
If you have a better solution than covering your eyes and pretending the world is as you wish it to be, then please offer solutions. If you simply want to moralize and make yourself feel superior then you have nothing to add to the solution and are part of the problem.
Most concise yet powerful explanation of conservative/reactionary thinking I’ve read in a long while. Kudos.
And Rae just digs deeper. Yes, Rae, we understand your position. Goldy is merely explaining why your position leads to crap (in this instance literally).
Not to dig deeper, but this is just another example of enabling…which the libs are oh, at which the libs are so good.
“By providing poop bags, the government has just reinforced their beliefs that the population is incapable of being responsible.”
Does the same conservative philosophy apply to a city providing a police department? Doesn’t having cops on the street just reinforce a belief that the population is incapable of being responsible?
We take our dogs hiking several times a week on forest trails. My wife and I have taken personal responsibility for training the dogs to poop in the grass and shrubs by the side of the trail — which the dogs unfailingly do — as do my wife and I.
The one glitch in the poop bag theory is that the dutiful scooper of the poop will transport the bag out of the forest and to a proper receptacle.
Sadly, this is rarely the case. One will encounter many steaming bags of poo along the trail that are now not only an eyesore, but one that will not decay.
“another example of enabling”
Enabling what? The removal of dogshit?
Rae,
With each post, you’re just digging yourself deeper. You plainly just don’t get it.
The conservatives object to spending money on poop bags, but I will just bet you that they would not be averse to a privatized posse of poop Marshalls with the power to write tickets — even though the posse of private poop Marshalls would be hundreds of times more expensive than the bags — but it would satisfy the conservative Puritanical urge to PUNISH!!!!
Enabling the dog owners to not bother buying or using, and apparently properly disposing, of doggie poop bags. It’s not that hard, but I guess so many people are incapable of it, that the taxpayers have to pick up the tab.
It’s like that in a lot of areas…but I’m not longer bored and have decided to, take my dog for a walk!
I commented on that story, just because I thought the cost of the bags were too high. That is my only complaint about this program. Some gov’t procurement guy didn’t put in a lot of effort to find these bags on the cheap. I found poop bags on google at retail that were half the cost they paid.
Poop bags = good
Lazy buyers = bad
“you’re just digging yourself deeper”
When a wingnut has dug a deep hole for themselves, I say we progressives should encourage them to dig even deeper.
@13 I’m sure you’ll be a good conservative and bring the dogshit home with you.
Because dog owners don’t pay taxes or pet license fees? Is that what Rae’s arguing?
Maybe this is how the those taxpayers want to see their taxes spent.
re 13: The Seattle nanny states tax on plastic bags gives the poop bag user in the free market A DISINCENTIVE TO ACQUIRE COST EFFECTIVE POOP BAGS.
And the cloth shopping bags bought at such outposts of hippiedom as PCC are far too expensive to be a viable poo bag source.
In addition, small amounts of the dog poo work their way through the cloth fibers.
It is my belief that Seattle’s interference with the free market of free plastic bags at the grocery store is what is causing the state such funding problem — That, and expensive ferry worker unions.
Personally, I think they should put dogs in poop bags and toss them into the dumpster! Dogs are good for nothing! All they do is eat, sleep, shit, and chase rabbits. If you get rid of dogs, you won’t need poop bags anymore, and everybody will be happy. Especially us rabbits!
Yeah, forget Afghanistan, Iraq, and the other insurgencies… forget Guantanamo, the GM and Sachs bailout, the problem with government is we overspend on dogshit bags! Let’s name ’em Obamabags, or Gregoirebags…if we could just get a grip on this dogshit, we could cut taxes!
I’m as glad I’m as old as I am…what a bunch of idiots. Hey Nero, Nero….there’s a fire out here!
As one of your local contributing conservatives, you will be shocked that I agree with your reasoning. Other then fringe nut jobs who don’t believe in any government (or only in the parts they really like, such as prisons) there are conservatives who want clean water, clean air, and NO POOP on their walking trails.
True conservative ideals aren’t about hating everything the government does, but rather asking the question: Are we getting a good value, is this something that we as individuals can’t or won’t provide for ourselves? In this case, clean water wins out over individual responsibility, as do many other of the items you mention. All good things, that the government should provide. All I as a “thinking conservative” ask is that we get good value for our money.
@21 & Goldy
Great posts by the both of you.
@1
Walking along Harborview is much more pleasant since the city started stocking poop bags.
The Duke @21,
Thanks for your comment, and I don’t mean to imply that all conservatives choose ideology over reality, just that this the general trend amongst conservative leaders these days.
My husband worked for the Bellevue Parks Dept for several years. Bellevue provided Mutt Mitts in some parks but not others. My husband reports that there was a lot more poop in Mutt Mitt-less parks than in the Mutt Mitt-ed ones. And more poop means more work for the park employees. So it’s cheaper for the city to provide the Mutt Mitts.
Another reason for the city to provide the poop bags is that even responsible pet owners goof up once in a while. They forget to bring a bag, or Bowser poops twice, instead of just once, or you discover a hole in the bag just as you’re about to scoop the poop. Why should some innocent stroller in the park get punished just because some some other guy who was trying to be responsible had an unforseen problem?
Back from the walk. Which was on my own property, so the poop can stay in the pasture.
What about this: a donation box right next to the poop bag dispenser?
All niceties aside, the underlying and correct message is that conservative kneejerk ideology is best contained in a government provided dog poop bag and should be consigned to the nearest government supplied poo-bag receptacle — where it can be recycled as the Weeky Standard.
Wisepunk @ 14: I, too, was a bit surprised at the cost of the bags. I didn’t go into the details of the story (how much time should one devote in a day to a story about dog poop?), but after a moment’s consideration I thought that there might be two reasonable explanations.
The first was that perhaps it was a bulk purchase, which brought the price p/bag down to a reasonable level, even if it gave the Parks Dept. several years worth of supply.
The second possible explanation is that the cost included the bag-dispenser stations, which would be permanant improvements and would have required Parks maintenance staff to install.
Emily @ 25: “there was a lot more poop in Mutt Mitt-less parks than in the Mutt Mitt-ed ones.”
Try saying that ten times in a row after a couple of beers….
“And so they would prefer to see their public sidewalks, parks and trails covered in shit than admit that sometimes, reality trumps ideology.”
That about sums up the whole ideology, from poop to the BP oil disaster.
@Michael
I actually hated the idea at first, but can’t believe how well it works. My gut said that responsible people were already bagging and others would ignore the dispensers, but I think because they’re so visible, the social pressure to pack out your own business has made compliance very high.
Well worth the money.
The fact that We The People have collectively decided to “take responsibility” is precisely the point. Conservatives routinely try to deny The People this right based on an insane and extremely atomistic conception of individual responsibility, extreme lack of empathy, abject worship of the existing distribution of wealth and power, and narcissistic moral and behavioral snobbery.
Look, if all the “irresponsible” people disappeared tomorrow leaving only their shoes behind, the economy would go into free fall and somebody will still have to clean the toilets. Most conservatives routinely assign such tasks to “the little people”….well now they’d be it. I don’t believe it would go well.
On the other hand, if all the Galts disappeared, we’d manage somehow. Probably be better off if you ask me.
This is more interesting than I expected. Wow, from dog poop bags to all of conservative ideology. Maybe not as big a leap as it seems.
Even in the corporate media, skepticism about the inherent rationality of free markets (one of the faith-based ideologies you mention) is beginning to find voice in folks like Dan Ariely.
Conservative ideology works — if you are in the upper 1% economically speaking.
Even with huge corporate salaries, that’s peanuts compared to the fortunes that have been passing down generation to generation since the robber baron era.
Since conservatives like to go back to America’s roots, how about this gem:
“He who will not work, shall not eat.”
Captain John Smith of Jamestown
“the fortunes that have been passing down generation to generation”
They don’t exactly get paychecks like the rest of us. Most income comes from capital gains, dividends and inheritance. And our wingnut trolls go apeshit to even think that the sons and daughters of the most privileged Americans might have to pay capital gains, dividend or inheritance taxes. Better they pay no taxes at all, generation after generation after generation, as they are the “producers” whom our trolls worship and idolize so much.
I don’t own a dog, so I don’t carry poop bags with me. A couple times though I’ve been out walking in the parks and I’ve seen shit that someone didn’t bother to pick up, so I’ve grabbed a free bag and gotten it off the ground and into the trash. Just like I’ll pick up egregious trash and put it in the trashcan.
Just because you are a responsible dog owner doesn’t mean you won’t occasionally forget to bring bags with you. Having the bags available means your oversight doesn’t impact the environment as much as it could.
Having them available means that even if you are a complete jerk, someone who is responsible may come along behind you, see the crap you left and clean it up so the person after them doesn’t have to deal with it.
Rae, what part of “penny wise, pound foolish” is hard to grasp here? As The Duke points out @ 21, we should be concentrating on tax value, not just the cost or some dogmatic (no pun intended) ideological point.
This reminds me of the whole earmarks “debate”: Earmarks are less than 1% of the federal budget, but since it feeds the whole “government would have lots of money, if only they’d cut the waste” meme, it gets the airtime.
Goldy, sometimes the government should be involved and spend money. I believe in public libraries and public parks. I believe libraries should be comfortable (not posh) and same for parks.
Providing poop bags is the right thing to do. Nice try on parsing this finely, but conservatives actually think government should do things….such as parks…
Where we differ is on the role and extent of the parks. I don’t think we should make parks anything other than a outdoor place to recreate and walk, talk, hang out. Liberals want to add parks to celebrate goofy causes or fallen comrades. the element of political correctness stinks.
Let’s run this argument to its logical conclusion:
By providing fire departments, the government is reinforcing the idea that people can’t be responsible enough to not accidentally start fires.
By providing police departments, the government is reinforcing the idea that people can’t be responsible enough to not commit crimes.
We really need to do away with police and fire departments. All they do is encourage irresponsible behavior.
Let’s get rid of the government.
It’s fascinating to me that Rae sees the provision of the bags as some sort of personal insult that suggests that Rae is personally irresponsible. That’s an interesting bit of semantic content to extract from the presence of the poop-bag dispenser.
Others might look at that bag dispenser and instead think, “Look how foresightful and responsible I am! I have worked with my fellow citizens to establish a functioning and convenient utility, so if I accidentally run out of the bags I bring, or when Bowser has one of his poop fits, I don’t have to use my hands, or leave poop lying on the ground.” They might feel pity for those who live in communities who were too poor or too dysfunctional, or too jointly irresponsible to provide inexpensive facilities that make everyone’s life nicer, healthier and more pleasant.
Out here in the “no chip on our shoulder” world, Rae, we do all sorts of things to make our lives better, and don’t find it all insulting. We build roads, water systems, hospitals, parks to walk your dog in, why, you’d be surprised!
Rae,
they have no government it Somalia. You’d like it there.
Maybe Goldy can get the government to purchase the Fremont statue of Lenin.
@40: Agree. Just like Karl Marx said.
This is so true, and besides fecal coliform, there are other issues as well. For example, Toxoplasma gondii, whose natural host is cats, is a serious threat to wildlife health. Infection with this parasite is a factor in decline of populations of sea otters off the California coast. This parasite is also a threat to human health, expecially during pregnancy.
@39:
And don’t forget insurance companies! Or hospitals! I bet people wouldn’t be getting sick if there weren’t any hospitals!
Goldy seems to think its bad to have morals?
hmm..sounds very progressive to me.
Here is another solution Goldy, since you are so fucking in love with the local govt raking in dough.
How about a $1000 fine for your dog shitting and you dont pick it up. You think people wont start carrying bags then? Not only will people bring their own bags, but the govt will make money off the huge fines. Sounds like a win-win situation for both the fiscally conservative-types and the progressive-feed-the-govt-cow-types.
With that kind of steep fine, you can easily pay someone $15/hour to be on poop patrol.
The solution IS NOT to provide the lazy and irresponsible with an out by making everybody else pay for their delinguent behavior…the solution is that you make the punishment so fucking harsh, that it forces them to at least be a little responsible.
4. Rae spews:
@3 I guess that means you agree that the public is incapable of being responsible. How sad. Or that we can’t expect them to be.
you have wrapped up entire progressive mantra in one sentence. The govt needs to babysit us from cradle to grave, because we are incapable of taking care of ourselves.
Its the pussification of an entire society, and an affirment that we dont have to be responsible for our own behavior and life choices.
@47 That an interesting idea. As a cat owner, either $1000 or “dogs shot on sight” works for me.
@48 “Goldy seems to think its bad to have morals?
hmm..sounds very progressive to me.”
Darn it! As an immoral progressive, I find I personally can’t take offense to this statement.
@47
Sounds like a typical righty solution to me. People don’t need a subtle reminder, they need the government spying on them and cracking heads.
@51
so you are saying that you need to have your hand held by mommy govt in order to make it through life?
“subtle reminder”??? GOLDY JUST EXPLAINED TO YOU THAT THE SUBTLE REMINDER DOESTN WORK – WERENT YOU LISTENING?
I suppose you mommy govt to wipe your ass too.
@52
Um… The subtle reminder works just fine, that was the fucking point. Also see #’s 31 & 23. Works just fine in Gig Harbor too & saves the government money in the long run.
People usually switch to personal insults when they run out of real ammo, which seems to be the case here.
As a bicycle commuter and someone that grows a bunch of his own food, I rely on the government for a lot less than most.
So you really do want the government spying on us on every little thing, like wether or not you pickup after your dog.
Sorry, but it’s the righties that want the government to ban books, to check on what you’re smoking, to make sure that marriage contracts are only signed by a man and a woman, that wants to force women to carry pregnancies to term, that wants to ban day labor (already trying to do that in AZ).
I don’t care what you read or write. I don’t care what you smoke. I don’t care who you marry. I’m pro-choice. I don’t think the government needs to go snooping around making sure you clean up after your dog. Unless in endangers other people, I don’t think you should be ticketed if you roll though a stop at low speeds, jaywalk or make a turn without using your turn signals. I’m fine with day labor, as long as you really only need the labor for a day or two. I think prostitution should be illegal.
And I’m the nanny stater?
Oops.
Should read:
I think prostitution should be legal. Goldy’s edit function isn’t working.
Damn. Good summation.
I think this pretty much sums it up.
You get it, I get it, but will Rae, Puddy and Cyn get it?
@55. How are getting into the site? Are you coming in from horsesass.org?
I used to come to the site using a different URL that forwarded to HA, but it wasn’t perfect, so the edit wouldn’t work. Try posting from the horsesass.org url and it never seems to break.
Michael @53, quoting “The Riddle of Sreel” @52:
In the case of TRoS, it’s more like start with personal insults and head rapidly downhill from there. Kind of a BoyofLies-in-training.
Then this…
To the leftist fools in #5&6, it’s you leftist fools who look for the “utopia” but never find it. It’s you leftist fools who think the nanny state is great. What’s next, automatic butt wiping machines because you can’t reach around your fat ASSes? Give me a break. The government has to provide everything for you and your hand it out there looking for “where’s mine?” No wonder you two love the nanny state!
Nope you dope. That’s progressives for you. They tell you what to think and how to think.
Read the “great works” of
John Holdren
Cass Sunstein
Valerie Jarrett
then when called on it read their backtracks. That’s a progressive for ya!
BULLSHIT ALERT On The ASS
END OF BULLSHIT ALERT.
It’s your side who routinely tells everyone what they can and can not say, write and can not write, see and can not see. You progresssives want to shut up the opposition. Withess the James Rucker attacks on Glenn Beck last year. Rucker wants to shut Glenn up because he’s spilling the offensive plans of Rucker and company. The chalk board has Rucker all a twitter. It was called political correctness. Progressivism 101, it’s a Psych thing. Now it’s just flagrant personal attacks. Now they are using the religious attacks with social justice with that fool Jim Wallis. Or it’s corporate salvation. Does proud leftist’s father believe in corporate salvation? How many times is Jesus mentioned on Jim Wallis’ site if Wallis is such a Christian man? K tried to do this yesterday with Clint Didier. He disagreed with Clint so let’s shut him up.
What governmental right is there to provide poop bags? Sure the fecal coli is a problem. Sure no one wants to get crap on their shoes. Sure the smell is bad. But when you get an animal you have to care for the animal. Are you libtardos saying you can’t take care of your pets so let the nanny take care of it for me. We live near a church. The church had those poop bag dispensers. Funny they are no longer there. I always wondered what happened, but since we don’t attend the church I never asked why. Is poop bag dispensing found in the US Constitution? Sadly it ain’t there like abortion isn’t either.
Now, what has wealth and power have to do with scooping dog shit? Ohhh it’s another of your STUPID RANTS of the week! Up north, Puddy watches the rich peeps get out of their expensive cars walk their animals and whip out their poop bags and scoop the poop. Puddy watches the Birkenstock fools driving their Prius and Volvos come unprepared and have to get some flat object to scoop the poop and flick it away or look around and try to escape their “load”. There are two parks up in Everett area we visit and the common folk seem more unprepared to scoop than the more affluent. Could be a political thing eh?
Heh.. Sheesh.. How about the desire of the people for its government to create and conduct policy that FREAKING DOES THE JOB?
All you right wingers want to do stuff that has been shown NOT TO WORK!
The right wingers in this thread totally confirm what we progressive leaning folks propound daily – you’re totally into reality denial!
Even over dog poop!
@61. What governmental right is there to provide poop bags?
By that argument we shouldn’t have public health of any sort, no center for Disease Control, no NASA, no FDIC, no labor laws, no environmental regulations, no social programs like Social Security or Medicaid, no science grants, no land use regulations.
Just the right to have a military and the courts.
Why do you keep trying to recreate Somalia? No really, why do you hate America?