On my first visit to Seattle back in 1989, my future ex-wife took me on a tour of her beloved hometown, which of course included the downtown waterfront. Walking hand-in-hand through the shadows of the clamorous and crumbling Alaska Way Viaduct, I subtly remarked on how the structure dominated the sites and sounds of an otherwise charming tourist trap:
“I can’t believe they built a fucking freeway through the waterfront!” I gently screamed in her ear… to which she quizzically replied: “What?!”
Of course, I understand the historical circumstances that led to this gashing, open wound through a neighborhood that would otherwise enjoy some of the highest property values in the state. And I certainly share the pragmatic, financial concerns of those who oppose a more expensive tunnel replacement.
But really… can anybody honestly tell me that rebuilding this monstrosity is the preferred alternative, especially after we now learn that a replacement Viaduct would have to be 50 percent wider than the existing structure, with columns twice as thick, just to meet current seismic and traffic safety standards?
Let’s put this in perspective. Imagine the Viaduct had never been built, and SR 99 currently passed through the waterfront at grade, traffic lights and all, like any other street. (You know… the way it currently runs through much of Seattle.)
Now suppose we wanted to alleviate local traffic snarls by allowing 99’s thru-traffic to bypass Alaska Way. Do you believe for a moment that any politician in their right mind would propose plunking down a massive, double-decker, view-destroying, elevated freeway, essentially cutting off the waterfront from the rest of the downtown? Do you believe a single editorial board would come out in support of such an outrageously ugly, noisy and expensive transportation folly? Do you really think our state Legislature would have provided $2 billion of taxpayer’s money towards such a controversial proposal?
Of course not! Financial priorities, aesthetics, and common sense simply would not allow it.
A lot has changed since the Viaduct was constructed over 50 years ago, and modern, world-class cities no longer wall off their waterfronts with massive freeway projects; indeed, any urban planner who proposed such a project would be laughed out of the profession. Yet it’s the rebuild boosters who seem to be laughing as if their opponents are out of touch with reality: money is tight they patronizingly explain to us… we simply cannot afford a tunnel.
Right.
Over the last decade taxpayers have spent a billion dollars building and refurbishing stadia and arenas to the benefit of billionaire sports team owners, and maybe, just maybe, the bonds on the now demolished Kingdome will finally be paid off before the next round of extortion begins. Yet we’re told we can’t afford the extra billion dollars for the tunnel alternative, despite its estimated life-span of at least 100 hundred years… twice that of an elevated viaduct.
I find that hard to believe. And besides, it shouldn’t be up to state legislators to make that decision. The state has ponied up it’s $2 billion bucks, and if local voters want to tax themselves to turn our waterfront into a world class destination, well then, that’s up to us. Now that the Monorail has been permanently derailed, let’s give voters the opportunity to use the local MVET to help finance the tunnel and other road improvements. And why not start talking about a special taxing district — much like the one financing South Lake Union development — so that those property owners who stand to reap the biggest rewards from the Viaduct’s removal, also pay a higher percentage of the cost?
And if we still can’t find the money to pay for a tunnel, well… we can’t do what we can’t do. But that still doesn’t make a replacement viaduct the preferred alternative.
It’s time for our state and local civic and political leaders to get their heads out of the 1950’s, and start imagining the city with a fresh perspective. It’s time to start giving serious attention to a third replacement option, one which I would argue is far preferable to replacing the existing Viaduct with a new, bulked-up model: the waterfront boulevard.
That’s exactly what San Francisco did after the double-decker, Embarcadero Freeway collapsed during the 1989 Loma Prieta quake… a change that revitalized the waterfront. And citizens liked the results so much that they just opened a new 6-lane boulevard to replace a portion of the Central Freeway, right through the heart of the downtown.
I believe that much of the legislative opposition to the tunnel stems both from institutional timidity, and urban Democrats’ justified fear that their opponents will seize on the tunnel as a symbol of out-of-control, profligate spending on the part of the party in charge.
But I also think that opposition stems from a lack of imagination. The generation in power now grew up with a loud, ugly, double-decker freeway cutting through an otherwise spectacular waterfront, and they simply cannot envision the city without it.
Well not me. I came to this city as an outsider, and I’m here to tell you that the Viaduct sucks. And you know what…? Rebuilding it 50 percent wider can only make it suck at least 50 percent more.
Yes it sucks but if Seattle wants a boutique solution to their transportation woes let them pay for it. The state shouldn’t pay a diem more that what they would spend to replace what’s there.
I agree… It would seem to be cheaper to let the cars use the at-grade surface and let pedestrians use a tunnel (or elevated bridge) to get across the street. Why push the cars underground or up on a road on stilts?
Drool… nobody’s asking them to. The state earmarked $2 billion, and that’s all we’re getting, regardless of what we build. This isn’t enough to pay for a new viaduct either, so there was always going to be a local component to the financing. The question now is how much are local taxpayers willing to put in.
That’s probably what’s going to happen, drool, but I don’t agree with you. I think that the transportation needs of the state’s economic engine are everyone’s concern. However, politics being what they are, I am sure that this area will gladly shoulder its burden. Maybe in return we will persuade the state to stop shipping the excess transportation dollars raised in this propserous and hard-working portion of the state off to butthole counties east of the mountains.
I appluad your ex-wife in her excellent choice of kicking your pathetic ass to the curb.
Kind of explains the attention you spend bitterly hacking away at this blog.
Disgruntled –
One reason to push the thru traffic up or down is the same reason that the AWV exists now: to keep thru traffic out of the way of local teraffic and pedestrians. Undergrounding it leaves even more room for same.
Awwww, looks like momus has blog envy.
Goldy – you are on target. I agree completely. And I am a native son.
You are right – the lesser Seattle movement was not just a spoof. It still exists in a large measure and it is backward, and NIMBY and does not propose bold solutions for the new age Seattle.
I sent the tax district idea to council members and county as well……. an all couty tax district like a set on enlarging rings, closest to waterfront and expanding outward. More taxes close in, chepest rate in the out most rings. Giant LID, local improvement district, often used for sidewalks, water and sewer lines.
Sattle has a real numerical bonanza going. All that many billions of new construction, non public, is creating billions of new tax base. Some of the new condo buildings will create 200 million in just one project. That means new tax resources of great magnitude. Also the sales tax generated in a new people and services waterfront will be millions more.
Generations will bless the tunnel idea.
I bet there were a lot of naysayers when NY City laid out plans for central park. We have the same weird moment.
Go Tunnel.
Goldy – take thisn on. Form the Tunnel support coalition. Then get on the city council You are sorely needed. Bunch of nice sheeple there. Their skill seems to be not making decisions.
the embarcadero was always a highway to nowhere, so the change didn’t mean much for the city’s traffic. poor comparison. converting 99 to a waterfront boulevard will cause much of the N-S traffic to move to I5; hardly an ideal situation.
i’m not in favor of building a new viaduct, but let’s stop giving the hippies clamoring eliminating all freeways another voice of support. a tunnel isn’t a new freeway, it’s fixing the old one.
momus
Screw you – go rent some right wing porno – and get off this blog with your sily trash. The IS a thread for a REAL discussion.
Tired of the silly weak minded ego crap from the trolls.
Reasonable people (and I’m sure there are some out there in HA land) disagree on this. To my mind a tunnel hark to Boston’s Big Dig – which, as far as I know, still leaks. I like occasionally driving on the viaduct, and as a nearly daily cycle-commuter along that corridor I shudder at the thought of a glorified boulevard along the route.
This is distinct from whether I think the people of the state should chip in if a tunnel proves to be the way to go, of course they should. Our roads should be at least as glorious as the (“boutique”) freeway interchanges we paid for in the Tri-Cities and in Redmond, and Spokane…
But I don’t really want a tunnel; I don’t really want all that prime real estate falling into the hands of the Cornerstone Group and the other capitalist developers who have Nickels in their pocket (pun intended).
Hell, half my opposition to the tunnel stems from being told I’m not visionary enough. Leave us be with our provincial viduct. Besides, if the ex-wife had been giving you the REAL tour, the first leg would have been northbound drive along the viaduct.
And you can tell her I said so.
What kills me about this “discussion” (put in quotes because most legislators are just grand-standing, not really listening to anything that’s being said on either side) is that we are ignoring half the problem. The problem is not just that the viaduct is ugly and seismically unsafe, and we don’t have a choice as to whether or not to do Seattle’s own Big Dig. Folks, the seawall that protects downtown, the Port of Seattle, and Belltown from reverting to an intertidal mud flat is CRUMBLING. The seawall has to be DUG UP and replaced no matter WHAT we do with the viaduct.
Now, doesn’t it just make sense to do, I dunno, maybe BOTH at the same time? Cut and cover – lid over the excavation for the seawall/tunnel and build a mixed-use pedestrian/traffic boulevard atop the lid? That is the only option that actually adds traffic capacity.
People are talking as if digging up the waterfront were optional. It is not.
“can anybody honestly tell me that rebuilding this monstrosity is the preferred alternative”
Yes, because (a) we need the arterial (it carries 1/3 of our commuter traffic), (b) we can’t afford a tunnel, and (c) I don’t own downtown property, so I don’t give a damn about downtown views, and I’m neither able nor willing to pay higher taxes to enhance the property values of downtown property owners.
If they want better views and higher property values, let THEM fork over the extra money needed for a tunnel option. I’m tired of civic leaders coming to me with their hand out. I get zero benefit from the taxes they ask me to pay. And I’m tapped out!
“Over the last decade taxpayers have spent a billion dollars building and refurbishing stadia and arenas …. Yet we’re told we can’t afford the extra billion dollars for the tunnel alternative …. I find that hard to believe.”
So Goldy — your logic, as I understand it, is that because we’ve had a billion dollars extorted from us for sports arenas, it follows that we can afford to have another billion dollars extorted from us for a tunnel?
See what happens, the simple, cheap solutions are often the ones we ignore.
Tear it down, and leave it two lanes in each direction…
Or maybe we should waste BILLIONS more. How about paying $5k a year in car tabs on your ’89 Buick.
goldy…i have to agree with you on this one. when i first visited seattle with my husband i too couldn’t believe that they had built that hideous viaduct. that was way back in 1978. but then, i wasn’t impressed with seattle at all…i suppose because i was spoiled by san francisco….and those weren’t exactly good years for seattle or the state of washington anyway.
the tunnel option seems to be the best looks-wise…but would you really want to be in it in an earthquake? [ i was in the loma prieta quake and on the road that collapsed just ten minutes before the quake hit]
i still think that seattle made a huge mistake by not expanding the monorail….it would have added alot of interest to a very uninteresting city.
“It’s time to start giving serious attention to a third replacement option, one which I would argue is far preferable to replacing the existing Viaduct with a new, bulked-up model: the waterfront boulevard.”
Goldy, maybe you haven’t lived in Seattle long enough yet, because you just don’t get it.
Seattle is hemmed by water on west and east. Consequently, Seattle is a strip city running north-south, with employment concentrated in the city center and residential neighborhoods strung out along the two north-south transportation corridors, like strings of pearls.
State Route 99 is not expendable as a through-traffic corridor. Yet turning the section of 99 through downtown into a boulevard would effectively eliminate its function as one of the city’s two north-south arterials.
That would shut Seattle down.
There’s no money for a tunnel, and wishing won’t make it so. Quit dicking around and rebuild the Viaduct.
What’s off topic?
The guys such a loser he can’t even maintain a relationship, but your going to listen to him blarther on what is wrong with local politics?
Hey Goldy, here’s a problem with the local neighborhoods…… Kids growing up in broken families, with sad examples of role models.
Momus Pompous Assus @5
“I appluad your ex-wife in her excellent choice of kicking your pathetic ass to the curb.”
How do you know it wasn’t the other way around? Goldy doesn’t owe you an explanation of why his marriage went kaput because it’s none of your fucking business, but the fact he’s raising their daughter suggests he might not have been the weak link in the relationship.
Know what happens when you ASS U ME things, Pompous Ass?
8
As far as I’m concerned, the rings of the taxing circle can stop at 9th Avenue, Virginia Street, and Yesler Way.
9
“but let’s stop giving the hippies clamoring eliminating all freeways”
WTF are you talking about?
9
Just what this board needs, another wingnut from Freeperland.
12
The seawall is the Corps of Engineers’ responsibility. I’m sure they’ll do at least as good a job on it as they did on NOLA’s levees.
Besides, you don’t really need a seawall. What the hell is wrong with tide flats, or beaches? Why assume that fucking with nature is the only way to go? Viaducts can be, and are, built over water you know. There’s absolutely no reason why we need docks on the downtown waterfront, because no ships are loaded or unloaded there anymore, and there’s no reason why you must have retail shops and pedestrian malls instead of water under the viaduct’s piers. Pretty? Naw. But neither is a tunnel, for the motorists driving through it, who won’t be able to see anything except concrete or tiled walls. You want a tunnel, YOU pay for it. I ain’t gonna, not willingly, anyway.
16
“but would you really want to be in it in an earthquake? [ i was in the loma prieta quake and on the road that collapsed just ten minutes before the quake hit]”
Shows how much you know. A tunnel is safer in an earthquake than a bridge.
As for the monorail, the devil was in the details. The details of financing, the details of where the line would run, what the ridership would be, and little details like making no provision for parking at the stations. The monorail looked like a great concept, but the financing and design didn’t pencil out.
Voters supported the monorail four times, and put supporters in charge of building it. The proponents simply couldn’t get it right, so the fifth time around, the voters pulled the plug. By that time, it was reasonable to conclude our city does not have the talent needed to do the project right.
19
“The guys such a loser he can’t even maintain a relationship, but your going to listen to him blarther on what is wrong with local politics?”
You’re a loser too, Momus! Know why? Because I wouldn’t marry you, that’s why! If you can’t even maintain a relationship with a cute fluffy 10 3/4-lb. rabbit, how can you be married to a human? /When a little furry bunny rejects you, what chance do you have with a real WOMAN???
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER.
Goldy,
Criticizing the Seattle-area billionaires may not be a wise thing to do. A lot of those guys, like Mr. SBUX, send a lot of $$$ to the Democratic Party. There’s a rich dude from Real Networks that supplies a lot of funding for Air America. It’s probably best for your causes to not get them irate.
the thing to do , and this is the cheap way, is to just dig ditches all over downtown and let them fill up with water. then we can get a load of those venetian boats that you see in travel shows. we can outsource the guys who run the boats by hiring cheap italian boat guys.
this is the real hippie solution. take a few tokes and i’m sure the plan will look better and better.
All the comparisons to the big dig are utter bullshit.
Boston and a FEDERAL big pocket project are not comparable. Of course the big dig ate billions more – they were sucked from the Federal dollars. The Boston area builders and consultants got very rich.
Also, the Dig projuect was changed and redisgned in progress…. never cheap.
I don’t see that as an issue. many people will be watching this project – the expectation will be on time and close to budget.
It will not be the Big Dig.
Glad the Sea Wall is mentioned – The west side of the proposed tunnel is a massive concrete- modern, essential sea wall.
Two for one.
RR you sound like a rural R when you keep talking about no more taxes, we will just dry up and blow away.
Defeat other taxes, maybe, but not this one. Time for a decade of Seattle frugal, post tunnel — OK with me.
Go tunnel.
Momus you are a basket case. Go away.
11
The council vote for the tunnel last year was based on ALL new space i public space.
The sum total is a great gain, but it is in narrow strips, former frght of way, no location for major developers.
Public space only. What a bonus. Walkways, flowers, seating, food vendors. Should be appealing with that smell of the salt water.
The sad thing about George W. is that he’s making the Democrats look good.
Bob @ 32:
Show me the money. Where is the money? No money, no tunnel.
The viaduct is loathsome. Anyone who is driving northbound and “enjoying the view” ain’t driving all that well, anyway.
I love how making the viaduct a boulevard will kill downtown…let’s see, to the north, it is a boulevard once you pass over the George Washington Bridge, and to the south, it’s a Boulevard once you pass the West Seattle Freeway. And that two miles of non-boulevard road is critical how?
Forget the tunnel, forget the Viadork, and just surface the road already. You could certainly limit the number of cross streets to avoid terminal stop light city.
And is pointed out, who uses the waterfront anyway? A few cruise ship passengers and the feryy commuters.
35
And the sea wall?
roger….just what are you basing your assumption on that a tunnel would be safer in an earthquake??? i would be very interested in where you got your stats on that.
think about it….
during earthquakes alot of things happen. and let’s face it, even you cannot say that people can drive in seattle. come on…there are a million “seattle idiots can’t drive” jokes for a REASON. they can’t drive.
wrap your bunny ears around this image.
you are in the middle of the tunnel surrounded by several hundred other dim bulbs in cars and trucks when a large quake hits. what is the first thing every idiot in seattle does when challenged while driving? hits the brakes…
now imagine how fun the fires and exaust and screaming will be.
cripes….just going from gig harbor to tacoma whenever i would see that damn sign saying “WARNING….SEVERE CROSS WINDS AHEAD” i would cringe knowing full well that this meant that every single idiot would be crawling along doing the scandi-HOOvian roadblock at 20 miles an hour.
severe cross winds my ass. you want wind? cross the golden gate during a storm. and yet everyone manages to get across at the speed limit.but then we have functioning brains down here in california.
oh what the hell…washington is just so full of dumb shits it is a waste of space. it’s like the world’s largest parking lot for human paperweights [lest gravity should fail.]
Complaints about the cost of the tunnel ignore the tools granted by the Supreme Court that would allow us to totally fund the project.
The plan is two fold:
1. Declare eminent domain over all the waterfront buildings and pay the current distressed prices.
2. After the tunnel is complete, sell the now priceless harbor view property to the rich and famous.
I think there would be enough monies left over to provide all the homeless with new sleeping bags at least.
Wow, I never thought I would see the day when Roger Rabbit got serious, and at the same time disagreed with Goldy, but here it is. You can tell he is serious because he uses words instead of pasting the same phoneme over and over. Goldy, Roger is right, and so is Jason and a lot of other folks commenting here. Your logic is flawed. Jason makes the great point that in SF, the Embarcadero does not carry the serious alternative North South traffic that the Viaduct does here. And Roger sees that one pork barrel bilking of the taxpayers for billions to benefit a few rich property owners does not justify another. Furthermore, you conveniently don’t mention retrofitting the existing viaduct like they did with 280 in SF. It’s mostly been dismissed here in Seattle, but there is no reason why a retrofit could not also be explored.
A park over a tunnel would sure be nice, but unless you are willing to pay for it by creating a special tax district for yourself, then you should shut up. You are a fool if you don’t think that any special taxation won’t have to be applied to all Seattlelites and possibly all of WA to justify this price tag. There’s no comparison in scale between a tunnel project and what’s going on at South Lake Union.
The only sensible idea you have is to build a surface street. But it’s going to have to look a lot more like Lakeshore drive in Chicago and a lot less like the Embarcadero in SF to handle the volume of traffic. So much for your idea of a place to stroll with the next woman that’d going to divorce you once she gets to know you. But at least this idea would be realtively cheap to implement so we could focus on better use of our tax dollars.
How much is Nickels paying you for this post?
oh what the hell…washington is just so full of dumb shits it is a waste of space.
There’s hope. One dumb shit just moved to CAALEEFUURNEEA..
No-one’s talked yet about the other “T” word – tolls. It can’t shoulder the entire cost but it sure would help – thoughts?
Clueless, Are you suggesting tolls to drive through Seattle or tolls on some/most/all of our “FREEWAYS” to pay for a Seattle boondoggle? Just checking?
You know Roger is right. I didn’t like having to pay for rich white guys getting new stadia! That money could have gone to help my peeps in the Rainier Valley area get better services, new homes, apartments, tear down crack houses. But nooooooo, help rich white guys. Doesn’t that sound just like the democratic party line?
Oh shit I forgot the most important part. New schools too!
Goldy,
If you think the tunnel is only gonna cost $1 billion more than a new elevated structure, you’re not as smart as I generally think you are.
BTW – some of what accounts for the proposed replacement being 50% wider is the stated need for 12′ travel lanes. However, they built the W.Seattle Bridge w/12′ lanes, and then restriped them down to about 10′ or so to accomodate a bus lane, so I ain’t buying the argument that this is a “necessary” component of a new elevated structure (breakdown lanes are a good idea, though).
Given a choice between screwing Ballard and West Seattle and giving downtown condo dwellers a massively expensive new lawn to play on, I know which choice I’d make…
Of course, retrofitting the existing structure – per the recommendations of noted engineers Neil Twelker and Victor Grey – is the more prudent idea, but downtown developers don’t stand to gain in the same way. Pity.
Anonymous @ 35,
You’re way off base – there are no stoplights on SR 99 between the Battery Street Tunnel and well past Woodland Park – I’d hardly call that section a “boulevard” – it’s a limited access road that’s about 10 mph shy of being a freeway. Same with the flydown between about Holgate and Spokane Street on SR 99 before it turns into East Marginal – which is a massively wide truck street with a lot fewer stoplights than you’d have through downtown.
I took the waterfront route yesterday from the W.Seattle high bridge to Western to avoid an accident on the Viaduct, and it added at least 20 minutes to my usual trip on that route.
I sit here stunned because I am in agreement with Roger.
WTF it that all about?
Roger quick, call me a schill before the world stops turning.
christamas ghost @ 37, I found one article from the SFGATE.com files concerning said Loma Prieta earthquake and comparing bridges and tunnels, dated 1998
“From a seismic standpoint, tunnels are certainly more stable than bridges to begin with,” said Chris Brittle, planning manager for the Metropolitan Transportation Commission. “They have the inherent solidity of the rock around them.”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....N19367.DTL
just for your information (and mine!)
The Cascadian Fault Line along our cost has not slipped causing a mega-thrust earthquake since January, 1700. That’s 306 years. Evidence of that 1700 Quake is irrefutable. The devastating tsunami is documented in both Japan and in our Indian history. Scientists have uncovered clear & irrefutable evidence of these mega-thrust earthquakes every 300-500 years for many millenium. Downtown Seattle is built on fill….a LIQUEFACTION ZONE….JELLO!!!!!!!!!!
When it hits, little will survive. There are hundreds & hundreds of dangerous buildings in Seattle that will crumble. No doubt.
The only real answer is to abandoned Seattle. That’s right….everybody just pack up and leave!
Just like New Orleans, it is hopeless when the big one hits. The LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS are angry with Bush. They should be outraged with Gregoire, the Democratic Legislature, Greg Nickels and the Seattle City Council.
Seattle was built in the wrong place on the wrong material. It is sinking sand. Rather than pour multi-billions into a death trap, let’s be more like our Indian brothers & sisters. When danger loomed, they MIGRATED!!
Time for the great Seattle Migration.
How about moving to France?!!
Seattlites seem to fawn all over the French and their way of life. We appreciate their inept Military too.
For those of you LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS not versed in French, allow me to start your education with one of their most common expressions:
“I SURRENDER!!!!!!!”
Now put on a beret & repeat after me….”I SURRENDER”!!!!!!!!!
That expression is France’s greatest contribution to universal underatnding.
RTID oversight means three counties get to pay for your under-estimated tunnel money-pit.
A question:
Why is it still impossible by any stretch of the imagination to get from Enumclaw to Redmond via public transit? They’re both in King County.
Fuck that! Until I can get to work in less than 4 hours on public transit, I wont vote another tax for anyone. Especially for a road I haven’t had to use for better than 15 years.
Rog sez–
““can anybody honestly tell me that rebuilding this monstrosity is the preferred alternative”
Yes, because (a) we need the arterial (it carries 1/3 of our commuter traffic), (b) we can’t afford a tunnel, and © I don’t own downtown property, so I don’t give a damn about downtown views, and I’m neither able nor willing to pay higher taxes to enhance the property values of downtown property owners.
If they want better views and higher property values, let THEM fork over the extra money needed for a tunnel option. I’m tired of civic leaders coming to me with their hand out. I get zero benefit from the taxes they ask me to pay. And I’m tapped out!
Commentby Roger Rabbit— 3/8/06@ 1:32 pm
Good Bunny!!! You have the absolute 2nd best idea….2nd only to mine which is for all Seattle-ites to migrate to fucking FRANCE! I SURRENDER! I SURRENDER! I SURRENDER!!!!!!
See, speaking French isn’t that difficult!
I SURRENDER! I SURRENDER! I SURRENDER!!!!!
France’s well-established motto!
Do they ever sare have a French PRIDE Parade???
Google “French Military victories” and click ‘I’m Feeling Lucky’
Rog sez:
““It’s time to start giving serious attention to a third replacement option, one which I would argue is far preferable to replacing the existing Viaduct with a new, bulked-up model: the waterfront boulevard.”
Goldy, maybe you haven’t lived in Seattle long enough yet, because you just don’t get it.
Seattle is hemmed by water on west and east. Consequently, Seattle is a strip city running north-south, with employment concentrated in the city center and residential neighborhoods strung out along the two north-south transportation corridors, like strings of pearls.
State Route 99 is not expendable as a through-traffic corridor. Yet turning the section of 99 through downtown into a boulevard would effectively eliminate its function as one of the city’s two north-south arterials. That would shut Seattle down.
Commentby Roger Rabbit— 3/8/06@ 1:45 pm
Rog, once again thank you for schooling the KLOWNmeister!!
Geez Goldy….open your fucking eyes. It takes a damn Rabbit to see the obvious for you? Must be the carrots.
Ivan sez:
“There’s no money for a tunnel, and wishing won’t make it so. Quit dicking around and rebuild the Viaduct.
Commentby ivan— 3/8/06@ 1:46 pm
They won’t stop dicking around ivan until all the dicking around money is gone!! Along with all the construction money.
Seattle—THE ANAL CANAL OF THE UNIVERSE specializing in the Elsie the Cow Method of Process & Decision-Making…….
Chew on it awhile, SWALLOW, puke it up, chew on it some more, SWALLOW, puke it up……………
Repeat until all the fucking money is gone!!!
My objection to the tunnel is straightforward: a lot of other very important road projects are on hold right now because Seattle folks insist they have to wait until the Viaduct is fixed. What, you say the 520 bridge just blew away in a storm and sank? Too bad – no meaningful funding to fix that until the new Viaduct is built. 520 is a greater safety issue, and 405 a greater regional transportation problem, but the Viaduct stands in the way of even starting to fix them. I want the Viaduct issue to get solved or to get out of the way.
STORM DAMAGES 520 BRIDGE; STEEL BEAM BROKEN; BRIDGE CLOSED “UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE”
Well folks, this may be it — the event we talked about when we were debating the ill-advised right-wing initiative to repeal the gas tax. This afternoon, traffic stopped moving across the 520 bridge. Wave and wind battering from today’s winter storm snapped a beam, and the bridge is now closed indefinitely.
This is really scary – I am agreeing with Roger. I like the idea of the boulevard. The Embarcadero is really quite a pleasant drive. It wouldn’t be overly expensive to widen the existing road, and adding and overpass here and there to avoid too many lights. The current road is totally unacceptable.
This would have the added benefit of making traffic a little worse in Seattle, which will either force people into mass transit (making the greenies happy) or send businesses across the water (making the capitalists happy).
Rebuild the viaduct asap. No tunnel, no boulevard, no bullshit.
Disclaimer re 52
My comments about the viaduct were not intended to be, and are not, an endorsement of Mr. Cynical’s
[ ] 1. opinions,
[ ] 2. partisan affiliation,
[ ] 3. character,
[ ] 4. sexual orientation, or
[ ] 5. washing machine.
56
Maybe should replace the 520 bridge first.
Goldy,
Shoot me. I tend to agree with Janet. How about a surface blvd. @99. Make it one way south bound. Make the downtown stretch of I-5 more of a one way north bound.
Either that, or just fill in Elliot Bay all the way to Vashon Is. They found dirt for the third runway, didn’t they?
The cost of concrete and steel has gone through the roof, making the cost of the larger Viaduct unrealistic. Also any potential view will be blocked by the new side barriers. Nothing scarier than watching a traffic collision happen in front of you on the Viaduct, with cars bouncing off the sides. It’s just a matter of time before a semi goes over the top.
A boulevard with limited access, and several underpasses or overpasses (ie; short tunnels) is probably what we will get.
Wow — I am in agreement with the Wabbit. Looks like the Wabbit is getting older and heavier — 10-3/4 pounds! Is that from eating all of Stefan’s carrots and vegetable garden? Or do Wabbits get heavier after they are “fixed”?
Guys/Gals, do you really think Seattle will widen the boulevard and lose all those paid parking spots now under the viaduct? Hell no. That’s lost revenue, and you know city libruls don’t like lost revenue!!!
MWS – someone earlier mentioned how much the city will make from selling the property that will now have a great view. That should more than make up for the parking revenues. Besides, Joe Diamond is 99 years old – will he even notice?
Who’d have thought that the viaduct would have finally brought together the diverse group it has?
Rog sez:
My comments about the viaduct were not intended to be, and are not, an endorsement of Mr. Cynical’s
[ ] 1. opinions,
[ ] 2. partisan affiliation,
[ ] 3. character,
[ ] 4. sexual orientation, or
[ ] 5. washing machine.
Commentby Roger Rabbit— 3/8/06@ 6:10 pm”
Disclaimer accepted and almost goes without saying! I was breaking out in hives thinking how much sense you made for once Rog. I couldn’t find my Calamine Lotion either. Your disclaimer worked just as good!
Goldy – you’re right, and I too agree completely.
I’m not quite a native son, but I first passed through Seattle as a little kid in 1955 (just a few years after the viaduct opened, when it was clean and shiny) and I still remember how ugly I thought it looked then, back when the waterfront activity was really part of the city. I’ve lived here the past 41 years and every time I see the viaduct I’m still appalled at the total stupidity of the people in power at the time it was planned.
And now, in our shortsightedness, we want to do it wrong a second time, for another 50 years.
61
“Looks like the Wabbit is getting older and heavier – 10-3/4 pounds!”
I like to eat.
” … do Wabbits get heavier after they are “fixed”?”
FIXED???!!!! WTF are you talking about? Bite your tongue!!! :(
NO I HAVE NOT BEEN “FIXED” — !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They’ll have to kill me, because I won’t go quietly. Any vet who tries to “fix” Roger Rabbit is gonna need a new set of balls.
62
No problem. Parking will be outsourced to India.
65
“And now, in our shortsightedness, we want to do it wrong a second time, for another 50 years. Commentby bj— 3/8/06@ 7:00 pm”
Not to worry, it won’t last 50 years.
ROGER RABBIT POLL
Seattle will disappear in
[ ] 1. less than 5 years
[ ] 2. 5 to 10 years
[ ] 3. 10 to 20 years
[ ] 4. 20 to 50 years
[ ] 5. more than 50 years
Seattle will disappear because of
[ ] 1. a nuclear attack
[ ] 2. the Rapture
[ ] 3. extinction of the human species
[ ] 4. Mt. Rainier eruption
[ ] 5. earthquake
If you answer is “nuclear attack,” Seattle will most likely be blown away by
[ ] 1. terrorists
[ ] 2. North Korea
[ ] 3. Republicans
[ ] 4. a kid building a nuclear bomb in his dad’s basement
[ ] 5. our Saudi friends
Why do all these trolls suddenly agree with me? Is this a conspiracy to ruin my reputation?
cougar@47 says ““They have the inherent solidity of the rock around them.’’
thanks for the link and info. after reading that particular part i started wondering what the geology is around the viaduct. i would guess that it is lahar type soil….not rock. does anyone know? because that would really tell everyone what has to be done there.
in the end the safest thing to do would be a wide boulevard, wouldn’t it? between earthquakes and possible mountain activity….
in many ways seattle is alot like new orleans. they are both built in the very last place anyone would put a city today, don’t you think? seattle is built on the old lahar flow paths as is tacoma, right?
****and geez, rog, you are making way too much sense today. what are you up to anyway?
Goldy sez:
“Walking hand-in-hand through the shadows of the clamorous and crumbling Alaska Way Viaduct”
Perhaps your ex- ditched you because every time she saw the AWV, she thought of you and the smell of cheap wine and urine. That gets kind of wearing. Tough break Goldy.
On the brighter side, it allowed you to explore your gayness and God only knows what else considering the company you keep.
christmasghost–
Seattle is built on JELLO. It’s a liquefaction zone. If you sink anchors down halfway to China, you might be ok.
Well not me. I came to this city as an outsider, and I’m here to tell you that the Viaduct sucks. And you know what…? Rebuilding it 50 percent wider can only make it suck at least 50 percent more.
Goldy lets tear it down and not replace it but instead widen I5 to support the traffic. Hell make everyone exit in the University District or at Martin L. King and close all exits and on ramps into Seattle from I5. Seattle has that new light rail, and sound transit to carry all their customers into the city. Who need any more streets downtown everybody is moving over to the East Side to enjoy the better living condition? They also have schools that can complete with the best in the country and Seattle is now starting to close their 12k schools. The teachers are moving to Canada from West Seattle because they might have to work for a living.
“in the end the safest thing to do would be a wide boulevard, wouldn’t it? ‘
Not if there’s liquefaction.
“in many ways seattle is alot like new orleans. they are both built in the very last place anyone would put a city today, don’t you think?”
Hmmm… same argument could be made for most cities in Japan.
“seattle is built on the old lahar flow paths as is tacoma, right?”
No. Check out the map halfway down the page here.
Since they want to name King COunty after MLK, let’s rename it after MLK too. It’s the MLK Viaduct. It’s the MLK Boulevard. It’s the MLK Tunnel. I like that. Let’s name all important real estate, roadways after MLK! Are ya with me libruls?
Justifying the surface boulevard idea boils down to this: maintaining current levels of traffic, such as that carried by the viaduct, and preparing for future traffic growth everywhere, always leads to more traffic overwhelming new road capacity. It’s as plain as day, but few have the balls to face this stark reality. Not only can we not build our way out of traffic congestion, doing so always makes traffic congestion worse. Duh.
If the traffic-carrying capacity is lost with a surface boulevard, new traffic patterns will evolve than involve less cross-county commuting. It is highly likely there will be many economic benefits to the districts and neighborhoods whose residents once got their needs met by long-distance driving before the closure of I-99.
Thus, the surface boulevard is not a crazy idea inferred by Danny Westneats article “Who’s Crazy Now?” It would be a boon to outlying neighborhoods as well as the most sensible solution for the Waterfront.
Consider routing the boulevard up the I-99 corridor to the Battery Street Tunnel, with one difference: go under Elliott and Western Avenues. This reduces the overall grade of the hill climb. Southbound entrance from Elliott would be downhill, rather than the current uphill entrance. Northbound exit onto Western would be a speed-reducing uphill, rather than the current speed-enhancing downhill exit. And of course, the elevated monstrousity there will be likewise removed.
The surface route saves enough money to devote elsewhere, fixing the Mercer Mess, lowering Aurora, whatever.
Why not just knock the damn thing down and let the traffic that uses it ( which ain’t that much ) find other routes. Why do we need a freeway on the waterfront anyway?
Wells is absolutely correct, it’s been shown time and again if you add more lanes, people fill them up.
The best possible thing that could be done is to eliminate the need for people to live 10,20,30,40 miles from their job.
58 Roger,
Actually I agree here too. The 520 bridge is a major point of grid lock.
It would be a boon to all to fix it.
73
“seattle is built on the old lahar flow paths as is tacoma, right?”
Yeah, something like that. There’s 5,000 feet of glacial till under our feet before you hit bedrock. But it’s pretty dense material — have you tried digging a hole in your yard recently? As a rabbit … rabbits know. Geez, I hit another rock every 6 inches.
74
“considering the company you keep”
Goldy keeps company with Roger Rabbit. You got a problem with that, Republican?
74
And before you make some smartass remark, no this ain’t no inter-species romance, Goldy’s relationship with me is strictly business. Political business. To wit: Crushing you Republican cockroaches like the infestation you are. Blecccch.
75
“Seattle is built on JELLO. It’s a liquefaction zone.”
Then how come the Columbia Center is still standing?
79
I have a better idea. Let’s name it, Republicans Suck.
81
“let the traffic that uses it ( which ain’t that much ) find other routes”
110,000 vehicles per day, to be precise.
Rog sez:
“And before you make some smartass remark, no this ain’t no inter-species romance, Goldy’s relationship with me is strictly business. Political business. To wit: Crushing you Republican cockroaches like the infestation you are. Blecccch.
Commentby Not Cynical Just Curious— 3/9/06@ 1:41 am”
Rog—you forgot to change your name back to Roger Rabbit before you posted. That’s what happens when you post after 1:30AM!!
When Seattle puts the Tunnel up for a public vote, they ought toclearly specify the not to exceed budget….and that if it exceeds that Budget, Nickels and the Council will pledge their personal assets forego their salaries until it is paid.
It is called “puttin’ yer money where yer mouth is”!
This ballot will be a real joke!
In the meantime, the Cascadian Fault Line has been eerily quiet. That’s what happens before it’s time to mega-thrust!!! Normally the pressure is regularly released. Some very unsettling patterns of inactivity in the past year. Not good….but when it cuts loose, it will help the inept bumbling idiots with their decision-making.
re 89: Whether they repair it or build a tunnel my scenario is the only one that actually confronts the reality of what’s going to happen. It will be closed and people will find alternate routes.
Happens all the time in big cities. You guys worry too much and don’t do anything about the source of your concerns until it’s too late. I saw a PBS special in Clinton’s administration warning about what was going to happen in NO — and guess what! It did.
90
“Rog—you forgot to change your name back to Roger Rabbit before you posted. That’s what happens when you post after 1:30AM!! Commentby Mr. Cynical— 3/9/06@ 6:21 am”
Mrs. Rabbit has been posting again. (sigh)
91
I’ll bet Rove is pounding vibrating rods into the ground right now!!! There’s nothing Rove would like better than for Seattle to disappear under a lahar!
Rog–
Which Mrs. Rabbit???
Is it that bitch Mrs. Rabbit #5879????
Like it or not, Seattle’s watefront is the front door of the state to the rest of the world, and downtown Seattle is the state’s biggest employment hub, by far. Employment and housing downtown is going to continue to grow. The city and the state will be better for it.
The idea to rebuild an even bigger Viaduct should be a non-starter. Helen Somers likes the view heading northbound and so do I and the 50,000 people who do it every day. But what about the view for the hundreds of thousands who use downtown and the waterfront every day? And what about the the hundreds of thousands more who will live, work and enjoy downtown Seattle over the next 100 years?
Rebuilding a bigger Viaduct is not an option. The only real reason its on the table is because the state highway department wants to make sure it doesn’t lose one bit of freeway lane and is willing to build a bigger monument to this 1940s approach to transportation.
The only sane choices are: tunnel or teardown combined with re-working the entire downtown street grid. The beauty of the tunnel is that we get both better through traffic and better in-downtown traffic, along with a much better downtown and seawall. So don’t buy-in to the silly arguement that all the tunnel is about is urban renewal.
We should tear the Viaduct down now. (But leave one of those ugly piers as a monument to freeway-folly.) Once people see what happens to the city when this big ugly monster is removed, we can have a sane debate about what happens next. And the case will be closed on the wacky idea of building a bigger monster.
Sane choice #3 – retrofit the existing structure against likely (as opposed to 2500-year events) earthquakes, fix the seawall, and take it down after the next earthquake in 30 years or so.
Fuck tearing it down now – I drive on it daily, and will happily take my chances rather than spending AT LEAST another 40 minutes in traffic a day, thank you very much…
The Cascadian Fault Line along our cost has not slipped causing a mega-thrust earthquake since January, 1700. That’s 306 years. Evidence of that 1700 Quake is irrefutable. The devastating tsunami is documented in both Japan and in our Indian history. Scientists have uncovered clear & irrefutable evidence of these mega-thrust earthquakes every 300-500 years for many millenium. Downtown Seattle is built on fill….a LIQUEFACTION ZONE….JELLO!!!!!!!!!!
When it hits, little will survive. There are hundreds & hundreds of dangerous buildings in Seattle that will crumble. No doubt.
The only real answer is to abandoned Seattle. That’s right….everybody just pack up and leave!
Just like New Orleans, it is hopeless when the big one hits. The LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS are angry with Bush. They should be outraged with Gregoire, the Democratic Legislature, Greg Nickels and the Seattle City Council.
Seattle was built in the wrong place on the wrong material. It is sinking sand. Rather than pour multi-billions into a death trap, let’s be more like our Indian brothers & sisters. When danger loomed, they MIGRATED!!
Time for the great Seattle Migration.
How about moving to France?!!
Seattlites seem to fawn all over the French and their way of life. We appreciate their inept Military too.
For those of you LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS not versed in French, allow me to start your education with one of their most common expressions:
“I SURRENDER!!!!!!!”
Now put on a beret & repeat after me….”I SURRENDER”!!!!!!!!!
That expression is France’s greatest contribution to universal underatnding.
The Big Dig certainly is an apt analogy. The figure of a $1 Billion difference between a new viaduct and a tunnel is ludicrous.
All major constructions projects like this go over budget. Exhibit ‘A’: light rail. And the less we can foresee, the more it is likely to go over budget. What lies beneath the surface along the waterfront is a huge unknown. It’s all landfill, and there could be any manner of junk down there. The Big Dig was below sea level. The hwy 99 tunnel would be below sea level. The Big Dig ran into all sorts of unexpected problems. A hwy 99 tunnel is almost guaranteed to run into unexpected problems because we have very little idea what we are proposing to tunnel through. The Big Dig at least had the benefit of federal support. We have very little federal funding for the tunnel, and no more will be forthcoming. We are on our own to finance this boondoggle.
Yes, I agree, the viaduct is a hideous scar through the city. And, sure, in a perfect world where money grew on trees and there were never any budget overruns, it would be lovely to have a nice spiffy tunnel to replace the viaduct.
The tunnel is a pipe dream. And Nickels is about as honest about the lead up to this tunnel as Bush was in the lead up to the war. My prediction: If we start this tunnel, we’ll end up spending $10+ Billion on it before it is ever finished. Plus interest for the next 30 years.
Here is what one of YOUR Regional Transit Executive Committee members said recently:
“Bunney said he doesn’t think any projects will be eliminated to save costs but more evaluation of the cost estimates will be done and “we may have to be creative about how we finance them.”
It’s the “creative financing” by a guy who also names himself after a furry creature that is cause for pause!
Cynical: Roger Dumb Bunny does think like a conservative at times. I wonder if he is acting in drag. Think of it, a drag queen bunny. Roger “Rue Paul” Rabbit?
If Seattle and Seattle only pays for the new tunnel, then they should build it. If they are going to make everyone else in the state pay for it then the Viaduct or nothing. I am not willing to pay more taxes for something to pay for Seattle’s wastefil spemding. Wait! I have an Idea. If you let the areas of King County outside Seattle break off and form our own counties. I will help pay for the tunnel, but no cost over runs, if what we raise is less than what is needed like the Big Dig is Boston, than Seattle and only Seattle will pay them.
Cynical: Roger Dumb Bunny does think like a conservative at times. I wonder if he is acting in drag. Think of it, a drag queen bunny. Roger “Rue Paul” Rabbit?
Commentby Puddybud— 3/10/06@ 11:42 am
Good one Pudster! I was thinking about Dennis Rodman in a wedding dress.
Hey, I’ve always felt Rog has at least 1/2 of a brain….unlike the other brainless dumbfuck KLOWNS.
Presently, the best part of my commute is glimpsing beautiful
Elliot Bay. What moron wants to drive in a dark leaking
tunnel? This is a struggle for a view. Who’s going to get it?
Commuters, or Fat-Cat Condo developers?
Personally, I love the viaduct and the view from it.