Brian Baird pens a curious guest editorial that includes how to pay for health insurance reform; Chris at Politics Is a Blood Sport calls it what it is: a Value Added Tax, and it’s regressive and unfair as hell.
If this is some kind of trial balloon, I’ll be hiding in the attic over the garage eating some snacks.
Well, thankfully he’s not on Ways and Means, while people with more sense about taxation, like Jim McDermott, are.
And YOU lost me saying a progressive tax is a regressive tax.
Is this called an epiphany?
Attempts to pay for health insurance reform by taxing health insurance plans, even for the “blue-ribbon” plans for the wealthy, is a bad idea. It just gives the wingnuts ammo to try to scare the average person to think that the tax would apply to them, either now or eventually.
I think a far better approach is to strengthen the non-discrimination provisions of employer-provided health insurance plans. Whatever plans an employer provides, have to be available to all employees (in practice, as well as in theory). This would eliminate the two-tier system we have now where upper management gets a plan which pays for their wife’s cosmetic surgery and breast implants, but the worker on the factory floor gets screwed by plans which are designed to routinely deny claims or pay out bare minimums, leaving the employee with the lion’s share of the medical expenses.
Second step: If we MUST base most of our health care system on employer-provided health care, require employers to provide health care to all employees – even part-time, temporary, or contract workers. That would make it economically unfeasible for companies to make the majority of their workforce “part-timers” so that the really good employee benefits are researved for the upper management levels.
And yes, the “value added tax” is little more than a sales tax, which for the wingnuts is even better than a flat-rate income tax. The rate is flat, but since the rich don’t have to spend ALL of their income on everyday expenses, that portion of their income is tax-free. Since you can’t tax the working stiff more than the marginal rates they are already paying, it effectively freezes the tax rate at the lowest possible percentage which the poorest could afford. For the rich Republicans, it’s the best deal they’ve seen since the 1800’s – a federal tax rate not higher than 15%, with a lot of their income exempt from taxes because it is invested, not spent.
Now, the wingnuts will tell you that because that extra income is invested, everyone will benefit. They will say that “a rising tide floats all boats”. But what they don’t point out is that it’s not being invested in infrastructure that benefits everyone – roads, bridges, rail, etc. – it benefits primarily the rich.
Many of the rich will invest their tax savings overseas, or in wall street schemes designed to seperate the average American from their lifetime savings and homes. If you doubt that, you only need to ask: how many new factories/industries were opened in the U.S. when George W. Bush pushed through the tax cuts for the wealthy in 2001? How many more U.S. jobs were there at the end of his presidency than at the beginning?
Once again rhp6033 throws out utter bullshit.
This is from a recent NY Times article…”A recent report by Oppenheimer & Company, the investment bank, said, “It will be very difficult for the Senate Finance Committee to structure the fees in a way that they won’t be immediately passed on to customers in the form of higher premiums.”
It would also provide some protection for people with incomes from 300 percent to 400 percent of the poverty level (up to $88,200 for a family of four), so they would generally not have to pay more than 13 percent of their income in premiums.”
So if you make more than $88,200 that’s wingnut ammo rhp6033, wingnut upper management category? You are such a tool of the moronic class envy.
From a recent WA Post article…”But insurance plans that cover those types of things are rare. More common are the generous health benefits that many union workers receive — plans with high employer-paid premiums, low deductibles, prescription drug coverage, vision and dental care, and low or no co-payments.
Over the past decade or so, unions in contract negotiations typically chose to forgo large wage increases in exchange for more generous medical benefits, mainly because costs were rising faster than inflation. Now, as the Senate Finance Committee works on health-care legislation, union members say they feel unfairly targeted.”
So the union health plans fall into that wingnut upper management category. Yep, they are rich peeps per rhp6033. You are such a tool of the moronic class envy.
Puddy also liked this comment – “State workforces and nursing home workforces — they are older and their plans are more expensive,” said Celia Wcislo, an executive board officer of District 1199 of the Service Employees International Union. “They were talking about lawyers with their Cadillac plans, but in fact, the way it’s written applies to everyone.””
Cry me a river SEIU. You spent $85 million of you union dues to elect Barack Hussein Obama Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm and then laid off 74 workers for lack of union funds. You all suck! Mrs ylb arschloch hasn’t weighed in on this yet because ylb arschloch won’t let her!
From another article in the NY Times…”“It puts a bigger tax on middle-income Americans who are already paying enough,” said Harold A. Schaitberger, the general president of the International Association of Fire Fighters. The union says some of its members around the country are in plans that would be subject to the tax.
People who live in high-cost areas, like the Northeast or California, would also have a greater risk that their insurance plans would set off the excise tax — not because the coverage is particularly generous, but because the price of their policies reflects the higher medical costs where they live. Massachusetts residents, for example, tend to pay more than a quarter more in premiums, on average, than people living in Idaho.”
Butt wait a minute, per rhp6033 this is wingnut ammo. Yep, they are rich peeps per rhp6033. You are such a tool of the moronic class envy.
Of course we know where rhp6033 gets his kook-aid from!
Puddy–
Excellent excellent excellent!
@6-7
What a stinking steaming pile of utter horse shit…
…there is no end to your self-hatred is there?
As usual, Puddy-moron misses the point. The point was that taxing health insurance premiums is a bad idea – a better approach is for the employer to provide equal access to health insurance for all employees, not a two or three-tiered approach. That way, the management has a vested interest in making sure the insurance plan is a reasonable one from the employee’s perspective.
So Puddy ignores the fact that I actually said something he should agree with – that taxing health insurance premiums is a bad idea. Giving the wingnuts ammo is one reason, the fact that it might inadvertantly penalize those who actually get decent health care is another argument (which I didn’t have time to get into right then, since it’s a numbers issue, and it’s moot if you decide not to do it for political reasons anyway.)
So instead of agreeing with me, Puddy’s wingnut knee-jerk reaction is to argue with me about it. Somehow he seems to be arguing that I’m in favor of taxing health insurance benefits of a family earning over $80,000 a year. I guess he didn’t read my comment very closely, because I clearly never said that. Next time, Puddy, READ THE COMMENT. If you can.
Troll @ 2,
“And YOU lost me saying a progressive tax is a regressive tax.”
Ask your mommy to explain it.
SHOWS THE CORNER LIBERALS HAVE PAINTED THEMSELVES INTO. IF YOU WATCHED FOX, YOU’D KNOW THAT BAIRD IS CARRYING PELOSI’S WATER ON THIS – IT WAS EXTENSIVELY DISCUSSED THIS PAST WEEK. GET READY, ITS PART OF “YOUR” PLAN – CALL IT “OBALOSI WORLD”! QUESTION: HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE WIN OVER ANYONE IF ALL YOU EVER DO IS SPEW PROFANITIES AT EACH OTHER? I MEAN, AT LEAST MONTY PYTHON HAD STYLE.
rhp6033,
Ummmm…. Nope!
You have been on the side of public option since it was first touted by your buds. For you now to claim “I see the light” does not compute. Too many of these
All of these comments were blown out of the water by #6. Union members have those cadillac plans you are screaming about in your “two-tier” system.
Puddy waiting to see how many of those UBS savings accounts are occupied by Democrats. Just like Raj Raj Rajaratnam and his arrest, more and more Donkey jock straps are getting caught!
Oh Puddy read your comment but you’ve been disingenuous before with your public option support and you by those comments above are talking with forked tongue!
Puddy thinks taxing Congressional Health Plans is a great idea!
Of course the dumb cinder block who NEVER brings a cogent thought to any argument appears in #8.
Why do you hate America dumb cinder block? It’s your party who wants to tax people under $90K numb-block! Why do you hate your union brothers dumb cinder block?
@4 “Attempts to pay for health insurance reform by taxing health insurance plans, even for the “blue-ribbon” plans for the wealthy, is a bad idea. It just gives the wingnuts ammo to try to scare the average person to think that the tax would apply to them, either now or eventually.”
Yep, there’s no lie too outrageous for the right to spew. Back in the ’80s, when they were trying to repeal the state inheritance tax, they plastered the state with ads and billboards depicting a little old lady sitting in her rocking chair with her meager possessions piled on the curb, and a sign on her little house with a picket fence that said, “Sold For Inheritance Taxes.”
Never mind that only millionaires pay inheritance taxes. Wingers have never let truth keep them from telling a lie capable of getting the ignorant masses worked up.
@5 “They will say that “a rising tide floats all boats”.”
If that’s true why are wages falling and unemployment going up?
I don’t even try to pretend that my “investing” creates jobs or produces anything. I’m nothing but a leech playing a zero-sum game that takes advantage of other “investors” mistakes. All I do is take money out of their pocket and put it in my money. For this, the tax code rewards me with a 10% tax rate while working stiffs pay 32.65%! I know that sounds screwy — but what can you expect after letting Republicans write the country’s tax policies for 30 years?
erratum @15 All I do is take money out of their pocket and put it in my money.
Let’s try that again. All I do is take money out of their pocket and put it in my pocket.
@13 “who NEVER brings a cogent thought to any argument”
You should talk — you can’t even write a coherent sentence.
@11 That’s nothing compared to the corner you warmongering, torturing, lying, and looting gangsters have painted yourselves into.
Of course, there’s no bigger supporters of a regressive national sales tax than Ron Paul and his wingnut supporters. They want to replace the income tax with a 31% federal sales tax so the rich can keep even more of their income and screw the poor and working classes even worse!
We all know what the GOP Party’s long-term tax policy goals are: Capitalists will pay NO taxes! None whatsoever! No taxes on corporate profits, capital gains, dividends, interest income, property, or inheritances. Only wages will be taxed.
The phonyassholeregurgitatorofdiscreditedright-wingtalkingpointsknownaspuddy seems to think I OWE him something. I OWE him a great big GIANT SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY.
Nothing you bring here is original. You cadge this crap from whatever wing-nut delusional delivery system you happen to be jerking off to at the time and then run it through your phony christianist cult crapulator and spew it out here like anybody should give a fuck.
We Don’t.
We don’t like Puddy.
Whoever you are in real life may be ok, but Puddy is a pompous bombastic ass and a simpleton in the worst sense of that word.
Speaking of words…”cogent” is your new one?
Wow.
Under a system like that, the disincentives against working would be so great that no one could afford to work. Pretty soon we’d be getting our social security checks from China becaue no one in our country would be paying FICA taxes anymore.
Fucking rock was smarter than puddlebrain.
“your phony christianist cult crapulator”
LMFAO!!!
Ahhh yes, Puddy uses the NY Times and the WA Post, two known bastions of “conservative” thought dumb cinder block? Nope you Dope. They are two know bastions of libtardo thought. And Puddy don’t need to jerk off to any news org. Since you never bring it rujax, you must self-impregnate, there is no need to accuse you of jacking off to left wing-kook-aid since you are an empty suit.
BTW the Times is gonna have another layoff by year end fool. Maybe you should contact all the dumb cinder blocks around and have them subscribe to the libtardo Times.
Since you are a cinder block that makes you really stupid!
Poor poor dumb cinder block. So stupid all the time.
And my “crapulator” SLAPS your head all over the place all the time.
How progressive of the dumb cinder block! Maybe he should take his own words to heart!
There is the nub of something sensible here.
We ARE going to have healthcare legislation.
It would be fun if Puddy would chip in some real ideas about how he thinks this should be done.
1. Cost Control. This is not just a US problem though things are far worse here than anywhere else. Universal care, as the right claims, is likely to drive prices up since the demmand id now inflexible. If we do not control price we will destroy our economy.
A lot of the stuff from the right is silly, but not all. Tort reform IS reasonable but will not have a major effect on price. OTOH, the argument for a national pool, certainly one made by J McCain,ought to be made by the right. How would such a pool work?
2. Opportunity The right often cites Mr. Jefferosn’s vision of the US as a land of equal opportunity for all. They forget, I think, that TJ believed in universal free education.
Given how science and society have evolved, I believe Tom would also believe that healthcare should be protected sp as to allow each person to achieve equally based on her or his drive and abilities rather than sources of wealth.
An “opportunist” based healthcare system easily addresses the needs of children and younger folks. However, the issue of the right’s death panels becomes all to real since a huge part of our cost of health care comes at the end of life, after most achievement is done.
So, I wonder Puddy, would you support a healthcare system that focussed on children and younger people to assure that money does nto determine opportunity? If the govt does Not pay for extending life (as the NHS does not in England) are you guys gonna yell about death panels?
Oh.
Ow.
Oh.
That sure hurts.
Wow.
Really got me there.
Oooooo…big bad Puddybitch.
Ouch.
SeattleJew, not withstanding the fool known as rujax because he seldom ventures from the kook-aid… did you see this article? Once the precedent is set, if they perform this during a flu emergency, what’s to stop them from declaring some other emergency another time.
Puddy already said he supports SCHIP but not at $82,500 level. Puddy said he doesn’t support SCHIP for someone such as ylb arschloch who shits on his ASS attacking his political enemies all day and not working. This fool and his family would qualify.
Dumb cinder block @27. Yes, the full extent of your intelligence on display.
See ya sucka!
The Prosecution Rests!
@26..
Don’t expect much, if anything.
I asked the dimwit a while ago some real open ended questions about what he really thought about stuff. I just wanted to know what he thought…what his opnions were.
So I got back a pile of slanted right-wing talking point statements in a “question” form from puddydumblikeastump and his cabana boy marvin. Told me everything I needed to know about “dialogue” with that (those) jerk-off(s).
But I really knew that already. I was ready for some bi-partisanship but like our (hated and vilified by the right-wing because he’s Black) President…I found out that there is no reasoning with these cretins. “Dialogue” to them is a sign of weakness. All they can do, all they want to do is attack. That is because they have absolutely….and I mean completely and absolutely NOTHING to bring to the table as far as solutions are concerned.
It is clear beyond any doubt that they do not even understand what the problem is.
Nice try though, SJ…but good fucking luck.
So Puddy @ 12 says: “Oh Puddy read your comment but you’ve been disingenuous before with your public option support and you by those comments above are talking with forked tongue!”
In other words, he doesn’t want to really address what I said, he really wants to comment on what he would prefer to think that I meant. He wants to create a straw man so he can then argue with that straw men, and then crow about being victorious in the argument.
Keep arguing with that straw man, Puddy. The rest of us will have a rational discussion.
And there’s nothing forked in my tongue. I think the single-payer system is best. I’ve seen it at work in other countries (Japan and Korea), and it’s embarrasing to try to have to explain our system compared with theirs. It also works well in this country, as evidenced by the widespread support for Medicare by seniors of the entire political spectrum. But if we can’t achieve a single-payor system due to politics and wingnut fanaticism, then the public option is better than nothing. And no, I don’t think it should be paid for by taxes on health insurance plans.
We don’t understand what the problem is?
Dude you are clueless to reality. The problems are numerous.
1) Declare who are the uninsured really are. Is it 10 million 25 million 30 million 47 million or 68 million. Remove politics from it.
2) Declare how the public option program will be paid for. What are the real costs. Why did Debbie Stabenow have to write another bill to cover another $245 billion in additional Baucus bill costs so the Baucus bill comes in “under budget”?
3) Declare what are the real fines is you choose not to participate?
4) Declare who pays what for insurance at each $25,000 of income
5) What happens when doctors quit because the reimbursement rate is so low they can’t make a decent living? The real reason for the Stabenow bill?
6) What happens when the real costs of medicinal research hits the fan because drug companies stop making drugs?
7) Why is rujax a certifiable moron?
rhp6033, Puddy has worked in Japan too.
What does Japan have in their system that we don’t?
Puddy will wait for the answer.
You are a big single payer system supporter? Of course but how do you pay for it? Above you claim don’t use draconian taxes, butt you support a system that will force draconian taxes on everyone. There is the straw man and you created it in your original comment. Now you run away from it.
@32…
Oh…he does have a brain.
Finally.
Comin’ a liitle late to the party, son.
If the stupid moron dumb cinder block rujax had been paying attention to details over the last few months he’s recognize each of these questions from Puddy! Instead the dumb cinder block rujax is drinking left-wing whackamole kook-aid and always cursing his head off at anything he didn’t agree with. The dumb cinder block rujax would have realized everything Puddy placed in #32 has been asked earlier this year.
Ask your first cousin the dumb brick ylb arschloch for the data. Go ahead and ask him dumb cinder block. He claims he doesn’t take orders from right thinking people.
So ask him dumb cinder block. Puddy dares you to ask the HA arschloch and let’s see his answer!
Here’s you big chance to prove Puddy a liar. Take the red pill dumb cinder block rujax. The blue pill won’t work.
Dearest “Puddybuddy”;
Go.
Fuck.
YOURSELF.
There you go everyone. When confronted with facts the dumb cinder block’s “head” explodes.
Puddy knew you’d never ask ylb arschloch for proof.
And… There he goes again with the cursing… Puddy doesn’t perform liberal sex acts. How does one “fuck themself”?
The Prosecution Rests!
Puddy @ 33: I don’t have the time to go into all the details of the Japenese system now. A brief summary from Wikipedia:
The cost of a doctor’s appointment, and many proceedures, are minimal. The down side to the doctors is that their fees are regulated, and insurance companies are prohibited from certain advertising or from making a profit at all (they are all non-profit).
It’s not perfect, of course. The aging population is straining the budget. But Japanese health care costs 6% to 8% of their GDP, half of the cost of health care in the U.S., although the results are generally better than in the U.S. And some people might not like the idea of having to wait for an hour or two to be seen by the doctor, or the relative equality in which all patients are treated, etc. But nobody goes bankrupt due to medical expenses. And you don’t hear Japanese auto companies complaining that they are going broke trying to pay for their retiree’s medical insurance.
“The Prosecution Rests!”
Followed immediately thereafter by the judge dismissing all charges for failure to prove the essential elements of the alleged crime.
rhp6033… Puddy was expecting you to visit WikiPedia. But WikiPedia doesn’t cover the doctor choice, the doctor freedoms in treating the patient, etc.
Butt rhp6033, you already brought up the single payer straw man without how to pay for it.
See ya.
And… The Prosecution Does Rest.
Puddy @ 40: Doctor’s choice? Are you referring to the choice of patients to choose their own doctors? Patents in Japan can choose any doctor they wish. And doctors aren’t restricted in how they treat their patients, except that malpractic which results in physical injury or death can be treated as a criminal case. (How’s that for tort reform!)
rujax vomits:
Hey Puddy, you win…again!
The fringe lunatic left like rujax cannot sustain a decent dialogue or argument….so their only option is SHUT UP opposition.
Puddy wins…again!~
36. Rujax! spews:
Rujax’s only argument!!
Forgive Rujax Lord…because he is doing the very best he can.
Rujax, steve and the other vulgar KLOWNS cannot figure out THEY are destroying the HA threads with their constant vulgarity and ZERO arguments.
Who wants to waste their time reading vulgarity??
“Rujax, steve and the other vulgar KLOWNS cannot figure out THEY are destroying the HA threads with their constant vulgarity and ZERO arguments.”
I’m sure we all appreciate how concerned you, a goatfucking wingnut troll, are about the vulgar content of the HA cesspool.
@23 That was the point.
Your critics seem to be right on because you are offering nothing CONSTRUCTIVE.
.
This is exactly what the assorted bills propose to do. How would YOU do it?
off the point, esp as the Baucus bill does not propose a public option.
Same issue. If you are not just a kitten playing with a catnip toy, make a proposal how to create the low costs the puboic options folks see as important.
Also irrelevant. What do YOU propose?
4) Declare who pays what for insurance at each $25,000 of income
The plans all do this .. the dem plans. Tell us how you would do it?
The Stavenow bill does address a real issue (she is, after all a drm). OK .. now what? How do you propose to restrain costs?
Again, not an issue because you have no proposal.
Once again SeattleJew shines a spotlight on trees in a forest. It’s the wrong forest. Puddy been asking all these questions and you HA Libtardos skirt the issue or just don’t answer. It’s your plan (you support it) so tell us what are the real costs.
1) What is the real number of uninsured? Your side is screaming and shouting with different numbers. What is the real number?
2) 4 of the 5 bills have the public option dude. Wake up and smell the facts. The preznit wants a public option. So what will it really cost. Since you support it what is the cost?
3) Fines are not irrelevant. Get real SeattleJew. You think ylb arschloch gonna be able to pay the fines if he stays unemployed? The preznit’s acolytes have said there will be fines so what are they and who has to pay?
4) All plans have the personal and family costs laid out for each $25,000? How since none are law yet SeattleJew?
5) Why does Stabenow need to write another bill? The Baucus bill should have the full accounting which conservatives have said is over 1 Trillion just as Puddy asked before. So $859+250= over 1 Trillion just as Republicans originally said. Smoke and mirrors plan.
6) How is this not an issue? When drug companies stop their research what happens next?
Puddy supports the Republican plan. That’s my final answer. It’s cheaper and works more efficiently.
See ya. Better find your scratching post.
Good question, asshole…
…do yourself a favor, protect your fragile sensibilities…
GO THE FUCK AWAY AND STAY THERE.
…THAT’S ‘CAUSE IT DOESN’T EXIST!!!!
There IS no fucking republican plan…except keep paying outrageous salaries to HealthCare Company CEO’s and let them deny coverage to premium payors. THAT’s just a great fucking plan, asshole.
This is another reason Puddy calls rujax a dumb cinder block…
Here we go again peeps. This fool is soooooooooooooo stupid… Puddy has posted this for the fifth time now. Before correctnotright claimed there was no plan and now rujax does it again.
First introduced in May 2009. Butt rujax with his head up someone’s ASS has been “in the dark” all this time.
The plan and the votes fool.
SMACK
SMACK
SMACK
Another SMACKDOWN. An everyday occurrence with this fool!
Oh right.
That one.
The one with no details.
Yeah. That one.
Sorry. I forgot that one. It was too “complicated”. Too many “details”.
(Jeeee-Sus what a god-damned moron)
I liked their presentation of “The Plan” on the Senate floor. An easel and a white presentation board like you give your kid for fifth grade science fair. It had a bunch of fucking circles on it connected with lines.
Wooooo Hooooo!!!!
That’s some damn fine boy-howdy plannin’ right there yes siree bobby (Jindal-the exorcist)!!!
Fuck!!!….you’re stupid.
Hey dumb cinder block…
Earlier you asked where was the plan.
It’s in writing and yet you missed it. You are the dumbest cinder block anyone will ever meet.
Drinking from the trough again. Too much kook-aid from the various whackamole kook-aid dispenser sites.