There’s a hell of a lot to blog about, but it’s been a long day, it’s late, and I’m tired. So I’m just going to briefly mention a man I met at the rally today.
We’ve heard a lot about the 723 ballots that haven’t been counted because signatures were not scanned into the King County Elections computers. But what seems to have been forgotten is that these ballots were cast by real people… people like Jack Oxford, one of the 723 citizens who cast their ballots believing that every vote counts, only to find that theirs did not.
You may have seen Jack on the news, asking Dino Rossi not to take away his right to vote. Jack’s not a politician or an activist or a blogger, he’s just an ordinary taxpayer forced into the extraordinary situation of publicly pleading for his vote to count. He is also a veteran, who risked his life defending the basic democratic rights that Dino Rossi is now going to court to deny him.
If all we’re talking about is absentee ballots, and signature cards, and chain-of-custody, and canvassing and recanvassing and abstract stuff like that, it becomes easy to talk with authority about disenfranchising a disembodied voter because of a clerical error or a technicality. But unless we remember that each one of these ballots represents a real person expressing their most fundamental democratic right, we don’t know jack.
You said it, Goldy. I don’t know who Jack Oxford voted for, and it doesn’t matter — I want his vote counted, along with mine and with every other vote that was properly cast in this election to choose our next Governor. Dino Rossi, Chris Vance and the Republican propaganda machine were happy to trust the will of the people, too — when their candidate was ahead. But now that they think Rossi might not have gotten a majority after all, they’re working like mad to sow uncertainty and throw lawyers and technicalities in the way. I think it’s disgusting.
No one doubts the 723 are real, valid votes from real, individual Washington voters. Yet the GOP would disenfranchise them in hopes of stealing the election. To me, it sounds like they will say and do anything in order to win. Tactics and greed are trumping values and principles. If Rossi were a real leader, with real integrity, he’d stand up to let the votes be counted so we can be proud of our democracy.
I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
Absolutely right on Goldy. I wonder what the unsound ones would do if they found out that their vote had not been counted for some clerical reason? Politeness is not one of their finer traits.
Comments from Crying Chris Vance in the PI: “”I am trying very hard not to call Dean Logan a liar,” Vance said.
The election managers “had made a decision not to count these ballots. And then Larry Phillips started screaming. And that’s when everything changed,” Vance said, referring to the Democratic County Council chairman, whose vote is among the 573 at issue.
“Dean Logan works for Ron Sims. That’s important,” he added.
Both Democrat Sims, the county executive, and Logan were incensed by the GOP chairman’s remarks.
“Mr. Vance said good things about King County Records and Elections when things were going his way,” Sims said.
Now that Rossi’s victory is threatened, “he is being bombastic. He is being incendiary and vitriolic. It’s very unfortunate. But I don’t believe that Mr. Vance or anyone else is going to be able to show that King County Elections acted inconsistently with the law.” Fighting the great fight. When his guy seems ahead he is all praise. When his uboy seems threatened he goes balistic and talks crap. Some things never change
Some of your commenters say that all this will be forgotten in a month or two, but I disagree. If Chris gets to the statehouse, there’s still going some degree of mistrust and resentment from people statewide. But it will be nothing compared to the mistrust, resentment and downright anger that there’ll be if Dino gets there — if he has to do it by “legally” disenfranchising hundreds of voters.
BJ- and the rest of you- if Dino Rossi is elected after a Supreme Court decision upholding the Republican position, it will NOT be his fault- it will be the fault of the King County Democratic Administration for so badly screwing things up, and of the State Democratic Party for first turning loose the lawyers. It wasn’t the Republicans who chose to move this election into the courts, and I could make the same claim that a bunch of people are acvting like sore losers now that the game may not go their way- in the venue they first chose to play in.
I made this point earlier- If the Democrats had not gone running to the State Supreme Court to begin with, there would NOT have been a recent State Supreme Court opinion, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that the Republicans would have won a TRO unsettling what had been very settled practice- and those votes, to the extent signatures can be verified against former King County or SOS records, would be in the process of being counted.
Or to make another comparison- The Republicans are availing themselves of the same type of legal option that the Democrats chose to pursue when they went for the manual recount. Everybody is so far playinmg “by the rules”, however wisely or unwisely.
Or let’s put another human face on this- let’s call him “Larry”.
Larry is a perfect voter, who voted absentee this year because he was going to Ohio. Larry serves as chair of the body ultimately responsible for seeing that King County is properly run, funds are appropriated adequately to county departments, and that the machine is humming along nicely.
Larry has known for several years that there are problems in the County Elections Department, but has done little to see that the problems are fixed, that adequate funds are given to the new administrator to get the job done.
Under enormous stress, the machine breaks. Larry gets screwed.
Seems to me that of such stories do we see justice by bad karma…
I’m not claiming that the repubs aren’t playing by the rules. It’s just that in the court of public opinion, the repubs are going to get a lot more resentment for trying to deny 700+ voters (albeit through legal means) than the dems will get for trying (again through legal means) to have all the previously rejected ballots reconsidered.
BJ- you may be right, but for long-term reform (not just acting out of rage, however justified) I honestly hope they turn on Ron Sims and Larry Phillips. If Sims is re-elected, or if he steps down and Phillips is elected, the Democrats of King County will deserve to get screwed again.
However, if this rage should get properly directed and people fall in behind a reformer like Phil Talmadge… Well, not only might you get properly run elections, you might get a healthy parks system, too.
Call me cynical or suspicious but working in the loss prevention/asset protection field for enough years and with the stakes as high as they are for anyone to blindly dismiss the issue that it’s impossible for any of these newly found votes to be fraudulent or to dismiss the idea that no one would try and pull a fast one is a fool.
Sadly, we’ll never know the facts because King County is so screwed up and without a chain of custody on each one of these ballots I wouldn’t count any of these votes.
Be honest, many on this blog would scream bloody murder if King County was a republican stronghold and Gregoire was leading by 50 votes and someone found some extra ballots.
It’s too bad if some valid votes aren’t counted but maybe now heads will roll in King County and voters will hold the Ron Sims, who should have spent more time “inspecting what he expects” rather than running around the state trying to be Governor, and members of the County Council among others who’s responsibility is to make sure these things don’t happen. It isn’t like our elected officials weren’t on notice of repeated problems. This just shows the problems when elected officials are more concerned with getting a new job rather than focusing on the one he or she has at the moment.
I agree with you bj. That ‘small’ number of 700+ will turn into 100,000s+ of people who will never again trust elections and many will curse the right for their lifetimes.
jim king –
I agree completely with your comments about county government…
Jim P- of the 700 or so, my guess is that those who voted for Rossi will overwhelmingly not care if their guy wins without their vote. Then there are the voters who still haven’t figured out that their vote isn’t being counted. Let’s get real- the list is out there, and how many of the 700 plus have the Democrats been able to trot out for the cameras? I’ve seen or heard of four or five…
If the rage among these voters is so high, why couldn’t the D’s get a hundred of them together at a rally?
Typical American malaise…
By the way Goldy, congratulations for being a big part of unsounds article today. “Democrat activist David Goldplatednudnikstein, who writes the popular Asses’ Whore weblog, was elated: “I would never say anything that would make me look like a fool, and these new ballots are as perfectly legitimate as all of the other ballots that they kept finding in King County. This means that Gregoire finally wins, by like a million votes”.
Posted by Stefan
I was watching Boston Legal last night (not a bad show) and the defense lawyers did what the Republicans in WA state are doing now (which is good for their “client”).
The gist of their argument is “Our guy has won, and even if he lost, the election is tainted so we need a runoff.” Or, “Those ballots aren’t valid, but even if they are valid, they shouldn’t count, because those people might have received a letter back in May or even if they didn’t receive a letter they should have so don’t count ’em.” Good agressive lawyerly tactics. Doesn’t matter what the “facts” are, just frame the “situation” as favorably as you can for your client and offer alternatives (often with post-hoc reasoning) to explain away any holes in your theories.
Democrats (as I’ve said many times) need to keep doing the same. “These ballots are legitimate. They’re sealed and signed and were kept secure. The signatures are on file. Even if we sent them a letter back in May, there’s no doubt they’re registered voters.” and “This isn’t a recanvass. Even if it might be a recanvass, we’re legally allowed to do that” and so on.
If I were a lawyer for the Democrats, that’s what I would be doing. Don’t give an inch. And don’t, for a second, believe the Republican claims that the people will be up in arms about Christine “stealing” the election. It’s just not going to happen that way.
Oh – to make it more clear, the lawyers were defending a woman accused of murdering her husband and his mistress. They basically said, “There’s reasonable doubt with the evidence, and even if she did do it, she was in a dissociative state, and couldn’t have formed intent to murder.” Kind of gives the jury options when thinking about the issue of “if not her, then who would have done it?”
Comment by Dave— 12/20/04 @ 8:32 am
“Be honest, many on this blog would scream bloody murder if King County was a republican stronghold and Gregoire was leading by 50 votes and someone found some extra ballots.”
Well, I wouldn’t scream bloody murder. I’d be dissapointed that my candidate ended up not winning, but I’d be happier than every vote was truly counted.
Honestly.
NOT TRUE- I have seen many of my candidates loose and never once have I heard a Democrat carry on like Chris Vance and he IS a mouthpiece for Rossi.
Gregroire has openly stated on camera- she will abide by the count…..the R’s trotted out the new election line…..she said no.
What is this tarring of the Dems with the Bad Guy propaganda brush?
R’s are coming unglued because they finally figured out they might loose. Tension is hard on them.
We all admit that King County has problems, those were being stated here weeks ago, not just name callig of Logan, but perspectives that there was something really wrong.
Sims is injured, Phillips is not – activist Seattle Democrats will organize mightily for reform…..and it will not involve castigating “idiot” voters. Big changes coming for disfunctional bureaucrats.
gb – It’s fairly simple. Republicans are guilty of a psychological neurosis known as “projection”. That is:
1) “A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits.”
2) “Attributing one’s own undesirabe traits to other people or agencies, e.g., an aggressive man accuses other people of being hostile.”
3) An individual who possesses malicious characteristics, but who is unwilling to perceive himself as a protagonist, convinces himself that his opponent feels and would act the same way.
Seems fairly simple to me.
And I also agree with gb’s general sentiment. If Christine loses, I won’t feel this election was stolen. If the Supreme’s rule that the 723 ballots shouldn’t be counted, I’ll be pissed, and it will give me even more reason to dislike Rossi and the Republican party, but I’m not going to pitch a fit about it.
And if Rossi wins, I certainly won’t “support our elected Governor”, but not because he’s stolen anything, but because of what his party stands for.
Except for the real left-wing fringe, I find Democrats far more pragmatic and tolerant of dissenting opinions than Republicans. This is increasingly the case as the national Republican party moves farther to the right.
I wonder what the unsound ones would do if they found out that their vote had not been counted for some clerical reason?
I don’t know about the “unsound ones”, but for all I know, my ballot wasn’t counted properly and I have no way of knowing whether it was or not. But after years of astonishing incompetence in the King County Elections agency, where this is the icing on the cake, I would demand top-to-bottom regime change of the people who are responsible for it. That goes for everybody from low-level staffers to senior managers to the majority party members of the County Council and the County Executive. Will the Democratic voters in King County join in the effort to clean house in our incompetent county government? I hope so.
—
One other point. No, David Goldstein was not mentioned in my satirical post. The person with a vaguely similar name is an entirely fictitious character.
Stefan – If by clean-house you mean elect other democrats who are committed to election reform, I might be behind that.
If your call for regime change means supporting Republicans, just because they happen to also want election reform, not a chance.
SCOOP FOR THE GOOD BLOG – Supreme are scheduled to hear the case on Wed, 9:00 am.
Woo – exciting. Someone needs to go to the hearing and “live blog” it.
KC elections needs major reforms. The state also needs to step up with some uniform standards and money. I’ve said here before that Logan and Huennekens should go,and whoever is hired needs carte-blanche to keep cleaning if necessary. I realize Logan/Huennekens inherited one hell of a mess and this may not be all their fault, but they will never again have the credibility and an example that this is unexceptable needs to be set.
With that said, as goldy stated so well, these are real people through no fault of their own who are being disenfranchised. Probably other veterans than the one mentioned, older people who may never cast a ballot again. There is no fraud here folks, nothing that should have prevented those ballots from being counted in the first place and nothing other than ugly greedy politics preventing them from being counted now. No one knows for sure what votes are in those 723 fellow citizens ballots, but above anything else they need to be counted.
Stefan – just keep calling the disenfranchised idiots. That will poll well in your theory that this issue has poltical push…..also, fighting back Democrats have hardened their base…..those perfect voters who indentify 100 per cent with only one entity—–the people you folks are trying to shit on…..big time backfire in the works….Reformers have to have some credibility- called, COUNT EVERY VOTE, EVERY VOTER COUNTS……The R’s track record here is anti voter…..most of the retoric on your blog is focused on the idiot voter who can’t function properly…. Variations on that insulting, childish theme over and over……idiot voter even includes the middle age white guy who is a scoutmaster and teaches Sunday school…..Mr. Oxford…..
Call him and tell him how the R’s are now going to become reformers……
The news reports all state that Rossi is ahead by 50 votes. However, when I look at the Secretary of State’s website, I see a 42 vote Rossi lead in the machine recount and a net pickup so far of 7 votes in the manual recount, adding to 49. Am I missing something?
“If all we’re talking about is absentee ballots, and signature cards, and chain-of-custody, and canvassing and recanvassing and abstract stuff like that, it becomes easy to talk with authority about disenfranchising a disembodied voter because of a clerical error or a technicality. But unless we remember that each one of these ballots represents a real person expressing their most fundamental democratic right, we don’t know jack.”
Yeah, well respectfully Goldy: YOU don’t know jack about elections law and why, as in Why in God’s name, we have these rules. One more time before I get REALLY mad: If there is the possibility of vote tampering, then the ballots must be invalidated. The onus is on King County Elections to say where they kept the 527 ballots the whole time – and I know they don’t want to do that…
They were in the locked, secure, guarded, video recorded cage the entire time. If the votes were tampered with, it would be on video and Vance would have found the tape by now and would have said something about it. The votes were locked, guarded and recorded the entire time. If Vance wants the Supreme Court to believe that anything else is the case, he will have to provide irrefutable evidence of elections fraud. As is the case with every allegation, the burden of proof is entirely on the plaintiff.
Tim Copeland, Rossi has gained a net of 8 votes so far in the manual recount. Add that to his previous 42 vote lead and you get a 50 vote lead.
Josef – King county has spent more money on Security than Skagit spent on the whole election.
Bogus issue.
Oh c’mon Josef! I think Goldy does know more than “jack” about election laws. He’s done an admirable job of citing the proper parts of the state law when making his arguments.
His point is that beyond the arguments about the finer points of state law and the (admittedly important) issues surrounding these ballots, there are also real people who cast these ballots.
Sometimes it’s important to understand the human face behind the issue.
In court they call it “mitigating circumstances” and in the workplace they call it “understanding the needs of your stakeholders”. While technical compliance with laws and regulations is important, it is not the only thing by which success of an endeavor should be measured.
Brent- Tim Copeland is right- SOS site is now showing Rossi having gained 7, for a lead of 49… Trying to figure if they backed out that Chelan vote, or what. The last Chelan report is dated Tuesday, and that extra Rossi vote was canvassed Wednesday…
Well now, Josef. Look who’s talking. How dare you insult Goldy – you are a clueless flip flopper who knows next to nothing about election laws. If disenfranchising voters would help bring about a Rossi victory, than that is what you’d support. Clearly, you don’t have very high morals. Insulting Goldy only shows your incompetence.
That’s just a taste of what is yet to come your way if you should continue to insult progressives. We know how to hit back – where it hurts.
The SOS site shows Gregoire +562 Rossi +569. Rossi’s total is the same, but Gregoire has gained a vote. NWCN’s site is also now showing Rossi with a net gain of 7 votes in the manual recount and a lead of 49 instead of 50.
CORRECTION – Thruston adjusted their total – plus 1 for Gregoire
Comparing the differences between the SOS site, vote.wa.gov, and the site many small counties use, votewashington.org, the discrepancy is in Thurston County totals- SOS shows one more vote for Gregoire, but shows no new report since Thurston certified. Thurston County site conforms with SOS site, but also is dated last Wednesday.
Just what we need, another unexplained discrepancy…
When did that happen (the adjustment) and any details? I smell voter fraud. Thurston county officials should be fired! I demand a recall.
;)
Looking over the SOS web site I did notice something cool (amongst all the vote tallies). Looks like in almost every county there’s more than 80% turnout. I know that there are “eligible” voters who aren’t registered, but at least 8 out of 10 people who register are “bothering” to vote.
Hopefully that will keep increasing. I think any election is more valid if all the people who can vote, do.
The only time stamp I can find which is dated this week is NWCN’s site, which says it was updated today at 09:21.
Guess— canvassing board made a correction- might be a good tool in the suit.
The R’ suit in effect takes all real authority away from all the county canvassing boards, where TOTAL authority has rested for the better part of 100 years.
Who is the final arbitrater of voter issues in the counties? The Howler Vance? The courts? Big issue for the Dems, that is the orderly conduct of all eclections in all counties, all disputes and final certifications coves via the canvassing boards…… .
Is anyone surprised to learn that the judge who argued against counting valid ballots was rated “minimally qualified” to be a judge.
Judicial Elections to be held for Pierce County
Pierce County will elect Superior Court judges for departments 12 and 20 in this election cycle. The Tacoma-Pierce County Bar Association’s Judicial Qualifications Committee has completed interviewing the nine candidates for department 12 and both candidates for department 20 and published their evaluations. In order to achieve consensus on a particular candidate it was necessary for the members to agree by a two-thirds majority on that candidate’s rating. The committee members rated the candidates as either exceptionally well qualified, well qualified, qualified, minimally qualified, or not qualified. The committee’s ratings are listed below, followed by the criteria used. For further information, please contact the chairman of the Judicial Qualifications Committee, John R. Hickman, (253) 922-6769.
Department 12 (in alphabetical order, asterisk marks incumbent)
Lloyd L. Alton, Jr. Well qualified
Stephanie A. Arend* Minimally qualified
Scott A. Candoo Well qualified
Clayton R. Dickinson Qualified
Henry Haas Exceptionally well qualified
Christine J. Quinn-Brintnall Qualified
Douglas W. VanScoy Well qualified
Karl L. Williams Well qualified|
Edward S. Winskill Exceptionally well qualified
Department 20 (in alphabetical order, asterisk marks incumbent)
John A. Feutz Exceptionally well qualified
Kitty-Ann Van Doorninck* Well qualified
Kitsap Co.’s 154 vote corrections constitute 0.132% of their total vote from the 1st recount … King Co’s 723 vote corrections constitute 0.083% of their total … Alert Chris Vance! There is more potential corruption going on in Bremerton than in Seattle! It shouldn’t matter that it helped Rossi by 10 votes – Vance wouldn’t want to be hypocritical, now, would he?
ASG, where did you find that? Anyone else notice how she’s the ONLY judge who is listed as “minimally qualified”? It’s not surprising considering her complete lack of understanding of the Supreme Court’s decision.
ASG- Nice quoting the 2000 materials- and Lloyd Alton is a jerk. And he didn’t survive the primary, or do very well at all. Been rejected twice by the voters when he ran for the benchh.
Why don’t you go get the 2004 ratings… oh, they wouldn’t support your point, would they? She wasn’t even challenged in 2004…
And D Huygens- apples and oranges. Kitsap County’s 154 are manually counted votes that the machine couldn’t read- not ballots that weren’t counted the first and second times through…
Comment by jcricket— 12/20/04 @ 12:00 pm
A-men. REVOTE. I just sent Goldy the latest poll #s… not good for Gregoire!
Aren’t you Republicans always the ones criticizing Democrats for basing their opinions are “poll numbers”? And despite unfavorable polls for Bush, weren’t you touting his “resoluteness” and “conviction” for “sticking to his guns”?
Yes, you were.
So, poll numbers or no, Christine should keep on doing what she’s doing.
Josef, I just read the article “WA Governor’s Race: An Interview” on the pull on superman’s cape site. The “brief interview” given by King County Elections Director Dean Logan and King County Elections Superintendent Bill Huennekens is quite obviously a joke. All Logan says is “every vote counts!” repeatedly, and at the end of the “interview” the author says he’s “just kidding”. You used this obvious joke to try to prove some sort of liberal bias of the media because they did not report it. You never had any credibility to begin with, Josef, but now your comments are just outright stupid.
TO ALL PROGRESSIVES: IT’S NOT PROGRESSIVE TO YOU IN THE UKRAINE TO DENY THE PEOPLE A NEW ELECTION! SO IT’S NOT PROGRESSIVE TO ALL OF US IN WASHINGTON TO NOT HAVE A NEW ONE!
And Jenny – I read the briefs. And “If disenfranchising voters would help bring about a Rossi victory, than that is what you’d support. Clearly, you don’t have very high morals. Insulting Goldy only shows your incompetence” – okay, what if it were Spokane County, and it was Rossi votes that had to be shredded because of the rules of your candidate, who’s the State AG and upheld her predecessor’s rulings on the matter?
Good question. I hope I’d be on your side!
Comment by Brent— 12/20/04 @ 12:52 pm
I did not. I have ZERO editorial control over that blog. I only cited where the gent hosted the briefs.
Brent- forget the phony interview- go find the court exhibit that Josef was referring to- the staff report, otherwise known as Exhibit O- and the media have finally covered it this morning- see the P-I…
Come on JK – put your wit in gear– as they might say in the famous Lesbian salon – full of wit and sagesse- deep inside Lesbian bastion on C. Hill- you know the city—
“A correction is a correction is a correction is a correction, by any other name”….old apples and more old apples- in the we can make corrections to old appes and old oranges box.
Josef, the poll to which you refer states that ‘If Gregoire increases her margin in King County as a result of changing the rules in the middle of the game, that her “win” will not be accepted as legitimate and that a run-off election should be held.’
Since the rules state that these votes can be counted, the people trying to “change the rules in the middle of the game” are the Republicans who want state law to be ignored and perverted in the vein hopes that their candidate might win. The poll question was a hypothetical, and since Gregoire is not trying to change the rules, the people polled will not support a runoff election. They would if, hypothetically, Gregoire were trying to change the rules, but this week the state Supreme Court will set everyone straight about the fact that state law allows counties to re-canvass. After the Supreme Court rules, the 723 ballots will be canvassed, counted, Gregoire will win, Reed will certify the manual recount, Gregoire will become the governor-elect, and since the state Supreme Court will point out that she did not attempt to “change the rules in the middle of the game”, the only people who will support a runoff election are partisan hacks who want to waste $4 in the vein hope that their candidate would win.
Jim King, I’ve already examined the document and commented on it. It only goes to further prove my points.
Just to be pedantic, that’s $4 million. If it were $4 we’d be having a recall election every other week :)
Brent- if you can’t tell the difference between a satirical “interview” and a link to a staff report…
jcricket, yes, you’re right. I forgot to type the word “million”. I’m glad someone caught my mistake instead of just letting it slip on by when it was inaccurate. Finding and fixing mistakes is important.
Need to rethink found ballots vs. found mistakes in working ballots—
Jim King- that memo might backfire on the R’s- since it says these ballots were handled previously and were listed in some special category in the first cerfification. Thus they are not new, but in the BIG BALLOT BOX, of the first King County count.
The issue is no longer how new they are. Not really just found, mistakes about them just found. Ballots really listed in the tally from the first count in some exotic category.
Supremes need an opening and that might be it. You are loosing your legal mind – but you don’t like lawyes at all, suspect all the justices are lawyers.
gb- It is all fruit salad… :)
But I was trying to distinguish- because it is a difference at law and at the crux of the Supreme Court hearing- that we have apples, oranges, and pears-
Apples- the ballots that are at the center of the dispute- they were reviewed/rejected/whatever- but never counted
Oranges- the ballots that are the cause of most of the changes in numbers- they were counted previously, but the manual count was able to see votes that the machines did not see, or vice versa- faint marks in Kitsap, erasures in Adams…
Pears- Ballots that had been approved but never counted- the Snohomish 224 last time, the Whatcom 7 this time…
Even grapes- the King 22…
Each of these categories is different at law…
And gb- the problem is that the staff report does NOT put them in some exotic category- they were, rightly or wrongly, put in with the rejects…
Jim King, you and Joseph pointed to that “interview” as proof of a liberal media conspiracy, when it was actually a joke. I noticed it was a joke right away, but I’m not the one who was trying to make a point through it. Since that site is obviously a joke and has no credibility whatsoever, it doesn’t matter what it says there. You’re going to have to point to a credible news source which has reported about this, yet you haven’t done that. All you’ve done so far is try to use a joke from a ridiculous web page to prove some sort of liberal bias in the media.
Finally- there are a lot of lawyers I like- I just don’t like the lawyers messing with elections…
And the Judge and Justice lawyers didn’t choose to mess with the election- they had the shitpile dumped into their lap, and have to make it smell like a rose…
Brent- I never pointed to that fucking interview. I corrected your asinine inability to go to a site and find the previous thread with the link to the Exhibit O from the court case, which is what Josef referred to. I do not and have never referred to liberal media conspiracy except as a joke, and I noticed last night that the P-I had a story about it.
If you are too small, don’t blame me for your inadequacies…
Joseph was the one who pointed to that phony web site, but since you defended it I had to give you a hard time too. Especially because the exhibit “O” document proves my point that the ballots were kept secured and separated and not mixed in with the accepted or rejected ballots. If the signatures on the ballots had been cross-checked and found to be a mis-match, then your position would be valid. However, they were never cross-checked because there was nothing to cross-check. They were not rejected. They were kept separate from the accepted and rejected ballots, in a secure, locked, guarded and video recorded cage. The issue as to whether or not the ballots were officially rejected is a moot point anyway because state law clearly states that canvassing boards are allowed to make the decision to re-canvass if errors or discrepancies are brought to their attention. The only argument that can be for why these ballots should not be counted is the argument that fraud was committed. But you need proof of that and you don’t have it. So how can you possibly defend the position that these ballots should not be counted, even though state law clearly states that they should?
Brent- go read the staff report again- it clearly states what I quoted in… oh, forget it- go read your own previous posts where you talk about them being grouped WITH the rejected ballots…
I’m not wasting another bit of time that can’t even keep his OWN misinformation consistent…
Jim – in the pile of refects means they are IN the pile. That is my point—-seemingly subject to correction by the county canvassing board.
The R’s best argument is that they are completely NEW- found under stange CIRCUMSTANCE. That argument has evaporated.
Here’s a document you severely need to read. Go to the SOS site, download “Procedural Guidelines for Manual Recount”, scroll down to the “Ballots” section and you will see that it says the following:
“All ballots cast for the office of Governor must be included in the recount. RCW 29A.64.011. Counties are reminded that RCW 29A.60.210 provides that whenever the canvassing board finds that there is an apparent discrepancy or an inconsistency in the returns of an election, the board may recanvass the ballots or voting devices in any precincts of the county, and that the canvassing board shall conduct any necessary recanvass activity on or before the last day to certify the election and correct any error and document the correction of any error that it finds. Ballots needing enhancement, duplication, or canvassing board determination should be handled in the same manner as during the machine recount.”
This text is included in the rules which were set up by Reed, but it’s just a reiteration of state law. Reed is King County’s expert witness in the court case, and he’s listed as an intervening defendant in the case. Reed has pointed out state law and made it clear that he supports the counting of these votes, to the point that he will go to court to fight for the rights of those votes to be counted.
Jim King, your opinions are directly antithetical to state law and the rules which the Secretary of State set up for this manual recount. I said they were grouped with the rejected ballots because they were held in the cage of rejected ballots. But they were kept in their own pile inside the cage, so it is possible to tell which ballots are in question, which ballots were rejected and which ballots were accepted. It’s not my fault if you’re too incompetent to be able to understand what I’m saying. It’s also not my fault that you don’t understand state law and didn’t bother reading the rules set up by the SOS for this manual recount. It’s also not my fault that you cannot even comprehend the very basic concept that the Supreme Court ruled that canvassing boards will not be FORCED to re-canvass, not that they are not ALLOWED to re-canvass. I’m through responding to your comments because they are nonsensical and directly antithetical to state law and the rules which the SOS set up for this recount and will go to the Supreme Court to have upheld. If Vance wants to change the rules in mid-game, he’s going to have to be able to prove fraud beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt, and he has no evidence. This is an open-and-shut case. The 723 votes will be counted and Gregoire will win.
Brent – I think you have spelled it out very well….now we will see if the Supermes have any guts.
Brent- they were mixed in with the other rejects and had to be sorted out…
For you and the rest- the R’s argument is NOT that they are newly found- it is that they were previously rejected. That is what Arends ruled. I am not saying she is right, nor am I disputing what current practice is- I have said more than once that if the Dems had left well enough alone, and not gone rushing to the State Supreme Court in the first place, the previously well-settled law (which two weeks ago you were all griping about) would have been left alone, and these ballots would have been processed with little discussion.
I have argued in favor of that well-settled law, while many of you were criticizing King County and the SOS during the first lawsuit. I still believe that such well-settled law is the best public policy.
However, ya’ll got the apple-cart upset, and now are griping about them naughty Republicans grabbing your apples. Well, YOU knocked the damn apple cart over!
Now you have two competing legal theories in play- accepting well-settled practice, or going with a strict and literal reading of the law. And which way did the State Supreme Court go on felony murder?
Stop trying to pretend you’ve been on the high ground, or that you know how the High Court will rule…
The ballots in question were marked “no signature found” not “signature mis-match”. The issue of whether or not they were formally rejected is moot because of state law and the rules set up by the SOS. I know exactly how the Supreme Court will rule because during the last case they spoke about the part of state law which states that canvassing boards are allowed to re-canvass and did not raise any objections to it. Their prior ruling upheld state law and the rules set up by the SOS and now the same choice is in front of them. It’s quite clear that they will rule in favor of counting the ballots. Also, if the Republicans had not attempted to change the rules in mid-game by issuing a restraining order against King County to prevent the legal canvassing and counting of votes, King County would not have had to appeal the ignorant ruling to the Supreme Court. The plaintiffs are the Washington State Republican Party, and therefore the Supreme Court would not have to make this ruling if the Republicans had not attempted to change the rules by bringing the matter into court. You’re running scared and it shows. Your guy is toast and there’s not a damn thing Vance can do about it.
Live on King County TV – cable- the canvassing board in action – very orderly- sounds like some ballots are really mesed up, messages, whiteout, BUT as my house guest says, Gregoire is polling two to one over Rossi…..I think these are absentees.
Brent, you should meet Kevin Shannon over elsewhere on the Matrix- other than you being as knee-jerk left as he is right, you are both full of opinionated bullshit and KNOW-IT-ALL. I’m just sorry you can’t BOTH be wrong about how the State Supreme’s will rule…
Of course, you were certain about how Arends would rule…
Hey Josef –
“Most Americans now believe the war with Iraq was not worth fighting and more than half want to fire embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, the chief architect of that conflict, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.
The survey found that 56 percent of the country now believes that the cost of the conflict in Iraq outweighs the benefits, while 42 percent disagreed. It marked the first time since the war began that a clear majority of Americans have judged the war to have been a mistake.”
So Bush should fire Donald Rumsfeld and pull out of Iraq, right? The polls don’t look good for Bush.
But jcricket- Bush doesn’t have to worry about the polls…
But the Republicans in Congress do…
On a different note- are some of the liberals here willing to applaud the President’s remarks this morning regarding treating migrant workers better? He was quite passionate about a person looking for work- whom OUR economy needs- who’s trying to feed his (or her) family, should not have to try to cross the Texas or Arizona desert on foot, or be locked in a semi-trailer in 105 degree heat…
Given that many Republicans will be opposing the President on this, I hope- on this issue- many of you will speak up and give him some support…
Bush has only one political problem on this issue, his own semi-racist far right wing- used to be called Dixicrats.
Would feel better if they would raise the minimum wage in Texas, Arizona and New Mexico.
Well, Bob, he has more problems than that- you should see the neo-cons over at unSound Politics show their racist colors whenever this comes up- and this coming from folks who two decades ago couldn’t have gotten into those GOP country clubs in Bellevue…
There is a problem in the GOP that is more than the ol’ Dixiecrat element
I didn’t hear his comments, but who could disagree with the sentiment? The problem is, for all his talk, he’s never done anything to openly buck the anti-immigration forces in his own party.
Really? The exclusive eastside clubs now have Jewish members? Even where I grew up, where maybe 25% of my classmates were Jewish, the clubs are still ethnically segrated.
There’s a big difference between “accepting” minorities, and actually letting them in as members.
For the purposes of this immigration discussion – that Dixicrat is no longer local/South reference, and that the various breeding processes has scattered them around the counrty , even in the Eden-like, Belle Pudget.
Goldy- Bellevue has a private Jewish golf links and club – Glendale. On NE 8h before 140th. Been there for 30 years, nationally noted course… Don’t know current status…..
Goldy- they even let Italians in, now…
And he was quite passionate this morning- he had to stare ’em down over the National Intelligence bill, I’m waiting to see what he does here…
#1. I am NOT a Republican. I am a Dinocrat, albeit not much of one (voted K-E PROUDLY AND SHAMELESSLY, voted for Dem state senator candidate – who lost, and 1 state rep – the other came to my political rescue in 2K3, I could go on). Big difference.
#2. I mentioned the poll because it’s from the best polling service in the region.
#3. Brent, you’re anal. Enuf said.
Finally, it really unnerves me that NONE of you have addressed about the REAL Ukraine and what I said if the shoe was on the other foot…
Josef… careful, I might report you to the PDC. I just checked and I don’t see any
“Dinocrat Party” registered in this state.
As a voter, I sign my name in at the poll where my name is printed. It isn’t any simpler than that. People who choose to do else, and lose their ballot to mechanic deserve to have it lost.
Sorry to tell you Josef, but Elway is not consideder top drawer.
They are cheap… and good for a two question tag. Massive real campaign, never have hear them praised, by anyone.
Cute, Goldy – Dinocrats are Democrats who for whatever reason support more Democrats than Republicans but also support Dino Rossi. So are McKennarats…
Shouldn’t that be “Mckennacrat”…? No wait… you got it right the first time.
Actually Josef, these are meaningless silly words created by clever PR people, that don’t really mean anything. Many voters split their tickets, and very few so closely identify with a candidate like you do.
I’m with Goldy on this one. I, for example, voted for Sam Reed, but no other Republicans (for partisan races). I’m not a Reedocrat. I certainly think Rossi will come out and show his conservative colors (esp. on social issues) if he wins. Luckily the legislature is here to stop him from actually doing any damage (beyond vetoing good bills).
Jim King, comparing me to someone I neither know nor care about doesn’t bother me in the least.
Joseph, you show the severely limited capacity of your intellect when you simply call me a name and then don’t bother to elaborate. Any four-year-old can say “You’re anal!” It takes a mature, intelligent adult to be able to properly articulate their thoughts. You normally vote for Democrats but you voted for a Republican who has voted with the neo-con agenda 96% of the time (they suggest how to vote, so you can compare how the neo-cons wanted him to vote with how he voted), had his attack ads made by the same people who made Bush’s attack ads, and during the debate answered questions with “I’m not campaigning on that issue.” This is all common knowledge which is right there on the surface. You don’t have to penetrate anything to find it. If you decide to vote in the future, I suggest that you, at a minimum, familiarize yourself with the facts surrounding the issue or candidate. It’s important to listen to what a candidate says during their campaign, but it’s irresponsible to simply take them at their word. We all know politicians lie incessantly, and we all know that it is necessary to cross-check what they’ve said with what they’ve done. But people who vote for neo-cons don’t believe in cross-checking. They just take everything at face value. Elections workers in red counties decided not to cross-check signatures, even though they were legally required to do so, and you decided not to cross-check Rossi’s rhetoric with his record. Hopefully at least one person has learned from all of this that it’s necessary to vote, necessary to cross-check politicians’ rhetoric with their record and necessary to cross-check signatures. I’m not getting on your case for voting for a Republican. I’m getting on your case for voting for a smug, preppy Republican who has voted with the neo-con agenda 96% of the time and is backed by the White House 100%.
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