Political insiders are speculating that after his razor-thin loss in the governor’s race, Dino Rossi will turn his sights to Maria Cantwell’s US Senate seat in 2006. Indeed, Cantwell’s staff is already gearing up for a Rossi challenge, and promises to respond with a tougher campaign than Rossi faced from Christine Gregoire.
But I’m not so certain “Rossi for US Senate” is such a sure thing. Rossi has young children, and a move to the other Washington would be more than a little disruptive. Plus, I’ve always suspected that George Nethercutt’s failed senate campaign was a trial run to build up statewide name recognition — he would have been foolish to relinquish his cozy congressional seat without being promised a shot at Cantwell if he lost to Murray. (And besides, I couldn’t help but think those odd kibitzing-with-the-wife ads were more the opening of the ’06 campaign than the close of the ’04 one.)
But there’s another reason to suspect that Rossi may not be the anointed challenger in ’06… word has it that the anointer himself is quietly exploring a run of his own.
Of course, I’m talking about our state’s second-best-known lying, hypocritical loudmouth… Chris Vance. And with his hyperbolic performance during the protracted recount melodrama, the GOPolitburo Chair is poised to seize the top loudmouth spot from long-time champion, Tim Eyman.
Washington state is cursed with some of the nation’s most boring politicians: for every Jim McDermott there seem to be a hundred Gary Lockes. And into this void stepped Eyman, blithely spewing pithy, mean-spirited soundbites, unhindered by constituency or decorum… or the truth.
But with Tim’s political relevance shrinking faster than Alice down the rabbit-hole, Vance has exploited the election controversy to fill the vacuum with his own Eymanesque, anti-government rhetoric. And the media has rewarded him with the kind of news coverage any ambitious politician would die for. There are winners and losers in every election, but in this race, Chris Vance appears to be both.
While our friend Timmy would never run for elected office (he couldn’t afford the pay cut,) Vance has not abandoned his personal, political ambitions. Thrust upon a statewide (and national) stage, he appears intent on making the most of it. And what could be more enticing to an ambitious politician than a coveted seat in the US Senate?
Dino Rossi has gained nearly as much statewide name recognition from the recount as he did from the campaign itself, but in the self-promotion game, Vance has placed a very close second. While Rossi has struggled to maintain a mild-mannered, statesmanlike mien, Vance has hardened the hearts of the party faithful with his fiery accusations of Democratic corruption and his blithe, Orwellian doublespeak. If as the commentators on the right-wing blogs suggest, the battle-cry for WA Republicans should be “Throw the crooks out!”, then who better to represent this party-of-the-wronged against Cantwell than the man who refused to surrender in the face of all odds, all obstacles and all reason?
In an election contest, whatever it might do to the perceived integrity of the system, and whatever the result… Chris Vance figures that he will come out a winner. Any media attention is good attention; that’s the first page from the Tim Eyman playbook.
But Dino Rossi may not fare so well. He has surely benefited from the perception — misguided as it may be — that he was the “legitimate” winner after two counts, and Democrats were poor losers in seeking a third. But with every passing day that Gregoire holds the mantle of Governor-elect, this perception fades and the roles reverse. And should he drag this election through the courts, yet fail to prove the so-far-unsubstantiated allegations of fraud and corruption, any good will he has wrongly earned thus far by playing the martyr, will evaporate beneath the glaring spotlight of media scrutiny.
It is ironic then, that the man who most strongly urges Rossi to pursue this contest to the bitter end is the man who stands to gain the most by either victory or defeat. Should Rossi, against all odds, overturn this election, then Vance would have eliminated his most formidable opponent for the ’06 nomination. But should this gambit fail, as it most surely will, then Rossi will emerge politically diminished — a bitter, recalcitrant loser — a weakened rival to the firebrand Vance for the hearts of the party faithful.
I understand if Dino Rossi is gravely disappointed — indeed, suspicious — at his sudden reversal of fortune. But when he takes council from the likes of Chris Vance, he should take care to consider whether he is being asked to sacrifice his own ambitions, for the ambitions of others.
Again, I support Maria “Soup” Cantwell and Mary Lane better watch out, because Joe Kunzler’s already requisitioning ammo for the re-elect of the Soup in ’06!
Oh and the Vaninator – as you should call him – he’s NO Marummy! No Mary Lane! Marummy speaks for the troops, a whole lot better than the Vaninator. Now, if he’s lying – he should be sued.
All mainstream Republicans, most elected officials and the Media are all calling for a concession. Any more than a couple more days of whinning and Rossi is going to look go downhill fast.
Vance and the gang are now starting to make Michael Moore and the Swift Boat guys look like moderates with the screaming red faced rhetoric that is coming out “IT’S NOT OVER!….COME BACK….#&$*$#*, I AM THE CHAIRMAN, COME BACK I SAY AND FIGHT.”
Another bright line will be Thursday after Reed certifies. If Rossi doesn’t concede after that, he’s not going to have many friends.
Comment by Erik— 12/24/04 @ 9:24 pm
That is if we don’t have the evidence we need…
Josef has so many pet names for people I can’t tell who the hell he’s trying to make comparisons between these days.
Oh… neither one of them is going to beat Cantwell. She learned her lesson as to what happens to a Democrat around these parts when they run such a weak campaign against a guy who sits far to the right of most of Washington’s values. She’s hot too – that never hurt.
Oh… one more thing – you don’t have any evidence Josef. I predict the Republicans will fold before they’re forced to show their hand. They um… don’t have one. They never did. They never DO. In most places nobody even asks for proof.
Boy is this one strung out thread……….better find some spools.
Cantwell has money, strong base, and giant killer status. Plus she is now established as an incumbert. She has also pushed to the center- possible asset in some sectors.
What R- will run aginst her….at least a couple. Chris Vance, you must be drinking to much rum, Goldy. Now tell me he is endorsed by Ellen, Val, and John Carlson. Why not Tim Eyman to boot.
By the way – off year is a very strange political climate compared to presidential. Different voters, a fraction of the interest level, and much less money all around.
Goldy — you have got to be joking. Vance does a halfway acceptable job as state GOP chair, just as Paul Berendt does as state Democrat chair. Both of them can be hysterical crybabies when the moment in time calls for it. But I do not think the middle-of-the-road voter would vote for either one of them. Nor would the faithful of either party think that either Vance or Berendt would stand a chance in a competitive race.
Vance has run for two major races, and with considerable financial backing. He has gotten his tail kicked both times. In 1996, he ran for Superintendent of Public Instruction. No qualifications whatsoever — just a liberal arts degree from Western Wa Univ. But he managed to raise several hundred thousand from party moneybags. He was eliminated in the primary with only 12% of the vote. In 2000, he ran for Congress against Adam Smith, and managed to raise about $800,000. Once again, he got his rear end kicked, with just under 35% of the vote. He received even less than that percentage in the King County Council district that he had represented for the last seven years.
The prevailing wisdom amongst Republicans is that Vance ran for state party chair in 2001, because he didn’t think he had a chance of being re-elected to the King County Council, and that he wanted to be assured of having a full-time job. Even with that caveat in mind, the state party committee chose Vance for the job, because they felt he was the best of the three candidates running.
As for Tim Eyman, I think he will enjoy quite a bit of success in coming years if Gregoire becomes Governor, and will be shut out of business if Rossi somehow manages to reverse this. Eyman lost this year, because he had an unpopular gambling initiative on the ballot, and not one of his tax reduction initiatives. Just remember — even if Gregoire managed to beat Rossi by 130 votes or so, that more than 51% of the voters did not want Gregoire as Governor. If Eyman sponsors a tax reduction initiative, you can count on it passing. Just remember that Eyman’s tax reduction initiatives have always gotten several percent more than the combined GOP & Libertarian voting support.
Rossi does not have any duty to concede, and making a concession has absolutely no legal effect. Nor does Rossi have to be a party to any election contest or lawsuit — state statutes and federal case law allow any registered voter to bring such an action. Even if Rossi were to “concede”, a successful election challenge would still result in either nullification of the election just the same.
Best thing for Rossi to do right now is to enjoy the holidays. Let Chris Vance and the state GOP fight any necessary battles. If these are not successful, then go on with life. If the challenge is successful, then be prepared to either take the oath of office or to run in a special election.
Gregoire has the most to lose in public relations — even if she becomes and stays Governor. She called it a “tie” at 261 votes, and to be triumphalist and claim a mandate with a 130 vote margin will upset more people than just the slightly more than 51% of the people who voted against her.
Richard… whether I am joking or not about Vance eying the senate, I choose to keep close to the vest.
But I will take issue with two of your comments. First of all, it is naive to say that Vance or the BIAW or whoever can contest this election and it’s out of Rossi’s hands. If Rossi concedes… if he tells them to drop it and move on… they will do as he says. The Dems got their asses kicked during the PR war of the past 6 weeks because they attacked Vance, while the GOP attacked Gregoire. I don’t care who officially files suit, or who pays the lawyers, they will be doing it on behalf of Rossi, and I intend to help make him pay the political price. Fair is fair.
As to Eyman, I won’t be so arrogant as to definitively say that he is finished, but rumors of his political life have been greatly exaggerated. He has failed two years running to raise the money needed to get one of his “populist” initiatives on the ballot, and I-892 only made it with a million bucks of gambling industry money. He simply does not have the grassroots to qualify an initiative with volunteers, and his fundraising has been remarkably consistent over the past two years… consistently short of the mark. Furthermore, his “mandatory performance audits” initiative is a dog, that will not excite his base, and will not attract a sugar daddy. He’s also talked about a son-of-892, but I know for a fact that his gambling industry backers will not given him the money.
On top of all that, Eyman has been steadily losing traction with the media. In this what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, Eyman hasn’t done much of anything lately.
Now I may occasionally talk out of my ass on some subjects, but one thing I know is Eyman. And our friend Timmy has definitely peaked.
Richard – similar to how Bush enjoyed more support during his first years as President, despite losing the popular vote (and having a contentious election), I think Gregoire will be just fine. I don’t think everyone’s going to “rally around her”, but I expect the vast majority of people to just move on, not sit around fomenting and waiting for someone like Tim Eyman to give them an outlet.
Tim’s being done in by his own arrogance, same as that guy in Oregon. He forgets that he can only hide behind his faux-populism for so long before people realize he’s mostly out to enrich himself. Everything else is secondary. And guys like him always end up going down on fraud charges – they just can’t resist the money.
Vance may want it, but the Senatorial committee recruiters and the money guys will go after Rossi, unless he self-destructs with the help of Vance in this process. One has to remember, that the committee members of the Republican party, who vote the chair in, are not from the moderate wing of the party. Those people want revenge and if Vance wants to keep his job he probably has to appease them to some degree. Rossi is telegenic.
With that said, two years can be an eternity in the political world. With the current mess in Iraq worsening by the hour, 2006 could be a tough year to be a Republican. Plus Cantwell is far better in front of cameras than Gregoire.
I didn’t agree much with anything Goldy said in this blog.
That’s okay Jenny, it’s no fun if everybody always agrees with me. That said, it’s not always so important what I say, but why I say it.
Yeah, well methinks the last thing a Rossi Administration would want is a Tim Eyman running around to their right… and supposedly they’re friends (but I doubt that it’s more than Eyman being gaga for somebody who’s even slightly libertarian).
But Gregoire could restart Eymanism (as in the movement) because of her governance style and arrogance. That’s a valid possibility, but then again: Eyman himself is on the wane. Everybody dismisses him now that, even with corporate North American help, he can’t get his initiatives passed.
I’m not going to back down against Eyman and Eymanism just because the Grinch is Gov’r… :-)!
Make that Gregovich and Governor-elect for Ukraine County, the bureaucracy and the Olympic Peninsula…!
Maria C. will continue to build a very large amount of public respect if she continues to lead the charge in the matter of Enron’s overcharging Snohomish County. And her looks won’t hurt.
Looks like Goldy was right:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....nor25.html
Republican hopes are fading fast (media loves to report on anything they see as a “trend”) with every passing day after the definitive third count. So their only hope now is to show fraud/illegal votes and contest the election.
Even that, I believe, is a PR ploy to help drum up support for their claims of a “stolen election” so they can use it as a campaign issue next time around (06 or 08).
Comment by jcricket— 12/25/04 @ 8:59 am
The one who thinks disenfranchising the military speaks…
My faith in my State SecDef and my Commander-in-Chief remain strong. We’re not ceding one inch. Screw Christmas, we’re in a fight to be won. Maybe you should read http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....learn.html and get a gist of our fighting spirit…
Besides, if Gov’r-elect Rossi ever gets in – then we will have more freedoms, cleaner elections and less unelected boards telling us how to live our lifes.
A thought from this centrist… and NO, Christine
GregoireGregovich is notrnor!GO CANTWELL!
Comment by jcricket— 12/25/04 @ 8:59 am
The one who thinks disenfranchising the military is okay speaks…
My faith in my State SecDef and my Commander-in-Chief Rossi remain strong. We’re not ceding one inch. Screw Christmas, we’re in a fight to be won. Maybe you should read http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....learn.html and get a gist of our fighting spirit… Gov’r-elect Rossi’s statement is at http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....rossi.html
Besides, if Gov’r-elect Rossi ever gets in – then we will have more freedoms, cleaner elections and less unelected boards telling us how to live our lives. What’s wrong with that?!?
A thought from this centrist… and NO, Christine Gregovich is notrnor!
P.S. GO CANTWELL! GO DINO!
Josef – I fear you’re losing it. You know I’m not in favor of disenfranchising the military. I’m not in favor if disenfranchising anyone. But I also don’t think we should change the rules in the middle, like you’ve always said. There were, no doubt, non-military individuals who got their absentee ballots too late due to Postal Service snafus. That’s regrettable, but it’s not election fraud. I support moving the primary up earlier next time around, to allow for more time to get the absentee ballots out for the general election.
Christine Gregoire is governor elect. After certification on Thursday, she’ll be governor. If the Republicans, at that point, decides to contest the election, they can – but we don’t know where that would lead if they somehow won their case. Even if it goes (somehow) to a new election, Rossi’s still got an uphill battle to climb before you can call him Governer elect.
I understand your passionate about this, but take a deep breath and exhale…
I just did.
“I’m not in favor if disenfranchising anyone. But I also don’t think we should change the rules in the middle, like you’ve always said.”
Well, your State Supremes did by saying that recanvassing can happen after certification.
“There were, no doubt, non-military individuals who got their absentee ballots too late due to Postal Service snafus. That’s regrettable, but it’s not election fraud.”
Agree. But if the elections office can screw up and add ballots, then military ballots can be added.
“If the Republicans, at that point, decides to contest the election, they can – but we don’t know where that would lead if they somehow won their case. Even if it goes (somehow) to a new election, Rossi’s still got an uphill battle to climb before you can call him Governer elect.”
A-men. And I intend to help him and Marummy fight it, as I would US Senator John Kerry if Ohio can be proven as doing the same kind of antics Ukraineg County did to Rossi.
Finally, Christine Gregovich is NOT my Governor!
The slim win gives Christine a much better chance to govern than Rossi would have had, because the Democrats control the Legislature. I’ve voted many times by absentee ballot because my hubby was serving at various military bases, and I had to be on my toes to make sure my ballot was sent early enough to be counted. Yet, I don’t know if any of them were ever counted! We have been shown some of the “pot holes” in our voting system, we need to stop arguing over who won and start fixing the system so votes will be counted, and counted correctly the first time next time! We can send men to the moon but we can’t . . . .
Dino Rossi is an absolute idiot for letting his sore loser status become the subject around the tables of Christmas Eve and Christmas Day dinners around the state. His ardent supporters–including this comment from Josef–show similar equal disdain for this important holiday:
Screw Christmas, we’re in a fight to be won.
Be sure to tell your kids “Screw Christmas” and to teach them let’s fight to win. What despicable values.
Comment by WesternFlyer— 12/25/04 @ 10:33 am
Because there are things more important than holidays, you fool! Like liberty, justice and democracy! Just ask the people of the Ukraine going to the polls tomorrow!
No conceding. We fight to the finish!
Your values are loopy, Josef. I actually don’t think Dino can pretend to honor Christianity and then have people like you running around saying “Screw Christmas.”
Knowing when to quit/when to press on is another good value a leader must display. Thankfully, CG persisted when the pressure on her to concede was excrutiating. We will see if Dino has Chritine’s ‘nads.
â€Because there are things more important than holidays, you fool! Like liberty, justice and democracy! Just ask the people of the Ukraine going to the polls tomorrow!
No conceding. We fight to the finish!â€
This kind of statement and his response to what is happening, only points to one thing…. He is a loner, has no family, and has lost all mental capability for reason.
Fact, Dino is finished. Fact, Gregiore will be Governor. Fact, you really have lost it.
DCF… absolutely! I’ve been doing some research and it looks like Thurston County has a great solution to military ballots… overseas military personnel can receive their ballots via email, as Word file attachments, and then just print them off and send them back. That way they can always be assured of getting their ballots on time. (Though the military post still has to get them to the USPS.)
Well, I am sure Dino is enjoying Christmas. Just like he enjoyed Thanksgiving in the Carribean, when the first recount was completed. Hopefully, Christine was able to enjoy Thanksgiving, and is enjoying Christmas too. More of us should do the same.
If there is an election contest, it should only be done if there is evidence to support it. With a race this close, Dino can’t be be blamed for waiting a few days for the party folks to see if this evidence exists. Hopefully, not too many people are looking for it today.
Your values are loopy, Josef. I actually don’t think Dino can pretend to honor Christianity and then have people like you running around saying “Screw Christmas.”
I meant scew the idea of taking a holiday… our troops don’t get one, do they?
Knowing when to quit/when to press on is another good value a leader must display. Thankfully, CG persisted when the pressure on her to concede was excrutiating. We will see if Dino has Chritine’s ‘nads.
WesternFlyer, oh he does. As does Marummy. As do I. Press on. The evidence is becoming clearer by the day, the urgency growing bolder – we know how to say NO!
Fact, Dino is finished. Fact, Gregiore will be Governor. Fact, you really have lost it.
Comment by Karen— 12/25/04 @ 11:24 am
Fact: The rules were changed. Recanvassing for electoral office mistakes is allowed.
Fact: We will have an election contest. Dino Rossi can just as easily become governor.
Fact: You don’t know me or who Rossifarians are, so don’t make judgments about me as a person.
Just because I say press on rather colorfully doesn’t mean I’m crazy!
Comment by Goldy— 12/25/04 @ 11:56 am
Good point. Now if only 38 other counties would do the same…
In the meantime, the afterburners remain on. Fight’s on. GO DINO!
If there is an election contest, it should only be done if there is evidence to support it. With a race this close, Dino can’t be be blamed for waiting a few days for the party folks to see if this evidence exists. Hopefully, not too many people are looking for it today.
Comment by Richard Pope— 12/25/04 @ 12:10 pm
I agree and yes, there will be strong evidence. Got my word on that.
To All;
You respectfully started this when you choose to put more faith in laywers than in ballots. That faith was rightfully placed, it seems. Now, turnabout is fair play…
To All;
You respectfully started this when you choose to put more faith in lawyers than in ballots. That faith was rightfully placed, it seems. Now, turnabout is fair play…
Comment by Josef— 12/25/04 @ 12:27 pm
â€Comment by Josef
Fact: The rules were changed. Recanvassing for electoral office mistakes is allowed.
Fact: Rules were not changed. The election in King County had not been certified on the manual recount and it was up to the Supreme Court about whether those 700+ ballots would be counted. “From the Seattle Times: The state Supreme Court ruled unanimously Wednesday that the votes could be counted. After the court’s ruling, King County reviewed 735 ballots that county officials said had been improperly rejected, and the county’s canvassing board ruled yesterday that 566 of them were valid. All other counties have been certified and they cannot be re-canvassed. That is according to our state law – Duffus!
Fact: We will have an election contest. Dino Rossi can just as easily become governor.
Fact: There must be just cause, evidence of fraud, and there is NONE!
Fact: You don’t know me or who Rossifarians are, so don’t make judgments about me as a person. Just because I say press on rather colorfully doesn’t mean I’m crazy!
Fact: You are correct, I don’t know you. But you seem incapable of reading the facts and comprehending them. You ramble on and on half-cocked with no evidence, all words and accusations based on fear of losing. There comes a point in time when those who supported Dino need to realize they fought for their man and he lost. IT IS OVER!
There is NO evidence to support an election contest. This is a total pipe dream for all you “Rossifarians†or whatever you want to call yourself.
Josef wrote: “The evidence is becoming clearer by the day, the urgency growing bolder”
Uh, I think the exact opposite is happening. Gregoire’s gained since the first count, and Rossi’s lost. Republicans have lost their most recent legal battle, and are losing the support of the media and public. Each time they make accusations and fail to prove them they lose a little more credibility, as do you Josef. Republicans had 5 weeks now to show fraud, malfeasance, etc. and never provided any evidence except press releases.
The tide is definitely in the Democrats favor, and while it could shift again, I doubt it will. Courts, Dems, media, SOS, county auditors, etc. all against you. And the “people” are even more tired now than they were when the machine recount happened.
Josef accuses: “you choose to put more faith in lawyers than in ballots.”
Hooey. This has nothing to do with faith (a point that should be especially poignant today). We (I, Democrats, Republicans, you) vote and look to the ballots to find out who got more votes. Lawyers argue about what ballots should or shouldn’t be counted. And courts decide, and we finish counting. That’s that.
And Josef, since you’re so fixated on King County’s 735 misfiled ballots and the Supreme Court’s decision that existing law allowed the canvassing board to count (or reject) them… don’t you forget that Christine won the election even without including those votes. Your guy lost. Deal with it and quit your bellyaching. Yelling louder doesn’t make you seem smarter.
You do realize you are starting to sound like Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, aka “Baghdad Bob”, aka “Comical Ali” — Saddam Hussein’s information minister who dutifully made hilarious predictions of victory right up to the end… you realize that, don’t you?
Comment by Karen— 12/25/04 @ 12:45 pm
Comment by jcricket— 12/25/04 @ 12:52 pm
I am going to respond to you 2 Gregovich supporters here. Dealing w/ people like you… I wonder how Marummy puts up with this.
#1. I believe the three of us are making subjective judgments on whether or not the evidence exists. That said, let me note that white-out was used on some ballots, that there are some rather questionable voter registrations and that there are serious questions about ballot security.
#2. If King County can recanvass after the certification of the machine (and in their case partial manual) recount – then so should any other county…
#3. Thank Goldy for the term Rossifarian
#4. You need evidence? Maybe you should go visit my blog http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com and spend a half-hour… Besides, press releases should have a basis in fact!
Karen finally, let’s for now stop the fact-counterfact crap. Neither one of us is convincing the other.
Comment by David— 12/25/04 @ 1:15 pm
Yeah, well we will have the evidence. Comparing me to Baghdad Bob Berendt is turnabout, I suppose. Since I’m still a Democrat, I guess I should have seen that coming. But I have a better idea: Call me Josefie after U.S. Deputy SecDef Paul “Wolfie” Wolfowitz. After all, I’m a Rossifarian and I am arguably State SecDef Mary “Marummy” Lane’s loyal deputy.
Also I’m fixated on all sorts of things – changed rules, questionable voter registrations, white-out on ballots, and more. This isn’t over yet and you’re not going to intimidate anybody into backing down.
Okay, David – and you all – at http://tinyurl.com/5es2d is where I posted the events leading up to 16 December for your perusal…
That didn’t work out, so here goes: http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....-dots.html
Yes, I did coin the term “Rossifarian”. But Josef… I meant it as a pejorative.
Okay, I looked it up :-)
I now name all Rossi supporters Rossi Yushchenkossites! (Get it Yushchenko – Rossi – Yushchenkossites!)
GO Yushchenkossites!
“Queer” was a pejorative term once, too. Interesting how groups often co-opt and embrace insults.
David – go to unSound and post some stuff about Queer Nation – you will be surprised at the hysteria that phrase evokes. Will do good for them on a stale, raining Christma day……please
Don’t worry – y.t. isn’t homophobic…
Josef –
1) We’re not using selective judgement. The Republicans have had weeks to present evidence of ballot security problems, ballot validation problems, etc. They’ve had observers every step of the way in KC. No evidence has been presented. Not to the media and not to the courts (where it really matters). They have claims and accusations, but no evidence. Serious people think that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and that we’ve found WMDs, when even the president admits both are false. You’re in the same category as those people – clinging on to accusations as fact because your side can’t meet the burden of proof. Just like previous posters you toss out specific allegations of “white out” or “questionable registrations” but it’s all smoke and mirrors – never anything more.
#2 King County didn’t re-canvass – they finished canvassing. Read the Supreme Court decision – it clearly states that these ballots in question were never fully questioned. Regardless, they counted these ballots (and rejected the improper ones) before their certification of the hand recount. Other counties have already certified, so the chance as passed (according to SOS Sam Reed) for them to re-visit their decisions.
It’s not fact-counterfact if you fail to produce any facts. We’ve presented you with the facts in the written documents produced by the Supreme Court, words from SOS Sam Reed, Republican county auditors and the Republican member of the KC canvassing board. All of them contradict your various arguments.
Rossi lost in a legally conducted hand-recount. The counties have certified. The only way Rossi can change things is to gather up enough evidence (not just speculation and accusation, but something the court can actually look at) to contest the election. Reports of what the Republicans have been able to present so far don’t look good – ballots that have actually been counted, others rejected because of voter error.
The pattern here is clear. Rossi supporters make bold accusations, but when the time comes to present evidence to support those accusations, they always fall short.
Never fully questioned should be never fully canvassed (sorry about that)
Comment by jcricket— 12/25/04 @ 3:43 pm
Like I posted earlier, I am working on a point-by-point reply. Check back around 8-9 PM for a status report.
A draft dossier – sometime tomorrow…
Goldy- next to the earlier (days ago) comment regarding sending electronic voting machines out to all absentee voters in Snohomish County, your praise of e-mailing ballots to the soldiers in Iraq has me lol… Unfortunately, many soldiers have not thought the idea to be so good, much less funny.
The biggest disgrace of this election is the cavalier attitude that was taken toward the overseas military voter. That is not meant to be a pro-Rossi or anti-Gregoire statement. It would be a disgrace if we had NOT had a close election. And too many people are willing to shift blame from the county auditors and elections departments, onto the post office.
With the help of the Libertarians, we really screwed up big time, and too little effort was made.
Beginning with the Civil War, this nation had really made the effort- ESPECIALLY WHEN OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS ARE AT WAR to be sure that those doing the fighting and risking their lives had the opportunity to vote. During the Second World War we were able to get ballots to combat zones throughout the world, and get them back in time to be counted- with much more primitive technology.
I saw a lot of effort made on behalf of people who could have gotten to the polls- I have seen all too little effort- including by the Republicans, until they belatedly realized they could be the key to the election.
It is disgraceful.
Comment by Jim King— 12/25/04 @ 10:19 pm
I concur, and those votes who came in late and can be verified as valid should be counted. To copycat Gregovich: Screw the canvassing rules – I want my Rossifarian lawyer lapdogs to eat the Gregovich lawyer lapdogs and make that happen. Get the picture? Weird world.
Jim – just add in ballots to body armor you can buy in any cop supply store and armored Humvees…..armored supply trucks…. and for a corallary kicker, closing VA hospitals, and a three year wait to get your pension. 1,300 dead, 25,000 wounded…..can’t hire secretaries to process pension paperwork. Oh, really.
Talk to those running the war first. Many thing I can get angry about, a few I can influence nearby. The war is not one of them, many disgraces…..talk to the hawks running the show.
In all this discussion about overseas military ballots, I’ve never seen any numbers, only accusations and generalities. Has anyone ever stated 1) how many absentee ballots were sent overseas, 2) how many came back on time, and 3) how many didn’t get back on time for whatever reason?
… and 4) how many didn’t get back in time because they didn’t arrive in the voter’s hands early enough?
Well as one that has voted absentee in the military system, I think it would be best to have a DOD form absentee ballot, that all states and counties would accept. This would eliminate the wait for a ballot in the mail. As to getting it back on time that should be fairly easy to cover, as long as the ballot has the correct postmark, and the Snail Office gets it there at all. I disagree with Jim, in that the Snail Office doesn’t deserve some blame in the late/non-delivery of ballots. Our new found electronic age is not always the best, the old antiquated ways were in many cases better. Just look at the last two day’s snafus on the part of the airlines (computer malfunction shuts down thousands of flights; the baggage of thousands of travelers separated from their owners) and I think my point is made.
I want to comment on Cantwell, I don’t believe that she is so rock solid with some of us Democrats. She voted for the Iraqi war, and when I challenged her in an e-mail she swore that the WMD premise was CORRECT! She also said that she would spend her own money to run for the Senate, and she did, but when the stock market tanked, she started doing fundraisers to put money back into her private coffers, in my opinion she’s a female Nethercutt, says one thing to get elected and then does the opposite after she’s safely in.
I’d think that if the Republicans wanted to knock off someone, they’d use their best candidate to go after McDermott.
Comment by DCF— 12/26/04 @ 8:25 am
Actually, the stock market bottomed out on Senator Cantwell right after the campaign. She had no choice after taking out loans based on her I-net company stock (I think it’s RealMedia, I KNOW it makes RealPlayer)…
Hah!
McDermott’s seat is about as safe a Democratic seat as you can find in this nation. Only a Democrat can challenge McDermott, and no Democrat who cared a whit about his future in the party would.
That said, I think there is a good chance that Jim will retire after this term… in which case there will be a helluva free-for-all within the Democratic party to grab that nomination.
BBY- those running the war are NOT running Washington’s elections- nice attempted diversion from our screw-up here, but it does NOT address the issue- why don’t we really give a damn about getting a ballot in their hans in a timely manner, and getting it back?
And DCF- Snail Mail can’t do shit if WE don’t get the ballots to Snail Mail in a timely manner- which is what happened here. And Washington does not require a postmark- only a signature and a date by the overseas military voter (the date being election day or earlier).
We didn’t get the ballots to them on time, because it would have taken a little extra effort to send out a timely ballot, to possibly be followed by a revised ballot if (when) the court decided on the Libertarian challenge. We (as a state) mostly thought that was just too much trouble…
Folks- remember the new election system- Top Two- a Democrat can chall;enge McDermott all the way to the general election. A very different dynamic.
One of the things I like best about top two is that it will threaten incumbants in safe seats- keep them on their toes…
Come on Jim King – the postal system is owned by the gevernment last time I looked. US militiary is part of the same Govt….and nobody hates sailors, soldiers and marines, and fly people…even those who are anti-war.
Priority mail. FREE, both direstions, obligated for all military ballots going outside continental USA – easy solution.
Even to Iraq, prioirty gets there faster. Start a campaign for a federal mandate on military ballots. via the Postal Express Mail.
That simple, are you listening whinning R’s—HERE is a solution that is totally possible with a stroke of the Bush pen. Executive Order it is called……would be no contest from anybody- left or right. And even the post would hardly dare say a word…..a little dose of true patriotism…..although some competence in running the army and Marines would help too…Rummy has got to go…costing lives, wonder about his Karma on the long term…..
I will call the White House tomorrow. Let’s problem solve together and get out of the blame game—-nutwing stuff, getting tiresome.
Assuming that “new primary” survives a court test…..looks shakey to me.
Dr. James McDermott can die in office if he wishes. He is elected by the most Democratic stronghold in America. Talk of his retirment is been out there for the last few cycles.
Yes, when it comes there will be a big scramble. There is a lot of pent up leftist talent in Seattle. BUT realtively few have onging elected leader stuff and good name familiarity. Money will not buy that seat – known political leader with leftist/progressive credentials and talent for working the district, he/she/other will.
Republicans should never waste their time in the 7th. Inviolate D. district for the foreseeable future. Dan Evans is just to old, Jim.
Bob from Boeing- come back to the issue- the mail system can’t do shit if the counties don’t get the ballots in the mail in a timely manner. Why must you lefties figure a way to blame Bush for everything?
And why do you think I am pushing a Republican in the 7th to take on McDermott? Did you read my post before flatulating? I suggested that a Democrat will be able to take McDermott out, and Dr. Jim is in-district so little he wouldn’t even know it was happening until it was too late…
Finally, Bob- you should come visit Olympia, where too many down here consistently fail to hide their hatred of the members of our Armed Forces… The anti-war liberals have learned to say “Support Our Troops”, but they haven’t learned to DO it. Actually, they have no clue what it is to support the troops…
Finally, Bob- you should come visit Olympia, where too many down here consistently fail to hide their hatred of the members of our Armed Forces… The anti-war liberals have learned to say “Support Our Troops”, but they haven’t learned to DO it. Actually, they have no clue what it is to support the troops…
Comment by Jim King— 12/26/04 @ 4:32 pm
Oh, God I want to hear more about this – doubly so if it’s related to state gov’t. You have my e-mail if you don’t want to reply here…
Jim- YOU are losing track of the issue- simply- getting the ballots to the troops, all the troops, across all of America, and back quickly. Supporting their franchise. For me it is a righous issue, long overdue for better solutions.
My idea is non-partisan — use the existing resoures of mailiing EXPERTS, the Postal System, Agreeded they are Experts? And easily done by executive order by whomever is the sitting president…..my dig is that I don’t really think this administratiion cares a whole lot about the troops. Wave the flag and scew them is a representatnive motto…at least that is MY opinion….total mismanagement of this war from the beginning.
I know Mc Dermotts District like the back of my hand…..having voted there for several decades….no Democrat can take McDermott out, none….name this Mythical political figure. Curious who you think would have even a remote chance??
Jim, you get silly about the anti-war liberals, all that I know think the inability to pick up the phone and get armored vehicles a year ago is a major failure, not of the troops, but of policy and leadership. Spin it anyway you want…..Stinks, stinks, stinks.
Rummy is incompetent……and suggest most of his hand picked staff is less competent, his personality would not allow talened people to outshine him.
I know dozens of liberal who are vets…….and are delighted that folks like Patty Murray worked so hard to keep VA hospitals open…real support for vets, not just window dressing with giant flags from a drunk/stoned draft dodger. (cocaine)…you know who
Josef- if it is related to state government, it is only because most of the most rabid left down here are state employees (and that is a minority of state employees), or faculty or students at The Everegreen State College. There is a leftist element in Olympia that makes Seattle look right-wing…
On September 11, 2001, while people were just starting grieving, still trying to find out if loved ones and friends in the Towers, at the Pentagon, or in the air were alive or not, these people were already gathered on the corners in downtown Olympia with their Blame America signs…
They have made snide remarks and spat upon sailors here for Lakefair, they protest the shipment of medical supplies, clothing, etc. from the Port of Olympia to our soldiers (no weaponry or ammunition is moving through the Port of Olympia)…
And yet they will smilingly say “We support the troops”.
You tell me what the left really believes…
And Josef- this statement from Tony Blair- just recently made:
Whatever people’s feelings or beliefs about the removal of Saddam Hussein and the wisdom of that, there surely is only one side to be on in what is now very clearly a battle between democracy and terror. On the one side you have people who desperately want to make the democratic process work, and want to have the same type of democratic freedoms other parts of the world enjoy, and on the other side people who are killing and intimidating and trying to destroy a better future for Iraq.”
Unfortunately, as we see in the Michael Moore left of this country, THEY think who is right- the fascist Iraqi thug murdering Iraqi election workers, or the Iraqi election worker- is still up for debate…
Bob- keep distracting from the issue… I’m not here to debate the war… I am here wondering why this state doesn’t give a damn about miltary voting…
You want to dump it in George Bush’s lap. Fine. It is obvious you don’t want to answer the question, you just want to toss blame.
The question, however, remains- How does anything else matter if the counties don’t release the ballots in a timely manner? The problems for the military vote this election was caused by the counties not taking care to get the ballots moving to the military in a timely manner. Screw up the start, and then blame the rest of the process? Come on, Bob…
I suspect this is a widespread problem….more national than local…..I think the first and easy solution is the Posal Route, a federal agency, easily bossed around….
One standard for all, everywhere…Washington included. Use priority mail, FREE, to and fro.
I will presue this….outside this blog…..sounds like a great Vet Champion, Patty Murray issie….on some comittee…Senate Armed Services, I believe…..by the way, flatulate is not used in polite society, or any discussion of issues.
And Dan Evans is too old. You missed my point- for those less aware of the 7th Dist- telling the uninformed that no R’ could make a dent in that district, none…..R Challenger- Might make for good voter registration drives from the Dems and thus increase their power in Seattle…..
Comment by Jim King— 12/26/04 @ 5:08 pm
Thanks. I’m a huge Tony Blair fan, thinks the liberation of Iraq was a swell idea and I have absolutely no doubt we are right, the Baathist terrorists are exactly that – terrorists, and I do all I can with my measly financial resources to support the troops (buy magnets for the family cars partially going to charity, say thank you when I see them in uniform, etcetera). I may not be a Republican – but I sure appreciate what the troops do for us – unlike Christine Gregovych who calls this election, after so many of them were disenfranchised – wait for it – “how an election system, as close as this one is, can be done with the highest of quality … This is the biggest display of democracy I have ever seen and I am proud of it and I think it’s an inspiration” (MSNBC & Seattle P-I). If I had my druthers, I wouldn’t be disabled and I’d be out there defending my nation so you and Marummy and Dino and Chris Vance can stand up for our democracy with freedom from fear.
Oh and I hope Gregovych gets her butt handed to her by Rossi. Our hero in Ukraine is handily winning the revote. A good omen, eh?
Jim K. – You might also want to see http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....man26.html – it’s all about Iraqi democracy…
Josef- that’s where I found the Blair quote… :)
No Democrat in his right mind would challenge McDermott… losing would end his political career. And how do you run against him? From the left? Kind of hard. From the right? Not in this district. No… nobody with a chance of winning would challenge McDermott.
As to the troop hating lefties Jim… there are irrational, over the top people on both sides of the spectrum. Liberals don’t hate the troops, and we don’t side with terrorists. I think it unfair to impugn the patriotism or sanity of people who question whether our current policy is the right policy for fighting terrorism. And I think it is fair to say that we created more terrorists in Iraq than we’ve killed or captured… it’s like a 24-hour recruitment film for Al Quaeda.
Being a militarist does not equate with supporting the troops.
That said, there should not be election reform in WA state unless the reform also does something to prevent disenfranchisement of overseas military personnel. The problem is most definitely not the USPS, which happens to be one the fastest, most efficient postal services in the world. But even if we got military ballots in the mail 40 days before the election, some of them are just not going to get back here on time.
Goldy- as you might suspect, there are Republicans who are not happy with the conduct of the war, even if we hold to the Rooseveltian-Wilsonian- Rooseveltian- Reagan tradition of believing that EVERYONE in the world is worthy of democracy. I have no fear of democratic Shi’itism- much better than fascist Sunni/Baathism.
And I would rather see true collaboration among the democracies in tackling the world’s problems, but the record of the overwhelming majority of the Security Council is pathetic, and not one to which I would entrust my nation’s security. The hypopcrisy on global warming and other issues, as well…
I wish the Democrats could return to the traditions they once held…
Comment by Jim King— 12/26/04 @ 10:51 pm
Me, too!
Comment by Josef— 12/25/04 @ 9:12 pm
More evidence for the dossier coming in the next few days – sorry for the delay!
Jim King — thanks for the Blair quote from the Friedman piece. It was indeed excellently said. Whether or not we supported the idea of invading Iraq in the first place, we’re there now and it is our moral obligation to support our troops, support democracy in Iraq, and make things right there. There will be more pain and death before the end, but I think that as a country we have the guts to perservere.
As far as the left-wing nutters at Evergreen who claim to support the troops but spit on sailors, you ask, “tell me what the left really believes…” Well, ‘the left’ doesn’t follow its lunatic fringe any more than ‘the right’ follows the nutcases who want to nuke the whole region. Democrats wish we weren’t there at all, but most everybody acknowledges that we have to win, and that we have to protect our men and women so they can come home safely and victorious. There is no partisan divide on that.
Jim, reading David’s comment makes it clear that I should have elaborated on my position, which I believe is shared by many liberal Democrats. I opposed invading Iraq at this time, for the reasons that were stated. There were no WMDs, and no connection to 9/11. Is the world better off without Hussein, absolutely. But the same could be said about many other dictators.
That said… I would not support pulling the troops out of Iraq at this time. In the words of Colin Powell… “you break it, you own it.” We have a responsibility to fix Iraq as best we can… you know, that “nation building” stuff that Bush ridiculed during the 2000 campaign. If anything, it looks to me like we need more troops in Iraq. And we need to spend billions rebuilding their infrastructure… billions I’d rather spend at home, but it’s too late for that now.
How’s that for fitting the military-hating lefty stereotype?
Goldy- I never put you- or most of the folks on this blog- in that military-hating category- but there are a lot of Democrats who are.
And not every Democrat opposed the war- many still say we did the right thing…
And as for investing in Iraq- we, and the world, is better for our investments in the world, from the Marshal Plan onwards. A democratic Iraq- a prosperous Iraq- will do wonders for us all…
And I tend to think we will see success in Iraq before we see success in Serbia…
Re McDermott, is that why the Republicans ran that DING-A-LING against him in the November election? I thought Republicans enjoyed a challenge, and if Rossi is sooooo good wouldn’t he be the one to take it on?
And Jim King, “I wish the Democrats could return to the traditions they once held…” Just what do you perceive those traditions are? Also: “Finally, Bob- you should come visit Olympia, where too many down here consistently fail to hide their hatred of the members of our Armed Forces… The anti-war liberals have learned to say “Support Our Troops”, but they haven’t learned to DO it. Actually, they have no clue what it is to support the troops…” Do you mean that we need to support the troops like the Republican administration does: not enough water, food, or bullet proof vests? Not enough armored vehicles, just how LONG has this war been going on? And where is the first 87 billion, and Bush is going to ask for 80 billion more! How about the returning vets that are on LONG lists for VA hospitals, or are homeless because their employer didn’t hold their jobs open? And: “On September 11, 2001, while people were just starting grieving, still trying to find out if loved ones and friends in the Towers, at the Pentagon, or in the air were alive or not, these people were already gathered on the corners in downtown Olympia with their Blame America signs…” Wake up Jim, America was to blame, where was NORAD?
“And DCF- Snail Mail can’t do shit if WE don’t get the ballots to Snail Mail in a timely manner- which is what happened here. And Washington does not require a postmark- only a signature and a date by the overseas military voter (the date being election day or earlier).”
Jim, you didn’t read my post did you? I said to have a DOD ballot form, for voting, that every military member could get at headquarters. Then the military member would check their county’s local web site for the names of those running for office, fill the names they’re voting for in, and mail the DOD ballot form back to their county auditor! Gee, I don’t know why I post here when people don’t know how to read!
As for Cantwell, she didn’t do much planning for her future did she????? Anyone spending as much of their own money as she did on her campaign should consider a worse case scenario before they sign the check. I still say that she didn’t do what she said she would do, and in the end was beholding to contributors for her election to the Senate!