I was disappointed, though not entirely surprised, to see the anti-roads initiative, I-912, turn in 420,000 signatures on Friday. Barring historically massive signature fraud the measure will surely qualify for the November ballot. But I will not join the gloom-and-doom coming from some opponents, for its passage is no sure thing, and there is an attainable strategy towards defeating I-912: the media must simply do its job.
I don’t mean that it is the media’s job to defeat I-912… I mean that their job is telling voters the truth about what the transportation package means to their local communities. It will take a lot of work and a lot of research, but it’s their responsibility as journalists. And if voters across the state understand exactly what their communities will lose if the transportation package is repealed, then I-912 stands a reasonable chance of being defeated.
Understand first that despite the steady stream of propaganda coming from the initiative’s on-air sponsor KVI, I-912 is likely headed for a big defeat in King County… by an even larger margin than David Irons will be thumped in the race for King County Executive. Irons’ own polling shows I-912 losing by a 55% to 38% margin… 75% to 18% among Democrats. Even a third of KC Republicans oppose the initiative.
And this was a Republican poll designed to “push” some of the questions. Given steady, honest, thorough coverage in the local press, and sufficient paid media, the initiative should be defeated in King County by 10 to 20 points. I’m guessing a similar effort in Snohomish and Pierce, could make those counties a wash, while communities heavily dependent on ferry service will provide a modest margin of defeat.
But it’s Eastern Washington where the MSM really has to step up to the plate and explain the local impact of the transportation package to their local audiences. The package includes hundreds of improvement projects, many of which are intended to fix dangerous roads, intersections and interchanges… high accident areas where people have lost their lives. The package replaces crumbling bridges and other infrastructure, not just in Seattle, but throughout the state… structures whose collapse would not only present a physical danger, but would inflict great economic harm to local communities. The package includes many local projects that local community leaders have spent great time and effort working with their legislators to obtain, and to repeal this package would nix funding for the foreseeable future.
No, we shouldn’t stop trying to refute common misconceptions about the tax side of the equation… we need to repeat and repeat that even with this increase the state gas tax will be at historically average levels in real dollars, and that transportation revenues do indeed flow from the wealthiest, most populated counties towards the rest of the state. But as George Lakeoff argues, if the facts don’t fit the frame, the facts are discarded and the frame stands.
The only way to defeat I-912 is to soften the Yes vote by making voters understand the very real, local transportation projects that they are being asked to repeal. And the only way to achieve this effectively and believably is if voters hear it from their own local media. They need to hear the personal stories of neighbors who lost friends and family on dangerous roads, or of local farmers and other businesses who depend on the roads for the efficient flow of goods to port and market. They need to hear from local business and civic leaders as to how these projects benefit their community.
If this initiative is simply about repealing a tax, then of course it will pass. Nobody likes to pay taxes. But if this initiative is about the local projects that this tax buys, then the transportation package has the opportunity to survive a repeal based on its merits, rather than just anti-government rhetoric.
So to my friends in the media I say it is all up to you. Instead of just covering the politics behind I-912, dig into the package and explain to your audiences the local impact of repeal. I’ll stick my neck out and predict that if you do your job, the initiative will fail. Here is your opportunity to prove me wrong.
Goldy–
Why is it the “Media’s” job to perpetuate the lies of our elected officials and their out-of-control and incompetent Bureaucrats.
It’s the media’s job to present, fairly and objectively, both sides of the Gas Tax argument. It’s the Media’s job to present a historical record of where past Gas Tax dollars have been spent….and to dig & scratch to validate. It’s the Media’s job to hold those in power accountable.
Before you get off on what the media needs to do, you might want to take a long, hard look at the Society of Professional Journalist CODE OF ETHICS Goldy. They are supposed to hold those in power accountable….not be cheerleaders.
This Gas Tax will be repealed because our elected officials FAILED to present a clear and convincing case that:
1) This tax increase was necessary.
2) A detailed, independently auditing summary of where past dollars were spent.
3) A list of priority projects that taxpayers agree with.
4) A financing scheme that was dishonest by understating the true cost of these projects, underfunding them from the get-go to get them started.
The Citizens of Washington State outside of Seattle DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT, want to pay for the beautification of the Seattle Waterfront so Paul Allen and his cronies can make billions on the real estate values. OBSCENE. Beautification and asthetics should be funded by Seattle LEFTIST PINHEADS only.
Nice try at smoke-and-mirrors LEFTIST PINHEADS….NO SALE!
Yeah, you will find the Highway, Bridge and Road contractors backing this mega-tax increase. I wonder why?? However, rank-and-file citizens see thru this wretched scheme.
Fire the WSDOT and other morons who tried to scam us, go back to the drawing board with Transportation Only projects and get real. But first, let’s see some INDEPENDENT and complete accountability for PAST dollars….how much has gone into planning, where and what wild goose chases have hundreds of millions been pissed away on.
How about starting with the Hood Canal Graving Yard debacle over in Pt. Angeles where $60 million++ was pissed away planning for a graving yard to be build on an Indian Village site….when the information on this Indian Village site was readily available on the Internet!!! Great due diligence, huh Goldy??!! O
Oh and Goldy, no one has yet to be fired because of this $60 million debacle. Circle the wagons and try to do better?????
My Ass!
Goldy I’d refine your post to the “local media in Eastern Washington”. But even if they were completely against the repeal then I don’t think it would matter.
Hardly anybody over there wants to pay a tax on the weight of their pickup truck or any other vehicle even with the dangerous roads. It’s a bad struggle to make ends meet for a lot of people over there.
This isn’t an anti-roads initiative, it’s an accountability initiative.
How many more Narrows Bridge/Monorail do we need to have before we throw more money the way of WSDOT before we ask for some accountability?
Is that asking to much?
Cynical @1,
It’s the media’s job to truthfully explain a complicated issue to their audience. All I’m saying is that if they do that, I-912 stands a good chance of being defeated.
For an example of how people need to be educated….
John @2,
I-912 does not repeal the weight fees, only the gas tax.
wow, misconceptions here, even with all the facts folks have put out on this blog.
Are people really that close-minded that they won’t even read?
Goldy,
I would love the media to step up and explain things. This would be a double no-brainer if the media would expose the waste and stupidity we are already paying for!!
Why are we running a rail down Rainer and NOT fixing 520 and the Viaduct? Maybe indeed we cannot do everything, but doggone it, our stupid transportation people piss away scarce money on bonehead projects.
And to beat an old drum; if 520 is a $2bb project, and carries what 100,000 cars a day (some big number); why are we spending $1.2 billion Sounder that carries about 1500 a day.
The message for libs, and state central afficianadoes is, “learn to set priorities, and spend accordingly”. This anti tax vote is really a vote about that.
John–
Goldy could care less about ANYBODY outside of LEFTIST PINHEADVILLE. They are “beneath” him and the other “Progressives” (who seem to be Progressing toward extermination).
And Brent…Goldy has created an exemption for LEFTIST PINHEAD accountability….and their boneheaded “causes”.
Brent, the legislature DID address the accountability issue in this package. That’s just an EXCUSE bandied by the no-taxes-no-matter-what crowd.
Mr. Cynical, you’re forgetting something … namely, this transportation package was passed by a majority of the legislature consisting of both Democrats and Republicans … and those legislators didn’t get elected by being stupid or out of touch with their constituents. This bill passed because it addressed real needs and concerns of citizens in their districts. To listen to your ravings, one might think our legislature came from outer space and nobody supports them; but it is you, not they, operating under delusion.
Goldy, I think you missed the boat by putting the onus on the media. It is the legislators who voted for the transportation package who should be out there stumping their districts. After all, they voted for it because they perceived their constituents want it and their districts will benefit. They should be the primary cheerleaders for getting these projects built.
It would be a shame if our state’s transportation system ends up getting balkanized by selfish partisans who won’t any support transportation spending except that which directly benefits their own communities (preferably at someone else’s expense). Fortunately, our legislature was more far-sighted than that. However, if the initiative passes because some narrow-minded voters take the attitude “no how, no way” toward paying for infrastructure located in King County, then fairness demands addressing these needs with gas tax revenues paid by King County residents and we should insist to the legislature they stop exporting King County gas taxes to the “No Way, No How” counties. Redirect those revenues to King County’s needs and give the NWNH counties authority to enact local option MVET and gas taxes for projects in their own counties — let ’em pay for their own roads or projects, or do without, but make ’em stop sucking on the King County tit for their road money. It’s only fair.
To illustrate the hypocrisy of Mr. Cynical and his ilk, in a recent thread I asked Mr. C. if he would support spending KC’s gas tax revenues for the AWV and 520 bridge — yes or no. Mr. Cynical’s answer was only if the GMA is repealed. Of course he knows that’s a deal breaker, and of course GMA has NOTHING to do with the AWV and 520 bridge. Chalk up Mr. Cynical as one of those who wants to leech off King County taxpayers while opposing their needs. What a low-life! We should make fuckers like him get a passport and pay a $50 toll every time they want to enter King County! If he never visits our fair city again, it will be too soon! Ship him back to Serbia where he belongs!!!
Goldy,
As you are clearly beginning to campaign against this, do your tirades constitute an advertisement?
above: I think I wanted to say “parochials” instead of “partisans” to better convey my meaning
Reply to 9
No more so than your tirades, but if so, so what? If Goldy spends 5% of his blog on this issue, and his server space costs 10 bucks a month, then he should report a 50-cent expenditure to the PDC right? I think they would consider that de minimis, prr. The costs of running a blog are not quite in the same league as the costs of running a radio station with six-figure-salary staff like Carlson and Wilbur. It’s a non-issue, prr, so go screw yourself.
Roger; this is too easy
What projects does this tax fund? That is, nobody knows the 520 or viaduct costs, so how does a general tax increase help, except to pour more money into a black hole.
Rbabit @ 8,
No, once again, you are missing the boat.
I-912 is about a runaway, arrogant, political system that has chosen to ignore the voters once again. You correctly state that the majority of the legislature suuported this. That is to say the simple majority, not the 2/3rds majority that we have establsihed.
Christine (blame her underlings) Gregoire has once again attempted to steal not only the electio process in this state, but also they way that taxes are increased in this state.
I-912, will pass and by huge numbers.
Secondly,
“It would be a shame if our state’s transportation system ends up getting balkanized by selfish partisans who won’t any support transportation spending except that which directly benefits their own communities (preferably at someone else’s expense).”
You mean like the monorail?
Rabbit @ 11,
For a lawyer, you are a bit of a moron.
He should be paying fair market value for advertising.
What does banner advertisimnet cost at Seattle Weekly?
HA HA, I-912 fail? ROFLMAO!!!!
LEGAL ACTION PENDING AGAINST ANDY STEPHENSON’S TORMENTERS
According to William Rivers Pitt, who runs the web site Truthout.org, “the evidence of actions taken with the direct intent to harm a dying man, has been collected exhaustively. The names of the prime movers behind these attacks are known. Legal actions, both civil and criminal, are in the works.”
Pitt commented, “It has been said that you can best know a person by knowing his enemies. In Andy’s case, his enemies rank among the foulest, most despicable sub-humans ever to draw breath. A small cadre of graveyard rats endeavored to convince the world that Andy was faking his illness, that the money raised to offset his medical expenses was lining his perfectly healthy pockets. They constructed websites dedicated to this premise, and they spammed dozens of blogs with their spurious claims. They deliberately interfered with the PayPal donations process organized by Andy’s friends, causing a delay in payment to the hospital which blew Andy off the surgical rotation for many critical days.”
Pitt went on to describe the hateful actions of those who hounded Stephenson into his grave following his death: ‘We need to start pushing a story about how Andy Stephenson faked his own death for insurance reasons,’ wrote one such ghoul on the conservative forum FreeRepublic.com, where much of this horrifying behavior was organized. … A few even pushed the idea that Andy had faked his death and was lounging on a beach somewhere.”
As Pitt observed, names have been taken, lawyers contacted, and legal actions are in the works. I say hooray! Personally I hope Andy Stephenson’s mother ends up owning Free Republic and all of its assets, and all of its owner’s assets. Justice demands nothing less.
And I echo Pitt’s sentiment: “I feel that those responsible for this should be forced to dig Andy Stephenson’s grave. I believe they should be forced to spend a day with his mother, who now mourns a son after having lost a daughter. I believe they should fear the wrath of the God in Whose name they so often cloak their deeds.”
Have a shovel and start digging, Freeper Assholes. See ya in Hell.
For Pitt’s complete article see http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/071105Y.shtml
Righton-
“And to beat an old drum; if 520 is a $2bb project, and carries what 100,000 cars a day (some big number); why are we spending $1.2 billion Sounder that carries about 1500 a day.”
Extremely good point I’d like to hear Goldy try to defend that. I don’t doubt that he will, since Goldy is equal opportunity supporter of wasteful causes big and small.
Goldy; would you dare commit to…
Us libs will support 1 project each 10 yrs, with total cost about $2billion. We won’t overlay old $2bb requests with new ones.”
given that, how would you spend your $2bb, and include ST. I’d spend my $2bb on 520.
Reply to 12
Bullshit. If you weren’t too fucking lazy to read, you could find out exactly what projects are funded.
Reply to 13
Bullshit. I-912 is about arrogant “No Way, No How” parochials get carried away with delusions they can dictate what happens in this state. I hope the voters have enough sense to send them packing. There’s hope — after all, when was the last time a Tim Eyman initiative actually passed at the polls? I can’t remember, it’s been so long ago.
Reply to 14
You are a fucking moron! How can Goldy pay himself for “advertising” on his own blog when he’s already paying the blog’s bills (all $10 a month of them)? Goldy should be charging you by the word for spewing your crap on HIS web site — but he doesn’t — and he doesn’t censor you, either. You’re a fucking freeloader who uses Goldy’s web site for free to disseminate your nonsense.
Lots of “gubment” and union hack jobs depend on the spending of billions here. [hehe] Atlas has Shugged.
Rabbit @ 16
“And I echo Pitt’s sentiment: “I feel that those responsible for this should be forced to dig Andy Stephenson’s grave. I believe they should be forced to spend a day with his mother, who now mourns a son after having lost a daughter. I believe they should fear the wrath of the God in Whose name they so often cloak their deeds.””
I thought we lived in a community that seperated church and state?
Andy was a Political activist, therefore this statement should be removed as it violates the constitution.
Rannit @ 14?
How can Goldy Pay himself?
I don’t know, how can your neighbor pay himself rent to store his own boat?
Also, Libs, I am curious, If I burn a picture of Andy, is that me excercising my rights in the same manner burning a flag would?
I-912: Seeing how there were over 420,000 sigs in a mere month, it’s not gonna fail. I am confident. The People have spoken and come November, lil Crissy and Co. will learn a lesson they won’t soon forget. Thanks.
Reply to 21
If a businessman leases commercial land for $10,000 a month and uses 10% of the footage for personal use (e.g., storing a boat), he should not deduct $10,000 of lease expenses when computing the taxes owed on his business income. He is entitled to expense only $9,000 a month of lease costs on his business tax return, because the other $1,000 is personal use. Alternatively, he could pay fair market space rent out of his own pocket to his business, in which case he could expense the entire $10,000 and pay taxes on the rental income — exactly the same as if he were renting 10% of the footage to a third party in an arms-length transaction. But if he uses 10% of the footage for personal use, and expenses 100% of the lease cost on his tax return, and reports no rental income for his personal use of 10% of the commercial lot, then he is committing tax fraud.
goldy….how could you possibly hope that the “media” will “do it’s job”???
i thought, according to you and the other lefties that abound here that the media was all right wing and conservative.
so which is it?
this will sail through and get passed by the voters. something you, and the other we-know-better-than-you-peeps liberals keep forgetting is that the people get to decide these things.
until of course seattle makes that illegal too….and then just you and several of your closest commie friends will get to do it.
cause we all know that you closet elitists know better than the rest of us.
Rabbit,
Yes, But Goldy has used his blog as a form a monor celebrity in this area.
As such, he is given access to writitng gigs, speaking, and in the future he is ambitiously wishing for a TV or a radio show.
he should be paying the state reveues based off of his Blog site,
and roger…get a grip man. that lawsuit will be tossed out as frivolous so fast it will make even your tiny head spin.
yeah it was sad andy died. so why didn’t his liberal friends just take out mortagages on their houses to pay for the surgery. or better yet…why didn’t he pay for it himself?
too busy being an activist to earn a living? where was george soros?
Reply to 23
It’s a lesson you won’t soon forget, either, when you drive in Seattle traffic a few years from now. Without the Alaska Way Viaduct, it’s likely to take several hours to get from Everett to Tacoma, or vice versa — while burning gas and wearing out your car’s engine in stop-and-go traffic. Without the 520 bridge, you’d better figure on a 2 hour commute between Bellevue and Seattle. There’s an old saying — penny wise, pound foolish. You and everyone else who comes into Seattle for any reason will pay through the ass if these projects aren’t built.
27
Dream on, ghost — tortious interference with a business relationship is an actionable tort. Obviously you’re not a lawyer. If you’re one of the scumbugs who was involved, I suggest you get one — you’re going to need him.
Reply to 27
By your logic, you should be paying the state revenues for mouthing off on Goldy’s web site. At least he’s paying his own expenses, which is more than you can say. Fucking freeloader …
Rabbit,
Nothing will come of this court case, not even a ripple.
prr @ 21
William Pitt isn’t the “state,” jackass! He’s a private individual. Where the fuck were you when God passed out brains?
32
The fact you say something doesn’t make it true, prr …
Rabbit,
@ 33 Again, this is a political site, we can’t mention God here, that would make me feel Violated.
@ 31, It’s the right wing bloggers that Give Goldy any kind of impact on this site. if it weren’t for us the rest of you sheep would just be following him around saying, yep, Bus is evil, Rossi Lost, let’s raise taxes.
@ 29…. how about we fund things without stealing from the tax payers first?
roger…a “business relationship”???? oh that’s rich. begging for activists is hardly a business relationship and you don’t have to be an attorney to know when YOU are full of it.
a real attorney, who is an officer of the court after all, would hardly be on web sites day and night making silly threats like you just did….and do all the time.
not only would i not have interfered, i would have helped andy if i had known. which is alot more than you could say if someone that wasn’t in your “tribe” got sick.
you really are just too silly and pompous for words aren’t you?
all bluster, no substance……..
this is exactly why seattle is such a joke and why you people will never be in power again anywhere but the joke that IS seattle.
and roger…how much did you give to andy to help him…since you want to keep on harping on this? did you give him your assets? no? why am i not surprised.
kinda like john who stiffed the hospital when he used the emergency room for a non-emergency and then didn’t pay. but he is still online typing on his computer…so i guess he can’t be that broke, right?
so how much i’m-pretending-to-be-a-lawyer roger? how much did you give?
do you think we should all sue you for not selling your house to pay for his surgery since you are so hot under the collar about this?
Mr, Cynical
Quote
“Nice try at smoke-and-mirrors LEFTIST PINHEADS….NO SALE!
Yeah, you will find the Highway, Bridge and Road contractors backing this mega-tax increase. I wonder why?? However, rank-and-file citizens see thru this wretched scheme.”
I wonder why conservative lobbyists in DC support massive military spending? You must have a problem with all the war profiteering that’s going on, huh? Have you demanded to see where to 200 billion in Iraq has gone?
You are a hypocrite and a joke.
herbalizer…i think that we all support the military spending because it keeps us all safe. that kinda falls in the DUH category.
as far as being worried about the viaduct falling down…i have to admit, that doesn’t keep me[or anyone but you guys] up at night. they could have fixed it before.or why don’t they just ask billy gates for the money?
Still I wonder… if the estimated 8 million vehicles on the road use just one gallon of gas a day and the tax is .28 cents, that’s $2,240,000 a day or $8.176 BILLION a year. The government is either incapable or unwilling to account for that money and the media has no interest in investigating the matter.
I assume that legislature added the emergency clause to the bill so they could keep the public in the dark and out of the process. That can be expected, but I don’t understand why so many liberals who claim to support choice don’t want us voting on this.
Roger; maybe the library lets you make stupid threats, but we’re not bullied.
The $$ in the gas tax is loosely defined, that is, not at all tied down. Example; 520; they don’t even know if its 4 lane replacement or 6 lane replacement. the 2 vary by a billion or so.
So how do you know your tax is earmarked, and pays 100% of the cost
WRONG buddy; its just a tax, to help pay for some more works, that are undefined. Would you pay Freddie the Contractor $10,000 for some bathroom project, without knowing if its a toiler or a full bathroom??
What I am really interested in hearing about were whatever happened to all of the mid-level managers that were to be laid off in the State Government?
That was to have saved us millions, yet, (wow, what a asurprise) no-one has been let go. In fact, i would guess that they’ve recently been given a raise.
prr; they are waiting for the Bill Huenkens…get demoted sideways pay packages…
@40
We don’t mind voting at all,
but the questionable practices (free organization, planning, & Promotion on a top tier radio station, 6 hours a day) make it questionable whether it should even be on the ballot.
That being said, we don’t mind it being voted for… as long as people hear the truth, not the insanely partisan propaganda you whackjobs like spewing.
Wait, not even partisan (since Reps and business supported the increase), just insane. All we want is the people to understand the truth, rather than your insanity.
@42
Once again, prr throws in a red herring that is totally irrelevant
But I guess that surprises nobody.
How is that totally irrelevant?
We are discussing budgets correct?
RE-ELECT ROSSI
Windie @ 40-
OK, Give us all the truth. Help us understand. The tax has been at .28 cents for quite some time. So, where has the $8 BILLION a year gone? Do you know? Explain my insanity for asking a simple question.
Tell me how we got in the shape we’re in as far as the poor condition of our highways today.
we’re discussing I-912, not firing middle managers.
hows that?
Maybe the media will do it with I-901 too. I’m sure many non-smokers are happy until a year from now when they here the sucking sound as their taxes go up yet again to make up the shortfalls when them darn smokers flock to tribal facilities and spend their money there. Oh and maybe the media will look into the new 60 cents a pack which was all a ruse to funnel money to the tribes since they keep all the excise taxes collected on cigarettes on tribal lands.
If only 20% of the states smokers purchase at tribal facilities the tribes will rake in around 100 million a year and this doesn’t count the gaming revenue, Meanwhile Senator Prentice will once again say we need to raise taxes again because of revenue shortfalls.
There, that should keep the media busy.
Baynative:
Encarta says the total population of Washington was approximately 6,200,000. Take away the millions too young to drive and I can’t figure out where you got 8 million cars on the road.
Also, $2,240,000 per day equals $817 million, not 8.176 billion.
Finally, to those of you complaining about the monorail and Sound Transit, those are local projects operated by agencies independent of DOT and those funds aren’t available for highways, because the voters decided to tax themselves for those projects.
baynative@48
We’ve been over this so many times, just look in the archives of this very blog.
Just look around.
If this initiative is simply about repealing a tax, then of course it will pass.
No, this initiative is about arrogance of the government to ignore the will of the people, about elitists who think they know better than the people what is right for them and how best to spend the money they earn.
I predict the initiaive will pass. As Beretta used to say “you can take that to the bank (just not to the one Ron Simms runs with his 99.8% accuracy rate)”
Next session I fully expect the fascists to propose eliminating the initiative process.
Windie.
Are you a Mid level manager with the State?
prr @ 21
“I thought we lived in a community that seperated church and state? Andy was a Political activist, therefore this statement should be removed as it violates the constitution.”
WTF???? This is one of the stooopider things I have ever seen you write. Time to take a mail-order civics course?
@wayne
Nice catch on the math error. Off by a factor of 10 sure helps his case, tho!
prr @ 32
“Nothing will come of this court case, not even a ripple. “
The stoopid element of the right wing doen’t have much of a track record on predicting court case outcomes. . . .
prr @ 35
“Again, this is a political site, we can’t mention God here, that would make me feel Violated.”
Stoopid, stooopid, stooooopid!!
prr-@ 42
“… whatever happened to all of the mid-level managers that were to be laid off in the State Government?”
Oh boy!!! I’ve got your answer to that one. THERE HAVEN’T BEEN ANY LAYOFFS! It was all smoke and mirrors. I wrote several letters to Oly HR, and finally, Gregoire’s office. It was explained to me that the matter was “directive” and that department managers would assess their budgets and employ necessary cost saving over the next two years, if necessary.
Windie – nice dodge, NOT
“We’ve benn over this” doesn’t mean this has been proven. You sent me a link to a government website linked off KeepWashingtonRolling that didn’t add up. Even the folks on your side said they weren’t sure if the data was computed in Millions or Thousands, and even then it represented only PENNIES on the $8 Billion they are collecting every year at the pump.
Come on, back up what you say. Just show us some real numbers that prove what is coming in and where it is going.
righton @ 41
“So how do you know your tax is earmarked, and pays 100% of the cost”
Holy shit, the stoopid brigade of the right-wingers is out in full force today, all pumped up on their stoopid pills.
Righton, READ THE FUCKING LEGISLATION before you make suck idiotic statements!
DJ @ 55, 56, 57 & 58
So you are saying that the seperation of church and state is an idiotic court case sponsored by the left?
Wow, you and I agree on something
@ 4
Wow. I stand corrected. Does anyone know how much the weight fees are supposed to raise as opposed to the gas tax?
pbj @ 53
“Next session I fully expect the fascists to propose eliminating the initiative process. “
I doubt it. The fascists will be too busy trying to pass legislation to kill Muslims, Jews, and Hindus in the name of national security.
dj@61
per your paper, the times
“The package raises the gas tax by 3 cents a gallon the first year, 3 cents the second year, 2 cents the third year and 1.5 cents in the fourth. It includes $2 billion for the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle, $972 million for Interstate 405 on the Eastside, and $500 million toward replacing the Highway 520 bridge over Lake Washington. ”
But nowhere is there a contract or agreed thing this money goes to…right….THEY STILL HAVENT DECIDED if 520 is 4 lanes or 6. So what kind of package is this??? And $500mm is the state portion, so you don’t even have the full cost embedded.
Your anger would bother me if you had a clue.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/
where our money is going, project by project.
Is the internet new to you, or what?
Rhetorical question of course, you’d spew bile than actually look up information
me@66
forgot this too:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/accoun.....tebook.pdf
look at page 7 of the pdf
now why do we have to do all the actual research again? are you folks just lazy?
prr @ 62
“So you are saying that the seperation of church and state is an idiotic court case sponsored by the left?”
No. I am not saying that. I am saying that you are really stoopid!
righton @ 65
The Seattle Times is NOT THE LEGISLATION, you fucking idiot! Read the legislation.
Oh, and righton, I don’t own the Seattle Times. I’ve never even subscribed to it.
http://www.reelectrossi.com/
more offpoint rhetoric by Prr: KING OF THE NONSEQUITER!
thanks DJ and other bus drivers…
This is from your own DOT Note the last sentence, then feel free to apologize…
Financial Information
The Transportation “Nickel” Funding Package passed by the legislature in 2003 allocated about $52 million to be distributed to the project over the next four bienniums (through 2011). Current available funds (displayed in the bottom table) will pay for initial design, some right-of-way purchases and environmental work. More money is still needed to complete design, right-of-way purchases and construction. The total project costs depend on the alternative chosen.
4-Lane Alternative – $1.7 – 2.0 billion
6-Lane Alternative – $2.6 – 2.9 billion
prr @ 70,
Hey, now we agree on something.
Reelect Rossi Real Estate Agent of the year!
Or is that Real Estate Broker? Or is that Real Estate Secret Operative? Gosh. . . I am so confused. . . .
righton @ 65:
It costs a lot of money to decide what kind of bridge will replace 520. Money that would be wasted if there won’t be any money to pay for the replacement after it is planned. So it makes sense to make sure funding is in place before you spend a lot of money on the engineering work and the inevitable political process that goes with it.
Dj-
Where is your intelligence today everytime you open your mouth I imagine a child saying “your a poo-poo head”, Really your IQ is showing today.
You wingers are thinking your lives are going to be so much better if you prevent a 9 cents or so increase over 4 years off a gallon of gas.
If oil goes up to $100/barrel by the end of the year like some say it is then a reasonable increase to fix the roads after so much neglect is going to be the least of your problems.
Yes, I’m new to internet and government accounting. But, If you will help me learn I’ll engage without any continued confusion.
The page you offered shows “All combined projects from 2005 -2021 as $17,076.6 (In millions)” Does that mean that all the projects budget at $17 thousand – Million? That would be about $170 Billion, I think. Am I right?
Then on page 4 there is a chart of “Nickel” projects. I guess those are being done with the extra Nickle or 5 cent tax that was added in ’03.
On that chart line #7 shows ‘Park Entrance- Turn Lanes’ at 196 (again, in MILLIONS) … Does that mean a park entrance and turn lanes cost the taxpayers $196 MILLION dollars?
righton @ 72
“The Transportation “Nickel” Funding Package passed by the legislature in 2003 allocated about $52 million to be distributed to the project over the next four bienniums (through 2011).”
Waaaaa Haaaa Haaa! More idiocy. Now you are really confused between the Nickel Package and the newer gas tax.
Please, please, please. Read the fucking legislation, you imbecile!
When you have read the legislation, in its entirety, come back and we can have a reasonable debate. You may still not like the way funds are allocated, but at least you should be able to discuss things with the facts under you belt.
DJ; I wasn’t talking about the tax portion. I said from the beginning, “how do you know if the tax is good, if you don’t know the cost of the project” I know 520 very well, and even pasted DOT own “we don’t know the cost yet”. Must be the fumes…
I know when I bid a job fixing my bathroom, I don’t tell the contractor I will pay him $10,000 unless I know the bill in total is 10,000 or perhaps more, but I’ll know the total cost before I decide its a good deal.
tools @ 75
“Where is your intelligence today everytime you open your mouth I imagine a child saying “your a poo-poo head”, Really your IQ is showing today.”
Can’t say. I am too busy laughing my ass off at the stupid things people are saying on this thread. . .
On, and tools, you haven’t said anything stupid in this thread yet, but just in case you do, here is my pre-emptive strike: “you are shit head!” :-)
http://www.reelectrossi.com/
and DJ; did you figure out which design wins at 520? Montlake citizens suggested new tall, beautiful design (not reflected in DOT estimates).. Wierd, we thus don’t know where the bridge goes, what it does, nor what it costs.
I’m less an expert on Viaduct, but I think its also equally undefined.
Of course not defining the project is the stuff Wash trans is famous for (e.g. Sound transit, or perhaps they overdefined and now that they are underdelivering…whoops..)
The primary reason I signed I-912 and got 47 other signatures is because Seattle and King County, the primary beneficiaries of the 33% gas tax increase, have FAILED to raise their own taxes to pay for the Viaduct and 520. When the insane tax and spenders in Seattle (eg. Monorail) and King County (eg Sound Transit) pony up to the bar and raise at least half the money for the Viaduct and 520 themselves, then I may reconsider voting for I-912. But of course, that won’t happen becuse the anti-car mass-transit-only crowd will not support any local tax that builds highways.
And on another note, when some Islamic jihadist blows up one of Sound Transits beloved trains, we will of course be told it only happened because we did not spend enought money securing the insecruable.
vote for the prr transportation modernization package!
Ignorance is bliss, eh, righton?
Reply to 83
If you’d been paying attention, Bob — which you haven’t — you would know the gas tax increase pays less than half of the cost of AWV and 520 replacement, and the rest will have to come from local taxes and/or tolls.
By the way, Bob, the next time your county needs road improvements don’t ask for King County gas tax revenues, because that money won’t be available anymore.
JC Bob @ 83 – Blow up one of our trains? What, do you live in constant fear of terrorist activity? Don’t be scared. If they blow it up, we’ll build another one. As for the referendum, we need to do away with referendums. As you know, we hire Legislators to make our laws. The Romans discovered they could vote themselves bread and circuses. If referendums are such a good idea, let’s make one that says the State gives everyone 1 Billion Dollars. Eh? Wattayasay.
Still looking for the cost of that new bridge (that you guys want to sell us suckers)…. how much will it be?
PS: Facts seem to have chased Baynative off. Pity.
Viaduct, from Wsdot page (note the disclaimer)
Amount Required to Complete Additional Project Stage(s)* $2,008,020,999
Estimated Total Project Cost from Spring 2004–$4,188,000,000
Cost estimates for recent additions to the project scope have not yet been evaluated or included at this time
Roger Rabbit@16
God Damn man, stop beating the fucking drum, you are giving me a headache!
of course, Righton, you know and I do that alot of that money is intended to be supplied by the city and county, not the state.
windie; Its not the subtraction part to find other sources for the extra 2billion…, its the fact the price is unbounded!! Even WSDOT says they don’t know
ghost @ 37
You freaking backstabber. Your a real looney tune or you’re dyslexic because your reading comprehension is second grade!
I did NOT stiff the hospital I went to. My insurance company did!
The hospital kept me for observation because of my family history and a heart murmur I’ve had since birth!
If you think my visit there wasn’t medically necessary then you try having a family and experiencing the chest pains I did!
It’s either utter arrogance or complete disconnection with reality which prompts rightwing nutcases to rant about the gas tax being an example of our legislators “violating the will of the people.” How in the hell do these guys have a clue about what the “will of the people” of this state is? They’re so stuck in their fact-resistant ideology that they apparently don’t recognize that this state is pretty damned liberal; rightwing Republican politicians just don’t do very well here. Conservative dogma is not popular here. I have no doubt that if Washingtonians take the time to educate themselves about the gas tax, they will act as adults and defeat I-912. Rightwing ranting and tax paranoia usually do not get much traction here.
Proud lefty; how’d the will of the people get transmorphed into the current Sound Transit; price doubled, and distance of rail fell in half (exaggerating, you know the point; we didn’t get what we wanted).
@97
didn’t think sound tranist was the state…
Apples and Oranges?
@96
Thats the best part! A surprising number of Rep. legislators supported the increase too. This isn’t so much as a party thing as a ‘whackjob-KVI-slave’ thing.
fire_one-
You are obviously ignorant to the what a referendum is, I think that you are meaning Initiative instead. A referendum is a way for the people to not have to suffer through an elected officials bad idea(s) for a full term.
anyone read this?
http://www.nwprogressive.org/w.....ed-if.html
based on the PI article here:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....tax09.html
“Ed Murray, state House transportation committee chairman, predicted that if the initiative passes, “the result will be another initiative, to only spend transportation taxes in the counties where they are raised.” Or, he said, it could be attempted by legislation.”
Kinda sad in a way, they’re totally killing themselves with their own ignorance… and their ‘leaders’ don’t give a damn, willing to milk it for some small political gain.
Windie: I don’t give a rip who’s doing the taxing/spending. I think 100% of us in Seattle area bear the costs of both. To your precise issue; will of the people; ok, what is the will of the people for 520? Elect legislators to do a good job, or accede to strong arming by Montlake and Eastside communities?
All – Thank you for the correction. The point is that these Initiatives are still not what we need, nor are they good for us. Sure we can pass initiative after initiative for what we want. In the end you end up with and NIMBY state like California. We hire the Legislators to decide what is right. We need to get the Initiative declared un-constitutional. The founding fathers knew that an Initiative based government could create what they referred to as the “tyranny of the minority”
I’ll be honest Righton, I don’t know enough about the specifics of the 520 project to comment.
To answer your rhetorical question, of course we elect legislators to do a good job.
Windie; all WSDOT page, and of course Seattle Times references Montlake desire to beutify etc the proposed bridge. Just means in classis Seattle style, nobody can jam through something, but then again nothing gets done economically. More expensive and longer is the rule
pasted from recent Wsdot on the Montlake meetings…
The proposed “high-level” bridge and SR 520/Pacific Street interchange plans. View enlarged image (jpg 598 kb).
fire_one –
While I agree with your “Tyranny of the minority”(that is what a democracy opens the door for)statement, I feel that the government has absolutely no right to say we can’t have a referendum on a poor decision.
That is why Initiatives still have their place.
All – Problem is it always ends up going too far. One of the biggest problems with California is lack of power generation capability. To make up for it, they bid for power generated in our state. Result is higher energy prices in our state. Why does California have inadequate power generation capability…. the Initiative. (just one example – there are many others)
righton
You still have no idea about what you are talking about. Read the legislation, you ignorant fuck. You will learn (among other things) that the 520 bridge and Alaska Way Viaduct are not even mentioned!
You don’t understand what the legislation is about, how the revenue is divided up, what proportion goes to each category of need, or how the money will be accounted for.
You are mindlessly blowing smoke—you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.
fire_one – re:106
How could the initiative process possibly influence California’s energy?
fire_one:
“Why does California have inadequate power generation capability…”
One reason and one reason, only – Environmental Road blocks!
Baynative @ 108
“How could the initiative process possibly influence California’s energy?”
Huh? Is this a trick question, or did you mean to ask something else?
Obviously, the initiative process can possibly influence California’s energy process in an infinite number of ways.
There have been at least 5 California initiatives on energy- topics. There have been many more that deal with the environment.
One of the things that I think is worthwhile is to talk about WSDOT’s performance. They just finished the Access Downtown project in Bellevue that tore down/rebuilt three overpasses, widening the roadway in preparation of the eventual widening of 405. They finished the project one year ahead of schedule and $25 million under budget.
DOT has so far completed 12 nickel projects. 8 were early, 1 late, 3 on time. 6 were under budget, 1 over, and 5 on budget.
For once, we have an agency who is taking the tax money it is given and building projects that are by and large finished early and under budget. Isn’t this exactly the type of performance we should be celebrating by our government?
What exactly do people want DOT to do? Build roads for nothing in no time?
Baynative @ 109
‘“Why does California have inadequate power generation capability…” One reason and one reason, only – Environmental Road blocks!’
No, that is not the only reason. Apparently it is the reason that you dislike. . . .
dj – you’ll have to enlighten me on those ” 5 California initiatives on energy- topics.”
I lived in California for the last 20 years and don’t remember them. But, I know you’ve got FACTS to back up your statement.
Bay and dj – This is from the Sacramento Bee. Currently there is an initiative on the ballot which, in my opinion would overall reduce Californias power procurement capability. The reasons are varies, “non-utilities produce power with higher emissions, etc” Bottom line for California: Less power. Where will they make it up?
From the SacBee
“A power-generating trade group sued state election officials Wednesday, arguing an electricity initiative should be yanked from the Nov. 8 ballot because it is improperly drawn.
The initiative attempts to nudge California back toward a more regulated electric industry by sharply limiting retail power sales by non-utilities. It allows those already buying power this way to continue with their special “direct access” contracts, but prohibits expansion of the now-frozen program. It also makes numerous other changes to energy law.”
Now I am not saying I am in favor either way, just that these decisions need to be made by the Legislature, not the citizens directly. The Initiative or Referendum was not the way the founding father imagined this system working (I imagine).
Cheesy Chucky @ 92
Sounds like a personal problem to me.
Bax @ 111
“For once, we have an agency who is taking the tax money it is given and building projects that are by and large finished early and under budget. Isn’t this exactly the type of performance we should be celebrating by our government? “
Thanks for making this point. I’ll add that Washington is currently ranked the 3rd best managed state from an independent study of all 50 states. The report makes for interesting reading. It can be found here
– Backers of the initiative: Citizens for a Better California
– Those opposed: Various power generation groups
Who wins? Who loses?
I believe in paying for what we need. I believe in paying taxes for essential services. I believe in erecting power generation stations for needed electrictity. I don’t know if that makes me an R or a D, but I also don’t believe in giving anything the State wants to them. But we have to let the Legislators decide, and kick them out if they fail.
California is DESPARATELY short of power. They need a crash program to build power plants. Will they get them? Who will pay if they don’t?
This whole thing reminds me of a decade or so back when we were asked to vote on a new stadium and funding for Seattle Public Schools. The schools passed, the stadium failed yet Oly decided for us that a stadium (hell 2 of ’em) were more important, and yet our schools are now under-funded.
So does it really matter if it gets repealed or not? Since the majority voted it in, they’ll find a way to make their will. They’ve done it before.
Not to mention, I-912 looks more like a sore looser Righty initiative, than a real honest-to-goodness make Oly listen to us movement.
fire_one:
You are right, I think in taking a cautious position on how decisions with this much impact should be made. In reading the clip you posted, I can just imagine how complex the actual wording will be. Most lawyers won’t be able to understand it. But, that’s part of the point, isn’t it.
It seems,though, that we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. We can take the initiative process away from uneducated and uninformed citizens and maintain the decision making in the hands of the well connected, politically influenced and sometimes out right corrupt legislatures.
So, what’s better? For government fans, it’s Olympia of course. But being one that takes that “Question authority” bumper sticker to heart, I’m not so willing.
Baynative @ 113
“dj – you’ll have to enlighten me on those ” 5 California initiatives on energy- topics.”
Go to google and try something like California Initiative History for specifics on the initiatives. Here you can find a summary of initiative topics through 1995.
“I lived in California for the last 20 years and don’t remember them. But, I know you’ve got FACTS to back up your statement.”
I am a California native—as in actually being born there—but I have not lived there for a long time.
114
Sounds to me like energy producers are trying to fight competition from non-utility power producers in order to keep their own prices high.
At any rate, initiatives and environmentalists weren’t responsible for California’s 2001 energy crisis. Illegal market manipulation by Enron and others was.
Bay – I understand. I think the first thing we need to do is take our government (both national and state) back from Corporate America. We need to stop the revolving door from the Government to Corporate America. As long as Corporate America can buy whatever law they want, we, the people do not stand a chance. (BTW Corporate America buys it laws from both sides of the aisle)
In the end, how the Californians vote, will decide how much I pay for electricity. I think we should start an initiative demanding that California build a nuke power plant (heh heh)
Off-topic, but just thought I’d mention that NBC Nightly News carried the Karl Rove – Valerie Plame story tonight. This story can only get bigger because Rove does nothing without Bush’s knowledge and approval. Scott McClellan looked like a complete ass in dodging reporters’ questions. What do you want to bet that Bush not only reneges on his previous claims that he would fire whoever leaked Plame’s identity, but also pardons Rove if Rove is culpable for criminal prosecution. I think there’s probably impeachable offenses here.
fire_one – re:117
100% agreement with you when you said:
“I believe in paying for what we need. I believe in paying taxes for essential services. I believe in erecting power generation stations for needed electrictity. I don’t know if that makes me an R or a D, but I also don’t believe in giving anything the State wants to them. But we have to let the Legislators decide, and kick them out if they fail.
California is DESPARATELY short of power. They need a crash program to build power plants. Will they get them? Who will pay if they don’t?”
Now, don’t just hit the floor laughing but, I have a way to fix the problem in short order. INDIAN POWER PLANTS. Environmental hurdles and taxation problems disappear when they build Casinos. Why not let them do the state a service and get bloody rich, too? Heck, there’s no “letting” them. If they wanted to do it, that’s all it would take.
fire_one:
Your post 117 is on the mark. I’m 100% in agreement. Furthermore I can solve the power crisis right now. I know you’ll laugh, but think about it – INDIAN POWER PLANTS. N environmental roadblocks there. No tax problems. Hell, the operators could even smoke at work!
Back on topic, if I-912 passes and Washington’s transportation funding becomes Balkanized, here’s what’s gonna happen: There are two kinds of counties, givers and takers, and the givers will keep their gas tax money and the takers will face deep cuts in road spending. The biggest takers, of course, will be the biggest losers.
Takers Who Will Lose Big
Skagit County will lose about $25 million a year;
Kitsap County will lose about $20 million a year;
San Juan County will lose about $18 million a year;
Jefferson County will lose about $16 million a year;
Kittitas, Douglas, and Grays Harbor counties will each lose about $10 million a year;
Grant, Stevens, and Adams counties will each lose over $8 million a year;
Lincoln and Klickitat counties will each lose about $7 million a year;
Island, Okanogan, Ferry, Whatcom, Pacific, and Wahkiakum counties will each lose $4 to $6 million a year;
Lewis, Walla Walla, Garfield, Whitman, Skamania, Franklin, Columbia, Pend Oreille, Clallam, and Asotin counties also will all lose state road funding.
Givers:
King County will keep over $127 million a year currently exported to other counties;
Spokane, Yakima, and Thurston counties will each keep roughly $15 million a year (give or take a million or so) currently sent to other counties;
Clark County will gain about $8 million a year, and Mason County about $3 million a year;
Pierce, Benton, and Chelan counties will gain over $1 million a year, and Snohomish and Cowlitz counties will gain smaller amounts.
Obviously, King County is by far and away the biggest exporter of gas tax dollars to other counties, and if King County gas taxes are spent in King County to pay for King County’s critical projects, that by itself will eliminate most of the funds the takers are getting from the givers. Fine with me; let ’em ride horses and drive buckboards.
dj- I don’t see any intitatives pertaining to environmental issues. I found one to propose a 20% roll back in energy costs. It failed miserably after the power companies threw $40 million against it.
Reply to 124
You’re overlooking something, Baynative — Indian powerplants would be subject to state regulation because they would be exporting air and water pollution off their own lands onto state lands.
The point is not power. I could dig up any number of initiatives on many subjects. The point is the Initiative itself. When the citizens can vote themselves “bread and circuses” the Republic is in trouble.
Comment on 122
I won’t support ANY nuclear power plant construction until Congress repeals the $500 million cap on power company liability for nuclear accidents. It’s unconscionable to make homeowners and small businesses, who have no say in plant operation, bear the financial risks of an accident. This one is a deal-breaker for me: No liability, no nukes.
Okay Rabbit you win. I give up. It’s late here on the East Coast anyway. I’m hitting the sack.
Reply to 86 and 87
I have been paying attention and WAITING for Seattle and King County to pony up to the bar. As soon as YOU guys make arrangements to pay YOUR share than I may be willing to help but NOT A SECOND BEFORE.
If Seattle, King County and the WSDOT had not tried use congestion to force people out of their cars YOU would have had plenty of money to build an adequate highway system. But the leftists who rule in Seattle and King County tried and failed to force people out of their cars and now you have a congestion problem and are unwilling to spend your own money to fix. Where I live, I can see the tower at Paine Field, we have no congestion problem what so ever because the local governments have NOT tried to force people out of their cars.
What I really love is Seattle and King County sinking BILLIONS into fixed route mass transit systems that will serve only a tiny fraction of the people who are expected to pay for them.
Just look at the Monorail, a fixed system that might serve 5 percent of the people of Seattle. And then they wanted to stretch out paying for the system over twice the useful life of the system. While as the same time sucking up all the availble funding for mass transit improvements in the city for 50 years. Stupidity unbounded!
Reply to 88
Fire_on,
My family and I ride the ferries regularly. Do you think I am overly concerned about a terrorist bomb? I was trying to make the point that maybe it isn’t such a good idea to create more mass transit soft targets that are all but unsecurable from terrorists bombs.
Or, maybe, you think we should go through airport-like security screening before we board a subway or monorail train.
JC Bob @ 113
“I have been paying attention and WAITING for Seattle and King County to pony up to the bar. As soon as YOU guys make arrangements to pay YOUR share than I may be willing to help but NOT A SECOND BEFORE.”
What part of “King County has, for decades, subsidized the transportation of the less-populated counties” don’t you understand, you fucking idiot!
JC Bob @ 132
“My family and I ride the ferries regularly. Do you think I am overly concerned about a terrorist bomb? I was trying to make the point that maybe it isn’t such a good idea to create more mass transit soft targets that are all but unsecurable from terrorists bombs.”
If you are concerned about terrorists, don’t ride the ferries, trains or busses. And, stay out of sports stadiums, concert halls, airports, and political rallies.
Avoiding the building of infrastructure because it can become a terrorist target is nothing less than caving into the terrorists. If you want freedom and a free society, you will have to accept a little risk!
Baynative @ 126
“I don’t see any intitatives pertaining to environmental issues. I found one to propose a 20% roll back in energy costs. It failed miserably after the power companies threw $40 million against it.”
Then you haven’t looked very hard. My consulting fees are $200/hour if you really need and answer (other than the source that I linked to in my previous post that has initiatives tabulated topically through 1995).
But, at this point, I will point out that you questioned whether an initiative could possibly affect CA energy. Not only is it possible, but such initiatives have qualified for the ballot multiple times in the history of the state. How can there be any doubt of the possibility?
Roger Rabbit@125
OK here we go again I get so tired of hearing your bullshit. Washington has been a state for around 116 years, the viaduct could cost as much as $11.6 billion, The 520 bridge $2.5 billion or more, interstate 405 $5.1 billion, Washington 509 $987 million. In the last 116 years at your precious $128,000,000 Seattle has paid less than 14,848,000,000. That is giving the benifet of the asme amount since statehood. Now who the fuck is going to carry who? Im tired of you fucking whiners “Seattle pays more” shit I really am. Why dont you guys just vote King county another state, then you can whine to each other and tax one another to death. By the way, my figures dont even allow for what the rest of the state will have to pay to keep your roads up for the next 116 years.
http://www.kingcountyjournal.c.....tml/137619
I found this a very thoughtful article about terrorist risk.
Roger Rabbit@129
You dont get out much do you? If a power company pays a financial penalty, now stay with me here, he passes his cost, meaning the fine on to the customers, now Roger Rabbit, that is the customers and buisinesses that get power from the company. And you are welcome the education was free.
DJ; back for more profanity; what bill am i supposedly missing; the one the gas tax comes from? I guess i need to paste it here for you, maybe translate it to pig latin for you? or spray paint it on a building?
Are you kidding Goldy– It has already passed. The only thing that can stop this is too keep it off the ballot. KVI and Tim Eyeman need to work on there next project which if it gets on the ballot it will pass too.
rufus; how about one prohibiting gratuitous use of the emergency clause
I think that the next initiative should read something to the effect that any initiative passed into law by the people cannot be changed or altered in any way exept by a vote of the people.
OOOhhh dangerous free speech by the people
Chuck,
I think you may be onto something.
righton @ 39
DJ; back for more profanity;”
I never said I hated EVERYTHING about Dick Cheney :-)
“what bill am i supposedly missing; the one the gas tax comes from?”
The one that you want to repeal part of? Remember that? I find it astonishing that you are such a vocal opponent of repealing part of this bill when you don’t really know much about it!
“I guess i need to paste it here for you, maybe translate it to pig latin for you? or spray paint it on a building?”
I would settle for you giving it a careful read. But, yeah, translating it into pig Latin would be a good exercise for you. . . like mental gymnastics. :)
ok, i’ll paste, that is the one that raises $2bb against unknown costs (ah what will the viaduct cost?)
RUFUS @ 140
“Are you kidding Goldy– It has already passed. The only thing that can stop this is too keep it off the ballot.”
Oh. . . there is that other party-killer where most people vote against it. “Already passed” is the kind of fantisy world thinking that caused you stoopid fuckers to get so pissy about losing the Governor’s election!
wow DJ; this is easy. Guess they are going to fix 520 and viaduct without knownig their costs, or even final route (their plan tp acquire land still on hold for 420.)(by the way, hows the Indian graveyard on foster island doing; going to buy off the Montlake folks.. or indians?
sorry folks to paste url.. straight fro the tax monster http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdo.....ge2005.pdf
2005 Transportation Funding Package examples (chosen from approximately 270 projects)
• Alaskan Way Viaduct (State funds)
• SR 520
• I-405
• Seismic Retrofit of Severe and Moderate Risk
Bridges (approximately 175 projects)
• Bridge Replacement Projects
• SR 4/ Abernathy Creek – Bridge Replacement
• SR 6/ South Fork of Chehalis River – Bridge
Replacement
• SR 532/ General Mark W. Clark Memorial
Bridge Replacement
• SR 99/ North of Lincoln Way Sidewalks
• I-90/ Snoqualmie Pass East – Hyak to
Keechelus Dam
• I-82/ Valley Mall Boulevard Interchange
Construction
• SR 28/ Jct US 2/97 to 9th Street – Capacity
• I-5/ Downtown Bellingham On/Off Ramps
Reconstruction
• SR 112/ Neah Bay to Seiku – Roadside Safety
Improvements
• SR 500/ St Johns Boulevard – Interchange
Construction
• I-5/ Boston to Shelby Southbound – Noise Walls
• Fish Passage Barrier Removal
• SR 530/ Sauk River – Chronic Environmental
Fixes
• SR 9/ Corridor Improvements for Safety
• Freight Mobility Projects for Local Freightways
• Safe Routes to Schools Grants
• Para Transit/Special Needs Grants
• Construction of One Replacement Ferry Boat
• Terminal Improvements at Port Townsend and
Fauntleroy and Bainbridge Island
• King Street Station Track Improvements to
Prevent Freight/Passenger Conflicts
• Freight Rail Improvements Statewide
• Preservation of State-owned AMTRAK Train
Equipmen
dj-
You charge a high dollar fee for never saying much:
“I will point out that you questioned whether an initiative could possibly affect CA energy. Not only is it possible, but such initiatives have qualified for the ballot multiple times in the history of the state. How can there be any doubt of the possibility?”
Answering a question with a question is not an answer. “Possible” is not an effect!
You gave me a link of initiatives that never mentioned environment. And think you’ve made a point by copying a google searcTHIS IS WHY I DESERVE A VOTE ON THE GAS TAX. You’ve made my argument!
144
I second that. Chuck you need to E-mail that to Tim.
dj; is this then the final extra spending package by the state to make our transit nice, fast? this feels like a bunch of junk
Oh. . . there is that other party-killer where most people vote against it. “Already passed” is the kind of fantisy world thinking that caused you stoopid fuckers to get so pissy about losing the Governor’s election!
Comment by dj— 7/11/05 @
I am not worried DJ… there are not enough provisional ballots in King County. I-912 will easily garner enough votes to compensate for all the fruadulent votes in King County.
john said…….
ghost @ 37
You freaking backstabber. Your a real looney tune or you’re dyslexic because your reading comprehension is second grade!
I did NOT stiff the hospital I went to. My insurance company did!
The hospital kept me for observation because of my family history and a heart murmur I’ve had since birth!
If you think my visit there wasn’t medically necessary then you try having a family and experiencing the chest pains I did!
Comment by John— 7/11/05 @ 4:16 pm
john..backstabber? that’s rich coming from the guy that spammed my blog.
and haven’t you ever read what it says at the bottom of the contract that you sign at the hospital? if your insurance company does not pay you are liable. what part of being responsible don’t you get?
now….do i think that’s always fair? no…especially with your family’s history of heart problems. but you did get a service and you DID NOT pay for it.
i would say that is alot more unfair in the end….to all the rest of us.
as far as having a family with medical problems. i have three sons who are all in college right now, one of them has a serious medical condition. so i can relate.
get a different insurance company.
Reply to 131
Bob, WTF are you talking about in your 1st paragraph? King County taxpayers subsidize transportation in the rest of the state.
Mass transit in King County isn’t the unmitigated bleak picture you try to paint. Seattle’s bus system works pretty well. I used it for years when I worked in downtown Seattle, and I could not have afforded to driven my car to work, paid for downtown parking, and so on, on my income. The bus system made it possible for me to work. The commuter buses were standing room only every day.
The jury is still out on Sound Transit. Light rail is expensive, has suffered from bad management, and has yet to serve any customers. What we do know is that light rail has worked well in some other cities.
The Monorail is looking more like a pie-in-the-sky pipe dream every day. Underfunded from the state, the seeds of its doom may have been planted with the decision to rely on a single tax source.
But you are fooling yourself if you think Seattle (or any other large city) can build its way out of traffic congestion. More freeways simply attract more cars, more development, and more population. You can NEVER build your way out of congestion, as L.A. proves. I’ll tell you what will solve Seattle’s traffic congestion with existing roadways, $10-a-gallon gas, that’s what. And if you think that’s not coming, you’re doubly fooling yourself. The world’s supply of oil is finite, and the world’s population and demand for oil are both growing rapidly, meanwhile no more oil is being created. The shit is gonna hit the fan within a few years, it has to, because at current rates of consumption all of the world’s currently known recoverable oil reserves will be used up within 30 years. When fuel is no longer cheap, people won’t drive their vehicles frivolously, and when only essential driving is occurring the traffic will move better on much less crowded roadways and the necessity of fuel and cost efficient mass people movers will be manifest. If we don’t build mass transit now, despite the imperfections in planning and management, we will be kicking ourselves 10 to 15 years hence.
Oops, typo, meant to say Monorail was “underfunded from the start”
Reply to 137
Chuck, if you’re try to say people outside King County are subsidizing King County, you’re full of shit. Here are the numbers, pal. http://www.metrokc.gov/exec/ne.....ansrev.htm All I’m saying is if I-912 passes (as I believe it will — how hard is it to get people to vote against a 9 1/2 cent gas tax increase?), AWV and the 502 bridge still have to be replaced, so if the public doesn’t want to pay higher gas taxes then use the existing gas taxes collected in King County for those projects instead of sending $127 million a year of that money elsewhere in the state. Of course that means cutting road maintenance and projects in counties that have been living on gas taxes paid by King County drivers, but isn’t that what they chose when they voted for I-912? They should get what they voted for, right?
At $125 million plus a year, in 20 years WSDOT could raise $2.5 billion dollars — roughly what’s been budgeted for AWV and 520 from the 9 1/2 cent increase — and nobody would pay higher gas taxes anywhere in the state. The rest of the money for those projects would come from local taxes and possibly tolls. The 405 project might have to go by the boards, but hey, most of the folks in East King County are Republicans anyway and who gives a fuck if they’re stuck in traffic 6 hours a day.
Roger Rabbit@155
You couldnt build a transit system to support LA, no way no how! Same for places like Washington DC, St louis, and so on. A mediocre transit system exists in New York but that is the largest heap of humanity in the world…oh and yes $10.00 per gallon will come and people will still drive cars!
Addendum to Reply to 137
“I get so tired of hearing your bullshit”
Sounds like a personal problem to me.
Hey, I have a suggestion — if you don’t like what I post, don’t read it. How hard is that to figure out?
For those of you who don’t know what a “personal problem” is, it’s military jargon that means something like this.
A personal problem is one which has no military significance and therefore does not require a solution. For example, the possibility that you may be killed in combat is a personal problem and has no military significance because there are plenty more draftees where you came from.
But the leftists who rule in Seattle and King County tried and failed to force people out of their cars and now you have a congestion problem and are unwilling to spend your own money to fix.
What the hell are you talking about? Who do you think will be paying most of the gas tax? Seattle and King County residents. Who has paid most of the gas tax for the time it’s been in existance? Seattle and King County residents. Who subsidizes the rest of the state? Seattle and King County residents.
Where I live, I can see the tower at Paine Field, we have no congestion problem what so ever because the local governments have NOT tried to force people out of their cars.
I can only assume that you live on Whidbey Island. Rather than having no congestion because your government hasn’t forced people out of your cars, you have no congestion because hardly anybody lives there and Seattle and King County residents have paid for your ferries and highways.
Maybe instead of bitching at us, you should show some appreciation for the fact that we’ve given you the transportation system you now enjoy. I’m sure you won’t, though. Because while you like to complain about Seattle and King County residents, I’m sure you’d be the first to complain if we stopped paying your bills.
Roger Rabbit@157
Pretty good shit you are smoking over there!
Roger Rabbit:
You’re letting these ignorant wingtards get under your skin, man! If they insist on thinking and acting like children, then treat them like children. You know you can’t reason with a two year old who’s running around screaming and stamping his feet, so why do you bother?
RR-Geo– You are going to treat us like children!!! Blah ha aha. Go back in your corner little ones and learn how to count now. Shit… And after that we will learn what is is.
Reply to 139
You can’t read past 2nd grade level, can you? Where did I say anything about power companies paying fines? Cite, please.
What I did say was (a) California’s 2001 power shortage was caused by illegal manipulation, and (b) if a power company is negligent in operating a nuclear power plant and causes $10 billion of damage to innocent victims, the company (and its insurers) should be on the hook for the $10 billion of damage its negligence caused.
The obvious solution is for power companies to buy insurance against the potential risk. If insurance companies refuse to write insurance for nuclear plants, doesn’t that tell you that nuclear plants are unreasonably risky? And if they’re unreasonably risky, what is the justification for making individuals and communities assume that risk against their will? Isn’t that dispossession, a taking without compensation, and a profound violation of the fundamental American principle of fair play?
Sure, the insurance will be expensive, and the expense will be passed on to the power customers. Economists would argue that’s the proper course of action. Why should the residents of Town X, where the nuclear plant is sited, bear the portion of the cost of power production represented by insurance costs, so customers in L.A. or San Diego can pay less for power than the true cost of producing it? Economists refer to these kinds of costs as “external costs,” i.e., costs that are not paid by the consumers of the product or service but are foisted on others.
When Congress enacted the $500 million liability cap, it turned the cost of insuring against a nuclear accident into an external cost foisted on the plant’s host community against their will. The individual homeowners and businesses are forced to buy their own insurance against the property and financial losses that would result from a nuclear accident — if they can get it at all. In a very real way, they are being forced to subsidized part of the cost of producing the power, so the plant’s customers can buy the power for less than it costs to produce it. How do you think potential host communities will react to that? If they have any sense, they’ll fight the plant tooth and nail, that’s how.
A more evil aspect of the liability limitation is that tort immunity encourages potential tortfeasors to be careless. If there’s no consequences for running over a pedestrian, then why not speed down a residential street way over the speed limit and blow throw the crosswalk without looking? There’s no incentive not to, so — human nature being what it is — people will do it. Same thing with the liability cap on nuclear plant operators. Why be careful in how you run the plant if you don’t have to pay for the consequences? We already know the answer to that, it was seen at Chernobyl and Three Mile Island.
Chuck, you truly are as stupid as you look. Let me ask you this question. Are you willing to have a nuclear plant in your town, knowing that if the operators get careless, and your home and property is contaminated and rendered uninhabitable, nobody’s going to pay you a dime and you’re just shit out of luck? Hey, if you want to volunteer to host a we-don’t-care-because-we-don’t-have-to nuclear plant, sign here __________________________ and I’ll make sure it gets to the right folks.
You live in Roy, don’t you? Yes, I think Roy is a good place for L.A.’s next nuclear plant …
dj–
Your frustration level today is so high it’s hilarious.
I can kind of relate…..it reminds me of my frustration when you LEFTIST PINHEADS repeatedly said the County’s did not have to match the number of votes and voters.
Heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-hardy-har-har-har-har-heh-heh-heh-heh!
right on christmasghost! 153
Comment on 147
Why do you have a problem with the state contributing a fixed amount from gas tax revenues for the AWV and 520 projects, with local taxpayers on the hook for the rest? Seems to me that protects the folks paying the gas tax from cost overruns, and gives King County voters a powerful incentive to keep WSDOT and local officials from gold-plating or mismanaging the projects. It’s a fixed-price contract, and if the locals can’t keep the projects within budget, they eat the overruns.
Why are you against that?
RUFUS
That’s right, go ahead and cry, you baby. Pretty soon it’ll be nappy time and then you’ll feel all better.
Comment on 150
You’ve got your vote on the gas tax. So why are you still railing about it?
Reply to 163
I’m not reasoning with them, I’m fucking with them. Look at the vitriol they post against me … clearly I’m getting under their skin. And enjoying every moment of it! :D
See, for example, post #164.
righton @ 149
“this is easy. Guess they are going to fix 520 and viaduct without knownig their costs, or even final route (their plan tp acquire land still on hold for 420.)”
Come on, righton, one more try. READ the FUCKING LEGISLATION. Posting EXAMPLE projects from a brochure doesn’t count as reading and understanding the legislation. If you don’t read the legislation and understand its purposes and mechanisms, you’re still spewing bullshit.
Roger Rabbit@165
“Chuck, you truly are as stupid as you look. Let me ask you this question. Are you willing to have a nuclear plant in your town, knowing that if the operators get careless, and your home and property is contaminated and rendered uninhabitable, nobody’s going to pay you a dime and you’re just shit out of luck?”>>>
OK now you sound like the little boy that cried wolf, How many homes and properties were contaminated lately? I am thinking $500 mil should pretty much cover me and FEMA can pony up for the rest, they can use the EPA superfund to clean up the mess, I think between those three even Chernoble would have been taken care of. But as I pointed out cant remember it happening…
RR @171
Well allrighty then – lay on, Macduff!
I just realized the best part about rufus’ reply @ 164 — he recognized himself as a wingtard!
Enough already.. This gas tax is going to be voted down in November so there really is nothing to talk about. You know the state should make it easier for Tim and company and just let them pick two items they want to see on the ballot for each election. Why even bother with the signatures. Only require signatures for donk initiatives.
Comment on 166
Mr. Cynical is taking a break from converting L & I taxes for injured workers into BIAW political slush funds. Here’s how it works. Mr. Cynical has a washing machine on his desk at BIAW where he works. It looks like one of those old fashioned washing machines with rollers and a crank handle, only it’s smaller. Mr. Cynical has a box of $100 bills on his desk. These $100 bills were L & I taxes paid to the state by employers, but somehow BIAW got ahold of them. Mr. Cynical feeds the $100 bills into the rollers one at a time, and turns the crank handle. The $100 bills come out the other side of the rollers. They look the same, but they’re not the same. The $100 bills are no longer L & I taxes for injured workers, they are now BIAW political slush funds, which are then used for various kinds of bullshit, e.g. paying for Rossi’s meritless election contest lawsuit. I have asked Mr. Cynical several times to explain how his washing machine works because I would really like to know what’s inside it and what happens to the $100 bills when they go through the rollers, but an answer has never been forthcoming. They are MANY unanswered questions, for example, at what point does the $100 bill change from L & I taxes for injured workers into Rossi slush funds? 1/4 of the way through? 1/2 way through? Or does it have to go all the way through before it becomes BIAW slush funds? Is the process reversible, i.e., if you feed the $100 bills into the far side of the rollers and crank backwards, does that turn the $100 bill from BIAW slush funds back into L & I taxes for injured workers? So many questions, no answers.
“but you did get a service and you DID NOT pay for it.
i would say that is alot more unfair in the end….to all the rest of us.
as far as having a family with medical problems. i have three sons who are all in college right now, one of them has a serious medical condition. so i can relate.
get a different insurance company.
Comment by christmasghost”
and didnt you file a lawsuit against your employer, and arent you a shock jock wannabe?
and isnt a frivolous lawsuit paid for by everyone but you?
Cheesy Chuckie @ 174
YOUR TRUE COLORS ARE SHOWING! YOU’LL GO RUNNING TO THE FEDS FOR A BAILOUT! ISN’T THAT JUST LIKE A FUCKING REPUBLICAN FREELOADER.
Hey Roger- There are a ton of those models all over the place. Just go donw to your local union hall and try one out. The teachers union has some real old ones by the way.
Rufus @ 176
You’re right that the gas tax is going to be voted down in November, but you’re wrong that there’s nothing to talk about. If the gas tax is voted down we have to talk about what, if anything, the state is going to do about the Alaska Way Viaduct and 520 bridge. These are, by the way, state highways and therefore state (not county) responsibilities.
As I have said all along, there is NO NEED to pay a higher gas tax to replace the AWV and 520 bridge. It can be done with existing gas tax revenues simply by diverting the $127 million a year of gas taxes exported from King County to other parts of the state to the funding for these projects that would have been provided by the defeated gas tax increase. To be fair to the freeloader counties that have been leeching off King County motorists for years the Legislature should, of course, pass a law authorizing them to enact local option MVET and/or gas taxes to replace the revenue they will no longer be able to suck from King County taxpayers.
Works for me.
rr and other lefties; since when do i have to read the guts of a bill to understand it? do you read all thi bills…and shouldn’t the recap from DOT be enough?
its not a fixed priced contract; maybe the state’s contribution is, but you guys are double whack jobs if that satisfies you. My insurance company just sent me $5,000 but ordered me a new Bimmer; is that a good deal? Might be for them, but its too darn expensive and i can’t afford it.
See you latte pourers/cab drivers later..
RR
We can iron out the details once independant performance audits have been approved and implemented. This is just a hunch but there will be more than enough money once we know the REAL truth.
baynative @ 150
“Answering a question with a question is not an answer. “Possible” is not an effect!”
You goofy fucker. You were the one asking about a “possible effect.” Here is what you asked @ 108 “How could the initiative process possibly influence California’s energy?”
I said there were an infinite number of possible ways (do you really want me to imagine a couple thousand possible ways and post them for you? That would cost you.). Not only is it possible, but I provided evidence that the initiative process has done so.
“You gave me a link of initiatives that never mentioned environment.”
WTF? I gave you a link (@ 120) to a report from the California Research Bureau on the State’s Initiative Process. Did you look at the report? It tallies initiatives by topics, and “environmental” is one of the topics. (It also cites its source as the Secreatary of State’s office—so, if you had read the report, you might have concluded that the SoS office would be a good place to find the details of the initiatives).
“And think you’ve made a point by copying a google searcTHIS IS WHY I DESERVE A VOTE ON THE GAS TAX. You’ve made my argument!”
Holy shit, Baynative, you’ve become apoplectic. Lay off the crack, will ya?
I-912 has bi-partisan support outside of king county.
They couldn’t have gotten that many signatures that quickly without it.
My personal preference would be to fund the Viaduct and 520 after they have a plan and a price tag. Giving them a blank check BEFORE the project starts is just stupid. What other business operates that way? Oh I forgot this is Washington State we don’t do shit right…
righton @ 152
“is this then the final extra spending package by the state to make our transit nice, fast?”
If you read the legislation, you would know the priorities and the rationalle for those priorities. (It seems like you are unable to look up and read this for yourself. While I am generally unwilling to promote such ignorance, I will make a small exception here.)
The criterion for priority funding of the special category C projects is accident experience, fatal accident experience, capacity/congestion reduction and finally, building new roads.
Also, you would learn by reading the legislation that for some of the special catebory C projects, the tax revenue is not the actual funding for the projects, but is used to pay of debt service on bonds that will finance the projects. So, no, this is not the final financing—some portion is, in fact, something more akin to venture capital. It will require finding other revenue sources. Nevertheless, don’t worry. The list of special category C projects is far too long for the gas tax to cover them all. Note that the projects are not specifically named in the legislation, so all you’re bellyaching about SR520 bridge and AWV is for naught. For the big projects, the tax provides tools; if the revenue cannot be found, the money will go to the next highest priority project that is not yet funded.
Additionally, this is not the “final” package because in 2008, inflation will start, effectively, reducing our gas tax. Unfortunately, the gas tax is an excise tax, not a sales tax. That means it has to be raised periodically just to maintain revenues in inflation-adjusted dollars.
Rufus @ 183
What makes you think WSDOT hasn’t been audited from day one? The lead time for a major transportation project is years, and WSDOT certainly can’t predict or control the future cost of concrete and steel, both of which have been highly volatile recently. Performance audits are fine as far as it goes, but they’re not a substitute for good management, which seems to be lacking in the case of both Sound Transit and the Monorail. In the hands of you wingers, performance audits are a red herring, because you misuse them as a device to veto projects simply because you don’t want to pay any taxes. Yes, our state has a history of mismanagement of public projects that justifies skepticism and public vigilance, but distrusting public officials will not get anything built. The question remains — what happens if AWV and the 520 bridge must be shut down for safety reasons, in which case Seattle loses a third of its commuter capacity? This city will shut down and the state’s economy will collapse, that’s what will happen.
bullshit @ 185
“Giving them a blank check BEFORE the project starts is just stupid. What other business operates that way?”
You, too, need to read the legislation. The legislation offers no blank checks for these projects.
185
The gas tax had bipartisan support from all over the state in both houses of the Legislature.
Roger Rabbit@179
Thats why I pay for the “superfund” and FEMA
There hasnt been an independant audit done on a Washington state government agency for years. As far as distrusting public officials go most people on the right not only feel it’s their right but it’s their duty to mistrust public officials. If you want taxpayer money what is wrong with wanting independant verification on where that money is being spent. I would be much more willing to RELY on what was being said to me if we were able to VERIFY the results.
Roger Rabbit@187
Give me even a shred of evidence that WSDOT has had ANY audit from a neutral party!
ghost @ 154
I’ve had it with you ghost. I did not spam your blog! This guy might be able to help you with your spam problems or he might know someone who can.
What kind of freaking planet did you come from? What the hell do we pay insurance companies for!?! To protect us from shots in the dark you fool!
I can’t help it if the insurance company that my employer at the time was using was run by a bunch of jerks!
I also can’t help it if the hospital was dumb enough to sign a contract with the very same jerks!
A pox on your paranoid house!
I don’t really see how much money I am saving by voting down a 3.5 cent per gallon gas tax when all I will save in the deal is a lousy 52.5 cents per fill-up.
Even when the full 9.5 cent tax is in force, WA still wouldn’t have the highest gax tax.
Its a lie that keeps being repeated over and over and over.
And even if it were true, would it matter that much, given WA taxpayers don’t pay ANY state income tax?
This state is full of the biggest whiners imaginable….no state income tax, yet they scream about a few measely cent raise in the gas tax. After living in Chelan county for the last 25 years, then moving to the eastern US, then moving back, I still can’t understand the meaness of its tax opponents (all the while demanding their annual farm subsidies from the federal goverment).
After all, isn’t a gas tax a good way also get tax revenue from
out-of-state people who use WA roads?
Is there one shred of evidence that a draconian cutback on goverment services and massive layoffs of goverment employees will pay for all the road projects needed in this state?
Maybe RR is right in that the only way people will take a hint is to limit spending on county projects according to the county’s ability to pay…..
You LEFTIST PINHEADS fail to address the $60 million WSDOT pissed away on the Hood Canal Bridge Graving Yard Site for building pontoons in Pt. Angeles…. where they squandered all those dollars on a site that was an Indian Village that any idiot could have found on the fucking Internet.
$60 million GONE and NO ONE HAS BEEN FIRED OR HELD FINANCIALLY ACCOUNTABLE. WTF! WTF! WTF!!
dj–Who in their right mind would give more money to WSDOT with this type of track record and worst of all NO ACCOUNTABILITY!!!
This didn’t just happen…it happened because WSDOT did not clearly spec. out what they wanted from consultants in doing their due diligence on the site.
WHO FUCKED UP?
WHO SHOULD BE FIRED?
HOW CAN WE GET THAT MONEY BACK?
$196 MILLION for a park entrance and turn lane! That’s government in action.
dj; only a communist could be ignorant enough of economics to equate taxes to fund debt service with “venture capital”. In the real world that’s called junk bonds.
Ok, your supposed expert analysis only shows the extra tax is either cuz they just flat out need more money , or they can spend it as they want.
If our gov’t can’t respect the “emergency clause” in initiatives, how the heck can we expect them to respect certain “priority” clauses in this bill. That is, even if its nicely written to put badly needed stuff in first position, they have proven they can easily ignore what’s in the law, to suit their own purposes. (dems in the state gov to me are the same as bureaucrats in the DOT)
And perhaps your read of the law (priorities) is right. Why then do they dishonestly wrap this around “the viaduct might fall, people get killed” What is, it, a bill for more funding for misc trans needs, or for the viaduct?
And they still haven’t figured out the supposed cemetray on Foster Island. Indians smart; know claiming a cemetray = $$ from the state.
john@193…..calm down bro’…….
you really do need to get another insurance company. yes, as i have said over and over alot of the insurance companies are HORRIBLE.and the slimier your employer/boss the worse the company. that’s where personal responsibility comes in. you have to make the choice to do that. yeah…it’s not always easy…but it sounds like it’s pretty necessary in your case.
as far as the how and why …..your insurance didn’t pay the bill and that means YOU are responsible. period.
you could pay it now, right? but are you? no.
that’s where i have a problem with you…because you are not taking your liabilities seriously ,it’s costing the rest of us and perhaps preventing some low income person from getting the care they need.
now…that’s not being a very good liberal ,is it?
now …take a deep breath and calm down…..with your heart you need to de-stress and this is all just a conversation…nothing more.
Being Realistic@194
“Even when the full 9.5 cent tax is in force, WA still wouldn’t have the highest gax tax.”>>>
OK Ill bite, which state would be higher?
Cynical @ 195
“where they squandered all those dollars on a site that was an Indian Village that any idiot could have found on the fucking Internet.”
I’ve seen you post this before, but I don’t know where this information comes from, so I don’t feel qualified to respond.
From what web site was WSDOT able to learn of burried human remains prior to the start of the project?
I lean toward’s dj’s question…here some news on it…
Evidence Missed
An archeologist employed by WSDOT to conduct a “cultural resources survey” reported that “no evidence of significant prehistoric or historic archeological resources was found” (MacDonald, 11). The survey, for which WSDOT paid less than $7,000, did note that Tse-whit-zen, a large and important Klallam village, had been located near the project site, and that the village cemetery was in the general vicinity of the former lumber mill. The small Lower Elwha Klallam Tribe, which, unlike some tribes, had no cultural resources office or tribal archeologist, basically agreed with the survey but strongly urged caution due to the proximity to their ancestral village.
and john…….well the IP address you used in the comments was the only one that all that crap was coming from. it has been blocked. so if you didn’t do it deliberately, then YOU have a problem. no one else’s email addresses were grabbed or used and the pro i had check it out said that it was either you on purpose or you because you have a problem. you might want to check it out. you can use a fake email all you want, but with your IP and whois….well, you can be backtracked. i keep everyone’s info private and this is the first time i have ever had a problem.
and AllHatAndNoHorse……huh?????? are you directing that comment at me?
righton @ 197
“only a communist could be ignorant enough of economics to equate taxes to fund debt service with “venture capital”. In the real world that’s called junk bonds.”
Your comment would be fair enough if I had equated the two. I used the phrase “something more akin to”. Yes, the analogy does break down in a number of ways.
“Ok, your supposed expert analysis only shows the extra tax is either cuz they just flat out need more money , or they can spend it as they want.”
Expert analysis? Hardly. I simply read the legislation. In any case, my statements said nothing of the sort.
“If our gov’t can’t respect the “emergency clause” in initiatives, how the heck can we expect them to respect certain “priority” clauses in this bill. That is, even if its nicely written to put badly needed stuff in first position, they have proven they can easily ignore what’s in the law, to suit their own purposes. (dems in the state gov to me are the same as bureaucrats in the DOT)”
No, in fact, they cannot use an emergency clause to use the gas tax money for non-transportation projects. At this point, I’ll have to recommend that you read the State Constitution. You will find the reason there.
“And perhaps your read of the law (priorities) is right. Why then do they dishonestly wrap this around “the viaduct might fall, people get killed””
“The viaduct is falling” line is independent and predates this legislation by four years. You may remember the Nisqually earthquake (28 Feb 01). We first started hearing engineering assessments that “the viaduct is falling” following the post-quake damage assessments.
“What is, it, a bill for more funding for misc trans needs, or for the viaduct? “
Neither, really. It is certainly not about the viaduct, since the viaduct is not even mentioned in the legislation (viaduct projects might well rank high on the priority list, however, and if funding packages can be pieced together, those projects will use some of the tax revenues).
The state has been underfunding transportation infrastructure at least since early 2000. The loss of the car tab tax, inflation eating away at the value of the gas excise tax, and voter reluctance to enact (Referendum 51) new revenue sources have resulted in a substantial loss of revenue for transportation. (The “nickel package” passed in 2003 helped restore some revenue, but was a stop-gap measure.)
As a result, WSDOT has, in many ways, been in triage mode: some maintenance has had to be deferred, safety upgrades have largely been ignored, capacity has not kept up with the growth in demand, and new infrastructure development has been minimal. Finally, the shortages have resulted in local govenrments taking cuts to their transportation budgets. The legislation addresses many of these problems.
@ 199
I’m not calming down! Your whole response to this spam issue has been flat out whacko!
You don’t know anything about me! I’m for fairness and I believe what I believe because I call things as I see them. And I see what’s passing as “conservatism” these days as institutionalizing the economic and ruling privileges of a reactionary elite.
I don’t know anything about you but from what I’ve read I see a huge moral blindspot and an absolute inability to self-examine and challenge your assumptions and in my experience that’s probably why you’re a corporate executive. You calling insurance companies and their executives slime even though true in many if not most cases is really calling the kettle black!
A conversation? What a laugh! Is sliming me behind my back “a conversation”?!?
I’m not rich must less filthy rich but if I was filthy rich I wouldn’t be trying to buy off politicians so my heirs would have an easier time avoiding estate taxes. And I’d make sure that I’d return my fortune to all levels of the society that made it all possible for me and not just the elite.
And I certainly wouldn’t forget the hospital that saved my backside!
So instead of being paranoid hire a professional to find out really happened. You know, as in reality-based? That is, if you still have any interest in reality and your true motive isn’t carrying out a vindictive agenda!
dj; replace viaduct w/ 520; it is clearly mentioned. ok, its a general tax increase, wrapped around specific high profile possible needs.
Make the issue: “we need more money; transportation is underfunded”. A more honest argument then from both sides.
We’d say, “you’ve wasted a lot before, we don’t trust you to get any more”
As for the emergency legislation, my point was the general citizenry don’t trust the legislators…we vote down the stadium(s), they vote them back, we pass initiative on spending limits, they bypass them by claiming emergencies…
Feels like citizens should have vote on all items, since legislators don’t listen. Must be the legions of entrenched dems in the legislature.
DJ: You claim that there have been WSDOT audits without any documented links or provided evidence. I asked you a month ago for a WSDOT audit link. Now you have been asked a second time. Amazing commentary DJ. I suggest a Quiznos sub because the brain needs some nourishment today!
I wrote a month ago my family would support the gas tax hike if the WSDOT would provide project audits for previous, existing, and proposed projects. I understand the issue of cost overruns. If a project I am creating will incur overruns, I have to alert my clients way ahead of time. Why doesn’t government perform the same for the tax payers?
@ 199
Well it appears you have hired someone!
I’ll ask Goldy if it’s ok you send him the following:
The IP.
The e-mail address
The date I last commented and the subject.
The date you started receiving the spam.
Yes, please don’t post it here.
If I have a problem I want to know about it.
@ 199
Ghost forget it. I don’t want to put Goldy in the middle of this.
I’ll look into things on my end.
Nice talking to you…
righton @ 206
replace viaduct w/ 520; it is clearly mentioned. ok, its a general tax increase, wrapped around specific high profile possible needs.
The 520 bridge is not mentioned in the legislation. You still have not read the legislation???? The legislation is a transportation-specific tax wrapped around specific priorities (safety first, congestion reduction after that, new infrastructure after that).
“Make the issue: “we need more money; transportation is underfunded”. A more honest argument then from both sides.”
I suspect the dishonesty you detect is based on right-wing radio rants that have tried to turn this into a project-specific Western Washington money grab. Do you have specific complaints here about the way the legislature, the executive branch (Gov., WSDOT) or the legislation itself has discussed this issue?
“We’d say, “you’ve wasted a lot before, we don’t trust you to get any more” As for the emergency legislation, my point was the general citizenry don’t trust the legislators…we vote down the stadium(s), they vote them back, we pass initiative on spending limits, they bypass them by claiming emergencies…”
An even better criticism is that the citizens rejected a 9.5 cent gas tax referendum (51). The problem is, the legislature has the responsibility for public safety and for maintaining the infrastructure that has been built.
Here is an analogy, a condo association asks members to increase their fees because (1) their payments are fixed rather than inflation-indexed, and (2) there are specific maintenance items that, if defered, will yield much greater long-term costs. (Let’s say, the roof is begining to leak—fix it now for the cost of a new roof, or wait until there is internal water damage, decay of wooden infrastructure, etc. and it gets damn expensive). Of course, most condo owners realize that if the roof caves in on the North side of the building, it greatly devalues their property on the South side of the building. Unfortunately, the owners of this state are not quite so enlightened. They vote for “free ice cream cones” at the same time they vote for a tax cut. Well, sometimes the legislature has to make tough political decisions because the citizens don’t appreciate the responsibility of ownership and the ramifications of making decisions without understanding the ramifications.
“Feels like citizens should have vote on all items, since legislators don’t listen.”
That is why we elect legislatures. If citizens had a direct vote on each item, (1) there would be an enormous loss of productivity for citizens who bothered to educate themselves on the issues or (2) the state would become completely dysfunctional. Righton, I can’t even entice you to read a single piece of legislation that you feel strongly about. How the hell would we get citizens to read the 500+ pieces of (mostly boring) legislation that the legislature must deal with every year?
Roger @181 -“As I have said all along, there is NO NEED to pay a higher gas tax to replace the AWV and 520 bridge. It can be done with existing gas tax revenues simply by diverting the $127 million a year of gas taxes exported from King County to other parts of the state to the funding for these projects that would have been provided by the defeated gas tax increase.”
Roger, I usually agree wholeheartedly with you, but this sounds like pretty fuzzy math to me. How exactly does $127/million a year in taxes (which has to pay for lots of other stuff in KC in addition to the two megaprojects you cite) get you to $3 billion for 520 and $4.6 billion for the AWV, before bond debt is figured in? Keep in mind that our civic poo-bah’s punted on putting a Regional Transportation Improvement District on the ballot last year becuase they realized it would tank at the polls (including in King County), so I wouldn’t count on voter approval of the additional funds that will be needed for the AWV. In addition, while WASHDOT is now studying tolls for the AWV, has previously stated that that project is not well suited to rely on toll revenue when there are a number of alternate routes (Airport Way, I-5, 1st and 4th Avenue S.). Also, anyone going downtown on the AWV will face the loss of midtown entrances and exits, further reducing the utility of the $4+ billion tunnel the City Beautiful types are pushing (and I firmly believe that the price to “connect Downtown Seattle back to its waterfront” is too damn high if it means cutting West Seattle and Ballard off from the rest of the City and points north and south.)
As I have said all along, I believe that Seattle’s civic leadership has an enormous edifice complex where the AWV is concerned, and will try and start work on Big Dig West without having sufficient funds in place (remember Senator Patty Murray telling Greg Nickels that $1 bilion in Federal funds for this project wasn’t just impossible – it was very impossible) in order to commit the public to this champagne project on what ought to be a beer budget. If voting to repeal a 9.5 cent gas tax (which, by the way, the voters explicity rejected in R51 not so long ago) is what it takes to send WASHDOT back to the drawing board to give an honest analysis of the feasibility of retrofitting the existing AWV, so be it.
BTW – I doubt the I-912 poll numbers Goldy cites. The political establishment and major daily newspapers of our state wouldn’t be in such a lather if they didn’t see the writing on the wall. I think they’ll be lucky to pull a simple majority of no votes in KC, and they’re gonna get clobbered in Pierce and Snohomish counties, let alone Eastern Washington.
BTW – I personally regard the 520 bridge as a greater threat both to life safety and to regional mobility than the AWV (which I drive on almost daily, and am happy to continue taking my chances on for the next 30 years until the next likely seismic event occurs), and think it’s a shame the project funding amounts in this package aren’t reversed ($.5 billion for AWV and $2 billion for 520), but hey, developers don’t quite have the same profit opportunities there, now do they?
Putty @ 207
“You claim that there have been WSDOT audits without any documented links or provided evidence. I asked you a month ago for a WSDOT audit link.”
I am under no obligation to answer you (you can hire me. . . ). In this case, I don’t recall you asking so I either missed your comment in one of your multi-topic threads (which I don’t usually read) or you asked in a stale comment thread.
There are many layers of auditing for the whole state, from checks in the computerized budget software, to detailed to unannounced detailed audits for particular departments. You want more information on WSDOT performance auditing? There is a web page with a number of links: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/accountability/. Read the quarterly performance reports and the benchmarks set by the Washington State Transportation Comisssion.
“I wrote a month ago my family would support the gas tax hike if the WSDOT would provide project audits for previous, existing, and proposed projects.”
Well, have at it! Read the quarterly reports and decide whether the audits and their results meet your standards!
“I understand the issue of cost overruns. If a project I am creating will incur overruns, I have to alert my clients way ahead of time. Why doesn’t government perform the same for the tax payers?”
They do! Read the quarterly report. You will learn that, of the 12 completed nickel projects, 6 were under-budget, 1 over-budget, and 5 on budget.
john..as i said before…calm down. and i don’t mean that in a nasty sense. i am not worried about the spam thing anymore…i had it checked out and, as you said, i should have blocked that “path” and i didn’t…so ultimately i am to blame too aren’t i?
of course i would NEVER publish your IP here or anywhere else.
but i think you should check out your system as you might have a problem.
we all come on here to discuss things…not to hurt each other. well, there are a few that do…but the majority of us don’t.
i am actually an artist. i just got roped into the corp. exec. thing because of family obligations. but i can honestly say that our company is one anyone would want to work for. we don’t treat employees like crap, we have excellent medical/dental and we treat the employees as the equal and important people they are. we have all had crappy bosses in our lives, and we decided a long time ago that life [for everyone] is way too short to have to deal with jerks at work. most people spend the majority of their lives working…shouldn’t it be the best place it can be? a place you actually enjoy being? we think so. not all corporate america is bad.but i agree with alot of what people have to say here about corporate america because they are running amok. with people’s lives, with their time, and sense of self-worth.
the best advice? and not always easy to do…but worth it. start looking for companies that treat their employees really well. start shunning the ones that don’t. until we all do that the bad bosses will continue to win……..
dj@212
Where is the nickle now?
Chuck @ 214
“Where is the nickle now?”
I am not exactly sure what you are asking. If you what to know how the revenue generated was (and is) being used, check out the quarterly report at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/accountability/
cg@213–
Do I sense that you are about to offer your nemisis John a job in your company???? I would make any offer contingent upon a credit check!!
cg is right….when you go to a doctor or hospital and your insurance company rejects the claim, you are responsible. Most Doctors offer cash discounts at the door. Some doctors and hospitals are known to work with you in situations like this where you thought the Insurance Company should and would pay. Did you try settling with the hospital for say 50% of the balance due???
I’d like to hear John’s logic about why the Hospital should eat 100% of the uninsured balance. What did they do??
Hell, when folks use a CPA and they owe taxes….shouldn’t they still pay the CPA??
mr.cynical….very funny. no job……..unless he is a bio chemist who specializes in proteomics??? and then yes, we could talk.
on the hospital comments….hospitals will usually work with people if they can’t pay right away.unfortunately they are beginning to act more and more like the HMO’s…..
dj; if 520 ain’t in the plan then why does the #1 agency spending the money put it at the top of their web page???
You saying the bill and the workers on it are disconnected? Wow, our DOT is even more screwed up than I thought.
@218
Because 520 is an important dot project.
You act like every single project done by WSDOT is mentioned in the bill…. It doesn’t work that way.
WSDOT and the Legislature’s priorities don’t even have to match in the least.
FYI – currently we pay the 4th highest state gas tax in the country. We pay 28 cents, Wisconsin pays 29.1 cents, Pennsylvania pay 30 cents, and Rhode Island pays 31 cents. Adding another 9 cents (or whatever) per gallon will make us FAR AND AWAY the leader is gas tax (as long as the other remain about the same). I am not so sure this is the way to pay for this, admittedly much needed, infrastructure improvement. Are we saying there is no way the state can cut other costs or projects?
@ 216 and 217
Your collective reading comprehension is highly suspect probably due to the ideological blinders you both wear.
The insurance company actually defended me against the hospital because of a contract between the two. The contract stipulates that the insurance company is to be consulted when a subcriber is about to be admitted through the emergency room. The hospital refused to do this even after I suggested this to them, therefore they didn’t get paid.
Ghost of course thinks I’m a moral pariah because I didn’t promptly reach into my own pocket when the insurance company dodged the bill even after paying 40% of the premiums to those jerks!
Well sorry folks I just don’t have an extra many thousands of dollars just lying around. If I come into a large enough windfall, I’ll contribute to the hospital.
john….i didn’t think you were a moral pariah until you made that last whiney self serving comment.okay cynical…you’re right.
are you not typing on a computer right now? do you have cable?do you you own a car? if you answered yes to any of these then you have more than enough money to start paying the hospital a small amount every month.so just because there was a “moral” loophole you think it’s okay to jump right through it? there are people that actually need free services, and you obviously aren’t one of them.
pariah? no…..
mooch….yes.
windie; what a screwed up state; You tell us to have faith in the legistlature and in DOT, yet the 2 can’t even get their story straight.
I’ll bet the guy running Starbucks down the street knows what Howard Schultz wants, or guy flipping burgers at McD’s ..
cg—
A friend of mine was the head of the Parole Board in another state for 16 years. I showed him some of John’s comments. He said he thought he had heard everything from the hundreds of criminals and con-men that came before him pleading for early release. Now there is John’s comments…..which rise to the very top of the dungheap.
John…congrats. Your whining and excuses place you ahead of murderers, rapists and con-men. Why are you venting about this on a Blog??? Seems kind of kooky? You either pay your debts…or you don’t. Good luck.
mr.cynical….well, i tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt knowing that sometimes insurance and hospitals are tricky. but ,as you said, he’s obviously just a mooch. what ever happened to people being ashamed of being mooches????
oh…that’s right…they turned into liberals so they didn’t have to feel bad about it anymore….because as the liberals have told us so many times FEELINGS ARE FACTS. not…….
Cynical and Ghost – So let me get this straight… you guys are attacking a guy who was in the hospital and has a large hospital bill????? What a class act you two are….
(Goldy, the level of discourse has noticeable dropped on this blog)
fire_one–
John has whined about and tried to justify his personal conduct on this Blog for months. I’ve never said one word about it until today….but it got to the point where it was so obvious after several hundred comments John made that John feels guilty about this. John never said he COULDN’T pay this bill….John said he WOULDN’T. Fine. Whatever. It’s John’s deal. I just know when someone goes that overboard on a fucking Blog for months on end…it’s beyond boardline crazy.
So John–STFU!!!!!!!!!! Now it’s over…see!
fire_one—you LEFTIST PINHEADS sure stick together thru thick and deadbeat don’t you!
righton @ 218
“if 520 ain’t in the plan then why does the #1 agency spending the money put it at the top of their web page???”
Because when the DOT prioritizes projects based on the criteria specified in the legislative act, 520 ranks highly.
“You saying the bill and the workers on it are disconnected? Wow, our DOT is even more screwed up than I thought.”
Nope, I am not saying that. What is clear, however, is that your ability to have any intelligent discussion about this issue is curtailed because you refuse to educate yourself on the issue (for a start, by reading the legislative act). You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, righton! And, there is no excuse for it.
Cynical @ 227 “Fine. Whatever. It’s John’s deal.”
Really? Then do me a favor. Go into the kitchen, open the fridge, reach way in the back a get out a big ‘ol bottle of shut the fuck up….
fire_one–@229
Man…now it appears you have some issues. There are support groups in Seattle for damn never everything…..Men that dress like woman, woman that dress like men, Hemorhoid survival groups…you name it fire_one.
I suppose there is room to have one for LEFTIST PINHEADS that chronically feel the need to justify stiffing hospitals.
And probably one for you to fire_one:
LEFTIST PINHEADS who defend LEFTIST PINHEADS that chronically feel the need to justify stiffing hospitals!
cg—What is the matter with these LEFTIST PINHEADS??? Perhaps they are attempting to negotiate their ever growing gap between fantasy and reality? Between personal responsible conduct and screwing other people because they are tightass SOB’s???
My….we do have our work cut out for us. I keep praying for the arrival of the Mothership from Alpha Centaura…hoping to hear the booming voice say “John & fire_one…we’ve come to take you home. Prepare to be beamed up immediately”!!!
It’s the only hope we have cg!
Hey donk since you rely on the following for your info for WDOT:
The TPAB is comprised of 12 members:
Three citizen members, appointed by the Governor, with transportation-related expertise.
One citizen member with performance measurement expertise.
One at-large member appointed by the Governor.
The State Auditor or his designee.
One member of the Washington State Transportation Commission.
Four members of the Washington State Legislature, 2 each from the House Transportation Committee and the Senate Transportation Committee or their designees.
The Legislative Auditor, who serves as the ex-officio non-voting member.
I have some stock I want to sell you from Rufus Inc. The financials have been audited. The audit commitee consist of the following:
Three citizen members, appointed by Rufus.
One citizen member with performance measurement expertise.
One at-large member appointed by the Rufus.
An independant auditor paid by Rufus.
One member of Rufus Inc.
Four members of Rufus’s family, 2 from his imediate householed and his mother and father in law.
And Alice our maid for just shits and giggles.
Initial offering is going at $1000.00 a share. Come all you donks this is as good as gold.
dj; wanna go toe to toe on the route and schedule for 520? How many engineers on the project have you interviewed?
I may not read every bill, but then again I’m normal. I drive every day, take the bus 1x a week, travel to cities w/ good roads and transit, and yeah, this place is busted.
Good job not articulating what this bill is for; exactly why we’ll overturn it.
This bill is just a general tax increase to benefit a stupid and wasteful DOT.
Of course building roads and/or transit is just a way to help unions or contractors, not often to help us commuters
Hey John– You say that you could pay a mcdical bill. Well do I have a deal for you. Have you ever considered investing in Rufus Inc. I have audited financial to back it up.. please see 231 for details.
Correction 233
I meant to say could not pay a medical bill.
Three citizen members, appointed by the Governor, with transportation-related expertise.
One citizen member with performance measurement expertise.
One at-large member appointed by the Governor.
The State Auditor or his designee.
One member of the Washington State Transportation Commission.
Four members of the Washington State Legislature, 2 each from the House Transportation Committee and the Senate Transportation Committee or their designees.
The Legislative Auditor, who serves as the ex-officio non-voting member.
Sounds like it’s quite a bit more independent than a lot of the auditing that goes on in the corporate world. Thanks for providing another example of DOT doing a good job of managing itself. That along with its project delivery record shows they are one of the few agencies that we can legitimately point to as doing a good job with our tax dollars.
Considering that this is the case, why are you complaining?
This bill is just a general tax increase to benefit a stupid and wasteful DOT.
Again: downtown Bellevue, ONE YEAR ahead of schedule, $25 million under budget. 12 completed Nickel projects: 8 were early, 1 late, 3 on time. 6 were under budget, 1 over, and 5 on budget.
Can you please provide some evidence of how DOT is being stupid and wasteful?
Of course building roads and/or transit is just a way to help unions or contractors, not often to help us commuters
Lemme get this straight: building roads doesn’t help commuters? What?! What the hell do you think does help commuters? Closing roads? Good God. No wonder you are opposed to a gas tax increase: you’re a fucking idiot.
Bax–
How about the $60 million WSDOT pissed away on the Pt. Angeles graving yard for building pontoons for the Hood Canal Bridge???
$60 million GONE and no one was fired or held accountable. A bunch of circle-jerking bureaucratic meatheads all pointing fingers at some consultant they paid $7,000 to. IMPRESSIVE when it comes to owning up to screw-ups Bax.
So Bax…you want us to just rollover and accept having the highest gas tax in the nation BY 25% and not ask a lot of questions and demand a little more in the accountability department than there self-prepared Gray Sheets??? Gimmee a break numbnuts.
From a Brookings Institution Report:
http://www.brookings.edu/es/ur.....gastax.htm
Findings
A study of the collection, allocation, and use of federal and state taxes on motor fuels— the “gas tax”—in recent decades finds that:
* More than one-third of the $133 billion in total U.S. revenue available for highway spending in 2001 came from federal and state gas taxes. State gas taxes alone made up 21.6 percent of all highway revenues that year. The state gas tax is also the largest single source of highway funding for the states.
* After years of steady growth, federal and state gas tax receipts have plateaued in the late 1990s. When accounting for inflation, federal and state gas tax revenues are actually declining.
* Twenty-eight states have raised their gas tax rates since 1992, but only three raised it enough to keep pace with inflation. Although the average state gas tax rate increased by 8.7 percent, in real terms, the average gas tax rate declined by about 14 percent. In other words, many states do not have the same buying power they did in 1991.
* Thirty states restrict the use of their gas tax revenues to highway purposes only. Such restrictions limit states’ ability to finance mass transit, congestion and air quality improvement projects, and other options not related to highways.
* The distribution of the gas tax within some states appears to penalize cities and urban areas. In several states, urban areas act as “donor regions.” These areas contribute significantly more in tax receipts than they receive in allocations from their state’s highway fund or through direct local transfers.
Bax-
Are you interested in investing in Rusus Inc. Come on.. My auditors are just as independant as the WDOT auditors. It is a gold mine. What dya say Bax.
Being under budget: HA, laughing on the floor….you let me set the budget, and I”ll get it every day (and do).
Wanna buy a bridge?
* After years of steady growth, federal and state gas tax receipts have plateaued in the late 1990s. When accounting for inflation, federal and state gas tax revenues are actually declining.
WARNING: Whenever you see the phrase “When accounting for inflation” you need to define the rate.
BR – What is the rate of inflation?
increased by 8.7 percent, in real terms, the average gas tax rate declined by about 14 percent. In other words, many states do not have the same buying power they did in 1991.
BR – What is the rate of inflation?
distribution of the gas tax within some states appears to penalize cities and urban areas. In several states, urban areas act as “donor regions.” These areas contribute significantly more in tax receipts than they receive in allocations from their state’s highway fund or through direct local….
BR– What is your definition of “fair distribution of gas tax revenue” ie– mile of roads? sidewalks? bikepaths? brigdes per 100 sq miles?
righton @ 240 writes
“Being under budget: HA, laughing on the floor….you let me set the budget, and I”ll get it every day (and do). Wanna buy a bridge?”
Oh dear, has righton exposed another weakness in his knowledge of the way our State works? It seems he does not understand how project costs are calculated. Yet, he feel free to pontificate. What a jackass.
Rufus @ 241
“What is the rate of inflation?”
There are a few standard (as in, commonly accepted) inflation indicies. To learn about them, google “inflation calculator” and look for the explanations. The interesting thing is that it usually makes little difference what index is being used.
Rufus @ 241
“What is your definition of “fair distribution of gas tax revenue” ie– mile of roads? sidewalks? bikepaths? brigdes per 100 sq miles?”
How about dollars collected in a county versus dollars spent from that revenue stream in the same county.
For example, I believe KC has recieves something like $0.70 for every dollar collected in gas tax (if I recall the figure correctly).
Hello.
If I may make a point that I believe has been overlooked in the fight to stop the initiative? A couple weeks ago, the head of the WSDOT was on either Dori Monson’s show or Dave Ross’s show and he brought up to interesting facts:
1: The Viaduct is NOT “going to fall apart any second now,” as people for the tax increase are often heard saying. He said it was good for at LEAST 15-20 more years.
2: (And this is the big one) When he was asked why would there have to be another tax increase for the fixing of the viaduct if the new tax was supposedly paying for it, he answered that the money earmarked for the Viaduct was ENOUGH to replace it with another Viaduct. The problem is that it will NOT cover the tunnel Mayor Nickels and the Seattle City Council want instead.
(I think that is accurate. Goldy, you may want to get the scoop on this from the head guy himself.) So here is my proposal to get at least a lot of urban Seattle voters who would vote for the initiative to really think about not letting it pass:
The people have to start pressuring the Mayor and Council to get over the tunnel and to think practically. Have them promise the people that they will go for the practical option and not raise any extra taxes instead of the foolhardy path they are currently taking. I know this will conflict with both their egos and their promises to their waterfront buddies, but sometimes the best solutions are the hardest to do.
Second, people against the initiative have got to STOP acting like Chicken Little running around screamin “THE VIADUCT IS FALLING!! THE VIADUCT IS FALLING!!!” It may not be in pristine condition, but it is still fully functional. When you act like a bunch of doomsayers, people will start to ignore you with a real quickness. Think of it this way, if the Viaduct is REALLY as bad as people like to proclaim it is, THEN JUST CONDEMN IT ALREADY!!! Declare it a potential disaster and demolish it, or better yet, have it fall and declare it an emergancy and get the Federal Gov. to step in with diaster relief. The sad fact is that it isn’t about the condition of the Viaduct, but rather how much money can be made if a tunnel is built instead. And they do not seem to realize that the populace KNOWS this, and will object to the gas tax because of this.
These are just my suggestions that I thought of as I have been reading about the pros and cons of this initiative. While as of right now I will vote for 912, I had to be honest and give this info out so there can be a true debate, not more schoolyard yelling. I hope it is helpful.
Domo.
Cynical – such anger, such vitriole. are you okay? I wasn’t aware you worked as a bill collector… Such an honorable profession. moron…
How about the $60 million WSDOT pissed away on the Pt. Angeles graving yard for building pontoons for the Hood Canal Bridge???
Okay. Everything I’ve read says that it’s entirely unclear that there was any way for DOT to avoid this. I suppose they may have been able to, but it’s just as likely that they couldn’t. Do you have some information that the media doesn’t? Feel free to present it here.
Fire_one…
“This is your mothership calling from your home planet, Alpha Centaura. PREPARE TO BE BEEMED UP IMMEDIATELY! You seem to be melting comrade from too much exposure to LEFTIST PINHEAD Bullshit. We are monitoring your brainwaves. They are virtually non-existent and have been in this critical state for months now. PREPARE TO BE BEEMED UP…NOW!”
Bax; only a state agency could spend $60mm on a place to pour concrete, and that’s not the full cost, just what they’d spent before digging up some graves.. You can build enourmous buildings for 1/5th of that price, unless of course the state writes a blank check.
Cynical – Look, I understand you are busy as a WalMart Greeter, but you really need to see someone about that anger. This is just a blog, not real life… (what a waste of DNA…)
fire_one–
You have outted me!! I enjoy my job as a greeter at the Shelton Wal-mart. REAL PEOPLE shop there….not arrongant, elitist LEFTIST PINHEADS like you. Occassionally we have Assholes like you drive up in their BMW’s wearing your Tommy Hilfiger shorts and Tommy Bahama shirt looking down your nose at the very people you claim to feel pain for. We can spot you a mile away fire_one.
Just a suggestion–
Be sure to wash any of the fruit & produce you purchase here with Pine-sol. Pine-sol is much less toxic than the shit we smear on your grapes when you ain’t looking!
Left Behind: Not only is your commentary eye opening, but no lefty who wants the gas tax will address it. You are so right about the overreaching actions of the Seattle City Council. Why don’t they create a bond for this “tunnel”? Why don’t they say we need to create a tax solely for this “tunnel”? Why don’t they approach the federal government and ask for matching funds for this “tunnel”? Because they know the city folk will go ballistic with another tax. Because they think they can hoist another tax on the WA populace! Because in the words of Mr. Cynical, our retired CPA, they are LEFTIST PINHEADS”.
Cynical: Fire_one is on our side. You should lay off of him. He has made some wonderful attacks against the HA lefties before. John’s commentary on his hospital bill are strange, but then again John’s commentary on many things is strange. I just let it pass.
Fire_one: Cynical is reacting to another lefty at the free money tit, that’s all. It has nothing to do with John’s illness. If someone is ill needing hospitalization, no one should go without. Anyone who has a life threatening disease and needs medical help should be able to get it. They should pay if they have insurance or are financially set to afford it from their own pockets. What happened to John causes all people to pay higher medical bills.
fire_one @ 220
“currently we pay the 4th highest state gas tax in the country. We pay 28 cents, Wisconsin pays 29.1 cents, Pennsylvania pay 30 cents, and Rhode Island pays 31 cents. Adding another 9 cents (or whatever) per gallon will make us FAR AND AWAY the leader is gas tax (as long as the other remain about the same).”
But, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania both have state income taxes, too (I don’t know about RI). The fact is, fire_one, Washington State tax burden is ranked 24 out of 50 states. We are not over-taxed, but our tax system works significantly differently from most other states because we don’t have an income tax.
We used to have a car-tab tax funding a big chunck of transportation. (That tax at least placed a higher burden on those with more expensive cars, so didn’t hit the poor as hard as the gas tax). Unfortunately, that tax was dismantled in response to an initiative in 1999. Transportation has been underfunded since then, and now the problem is becoming critical.
That lost revenue must be made up somehow so that we can keep maintaining our roads, provide safety upgrades to dangerous sections of roadways, reduce congestion, keep the ferry system running, and maybe even build new roads (although this is the lowest priorty item).
The first prioirty for the “special projects” chunk of the gas tax goes to safety improvements based on accident records and fatal accident records. If the tax gets overturned, our state roadways will not get these safety improvement. They will remain more dangerous and more people will be injured or die in traffic accidents.
The anti-tax proponents focus on the SR520 and the AWV, but that is a complete mischaracterisation of the legislative act. It is worth looking over the actual act.
mr. cynical……what is wrong with these lefties anyway? god….where to begin. oh, wait , i already blew it …i said “god”. heh heh heh
no sense of humor-itis, taking themselves way too seriously, lack of education, lack of work ethic, lack of morals….the only thing they don’t lack in is a great big sense of entitlement.
they live on the public mammary…..it’s their LIFE.LOL.
and , in this state, i have noticed that they haven’t been anywhere else in the world but are willing to take moveon.commie’s word for how it really is.
they are total guppies…..honestly i have never met so many overly opinionated yet incredibly stupid people anywhere else. this place has them all.
have you ever tried hiring anyone here?
the first thing out of their mouths is how much will i get [for just sitting on my ass holding down my corner of the building lest gravity should fail?]
when can i take my first vacation[as in…i was planning on front loading this perk]
and the ever favorite….”WHAT? i have to actually work 40 hours?????”
and just look at john’s comments. HE’S A VICTIM, BABY.
he shouldn’t have to actually PAY for the hospital services… he’s special. he’s in washington….he doesn’t have to . and if anyone tries to make him…well, they must be horrible horrible people that are just out to get him.
it couldn’t be that he is nothing more than a big piker that is ripping people off, right? but if he tried to steal from one of the lefties store’s….do you think they would think that was okay?
okay…that was trick question. a leftie owning a real business? nooooo…that would take work. they would rather be someone’s nightmare employee that plays on his computer all day ,accomplishes nothing, and then bitches that they don’t get paid enough.
what john did was stealing…period. he has not tried to make it right…and now you can see the other lefties ‘defending’ his behavior. he was driven to it.
cg—
Alas….there is only one solution for the “perpetually needy” LEFTIST PINHEADS that for some strange reason proudly call Seattle their home and that is…..(drum roll)
Officially declare Seattle not only it’s own State….but it’s own seperate COUNTRY!!!
And since they remind us of the old Soviet Union (what with their famous Fremont statue of you-know who and all) AND because of all their LEFTIST PINHEADED brain farts and fuzzy visioning…
A perfect name for the new Country where Seattle once was IS>>>>
ABSURDISTAN!!!
Cynical et al, what a class act you two are…
I think you are upset only because your president is about to be impeached. But you will get over it….
mr. cynical….absurdistan..oh, god, i love that. that is a classic.
fire_one[any relation to “sparky”?]….impeached???? oh…ha ha ha ha ha……
wow…thank you so much for that laugh……had to wipe the tears from my eyes…that was GOOD.
Car drivers have been giving a free ride to long. It is time they pay for what they use. Stop subsidizing roads and bridges, make the drivers pay for it. So what if a little goes to non-road uses? Cars get huge subsidizes as it is. The sooner cars are priced out of existence (by making drivers pay their true cost), the better.
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