At least 33 people have died and hundreds were injured, as four explosions ripped through London’s Underground and a double-decker bus. Al-Qaeda has reportedly claimed responsibility in a statement posted to an Islamist website.
The terrorist attacks were likely timed to coincide with the G8 Summit currently taking place in Scotland.
London is perhaps my favorite city. I have walked those streets and ridden those trains and busses and have enjoyed the hospitality and friendship of Londoners… the images of death and destruction are as painfully real to me as those from New York City, where I lived for four years. So I don’t want to appear to be cynically exploiting this terrible tragedy, but, I think it is fair to ask, nearly four years after 9/11… how is the “War on Terror” going? Has the enormous amount of blood and treasure we have spent in Iraq really made us any safer? Are American cities any less vulnerable to this kind of horror than London, or any less likely to be a target? Are we seeking vengeance abroad at the expense of providing real security to our citizens at home?
Can we really defeat an international, jihadist, terrorist movement with brute force alone, or is it time reasonable people can start talking about supplementing our conventional arms with unconventional strategies — diplomacy, aid, economic development, etc. — without instantly being attacked as cowards, appeasers or traitors?
Just thought I’d ask.
You raise an excellent question. It isn’t always good to fight fire with fire. Sometimes, maybe, but a multi-pronged approach would serve us better.
Clinton tried that. We got Khobar Towers, African Embassies blons up, USS Cole and Somalia as our answer.
how is the “War on Terror” going?
Well, let’s see. Afghanistan is no longer a base of operations for the Taliban. Are there gangs there? Well yes but there are gangs in LA too. Many of the leadership of Al Qaeda has been killed or captured despite Democrats wanting us to free them from Guantanimo. FInally there have been no terrorist attacks on US soil in the four years since 911, whichis a longer period of quiet than we experienced when the Democrats wanted us to issue subpeonas and offer group therapy.
These people want us dead. So, I agree. Let’s send them some money, so they can do it sooner. Let’s talk to them, so they can kill the diplomats. Let’s build them some power generators so they have something new to blow up.
I find it frustrating that we tolerate Islamists fomenting hatred and violence in this country and in Europe. They preach death to America from the pulpit, and we react by worrying about accidently dropping the Koran on the floor.
I, for one, am not willing to negotiate with terrorists. We can’t kill them all, but that doesn’t mean we need to appease them. They want world domination. Are you suggesting we just give it to them?
Ghandi ism is a cute idea, problem is it only works when you are highly publicised and the underdog. To even unsinuate we can meet terrorism or even crime (in the case of the gangs you mentioned) with anything short of strength and imprisonment of the culprits is sheer lunacy!
FInally there have been no terrorist attacks on US soil in the four years since 911
There was an attack on U.S. soil in January: the U.S. Embassy in Iraq.
And you’re forgetting about the anthrax attacks, for which no one has been brought to justice.
Janet, apparently our leader is willing to negotiate with terrorists/insurgents/whatever you want to call them. They have as good a chance at world domination as you do. No, we can’t kill them all, so what is your endgame? What do you want to happen? Yes, they hate us. It is not because of our freedom. PBJ, do we still have an airbase in SA? Why not? Who ordered that?
TJ@6,
There was an attack on U.S. soil in January: the U.S. Embassy in Iraq.
Well if that is your standard, then the first two attacks on US soil occurred on Clinton’s watch – the tiwn towers in 1993 and the African Embassies. And prior to that the very first one occurred when the Iranian Embassy was attacked. Thanks for pointing out the Democrat track record of FAILURE when dealing with terrorists.
Wasn’t it the Democrats who all came out claiming the Anthrax attacks were the work of domestics? The anthrax attacks are a perfect example of why the Democrat sponsored “law enforcement” mentality doesn’t work.
Neverltheless, our homeland has been protected. There have been no attacks on our homeland (mainland US , alaska and hawaii). Our emabassies, while theoretically our soil, are really the propertyt of the host country in which they reside.
talk to homicide bombers? oh really….this is a surprisingly naive statement EVEN coming from you.
these people are terrorists.the only thing that should be done to them is wiping them off the face of the earth.
but let me see…every libtard on here will now say they asked for it, it’s all the US’s fault,and the jews knew in advance….but they will never blame the people responsible. islamo-facsists.
Let me clarify – If embassy attacks are the standards liberals are using then the US Embassy in Iran was the first terrorist attack on America when Carter was in office.
goldy is talking about a “multi-pronged” approach you idiots. yes, military action will be required, such as afghanistan.
however, providing ONLY a military approach to this problem is like putting a band-aid over something which needs stitches. it might stop the bleeding, but it will never solve the problem.
actually solving the problem of global terrorism will require military action when appropriate (iraq DIDN’T meet that in the beginning and now unfortunately does) and taking action against the systemic problem of extreme poverty which breeds terrorism in the first place. it will cost us money in the short term, but continuing military action will cost much more money in the long term as it will never truly solve the problem. oh yes, it will also cost us young american lives. (but remember… support the troops!)
i can’t believe how dense you people are. your guns won’t solve every problem and if you actually believe that, you are beyond help.
There was a cool article in Legal Affairs about amending the piracy laws to combat terrorist organizations.
I’m posting the link…but if the whole thing is not highlighted, cut and paste it to the browser.
This approach made sense to me.
http://www.legalaffairs.org/is.....laug05.msp
“goldy is talking about a “multi-pronged” approach you idiots. yes, military action will be required, such as afghanistan.”
We ARE taking a multi-pronged approach! We are impeding their finances (ever hear of the prosecution fo the homeland foundation Islamic “charity”?). We are tracking their activities in this country and abroad and we ar using our military.
and taking action against the systemic problem of extreme poverty which breeds terrorism in the first place.
Your assumption that somehow poverty is the cause of this is wrong. The 911 attackers mostly came from well off families. Bin Laden himself came from a family of millionaires.
Poverty doesn’t go away by writing a check (It is that feed me for a day vs for a lifetime thing). Having a free, stable society that allows people to earn a living is what helps eliminate poverty.
Goldy: “is it time reasonable people can start talking about… diplomacy, aid, economic development, etc.?”
Who, exactly, do you propose we talk to? Even when you get an agreement with one terrorist leader (e.g. PLO), that doesn’t mean that some splinter group, related group or even the group itself will follow along.
Who do you think we should give money to? The terrorists aren’t hurting for cash. And they’re not really doing this to get financial aid for “their” people. They’re simply rabid dogs who’ve been whipped up and set loose.
This is the worst kind of liberal thinking. Blame the US for terror. Goldy, you are the lowest of the low. I sincerely hope you get blown up in a terrorist attack.
Then and only then will you learn that the only way to confront terror is with force. Eastern primitivism will be vanquished by the decency and tolerance of Western Civilization, but it appears we are going to have to kill a lot of Islamic fanatics before they get the message.
The real question is how many leftist Americans have to die turning their cheeks to terror before they amass the courage to stand up to it like the majority of Americans are already doing.
Diplomacy works best when you have a really big gun pointed at the other diplomat’s head… with the safety off. It is just amazing how reasonable they suddenly get!
“Eastern primitivism will be vanquished by the decency and tolerance of Western Civilization”
wow… you get the prize for being the MOST tolerant!
“Having a free, stable society that allows people to earn a living is what helps eliminate poverty.”
and that’s certainly what we’re doing in iraq isn’t– free and stable. it’s the most stable of any country i know of!
here’s a thought.
Live by your own words and “get over” the past couple presidential elections.
Stop your Bush hating propoganda and stand behind your country and your President.
Whether you like it or not, surrendering to Al Qaeda will accomplish nothing, so we need to strengthen our resolve as opposed to the constant attacks on this administration.
Dividing our nation accomplishes absolutely nothing and whetehr you have realized it or not, terrorists attacks will happen in this country.
Last time I checked, suicide bombers don’t give a damn about left/right political offiliations. Your an American, which means you have a bulls eye on you.
now on the news they are discussing the fact that we have terror “cells” here in the US.
D-E-P-O-R-T them.and by “them” i mean everyone from the middle east that is even slightly suspicious. and then shut down all immigration to the US until all of this is over. if it takes years…so what….getting to live in this country when you are from another is a privledge NOT A RIGHT.
it’s time to stop doing exactly what they want us to. and what every “good” little liberal wants….we are PC-ing ourselves to death.if we had followed the advice of todays apologists [aka liberals] hitler would still be operating death camps.
maybe if we listen to patty murray we will all realize that all the terrorists were doing in london was clearing land FOR YET ANOTHER CHILD CARE CENTER.
You are all missing the point. Clearly this shows that because of Bush’s brilliant policies that Al Queada is in its last throws.
Re: candrewb
I’d respond, but I have no idea what you intended to say.
Yes, they hate our freedom. Look at what al-qaida does in Iraq when they take over a city. Women are forced to cover up, music ceases, “sins” are made illegal. People live in fear of being punished (probably death) for any slight.
The freedom in the US and Europe must end, and the caliphate must be put in place. That is the end game.
I was just thinking that know would be an excellent time for Goldy and his little gaggle to Burn a flag, just to show where they stand.
After all, it is your right.
no
not by a long shot is it time
The whole “stay the course” style of management is admirable and all, however, even those management types are wrong every now and then. However, when they are wrong, they end doing far more damage than most because they refuse to stop what they are doing. I remember one politician admitting there was no way to win the drug war, but morally, he could not stop trying… great. And that gets us where? Who suggested surrendering to Al Qaeda? How about tripling our presence in Afghanistan and ignoring Pakistan’s politcal concerns so we can finally track the bastards down.
and one of the libtard’s favorite idiots chirps in…..
“McDermott says Seattle is smarter, more politically astute and better read than most of the country. “Goldberg can talk about me if he wants, but don’t attack my city,” he said.”
HA HA HA…….he is kidding, right? people in seattle CAN READ?
they sure can’t ADD.
“his city”…home of the original skid row.
if i were the FBI and looking for terror cells i would be looking in seattle or the people’s republic of portland…home of the second dumbest people in the US [second only to seattle]…..
candrewb
Why stop there?
Why not just declare war on Islam?
Janet, the caliphate is not in Iraq. Don’t confuse the two.
“Why not just declare war on Islam?”
yes…why not?
candrewb@25
It is like the famous democratic theory, we have to do something for the poor so we create a welfare system that feeds itself and is almost impossible in many cases to get out of and be self supportive…but by god we are doing something that makes us feel good!
christmasghost
No argument here.
Chuck, you must have me confused for one of those.. what do you call them, bleeding heart panty wastes? This thread isn’t about the Great Society.
I say if Britain catches these people, they should tell the EU to go ahead and expell them, bring back the death penalty. Then when they find the camps where these terrorists were trained, send in the RAF to bomb them. The French are not that spineless, they have rose up, but only when French Peacekeepers came under fire in the Ivory Coast. They retaliated, by shooting down the Ivory Coast Air Force.
The wingnuts are in force this morning. I’ve never heard so much nonsense.
A war against Islam? Why not a war against Christianity because some of them bomb birth control clinics?
More canards about flag-burning, Murray and McDermott. Sigh… Every winger playing to script.
Terror cells in Seattle and the peoples republic of Portland? Utah awaits, xmas. Feel safer.
Well it appears the “flypaper strategy” has worked so far for the U.S. but it appears to have failed for the moment in Great Britain. Does anyone think they feel any safer now for the blood and treasure they’ve spent in Iraq?
i have now heard several prominant world leaders make the same statement. these terrorists do not represent the good muslim people in the world. really? and just how do they know that? do you hear any of the good muslim people or countries speaking out or showing sympathy for england? did you hear any after 9/11?
no…
maybe it’s time to stop being so PC and just admit that powerful “good” muslims that don’t want to see the western world get theirs are about as common as chicken teeth.
God save the souls lost in England. My prayers are for them.
How the “war on terror” going? Well let’s see…
We were attacked by a group whose leader has consistently slipped past our best fighters.
We focused our resources on fighting a ‘retaliation’ war based on lies and bullshit info that you all bought into.
Lest we forget (in our shortsighted society) that our real enemy is right under our noses, trained and informed by ourselves, and is effectively running a patient campaign of fear.
We’re all fools if we believe that their jihad is as short-lived as our attention span. These folks will dedicate their lives to plan, organize and wait until we’ve slipped back into our stupor then catch us sleeping.
Today’s massacre, coupled with the attacks in France, shows a prime example of basic weakness. Weaknesses they will exploit in any way possible. They have the upper hand because we let them into our countries, blather our intentions all over the media, and communicate where we’re weakest. Do any of you think for a moment our enemy is not studying every aspect surrounding their attacks? They have proven over and over they are very knowledgeable, organized and vast.
In time we will suffer from our arrogance. They are watching, listening, learning and adjusting their methods for effectiveness. What’s next when the smoke clears? Hospitals? Costco? Professional sports? Some might call me paranoid because of this view. I believe that this “war” has only just begun. Just because we fight a war of our own making, doesn’t mean were in control of the game. Were on the defensive, which is the worst position to be in.
All we can do is react…and our National Forces are spread thin like butter across the globe. If this were Risk, were poised to get our asses handed to us.
God save the souls lost in England. My prayers are for them.
pbj @ 3
“Many of the leadership of Al Qaeda has been killed or captured despite Democrats wanting us to free them from Guantanimo.”
Of course, for every terrorist we have killed or captured, the actions of the U.S. in disrespecting Islam and the souvernity of nations have recruited 10 more terrorists.
“FInally there have been no terrorist attacks on US soil in the four years since 911, whichis a longer period of quiet than we experienced when the Democrats wanted us to issue subpeonas and offer group therapy”
Of course, if Bush hadn’t let pride get in his way, and carried on with Clinton’s strategy for dealing with Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, 9/11 probably wouldn’t have happened. . . .
pbj@3: Prior to 9/11 the last foreign terrorist attack was the one 1n Feb 26, 1993 when a car bomb exploded in an underground garage. Under President Bill Clinton’s administration, the US went EIGHT years without an attack on a foreign terrorist attack on US soil.
pbj@10: The Iranian Embassy wasn’t the first to be attacked, not by a long shot. Embassies have been targets since the 60’s. In the early 70’s, 1972-74 time frame as I recall, terrorists besieged the embassy in the Sudan, and killed US Ambassador Cleo Noel and I think a few others. I suspect you may be too young to remember that.
Marilyn
john……..you know, i realize that you aren’t even capable of understanding this situation.but maybe this will clear it up for you a bit.if christians from america and europe were living in the middle east in large numbers and trying to destroy their culture by bombing the living shit out of innocents, making statements like “we will not rest until we have wiped out all muslims and every country is christian”…..i would REALLY REALLY understand if the muslim countries nuked us….or at least wanted to.
and on a side note…try to think about this……..
do you know who is really against finding an alternative to “big oil”?
yeah….the people in the middle east. once we find a substitute for petroleum products they will sink back into the nothing-ness they were in before the oil boom.
so as a good liberal why don’t you attack the real people that don’t want to see an alternative fuel, hmmmmmm?
aren’t you the loser that drives the oil burning beater volvo while whining about big oil???
you stand up for people who kill innocents to get attention, brutalize women [ but you are PRO CHOICE], destroy ancient cultures artwork [think afghanistan] and are truly criminals….but you march with your comrades holding signs that read “bush is a war criminal”.
you are truly the king of the idiots……..
xmas
I have to disagree with you. In fact locally, at the International fountain after 9-11, there were roughly 3 dozen Muslims in full native dress handing out flowers for people to place at the fountain, and expressing their deepest sympathies for what happened.
It was hard to see. Harder even to not get angry or judgmental. Come-on, you’re smarter than that. Implying all Muslims are terrorists is like saying all Christians are bible thumping morons!
Janet S @ 4
”I find it frustrating that we tolerate Islamists fomenting hatred and violence in this country and in Europe.”
That is because you are a fucking bigot!
”They preach death to America from the pulpit, and we react by worrying about accidently dropping the Koran on the floor.”
No, Janet S, they don’t Islam is one of the worlds biggest religions—nearly all of the 1 billion Muslims universally reject killing innocent people. Try to get it into your thick bigoted skull that the terrorists are a very small minority. The world has Christian terrorists, Hindu terrorists, and Buddhists terrorists running around killing people, too. In each, it is an extremist minority that are guilty of crimes.
”I, for one, am not willing to negotiate with terrorists. We can’t kill them all, but that doesn’t mean we need to appease them. They want world domination.”
No, they don’t want world domination. What? You do not even know what originally motivated Bin Laden? Holy shit, Janet S, shouldn’t you just keep you mouth shut until you learn something?
And, before you start complaining about the language, let me make a preemptive strike: “Go fuck yourself(*), Janet S.” You have earned the contempt.
(*) Special thanks to the President of the Senate for this inspiration
dj @38 said…”Of course, for every terrorist we have killed or captured, the actions of the U.S. in disrespecting Islam and the souvernity of nations have recruited 10 more terrorists.”
disrespecting islam???? so we are dissing islam? wow…are you going by gansta justice now?
islam means nothing……the muslims have defined themselves by the crap they allow.
now they will reap what they sowed…….sadly.
xmas @ 40
That was rich.. really rich.. Believe me I’d love to go into that more with you but unfortunately I’ve run out of time.
Remember Utah awaits. Feel safer.
Oh and pay a visit to that developer fella in Family City, USA. He thinks he can buy anything!
DamnageD@ 41….
wow….a whole three dozen??? and where were the religious leaders? world leaders?
the palestinians were celebrating with flowers too…only they were celebrating what happened to us.
and dj…..you are too stupid for words, and much too stupid to bother with.
maybe here is a new idea for stopping all this.
“stop the attacks or mecca gets it.”
ala…the bunny threat…….
Xmas
It doesn’t sit well with me either, the Muslim community that is. If you look back at history, the Christians and Muslims have been fighting bloody wars. Now we have let then become a part of our “community”, and folks are too damn PC (read chicken-shit pussies) to stand up and call these folks out.
Like I was saying above, there were Muslims present and sympathetic after 9-11…but looking into their eyes, it was hard to see if they were sincere, or playing into a larger game. After all, the best place to hide from your enemy is right under their nose.
john…..so they actually do enforce the time limit on phone calls in jail?
wow…impressive…….LOL.
Mark @14,
Amongst ourselves.
Goldy Loves Terror @15,
Apparently, in your opinion, the answer is “no”… we should not be able to talk reasonably about this issue. Well, fuck you.
Ghost @everywhere,
So I guess following your generalizations about Muslims, I would be safe in saying that all Christians are Jew-killers?
@ 46
DamnageD that is so wrong. The muslim community in this country is watched very closely. Hell, I live near a mosque and I’m damn sure it’s watch 24/7 by homeland security.
Looking into their eyes?!? Give me a freakin’ break. They were scared out of their wits about being victimized by unthinking winger mob frenzy. It’s not like there wasn’t anti-muslim sentiment in this country to being with. A few of them did get killed remember?
Some muslim aliens who didn’t have their papers straight were incarcerated for as long as two years before being deported.
In New Jersey some of these aliens they were subjected to beatings and dog attacks. NPR did a story on them. Google it.
@ 47
rolls eyes..
DamnageD….i completely agree with you. after 9/11 i was constantly reminding people that what happened here WAS NOT the fault of muslims here.
but they didn’t step up to the plate to defend us, and the country they were benefiting from……..
so maybe…like every unwelcome houseguest…they should go home.
I think it’s safe to say that the leftists world views will be all but ignored for at least the next 6 months.
All of you are unable to fathom the course of your failed ideas, despite what history teaches you about dealing with terror.
Goldy, think it through. Unconventional strategies?
Diplomacy? With whom? Do we contact Osama? Zarqawi? Do we seek each individual cell and it’s members and try to talk them down?
Aid? To whom and with who’s money? Do we pay Iran because Egyptian nationals are forming terror cells? How about Saudis, do we give them aid when they are already rich with oil money, that they often don’t use to help their own people, on the hopes that somehow this will appease terror?
Economic development? Where, do we revitalize the whole Middle East at US Taxpayer expense? Do we start with one country and risk upsetting the Terrorists more with our presence, or making them jealous and more angry because we picked the wrong coountry to start with?
You are a naive fool. You are a progessive that believes in the redistribution of wealth. Of taking from the rich, the US taxpayer, and giving to the poor. It’s no surprise that you would suggest apeassement as a course of action.
When you got beat up on the playground as a kid in Philly, did you go to the bully and try to negotiate with him to stop beating you up? Did you propose to give him all your lunch money each day as extortion payments to get him to stop? Did you try to tattle on him to the teachers hoping that they would always be there to come running to your aid when he was about to beat you up again? Or did you stand up and give him a swift blow to the face, that might have gotten you beat up a little, but at least convinced him to think twice before picking on you again? And I know with that whiny squeaky voice you got beat up often.
You are a coward. You don’t understand that you can’t negotiate with people who are trained in exclusive schools and brainwashed every day to think that our freedom, secular tolerance, enjoyment of human beauty, celebration of wealth and achivement are bad. Do you really think these people are tuned in to the subtleties of diplomacy or foreign aid? This is blind hatred. Hatred of our good for being good.
The only way to confront such hatred is to squash it before it squashes you. These people are an intellectual virus that threatens the lives of all other humans who are willing to coexist peacefully despite differences of opinion. They must be quarantined just like any other contagious population, and destroyed.
I do sincerely hope that you or someone you love experiences a loss due to terror so that you can experience first hand the price of backing down. Only then might you reconsider the consequences of your failed ideas. Reasoning with you never seeme to work.
John @ 49.
They may want to convert
Goldy Loves Terror
Bravo!
Well said.
Obviously you children didn’t read Goldy’s post — he asked “is it time reasonable people can start talking…”
I rarely get snippy but what an assinine post Goldy. Everything you asked about trying has been tried ad-nauseum in the past and it only allowed these organizations to fester and strengthen.
You bomb us we give you a concession or a voice at a table? Wow. So if my 5 year old hits his friend I should…..
Items 1 and 2 work best to deter future action. Item 3 helps us understand why something happened. Item 4 says it’s ok to do this again. Pretty much you are advocating 4 because in the liberal world we should never, ever, have to use 1 or 2 due to the fact that bad behavior is always caused by some exterior force and not the fact that some people are inatetly evil.
Ghost @everywhere,
So I guess following your generalizations about Muslims, I would be safe in saying that all Christians are Jew-killers?
Comment by Goldy— 7/7/05 @ 12:17 pm
well, goldy, if we were to follow UBL’s line of thinking i guess we could say that the jews killed “god”.
oh get real…you can do better than that.
name some prominent muslim leaders that people listen to that have called these people on the carpet…….
tick tock…waiting……..
ChristmasGhost@36
i have now heard several prominant world leaders make the same statement. these terrorists do not represent the good muslim people in the world. really? and just how do they know that? do you hear any of the good muslim people or countries speaking out or showing sympathy for england? did you hear any after 9/11?”
I see, christmasghost, that you are a fucking bigot, too. In fact, one of the first countries to offer sympathy for the U.S. on 9/11 was none other than the (quasi)government of Afghanistan. Did you forget that?
”maybe it’s time to stop being so PC and just admit that powerful “good” muslims that don’t want to see the western world get theirs are about as common as chicken teeth.”
You are one fucked up asshole—and you have no idea what you are talking about when it come to Islam.
And, before you start complaining about the language, let me make a preemptive strike: “Go fuck yourself(*), christmasghost.” You have earned the contempt.
(*) Special thanks to the President of the Senate for this inspiration
Here’s a great example of how the Cheney administration handles the WOT:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/d.....004_pg7_42
I’m soooooo glad the grownups are in charge. yeah, those guys probably weren’t important any way. It was much more important for chimpy to be imbecile in chief.
Porter Goss said he knows the location of Osma. Bush declines to go after him. Breaks his promise when he said there would be no safe haven for terrorist.
RECONCILE THAT!!
Goldy Loves Terror……BINGO. and if something like this personally affected goldy or one of his cronies he would want BLOOD.
typical liberal….no empathy, he can only relate if it happens to HIM and affects HIS world.
Can you imagine FDR not going after Hilter?
Bush is “Unfit for Command”
He is a FAILURE in executing his solem duty as Commander in Chief and the office of the Presidency.
Hey, dj, you must be off the meds. Try being rational.
Islam and Islamists are different. I will take Muslims at their word that they are peaceful and condemn what a small group are doing in the name of their religion. My anger is at the Islamists who are bent on converting all to their way of living through terrorism. They are doing it in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, the Phillipines.
Okay, I give up. What originally motivated Osama bin Laden?
dj…you are way too stupid to even recognize the irony in what you said, aren’t you? “one of the first governments to extend sympathy to us was afghanistan”
oh, that is really rich. do you realize that all your little liberal friends are cringing right now?
afghanistan.UBL’s temporary “HOMELAND” the country with all the terrorist training camps……..too rich, really.
a bigot? no,actually i’m not. i’m just very observant.
your PC is blinding you again.
Like most narrow minded conservatives on this blog they feel that as long as we’re not being attacked here the war is going great.
Al Qaida is gaining steam as evidenced by the escalating terrorist attacks worldwide for the last 4 years since 9/11. Read the US State Departments reports.
When the next attack occurs here I wonder what EXCUSES these same conservatives will except and defend from the White House?
Bush = FAILED leader.
Christmasghost @ 43
“so we are dissing islam? wow…are you going by gansta justice now?”
Let me try to be very clear, ’cause you don’t seem to make much use of your brain. Many terrorists wishing the U.S. ill are Muslims. There are also secular terrorists who resent the U.S. steamrolling through Iraq. So, you propose exterminating a billion Muslims for the handful that hate us? And, perhaps, another billion non-religious people because they have dark skin, are shorter than us, and speak a funny language? What a fucking monster you are! Is this your “culture of life?”
“islam means nothing……the muslims have defined themselves by the crap they allow. now they will reap what they sowed…….sadly. “
Almost all Muslims are peaceful people who respect human life regardless of religion. And you would wipe out a billion such folks? Wow. . . your a real culture of lifer, aren’t you, you fucking piece of shit. The only people that need to be put down are fucking murderous assholes like you, who have no respect for life or people’s right to believe as they wish.
GBS @ 60,
Porter Goss is full of shit and so are you.
DJ @ 67:
Maybe the japanese intern camps are something we have to apologize for now, but they did work.
we should start thinking in this direction.
Goldy Loves Terror said: “I do sincerely hope that you or someone you love experiences a loss due to terror so that you can experience first hand the price of backing down. Only then might you reconsider the consequences of your failed ideas. Reasoning with you never seeme to work. ”
Wow. Quite Christian and compassionate of you. I can’t believe you seriously believe that. I might HATE Bush and the extreme right, but I never would wish them harm or death.
You’re NO better than those that preach the hatred of Islamic terrorism.
You people are the most biggoted assholes ever. Please, keep posting. The more and more you do, the smaller and smaller your base of support will be.
grznt,
um…. we have a lrager base of support than you. Today just increased it ten fold.
Nice work PRR very insightful. I may be full of shit, but I’m not Bush’s handpicked man to run the CIA and protect America.
Now how do you reconcile your support for the leader of our country who has decided to let Osama remain alive?
christmasmurder @ 65
“dj…you are way too stupid to even recognize the irony in what you said, aren’t you? “one of the first governments to extend sympathy to us was afghanistan”
oh, that is really rich. do you realize that all your little liberal friends are cringing right now?”
Hey, idiot, this is simply fact! I’ve heard the neocons spin this as a PR stunt, etc., but it is an undeniable fact. That you find this hard to swollow show that (1) you didn’t pay attention or (2) you were brainwashed into forgetting this. The Bush administration started spinning Afganistan==Al Qaeda right after 9/11. I see you bought into it without any critical thought. The political reality in Afganistan on 9/10 was very different from that. But, don’t let reality get in the way of your simple little equation.
It’s worth debating exactly what our strategy should be to use force to confront terror. Maybe we should be in Iran instead of Iraq, etc. But backing down, or using diplomacy, or aid, etc. is beyond foolish. Nothing’s even going to begin to change in the Middle East until there is at least some presence of Western Civilization that they will allow to peacefully coexist within their culture and embrace. The beginnings of that are in place in Iraq, but all folks at HA can focus on is the number of dead Americans. How will Middle Easterners ever learn the values and ideas that have made Western Civilization flourish, if they simply repress these ideas whenever they pop up with the Theocratic or Authoritarian governmental structures that they have in place now?
Note that when confronted with an argument, all Goldy can do is respond with “Fuck You.” It’s not necessary for him to actually explain how we would implement a policy of diplomacy, aid, development, etc. when our enemy is not a nation or even a group that we can target. Instead, in the face of an argument, cut and run with an ad hominem attack.
As with most progressive ideas, they make for interesting conversations until they have to be applied to the real world.
Th real world is that we have an entire region of the planet indocrinated with 14th century hatred and intolerance. Many in the Middle East see the irrationality of such backwards ideas just as many in the US saw the irrationality of slavery when it was tolerated. But it took a very bloody civil war to convince the irrational in the US that there was no place in Western Civilization for slavery. And it’s going to take an equally bloody war to convince those with Eastern intolerance to abandon the tyranny that currently oppresses them from moving into a modern pro individual philosophy and political structure.
However it will be to everyone’s detrement to simply let their hatred fester while they watch Westerners get richer and richer on Al Jazeera. It has to be confronted with more than appeasement. Oh and lest anyone forget, we had an appeasement policy towards terror for over 30 years. Look what happened.
HEY RUBES!
Including this choice quote:
“…the terrorism rate decreases steadily through Clinton’s second term, bottoming out in the year 2000, and then it rises again dramatically.”
GBS @ 72
Show me proof of OBL location?
grznt @ 70.
I’m not a Christian. Turning the other cheek does not work. Lex talionis.
@ 73
Yes, the Taliban extended sympathies but IIRC they also said that they didn’t think UBL had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks.
The Bushies asked the Taliban to turn over UBL but the best they could do from their point of view was to “ask him to leave” which amounted to pretty much nothing.
I don’t miss the Taliban at all..
prr @ 69
“Maybe the japanese intern camps are something we have to apologize for now, but they did work. we should start thinking in this direction.”
Yes, I understand the point you are making. I have to disagree, however, because the circumstances are too dissimilar. Islam is a major world religion, that has a presence in almost every country of the world, and accounts for about 20% of the world’s population. Almost all Muslims are peace-loving people who respect human life, and in almost every country, Muslims live peacefully with their non-Islamic neighbors.
We are not fighting a nation of people with a well defined national identity who largely inhabit a single country (as was true of the Japanese during WWII).
There is somewhere from 1 to 10 million Muslims in the U.S. If we are to detain our citizens for their religious beliefs because there is a tiny handful of people who abuse that religion to promote a political agenda, then the U.S. will be no better than Nazi Germany.
The vision you seem to be encouraging is not consistent with the Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, or any traditional American values.
If the U.S. government moves to strip people of their right to worship under the religion of their choice, and they start systematically detaining Muslims because they are Muslims, then I become an insurgent, because then I will know my country has been hijacked by a government indistinguishable from the Nazis.
“I’m not a Christian. Turning the other cheek does not work. Lex talionis.”
Fair enough. Still, you wish Goldy harm because of his ideas and beliefs. It’s quite American: “I don’t like what you think so I want you dead or someone you care about.”
I’m humming the national anthem as I type.
You’re still no better than those that preach the hatred of Islamic terrorism.
I don’t know who you are, but I wish no American death or harm because of their ideas or beliefs.
You’re a disgrace to this country, to democracy and to human progress if you believe that.
Grntz @ 80
Let’s look at this. There are fine individuals in the service dying everyday while Goldy goes on his Anti-American Rants, talks about his rights to burn flags, How Bush is a Criminal, etc….
So would I wish that Goldy and the rest of this Ilk were dying instead of troops trying to protect you?
Absolutely, 100%
In fact, I would not loose 1 night sleep because of it either.
prr @ 76
I used to have a TS security clearance, but it has long since lapsed. You’ll have to direct your request to the man who publicaly made that Claim. Give him a call and report back to us on the blod. The number to the CIA is (703) 482-0623. Ask for Porter Goss Director of the CIA.
When Porter gives you the intel, do us another favor, please. Call this number (202)456-1111. Ask for dubya and drop the dime on him.
Oh, and if you don’t mind ask dubya if he could find some time to have a chat with Rummy and if he could, you know, maybe KILL OBL.
Thanks for your help, prr. Your nation is grateful to your efforts to suppor the War on Terro.
GBS,
I’m not the one saying this is a fact, you are.
I say you are full of shit.
John @ 78
“The Bushies asked the Taliban to turn over UBL but the best they could do from their point of view was to “ask him to leave” which amounted to pretty much nothing.”
Actually, Bush gave the Taliban 3 days to comply, as I recall. The Taliban agreed to have an Islamic case hear the case. Their court (which, from what I can remember would be the equivallent of our Supreme court). The court denied turning over Bin Laden.
Now, I don’t know about you, but I suspect that if the U.S. were told to turn over a notorious criminal in 3 days to another country, the court proceedings might well stop the best intentions. For the Taliban, it was complicated by the fact that they had very little control in the country—they were struggling with an internal civil war that pretty much ruled out the possibility of arresting Bin Laden.
“I don’t miss the Taliban at all.. “
Me neither. I am happy to see the Taliban ousted, but I wish the U.S. had not been intellectual dishonesty in exaggerating the ties between Bin Laden and the Taliban. Instead, with the tact we took, we failed in our primary mission, which was to shut down Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, and ended up recruited a whole new generation of terrorists.
prr @ 83
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/......laden.ap/
Now who’s full of shit?
Goldy,
Maybe conversion by everyone in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe to extreme fundamentalism Islam would solve the problem, and they would stop attacking us.
Failing that, we need to resist these people with every means possible and use whatever force is necessary to stop them and prevent their attacks.
I see our right-wing trolls are posting the predictable anti-liberal, blame-Clinton garbage today. When will you assholes realize our country needs to be united, not at each other’s throats, in the face of the terrorist threat? Yes, wage war against them, exterminate them — instead of invading countries that have nothing to do with terrorism. Doesn’t it occur to you blockheads that imprisoning and torturing innocent people detracts from, not helps, our anti-terrorism efforts?
prr @ 81
“Let’s look at this. There are fine individuals in the service dying everyday while Goldy goes on his Anti-American Rants, talks about his rights to burn flags, How Bush is a Criminal, etc….
So would I wish that Goldy and the rest of this Ilk were dying instead of troops trying to protect you?
Absolutely, 100%
In fact, I would not loose 1 night sleep because of it either.”
Ladies and Gentlemen: The American Taliban (or… the extreme right). Just as bigoted as the slave holders of the 1800’s and just as rational as the jim crow protectors and klu klux klan members of the last half of the 20th Century. In 20 years time, history will look at you the same way it now looks at these discarded embarrassments of our history.
You’re a joke. If you have ever waved a flag, you’re living a lie. You have no idea what democracy, what america, or what this country is about. You’re an absolute joke and a bigot.
But, thanks for playing! More and more moderates are jumping from your ship as you scream your pathetic hate.
RP @ 86
My feeling exactly. Why aren’t we running rough shot over Pakistan, or wherever Port Goss has an excellent idea of where OSL is?
Here’s a quote from PG interview with Time Magazine.
In an interview with Time for the magazine’s June 27 issue, Porter Goss was asked about the progress of the hunt for bin Laden.
“When you go to the question of dealing with sanctuaries in sovereign states, you’re dealing with a problem of our sense of international obligation, fair play,”
FAIR PLAY. This is the asshole, jerk-off Bush handpicked to run the CIA? What a bunch of failed piss ants these Republicans turned out to be. The losers.
I wish the thumb sucking, Republican piss ants, in DC would do the right thing for America and resign their positions and turn the responsibility to men who know how to think critically enough to win the WOT effectively.
grznt @ 88
You are absolutely on the money.
The American Taliban (or… the extreme right). . . embarrassments of our history.
Well done.
OK prr,
HOW do you reconcile supporting the Commander in Chief who refuses to KILL Osama Bin Laden because of the “sanctuaries in sovereign states?”
prr, here’s some more for you. Notice DICK doesn’t say Porter is “full of shit?”
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/24/cheney/
“Here’s an excerpt of Wolf’s exclusive interview with the vice president.
WOLF BLITZER: Let’s talk about Porter Goss, the CIA director. He says he has an “excellent idea” where Osama bin Laden is hiding out. Do you?
DICK CHENEY: We’ve got a pretty good idea of the general area that he’s in, but I — you know, I don’t have the street address.”
Could somebody help DICK out and give him the street adress to the bad buy hideout?
Perhaps DICK has other priorities than military service or killing Osama. Like lining the pockets of Haliburton with Billioins of taxpayer dollars while he’s still on their payroll.
HELLO! HELLO! CRICKET BRIGADE. WHERE ARE YOU???
grznt @ 80,
Anyone who fails to see the implications of a policy of appeasement deserves no sympathy when they fall victim to another terrorist attack.
I’m not calling for direct violence on anyone, nor would I instigate any violence. However, it reamains clear that the only way that some people will ever recognize the gravity of the threat that confronts us is if it affects them personally.
The rational Americans understand by extension that it could have easily been any one of us on one of those airline flghts that day, or in a bus, on a subway train, in a building, etc. that dies as a result of an attack.
Failing to confront such attacks, or suggesting a policy of appeasment when 30 years of appeasement has yielded nothing but a continual escalation of terror towards Western nations would only contribute to the problem.
Even if we removed every American from every bit of Middle Eastern soil, it would not lessen the hatred that many of these people have been indoctrinated with towards anything secular, Western, sexual, material, etc. And the attacks would continue because “infidels” still exist.
I’m simply wishing upon Goldy the consequences of his own bad ideas.
GBS & Grntz,
Are you kidding me?
That’s kind of like saying we have a pretty good idea wher Zarqawi is right now.
This is the huge smoking gun you have?
Grow the fuck up.
Who wants more proof of BUSH’s failed leadership in the War on Terror.
EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL A-BOUT IT!! International support crumbling on BUSH’s watch!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8499519/
BUSH = PISS ANT
grznt @ 88
Well said. Let’s hope their adrenaline levels go down and they realize that their words betrayed themselves as the enemies of America.
I think this is a preview of what will happen when terriorists strike at home again—these assholes will give up everything America stands for and start slaughtering people out of fear and for stress relief. I had always though Americans were greater than than and were willing to die for their freedoms, but these chicken-shit assholes have forgotten what it means to be an American.
I hope it is just the case the HA is a magnet for these anti-American bastards, and they don’t really represent a larger anti-American movement in the U.S.
Ahhhhhh look at prr. He’s all mad and saying bad boy words like “fuck you”
Ewwww you scare everybody here.
Hey, who else can Karl Rove out?
The fucking piss ant.
You’re right prr, Porter Goss as the CIA director saying he has an excellent idea of where OSL is, is a lot like George Tennet saying “Mr. President, it’s a slam dunk.”
Why is that prr,
Because they are piss ants
prr still can’t actually add anything but flames and digressions, can he?
Bush could be more of a failed leader, Cic, President, S&L, MLB team onwer, CEO of an oil drilling compnay, but I don’t see how.
A track record of failure = a failed leader.
Wake up you conservative sheeple.
prr @ 98
i fail to see how this has anything to do with me what-so-ever. no comment on the bigotry you displayed earlier? maybe there is hope for you- maybe you now realize your mistake.
Goldy Loves Terror @ 95
i never said a policy of appeasement is the answer- and neither did goldy. i abdicated for a multi-pronged approach that would include military action and economic aid. (note: i don’t think goldy was promoting diplomacy with terrorists, but with middle eastern countries that we can deal with. we obviously can have diplomatic talks with al-Qaeda and shouldn’t, but we can reach out to the wider middle east)
i my opinion, your military only option is creating more terror than it is solving. but i don’t wish upon you the consequences of your own bad ideas as i see them.
wanting another american to experience terrorism because you disagree is disgraceful.
Once again, if you think so you’re no better than those that preach the hatred of Islamic terrorism.
edit above:
should be “we obviously can’t have diplomatic talks with al-Qaeda and shouldn’t, but we can reach out to the wider middle east”
Goldy Loves Terror…
All I did was ask some policy questions, and you have responded by wishing death upon me and my loved ones. It is you who is the bully. It is you who is the coward. And it is you who is no better than the terrorists.
You think I should experience terror myself? 95% of my mother’s extended family was exterminated during WWII… her only surviving family members were those who emigrated from Eastern Europe before the war, and their descendents. So don’t lecture me about empathy for victims of terror… or for the so-called moral superiority of the civilized West for that matter.
And to you all…
I am so, so deeply disappointed with the tone and content of some of these comments, though I admit, not surprised. I never said anything about negotiating with terrorists or appeasing Bin Ladin, and for you to assume so just shows how simplistic your world view is. And quite frankly, your efforts to demonize the other are just plain disgusting.
All I asked was if we could have a reasonable discussion, but apparently you find that too threatening.
Conducting military operations against a country is one thing, but conducting military operations against an ideology just isn’t possible.
“This is no more a war on terrorism than World War II was a war on submarines. It’s not just semantics….Words have meaning. And these words are leading us down to the wrong concept.
“….The center of gravity, the decisive terrain in this war is the vast majority of people who are not directly involved but whose support, willing or coerced, is necessary to insurgent operations around the world. Hearts and minds are more important than capturing and killing people.”
–Lieutenant General Wallace Gregson, currently commander of Marine forces in the Pacific
Chickenshit @ 95
”However, it reamains clear that the only way that some people will ever recognize the gravity of the threat that confronts us is if it affects them personally.”
No, in fact, what is happening is exactly the opposite. People do far risker things every day (drive cars, motorcycles, and bicycles, fly on airplanes, J-walk, climb mountains) and have almost no chance of being killed by a terrorist (even if there were a few attacks every year here in America). Yet, people like you, under the threat of some infinitesimally small threat of being killed or injured, seem to be willing to hand over your liberties (and particularly the liberties of people who aren’t quite like you) on a platter for a vanishingly small decrease in risk. What bullshit. Freedom is worth dying for and you fuckers spit in the face of every person who has died to acquire and preserve our freedoms.
The worse part of this all, is that the terrorists win the battle and the war when you chickenshit assholes are willing to hand over freedoms.
”The rational Americans understand by extension that it could have easily been any one of us on one of those airline flghts that day, or in a bus, on a subway train, in a building, etc. that dies as a result of an attack.”
On the other hand, we can turn into a fucking police state, require searches to walk out of our homes and into any business. Limit what people can say, believe, read, watch on TV, laugh at or cry about. We can imprison people for being short or brown, bearded or tattooed, too fat or too thin, being atheist or Buddhists, being too ugly or not blond enough, or for complaining about the government. Is that your vision for America, land of the chicken-shits who gave up freedom for mere psychological relief?
”Failing to confront such attacks, or suggesting a policy of appeasment when 30 years of appeasement has yielded nothing but a continual escalation of terror towards Western nations would only contribute to the problem.”
Your analysis is ahistorical. The history of “terrorism” in the 20th century is that attacking people does not work. The prime examples recognized by most Westerners is the IRA fight for a free N. Ireland and the PLO’s fight against Israel. In both cases, a pure military strategy has failed, and progress was only made with a mixed strategy that included political dialog. Less well known examples are the Basque separatists and Tamil Tigers—both situations that will not be resolved without a political solution being offered. You are simply fooling yourself if you believe you can beat terrorism by killing terrorists.
”Even if we removed every American from every bit of Middle Eastern soil, it would not lessen the hatred that many of these people have been indoctrinated with towards anything secular, Western, sexual, material, etc. And the attacks would continue because “infidels” still exist.”
No shit! You think that some of it might come from the U.S. killing 100,000 civilians in Iraq? Do you think we won the hearts and minds of peoples by choosing solutions that are disrespectful of people’s religious, political, and ethical beliefs? We are in for a long, hard slough, largely because of idiotic international policies from our government. The absolute biggest disaster of a policy has been Bush’s cowboy mentality. He has cause more damage in 4 years than the previous 6 Presidents.
”I’m simply wishing upon Goldy the consequences of his own bad ideas.”
Yeah? Well, you are a fascist asshole. And a pretty clueless asshole at that.
Goldy @ 107
Appeasing the Nazis was also attempted, and it didn’t work. They had to be defeated at a great cost. Among other things, these terrorists want to finish the work that Hitler started. You may want to keep that in mind. Appeasing them isn’t going to work either. Nor will other “feel-good” ideas — which aren’t exactly direct appeasement, but don’t do anything to fight the terrorism.
@ 110
What is it about the English language that you don’t understand?
Goldy never said appeasement.
But, this administration has been negotiating with “insurgents/terrorists” in Iraq. Does that seem odd to you and your ideology that YOU are professing?
GBS @ 92.
Hey I’ve got his exact location.
he’s in the middle east
Loves terror @ where-ever
So, by your rather callous and morbid point, I assume YOU HAVE lost someone to a terrorist attack. Please, enlighten us on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE so we can rationalize the written in others blood comments you make.
Point being, it doesn’t take the loss of a friend or relative to understand the magnitude of the war that was forced upon us. What is PARAMOUNT is the simple FACT that we are barely safer now than 4 years ago and our ‘leader’ has failed in his primary objectives of A) locating and bringing to justice OBL, and B)sealing and cleansing this country of the enemy that were teaching how to kill us.
Goldy @107,
Maybe you can explain your ideas of diplomacy then? With who? For what? With what money? Why? Have you considered that Diplomacy would embolden the terrorists? Afterall, we’ve stated that we have zero tolerance for terrorism. If we now go and negotiate with other countries that are if nothing else, standing by passively while terrorism is taught and funded on their soil, don’t you think that sends the message to the terrorists that their strategy is working?
Have you considered what ideas cause terror in the first place? Have you considered what forms of government allow terrorism to continue?
Your poor family would not have gone through so much hell if the US had stood up sooner to terror during WWII either. Instead, we looked the other way and millions died.
Look I’m not saying that I want to see people dead, but I fear that unfortunately, that’s what it’s going to take to see a change of heart amongst American liberals who would have us pull out of Iraq, back down from all conflict, negotiate, give away our tax dollars, etc.
Does anyone really believe this is going to make bad guys just go away? That’s pretty naive if you do. If nothing else, terror has become a bit of a career for many of these bad guys. Are they all just going to suddenly turn over a new leaf and start a little farm to get away from a life of terror?
Support of Marxist ideas, collectivism, totalitarianism, etc. is what enables the bad governments of these regions to come into power, and American “intellectuals” like Ward Churchill to blame us and/or look the other way when it happens. We’ve let this probem grow for decades, and to some extent we’ve contributed to it ourselves by failed polices such as Iran Contra. But diplomacy now with banana republics isn’t going to stop the terror and anyone rational can see that pretty clearly.
Questioning our resolve has done wonders for your site traffic, but is it any way to approach evil? I bet your sadly deceased ancestors would think differently than you do.
Goldy,
You cannot have a rational conversation with the “right” regarding the war. To do so, in their mind, means questioning the President and thus being unpatriotic. This administration and it’s supporters (swift boat commanders and the such) have done an unprecedented job in whipping their base into a non-questioning, conforming entity. Look at the Presidents “townhall” meetings with hand picked citizens whom all agree with the bush, no dissenting voices. Or, signing “loyalty cards” and “pledge cards” at political rallies. Not allowing anyone even wearing an opposing candidiates lapel button into their rally to hear the President speak.
If we took these same actions and labeled them under Nazism, Taliban, Communism, Radical Islam, the conservatives would all agree in unison that those are bad people in the leadership positions. But, when it’s them, there is no rational dialouge to be found no matter what the facts and truth are.
Sorry, Goldy, that’s the way it is. We have to endure another McCarthyism era because of these people and their unwillingness to admit when they are wrong.
GBS @ 111
What the world did regarding the Nazis prior to September 1939 was known as “appeasement”.
Goldy has suggested using “diplomacy, aid, economic development, etc.” to deal with the terrorists.
The only one of the above methods utilized in appeasing the Nazis was “diplomacy”. I don’t believe the Nazis were ever given foreign aid or economic development assistance.
Perhaps if mere diplomacy was unsuccessful in dealing with monsters 66 years ago, additional measures such as foreign aid and economic development assistance might just do the trick today?
Congress, pass the Rail and Port Security Bill, Now please, before this happens here.
prr @ 112
Yuck, yuck, yuck, oh man that’s a funny one. If it wasn’t such a serious matter of life and death I’d think it hilarious.
Do you think that’s as precise as Porter Goss meant? The Middle East. Or are you being more specific than the Director of the CIA. Or, perhaps, the truth is that not only does the Director of CIA know which country, but the general location within that coutnry?
Also, you intentionally avoided answering the direct questions posed to you. Is that because to answer honestly would mean you would find that you cannot support your misleader anymore?
dj[and the D obviously stands for delusional…i can guess what the J stands for….] you are a real piece of work.i guess you haven’t heard yet that moveon.commie’s talking points bulletin and that whole story of us killing 100,000 iraqi citizens has been completely debunked as a falsehood?
and goldy…oh please…you know ,save the crocodile tears about “no dialog” for someone that might be gullible enough to buy it. and to find that person, it would have to be someone that has never read any of your tasteless and vitriolic rants. frankly for you, of all people, to say that you are disapointed in us? get real man………
i’ll be listening to you on the radio today…god knows we could all use a good laugh and i am banking on you spinning this latest tradegy into it being the GOP’S fault.
prr @ 112
“Hey I’ve got his exact location. he’s in the middle east”
Not likely. By all accounts he is in Pakistan, which, if you “pin point” his exact location to a region, is in South Asia rather than the Middle East.
GBS,
I did not answer you because you are off your rocker, you leftwing pinhead
DJ
“Not likely. By all accounts he is in Pakistan, which, if you “pin point” his exact location to a region, is in South Asia rather than the Middle East.”
Great, go get ’em DJ.
loves terror @ 114
any way to approach evil?
So who’s this ‘evil” you speak of? Given what’s transpired today, one would believe you mean the Muslim extremists. BUT is that the REAL EVIL that’s being fought?
We trained and armed OBL so he could fight the Russians. Later we (Clinton era) shot cruise missles into his country killing innocent civilians….this pushed him over the edge. Clearly making US look evil.
Side note; I’m not saying what he’s doing is okay in any shape or form, just drawing the picture.
So OBL attacks us, rather successfully I might add, and this fans the flames of the Muslims world wide that do truly hate us and everything we’ve done to them in their eyes. Who’s evil?
We retaliate by launching a “Global War on Terror”…barely successful in getting the Afghan’s pointed in the right direction, then direct our forces where? Oh, that’s right; we invade Iraq and over throw that government too, killing tens of thousands. Who’s evil?
Evil in this case is strictly a point of view. And from this end, were looking pretty shitty….
RP @116
Q: How do you know you are winning the debate with a conservative?
A: When they reframe the debate, toss out red herrings and when all else fails the obligatory personal attacks followed by rambling and cursing.
I’d say you’re somewhere between reframing the debate and red herrings.
You are missing the boat if you think anyone is advocating direct negotiations or diplomacy with the terrorist/insurgents as is going on today in Iraq by this administration, but I digress.
The idea of giving aid to nations in the form of money, infrastructure, schools, food, democracy etc. is to sway the regular populace to our way of thinking before they decide to join the insurgency or terrorist organizations and don a vest full of explosives and kill innocent people. The reason Bush is blowing the WOT is because before he went on a misadventure in Iraq he should have built the model nation of change in Afghanistan. He bit off too much, too fast and as Colin Powell put it, he broke it. Now he owns it. All of it. And by proxy we all now own the problem thanks to his shortsightedness and ego thinking we would be accepted as liberators. Did he not read his own father’s memoirs? I suggest he did not.
All Goldy wanted to do is question whether or not we are approaching the WOT with all the best possible solutions. Have we analyzed everything we are doing. Should we be doing something else, something better. That’s how people who actually poses critical thinking skills continually improve the process.
NOT “We will stay the course.”
That’s not going to cut it anymore with the American public. For those of you who predicted a 10 fold increase in the Republican base today, forget it. Come November you are in for a big surprise. But let’s watch Bush’s approval ratings over the next 7 days and determine if prr is right or wrong.
Goldy, can we have a thread on Bush’s approval ratings one week form today in order to continue honest dialogue based on fact and not emotion.
Simmer down now. We are not about to start Islamic concentration camps, or nuke Mecca, etc. On the other hand, this was not an attack on the US, nor was it a failure of America. It was a horrendous attack on Britain, and sounds like a failure of British leadership or intel. Bad things happen in war. The terrorist have and will define the battleground. I prefer the battleground to be in Iraq, and what we are doing there has been keeping them busy. There will probably be an attack on the US some day, but if so, it will be al quaidas fault, not ours.
prr @ 121
You didn’t answer the question because your are being intellectually dishonest.
Just answer the question:
How can you reconcile your continued support of this president if the Director of the CIA has an excellent idea where Osama Bin Laden is and Bush, as the Commander in Chief, failed to launch a military strike to kill Osama Bin Laden?
GBS…..do you not get it AT ALL?
this is not an issue to be politicised….that you would even try to do that is obscene.
while the terrorists are killing people you are gleefully planning on your party winning a political contest.
WOW….what if no one is around by then….won’t that be a bummer?
Christmas murderer @ 119
”i guess you haven’t heard yet that moveon.commie’s talking points bulletin and that whole story of us killing 100,000 iraqi citizens has been completely debunked as a falsehood?”
Sorry to disappoint you, sweetheart, I haven’t been to moveon since before the 2004 election.
The estimate of Iraqi citizens killed comes from an “on the ground” survey published by Roberts et al. [(2004) Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey, The Lancet. 364 (Iss. 9448):1857]. The take home message: an estimated 98,000 excess deaths (as a result of the military invasion) with a 95% confidence interval of 8,000-194,000.
Have you read the article?
Now, I am sure I don’t need to point out to someone of your intellectual prowess that The Lancet is one of the top peer-reviewed scientific journals in the world. So, please provide a reference to a peer reviewed article that falsifies the Roberts et al. article, if it has been “debunked.”
That’s a pretty straight forward question prr. What’s the delay?
Xghost,
Go back a read the posts before you comment. I won’t help you play catch up. Do your due diligence.
Thanks,
Richard Pope @110,
What did I write? …
I asked if we can really defeat terrorism with brute force alone. I asked if we might need to supplement our coventional forces with other strategies.
But what I’m hearing from the right is that we must unconditionally support the Bush administration’s policies, regardless of if they are actually bearing any fruit. …That any effort to question these policies and consider new strategies will be branded as appeasement and cowardice.
What some people are telling me here, is that we shouldn’t even have this discussion. And that is un-American.
Reply@87,
When will you assholes realize our country needs to be united, not at each other’s throats, in the face of the terrorist threat?
WTF? I sure wish liberals would take that advice! They ave been trying to divide this country since day ! of Bush’s term, putting their petty political concerns ahead of our war effort. SHame on liberals! Shame!
I suppose these numbers are so easily refutable then?
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/
…yeah, these folks must have more free time than this whole blogsphere combined!
Who’s evil?
@ 131.
Ummm. . . I believe it started back in the 2000 campaign. Bush “I’m a uniter not a divider.”
Day one at the White House, “Holy Shit, the Clinton people did $200,000 in damage.”
Lately, Karl Rove outs an undercover CIA operative whose work is specifically to prevent WMD’s from reaching our shores.
Nice try, but it won’t fly.
prr
I see that you still are refusing to answer the question. I find it funny that no other conservative blogger cared to try and answer that question as well. Maybe PacMan will show up and have the balls to answer the question unlike the squeamish here.
See 125 for the question neocons are afraid to answer.
Pbj @ 131
”WTF? I sure wish liberals would take that advice! They ave been trying to divide this country since day ! of Bush’s term, putting their petty political concerns ahead of our war effort. SHame on liberals! Shame! “
Sorry, pbj, this is incorrect. The nation rallied with the President after 9/11. Bush was given a political and fiscal blank check, along with his opportunity to shine as a leader. He fucked it up in almost every regard. Sure, he started off well enough in Afghanistan, but then decided to embark in a very costly and senseless direction that has become a fiasco and counter-productive to the original goals.
Bush is a failed leader and it is a patriotic right (and perhaps a duty) for Americans to point out Bush’s failures and demand change. We need a real and thoughtful leader right now, not an idiot who is harming America because he is pathologically incapable of acknowledging his faults and correcting his actions.
Here’s more proof that Bush if FAILING in the War On Terror.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8497845/
The Iraqi Defense Minister, Saadoun al-Duleimi is warming up to Iran and is planning greater military cooperation with the nation that just elected a former US hostage taker as their president and is on the fast track to getting nukes on Bush’s watch.
Shit, those Iraqis just Looooove us Americans. Don’t they?
Man it sure was worth the blood and treasure to free Iraq from Saddam so they can attach themselves to a radical Islamic nation with their finger on a soon to be operational nuke.
Bush = Piss Ant, loser
GBS………i’ll take the bait on #125. here’s the answer, and you won’t like it i’m sure. none of us knows why things do or do not happen at that level of security. have you ever had a security clearance? that’s a rhetorical question in your case of course.
you have an axe to grind with bush and you wouldn’t see the truth if you tripped over it.
if you are so into holding people[presidents] accountable….why don’t you answer this question. why was it okay in liberal-land to give bill clinton a free pass when he could have grabbed bin laden at least two different times? in your world, and using your rules, shouldn’t he be strung up as a war criminal for “letting” americans die when he could have prevented it?
i’m not into the whole blame game thing…it’s childish and pointless…unless you are blaming the people who are actually responsible for the act.
in this case i imagine it will be islamo-fascists.
Well, another good day of SMACKING down the lies and the lying, liars who tell them. (Thanks Al)
The truth shall set you free. You conservatives ought to try a dose of truth. When you do so the only thing that hurts is your ego. But, you’ll get over it. Come on over to the side of light and truth. There’s always room at the inn.
Bush is a FAILED Commander in Chief during a time of war. Shouldn’t he embrace the culture of life and just resign. That act alone would save the lives of another 1,760 Americans.
GBS @ many questions…
I was on a conference call so simmer down.
How do I reconcile this?
First off, I don’t give it any merit, so reconciling would not be necessary.
What part of today news don’t you get?
As to the failure and your reference of 1,760 Americans. Look at those numbers. How many Americans overdose every year? Or die in car Crashes, or even die of obesity.
1,760 over 3 years? Those are not big numbers compared to other statistics GBS.
This administration is in charge and will certainly have overwhelming support for escalating this action further. The timing on this attack was a nail in the Coffin of Al Qaeda. I am quite certain that a good percentage at the G-8 was willing to say, it’s time to get out of Iraq. Aftr the lunacy of today… Forget it.
I am qute certain that supprt for the presence in Iraq has been set in concrete.
On a side note, the with the increase that Bush’s Approval rating is going to have from this attack, I would be very concerned about the SCOTUS nominations coming up.
Who knows, if everything goes right, you may be shot for sedition.
GBS… As an FYI
17,013 Americans died in alcohol related traffic fatalities in 2003 alone.
BGS @ 115 “You cannot have a rational conversation with the “right†regarding the war.â€
I would extend that to religion, sex, and everything else.
It is just deplorable to see these troop-hating, OBL-loving traiters try to downplay the death and maiming our soldiers have endured for this senseless, and security-damaging war in Iraq.
You all should go straight to prison for being such America-hating traiters!
Christmasghost @ 137
An honest question deserves an honest answer.
My security clearance was TS with SCI level III clearance. It lapsed on Dec. 30, 1989. End of Obligated Service.
Clinton had two chances to get OSL. The Sudan connection escapes me at the moment, so for the sake of argument I’ll give you this one that he fucked up here and should have accepted their offer.
When he had him in the cross-hairs in Afghanistan the option was a cruise missile strike. There were innocent women and children present at the time and 9/11 hadn’t occurred yet so all bets were NOT off the table at the time. Credit to Clinton for not acting in the barbaric manner OSL does. However, hindsight is 20/20. OSL was within our grasp just weeks ago and Bush opted not to go into, most likely, Pakistan.
What I’m talking about is not “looking in the rearview mirror” as you are doing with President Clinton. This in here, in the present, right now, in the midst of WWIII. And, your misleader blew it big time. He continually makes the wrong decisions at the worst time. We are almost 4 years into this war. Look at what America did in WWII in 4 years. Hell, we were on the verge of winning two MAJOR wars at the same time. We can, and we will win this war, too. I believe that. But the danger is we are getting bogged down in Iraq and we do not have the ability to project massive military operations at will in another theater of operations.
If we continue down this path we run the risk of repeating the Soviet Union’s mistakes in Afghanistan. In the end, OSL wins. Nobody wants that except his followers. Bush is not capitalizing on other avenues available to him to sway public opinion against the terrorist. Bush is unwilling to change directions, he wants to stay the course. Well, it’s not working as effectively as it could. We Americans are capable of doing much, much better in the leadership position of our country. Bush is failing, the military isn’t getting enough recruits (that speaks volumes regarding the values of Republicans and their kids) and we need a change of pace.
Now, don’t be the ghost of Christmas Past, be the Ghost of the future. OK?
Now, I will never use CAPS and you can’t make me. . . unless I WANT to. Oh, yeah and foul language makes you look stupid, too.
Aid and economic development? Have you HEARD about what’s going on in Iraq and Afghanistan??
and NO, we will NOT try to reason with irrational people who are possessed of 4 yr old logic and only live to send their kids to blow up innocent civilians
prr I’m done with you the same way I’m done with “nameless.” In fact I hereby anoint you as “nameless Jr.”
You ignore the facts, bring up irrelevant pieces of information and when you get cornered, you begin spouting off with “F” bombs and whatever other dribble you espouse.
You are not a worthy opponent for me to waste time with. You, like Terri Schiavo, are too far gone to save. Perhaps if you send a video of yourself drooling down your chin Dr. Bill Frist will say you are responding to visual stimuli and there is a chance to save you. Sean Hannity will fly out to Seattle and set up his microphone in front of your Mother’s basement and get a bunch of idiots to hold a vigil in front of your Mother’s house and try to bring you cups of water that, if they are successful, you’ll choke to death on it. Thus relieving us from your inane blathering.
**POOF**
Like your namesake you are banished from my eyes “nameless Jr.”
GBS…..ooooooh,very good, snide comeback.
you see…i don’t blame clinton because as you said, hindsight is 20/20.and where does blame get you?
what you are implying about president bush is that he is deliberately is getting people killed just for the heck of it.what garbage….get real.
what i get tired of hearing are the statements you continually make such as..”This in here, in the present, right now, in the midst of WWIII. And, your misleader blew it big time.”
my leader? not yours too? oh, come on…third grade was a long time ago wasn’t it? he’s yours too….and in time of war you should back him up no matter what.that’s called “the right thing to do”.
and you had a TS SCI level 111 and you are blabbing about it on here now? isn’t it a little soon to be doing that? interesting…..so you of all people should know better than the crap you are feeding everyone here?
i guess the government was pretty smart in choosing you to work on sophisticated technical collection systems hm?
and…we are not bogged down in iraq.heard of a roach motel? it seems to be working quite well. too bad they don’t have your sharp analysis working for them now though huh?
you know, during world war two people that talked the way you do were at the least considered big bores and at worst back stabbing turncoats.
i think it still holds true.
Donnageddon @ 141
I couldn’t agree with you more. Especially the sex part. Conservatives tend to roll around similar places like Mayor Jim West and Joseph Edward Duncan III.
They’re too creepy for me. What a freak show, huh?
donna…you finally got a taker…grab him quick before he wakes up! LOL.
Everyone is having such a good time yelling at each other that I don’t want to break up a good fight. Just two quick things:
1) The United Kingdom has 30 years of institutional experience in fighting terrorism. They have played out all the scenarios, done all the what ifs, they take Al-Qaeda VERY seriously, and have the advantage of counterterrorist legislation that probably would pass neither constitutional nor political muster here. If London can be attacked, anywhere can be attacked.
2) A common technique used by political players since day one is triangulation. Throw light on an ideology well outside the mainstream, accentuate it, and present your alternative as the reasonable one.
With this in mind, I would like to give a big shout to prr, christmasghost, Janet S, Goldy Loves Terror, and the countless other drooling lunatics on this thread. You are truly our most valuable allies, and we thank you for making us look sooooo good.
(Please dear God don’t let a reasonable conservative on this thread. That would ruin everything!)
GBS @ 148 Yep, just look at 149.
Like children. Irresponsible warped children who can vote.
Goldy @ 130
I would submit that Bush has been trying some of your ideas in Iraq for the last two years, without much success. “Nation building” just doesn’t work very well. Especially when radically different cultures are involved. And especially when religiously based zealotry is involved. It is much easier to get a German Nazi or Russian Communist to accept free markets and democracy, than it is to get a Christian or Jew (including the secular and atheist variants of both groups) to become a fervent Muslim (or vice versa).
I am not sure who we would want to be “diplomatic” with. Certainly not with the terrorists. Should we have been “diplomatic” with Iran, and gotten them to participate in the invasion and ouster of Saddam? They would have been rather enthusiastic to do so.
Who do we give economic aid and development to? And will it do anything good — either to actually help the people, or to get them to like us more?
15 out of the 19 hijackers on 09/11 were Saudi Arabians. That country is not exactly poor. And most of the terrorists came from the more well-to-do folk of that land. Is $61 a barrel enough “economic aid”, or should we drive the price higher?
I wasn’t trying to be too hard on you. But I don’t see anything that will work against terrorists, except fighting them and hunting them down. Or should we fund monorail systems for Riyadh, Baghdad and Tehran instead?
XGhost @ 147
Hold on there camel breath.
I didn’t imply anything. And, I didn’t say bush deliberately is killing anyone for the heck of it. What I am specifically saying is his poor judgment is the problem that is causing this war to be more of a protracted engagement than is necessary.
Is that clear enough for you?
Bush IS the president and I opposed him mightily until 9/11. Then, I had his back 100%. As did the rest of the free world, and few others I would suspect. Like Libya, and Pakistan.
But the reality you refuse to face is that all the support President Bush received was pissed away. Not by me, Spain, Uzbekistan, and oh yeah, don’t let me forget Poland. Bush is the only person responsible for fretting away his support that was freely given to him as THE leader fo the free world.
Do the unusual thing for a conservative and place the responsibility squarely where it belongs. At Bush’s feet, not anyone on a blog in Seattle. Get with the program.
Regarding my security clearance, I guess you could categorize it as being a part of a “sophisticated technical collection system.” Whatever, I earned it. Nothing about my accomplishments needs to be proven to the likes of your kind.
You know what else about WWII, nobody had to question the leadership of FDR. Unlike the way many Americans are questioning the wisdom, and I use the term LOOSELY, of Bush’s leadership. Both Democrats and Republicans are questioning it. I’ll refer back to my point regarding he military not meeting it’s recruiting goals. Since the military is 60-70% Republican the lack of recruits speaks to larger volume of Republican families not voting their support with their children’s lives. That’s another reality of fact and truth that you choose to simply ignore.
Bring your “A” game, please.
now now jsa…..don’t be so modest. aren’t you the queen of drooling lunatics in seattle a.k.a. loonie-land?
we couldn’t possibly catch up with you……..
@ 154
Is that your “A” game?
Geeeez, get a life. No, better yet, get a reading tutor. Then, use the gift of reading and read something useful instead of the useless propaganda you’ve been inundating your mind with.
Sorry, pbj, this is incorrect. The nation rallied with the President after 9/11.
Dj –
Sorry but you are wrong. Yes, the liberals did all the symbolic things but other than that all we have heard from liberals is whining – whining about Gitmo and wanting to free the terrorists (of those that were freed, some were found back fighting us again), whining about everything Bush does.
There has been no domestic terrorist attack since 911 under Bush. Yet all we hear from liberals is concern because some terrorist’s Koran was splashed with urine while terrorist are slicing people’s heads off.
GBS……..wow, have you heard of lag time or having something to do? stop sitting there like an old spider and realize that if someone doesn’t answer you right away it’s not because they don’t know the answer. it might be because they have to do something silly like, oh, i don’t know, run a business.
you are so wrong on so many many counts. number one, wrong answer on your security clearance buckwheat, but good try.and , no, you don’t have to prove yourself to anyone….who said you did? someone that really did have that security clearance would know that the last thing you should ever do is answer a question no one asked.
so bush is making this a protracted engagement when ,if you were running the show, it would be speedy and efficient? have you ever heard of the fog of war?
come on now…try to be fair and think of everything any president has to deal with….it’s not an easy job. and i don’t care a fig what other countries think about us…our other president went around kissing asses and look where it got us…..
more thinking is a good thing.try it sometime…….
pbj @ 156
“…whining about Gitmo and wanting to free the terrorists (of those that were freed, some were found back fighting us again), whining about everything Bush does.”
That is because some of us liberals believe in this little thing called the U.S. constitution. We believe in due process. We believe in upholding our treaty obligations. The Bush administration has shamefully ignored all three of these. That flys in the face of real American values.
BTW: I would appreciate a reliable source for the “freed and fought against the U.S. claim.” I’ve never found any real evidence to support the claim.
“There has been no domestic terrorist attack since 911 under Bush.”
This is bullshit, because we have set up a little sandbox were we give terrorists easy access to soldiers, military contractors, and aid workers. I keep hearing idiots claiming that they would “rather fight terrorists over there than on American soil”, but then they claim no terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. What duplicity!
Of course the real clintcher is that the U.S. policy that has led to this disaster in Iraq has been breeding terrorists faster than we can eliminate them. So, sorry, pbj, I have to say that your statement is pure bullshit any way you look at it.
“Yet all we hear from liberals is concern because some terrorist’s Koran was splashed with urine while terrorist are slicing people’s heads off.”
Really? Then you have been reading a very, very selective literature. Try reading a little more broadly!
Karl Rove was right about liberals and terrorism. So why was he attacked for saying what he said? You’re spouting all the same stuff and thinking it’s fine.
x @ 159
“Karl Rove was right about liberals and terrorism. So why was he attacked for saying what he said? You’re spouting all the same stuff and thinking it’s fine.”
Really, x? Do you know what Karl Rove said? Whose statement here is “the same stuff” that Rove attributed to liberals?
Or were you just blowing some smoke out your ass?
DJ@38: On this and another thread you mention that if Bush followed what Richard Clarke said. So I started looking into Clarke’s book. Did you all realize that Clarke on his 60 Minute interview said that Bush ignored him in August 6th memo. The book said Bush wanted to stop swatting flies regarding Al Qaeda and Osama by telling Dr. Rice to devise a strategy in April 2001. So I guess Tricky Dicky Clarke is “Sexing up his information?” Hmmm…? Oh yeah, I forgot, when confronted, Clarke finally admitted that Clinton had no plan for fighting Al Qaeda. Now that’s curious!
DamnageD@41:I agree with you not everyone is bad. But I do see it curious, that the opening lines from their statement quotes Chapter 42 verse 117(?) of the Koran!
DJ@42:, you stepped in it again. Recently a Muslim Imam went to the White house and he was viewed by Rabbis, Guiliani and the President as a moderate arab. He went to Eqypt recently and in Arabic he said “Death to America”. So if this “peace loving” imam in the US fooled many people and then in Eqypt preaches jihad, how are we bigots. No, you is a stooopid person! (ebonics loocy) Recently on Michael Medved’s show a prominent Muslim admitted that their final goal was to create a Sharia government in the US to replace our republican form of government. And you told me that you were well read and take in all forms of documentation. May I suggest jihadwatch . org!
Xmasghost@43: Gangsta justice, now we be talkin!!
Everyone, why do we have madrassas operating in the US? If they are hate places, we should close them down. But then that’s right, the ACLU, Goldy and the PC police would complain religious freedom, free speech!
Loves Terror@52: That comment and the other one sucks man. I am sorry I can’t condone that type of language on getting someone hurt by terrorists! I agree with what your premise is, but never condone loss of life!
Scott@56: Wow, I can agree wholeheartedly with you. Wow this is a first for me! You punish them. So I guess Karl Rove was right about liberals and inately evil people?
DJ@58: Who was leading the quasi-govmint of Afghanistan? Mullah Omar, an Osama lover. Maybe a deflection tactic? Wow DJ you are off your game today!
GBS@60,62,63: Do you have any friends in Afghanistan? Do you know why the Seal Commandos were where they were? Maybe they are hunting Osama and his cronies, but you could be blinded by hatred?
Janet S@64: The Koran says kill the infidels. I suggest all view this peaceful religion www . wvinter . net / ~ haught / koran . html This is especially for DJ on #67
GBS@66: Just watched ABC’s Nightline. You know PEter Jennings and the gang who said that the US people threw a hissy fit when the 1994 Republican Congress was voted in. Britain subway tubes were under surveillance by Osama and the gang from the mid 90’s. Who was US president then?
GBS@72: Do you really think Bush wants Osama alive. Don’t you think Bush wants for his legacy “I found Osama and brought him to justice”. Sure beats “I got my cock sucked in the White House!”
GRZNT@88: As a black man I look at who those Jim Crow and KKK people are. They were/are Democrats. Hmmm…? Wat dat say to me? Well lemme tink about dat for a minute. One, two, three… ding times up. I’d say the American Taliban is the Democratic Party!!
GBS@93: Cheney is not on the Halliburton payroll. Even the great Nancy Pelosi knows that one! He had to resign and put it all in a blind trust. Slipping man, slipping!
Stopping at 121 – Going to bed now, my chocolate woman is a calling.
GBS@125: I answered your question. The Navy Seal commandos were/are in Afghanistan looking for Osama. One of my friends who used to work for me was special ops HALO qualified, medically retired through injuries in action with multiple screws in his body holding bones together.
Hello DJ@135: If you go back and look at the Democratic rhetoric, it was Tom Daschle who first broke ranks about Afghanistan, then more Democratic senators. If you truly place on your thinking cap you will remember this. March 2002 Tom Daschle called the our presence in Afghanistan an undeclared war. He started complaining when Bush said we needed to look out for Iran and NK. Sept 2002 He mentions that Iraq has WMDs. Later he does an about face. Nov 2002 Tom Daschle again talked about the failure to find Osama in Afghanistan. Remember now we were not in Iraq until March 2003. These comments were used against him in 2004. HE LOST!
Don@141,142: No it is not the right who loves OBL. Look at the rhetoric of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. “We need a timetable to start our pullout.” So OBL will know when we leave and when to take over Iraq. So who loves OBL?
GBS@143: You need to read Dereliction of Duty. We had OBL in the crosshairs in 1996. Sandy Berger calls WJC and asks through Lt. Col. Patterson (holding the football as Major at the time) for approval to strike OBL. WJC ignores him. If I remember correctly, Pakistan is a sovereign nation and how can we just invade their country looking for OBL without them being aggressive to us? Maybe you should talk to DJ about his foul language and looking stoopid. But then again you only castigate righties.
Ghost@147: Weren’t they called Vichy French, the collaborators to the Germans?
GBS@148: I agree with Jim West. I think JEDIII is a Democrat!!! They now say he had a blog called fifthnail . blogspot . com. He was in WA State jails for a while per SF news. Is that true?
GBS, a personal question friend: If someone disagrees with you to the point of exasperation, you banish them? That sounds 3rd gradeish to me. Waaaah, prr and puddy don’t agree with me so I banish them.
Ghost@157: My special ops friend and my buddy in Virginia with whom I work with on network consulting issues said you don’t brag about your past security clearances, especially in this world today!
DJ@158: Why do you want to give terrorists US Consitutional guarantees. DId they observe them with Mr. Berg or Mr. Johnson? You are truly stoopid and arrogant!
There all done!
You liberals are such simpletons! Everyone KNOWS that the War on Terror(ism) by George Bush and TONY BLAIR have made all Americans and BRITONS safer.
Yes, there have been NO terror attacks, WHATSOEVER, directed toward ANY Americans or Britons in the four years since 9/11. NO Americans are Britons have been blown up, shot, stabbed or burned to death in that time. There are NO Americans or Britons missing their arms or legs or brain function because of IEDs and MVIEDs. NONE! You guys don’t know ANYTHING!
Oh, and the Taliban has UTTERLY DISAPPEARED in Afghanistan — it DOESN’T EXIST ANYMORE! (I can’t remember why there are American and British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there must be a reason.)
PacMan!!
Good to see you here again.
Your GBS @ 60, 62-63
No man, I don’t have any friends in the service anymore, but it hurts all the same way deep down inside, especially the missing SEAL. I hope he’s gone to ground, but I’ve had a bad feeling all long they caught one. A 4-man team is not likely out to kill OSL, unless the opportunity happened to present itself. Most likely, they were gathering hard target intel for future ops. I seriously doubt that a group of Taliban fighters strolling along a mountain ridge just happened bump into a 4-man SEAL team and took them by surprise. Sparking a gun battle that resulted in two SEALs being killed, one wounded and one possibly captured. I would hope they were a little bit better than that. It really comes down to one of three most likely scenarios going from least likely to most plausible: 1) They got sloppy and exposed themselves in while in a low lying area and the Taliban held the high ground, 2) With the increased US military tempo in the area the Taliban may have selected the optimum ambush point. After all, it is their backyard, 3) I believe they have obtained night vision devices and took away the silent warriors two biggest advantages, stealth and surprise.
I know why we’re in Afghanistan, but every conservative keeps avoiding the direct question: the director of the CIA knows which country OSL is/was in. I’d bet, based on the certainty of his comments he had a good feel for a specific area within the target country. Now it simply comes down to this: either the country OSL is in, is either with us, or against us. If they’re with us, we’re in with their blessings. If they’re against us, they’ve just became the next Afghanistan. However, inaction on the part of the Commander in Chief has me furious. It’s not “hatred” PacMan, that’s too simple of a dodge. You know me better than that. It reminds me of Bush spending 15 minutes reading My Pet Goat when he should have been on the move. And by the way, your post on another thread saying Bush should have went to the WH and stood on the front lawn saying come and get me is BS. When our country in under attack, this isn’t like your beef on the block (credit to 4th25). He needs to be airborne where he’s safe, in communication, and can make quick decisions.
So, why do you continue to support a CiC who consistently keeps making strategic blunders?
GBS @ 66
Let’s see, hmmmm the 90’s, Oh, yeah that would be George HW Bush from 1/1/90 – 1/20/93, then the remainder of the decade it was President Clinton. Now who was going after OSL in say, Sudan, while the same group of Republicans in Congress were focusing on the politics of personal destruction of the sitting president? Instead of addressing the dangers that were gathering, they were focused on Clinton’s zipper.
Let’s see President Clinton was using the military to try and kill OSL, and the Republicans were saying he’s using the military to have the tail wag the dog and deflect news coverage from the Monica scandal. Is that what happened, PacMan? Or is it time to rewrite history so conservatives can say they were on the right side of history back then, too?
GBS @ 72
On the legacy issue you’re right. But, let’s face it, who doesn’t like a good hummer once in a while? C’mon — you know I’m right.
GBS @ 93
I’m glad you saved the best for last, my friend. Now as I’ve said in the past, I aint the smartest man in the world, what with no fancy shmancy Ivy League ed-u-mecation and all that with linen napkins and crystal water goblets in the chow hall and everything, but DICK doubling Halliburton’s government contracts during his 5 year tenure to $2.3 billion dollars, then getting “deferred payments” after he quit, seems to me like the payroll dept. at Halliburton still has DICK on the their payroll. I dunno for sure though.
Here’s a snippet from Halliburton’s web site. http://www.halliburton.com/new.....sp?printMe
“Mr. Cheney’s financial disclosure statements from 2001, 2002 and 2003 show that since becoming vice president-elect, he has received $1,997,525 from the company: $1,451,398 in a bonus deferred from 1999, the rest in deferred salary. He also holds options to buy Halliburton stock.”
Don’t you think that the last line “He also holds options to buy Halliburton stock.” is just a little, teeny, tiny bit of a conflict of interest? I mean, look at the billions and billions of no compete contracts being awarded to Halliburton on Bush’s watch while Cheney is holding options to buy stock. You know how options work for company executives, right? They get options to purchase the company stock at a fixed price, a strike price, and if the company performs well and the underlying security rises in value, they still get to buy at the lower strike price and then sell the equities in the open market at the current fair market value and they get to keep the profits.
Now, I may be slipping, but PacMan, but “You just got knocked the F_ _ K OUT” (credit to the little “crack head guy” in the movie Friday’s).
Oh, and don’t quote Nancy Pelosi, or any other Democrat from California anymore until you’re boy down in San Diego clears his name or gets punished. And you know who I’m talking about.
PacMan:
Don’t you and I disagree? Are you banished from my eyes? No. Why is that. Because you don’t start dropping F bombs, acting like the tuff guy wanting a piece of me, or all the other crap. I’m not interested in carrying on meaningful conversations with someone who is, as I put, gone like Terri Schiavo. That’s why.
Go back and read “nameless Jr.’s” post on the flag buring thread. Geeez, if he used his mouth on the street the way he does on the blogs, well, let’s just say he’d better be a REAL bad ass, or have a great dental plan. My feeling is that he’s neither a bad ass or needs a dental plan because his tail shoot up between his legs at the first sign of trouble and he lets loose with a little puddle of urine on the floor.
Know what I mean?
I guess I’m on “posting hold” I’ve posted lengthy respones to your post at 161.
DJ, Donnageddon, and other lefties, STOP with the potty mouth. NOW!!
How’s that PacMan?
PacMan @ your Chocolate woman is calling you at 12:36 AM.
Dude, where are your priorities? Man you should’ve been gettin’ that Hot Chocolate hours and hours ago!!
What’s wrong with you?!?!?!
You forgo poohnanny for keyboard time! Man, you make a comment like that one more time and I’m going to have to revoke your membership to the real he-man club.
pacman……..you have it all right. well said. and on the security clearance…i was pretty appalled that anyone would do that too. but then i realized it was just another lefty posing as someone who actually served his country….now there’s a joke waiting to happen.
wouldn’t it be funny/sad, that in today’s world as you said, someone actually took him seriously and grabbed him? can’t you hear it now? i was just bs-ing to get attention……..
i wonder what the reaction would be?
PacMan and XmasGhost @ 162 / 169
PacMan, you I’m a little disappointed in perhaps a misunderstanding. XG seems like nameless with a new alias.
If you recall PacMan, from previous threads I confessed that I wasn’t college educated like you are, but I have an excellent memory. With XG I tried to have an honest dialogue with him. Let’s review the posts and I’ll point out all the details like I’ve done before with “nameless.” Then, it’s the last time I’ll do it, because quite frankly it’s a little tiresome.
@ 125 I’ve posted a challenge for someone to answer my question. XG does at 137. In that post he answers my question and asks two questions of me. 1) Have I ever had a security clearance, albeit with some following sarcasm and 2) He asks a question regarding why President Clinton failed to act on two separate occasions to kill OSL.
Fair question I thought, and trying to reach out to another conservative as I have done with you PacMan, I answered XG’s questions. As honestly and as plainly as I could @ 143. No animosity directed at him, no calling XG any names, no foul language, except where I tried to meet him half way and concede Clinton “fucked up” by not accepting Sudan’s offer to turn over OSL. Again, here’s a prime example of a Liberal trying to meet a Conservative half way, as you sometimes express disappointment on this blog that Liberals don’t try to see things from your point of view. So I’m trying to do that so that we can hash out our opposing views and either agree, or agree to disagree, but remain at least civil if not friendly.
I spin the bit about Christmas past, Christmas future, just trying to bring some levity to the conversation. Then I close out with a quote. The quote comes from another blogg site that I just found yesterday and someone on that sight uses the handle “ChrsitmasGhost”, too. I found it to be too coincidental so I copied and pasted a quote off of that site from that XG and put it on to my post to see if this XG would recognize it. And maybe create a little common ground with XG.
@ 147 how is my honesty repaid? Here’s the quote pulled right off of XG’s post “and you had a TS SCI level 111 and you are blabbing about it on here now? isn’t it a little soon to be doing that?” I didn’t think so since XG asked me a direct question, but I was under the impression he was trying to have a civil discussion. My bad!!
@ 153 I answered his challenges regarding what I meant in my post – no implying anything, backing up the president / not backing him any longer, and made some other points. After XG’s innuendos, I’m fairly certain that I was blasé about my clearance, and that I don’t feel compelled to prove it. Now that’s not bragging PacMan. That’s me just trying to be honest, then I get kicked in my nuts for doing so, then I blow it off. I close out with a pretty good paragraph that, of course, goes unanswered as most good points do when debating conservatives. You are an exception to that generalized statement PacMan. Clearly XG has avoided them, though. The last point I make is bring your “A” game. The finger pointing, blame game, name calling crap isn’t why I’m here. I like being challenged by posters like you, PacMan. That is fun for me. The other crap just blows and I’m avoiding it faster and faster all the time. Do I get heated. Sure do. I’m passionate about the direction of our country. Yes, I am. Why is that? Because I care. When was the last time you got mad about something you really didn’t give a damn about? Never. That’s the point. Did I start off with “Hold on there camel breath.”? Yep, I sure did. But that was after he called me a, and let me copy the quote: “during world war two people that talked the way you do were at the least considered big bores and at worst back stabbing turncoats.
i think it still holds true.”
Yeah, that’s me a back stabbing turncoat. Now which caustic statement is worse? Really? Mine or XG’s?
@ 157 he’s tries to goad me me about my clearances, and accuses me of answering a question nobody asked. Well A) he did ask, and B) after his flak I made the statement that nobody needed to ask me about. In the future I’ll give him the appropriate level of information that his level of knowledge can absorb and not a syllable more. The reality for him, and all of us is that were staring at a video monitor and none of us has any idea about the other. That’s just plain honesty, again.
Now on to your answers @ 161
GBS @ 143. We’ve already covered that ground in the past and I’ve covered it in this post. You being deceptive in your deliberate choice of words: Clinton did not “ignore” the request, he answered in the negative with my reasons stated.
GBS @ 148 No knowledge of anyone’s prison records in WA state. I guess the SF news stands. prr & puddy, I already addressed that.
Ghost @ 157 already addressed that, not bragging about anything, tried to be honest with a conservative. I already took responsibility for that one. “My bad!!”
OK, that’s the stuff addressed to me. Here’s one I didn’t understand from you. It was directed to grznt @ 88:
You said:
“As a black man I look at who those Jim Crow and KKK people are. They were/are Democrats. Hmmm…? Wat dat say to me? Well lemme tink about dat for a minute. One, two, three… ding times up. I’d say the American Taliban is the Democratic Party!!”
Of all the stuff on this post this is the one I’m most interested in reading your response to. Considering the timeframe of Jim Crow laws late 1800’s to 1954 and that Jim Crow laws were mostly enforced in southern states, and I think you’ll find the KKK idiots just about anywhere, but let’s be honest, their roots and popularity are primarily found in southern states, it’s true in that time period the south was solidly Democratic. In 1964 LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act and said something to the effect “I regret I’ve just handed the south to the Republicans.” (We’ve had this dialogue before, but now I want a pointed answer to my question). As a direct result of that legislation being signed people like Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott, Ronald Regan eventually migrated from the Democrats to the Republican party.
Now do you believe all the bad racist Democrats moved out of the south and the good conservatives that live there now moved in, or do you think the same people who were generally Democrats and Klan members changed parties?
Honestly, please.
GBS…..at first i felt badly after reading your last post thinking that maybe i had been too harsh. so i did a little reading.
for a guy that wants to have a “discussion” with us nasty conservatives, you sure go about it in an interesting way.
you start…..
<<<<
gbs…..well…my post must have been too long for goldy, as you can tell it’s not whole. but that’s okay.
the other site that you found is probably my blog.
anyway…..
I thought the Upper East Side of New York [100% Democrat and 100% non vet] was your favorite city.
“Can we really defeat an international, jihadist, terrorist movement with brute force alone, or is it time reasonable people can start talking about supplementing our conventional arms with unconventional strategies – diplomacy, aid, economic development, etc. – without instantly being attacked as cowards, appeasers or traitors?”
There is diplomacy going on in North Korea and Iran. The anti Bush people have criticised it. There is diplomacy going on in Iraq as the new Iraqi government talks with some insurgent groups. The anti Bush people criticized it. There is diplomacy going on as Iraq is working on deals with Iran to avoid future military conflict. The anti Bush people have criticized it.
There is aid and economic development going on in Iraq. The country is being rebuilt, there are more jobs, schools are being built, hospitals, and billions of dollars that were formerly going to build palaces, pursue weapons and bribe UN officials to look the other way are now being used to help the country. The same is happening in Afghanistan. The anti Bush people criticize this and keep calling for a pullout saying it’s not our responsibility.
Care to be specific on the type of diplomacy you’d like to see? Can you be more specific on the economic aid and other aids that are ok?
The anti Bush folks…liberals, cowards…have criticized every action. Terrorists are detained, you demand they be let free. They’re let free and commit terror, you demand to know why they weren’t kept in a prison. The Bush admin acts on hints of evidence without anything concrete, you say they’re war mongering. The Bush admin holds off until they have concrete info, you say a report of ‘possible acts of terror on unknown dates against unknown targets’ should result in immediate action.
History has proven again and again the only way to deal with people who are actively attacking, destroying, killing is to kill them. And that’s what’s happening now. At the same time the US and allies are helping to build up the area to stop the desperation that breeds recruits for terror groups. That’s working too.
It’s Sunday morning and PacMan is in game form. For reference I went back and looked at the F-bombs used by you. When Puddy challenged you to the contest, he called you an asshole (his strongest swear) but you F-Bombed him more than once. It was Roger Rabbit who calmed you down. Come one GBS, you f-bomb like the best of them, dj is the all time winner so far, so let’s try and keep it civil. My potty mouth is against Don who, with a dollar, can’t buy a clue. Six left jabs, two right crosses, a left hook, and two rights to the solar plexus.
GBS: What’s this crap about a knockout?
Let’s first talk about the Kindergarten class and the Pet Goat. Is it more noble to not panic little children by running off hurriedly or having the apparatus in place to start verifying the attack and attackers? Sometimes I wonder about the left and their vainglory attempts to impugn anyone who is against them. A right cross to the body.
Regarding Afghanistan, I feel for those Seal families too. My friend said the Seals had something over Rangers and Air Force Special forces troops with their water training. Swimming without your arms and your legs tied together, makes one a tough cookie. But if Musharraf says do not come into my country, and we do and we get caught, we can have an international incident. Two left hooks to the head.
Regarding Bush airborne after the attack, maybe you are right on that one. But I like my CiC to be ballsy! I support my CiC because he is my CiC. We have no one else and if he makes blunders okay. If he causes my country to get attacked due to Mexican border negligence, you will see me post his arrogance here on this blog too. Until then I fully support his efforts to keep America terror free. How about you? See Comment #174 above!!! All thrown punches blocked by both sides.
Regarding Wag-the-dog, etc. another thread by Baynative has four posts to DJ describing Clinton’s lack of a war on terror. With that inaction, we have many incidents today attributable to Clinton’s sitting on his hands. Three stiff left jabs, a right cross and a left hook to the midsection.
Regarding Cheney’s deferred payments, look at each admin since Carter where people left big time corp jobs and you will see on both sides how they defer compensation in blind trusts. I already posted on other threads how Clinton used Halliburton to get gas contracts in China and how he used them to rebuild Bosnia. Now who was the head of Halliburton then? I think it was Cheney. Where is the problem using Halliburton then? Trust me, Nancy Pelosi would be trumpeting evidence if there were any tie-ins between Cheney and Halliburton. I remember watching Meet-the-Depressed where Tim Russert challenged a Democratic senator on this an dthe senator backed down saying there was no evidence. A mighty right uppercut to the head! How much more can GBS (Rocky Balboa) take (from Apollo Creed)!
I will quote Nancy Pelosi all I want. Randy Cunningham has his problems and I don’t condone his actions. I don’t condone wrong doing.
Regarding PRR on the flag burning thread, he was reacting to the standard HA lefty commentary. Since DJ says F-Bomb to anyone who calls him on his toilet breath and he gets offended, PRR was leveling the playing field!!!! BTW I don’t condone burning my flag. I don’t see Iranians or Palestinians or Syrians burning their flags in governmental protestations.
The wife knows I like to refute lefty arguments. At a recent July 4th barbie at a lefty friends house, they were quoting segment and verse from Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 movie. I held my peice. When we were leaving the wife commended me on holding my tongue. Why argue with people who use Michael Moore as their New Testament? You have been to the neutral web sites where the Moorisms have been debunked, right GBS? Believe me I am still a full fledged card carry he-man club member.
I am glad to see someone here on the HA lefty side mention that Clinton screwed up on OBL. To me you are the only honest person here on HA. Correct he had many chances to get Osama, but as Baynative posted, Clinton was in Vietnam mindset!!!! Well said Baynative. I suggest reading Dereliction of Duty by Lt. Col. Patterson!
I trust you had a top level security clearance. I know many people who had high level clearances and they are kind of mum on them. Even when they lapse, they still keep what they saw and knew secret.
I like sparring with you. Yes we all get heated. But patriotism to me is not showing the enemy your chinks in the armor. It is not saying things in stoopid comparisons in the Senate chamber that becomes cannon fodder for Al Jazerra. It is not going to the enemy camp and saying your country is a bad place. I say stay out then. For Jane Fonda, Sean Penn, Jennifer Aniston, Natalie Maines from the Drugged Chicks, etc. When Jim McDermott accepts money from the same paymaster as the MP George Galloway, something smells here.
Regarding KKK and Jim Crow laws, I remember a post regarding the Republicans, led by Illinois senator Everett Dirksen who passed the VRA and the CRA, over Democratic people like Robert “KKK Grand Cyclops” Bird, Big Daddy Al Gore Sr., and other Democrats. I’ll never forget the Democrats telling LBJ off about those legislations. So Strom went over to the Republican side. I see Trent Lott was a Republican from his first foray of 1973 in the Congress. Even to his days in the 60’s as a Sigma Nu chapter president, he seemed to be a Repub as I can see. Regarding your honesty question, I look at their votes, not their rhetoric. Most Democrats tried to kill my cousins right to vote, not Republicans. Regarding RWR, he was living in California, not the south, no comparison is correct. So GBS, you are not black and don’t have my perspective. Nice try though!
PackMan-
I hear the RNC pays for trolls on left wing blogs. You are so smooth at this. I wonder…do get paid the word or are you on salary. Or maybe on retainer…like Armstrong Williams.
Based on the record of the Republican party over the last 60 years, I wonder why any person of color in their right mind would ever defend these incompetant, racist, misogynistic, greedy, corrupt misanthropes on their own. But there are well-paid notable exceptions.
You do a great job though, man. Gotta hand it to ya’. They ARE getting their money’s worth. But don’t you feel like a leeeetle bit of a sell out sometimes? No moral judgement. A man’s got to get paid, ya know. Do whatcha gotta do.
You know Rujax206, first you get my name wrong and then you accuse me of being a paid political blogger. I wish! First I was pissed off at the comment, then I calmed down and looked at you words again. Smooth? Naw, I just don’t need to rant like DJ, Don, Loocy, and sometimes you too. Everything you claim about the Repubs, we could look at the previous Demo admins and see many of the same issues. The problem is that Demos are no longer controlling the purse strings. You can no longer call a program cut when it only goes up 5% instead of 8%. You can no longer persuade the masses by only giving half-truths by the liberal MSM. You all like to call it Faux News. I say let both sides of all issues be presented in the marketplace and the best ideas win. You all lost your monopoly!
Let me clue you in on black issues. Maybe you can open your liberally yellow eyes and see the world through my frame of reference.
1.) Democrats regain control of the Congress in 1954. They own the senate until 1980, regain it in 1986, have it until 1994 then regain it in 2001-2002. They owned the House until 1994. What did they deliver for the blacks (and other minorities) in the inner cities? Hmmm… more poverty, more poorly run schools, more drugs, more crime. Who controls the cities, you know the blue areas? Democrats.
2.) VRA & CRA – I distinctly remember the 1965 battles over these legislative accords. Where was your party? Arguing against it. Why did Johnson say he gave the South to the Republican party? You HAs are so naive! It was the Republicans who passed it so the northern Democrats worried blacks would migrate to the Republicans. What stopped the migration of blacks to the right side? Well three things:
A. MLK Jr. death and the national reactions of Democrats. MLK was more of a Demo leaning person but he did say this about moderate Democrats in his letter from the BirmingHam, AL jail:”I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fan in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with an its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.” Who was he talking about – Republicans. No, Democrats. Martin understood the negative movement of the black in 60s society and where are blacks now today based on Democratic promises regarding what Dr. King said?
B. RFK Sr. death and the love of the Kennedy’s by blacks. Eventhough JFK didn’t want to tackle the VRA because he needed the southern democratic vote in 1960, he was looking to run again in 1964, his brother RFK did take on Jim Bull Conner and other racist southern Democrats. We remember that too.
C. RMN becoming president and basically saying I don’t need the black vote. We remember this one. Also Spiro Agnew was a flake to us. If the Repubs put up a candidate that spoke the inner city language, the Demos would have had their asses handed to them.
What has Jesse Jackson done for black cause being the “unofficial mantle holder” for MLK Jr. One word! Nuthin! He panders through his Operation Push Organization by taking on corporations to pay his bills. Just look on Google on who has caved into OP. He claims to make it a better place in his Rainbow Coalition, but as soon as he got paid off nothing really changed in those corporations. Why didn’t he stay and finish the job many of us say. A few years back it was learned that he sent his kids to private schools so they would not be subjected to the inner city Chicago schools. Yet he is against vouchers for other inner city parents to get their children out of the rut and into better schools. He helped destroy the female principal in Chicago who improved inner city elementary test scores of little black boys and black girls by segregating them from each other. The NEA and the Chicago School Board didn’t like her making them look bad. Where was Jesse? He sided with the status quo. Look at Joe Clark in New Jersey where the movie was made about him called “Lean on Me”. Joe Clark was principal of Eastside High School in Paterson, New Jersey. Where was Jesse when Joe was catching flack on his strict methods. Nowhere!
So I am tired of hearing of the unrealized promises of the Democratic party that don’t come true. GWB has reached out to minorities. Why would so many blacks and latinos vote for him in Texas. It’s the national rhetoric from the loudmouths who keep us down. Go visit Sheila Jackson Lee’s Houston district or Maxine Waters LA district. What a joke! All blather, little lather!
BTW I want to answer Headless Loocy’s question on Headstart Programs, but Loocy won’t tell me where Loocy went to school. I want to explain how those programs really work. But another time.
Rujax206, to continue: Where were the voting issues in the last two national elections? Inner cities? Well who controls them, the voting machines, their placement, the people manning the polling stations, the people managing the polling stations? Democrats. You all love to blame Ken Blackwell in Ohio and Katherine Harris in Florida. Doh! You guys control the cities not us. If you all can’t get it together, you decide it’s someone else’s problem. Now what did Jesse Jackson do here. He said the problem was Harris’ and Blackwells’. Wrong Jesse. As the hanging chads was Democratic Theresa LaPore’s design, inner city problems are Democratic problems, not righty problems.
pack…
Despite the bad to despicable record of the Democratic Party of delivering on their promises to the Black electorate…the Dems have never used anything as vile as the “Willie Horton” smear to win an election. The use of covert and overt racist themes is part and parcel of the Republican playbook.
How about the royal screwing Colin Powell got. Condi’s position as the “house girl”. J.C.Watts got shafted (how great to be a Black republican in Ok, eh?), and now Lynn Swann wants to be the next “Token Negro”.
I really would like to see the Dems run as Dems instead of Republican Lite. I believe that the traditional Democratic Party values benefit the poor and the working class…and that the wealth and value that a nation builds is from the bottom up. That is, the better the least of us do…the better ALL of us do.
I tire of this flame-war crap that goes on on the blogs but at least there IS a modicum of political dialogue. I have seen the right-wing noise machine come to thoroughly dominate and control political reporting in this country in my lifetime and as much as they have they grab for more. The suits and the theo-fascists will not rest until the entire system is theirs to manipulate and we are governed completely by corporate interests and religious fanatics.
I believe the old Republican Party with its great values of individualism and personal responsibility has completely disappeared. In the past, the Republican party although it was the party of business, was a party of fiscal and social responsibility. By and by that party has been hijacked by this evil mixture of corruption corporationists and theocrats who have taken over by virtue of the fact that they have virtually all the money.
I could go on, but there’s not a lot of point to it. I get pretty lathered up because I fear for the direction this group is taking us. Mostly I fear there is no way to change anything until and unless the Dems become the fighters that RFK was teaching us to be. We need to be loud and strong in opposition and articulate our message. I fear the elected officials of my party won’t speak out because they are bought and paid for just like the rest (example: Sen. Durbin).
So see you on the other side of an “f” bomb or whatever. I respect you and your views I guess, although I just can’t understand why any sane person would hold them…and I can only imagine how it would feel to be sold out as a cultural group for 200+ years.
So if you can get this bunch to respond for you…really…it will be OUR loss, and we will have deserved to have lost. My guess is that they’ll screw you guys like they always have and like everyone else that gets in their way. Something that the religious will learn in time, too. I have been watching this bunch too long. They are predictable, they are greedy and the ARE ruthless. Later.
P.S. I stll think you’re a shill…but a nice one, OK?
Rujax206: And you is a nice twit, and next to GBS, we be havin a great cons.
Apparently Rujax206 you forgot history. These next few lines have to be in your best Redd Foxx voice. Do you know who first elevated the Willie Horton issue to the national stage? Al Gore! Gore asked Dukakis, in a debate right before the 1988 New York primary, about “weekend passes for convicted criminals.” What you say? Al Gore, the Al Gore? No it can’t be. Al Gore, where did he find that? (End Redd Foxx). It’s true. Al Gore was a mean campaigner and found out the furlough program. The Bush Republican campaign never knew about Willie Horton until the investigated the furlough program identified by Gore. So you have to thank Gore for educating the Bush Campaign.
I remember in early 2000 Bill Bradley said in Iowa that Gore introduced the furlough program into the 1988 Campaign on national TV. I remember Bradley mentioning that Gore could have used other attack methods to show Dukakis was soft on crime. I looked it up to verify my memory. Then remember CNN anchor Bernie Shaw in the debates asking Dukakis about his wife being raped what would he do? Remember the stammering stuttering answer?
Regarding Colin Powell, as I said before there are some whacked out righties similar to the whacked out lefties. Colin is pro choice like me. He is pro affirmative action to a degree like me. He knew what he was getting into. He wanted to be SoS. He stated it and he got his opportunity. Some on your side stifle pro lifers in your party. Both are wrong. What about this JC Watts stuff?
R U inferring Dr. Rice a house nigger? Shame on you Rujax. That language is not tolerated! Dr. Rice is well respected in many circles. It would be an interesting presidential campaign against Hilary if she ran.
Si closing, if the Dems were like Sen. Scoop Jackson or HHH, tough on national defense, for the common man, etc. not like Don, DJ or headless loocy, you guys would have a greater chance. But your side is led by Deaniacs, Michael Moore, etc., so you guys will lose!
Goldy where did my post go?
Lee Atwater took nasty political campaigning to the lowest level since the 1860’s and Karl the Perp copped everything he knows from the vicious one.
Dr. Rice is a Russia and Cold War expert and in completely over her head like the rest of the neo-con team most of whom were Scoop Jackson staffers. He’d be appalled). She’s also sprung on chimpy. No accounting for some women’s taste.
Howard dean is helping us get a backbone again. Michael Moore exposed to the country the lying and incompetence of there weasels. I said…we will not win as republican lite. They killed JFK, RFK and Paul Wellstone. I truly believe these operators have no conscience. No love for anything but money and power. And they WILL do what they WILL do. G’nite.
BTW-If certain words are in posts they are held for approval by the moderator. Even Goldy has SOME standards.
PacMan (Apollo):
PM @ 175:
“GBS: What’s this crap about a knockout?
Let’s first talk about the Kindergarten class and the Pet Goat. Is it more noble to not panic little children by running off hurriedly or having the apparatus in place to start verifying the attack and attackers? Sometimes I wonder about the left and their vainglory attempts to impugn anyone who is against them. A right cross to the body.”
Are you serious, or just kidding me?
Try this one on for size:
Bush’s aide leans into the President’ ear and says “Mr. President a second plane has struck the World Trade Center. Sir, it appears the nation is under attack from terrorists! There are other planes in the air right now that have been hijacked.You have to act now, sir.”
Bush, realizing the gravity of the situation stands up and uses a simple hand gesture towards his aide and in a calm manner says “Hey kids, did you see that man whisper in my ear? He just told me some really, really important presidential stuff.”
Smiling towards the kids President Bush stretches his arms out wide and says “You kids know that being the President is a BIG job and sometimes presidents have to change their plans and take care of other things first. Today is one of those days. So, I’m going to have to leave right now, but I PROMISE you that before this school year is out I’m going to come back and visit your classroom again.”
The president waves to the class, pats a few heads on the way out, and at the doorway he turns, smiles, waves to the entire classroom and says “I’ll be back, that’s my promise to you. Now you kids be good for your teacher and learn as much as you can. And someday you too, can grow up to be the president.”
You see, Apollo, the president doesn’t need to run out in a panic, scaring the kids, nor does he need to sit there wondering what to do next. This is indicative of his leadership skills under pressure.
Apollo Creed throws a right cross to the body, but Apollo’s limp wrists buckled against the mighty trunk of Balboa’s chiseled Greek God like body. (Better have your trainer use a lot more tape on those limp wrists of yours, buddy)
You again @ 175:
“But if Musharraf says do not come into my country, and we do and we get caught, we can have an international incident. Two left hooks to the head.”
Ummm isn’t the War on Terror already an international incident? Haven’t we opened up two fronts on the War on Terror already in other nations? i.e. Afghanistan and Iraq. Haven’t we used Hellfire missiles in Yemen to kill Al Qaeda members? Didn’t Bush promise to the nation in his special State of the Union address after 9/11 that there would be no safe harbor for terrorists? That we’d go after them no matter where in the world they are? “Smoke ’em out of their caves.” And who is Pakistan? The government who installed and supported the Taliban. Do I need to connect the dots for you between the Taliban and OSL? Ooops I guess I just did. A.Q. Kahn? C’mon PacMan, this excuse, and that’s exactly what it is, is lame at best. Did the Taliban invite us into Afghanistan? Did Saddam send in invite? Are you saying we can’t go after OSL unless some guy who overtook the government of Pakistan through a coup says “Hello and welcome to the Quick -E Mart, err, I mean welcome to Pah-Ki-Stan, Mr. Bush, you have MY permission to pursue OSL.” Puh-leeese.
Balboa is bobbing and weaving masterfully, Apollo’s head shots were nothing more than mere glancing blows. Balboa counters with two solid reverse punches to the rib cage and Apollo winced in pain on each blow, knocking the wind out him each time. He’s clearly gasping for air.
You @ 175:
“Regarding Wag-the-dog, etc. another thread by Baynative has four posts to DJ describing Clinton’s lack of a war on terror. With that inaction, we have many incidents today attributable to Clinton’s sitting on his hands. Three stiff left jabs, a right cross and a left hook to the midsection.”
You totally ignore the fact that President Clinton was actively pursuing Al Qaeda with military options while the Republicans were focusing on the threat of President Clinton being in office and not the threat that was gathering against our great nation. The last thing President Clinton was doing was sitting on his hands. Any inaction on his part was from trying to unshackle the republican congress from his hands over Monica.
Balboa parries Apollo’s jabs and blocks the right cross, the left hook almost lands as a low blow. The referee stops the fight and issues a warning to Apollo. There’s a little blood dripping from Apollo’s nose, that’s going to cause some breathing problems for the challenger as the bout progresses. The referee warns that there will be point deductions for any more violations from Apollo and signals both fighters to continue. . .
You @ 175:
This is getting too, easy PM, “Regarding Cheney’s deferred payments, look at each admin since Carter where people left big time corp jobs and you will see on both sides how they defer compensation in blind trusts. ” While this is true, the blind trusts are for compensations, you conveniently left our the stock options. Dick is the only politician not to divorce himself from company options, while doing huge business with their former employers. “Can you say ‘conflict of interest?’ Uh-huh, I knew you could.”
Balboa throws a huge overhand right that smashes right on the nose of Apollo Creed. The crunching blow drives Apollo’s chin crashes right into his chest. He’s now bleeding profusely from his nose.
You @ 175:
“Most Democrats tried to kill my cousins right to vote, not Republicans. Regarding RWR, he was living in California, not the south, no comparison is correct. So GBS, you are not black and don’t have my perspective. Nice try though!”
No I’m not black and so I can’t have your perspective, nor are you white and therefore you can’t have my perspective, either. Nice attempt though!! Rocky and Creed trade a flurry of punches and counter punches.
Now back to your statement. First, you don’t have to live in any specific region to be a racists. RWR was a racists and became the iconic leader of the RNC and he switched from the Dems to the Repubs in Civil Rights era. So not only does the comparison stand, it makes my point all the more effective. Second, there is no DOUBT that most Democrats in that era tried to stop minorities from voting. That is the crux of my very pointed question. I’ll attempt to ask it again but in a different way:
Regarding the people, not the politicians, who lived in the south and supported the KKK, segregation, and Jim Crow laws, did they vacate their homes and move to blue states or did they remain living in the south and vacate the Democratic party and join the Republican party?
I brought up politicians in my last posting of this question and it may have clouded the issue, but I was trying to provide a link to the politicians who supported segregation, like Strom Thurmond, and the general populace who support those candidates. Thanks for bringing up Robert Byrd because you you are proving my point for me. Robert Byrd is one of the few who remained a Democrat but has a seedy, shameful, disgusting past regarding racism. Yet continues to be supported in a Red state, W. Virginia, where 56% voted for Bush compared to 43% for Kerry.
This is the KNOCK OUT question, PacMan. Answer it convincingly and I’m knocked out, fail and you’re knocked out.
What a battle these two champions fought, but only one can come out victorious. This is it folks!! We’re getting ready for the last round. Apollo’s trainers have done an excellent job at stopping the bleeding and reinforcing the limp wrist of Apollo. Balboa, reminiscent of Ali, remained standing in his corner, refusing water and he’s not even listening to the advice of to his trainer. He’s just starring straight into the eyes of Creed across the ring. Apollo, with wads of cotton stuffed up his nose and 2 inches of taped being wrapped on his limpwrists, he casts his eyes down and away from Rocky’s glare.
Ding, Ding: That’s the bell for the 15th and final round; both fighters meet in the center of the ring touch gloves. This promises to be an exciting end to a grueling and brutal boxing match . . .
GBS: That is a hard question to answer. Many people have job mobility and have moved to other locations. I am a case in point. I am coming up there to live. Some have stayed home. Others have moved south to get the warmer climate. But to guess, I would say many have stayed home. Many have died and their children are now voting. Many times people want to keep their elected officials because they bring home the pork.
Why do people vote for their representatives? Two reasons:
1.) The evil that you know vs. the potential evil that you don’t know.
2.) The pork!
Strom and Robert bring home the pork, especially Robert Byrd.
While the Democrats decried Trent Lott and his poor comment on Strom’s 100th birthday, and Lott was forced to resign, Byrd has never been put on the carpet regarding his comments. Lott said his statement in 2002. Byrd said his statements in 2001. Byrd said: “There are white niggers. I’ve seen a lot of white niggers in my time. I’m going to use that word. We just need to work together to make our country a better country, and I’d just as soon quit talking about it so much.” – Talk about offensive. But he gets a pass from your side. Where is Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Sheila Lee, Maxine Waters, and the gang of inflammatory congresspeople yelling get rid of him?
Senator Byrd filibustered for more than 14 hours the landmark 1964 Civil Rights Act, which was supported by a majority of those wascally Republicans. Byrd opposed the Supreme Court nominations of the Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas. Byrd opposed desegregation of the armed forces.
I found this on the Internet: Byrd said: “I will never fight under that banner with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.” – That sickens me. But he represents West Virgina. People in WV have to look beyond the pork issues and get him out the door for good.
All right, PacMan, I’ll accept your answer, and your charges and questions against Byrd are well founded and correct. Personally, I would’ve preferred to see Byrd forced out of the party a long time ago based solely on his personal conduct and his comments. They are disgraceful for any American, particularly for someone who can legislate law.
I’ll disagree with you that this is a difficult question to answer. While there are variables regarding peoples need to move for reasons of employment, education, military service, etc. the overall truth of the matter is the south changed politically it was mostly born of the same people who always lived there. The south is still very racially divided today as it was in the 60’s. Whites don’t like blacks and blacks don’t like whites. The prominence of racism is relegated more to the closet because of the federal legislation outlawing that type of behavior or discriminatory laws, like Jim Crow laws or not being able to vote. In the end of the day that’s all Liberals ever really did for minorities. All the other programs, good or bad, I really can’t say because as I said before I’ll never truly be able to see things 100% from your perspective as a black man. But one thing I can relate to 100% is you have a voice in the political process. How you choose to express that voice is your personal decision to make, not that of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or anyone else. That’s what they did for you. It took mostly black and some white people to form protest marches against racism, but in that period of our history only a white man could sign the legislation that changed the course of history.
The bottom line is that southern white people left the Democratic party and joined the Republican party en masse during the late ’60’s and 70’s. This was by and large accomplished through the Republican party’s efforts known as the Republican Southern Strategy. It’s basic premise was to only pander to the political whims of Christian white people. At the time the sheer numbers of a white majority would always prevail in getting the types of politicians into office that white people wanted. President Nixon ran in the ’68 election on this policy. He called it “Positive Polarization.” PacMan, that’s the ultimate oxymoron in American history as compared to “United we stand, divided we fall.”
The one dose of criticism I will dispense PacMan, is that you seem to hold grudges against groups of people for a very long periods of time. i.e. the following generations of anti-war protestors of the 60’s are somehow anti-military Liberals today. The Democrats of the 50’s and 60’s are not the same Democrats of today. Back then many of them were bad. Those same people overwhelmingly joined the Republican party of today.
One more question PacMan, your comment “I am a case in point. I am coming up there to live.” Are you saying you personally are moving to the Seattle area? Or am I just misunderstanding.
OK, can’t stay to ready your replys. I have to get over to the library and pick up my wife and kids.
GBS: I had to help my son out so I am back. Yes I will be coming up north to Gregoire Country. Date TBD. I would like to meet all of you at a drinking liberally.
I thought more of your question and then your answer. If you spend a minute and cogitate, I think you can answer your own question. When the Democrats put up a Bill Clinton, who seemed to be more mainstream Democratic, your party won many southern states. When your team put up flames such as Al Gore and John Kerry your side loses the south. I don’t think there is a migration to the Republican party, it’s more of the candidates being put forth. I still believe the south is mostly Democratic. The flaming lefties are being rejected more often now.
I read your response and perhaps if you were to ruminate on the topic yourself, my friend, you’d see that there is a much stronger pattern of electing Republican officials at local, state, and national offices (congerss)in the south than Democrats. I would suggest these types of voting patterns are indicative of the political landscape of the South. Ultra Conservative.
In 1992, Ross Perot, was really the catlyst for Clinton’s victory. Let’s face it, Ross Perot garnered 20% of the vote and he’s no Liberal. Those votes were siphoned off of 41’s vote tally. In that time period the American people were none to happy about the third major recession since 1980, and conservatives were also not happy about “Read my lips. NO NEW TAXES.”
The same thing happened for W in 2000. With Ralph Nader getting 175,000 votes in Florida, that came off of Gore’s column. To be sure, if you’re so far to the left that Gore is too conservative, you’re not going to vote for Bush.
I think I can shoot one more hole in that swiss cheese defense of yours: in 1996 Clinton had won in a landslide, but on very low voter turn out. The Republican party and it’s base were fomenting to remove Clinton from office even though he won more southern states than Dole. White Water, travel gate, file gate, whatever, the Republicans were attempting to subvert the will of the American people and the Constitutional electoral process by impeaching Clinton.
You’ll have to research your own data, but if you do, you’ll discover the south has far more registered R’s than D’s.
Dude! Have you checked out the weather up here? It’s still f’ing raining!! You sure you want to live up here? (LOL)
Rocky Balboa is the last man standing.
It is sad to find pathetic discussions and assumptions lingering here. Terrorism is not a new phenonmenon. It has been around before you ignorant jerks were born. It comes in different forms eg. seperatist, nationalist, revolutionaty and Religious.
But my focus is the current mayhem in the world today. Terrorism is obviously not a good way in getting your point or message across but whether you like it or not, western leaders bear a huge load of responsibility to the current mayhem before 9-11 and after, go do your homework.
‘Nobody is born a terrorist, people are made terrorist.
If the perpetrators were able to fight with conventional weapons the level of violence would not reach the magnitide resulting in using bombs.
Global south countries and the middle east suffer from economic, social and political instability all relating from years of pressure and double standards from western countries. These are factors that highly contribute to terrorist activities.
It is stupid, ignorant and shortsighted to say only that they hate our freedom, our way of life etc. This is a complex issue.