If a statewide elected official were to humiliate a young female employee in front of her coworkers and supervisors by inappropriately touching her—twice—while lewdly remarking on her breasts, and ultimately leading to her resignation… you’d think that might generate a few headlines from a local press corps proven oh so sensitive on matters of perceived personal offense. But apparently, not if that elected official is a likable, grandfatherly type, like Commissioner of Public Lands Doug Sutherland.
The incident dates back almost three and a half years, and while hushed whispers have been making the rounds for nearly as long, it was not until March of 2008 that the allegation was substantiated through a public records request that produced a 62-page document detailing a number of eyewitness accounts. (The name of the victim is redacted throughout.) Yet even with this document in hand, multiple news organizations have declined to inform voters of an undisputed incident that portrays a shocking lapse of judgment on the part of Commissioner Sutherland, a management style disruptive to the operations of his agency, and a clear violation of his department’s anti-harassment policies, if not the law itself.
On January 15, 2005, a young, female employee, recently hired by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR), was introduced to Commissioner Sutherland at a state meeting in Pacific, WA. Following is a description of the initial encounter, as transcribed from the woman’s handwritten notes:
Jon introduces me to the commissioner. “Doug, this is [REDACTED], the new public use forester.”
I shake his hand. [REDACTED] great to meet you.”
We resume to positions in tight circle.
Commissioner reaches across circle (& Doug M.) w/ his hand & grabs my left shoulder. Feels it, then twists me around so that my back is facing him & he holds me w/ one hand & feels my back (open palmed) from my neck down to my waist, shoulders, etc. Says something about “just looking.”
I am incredulous & half-smiling w/lack of reaction & blush v. red.
Doug Mc. (I made eye contact wi/ him @ some point during the inappropriate touching) & he made a comment like “We hire them strong.” or “Strong back.”
When commissioner returned to his position in the circle he said “Could have felt… up front” or “could have felt the other side”
“Wouldn’t be right.”
No, it wouldn’t have been right for the then 68-year-old Sutherland to feel this young woman’s breasts, but then, in the unanimous opinion of those who witnessed his actions, it clearly wasn’t right for him to rub her neck, shoulder, back and waist either. And for those who might question the recall of a young woman who at times appears teetering on the edge of shock, her contemporaneous notes are not only corroborated by various eyewitnesses, but at times elaborated on in ways that make Sutherland’s behavior appear all the more more inexcusable.
For example, the “Doug M.” in the transcript above is Doug McClelland, a division head at DNR, and a longtime aide to Sutherland. In a January 18 memo, McClelland provides a similar description of that first encounter:
Doug said hi to all and when I got to introducing [REDACTED] he put his arm around her and rubbed the back of her jacket a few times. I said she is strong because it seemed uncomfortable in what he was doing. Doug said something like: “she has other nice parts too!” All heard it and [REDACTED] was obviously embarrassed.
McClelland provides additional details in handwritten notes that appear to have been taken during an oral interview:
Shook Jesse’s hand, then got to [REDACTED], instead of shaking hand he turned her slightly and ran his hand all over back.
I was uncomfortable, & made joke: “And she’s quite strong too.”
Doug turned her to front: “And she has some other great parts also.”
[REDACTED] was very embarrassed. Taken aback.
Sure, McClelland’s two accounts differ slightly, and “could have felt the other side” and “she has other nice parts too” are two entirely different phrases, but regardless of the discrepancies both he and the victim describe the same basic event: Sutherland grabbed the young woman, turned her around, rubbed her back, and then made a suggestive comment about her breasts. And McClelland’s added description of Sutherland turning the young woman first to the back, and then to the front, not only clarifies that McClelland understood the offending remark to be a reference to the woman’s breasts, it also presents a clear visual image of Sutherland physically manipulating the victim as if she were an object. And a sexual object at that.
Multiple accounts have Sutherland cordially shaking hands with everyone in the circle, while the victim was “singled out” according to McClelland, because she was a “bright, smiling female,” and the only woman in the small group. Indeed, even Sutherland confirms the victim’s account, writing in a postmortem Q&A:
“The incident, as [REDACTED] describes it, is essentially what happened. The disconnect is in how she felt and what my intent was.”
But if there was a “disconnect” it was purely Sutherland’s, as all the witnesses appeared uniformly shocked and appalled at the Commissioner’s inappropriate behavior. In his January 18 memo, McClelland describes a brief conversation with Jon Byerly, the young woman’s immediate supervisor:
At the next break I had a chance to let Jon know that his employee [REDACTED] was uncomfortable from her encounter with Doug S. and Jon said “I thought his actions were very unprofessional and couldn’t believe he had acted that way.” I agreed with Jon’s observation.
Later that evening, Byerly called the woman at home to express his shock and support. From her handwritten notes:
Very upset following my departure. Spoke to my friend(s) & family for support.
Jon called @ 7:15 pm.
He says that he is shocked by what occurred.
References strict standards that we must abide by when it comes to harassment, but that the commissioner answers to the public.
He says that he’s embarrassed.
And again from the victim’s notes (and later corroborated by McClelland), even Sutherland acknowledged at the time that his actions had caused the young woman distress:
When the commissioner resumed his “position” in the circle he looked at me & said “Oh look, I’ve embarrassed her.”
Embarrassed her, yes. And much, much more than that, for as the documents show, this incident (and those that followed) caused the young woman such distress, that it eventually led to her resignation a few weeks later… a cause and effect that once again, even Sutherland ultimately acknowledges:
“I’m sure this incident contributed to her feelings about leaving and I’m really sorry for that.”
At this point I imagine that there are some who might seek to dismiss Sutherland’s actions as little more than an overly-friendly massage and an off-color remark, and the victim’s resignation as an unfortunate overreaction. (Is that why our male dominated press corps seems so uninterested?) But I urge you to try to put yourselves in the shoes of a young woman in a new job, forced to endure a very public humiliation at the wandering hands of a man, 45 years her senior, who is not only her boss’s boss, but a prominent, statewide elected official. DNR has and enforces anti-harassment policies specifically designed to prevent incidents like this and the hostile work environment it obviously created.
I also urge you to consider that while the facts in this case are clearly established, a typed transcript alone cannot possibly convey the full emotional impact of the events therein. For example, while the young woman clearly notes the waves of anger washing over her just minutes after the incident, her clipped phrasing contains little of the emotion she attempts to describe.
Doug Mc. said “He oftentimes says the wrong thing.”
I said “That was not okay. That was not right.”
[…] I was very upset as I replayed the moment; (the commissioner’s action, & comment) in my head — w/ anger coming in waves. Realizing that what had just occurred was NOT right.
At one point wiped away tears.
Closed my eyes. Talked myself out of becoming more upset.
The added emphasis in her handwritten notes is much more revealing, but even that doesn’t do justice to the pain and confusion that ultimately led to her resignation just a few weeks later.
And compounding the injury was the insensitive manner in which the woman’s supervisor, Jon Byerly attempted to excuse Sutherland’s actions just minutes after the encounter. Indeed, the following transcript could be used in sexual harassment training sessions everywhere as a textbook example of exactly how not to deal with a sexual harassment complaint.
Jon came to “sit down next to his little lady.” He sat one seat away to my left. Chris M. still sitting to my right.
Before Jon said anything else he motioned to his shirt at the top of the neck.
I did not know what he was referencing & asked “What?”
He made the motion again & I said “My button?” and he said “Your button.”
I was shocked. Again blushed as I buttoned up the top button (not the neck snap) on my uniform. I was wearing my uniform shirt, loose gray slacks, tank beneath my uniform & a fleece long-sleeve zip up over top, along w/ a skarf around my neck. My shirt was not low & did not show excessive decolletage. I had buttened my shirt up to the same button for the previous 8 days of work & did not in an way feel as if my dress was inappropriate.
Jon then leaned over close & said “I want you to know that I noticed (that action/comment?) that occurred.”
I was taken aback about the shirt button & did not respond except to say “That was not right.”
Jon proceeded to lean very close in once again & tell me that the commissioner has a reputation of just being a regular guy & that he does not think before he speaks.”
I looked at Jon & said “There is no excuse.”
Jon said “I’m not trying to make an excuse for him”
I said “That was very inappropriate & very, very, bad.”
I began to get visibly upset but no tears but conveyed the seriousness of the situation.
Jon Stood up & said “We need to eat or we will insult them.”
Oh Jesus. I’m guessing had Byerly first consulted Human Resources before attempting to calm the woman, blame the victim would not have been their preferred response. And according to the notes from McClelland’s oral interview, he too felt Byerly’s incredibly ham-fisted and insensitive counseling was totally inappropriate.
Jon came up and told me he had spoke to [REDACTED] and used it as a teachable moment to button her shirt up.
[I] told him that wasn’t appropriate.
In [my] opinion, she was dressed professionally.
Five days later, the victim was “temporarily assigned” a new supervisor.
Imagine you are a young woman, excited to embark on your chosen career, only days on the job at DNR. Imagine you are surrounded by peers and supervisors at your first statewide meeting, about to be introduced to the Commissioner of Public Lands, a statewide elected official. And now imagine the 68-year-old Sutherland spins you around, fondles you, and dismisses you with a sexually suggestive comment… only to have your immediate supervisor imply that you somehow brought the harassment upon yourself. How could your day get any worse?
Jesse & I were standing near our “lunch seats” when the commissioner returned to that area, placed his right hand on the right side of my lower waist & ran his hand across my waist (would have been just above my belt) to the left side of my waist.
Oh. My. God.
He (Commissioner) asked if I would be working out of the Olympia office or the regional office. I told him that I would be focused in Elbe Hills, trying to get that off the ground.
I do not believe Jesse knew of this inappropriate touching.
I held onto my water bottle tightly in front of me & did not reach out to shake his hand.
The commissioner then said that he would like to come to Elbe to see our work & what we’ve been up to.
Doug McClelland flew across the room & began shaking the commissioner’s hand.
Flew across the room? Yeah, I bet he did.
Could Sutherland have been more clueless? Or was he really clueless at all? He’d already acknowledged that he’d “embarrassed her” with his first round of inappropriate touching; could he possibly have expected a second round would be any more welcome?
Jesse said “I notice things.” “And I notice you do too.”
Chris joined our stance but not our conversation somewhere in here.
I said something to the effect of “If you’re referencing what just happened that was not okay.”
I said “You can’t do that.” “It is 2005!” “You can’t touch my waist like that.”
Jesse said “He just touched your waist?”
I said “Yes.” Seething.
Jesse said “Hold on [REDACTED] we’ll talk about this later.” “Slow down.”
I was irate, esp. that it had occurred again.
Did she really misunderstand Sutherland’s intentions, as he contends, or were his intentions absolutely clear from the start? (Ironically, if Sutherland had any questions about what does or does not constitute sexual harassment, he could have always consulted his own daughter Karen, an employment and labor attorney who specializes in, you guessed it… sexual harassment suits.)
This was no minor incident, the victim’s complaint throwing DNR into a frenzy of damage control. Meetings were held, testimony taken, statements given, memos written, supervisors reassigned, counseling given, and reminders on appropriate workplace behavior sent department wide. According to notes from a January 24 meeting, it was determined that the incident was a violation of DNR policy, that disciplinary action was warranted, and that it was in fact sexual harassment… but that due to the fact that it was “isolated,” “not hostile,” and involved no “quid pro quo,” it did not rise to the level of “illegal” sexual harassment.
Well, maybe. I discussed the case with a former county prosecutor who insisted that had their executive been involved in an incident like this, they would have settled in a heartbeat rather than risk going to trial. Whatever. The victim never filed suit, so we’ll never know.
What we do know is that the shockingly inappropriate behavior of Commissioner Sutherland led directly to the resignation of a young female employee, and the disruption and distraction of a number of managers who otherwise might have carried out the actual business of DNR… you know, trivial things like preventing timber companies from clearcutting unstable slopes.
We also know that while Sutherland ultimately apologized to his victim, he was never subjected to the sort of disciplinary action a lower level manager would surely have faced for similar misconduct. What kind of discipline might Sutherland have expected had he not been the Commissioner himself?
Well, as it so happens a public record exists of a contemporaneous incident involving a DNR manager and a female subordinate:
On February 7, 2005, Appellant sent [COMPLAINANT] a joke to her work e-mail. The joke was a fake advertisement for a pill called “Fukitol,” which in part stated, “When life just blows … Fukitol!” The subject line of the e-mail read, “I think I already overdosed.” At the time, [COMPLAINANT] was undergoing therapy to alleviate stress she was experiencing at work, and she perceived the joke as an attempt by Appellant to make fun of her stress and communicate to her that that he could get away with whatever he wanted. The [COMPLAINANT] also found the joke “menacing,” and she forwarded a copy of the e-mail to Ms. Dzimble.
Although DNR ultimately concluded that the manager had not intended to create a hostile work environment, that was the result of his actions nonetheless, and disciplined him by temporarily reducing his salary two steps for a period of two months. The manager challenged the penalty, but the Washington Personnel Appeals Board rejected his appeal, concluding amongst other things:
… the issue here is not Appellant’s intent was when he sent [COMPLAINANT] the e-mail, but what impact the e-mail had on [COMPLAINANT] when she received it…
… Appellant’s conduct violated Respondent’s Harassment Prevention policy by creating an offensive and intimidating work environment…
… As a supervisor, Appellant is held to a higher standard of professionalism, accountability and judgment.
A higher standard, apparently, than the Commissioner himself.
If this was the penalty for emailing an offensive joke, just imagine the disciplinary action had this DNR manager inappropriately touched his subordinate while making a sexually suggestive comment. Well, you’ll have to imagine it, as Sutherland was subjected to no disciplinary action at all for just such an offense.
Then again, we wouldn’t expect the department he runs to be able to discipline Sutherland. No, as the victim’s supervisor Jon Byerly appropriately put it: “The Commissioner answers to the public.“ But you know, only if the public learns about the incident.
Which brings us back to my lede, and my utter surprise at the incomprehensible decision of multiple news organizations to refuse to run with what is clearly a compelling and relevant story. With all the petty reporting on ads and polls and fundraising that has dominated political coverage of late, why would a reporter or editor sit on such an explosive story for over four months?
Is it just another one of those ethically challenged “he said/she said” stories? No, it’s a “he said, he said, he said, she said story…” and they all said the same damn thing!
Could Sutherland’s actions reasonably be interpreted as professional, appropriate or excusable? The victim didn’t think so. Nor did her supervisor. Nor his. These aren’t mere allegations; HR made a determination of sexual harassment based on undisputed facts.
Is sexual harassment itself an illegitimate subject to be raised in a contest for Commissioner of Public Lands? The press had no qualms about reporting on sexual harassment allegations against Gov. Mike Lowry and Sen. Brock Adams… allegations that generated hundreds of headlines and ultimately drove both men from office. More recently, I didn’t see the news media holding back their coverage of state Rep. Jim Dunn, who was stripped of his committee assignments after making a single “inappropriate” remark to a woman at a legislative function.
“We want to have zero tolerance for our members for inappropriate comments,” said House Republican leader Richard DeBolt.
So we have zero tolerance for the indiscretions of a two-bit, part-time legislator, but the inappropriate behavior of a likable, grandfatherly, statewide elected official we just hush up?
Or are our media gatekeepers concerned that the story is somehow tainted because it was being shopped around by individuals who would like to see Sutherland defeated? (For the record, I received my copy of the documents from the same source the other news organizations received theirs.) No doubt the person who requested these public records is at least as partisan as I am… but that doesn’t make the facts of this story any less true.
Whatever his intent, Doug Sutherland sexually harassed a young female employee, creating a work environment so hostile that she quit a few weeks later. That is a fact. And it is a fact that voters have the right to know.
I want everyone who read the above blog to remember that Goldy remained silent when Democratic Seattle City Councilman Richard McIver was arrested for beating his wife.
Let that sink in. He remained silent.
1. So? That was way public already. Plus, Sutherland’s currently campaigning for an upcoming election. McIver was not.
Well, that was disgusting.
Dear Mr. Troll:
As I remember, there is a little difference between an “arrest” and this case.
Got that?
Mike Lowry had to leave office over something that might or might not have happened, right?
But this DID happen, and now Sutherland has to go! Nice work Goldy.
@2
Wes, while I don’t think you have the spine to challenge Goldy, let me ask you a question anyway. Do you think that if Sutherland was a Democrat, Goldy still would have written the above article, or do you think he would have remained silent?
I KNOW he would have remained silent.
Hey, Goldy, if I can get you the evidence regarding Brian Baird’s harassment of a staffer (and possibly more than one) some years ago — and of Jay Inslee firmly “advising” the young lady to withdraw her complaint “in the best interests of the party and her career,” would you post that, too?
Don’t feed the trolls; it’s an effort to distract.
The facts in this post are well documented by public records and multiple testimonies; Sutherland himself admits to it.
The question here is whether voters have the right to know and judge Sutherland’s behavior for themselves?
Notice how quickly the right wing turds try to deflect by alleging (right or wrong) that Dems have been involved in inappropriate conduct. So what this means is that if Troll and Fake Mark (who is ashamed of Bush) were to have their daughters or wives felt up, it would be okay with them because after all, others have done it.
It’s SO telling that the right wing cowards won’t simply say their guy was wrong. It’s impossible for these right wing idiots to even remember what it was like to be a real human being so they actually condone this conduct because it was done by a republican.
This is all you need to know about the “GOP – grand old perverts” to know you should vote Democratic.
By the way I apologize for the mental picture of Troll or Fake Mark (who is ashamed of Bush) having female relatives with boobs. I know it is a terrible thought to imagine these inbred fools’ women. They must be terribly ugly sluts but it was for educational purposes.
Slightly off topic, but nonetheless related:
I recently finished watching season one of Mad Men, a show about Madison Ave. advertisers in the 1960’s. I found it so interesting because it is a peek into the “family values” world that Republicans would like so much to return our society to. This is a world where women could be a wife or a working woman, but not both. Men treat women in the workplace like their personal dating pool and the women tolerate it because their continued existence at the firm is directly dependent upon the favor of the men working around them.
Sutherland’s bad behavior is typical of the era before sexual harassment laws and he needs to leave office for this. His actions combined with his high status set a bad example for those who work with him and encourages subordinates to behave in the same fashion.
@ 8
The question, Goldy, is to your motives.
Are you against harassment in general?
Should ALL harassers be punished?
Or are you simply trying to smear Republicans and publicizing the alleged harassment is only a means to an end?
@6 Really? You KNOW this? Do you have any experience with Goldy’s views towards sexual violence, or are you just pulling this opinion out of your ass? I actually have a different view, based on the experience of hearing Goldy criticizing a Democrat for a domestic violence arrest. He made it pretty clear to me that he has little tolerance of violence or disrespect by either party in an intimate or professional relationship.
So I think that no matter what party he (or she) belonged to, if undisputed reports of sexual harassment concerning someone who was a candidate for office came to light and the papers were not covering it, he would be blogging about it. Because he gets the scoop on the media, which I actually think is a bigger deal for Goldy than what letter follows the candidate’s name on the ballot.
Mark, can I ask you the same question? Do you think all harassers should be punished?
good job, goldy!
I just read the entire post and here’s my take on it. An old man from a different era likes to pat people on the back and comment on their strength. He probably does it with men, too, but we don’t hear about that. And the reality is, you can make ANYTHING sound inappropriate. A good writer with a creative mind and partisan motives could even make a handshake sound creepy and sexual …
“Then he took my hand into his, gazed into my eyes, and said he was very glad to meet me. His hand seemed to be unnaturally moist, and I immediately became very uncomfortable …”
lol, Troll, usually I read the whole post before I comment on it, even if I don’t read all the comments first. You actually posted twice before you finished reading the post?
Bad Troll! No biscuit for you!
You know, if he actually had done stuff like that to the other people in his employ, male and female both, don’t you think some of them would have mentioned that to her? An “He did that to me the first time he met me and alluded to my dick and balls.” from one of the guys would have gone a hell of a long way towards making her fell less singled out.
He touched her inappropriately and made inappropriate remarks. If he were a catholic priest, you’d all be asking for him to be defrocked and be in shock that he had been inappropriate to an adult woman.
Whew! That was a long one. Sutherland is a creep, and although I thought it was already clear that his competence in office is at best questionable, this indicates that he is not morally qualified to hold said office.
Another REPUBLICAN loser bites the dust.
Surreal Mark: didn’t you get the memo? You’re no longer a “Republican”.
You’re a G
rOPer.Goldy, I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, but be careful if you are trying to trying to equate these incidents. The press shouldn’t have had any qualms in the Brock Adams case. They were serious allegations. I personally know one of Adams’ victims. She is a serious person and not to be doubted. Drugging someone and molesting them in their sleep is a very big deal and that kind of allegation is not brought lightly. And while I don’t mean to diminish the Sutherland thing, it is qualitatively different than the Adams case. Just my gut reaction from the description you provide here. That being said yes, it is shameful that the press is not pressing forward in the Sutherland case. Because harassment is harassment. On that point I agree.
I only mention this because when I see you write “the press had no qualms” it seems to imply that some sort of injustice of coverage in the other cases. But I trust this is not what you mean to imply.
@15: It was Doug McClelland and not Sutherland who made the comment about “hiring them strong,” out of embarrassment for Sutherland and the situation.
Your comment about partisan motives is ridiculous. Everyone should notice that through the comments of the trolls on HA runs a recurring theme of depravity and stunted social/personal development.
Somehow this seems in keeping with he impression one gets from the series the Times is doing that portrays the DNR under Sutherland as a good old boys’ club protecting the interests of the lumber barons more than anything else.
It would appear there are a number of reasons why Sutherland should be replaced. If this latest revelation helps make that happen, so much the better. Scant consolation for this victim of harassment. There are probably others. Anyone who behaves this way in a group has likely done it before.
Sutherland:
1. Sexual harassment
2. Losing the state millions of dollars due to sweetheart deals with Weyerhauser that allows clearcutting in places that damage roads and cost us – the taxpayer millions.
3. Has to go!
Goldy,
Fantastic reporting. This is the job that the media is supposed to be doing, but isn’t.
As for this behavior, if it was a Democrat doing this (and there was proof), I would be equally outraged.
Gordon @20,
Point well taken regarding Adams, and I don’t mean to suggest equivalency. That’s why I focused the incident involving Rep. Dunn, whose comment was reportedly more offensive, but who did not engage in any inappropriate touching.
I’m just trying to dispel any notion that sexual harassment is somehow off topic in the public lands race.
SUE THE BASTARD AND WIN ABOUT $200k.
maybe reporters sat on the story so that the 3 year statute of limitations from the date of the employee’s constructive discharge occurred would run out.
Don’t worry trolls…St. Dino (the sore-loser) will get rid of all the sexual harassment regs, along with all taxes, land use regs, white collar crime statutes and institute prayer in public schools…oh wait…there won’t BE any public schools.
Nevermind.
Oh yeah…and invade Oklahoma to get the Sonics back.
@6
Wes, while I don’t think you have the spine to challenge Goldy, let me ask you a question anyway.
You don’t even have the spine to reveal who you are.
Wow.
I feel so sorry for the victim, especially the part where she is told to button up. Right when she needed someone in her corner, it is made very clear that no one will defend her.
I’m sorry she didn’t sue. It would have been interesting to ask that aid in a deposition whether he had ever run interference for his boss’s inappropriate touching before. He moved so fast.
The second round of touching dispells all doubt: Sutherland guy not only is a harasser, he didn’t get the first time that what he did is wrong. Classic serial abuser behavior.
Very excellent article. It also reminded me I needed to make a campaign contribution to Peter Goldmark.
Note to Troll and company. Your inane attempts to hijack the dialog annoy me. Annoy me so much I make campaign contributions to deserving Dems. I can afford the money and I know it is going to a good cause. Keep up the good work.
Ivan, Mike Lowry not only was prevented from running for reelection as a result of lessor actions, he paid a huge settlement from his personal savings. His actions did take place and he paid a heavy price.
In this case Sutherland has not been sued nor has the agency. How pathetic is it that solid folks like Doug McClelland must clean up after a director and middle manager who just don’t understand how to exist in the post stone age.
And as for the press, who draws the squiggly line between what will and will not be spoken of or written of?
This is news and while the employee has her reasons for not going public and gaining a huge pile of cash, I might add, the media does a huge disservice to agency work environments across this state when it fails to cover such well documented events.
I just do not understand how the local press lives with this decision.
@28 “Oh yeah…and invade Oklahoma to get the Sonics back.”
Some shock and awe for those swiftboating liars from OKC? That one has some appeal for this Sonics fan. Any collateral damage would be unacceptable so it would seem a no go at this point. However, if the Sooners whup the Huskies then I might reconsider.
32 and the rest of the “whose-ox-is-is-getting-gored” subthread:
It’s worth noting, with some slight irony, what when Lowrey was under fire just about the only public figure who came to his defense was John Carlson.
That was, of course, then. I have no idea whether he’d do the same thing in our current atmosphere of “the-political-end-justifies-any-means”.
I see that the right wing turds run from any question here that would force them to even think about facts rather than cheering for the “GOP.”
And the Fake Mark is ashamed of George Bush – note in all the times I’ve said that he’s never corrected me once so we can only assume he admits it.
As this thread is already going far from its original point, I think a recap of the basic premise of this thread is in order.
Ok, we have the basics. Any thoughts on how to get the word out (other than this blog)? Unfortunately, the young lady in question chose to resign and not press the legal issues. I’m no lawyer, but I don’t see what else can be done, aside from a few bucks to Mr. Goldmark.
Which can be done here
But it would be okay if he blew a load on her
dress? And then deny it.
Mark:
I see that you’re the first of the Republican Damage Control squad, looking to distract from the premise of the thread.
I won’t bother asking what your post has to do with the DNR Commissioner race, as we both know the answer.
Nothing whatsoever.
Sutherland is an idiot and a good old boy. This should be in the mainstream media. Sutherland is an ass and this should be made an issue by his opponents. He likely was not sued if it was a one time incident.
It is different from the Lowrey accusations because in the Lowrey case there were multiple incidents in the complaint. Lowrey chose not to run for reelection, served his full term. He lost support from his inside circle.
Goldy is a hypocrit. Sexually innapropriate behavior at the work place is unprofessional and disgusting regardless of party affiliation, but Goldy sees no harm in Baird, Clinton, or other D’s who cover up the acts of an asshole. As long as your a D you do no wrong in Goldy’s world. That is why he is an unemployed dumbass.
But even a dumbass has his shining moment and Sutherland definately should have his “lack of judgment” brought before the public.
Most Republicans are pedophiles and trolls are all OK with it. So certainly, Sutherland harrassing an adult female is no biggy to them. He’s a Republican so, hey, it’s OK.
No wonder we never hear them talking about family values anymore. It only serves to remind the electorate of the moral decay and decadence that is now part of the Republican brand.
I want to talk about that blue dress instead.
Thanks for the good reporting Goldy. I hope folks read the actual public disclosure documents you posted. The women’s own version in her handwriting is shocking and heartbreaking.
As you point out, even DNR’s own policies says folks at the top are suppose to be held to higher standards of conduct. Sutherland may have apologized to the victum but how about an explanation to the citizen’s of our state?
Doug Sutherland has been at the helm of DNR for 8 years, carrying the timber industry’s water. Time for a change indeed.
Between this gortesque sexual harrasment episode and the Seattle Times expose of his role in last winter’s landslides—what more do voters need to know?
Kudos for daylighting this.
Realitycheck:
First, you start with the position that Mr. Sutherland is an ass, and that this should be made an issue by his opponents.
Then you rail against Goldy for doing just that.
Are you somehow of the perception that this isn’t a liberal political blog? It’s Faux News that claims to be “fair and balanced” while attacking one side and not the other.
There are any number of conservative blogs. Most that I know of don’t even let liberals post, and they don’t routinely go after Republicans, unless they embarrass the party.
So, you’re thinking that it’s only ok for us to go after Republicans if we first spew the Republican talking points about Democrats, but the right wing blogs can attack Democrats however they wish.
Ok, Clinton should have kept his zipper in the full and upright position, and Lowrey was a cad who left office in disgrace.
Geez, folks. You’ve got a current Republican office holder that sexually harasses young female employees, and all you can come up with are allegations against folks that haven’t held public office in years?
Weak. Really, really weak.
So, I’ll recount for the Republicans.
Sutherland. Current Republican office holder. Sexually harasses young female employees.
Goldmark. Democratic challenger. No claims that he harasses anyone except perhaps current Republican office holders.
Lowry. Washed up ex-Governor. Because of sexual impropriety, was encouraged by Democratic Party not to run for reelection.
Clinton. Former President, not running for any office. Had inappropriate, but consensual sexual relationship with an intern.
Happy now?
Realitycheck @ 39
“Goldy is a hypocrit.”
No he’s not. You, apparently, don’t understand the concept of hypocrisy.
Goldy is partisan. He freely admits it, and writes on topics that fit his partisan agenda. That is not hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is saying you are “fair and balanced” (i.e. non-partisan) and then writing as a partisan.
If you want non-partiasan, “fair-n-balanced” coverage of sexual harassment cases, don’t got to a liberal blog, dumbass! Go to the mainstream med…. Oh. Wait…nevermind.
I know most of you guys are a bunch of geeks and wonks, but even you must know that THE FEMALE BACK IS NOT A SEXUAL ORGAN!
Hey, that Goldmark name sounds familiar. Is he related to that other Goldmark dude who was killed, along with his family, by that insane dude in the CD because the insane dude thought he was Jewish, but he wasn’t?
41 “I want to talk about that blue dress instead.”
It doesn’t go with your eyes, and it makes you look fat.
Troll,
“even you must know that THE FEMALE BACK IS NOT A SEXUAL ORGAN!”
That’s pretty fucking funny.
This retarded comment suggests to me that you are…shall we say, lacking, in sexual experiences.
Or perhaps you lost your testicles at a young age?
@45
Wow, that’s a dumb comment, but not quite as dumb as this one.
@39
I really think you need to take refresher course on what constitutes ‘hypocrisy’. In order for Goldy to be a hypocrite, he would have to actively defend actions like Sutherland’s when taken by someone else. Good luck finding that…
Why didn’t Doug Sutherland simply take an honorable retirement? He is 71 this year, and has served in a number of positions capably. Well, capably enough, before deducting major points for personal misconduct and any policy differences that a given analyst may have. Sutherland should have KNOWN that something like this was going to come out, especially where his staff supported the woman’s version of events, and where Sutherland basically didn’t dispute them.
This time around, Sutherland actually has a QUALIFIED OPPONENT. Mike Lowry was a formidable opponent in 2000, but his own sexual harassment issues were fatal to his candidacy. As for Mike Cooper, he was okay as a challenger, but had to appeal to voters on policy and partisan differences with Sutherland. Cooper’s resume’ was less substantial than Sutherland’s.
Peter Goldmark, the challenger this year, has extremely relevant educational (a Ph.D. in biology, no less) and professional (commercial agriculture business and science research) qualifications, which are very relevant to this position, and should outweigh Sutherland’s 16 or more years of public sector executive experience (Tacoma Mayor, Pierce County Executive, and 8 years incumbency). And Goldmark’s policy positions should be more acceptable to the electorate as well.
Why in the hell isn’t the regular news media covering this story?
Were Sutherland a Dem, maybe Goldy would have remained silent about this.
So what?
Goldy has never claimed to be anything other than partisan. Our local print empires, on the other hand, will only let go of their beloved industry awards long enough to pat themselves “on the back” for their supposed lack of bias.
Sure this post serves to elevate the story about Sutherland and draw some attention to it in an election year. If it gets enough attention it might even do the Republican (aka GOP, aka “Bipartisan”) Commissioner some damage and help get a Democrat elected.
But more importantly it strongly suggests that the political impartiality of our local major media is a fucking lie. It is a lie they tell to us in every single issue and in every single broadcast. They are partisan. And they do work a political agenda. They lie when they claim otherwise. They’ve had this story sitting in front of them now, and they’ve decided to keep it from the voters in order to protect an elected official they prefer. That’s not the job they claim they do. But it’s exactly what they do all the time.
If Goldy is demonstrating any hypocrisy here, it would be in not calling out KIRO and the rest of the broadcast media for doing the exact same thing as the Times and the PI. None of them have any business making decisions about what news is “good for us” and what isn’t. Not if their decisions are politically driven. And not if their going to claim to be “above” politics.
Lee @ 48
I think Peter Goldmark is related to the family that got murdered 20 some-odd years ago in Seattle. And I believe they are both related to a fellow named Goldmark who was a state representative from Okanogan County (where Peter is also from, I believe), who sued someone in a famous libel case about 45 years ago. The late Judge William Dwyer represented that Goldmark fellow 45 years ago, and I think Dwyer wrote a book about the case.
So Troll @ 45 wasn’t “dumb”. But from the tone of his comment, he did appear trying to be ignorant and somewhat prejudiced. However, it is true that the Goldmark family was murdered in Seattle by some anti-Semitic nutcase(s), who mistakenly thought they were Jewish, and had apparently singled them out due to their relationship to the Goldmark fellow from the 1960’s libel case.
@51
I was referring to the first part of his comment, not the second.
I know about the Goldmark story.
I believe Charles Goldmark, who was murdered with his family, would have been Peter Goldmark’s brother. I assume the John Goldmark who sued for libel was also Peter’s father.
Interestingly, while Wikipedia does have an entry for Peter Goldmark, they don’t have any entries for his brother or father. However, Wikipedia does have an entry for the murderer David Lewis Rice, who killed Charles Goldmark and his family:
“David Lewis Rice (born 1958) is a follower of the Christian Identity movement who, on Christmas Eve 1985, forced his way into the Seattle home of civil rights attorney Charles Goldmark with a toy pistol and stabbed Goldmark, his wife, and two children to death. Rice, a member of the Duck Club, a right wing extremist organization, erroneously believed the family was Jewish and Communist, and saw the crime as part of a broader religious war between American Christianity and Soviet atheism. Goldmark and his family had been active in progressive politics in Washington for years, and his parents had won a highly publicized libel suit in 1964 as part of an effort to refute accusations of past membership in the Communist Party. When confessing to the crimes, Rice called Goldmark the “top Jew” and “top Communist” in the state.
Rice was convicted in 1986 of aggravated murder for the four deaths and was sentenced to death, but the conviction was later overturned on the grounds of an incompetent defense. A sticking point of Rice’s case throughout the trial process was the psychotic symptoms that he sometimes displayed, and his attorney’s lack of emphasis on them. In 1998, he finally pleaded guilty to the crimes in exchange for avoiding the death penalty. He remains in prison serving out a life sentence.
The Goldmark Murders remain one of the most notorious anti-Semitic hate crimes in recent memory in the United States, even though the victims were not actually Jewish. It also remains a cause celebre of capital punishment proponents, since Rice avoided death based only on the ineptitude of his attorney’s work at trial.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lewis_Rice
Wow, Lee. I just read that post from Troll. I hadn’t thought it possible for my opinion of Troll to get any lower, but here is one case where he(?) managed to prove me wrong.
But just to make sure that we don’t let the trolls get us off-topic, I should recap once more:
Doug Sutherland. Current Republican Commissioner of Public Lands. Sexually harasses young female employees. Favored by
WeyerhaeuserSeattle Times and the BIAW.Peter Goldmark. Democratic challenger. No claims that he harasses anyone except perhaps current Republican DNR Commissioners.
Mr. Goldmark’s website is here.
Goldy is a hypocrite in this case because this type of behavior is unacceptable from any office holder.
Partisan…so Goldy would look the other way when a D takes a bribe? It is only bad when republicans do a bad act?
@44, Darryl…Partisan means only the other side is bad? Most people try to be fair and consistent with their criticism, all except partisan dumbasses like you and Goldy.
You are so blind you don’t see how retarded you are. You keep me laughing…go partisans!
Excuse me, “realitycheck”, but where, exactly, has Goldy ever indicated that sexual harassment is acceptable from Democrats?
In what forum, and in what manner has he ever defended sexual harassment from anyone?
Yet, I do not see you railing against the many Republican and right-wing blogs that are routinely silent (or even defensive) about the Republicans that have performed arguably treasonous acts against the United States.
So, while I do not think the word “hypocrisy” applies to Goldy, it does seem to apply to you.
@55
Goldy is a hypocrite in this case because this type of behavior is unacceptable from any office holder.
Please post a link to where he’s defended it.
Partisan…so Goldy would look the other way when a D takes a bribe? It is only bad when republicans do a bad act?
Again, link to it. When has Goldy made excuses for a Dem while criticizing a Rep for a similar act?
Goldy focuses on Republican corruption. This makes him a partisan. It does not make him a hypocrite. Not understanding all of this, however, makes you a dumbass.
Realitycheck,
“Goldy is a hypocrite in this case because this type of behavior is unacceptable from any office holder.”
WTF???? It IS unacceptable behavior, but that simple fact does not make Goldy a hypocrite.
“Partisan…so Goldy would look the other way when a D takes a bribe? It is only bad when republicans do a bad act?”
Your question is irrelevant. Goldy has specifically stated that a purpose of this blog is to write in favor of liberal/progressive causes and write against Wingnuts.
Criticizing Goldy for not widening the scope of his writings is akin to walking into a video store and criticizing them for their lousy selection of BOOKS. (Wrong store, dude!)
“Partisan means only the other side is bad? “
Nope. Partisan mean taking up positions from a specified ideological/political orientation.
“Most people try to be fair and consistent with their criticism, all except partisan dumbasses like you and Goldy.”
I think you are mistakenly using the term “fair” when you mean “balanced” (as in presenting arguments/criticisms from all sides). Goldy has stated that his writings are selective, not balanced. He has been scrupulously open and consistent in that regard. By design.
If you were expecting right wing writings, you came to the wrong “store.” We don’t sell that shit here.
54 I wouldn’t exactly agree that the current series of articles the Times is doing could be construed as “favorable” to Sutherland or his department.
When you stack it all up….the man’s record shows he’s incompetent and negligent and hampered by apparent conflicts of interest in fulfilling the duties of his office, and in addition he’s a dirty old man. Finally, conveniently enough, there’s another guy running for his office who’s eminently better qualified than Mr. Sutherland ever was, and whose life experience suggests a great deal of personal integrity and strength of character in the face of adversity.
If the voting public doesn’t see a golden opportunity here, something’s terribly wrong.
Artfart:
Your point is well taken, and indeed is part of the discussion.
The public doesn’t see a golden opportunity here, because the information isn’t getting to them.
Why not? Is it because an incompetent elected public official that sexually harasses young female employees isn’t news in an election year?
Or, could it be that the folks that get to decide what stories make it into the paper have decided that, while Doug Sutherland is an incompetent dirty old man, he’s their incompetent dirty old man.
As little as I like unSP, I really can’t get angry that they aren’t spending much effort on this. (An assumption on my part, as I haven’t checked.) Their silence says nothing.
But the Seattle Times claims to be an unbiased source of important local information. Their silence speaks volumes.
I know most of you guys are a bunch of geeks and wonks, but even you must know that THE FEMALE BACK IS NOT A SEXUAL ORGAN!
Ha ha ha. Another trool who doesn’t understand the modern working world. Dude, I would advise you (that is, if you actually have a job and don’t spend your days wanking in your parents’ basement) to go to your HR office and ask for the briefing materials on sexual harassment.
Here’s a hint: ‘Creating a hostile work environment’ can translate as ‘making other people uncomfortable’ which might have nothing to do with touching at all, much less touching of SEXUAL ORGANS. Yes, you can be a sexual harasser just by making jokes, or posting inappropriate pictures, or sending dumbassed emails. I am surprised you do not know this, but perhaps you don’t work in an environment where professional behavior is expected of you.
And really, someone who claims to not know that groping someone’s back is not groping is indeed sexually retarded.
When this topic was first posted, I was about to post a comment to the effect that somebody would try to excuse his behavior as not having any sexual meaning. I was going to point out, in advance, that he didn’t rub the back of any of the male employees, or put his hand around their waist. If there was any doubt, his comment that there were “other parts” of the female employee to be appreciated left no doubt as to the sexual nature of his actions. The comments by the other fellow were an attempt to re-direct the conversation by pretending that Sutherland was talking about how strong she was, not her sexual features.
I decided not to post the comment, because I wanted to see who would rise to the bait.
“Troll” wins, by making a thoroughly predictable argument, without bothering to deal with the evidence which doesn’t fit his theory – he just ignores it.
Look, I’ve worked with older people from time-to-time, and sometimes it’s been a challenge to keep them from making comments which gets them into trouble. But most of the time it’s a situation of them making careless comments without sexual intent, not realizing how they could be misconstrued. But the description related here, which seems to have been confirmed from multiple witnesses, leaves little doubt that Sutherland’s actions were sexual harrassment. True, he was trying to “tred the line”, probably testing to see what her reaction was, but if he tried to stay on the right side of the line, he failed.
Now, Sutherland probably feels that since he didn’t plan to act upon these comments and pursue a relationship, then they weren’t prohibited conduct. But that just reveals how little Sutherland understands about how sexual harrassment in the workplace works. It’s not about sex as much as it is about power and diminishing the individual to a sexual object, and the affect that has on creating an unequal work environment.
In my office, we have lots of people from different cultures around the world. It’s difficult, at times, to explain to some of the men what is allowed, and what is not. My shorthand explanation: think of every woman in the office as the wife or daughter of the CEO, and treat them accordingly. It seems to work most of the time.
Wow, what a big long post. I’m guessing there’s a republican to blame somewhere.
Why not the same concern for the women that bill clinton harassed.
Oh yeah, this is a liberal blog, never speak bad of one of your own.
Projection, Psych 101. So anyway, too bad you are a pedophile, Steve. That’s probably a real downer for you.
Don’t you just hate it when someone projects and reveal things nobody really wants to know about them?
Steve, thanks for pointing me to check out projection. It’s amazing how your writings mimic that of the examples listed.
63 Uhhh…you’re a little late to the party, Marv.
@63 “I’m guessing there’s a republican to blame somewhere.” You got that right, troll.
“Why not the same concern for the women that bill clinton harassed.”
Oh, you mean a consensual blow job requires your deep concern? Hmm, that kind of thing probably does bother you. I bet I know why. I’ll also bet that it’s something you don’t like to talk about.
Unlike the spine of lee that buckled when I didn’t cower in fear at his threat. Like I said before Lee, it was stupid of you to threaten me, I’m glad you realized your mistake. It proves you’re not as stupid as you appear online.
54 etc John Barelli: you are correct about basic editorial orientation of Times. However, Times just ran excellent article on DNR permitting of Weyerhaeuser logging on steep slopes. Links are in the article cross-referenced above at “Clearcutting unstable slopes”. Hal Bernton has strong support and produced one of the best articles on the issue I’ve ever seen.
The book on the Goldmark trial by Judge Wm Dwyer is an excellent read. And, as I recall, there was a Jewish ancestor a couple of generations back. Interesting, but irrelevant detail…
@64 You’re so fucking clueless. No bother here. However, seeing as how your chain has been so obviously yanked, please continue making a complete witless fool of yourself.
Paula Jones, remember her. I never heard she gave clinton a consensual blowjob. Doesn’t matter, clinton knew he was going to lose the lawsuit and decided to settle. Moral to the story- pay the person off and it’s okay. Like having a gigantic carbon footprint and buying carbon offsets.
I’m not bothered to talk about blowjobs? I’ve always wondered, do guys give better blowjobs? If you don’t know, maybe daddy love could speak on this.
@67 In case you’re confused about this, you’re a spineless fascist ass.
I’ve got you jumping and answering every post of mine trying to defend yourself.
@70
I’ve always wondered, do guys give better blowjobs?
We’re well aware of how often you think about giving guys blowjobs, Marvin. No need to remind us again.
Still following me around replying to me?
Damn if you’re not replying to me even when I’m not talking to you.
Get over me Steve. Moveon. Stop replying to me. You can do it can’t you?
I was hoping one of you would answer.
@70 “I’ve always wondered, do guys give better blowjobs?”
If you were ever to get a blow job from a woman then you might be able to answer your own question.
Still replying to me?
@72 My, what a whiny little loser you are.
@77 “Still replying to me?”
As long as you’re willing to play the fool, why not?
Marvin Stamn:
What are you doing posting on this blog??
Aren’t you black??
Your kind is not allowed here. Apparently, it’s “a fact!”
Now, stop posting here.
LMAO!!! That dumbass Troll isn’t going show his silly REPUBLICAN ass around here anymore.
Troll spews:
A little bit of info for some of you out of state readers who don’t know all that much about Gregoire. In college she was president of a sorority that disallowed black people. That’s a fact.
And if you’re wondering why this blog is SO passionate about Gregoire …… No blacks have posting privileges on this blog. That also is a fact.
07/15/2008 at 7:25 am
http://www.horsesass.org/?p=5202#comment-793437
Go ahead calling me names, I don’t mind helping you feel better about yourself.
Must suck to be so obsessed with someone that you can’t stop yourself from replying.
Stop replying to me.
Are these official ha rules or are you working for headless lucy?
@75
I was hoping one of you would answer.
No matter how hard you try Marvin, none of us are going to pay you to suck our dicks. Just not gonna happen.
@84 “Stop replying to me.”
I think not. I think it’s better that I keep reminding you what a stoopid, America-hating fascist twit you are. And I’m sure that it’s obvious to everybody, libs and trolls alike, that it’s getting under your skin.
Sorry, Marvin.
Apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read.
Troll posted it is a FACT blacks cannot post here.
Sorry, I don’t make up the rules, nor do I follow them, but apparently Troll doesn’t like you and he doesn’t like Jews.
If I were to make up the rules I’d ban all liars. Which means virtually all conservatives would be banned from lying on this blog.
BTW, speaking of ‘blacks’ did you see that militant black bitch with her muslim husband on the cover of the New Yorker??
I had no idea that Michelle Obama was a militant black bitch with a huge ‘fro. I did get an email from a Republican that Barak HUSSEIN Obama attended radical muslim schools as a child.
So it all must be true because conservatives don’t lie. Right?
Lighten up Francis!
The old man was just having a little senile fun. Lay off the ole guy.
This isn’t about the Times editorial board.
This is about a decision on the part of their news division to suppress information about an elected official in order to protect that elected official.
We are all plenty well acquainted with the editorial board bent of the Seattle Times. And frankly I wouldn’t be surprised to see them printing editorials hailing the yummy flavor of Dino Rossi’s semen when he face fucks them all, possibly excluding Kate Riley for obvious reasons.
But these are decisions being made on the news side of the wall. These folks aren’t supposed to have political opinions. At least that’s what they claim. And of course, in order to protect their nominal political impartiality, they will never deign to engage in debate about their decision making process. Even when that decision making process is quite obviously a reflection of political bias.
I wouldn’t suggest that a decision by the Times newsroom is being directed by the Publisher. This is just pussy journalism. It just happens to be pussy journalism that reflects the stated political bias of Frank Blethen.
But the Times newsroom isn’t typically so squeamish. And if it seems that they reserve their squeamishness for instances that might damage the political fortunes of their publisher’s friends, I guess that just makes them obsequious pussies.
So I guess that proves I’m not a republican??
After all, the tolerant left say that republicans pay for black dick. At least that’s what steve projected upon us.
Wow, all from the mind of steve.
Don’t you just hate it when someone projects and reveal things nobody really cares to know about them?
Projection, Psych 101. So anyway, too bad you are an america-hating fascist twit, Steve. That’s probably a real downer for you.
Don’t you just hate it when someone projects and reveal things nobody really cares to know about them?
Okay, now your next order is to reply to me.
Jump steve, jump!
@91 “After all, the tolerant left say that republicans pay for black dick.”
Jon Ponder | Dec. 28, 2007
In July, Bob Allen, a Florida state legislator who is married and has a child, was arrested in a park restroom near Titusville for soliciting sex for money from an undercover cop.
The bust went down like this:
The undercover police officer gave evidence that Allen twice peered over the top of a toilet cubicle he was occupying, then entered the cubicle.
They discussed payment for oral sex, but Allen was concerned the park toilet was too public.
As Allen then indicated to the police officer to follow him outside to his car, he was arrested.
After his arrest, Allen resigned as a state chair for presidential campaign of John McCain but vowed not to give up his seat in the legislature.
Elected in 2000, Rep. Allen has voting record of a fervent rightwing ideologue:
Representative Allen had sponsored a failed bill in the Florida statehouse earlier this year, the Lewdness and Indecent Exposure Bill, designed to increase the penalties for committing “unnatural and lascivious acts or exposure or exhibition of sexual organs committed within specified distance of certain locations.”
I bet that, um, sucks for you, Marvin.
Marvin the Illegal Posting Black Guy wrote:
“Don’t you just hate it when someone projects and reveal things nobody really cares to know about them?
“
Yes, MS, every time you post on this blog we learn something about you we really just don’t give a damn about.
Now, stop posting here illegally.
According to the Troll this is the Augusta Golf Club circa 1989 of the blogosphere.
I read the message you wrote, #80. I thought you wrote the rules. Sorry.
If true, that must suck for him. How sick must someone be to not like me.
ALL liars? Who would be left to post?
Sorry, I don’t share your view of obama.
Damn, all I get is emails about helping out some rich nigerian.
I’m not going to call you liar. There are things you wrote that I disagree with but it doesn’t mean you’re lying, you probably believe them to the core of your soul.
Thanks steve for spending your time googling black dick.
I hope your wife doesn’t visit google and type in blac and k dick pops up because of autotype.
I want you to go to google and clear out the cache so your wife won’t find out your little secret. Jump steve, jump.
@96 I bet if I Googled “black dick”, Republican pervs would show up in, um, spades.
And I’m starting to learn a little about you.
You admitted the rules were written by the troll. Why are you trying to enforce them? Why do you have a problem with blacks?
@91
So I guess that proves I’m not a republican??
Actually, it proves you ARE a Republican. Don’t you watch the news?
@99 –heh
Keep replying steve. I like the fact I can make you do as I wish. The smarter someone is, the more they ignore trolls. The stupider they are, well steve, you’re winning that one. Keep replying my little puppet.
Nice word, spades. Apparently you don’t feel the need to project anymore, you are starting to feel more comfortable around here.
Jump steve, jump.
Why is there even a question of politics here?
Democrat-Republican-martian-whocares…..
He should be “resigned” and lose his pension.
For anyone to minimize the situation as “her misinterpretation” or “he had no sexual intent” really is pathetic.
For those so eager to say it’s no big deal. Please insert your daughter,wife,mother,sisters name in the redacted space….Then try again with the minimizing…
As to reporting.
Did any other news outlet report this?
@101
Marvin,
My you’re persistent. No matter how hard you try, though, Steve will not pay you to suck his dick.
@102
Did any other news outlet report this?
Not yet, but I’ve heard that some are rushing to cover it now…we’ll see if that’s accurate.
I’m getting what I want. I’m making him reply to me. I’m trolling. Back when I tried that with you you couldn’t be bothered. But damn, if this steve guy hasn’t bit on the hook.
Why is Richard Pope the only commenter here with any real content?
@105
I’m getting what I want. I’m making him reply to me.
That’s still a long way from being able to suck his dick for money Marvin. You’re going down a futile path.
I’m trolling. Back when I tried that with you you couldn’t be bothered.
That’s not how I remember it. Your original attempts to solicit money for oral sex acts led to some fantastic posts at Effin Unsound. I’m hurt that you don’t remember that…
But damn, if this steve guy hasn’t bit on the hook.
But you’ll never be biting on his hook, though, sorry. Try the local GOP headquarters near you.
@106
Why is Richard Pope the only commenter here with any real content?
Because it’s more fun to make fun of trolls…
Look here, Marvin, there’s no way I’m letting you suck my cock. I’m not interested, I’m not black, and this ain’t no park toilet. So I really don’t understand why you keep pursuing the matter.
Exactly what I’ve been saying. I’ve gotten what I want, his blind devotion to my replies. That’s a long way from sucking his dick, cause if anything, his following of my orders makes him a little bit of a bitch wouldn’t you agree.
Yeah, those old great posts. And for anyone that saw the pics… Of course all the faces were blurred but the white guy in the black socks is Lee. Go look.
No need to apologize on behalf of steve. His parents should have taught him manners to apologize for himself.
What did you think of steve’s little “spade” joke?
Keep replying. Keep telling me your inner most thoughts.
Jump steve, jump.
In case everyone forgot – Marvin Stamn is a convicted child molester – so keep that in mind when you watch him ramble on here about whatever. He’s a fine example of the wide-stance wing of the republican party.
@111 Get it through your little pointy head, Marvin, there’s no way I’m going to let you suck my dick. But please don’t despair, as I’m sure either I-Burn or Mr. Cynical are open to the idea of taking your money. On the other hand, as it’s black dick that you say you want, perhaps Puddy’s your man.
@112 I doubt that Marvin’s a toe-tapper, BBG. He comes off more as the “I’ll pay $20 to blow a black cop in a park toilet” type.
Keep replying.
Keep spending your time typing for me.
Jump steve, jump.
@115 Uh-huh. Yeah, sure, Marvin. Whatever. I’m still not going to let you suck my cock.
Seriously…… you can read this like the bible…. interpret it to mean whatever you want it to mean. How many of you who have slammed Mr. Sutherland on this particular issue actually know him, have worked with him, and have experienced his management style? I find it ironic that no one can reach this so called sexual harrassment victim… she didn’t press charges…. so whatever…if it was that bad… why? Mr. Sutherland admitted he handled the situation wrong. Funny it didn’t come to light until the election approaches. I think this is just a dirty campaign tactic on the Goldmark part…… just like trying to blame him for the worst storm on record (that no one had control over but GOD) and the ensuing damage. I can only pray that those who can think rational thoughts will weigh these sensitive issues and recognize that Commissioner Sutherland pulled the Department of Natural Resources out of a bottomless pit; improving not only the financial outlook, but the morale of the employees when he began managing the Department. My vote is still for Doug.
I informed I-Burn over on the “Enemy” thread that Marvin was over here offering to pay to suck some cock and neither one of them has been heard from since. I reckon they must have hooked up.
Oops, something seems to have gone wrong with the Marvin and I-Burn hookup. I-Burn’s now back on the “Enemy” thread, pissed as hell. My bet is that Marvin, um, stiffed him for the $20.
Yup, he stiffed him. What an ass you are, Marvin. You owe I-Burn $20 and he’s really pissed off about it.
sumthin2talkabout @ 117
“you can read this like the bible…. interpret it to mean whatever you want it to mean.”
No…this lacks much of the ambiguity found in many parts of the Bible. What part of the following do you not understand:
So…the State certainly found Mr. Sutherland’s behavior unambiguously inappropriate.
“How many of you who have slammed Mr. Sutherland on this particular issue actually know him, have worked with him, and have experienced his management style?”
I think the salient point is that a young, newly hired female DNR employee DID experience his “management style” and was mortified and ended up quitting over it. (And her discomfort was noted and shared by others around.)
Folks?
Please remember that the goal of our neocon trolls here is to prevent discussion of issues, and convince occasion visitors to this blog that nothing happens here but a bunch of “angry liberals” calling names.
Normally, I really don’t care that much when they succeed in highjacking a thread about transit in Seattle, or some King County office, or even what we should do about a semi-pro basketball team going to Oklahoma. It’s your city, and your problem.
But this is about a statewide election, and the current Republican office holder is not only incompetent, but an embarrassment to the State of Washington, while the challenger looks like he’d do a pretty good job.
Since this one effects me on two different fronts (DNR has a lot to say in the Real Estate biz, and it’s a statewide office) I’m wanting to keep the wingnuts from dragging us off topic.
So, once again, the recap:
Let’s not let these wannabes muddy the topic with their discussion of oral sex. If they want to talk about their fantasies, they should go to one of the various alternative sex internet sites.
No, sorry wannabes, I don’t have links, but I’d be happy to forward the contents of my spam filter to you.
yeah Darryl… ONE of over 1200 employees, and over 8 years of management hmmm, those aren’t good odds….
John @ 122,
Thanks.
Steve and Marvin Stamn…TAKE IT TO AN OPEN THREAD.
I’ll be deleting any more of your (even slightly) off-topic comments in this thread.
sumthin2talkabout
“ONE of over 1200 employees, and over 8 years of management hmmm, those aren’t good odds….”
Damn straight those aren’t good odds. No State employee should EVER be found to be sexually harassing those over whom they wield power.
(BTW: Doesn’t your argument work the same way for, say, a bank robber who has been caught for the first time? “But, Your Honor, I’ve been in banks over 4,000 times and have never been caught robbing one!”)
And I respect your wishes as well, Mr. Barelli.
hey darryl….when you are deemed perfect and have never made a mistake.. and admit it let me know… we’ll give you a “Goldmark” star…..
Goldy,
Thank you for covering this story. I was also forced to quit my state job to avoid harassment, threats and assault a few years ago.
I used to work for a state legislator.
A number of people have asked me for copies of my notes and other documents. But I won’t hand them out – not right now.
This is an election year and I do not want my experience to be recorded as some sort of a campaign stunt.
I don’t know how many women have been forced to quit jobs to avoid harassment and workplace violence. But, now, thanks to you, I know that there is at least one other woman who left her employer because supervisors were reluctant to help her.
I prefer to remain anon for now , you have my e-mail address.
sumthin2talkabout,
“when you are deemed perfect and have never made a mistake.. and admit it let me know… we’ll give you a “Goldmark” star…..”
What bullshit!
The issue is not about someone being perfect. The issue is about someone behaving in a way that violates basic principles of appropriate behavior between a supervisor and a subordinate.
Sutherland’s behaviors harmed the young woman (who quit her job over the incident) and all state citizens (through the time wasted in documenting and investigating his behavior).
John,
I love you, man, but even believing that trolls can accomplish anything in these comment threads is giving them far more credit than they deserve. Nothing that is said in these comment threads makes a difference in how this issue plays out politically. Whenever you or others leave intelligent comments, that has value to those who care about intelligent comments and build off of them, but that is not disturbed by the disturbed, so to speak.
Trolls are here for our entertainment – like a fishbowl of stupid and crazy. Sometimes feeding the fish just makes them more entertaining.
@130 “Trolls are here for”
I believe the same, Lee. However, at this time I prefer to respect the wishes of John and Darryl and so I’m dropping it. It was fun while it lasted.
@131
Me too. And I should be drinking a beer with Darryl in shortly over an hour, so I’m retiring from the thread.
And John, not sure if you’ve ever come to DL, but if so, I’ll buy a round for you. :)
Someone needs to go down to Pierce County Superior Court, and look up Doug Sutherland’s divorce case from his previous wife, Patricia. Case # 85-3-02930-4
Sutherland had three judgments against him. The first one was dated August 8, 1986, which was the same day the agreed divorce decree was entered. Judgments are common in an original divorce decree, since they are used to secure property divisions (like husband gets the house, wife gets judgment of X dollars to secure husband paying for her interest in the house).
However, two more judgments were entered against Doug Sutherland post-decree — one on October 17, 1988 and another on November 14, 1988. There is a good possibility these were for child support or alimony, since that is by far the most common reason money would be awarded in a court judgment AFTER people are divorced.
Sutherland’s ex-wife evidently had to go through HELL to collect her judgments — even though Sutherland was MAYOR of Tacoma (a position that he held from 1983 to 1992, before being elected Pierce County Executive).
The parties listed on the on-line summary include three garnishee defendants: City of Tacoma (where Sutherland worked as Mayor), Tacoma Tent Awning Co., Inc. (a business that Sutherland owned), Puget Sound National Bank, and Dean Witter Reynolds, Inc. (stock brokerage firm).
The local media — including the Seattle Times — considered it extremely relevant that a FORMER boyfriend (Ron Dotzauer) of Senator Maria Cantwell was delinquent in his child support and other obligations to his ex-wife. And Stefan Sharkansky thought that was even more relevant.
Certainly, if Doug Sutherland was refusing to pay his child support, and his former wife had to take him to court for a judgment, and repeatedly garnish him to collect the money, that should also be extremely relevant.
Especially in light of the information that Goldy has just publicized, which shows that Sutherland continues to have a very improper attitude towards women …
Pierce County Superior Court Civil Case 85-3-02930-4
Case Title: DOUGLASS B SUTHERLAND & M PATRICIA SUTHERLAND
Case Type: Dissolution (OLD)
Access: Public
Track Assignment: Non PCLR
Jury Size:
Estimated Trial Length:
Dept Judge:
Resolution: 08/06/1986 Parties Settled/AJ Pre-Trial
Completion: 08/06/1986 Judgment/Order/Decree Filed
Litigants
Name Type Status
SUTHERLAND, DOUGLASS B PRO SE Petitioner
TACOMA TENT AWNING CO INC PRO SE Garnishee Defendant
CITY OF TACOMA PRO SE Garnishee Defendant
PUGET SOUND NATIONAL BANK PRO SE Garnishee Defendant
DEAN WHITTER REYNOLDS INC PRO SE Garnishee Defendant
SUTHERLAND, M PATRICIA PRO SE Respondent
Filings
Filing Date Filing Access Pages Microfilm
10/02/2001 ARCHIVED RECORD Public 234
Proceedings
Date Calendar Outcome
No Case Schedule Items
Event Schedule Date
Judgments
Cause # Status Signed Effective Filed
88-9-06294-4 OPEN COMM PAUL M. BOYLE on 11/14/1988 11/14/1988
86-9-04117-7 SATISFIED as of 12/22/1988 WALDO F. STONE on 08/06/1986 08/06/1986
88-9-05780-1 SATISFIED as of 10/25/1988 COMM PAUL M. BOYLE on 10/17/1988 10/17/1988
http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/cfa.....-3-02930-4
@133 I’d suggest leaving the twenty-some-year-old divorce out of it, Richard. I understand the temptation, believe me. If only for the wife and kids, we should let it be. The harrassment story is another thing altogether. It is both recent and extremely relevant. This needs to be out there and kudos to Goldy for setting it in motion. Now let’s see if any media in this state goes with it.
Some anonymous trollop makes an accusation and Goldy dives in with both feet and high pitched voice in tow. It would be hilarious if the motive wasn’t so pathetically transparent.
Tell you what Goldy, if you’re going to spend that much time writing fiction, at least let your publisher (and reader’s) know it’s going to rival “war and peace” on the word count in advance.
My synopsis? Garbage in……Garbage out
i.e. The usual, predictable hit piece on Republican’s by the lead Donkey at HA.
Now, if he could only show the same resolve on finding gainful employment….
HAHAHA who am I kidding.
Steve @ 134
I think Doug Sutherland’s evident failure to pay his financial obligations to his former wife (quite probably for child support, but just about as bad if some other kind of obligation was involved) are extremely relevant. Sutherland was 51 years old (back in 1988), a successful business owner AND Mayor of our state’s second largest city at the time! Not only did his ex-wife have to get TWO judgments against him (not including the divorce decree, which may have only been a property division judgment), but she had to garnish at least four different sources of his income and assets to collect it.
Deadbeat dads just aren’t very popular overall. Some men (mostly non-custodial fathers who believe the system has treated them unfairly) sympathize with deadbeat dads. But among the general population as a whole, deadbeat dads just aren’t very popular.
Several court judgments concerning Sutherland’s financial irresponsibility towards his family — documented facts, as determined by a judge or court commissioner — could be more convincing and damaging than a sexual harassment case where nobody got sued and in which Sutherland will attempt to deny and minimize. And certainly they would corroborate Sutherland being a male chauvinist pig.
Richard @134
Perhaps you’re right, Richard. It does seem distasteful to me, considering the wife and kids and that decades have passed. But this is politics and I suppose this is what is needed to win these days. Geez, I grew up believing Dick Tuck represented dirty politics. Dirty tricks. I guess I was wrong. Always was, I suppose.
Regarding deadbeat dads not being very popular, my, times have certainly changed.
If there were any legs (or truth for that matter) to the story, the extreme leftist press in Seattlegrad would have been all over it like flies on a stench-ridden liberal on a crowded commuter bus.
Therefore, Goldy is once again pissing up a rope in the hopes of making his backwater blog site relevent…his approach being:
‘sling enough Horse manure against the wall and something is bound to stick. ‘
@133
Dang!
You know we all knew David Brame was a sleaze bag, but the local media backed him until he shot himself and his wife.
Some times you have to shout pretty loud to be heard. I doubt the media can cover this over now, thanks for posting that.
Lee:
I’ve only made it to DL once. I’m in Gig Harbor, and it’s a bit of a drive.
Unlike some of the topics covered here, this is one area where the bloggers, HA included, might be able to make a real difference.
While most folks don’t know what the Commissioner of Public Lands actually does for a living, certainly the main backers of the current batch of Republicans knows just how important this job can be.
Due to lax oversight under the current Commissioner, timber companies have caused damage that we taxpayers have had to pay to repair. They reap the benefits, we pay the costs.
So much for fiscal responsibility.
So, while trolls like Rick D deny the existence of documented evidence because their bosses over at BIAW tell them to, the rest of us need to keep the topic alive, until eventually even our local press starts to take notice.
Oh, and as for Mr. D’s allegation that Frank Blethen and his paper are “extreme leftist press”, well, I suppose if you’re an active member of the Volksfront, you would think so.
But even Mr. Blethen would laugh at that allegation.
John B. @ 141 said:
“Due to lax oversight under the current Commissioner, timber companies have caused damage that we taxpayers have had to pay to repair. They reap the benefits, we pay the costs.”
Yeah! And how about all those greed-head developers building houses in Gig Harbor? Why don’t they put a stop to building out in that area so the new Narrows Bridge won’t become congested again? What’s wrong with no more building in that section of Pierce county so we can maintain the quality of life?
@140
Well, if you ever make it out, first round’s on me. Would love to meet you.
[Deleted — Darryl, see HA Comment Policy]
Thanks Goldy for bringing this Stinkyness to the Light of Day!
Absolutely makes my skin crawl!
Two incidents already, and the point was clearly made that he was coming & ‘looking for adventure’. NO Supervisor should ever be touching a subordinate (without invitation) unless said Supervisor is screaming “Call 911” while administering CPR!
I would expect that if this was the young woman’s first job like it sounds, her family & lawyer & friends advised her to quit, get the hell out of Dodge and never even ADMIT to having working in that place – given the way the DNR toadies tried to softpedal and make it seem like nothing. Shame, beyond shame!
Look at how many ‘whistleblowers’ with YEARS of experience find themselves blackballed, never to work in their field again – for reporting or suing over longer standing issues.
RickD
“If there were any legs (or truth for that matter) to the story, the extreme leftist press in Seattlegrad would have been all over it like flies on a stench-ridden liberal on a crowded commuter bus.”
Be careful what you wish for there, Squirt.
Oh…and watch the Seattle Times on Wednesday….
LMAO at you!
@ 133 Richard Pope
I think Richard makes an EXTREMELY valid point:
I remember when I was a low level secretary in one of the City of Seattle Dept’s Finance Divisions. My ex- took me to the cleaners with his credit cards when he bailed out of town. Since this is a Community property state, all debts landed in my lap since I was the smuck they knew where to locate.
Bankruptcy was an extremely BAD thing in the Company (couldn’t even use my Retirement Fund to cover the debt without quitting) – but once it was done, it was over. Garnishment, on the other hand, was the Kiss of Death! Concept was that since Payroll (part of Finance) would be required to ‘pay my bills’ for me bi-weekly for months or years on end, then I must NOT be able to manage my own finances or personal business.
People unable to manage their affairs properly were considered more open to fraud, blackmail, theft.
Now, for Sutherland to be the MAYOR at the time of what appears to be four simultaneous garnishments – what does that say about his ability to manage DNR? Perhaps HE might be more likely to succumb to situations of “fraud, blackmail, theft”?
Doug Sutherland story is in today’s (Wednesday, July 16, 2008) Seattle Times:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....nd16m.html
@ 147 Thanks Richard!
I’ve been in there scratching around (got sidetracked with the Bush veto on Medicare).
@ 145 Darryl must be psychic, huh?
@ 145 Darryl – So what? the Times even said :
Just another politically motivated attack with an anonymous accuser. Also, some of the same peeps that supplied the info were the same ones backing that little pervert Governor Mike Lowry (D), (handsome Gremlin isn’t he?) back in his 2000 race against Sutherland.
Lastly, You’ll notice how prominent it is on the Times on-line homepage I had to type in ‘sutherland’ into the search box to find it initially at 6am. It may move into a more prominent headline later on, but for now, this one is buried fairly well.
So I guess I can LMAO off at you until then, Squirt.
To summarize Rick D: (imagine Barney Fife’s squeeky voice:
@138: Rick (stupid) D
Guess your argument that there are “no legs” to this story since the “press” has not published it yet – are out the window.
Are you now going to admit that this IS an important story?
Let’s see, we now have the following on the republican Sutherland (Land commissioner (Weyerhauser)):
1. Failure to adequately protect the public from clearcutting on dangerous slopes – costing tqxpayers and the DOT millions of dollars.
2. Sexual harassment – and he is still not admitting or aware of his actions.
3. Possible deadbeat dad (see Richard Pope above).
What else do we need to drive this neanderthal out of office?
There are lots of women I know who never wanted to be alone with Sutherland, not because he ever did anything inappropriate, but because he creeped them out.
I am stunned at how the Seattle Times is covering this online (I don’t get the print version). The headline isn’t listed on the front page at all, and once I click on the “more” link to find it the headline isn’t the harrassment, but that he apolgized. And the lead paragraph focused on that the woman quit despite his apology. The story goes on to blame Democrats for pushing the story.
Politically Incorrect (at 11:01 PM)
Well, considering that the big development coming in around here now is from Quadrant Homes (owned by Weyerhauser), you might infer from some of my posts that I agree, at least in part.
And you’d be right.
Disclosure – many agents, myself included, are not big fans of Quadrant. Among other things, they are known for trying to bypass us, even when our clients tell them that they already have an agent. My opinion of their product may well be influenced by my opinion of their business practices.
While some of the big brokerages may support unlimited growth, most agents do not, once they have enough experience to understand the issues.
From my perspective, these big developments compete with me for clients, and they increase congestion, thereby decreasing my quality of life. When they’re done building “garage door canyons”, they move on to the next town.
I live here.
The problem with the “building moratorium” idea is that small property owners (Joe Sixpack, bought a lot, wants to build a house) get caught up in them and lose their shirts, while big developers either get waivers or simply shuffle their building schedule.
DNR is one of the players involved in the large developments, and having someone at the helm that is not beholden to Weyerhauser sounds pretty good to me.
As someone who has been subjected to sexual harrassment …
This is a really creepy storey.
There are elements of potential stalking (probably the real reason she quit)
I would have interpreted this to mean that he would continue his unwanted attention.
There also appears to be no boundaries on an elected official. No one helped this poor person. The button talk was really offensive. In my experience, style of clothing makes no difference these creeps go after everyone.
The other thing that hit me is that his behavior appears compulsive, he committed a second act of inappropriate touching right the same day.
I suspect this isn’t an isolated incident & is representative of how he treats subordinate women (maybe not in front of potential witnesses). It is obvious that he felt safe infront of his long term underlings.
The business reason why harrassment is bad & why it should be broadcast with all it’s creepy details:
1. Potential legal action.
2. Reduced productivity, in my case no
women would go anywhere alone. This
increased labor costs.
3. Increased training costs – everyone gets to
go to Sexual harrassment training (so as not
to single out commissioner?)
4. Shows bigotry is OK – leading to other
harrassment problems
Practical considerations:
After this semi-public incident I bet DNR hired fewer women, easiest way to get rid of problem.
When you apply for job, most application ask whether you have ever sued an employer. That & the publicity is probably why she never sued.
Personal experience impacts the damage received. The woman in my group who was raped 2 years earlier, was much more severely impacted than other employees.
The creep I dealt with was fired, then rehired a few years later because no one put the paperwork in his personnel file. I went to personnel & complained. Suggested they might want to talk to his current female subordinates. Assume they did because, shortly thereafter he dissappeared never to return again.
Someone needs to talk to women who currently deal w/ Sutherland in DNR.
Look at it this way. At least this young gal is hot enough to warrant the male attention. She should be thankful for that. If she had been some fugly heifer, we wouldn’t be talking aboiut this.
@ 153 ~ The Times knows this is a non-story and are treating it as such by not even giving it the time of day on their homepage.
I guess Darryl is looking like the squirt this time :) can’t help but notice he didn’t chime in yet this morning even when he thought he was cock of the walk just last night.
Sorry kiddies, the next fabricated story by Goldy should contain factual information rather than anonymous/unsubstantiated claims.
Helps to build credibility you know….Til’ then, Garbage in/ Garbage out.
Look, it’s Dick R, the chickenhawk.
Hey, pussy, when ya pony up that grand and place your wager/big mouth on McCain????
Yeah, thought so. Punk.
@ 158 ~
if only there was 1 trustworthy person on HA. I don’t let anyone I don’t know hold a grand of my ca$h sweetheart, so find another sucker. A Jobless fella like you has all day to find someone to wager with.
President Obama – say it with me you chickenhawk assholes!
13 hours later……..Darryl’s a “no show”.
Where’s that huge ta do in the Times Darryl?
Yup, blockbuster story uncovered by Goldy has been received by partisan Democrats in both the print and radio media with one huge collective yawn.
Matt Drudge you’re not!…
@moron 161:
Guess the FRONT PAGE in the Seattle times wasn’t enough for a right wing nut. So what if the on-line edition has less – it already went front page this morning.
Sutherland is going down and Rick D is a partisan right wing nut – busy making excuses for republican corrupt behavior – it ought to be a full-time job for that chump.
156 MGI
You manage to be an idiot AND an asshole at the same time.
Like rape, sexual harassment is not about sexual attraction; it it about power.
This is not surprising, especially about the coverup of the facts. That is the way DNR operates and has for the 80 years it has been in business. Being a person who left (female, attractive, and harassed) I can speak from experience that it is a Good Old Boys Network and continues to be one ongoing and ongoing. What they need to do is get rid of the fucking place and start over.
163 – And if she were a nasty fat pile of goo the old man would not have given her a 2nd glance and she would probably still be working there. Male Supervisors don’t make sexual advances toward female charges because of “power” issues. It has more to do with her heart shaped ass or perfect C cup breasts. IDIOT.
Ass hole @ 165:
Sounds like your voice of experience speaking.
MGI
So, it’s your contention that the sexual harassment is the woman’s fault because she doesn’t spend enough time scarfing down burgers and bonbons.
Since she’s an attractive young lady, it’s her fault when some joker that substitutes balls for brains decides that the work place is an appropriate substitute for a pick-up bar.
And following your reasoning, if said joker drags her into the storage closet and rapes her, well, she shouldn’t have dressed nicely or worn makeup. It’s her fault, and she should just lie back and enjoy it, right?
That itch you feel? It’s crabs, and you deserve them.
167 – Nice non sequiter. I never said its the womans fault. Clearly anyone in a Management position in any company that sexually harrases someone isn’t playing with a full deck. They might as well wear a sign that reads “sue me” or “fire me”. My comments merely reflect the reality that it is the very attractive women who are the object of a straight mans desire, not the unattractive ones. Think of any high profile sexual harrassment case that has been in the news. How many of these women are over 40 and weigh more than 200 lbs? Not many. In fact, none of them are. This is no accident.
Fortunately for these hot women, most have bosses that only look, but don’t touch, make advances, or ask them out on dates. Ever hear the saying “don’t shit where you eat”? Men with self preservation instincts follow this maxim, myself included.
Dick R @ 159 wrote:
“if only there was 1 trustworthy person on HA. I don’t let anyone I don’t know hold a grand of my ca$h sweetheart, so find another sucker. A Jobless fella like you has all day to find someone to wager with.”
First off, Fuck Nut, if I were jobless I wouldn’t be floating a $1,000 bet on the elections, you ass wipe. That, numb nuts, is called disposable income. That means money I can dispose of like trash and not affect my lifestyle.
You should try having enough cash on hand where you’d actually consider tossing a grand on a “who will win the White House” wager. It’s rather nice.
Maybe you can save your pennies and buy a Porsche or two. They’re nice cars to own. I know I have two myself. A 1993 RS America and a 944. Ask Puddybud, he’ll tell you.
Second, it’s obvious I’m not your “Sweetheart.” If anything you are obviously in need of a Sugar Daddy and I’m not your type. You’ll need to hook up with the likes of Marvin Stamn, or Sen. Larry Craig. I hear Marvin sucks a mean cock, AND, he’ll pay you $20 to do it.
Have him ‘service’ you 20 times and we can have that bet.
In conclusion, you stuck your tail so far between your legs and pissed on the floor it’s pathetic. No dough, no show, no balls to bet with either. So don’t start off your post with “if only” that’s the talk of LOSERS.
Now, run along loser.
It’s good to see you have extra income. Considering the bush economy you must be one of a few to have enough money to call it trash.
Why don’t you tell everyone your secret for not losing your home and being so rich you have money you can dispose of like trash.
You must be one of the “haves” of the country that john edwards talked about.
Regarding the judgements and garnishments: I don’t think he had any minor children at that time. I knew the Sutherland’s growing up, and graduated from high school with his son (and youngest child) in the late 70’s. Curious what he was trying to skate on.
Peter Goldmark is the superior candidate. Time for Sutherland to retire.
Not fair to drag Sutherland’s daughter into this.
Chris is a horrid editor.