Momentum is slowly building behind a story I first broke back in August about mega-church preacher (and close McGavick advisor) Pastor Joe Fuiten, and his cynical efforts to steal the homes out from under a community of retired ministers, missionaries and church workers at the Cedar Springs Bible Camp. The plucky Lake Stevens Journal has continued to cover the controversy despite thinly veiled legal threats from the Fuiten camp, and last month KIRO-TV’s Deborah Horne aired a nice segment on the residents’ predicament.
But recently I had begun to despair that the residents would get the justice they deserve.
The Bible Camp sits on 150 acres of prime property near Lake Stevens, and Fuiten recently took control of its board by assuming $150,000 of debt, promising to run the camp without major changes. This was an absolute steal for Fuiten, who recently hocked just a small parcel of the property to back a $1.12 million loan. But avarice knows no bounds, and Fuiten has methodically set out to evict the Camp’s small residential community from homes they built on plots they have leased from the camp for the past forty years. Unable to move these permanent structures, and with Fuiten being the only possible buyer, their houses are now worthless.
So while media interest in the story has slowly built (I know of at least two journalists at major newspapers who are pursuing coverage,) I had begun to worry that Fuiten would successfully run out the clock. As pastor of the largest mega-church in the state, and perhaps the most powerful clergyman in WA Republican Party politics, Fuiten has deep pockets and aggressive attorneys. Fuiten’s strategy was to drag the dispute out as long as possible, bleeding the residents dry — a strategy that preyed on the residents own faith, for they entered negotiations expecting to be treated in a Christian manner by a pastor from their own denomination, the Assembly of God.
Fuiten’s strategy was also aided by the passivity of the residents’ own attorney, who has allowed the proceedings to drag on for months while billing them tens of thousands of dollars, and strongly urging them from going public with their complaints.
Well… no longer.
I was relieved to get a call from resident James West yesterday telling me that attorney Knoll Lowney had agreed to take on their case. In Lowney, Fuiten and his attorneys have drawn a fierce opponent who is more than willing to play the kind of legal hardball Fuiten has been flinging at the residents for months. Lowney also has well-earned reputation for effectively engaging the media in defense of his clients… which is really what Fuiten and his people have feared all along. They don’t mind stealing houses from a community of retired ministers, missionaries and church workers. They just don’t want anybody to know about it.
If you want to know more, tune into “The David Goldstein Show” this Sunday night at 8PM on Newsradio 710-KIRO. I’ll have Bible Camp resident James West on to talk about the dispute and take your questions.
Yeah, sure. But isn’t the good pastor ‘building wealth’, thus optimizing the allocation of scarce resources to the betterment of all mankind through the blessed mechanism of the free market as set forth explicitly in the Bible? After all….god commands “do not covet”.
What more justification does a wingnut need?
so what else is new? Holy rollers, snake oil salesmen, the 700 club, oral roberts, janes & tammy baker and neocons/wingnuts have made swindling honest people their lifes ambition.
Yeah no moonbat has ever swindled anyone……..
Well what do those folks expect, after 40 years, things change. I hope the best for these folks, but really, the preacher acts like simms, you know the KING of CAO.
Reap what you sow….. Vote Yes I-933.
The good reverend has a curious take on Matthew 25, where is recorded Christ’s admonition to house the homeless. Fuiten apparently reads that as permitting evicting the elderly and throwing them to the streets. He proves the old adage: the Religious Right is neither.
I get my castles the old-fashioned way. I conquer them.
Speaking of the bible and living those values, what about the rafting trip that Rep. Jim Kolbe (R-AZ) took with two Congressional pages in 1996?
Oh, wasn’t he a former member of the House Page Board? Jeez, he might as well have stuck a big “I’m a gay boy chaser” sign on his back. If he had, maybe THEN the House leadership would do something to protect the pages.
Air America files for bankruptcy.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/a.....rica1.html
Since nobody wants to listen to the kooky message of Air America, the ONLY thing you guys can do is resort to your usual nazi tactics and shut down opposing views. So the “fairness doctrine” will now be front and center.
Must suck to be wrong all the time.
“Must suck to be wrong all the time.”
Commentby Mark The Redneck KENNEDY— 10/13/06@ 11:47 am
Mark,
You are an authority on the topic. Share with us your feelings of inadequacy. You’ll feel better if you can talk about your shortcomings.
Maybe you should read the article a bit better before spouting off wrong info. Instead of (as you say “stealing the property out from under retired ministers etc”…the property is supposed to be designed for retired ministers et al.
As stated in the Lake Steven Journal: “West called the proposal a step backward from previous offers, citing the lack of a renewal option, no reasonable cap on lease raises, and an “unacceptable” narrowing of resident qualifications requiring prospective tenants to be retired ministers and missionaries as key items. ”
Looks to me that the folks living there right now are not the retired ministers but that new tenants should be part of that group. Makes perfect sense to me for a church property. And if you remember the Kiro report, the issue is that the rates are going up (what doesn’t go up in Seattle and WA state). So people complain about paying more. Now one can argue about the increases, but at least you should for once report the whole story and not spin it.
re 11: FOX ran in the red for 15 years before turning a profit. They had conservative backers with deep pockets. People don’t watch FOX because of the news. It’s because of their excellent and ahead of the times programming. FOX programs are the best advertisement there is for intelligent liberalism.
And FOX news? Well you have to have something for the 70+ generation.
Must really fry the righties to see that Air America is on the air today and broadcasting just the same as Delta Airlines is flying. Bankruptcy is simply a business model most American corporations are using to improve their financial position. And thanks the GOP Congress, it’s very easy for a business to do and still thirve.
At least eight of the 19 hijackers who attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were actually able to register to vote in either Virginia or Florida while they made their deadly preparations for 9/11. All registered Democrat. [……..Gee, what a fucking surprise!!!!!]
Bill Clinton on the death tax elimination: “They may think that I should be able to giv Chelsea every nickel, but I don’t.”
Well hey, don’t let US get in your way. you don’t have to give her ANYTHING, Bill. You can will all of it to the the federal government! Easy as pie. Does he not see the flaws in his argument? WHERE is the economic freedom?? Let people be PRO-choice about what they do with their own money after they expire. Every american RIGHT NOW AND ALWAYScan choose to leave it all to the government when they die. ALL OF IT. Not a penny to the kids. This is the flaw in his thinking.
Does anyone besides me realize that bankruptcy does not = going out of business? Reorganization of debt is a common practice.
Maybe Air America will become a paying proposition, maybe not. My opinion is that we should leapfrog ahead of the Right, not try to match them in the areas where they are becoming dinosaurs.
So he White House stopped returning Mark Foley’s calls two years ago. Did they know something? What was it? Did the White House cover up along with Hastert and Co.?
Umm, sure they did.
re 16: And at least three of them are still alive. Any information on that in Rightyworld?
Turns out that so far no one has been able to find any nuclear traces from NK’s “test.” But we should all stay afraid, right ?
MTR
Uh, no, I for one don’t care AAR filed for bankruptcy. They need to figure out how to make radio that people want to listen to. It may take a while.
I tried listening to AAR for a while and frankly found it annoying. I don’t suffer from an inferiority complex and need to be told over and over again that what I think is right. I’d much rather read/listen to stuff that says I am wrong, and then work on refuting it. Or not.
There is a fine line between being principled and just stupid and pig-headed. I try to stay on the right (or left) side of that line.
Daddy Love @ 21:
Odds are, based on the yield of the explosion (<1Kt), it was not a nuclear blast at all. The Hiroshima bomb was just enough U-235 to go supercritical, and used the most dirt-simple detonation mechanism possible, and that produced a 15Kt yield.
However, it is prudent to be careful. You are usually safer saying “maybe they don’t have a nuclear weapon, but we should consider that they might” rather than saying “well, they said they have a nuclear weapon, but we’ll assume they don’t.”
re 17: The person that earned the money paid taxes on it. There is no logical reason that the inheritor should not get taxed for the FREE money he’s getting.
Look at it this way: One guy earns $100,000 every year for ten years and he’s taxed every year. He’s WORKING for the money and paying his taxes. Let’s say some schmo — let’s call the schmo, say, Bill Kristol — inherits $1,000,000 and a soggy ice cream cone. But HE pays no tax on it.
23 jsa
Sure thing. And we know they produced plutonium prior to 1994’s successful Agreed Framework; the IAEA saw it as it went under seal and inspection.
My point is that to distort our entire nation’s military posture or to fan the flames of fear in the American citizenry, all about a nation so poor they appear black on a nighttime satellite picture who can’t yet even build a working long range missile or control their short-range ones, is just more idiocy.
I think the reason this administration has NO diplomatic gains with NK is because they don’t WANT successes. They want every enemy of ours to appear to be as crazy and strong as possible just so they can manipulate our fear for electoral gain. Our safety is not their concern at all.
And THAT’S why we have to vote OUT the rubber stamps and vote IN the Accountability Crew!
Let people be PRO-choice about what they do with their own money after they expire
We don’t give people the option not to pay taxes when they are alive. Why is being dead any different?
Really, the “death tax” arguments are stupid. It’s a reasonably pain-free way to collect revenue AND promote the idea that America doesn’t have a class system with massive amounts of inherited wealth. And after seeing the Upper Class Twit Of The Year who we elected President (with O Levels in Jet Fighters!), we probably need to INCREASE estate taxes.
Dutch gives good advice, but he is misinformed about some of the issues himself.
The money isn’t the issue.
The raise in rate isn’t the issue.
Beating that horse over and over is nothing more than a pointless attempt to deflect away from the real issue.
The issue, plain and simple, is that the changes they want to make in the lease would unreasonably devalue their homes.
1) who could you sell to that would buy it if there is no renewal clause in the lease?
2) who would buy it without a reasonable cap on future increases?
3) how many 55+ retired, licensed ministers do you think has enough money in the bank to cash out their investments? (you can’t get a bank loan on any of the homes because they are on leased land)
Each one has invested their retirement in a home. They have a reasonable expectation to get their investment back. That was the way it was when they bought in, and has been that way for over 40 years.
Now, with the current lease proposal, signing means giving away their home. It means that at the end of the lease, they have to leave. No compensation, no rights, nothing left to pass on to their children.
An early proposal of a lease said that if a tenant dies, and the heirs are not ‘qualified’, they would have to find a suitable buyer within 90 days or forfeit the home.
Here is the kicker… the board has the right to accept or deny any applicant!
Their homes would revert to ownership by the camp. WITHOUT COMPENSATION! That is theft, plain and simple.
I think that Fuiten has an axe to grind, or he would simply honor the long-standing lease.
Fuiten may preach charity, but he doesn’t know charity, or he would simply return kindness by granting them the same terms of sale as he just received (multi-million dollar property for less than $200k?). Sell them that portion of the property for a reasonable amount, and move on to more important matters.
Fuiten hasn’t got a conscience, or he simply buy them out at a fair market value instead of trying to legislate a ‘deal’ that gives him the upper hand.
There was a day when “Man of God” meant something. It is no wonder the world turns its nose at religion. With examples like this, the devil can go on holiday.
I am glad Mr. Lowney is taking the case. Was just wondering what was going on with this. As far as the “everything goes up in Wa” argument; many of the retired ministers, missionaries and church workers are on small fixed incomes.
The leases created back when the Assembly of God was a Christian church were designed so the retired would be able to afford housing as well as food and clothing. This was in understanding that people should be treated with dignity.
Now that the Assembly of God has started worshipping money the leases they offer are much different.
Reality check,
You are confusing the US government, the constitution and other rights and freedoms that you thought you had with a governing body straight out of the soviet union from decades past.
Government’s main agenda these days is to dictate everything that you do, everything that you say and everything that you own. They will tell you what the fuck to eat, and furthermore they will outlaw anything they deem unhealthy for you to eat.
They will tell you what the fuck you can do with your property and when you can water you plants and what noxious weeds you can pull and when to pulll them. They will tell you how to drive your fucking car and furthermore what you can do and must do while driving your car.
The only thing the government won’t do is tell you who to fuck and how to fuck them – there anything goes. The kinkier – the better, unless you are a male politician – then they will crucify you, but if you are a female politician, feel free to do whoever and however you please. Female school teachers get that free pass too!
27
The government isn’t they. It’s we.
Re: gun control.
Republicans let the assault weapons ban expire. Mike! McGavick opposes the ban. But…
I’d better go get me one, too. It’s going to be open season on Republicans after November 7.
It’s supposed to be, but these days, it’s who you know, who ya blow, and who your senator/congressman knows and blows!
Loocy @ 11 – Tell me… what the fuck is “intelligent liberalism”?
LMAO…
“I’d better go get me one, too. It’s going to be open season on Republicans after November 7. ”
Is that because you think they will win or lose?
Let me know, so I can defend myself.
re 30: The kind that knows that Stephen Colbert is not really a conservative.
Daddy Love @ 21:
I don’t like second-guessing the goals of the leadership past the obvious of winning elections. You can read Chomsky and his guesses, but I don’t like Chomsky.
The fact that their results are awful speaks for itself. Whether they screw up big things to sow chaos and thereby strengthen the need for a strong central state or whether they screw up big things because they’re just not all that bright is irrelevant. Personally, I think figuring that they’re uber-intelligent and are sowing chaos as part of a greater game is giving them a lot more credit than they deserve.
I tried listening to AAR for a while and frankly found it annoying. I don’t suffer from an inferiority complex and need to be told over and over again that what I think is right. I’d much rather read/listen to stuff that says I am wrong, and then work on refuting it. Or not. There is a fine line between being principled and just stupid and pig-headed. I try to stay on the right (or left) side of that line. Commentby jsa on commercial drive— 10/13/06@ 1:11 pm
Nicely put JSA. I listen to KIRO,and that’s how I knew Mike Webb SUCKED; venturi orifice in reverse! But JSA, have you noticed when the moonbats want to make their point, they seldom use the MSM (unlike me and others on the right), they use moonbattic librul crapola sites because they need to have their empty minds filled after flushing the shit in the toilet at least once a day.
And THAT’S why we have to vote OUT the rubber stamps and vote IN the Accountability Crew! Commentby Daddy Love— 10/13/06@ 1:34 pm
A real kool-aid drinker MR Appeaser Daddy Love is. If Goldie allowed animated pictures to be posted it would be a caricature of a moonbat swinging a whiteflag rag on a stick!
Commentby Mike Webb Sucks— 10/13/06@ 5:22 pm
“But JSA, have you noticed when the moonbats want to make their point, they seldom use the MSM (unlike me and others on the right), they use moonbattic librul crapola sites because they need to have their empty minds filled after flushing the shit in the toilet at least once a day.”
Oh, I don’t think so. I know that I tend to use the Washington Post, the Tacoma News Tribune and have even used Faux News. Others tend to use many of the same sites, along with the Seattle Times, PI and Reuters.
Or were those the “moonbattic librul crapola sites” you were talking about?
I have, however, caught Americafirst using the Christian Phalangist Party of America website as a reference. Personally, I think that counts as a “crapola site“.
MWS
Have you completed your KKK induction rites yet? I know it must be stressful to await word of whether your worthy of the sheeted ones.
Eph at 24: None of the points you mention are part of my post. All this might or might not be valid, but wasn’t mentioned by me. Goldstein spun the fact that retired ministers etc were kicked out while the facts are that the space is allocated for retired ministers. Yeah, it’s so much more “evil” if a church kicks out retired ministers and church workers than trying to provide space for them.
All the points you put up as a rebuttal are interesting points and should be considered from a “what is the right thing to do” point of view. But we can do withou the stupid spin Goldstein put up.
So there
A nurse has spoken of her terror after she was attacked by a giant pig which charged the horse she was riding and then savaged her after she was thrown to the ground. Suffering from broken ribs from the fall, Carolyn Robinson feared for her life as the enraged pig hurtled at her.
Question: Was the pig in a pantsuit?
MWS
Have you completed your KKK induction rites yet?
Commentby proud leftist [……..Perhaps Senator Robert “KKK” byrd, DEMOCRAT, WV might be a source here!]
jch @ 41
Question: Which one was it Rush or Karl?
Sorry to diagree, Dutch, but your facts are almost right on.
The land wasn’t allocated for retired ministers, alone.
The lease that stood for 40 years allocated the use any “member of the Assembly of God or those who would agree to the tenets of faith as stated by Cedar Springs Camp”.
Should it be for ministers only? maybe. But not without fairly compensating those who bought in under a different understanding.
30 MTR
It’s something you have never recognized when you saw it.
35 MWS
I’ve asked before. Maybe you can help us out by letting us know how and why the Bush administration has been brilliant in whatever the fuck they have done regarding North Korea since January 2001. Events, consequences, details.
This is more than “Things change”.
1. The original lease was Tenant Renewed. There is now no renewal guaranteed. Without a renewal, the houses are worthless. Cedar Park’s attitude so far has been “Don’t like it? Move your house or leave it behind”. They know that none of these people can afford to move the house; and even if they could afford it, the bridge leading into the camp is not strong enough to allow it.
So “move it or lose it” means “lose it”… what a way to treat your fellow man, much less your fellow Christian, much less your fellow minister, missionary and church worker.
2. If the tenants sign the current lease, they will be hostages of the camp for the next three years, as no-one will buy a home without a renewable lease. In three years, the camp can then opt to give them 30 days notice and boot them off the property if they can’t move their house within the 30 days.
3. The charge that the leases need to be raised to “cover costs” is bogus. The leases cover more than the taxes owed on the parcel they effect, and in fact have been enough to cover ALL the taxes on the WHOLE parcel and then some. The fact is that Cedar Park Assembly group is expecting the leases to cover camp expenses, even those not having anything to do with the leases. And they are willing to bankrupt people on fixed incomes to do it.
4. The Cedar Park group promised that they would abide by the lease that had been negotiated – but not signed by the camp – prior to their takeover. They are not.
5. The eviction of two families is completely illegal. You cannot retaliate against someone for filing for protection under the law. The threat in that letter is that if the other 8 families do not sign the lease, they will be evicted just like these two families. The thing is, if they sign the lease, they can be evicted in three years at camp option, and they will have signed away any basis for a lawsuit to get the value of their property paid to them.
6. The camps ASSESSED value of property is just over 4 million dollars, for which the Cedar Park group paid next to nothing. The camp was built by the donated labor, donated land, donated materials, volunteer time, of many of these residents that the camp is now oppressing. If you read the lease, even with their leases being raised to “market value”, they will STILL be required to donate time to the camp as “volunteers”. It’s part of the proposed lease. So the camp wants “Market Value” AND the volunteer time that was supposed to be the offset for the lower leases to begin with. It’s called “double dipping”, or downright Greed.
7. To top it off, the camp was owned free and clear. They were having MINOR financial difficulties, which could have been solved with top-notch customer service and aggressive marketing. The camp was not “insolvent” by any stretch of the imagination, not with $4million in free and clear assets.
The Cedar Park groups first move was to mortgage part of the land for $1,125,000, $200,000 of which is due next June.
Coincidentally (?) they won’t extend the lease past three years, at which point a school is being built about a mile from the camp. At the same time, a shopping center is going in about 1/4 mile from the camp. Water and Sewer will be available to the property in time for the school. Guess what this will do to property values?
Is it just a “coinkeedink” that Cedar Park doesn’t guarantee anything past three years? That they only “hope” they can extend a renewable lease to these folks then? Why 3 years? Why not 5, 10, or 20?
Further, why does the lease stipulate that if they go out of business OR LOSE THEIR TAX EXEMPT status (which can be done any number of ways, including some deliberate ones) that the tenants are evicted in 30 days? What plans do they have for this property that will put the camp out of business or have it lose it’s tax exempt status?
And why not protect the tenants by saying that if anything beyond the tenants control happens to the property that they will be compensated at fair market value? Why risk public humiliation, investigations, lawsuits… over $790,000 in houses when you have access to $4million in assets that were essentially FREE to you?
Is it Greed? Is Cedar Park Assembly so far in debt, so hard up for cash that it needs to screw the very people whose hard work generated those millions in assets out of $790,000? Do the math. That means these houses average out to $79,000 each. How much do you suppose the house for Waggoner or Fuiten or any other board member comes out to?
These are not mansions. They are basic housing for people who have worked hard for the Assembly of G-d all their lives.
Where do you suppose the NW District Council has been while these people are getting screwed over by the Mafia tactics of Cedar Park? Why haven’t they gone to bat for the “widow and the fatherless” like the bible instructs them to?
Is is just “coinkeedink” again that Cedar Park is the biggest AOG in the state? That they bring lots of money into the coffers?
Or is it just an ethical failure on the part of “spiritual leaders” to stand up for what’s right?
And if they fail at this, who are the “sprititual leaders” of the state?
I’ve been following this story, all the while cringing as I read it. There have been so many half truths, and worse, written and eagerly eaten up by those who love to see the name of Christ drug through the mud. So many of those involved on both sides are great people. Joe Fuiten is a person of exceptional character. I’ve known him personally for over 30 years. He is not interested in evicting good people or taking more rent money than is absolutely necessary to cover the expenses they incur. He only became involved with the camp to help bail them out and build a successful camp to serve even more in the future. Making it work financially is part of that project. All of these fine people just need time and negotiations to work out the details. The only reason the media is involved is to mock these people because they all identify themselves as Christians. It is an election year and they are SEARCHING for some dirt on Christians in politics. In the absence of real scandal they are making stuff up. The residents of Cedar Springs have been tricked and used as pawns by the media. They just don’t know it yet. If they would just stay the course with their negotiations it would all work out. But these newspeople don’t actually want this worked out. They are just enjoying the sight of Christians having an honest disagreement. One of Joe Fuiten’s strengths is negotiating fairly. If anyone can bring an equitable resolution it will be him. I pray that both sides are given the space to accomplish this soon.
Dear Bothell Family:
The CHRISTIANS at the camp who are under siege do not have any interest at all in dragging Christ through the mud.
The facts are this:
The leases were $150 per month. As far as I know, there are 14 independently owned houses. The camp owns 6.
The taxes on the property are $13,600 +/- per year for a SIX acre parcel that includes camp buildings. The tenants already pay for the WELL WATER they receive from the camp. They have septic tanks, so there is no sewer. The camp DOES pay for the garbage. The Tenants pay for the maintenance of the road that goes through the 5 acre parcel they sit on.
Let’s do some math, shall we?
$150 per month x 12 months = $1800 per year PER FAMILY. There are 14 families (plus the housing that the camp owns, some of which they lease out and some of which they have for staff housing).
$1800 per family x 14 = $25,200 per year in land leases alone.
The taxes – including the 1 acre of camp property and camp buildings – is $13,600 or so.
Show me where the tenants are not paying their way.
Waggoner LIED and said that the camp pays for water, sewer and garbage. The Tenants pay the camp EXTRA for water, they pump their own septics and yes, the camp does pay for garbage. Have trouble seeing where the garbage bill would come to $10,000 a year or more.
The fact is, the tenanats HAVE BEEN A MONEY MAKER for the camp for a number of years.
They should not be responsible for the taxes for the ENTIRE camp, or for the homes that the camp owns, or for the buildings the camp owns.
Mr. Fuiten promised these people PERSONALLY that he would honor the lease that they had spent three years hammering out with the former board. HE LIED. His first move was to make the lease non-renewing, which essentially holds these people hostage. They have already been hostages of the camp for four years. They cannot sell their property because no-one will buy it without a land lease. Fuiten’s group has taken the tack – move it or lose it.
And another LIE – they say they are not evicting anyone. But they are. Two families have been told to be out by November 1… and there has been no revocation of that letter.
You might want to get a copy of that letter, in which Mr. Fuiten’s attorney ILLEGALLY evicts these two families for filing for protection under the law. The letter also threatens THE REST WITH EVICTION if they don’t sign a lease that signs away their legal rights! Get a copy of the letter at http://www.lakestevensjournal.com. Look under the blog (beginning of Oct I think). They have PDF files for you to download of these PUBLIC RECORDS.
Does any of the above sound ethical, moral, or right to you?
Read the lease attached to that letter and show me ONE SINGLE LINE that protects the tenants. And the most recent lease (which I haven’t seen but have heard of) is even more outrageous by getting into Toxic waste cleanup, and re-tightening the residents who will be allowed to live there.
What is amazing is that if Mr. Fuiten has ANY ethics, why he hires an attorney that uses mafia tactics to threaten people, sends his father around to try to get old widows to sign away their legal rights for one year for a “special deal”, (at which point they would be subject to 30 day eviction if he doesn’t opt to renew their lease)… I gotta ask you… are 30 day evictions even reasonable for people who have no place to go? Why is Mr. Fuiten’s group hung up on 30 day evictions… if the camp goes out of business… if the camp loses it’s Tax exempt status… if the camp “cannot” see it’s way clear to renew the leases. Would Mr. Fuiten or Mr. Waggoner or any other board member wish these restrictions if it was THEIR property? Would they want to sign away their 30-40 years history of TENANT renewed leases?
What happpened to the “Do unto others” that Christians are supposed to practice?
Show me ONE THING that has been done by this group that they would want done to them.