Hubert G. Locke, former dean of the Daniel J. Evans Graduate School of Public Affairs at the UW, has a guest column in the Seattle P-I, arguing that we have an “imperfect initiative system worth keeping.” He particularly singles out Tim Eyman for the way he has abused the process, turning it into a lucrative business.
Eyman’s hijinks are such that one is tempted to think about scuttling the entire business. While that would be a mistake, the larger one is allowing this political wild card to continue running amok, trumping the legislative process and, for all practical purposes, wielding a personal veto over well-considered government decisions.
Personally, I don’t share Prof. Locke’s faith in the initiative system, and remain convinced that it almost always results in language inferior to that produced by a deliberative, legislative process. But I’m enough of a pragmatist to understand that eliminating the initiative process entirely is simply not politically realistic.
So how do we stop “this political wild card” from “running amok,” short of taking Timmy out behind the wood shed and shooting him? (Also not a politically viable solution.) We need some initiative reforms to directly address the most blatant abuses of the last few years, and here’s a few suggestions in no particular order.
Ban paying per signature
The overwhelming majority of signatures are gathered by paid workers, who currently earn a street price of anywhere from $0.75 to $3.00 per signature, depending on the time of year and the competition. This not only encourages outright signature fraud, it discourages petitioners from actually taking the time to educate signers about the issues. (Most signature gatherers are paid mercenaries who carry petitions for several initiatives at once.)
I’d prefer to ban paid signature gathering entirely, but the courts have already said no. Oregon requires signature gatherers to be paid hourly, and so should we.
Restrict content on petitions
Tim Eyman is a liar, and his petitions are filled with lies. For example he once titled a 25% property tax cut initiative with the bold headline: “No New Income Tax!” That’s just plain wrong.
Since we surely don’t want government censures approving editorial content, the solution is to eliminate it entirely. The law already strictly lays out required elements, such as signature lines, ballot title, ballot summary, and certain notices. Those should be the only elements legally allowed on a petition.
The current mix of proscribed legalistic elements and lying, propagandist bullshit can only serve to confuse voters as to the actual intent of the initiative. Let’s just give potential signers what they’ll see on the ballot, and not leave room for any lies.
Allow legal challenges prior to the ballot
With the notable exception of my initiative to proclaim Tim Eyman a horse’s ass, the general legal rule is that initiatives are not ripe for challenge until after they have been approved by voters. At the time of the AG’s humorless scope challenge of my initiative, I wrote that I wouldn’t have minded so much if such policy were applied uniformly. And that’s exactly what we need to do.
Citizens should have the right to challenge any initiative on grounds that it violates the constitution or federal law, and petition the courts to bar it from the ballot… and voters should have a right to know that when they approve an initiative it will actually become law. Our recent history of initiatives being tossed out by the courts after the fact, only serves to undermine public trust in politics; a little pre-ballot vetting would do the process good.
No, it wouldn’t necessarily prevent lying schemers like the EFF from running cynical, political stunts like their voter purge initiative, but it would force them to draft a measure that is at the very least, legal. Our supposedly hallowed system of “direct democracy” should require a little effort.
Create incentives for filing initiatives to the legislature
We should increase the number signatures required to file an initiative to people, and decrease the number required to file an initiative to the legislature, thus providing a substantial incentive for initiative sponsors to pursue the latter.
Of the two, initiatives to the legislature are by far the more reasoned and deliberative process, as they require the legislature to hold hearings and debate the initiative, or put it on the ballot… with or without a proposed alternative. This gives the average citizen (with half a million dollars to buy signatures) the opportunity to force the legislature to address an issue, but potentially gives voters more than just a simple up or down vote on a measure drafted entirely by some angry watch salesman sitting in the bonus room of his Mukilteo McMansion.
Charge a reasonable filing fee
Tim Eyman files dozens of initiatives a year, and while each one costs taxpayers thousands of dollars to process, Timmy only pays a $5.00 filing fee. That’s ridiculous.
The Sec. of State should be able to charge a reasonable fee — say, $150.00 — waived or refunded upon submission of a reasonable number of signatures. We charge candidates much more to file for office… I suppose to discourage frivolous filings. Well, in recent years the SOS’s office has been inundated with frivolous filings, and the best way to discourage this is to require sponsors to put a little bit of effort (or money) up front.
Anyway, those are a few of my suggestions for initiative reform. I’d love to hear yours.
What a load of crap.
An initiative can be overturned imediately by a 2/3 vote of the legislature.
The initiative process is the only thing we have to keep the legislature in check.
The fact is most initiatives never make it to the ballot box and even fewer pass. The very first initiative in this state was done with paid signature gatherers and was paid for by legislators! It passed and was tossed out as being unconstitutional. It was an initiative for a state income tax.
I get really tired of people on both sides of the aisle complaining about initiatives. It’s all about power and the nanny state mentality. It’s much easier to control a few legislators than the will of the people.
No initiatives! The Democrats must be able to raise taxes until the private sector just………………………..leaves! Have a great weekend, grasshoppers!!
GBS, Ah, The truth shall set you free!!! Captain’s Mast!!! And violations of the UCMJ!! Now I see that the bitterness is still around, Clarice, errrr, Hillary!! I see the chip on your shoulder is a bitter one!! Any you lied about your punishment, as any “E Man” who strikes a commissioned officer would get a little brig time. Or did you just “wiff” him, “Brokeback Mountain” style????? So bitter, for soooooooooooo long!! And the Captain shit on you because you were a shitbird!!!!!!!!!! SHITBIRD, Hillary!!!!!!!!!! And while all the real SEALs were enjoying Pattaya Beach, YOU were restricted and pulling extra duty!!! E3 SHITBIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Power to the People, but not the Republican people who vote on initiatives!! [hehe]
Jeez JCH, isn’t it lunchtime now?
Maybe the “Milwaukee Black 5” will gather the signatures for any initiatives that King County Democrats require!! [Maybe 50% will be real!]
I’ll go along with: Hourly rates for paid gatherers and a moderate increase in the filing fee.
Initiatives one of the checks built into our system.
Maybe we’re seeing more as of late because politicos (BOTH flavors) aren’t listening to the will of the people.
Or
Maybe we’re just hearing about them more as of late because the MSM types don’t like initiatives.
Hey, the initiative process involves the PEOPLE at the GRASSROOTS level. Didn’t that used to be the mantra of the left (And now “borowed” by the right?)
We could require mental health screening for the people that file initiatives. Pay particular attention to sociopaths and pathological narcissism and BOOM. No Republican initiatives!
1.
Not even close:
http://www.secstate.wa.gov/ele.....tives.aspx
This was the very first initiative in Washington:
INITIATIVE MEASURE NO. 3
(Statewide Prohibition) Filed January 8, 1914. Submitted to the voters at the state general election held on November 3, 1914 and approved by the following vote: For – 189,840 Against – 171,208. Act is now identified as Chapter 2, Laws of 1915.
The income tax measure you cite occured in 1932.
You aren’t seeking very hard.
Initiatives have done good things – they preserved the Pike Place Market, created Seattle’s historic districts, legalized abortion in Washington, made marijuana laws Seattle’s lowest enforcement priority, protected City parks from being sold or transferred, etc etc etc.
That said, I don’t have a problem requiring signature gatherers to be paid hourly rather on a per signature basis (assuming this will survive court challenge). I can’t support restricting content or disallowing them before they reach the ballot. In the first instance, it puts government in the role of being an arbiter of accuracy in political matters, and I have problems with where that will lead (we have enough top-down corporate governance in this state, thanks very much). In the second, again, this has historically been used to stifle legitimate policy matters (land use matters that an elected body makes decisions on ought to be subject to initiative, regardless of what you think of the GMA) in favor of the existing power structure. I do think the initiative is a fundamental right under our State Constitution, and that power ought to reside with the people. The only execeptions ought to be where an initiative would discriminate against a constitutionally protected class of people – which raises interesting issues with Tim’s current P.O.S anti-gay initiative.
It only took four posts this morning before JCH went from being a stupid rethug nazi to a stupid racist rethug nazi. I guess that’s progress.
Goldy,
You should get down on your knees and thank Tim Eyman.
let’s face it, without Eyman, you have no identity.
GBS Update: He has been driven from HorsesAss like a Muslim from a Pork Bar-B-Q!!!!!
Mr. X @11
He also hates our troops:
@3 E3 SHITBIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JCH @ 3:
Here’s the differance between me, you and you failed president. I can admit I made a mistake. OK, I misspelled Pattaya Beach.
Guess what? I probably can’t remember how to correctly spell every place on the planet that I’ve been to. (Notice the proper use of a preposition at the end of the sentence.)
It’s really lunch time now. Is your mommy getting your soup ready?
Mr.X: most of what you listed were city initiatives and my view is that they are much more meaningfull on a city level than on a county level than on a statewide level,in that order. The reason is that those who sign are more likely to have a clue about the issue. But Dr. Lock is right, this is a valuable part of our process.
I would support hourly pay for sig gatherers, a $500 filing fee and a requirment that the wording and intent pass a constitutional review. One other important change that should be looked at is a requirement that the fiscal impacts of any initiative will have to be clearly printed on its face. This could help or hurt an initiatives chances, but, the idae of passing a mandate without providing for the funding would be less attractive and the idea of cutting a funding source without desclosing the direct impact specific services would only get signatures and votes with the implications shown up front.
Too hot for GBS [aka Hillary] here!! He is probably eating lunch [alone] at the local Denny’s, crying in his cherry coke!! GBS laments, “Why couldn’t I be the officer? Why can’t I be the one in charge? Life is soooooooooo unfair!! I’m old and ugly and I’m still a SHITBIRD! I couldn’t even make it on Horsesass.com!”
Actually, those are fairly good suggestions.
The initiative process is a necessary check on government, but since the US Supreme Court will not allow laws against paid signature gathers (foolish, as an intiative should be a show that people care enough to bring the measure to the ballot, not that a few people have enough money to bring a measure to the ballot), your suggstions would be as good as you can get.
Particle Man,
I think the fiscal impact is probably better addressed as a voters guide requirement (as California does), but it’s a good point.
@9, you are correct. It has been some time since I read up on initiatives.
There is a very good book out called “Citizen Lawmakers, The Ballot Initiative Revolution” by David D. Schmidt. This book covers the Initiative and Referendum history in all the states. The copyright date on my copy is 1989. It gives a great insight into what lead each of the states that have initiatives created them. It is a very good read.
marks @ 14:
JCH, like all conservatives don’t hate our troops, they only hate the ones that disagree with them politically or the ones who didn’t WASHOUT, or as we liked to say D.O.R. or Performance Dropped.
JCH, was “Performance Dropped” from flight school because he wasn’t good enough. Now he lashes his anger out at all Liberals who accomplished something he could not.
Mr X. Here is something to think about. In the legislature, if a bill has a fiscal impact it follows a seperate path in order to have that impact valued. In 90% of the cases, the fiscal impact is not subjective and reflects a factual calculation. The 10% would fuel good debate but even so, the implications would be part of the debate. So if the proposed initiative was screened for constitutionality and its fiscal implications and (just like the initiative title is approved) these findings were incorperated as called for by statute then we would waist a lot less money fighting over things that are drafted with huge errors intended or not.
I know Goldy likes to criticize initiatives but to assume that the Washington State Legislature will represent citizen views on many issues iignores history. Initiatives were used twice in this state to remove the sales tax on food, which is a very regressive tax. It was used twice to raise the state minimum wage because legislators would not do so. It was used to reqiure that polluters pay for cleaning up their own toxic waste, not taxpayers. Again the legislature didn’t act. An initiative created the Public Disclosure Commission – a model for the rest of the country. The legislature didn’t do that. Another initiative put in place campaign contribution limits. The Shoeline Management Act was passed by initiative. These are just a few of measures I would consider good for the state.
On the other side if you think the Legislature when it does act is so wise look at all the corporate taxbreaks it gives at public expense. A sales tax break for buying gold and silver bullion. A tax break for selling bull semen. Tax breaks for Boeing and Microsoft. The list goes on.
The reality is that neither the initiative or legislative process is perfect. People can buy their way onto the ballot by paying for signatures. Special interests can buy legislators and other public officials by spending huge amounts of money through unregulated PAC’s that have no contribution limits.
Either way we need an informed citizenry that is involved. People need to participate and educate themselves on the candidates and issues.
Several ways initiatives could be improved would be to rquire that only registered Washington voters could collect signatures. This would help to limit out of state mercenaries coming in to put things on the ballot when they don’t even live here. After all, we don’t allow people to vote unless they are registered voters. And petitions are legal documents protected by state law.
And the idea of limiting what can be put on an initiative to only what the state requires is a reasonable one. That stops people from misrepresenting what they are asking people to sign. A uniform official petition makes since considering that some have abused the process for their own personal gain.
JCH:
If I were faced with these two choices I would take B over A any day of the week.
A) Naval Officer who WASHED-OUT of flight school and became a Supply Officer in the Gator Navy.
or
B) Enlisted man who became a SEAL.
B) Has no shame, and really has NO REGRETS.
Whereas A) means having to live your whole life knowing you couldn’t hack it where other men succeeded. Always wondering “what if I were good enough? What could I have done?”
Death before dishonor. JCH, you will never fully know the meaning of that creed. For you will die a thousand deaths, and I will only die but once.
BTW, you were clearly caught lying about living in Hawaii. Now, everyone knows you’re an unqualified liar. You have ZERO credibility. The best part is; I’m the one who destroyed you.
WASHOUT.
Guess what? I probably can’t remember how to correctly spell every place on the planet that I’ve been to. (Notice the proper use of a preposition at the end of the sentence.) [Wrong again, Hillary. The “to” is superfluous [“not needed” for those of you who are from the GBS Wing of the Democrat Party. Hillary, Your lack of attention to detail is not impressing.]
24, Wrong again, Grasshopper! Aloha from the 808 area code!
Not your day, is it Hillary?
Note Post 15, Any English majors on board to help GBS? His lack of attention to prepositions requires an umpire!!
GBS Update: He has been driven from HorsesAss like a Muslim from a Pork Bar-B-Q!!!!!
MIAMI BEACH, Fla. — Speaking just miles from the Port of Miami, U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said Friday she is pleased the Bush administration and a United Arab Emirates company have agreed to delay the company’s takeover of significant operations at six major American ports. But the New York Democrat and former first lady said she is still opposed to the deal and plans to introduce legislation
You can bet that her racial stereotyping is not playing well with Muslims in the swing state of Michigan. So much for being the world’s smartest woman.
Yeah, sure, sure JCH, whatever you say, little buddy.
808 area code. OK. Is it lunch time in the 808 area code?
It’s almost impossible to require that an initiative be determined to be constitutional before it can be filed because that can obviously be a question of lengthy debate. Such a pocess including appeals can take months or years. To shorten it would be to appoint someone as an initiative czar. If the constitutional issues were always clear, it wouldn’t be a problem but frequently new issues are raised that weren’t brought up before. That’s why cases go through several courts including the Court of Appeals before winding up at the State Supreme Court where at least 5 justices have to agree. And what if its your initiative that this constitutional initiative czar is considering? Wouldn’t you want to have a thorough discussion and debate before judgenment is passed. The constitutionality is something that can and sometimes is part of the political dialogue of an initiative campaign.
“For you will die a thousand deaths, and I will only die but once.” [GBS, You are NOT the Valiant! You are Hillary!!!!!!!!]
GBS, Try to concentrate on the details, and not when I eat lunch or dinner. I will guide you, Grasshopper!!!!
@ 30
You can bet Muslims taking control of our ports isn’t playing well in the red states.
GBS, Have you discovered who I am? I gave you my name? Remember? John Galt. Who am I?
Blog Bitch Liar.
I did concentrate on the details. That’s how you were busted yesterday.
Fool.
35.Are you racist?
GBS, You cannot be “The Valiant”. You are Hillary!
Hillary, Don’t bring a squirt gun to a gun fight!
JCH:
I’ve read all 1200 pages of Ayn’s novel. And your whole persona if fictional. You’re a hero in your own mind.
@ 38
No I’m no racists, I just know that selling our ports to a Muslim owned business in the middle of WWIII is a strategic military blunder on the part of George W. Bush.
Dumb ass.
41, Finally, GBS, You are learning!!! I am John Galt. You are one of those left behind. Like Cougar, Mr. X, Goldystein, and the other lib Democrats, you will learn to live without taxing others.
40.
Sorry, didn’t mean to squirt it in your eye. I’ll aim for the tonsils next time.
GBS, There is hope for you. I will show you the way.
The whole premise of Ayn Rands book is flawed. It avoids the one truth about the attainment of wealth. Not one person in the United States of America did it all by themselves.
Anyone who does do it on their own should not be taxed one penny by the United States government. I’ll stand behind that statement 100% and without qualifiers.
Dip shit.
@ 45
That would be like the blind leading the sighted.
No thank you.
In January, a third sweep revealed what prosecutors called a conspiracy in which state license examiners in Murfreesboro accepted bribes to provide illegal immigrants with driver’s licenses and certificates without testing.
Hedy Weinberg, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Tennessee, said suspending the program “endangers everyone traveling the roads in Tennessee.”
“The certificate program, while discriminatory to begin with, at least ensured that drivers were trained and had insurance,” Weinberg said. The ACLU had favored the full driver’s licenses. {Gee, another liberal Democrat Weinburgstein lawyer at the ACL Jew. Who would have thought?]
GBS, Reread “The Fountainhead” and “Atlas Shrugged” and report back!
“Anyone who does do it on their own should not be taxed one penny by the United States government. I’ll stand behind that statement 100% and without qualifiers.” [Hillary, The entire Democrat Party is vomiting, as the backbone of the libs is to “redistribute other’s wealth” to buy Democrat votes. Your statement would never be supported by Hillary, Fidel, Teddy, et al.]
JCH you fucktard. Mommy is calling. Time for your “See Clearly” exercises.
Armando Garcia Arroyo, the fugitive accused of the killing of a Los Angeles County sheriff’s deputy nearly four years ago, was arrested in the state of Jalisco, Mexico, on Thursday, according to Los Angeles County and Mexican authorities. Garcia is alleged to have killed Deputy David March at a traffic stop in Irwindale in April 2002 and has since been at large. [Just a fun loving Democrat Mexican being “disenfranched” by evil Bush! Blow away a cop, and vote Democrat!! It’s the liberal way!!]
vancouversucks, On your knees, boy!
The ‘truth in initiative’ laws are a good idea.
Perhaps we could also get higher-quality initiative passages by requiring 60% voter approval instead of >50%.
@ 49:
I’ll NEVER reread Atlas Shrugged full of bullshit) and I would only consider reading Fountain Head if I hadn’t slept in weeks and need some boring piece crap to put me to sleep.
@ 50:
Did you accumulate your “wealth” all by yourself?
Faced with new indications that the Los Angeles economy is heading in a perilous direction, the city’s workforce development board gathered together several dozen business and community leaders Thursday to look for ways to help. Los Angeles has numerous economic challenges, including a growing underground economy, a large and poorly educated immigrant workforce, and a widening gap between high-wage and low-wage jobs, according to findings of the city-commissioned Los Angeles Economy Project.
LA: The Third-world Northern Capital of Mexico. Totally run by Democrats. The private sector is heading out the door. And they think a more government will help. More proof of a third-world country.
@ 51:
“Fucktard” LMAO. Thank you.
56..No one gave me shit. Grew up in “Coal Town”, PA, Noone who lived in the old, dirty western PA coal town had any money. Military was a way out! We may have common ground here.
@ 59:
It’s not what I asked you. Did you gain your wealt entirely on your own?
Yes or No.
What’s so hard about that?
Swallow every drop, vancouversucks! Is there a Mrs. vancouversucks to join us in a threesome?
60, Yes…..The risk, and the rewards are and were mine alone. Total liability was and is located at JCH.
Sudanese man has been forced to take a goat as his “wife”, after he was caught having sex with the animal. The goat’s owner, Mr Alifi, said he surprised the man with his goat and took him to a council of elders.
This explains how Bill ended up with Hillary.
@ 63:
This is the fatal flaw with Atlas Shrugged.
You did NOT do the following things:
Educate a workforce K-12 for a pool of skilled workers.
Build the roads, highways and airports that transport goods and services.
Regulate commerce between states and countries.
Provide a military to protect your vital interests around the globe and provide peace and stability at home.
Arrange for police, fire and medical services.
A court system to settle disputes, peacefully.
And, a whole laundry list of other things that make a successful, regulated capitalist society operate.
It was bought and paid by others before you. You made the most of services you didn’t create. Therefore, you owe more in TAXES than someone else who didn’t benefit as much as you did. That provides opportunity and the posterity for future generations of American.
Your view breaks the cycle of successful capitalism and goes against the progressive tax system envisioned by this country’s first millionaire — Benjamin Franklin.
The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Not the money, but the greed and that is the flaw of you and conservatives who think they earned everything.
Clearly you did not. You benefited from the TAXES of previous generations and you want to skip out on the next generation.
64 – That’s one for the ages. Well stated. Thanks GBS!
40% of my income over the last 20 years went to taxes. Is that enough? Is it ever enough? When you demand more, I quit. Deal with that, Karl Marx.
Marxism: “progressive Democart policy”
When “guvment” takes 40-50% of my income in taxes, and “redistributes” these funds to those who vote Democrat, am I not a 40-50% slave to the “plantation of “guvment”? What if I quit? What if 50 million other taxpayers “quit”? What will you lib parasits do then?
The Seattle City Initiatives are initiatives to the Seattle City Council, which if they do not act on them eventually gets to the voters. Also, they can vote to enact the initiative immediately, or send it to the voters immediately. The City Attourney wanted to get the option of it going directly to the voters with more signatures, but it did not happen.
I sign initiatives, and am very careful. I signed Refferendum 55, because I thought that the voters had spoken twice on Charter Schools, and they should have a third time. I try to avoid paid gatherers. I was waiting for a bus in Downtown Seattle once and a signature gatherer came up to me, at the bus stop, trying to get me to sign an initiative to hurt Metro even more by going after what I-695 did not take. Tried a sob story of how people are suffering. I pulled out my bus pass and showed it. She ran off, upset I did not sign. There is no rule saying I have to sign if they shove that clipboard at me. She had initiative petitions for other initiatives, on the same clipboard!
GBS, I paid the taxes. I took the risks. I created jobs for others. I survived the legal challenges. What right do you have to reap 40% of my rewards? You green eyed Democrats are just lazy Marxists.
ON TOPIC PLEASE…. Namely you Myron the fuck troll. Fuck you and your lack of wanting to pay your fair share. If more of you fucking selfish republicans would get in line with accoutability vs. just not paying any taxes, we would not be on our way to becoming a third world country. Two words for your neo-con bullshit: EAT SHIT.
JCH:
It must suck to realize your view of taxation will eventually undermine the financial foundation of these United States of America, and in the end, accomplish the goals of our enemies without them doing one single thing.
Think about that the next time you well up with pride and patriotism. Our modern day regulated capitalism was conceived and implemented by Liberal politicians and union workers, not multi-national corporations who want to race to the low-price basement. What you are preaching is laizes faire capitalism, it’s time has come and gone with the Robber Barons.
We are as prosperous today because of Liberals, Unions and people with progressive social values.
You conservatives buy into the hype of Wal-Mart and GM who blame their financial woes on the high cost of “labor” and benefits. Why is is Toyota can move into the heartland of America and build cars here, employ Americans, pay union scale wages and benefits and still make a profit where GM can’t? It ain’t because of “union labor.”
Here’s is the danger of multi-national corporations and laizes faire capitalism; the Toyota’s of the world make a profit here in America, where do you think those profits go? Out of the country, forever. Except to loan it back to us because Republicans are squandering/borrowing $ 2 BILLION dollars per day — that’s $1.3 million tax payer dollars per minute. What about the interest future generations will HAVE to pay? We paid $160 BILLION dollars in interest alone on Ronald Regan’s debt. Which is a fraction of what George W. Bush and the Republicans are running up today.
With Clinton we had a “pay as you go government.” Clinton actually reduced our deficit, remember? No that’s wrong, he actually created a surplus and our economic machine was never better. You know it’s true.
Seriously, JCH, quit reading a book published in 1957 and look at the reality of today.
Conservatism = corruption not prosperity.
Showing the bus pass was just a spur of the moment thing but I was thinking that maybe the gatherer would think that there were other people suffering, such as bus riders who had service eliminated, and it was not restored until the voters approved a sales tax hike the same time they voted I-745 down.
Also, other initiatives that I have signed, were the Primary Initiative(I did not like how Locke Line-Item Vetoed the primary that parties could not control), and the Seattle City COuncil District Plan. It came close to passing! There is another City CHarter Amendment that circulates from time to time, that would have all 9 elected at once, using Choice Voting. Have not seen a petitioner for that one yet. They are probably using volunteers!
@ 68:
What if 50 million other taxpayers “quit”? What will you lib parasits do then?
Really, is fear your best arguement?
Go ahead and quit, JCH. Give up all your wealth so you don’t have to pay 40% in taxes. How many other millionaires and billionaires do you think will actually follow your example and live a life of poverty just you so you won’t have to pay taxes.
Grow up.
71, Robo……Is that you, Karl Marx???? Sorry, piss ant. You will get NO more from me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go ahead and quit, JCH. Give up all your wealth so you don’t have to pay 40% in taxes. How many other millionaires and billionaires do you think will actually follow your example and live a life of poverty just you so you won’t have to pay taxes.
Grow up.
Comment by GBS— 2/24/06 @ 1:25 pm [The first million is the toughest. I can live off the income and capital gains. The rest is gravy, and you will get none!]
74. Grow up? Classic! I no longer employ others, and I no longer earn the high six figures that “guvment” loves to audit and tax. I will be followed by millions of other “John Galts”, and you libs will starve and bitch and complain and scream and declare me “racist and evil” and you “victims”. Altas has Shrugged.
I-330 and I-335 were both Initiatives to the Legislature, and both qualified. I think it could have been because both were on the same topic, that people who already signed 330 thought 336 was a refile by the same people, so they were making sure the one they originally signed got onto the ballot. This created one of the few problems with the Initiative to the Legislature, forcing the legislature to punt it to the voters. If they approved the Doctor’s Initiative and not the Lawyer’s Initiative, the latter would have automatically gone to the ballot. The only way the Initiative to the Legislature cannot go to the ballot, is if they actually approve it, and even then, concerned voters can file a refferndum. It is one of the reasons I still think the Initiative to the Legislature should be emphasized, make it easier to get onto the ballot.
Plus, the filing fee, there is a point there. $5 in 1912 was a lot of money, it still was in the early 1960s. The fee should have been adjusted for inflation.
Please stop feeding the troll.
“Personally, I don’t share Prof. Locke’s faith in the initiative system”
Give it up, Goldy! You’re an eastern transplant, and you don’t understand western populism. Washingtonians will never let go of their beloved initiative process. There’s way too much history and popular sentiment behind it. That’s like asking us to give our Columbia River water to California.
Roboman @ 71:
You are correct. And I apologize for being way off topic and I will stop doing so for today.
In my defense, I’ve been priming this pump for some time now and I knew eventually I would drag JCH into this trap.
I’ve made my case for regulated capitalism, why it works, who implemented it and followed to it’s logical conclusion of not following it (i.e. all rich people giving up their wealth in order to not pay taxes.)
JCH, cannot refute any point with intellectual honesty. In fact, the debate is no longer about intellectual honesty it’s about moral dishonesty.
Conservatives have long since been on the wrong side of the honesty issue. I will refrain from the long list of conservatives who are either going to prison, facing criminal charges, indicted, or under investigation to prove my point.
I close with one of my favorite quotes from an Original Democrat. It’ sums up all the problems we face today created by conservatives:
“The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest. Only aim to do your duty, and mankind will give you credit where you fail.
~Thomas Jefferson, A Summary View of the Rights of British America.
If only conservatives held to this Democrats belief in how politicians should conduct themselves.
That said, there’s a place for reasonable reforms of the initiative process.
GBS [Karl Marx] writes: “We are as prosperous today because of Liberals, Unions and people with progressive social values.” [Quite the opposite! These are the Democrat parasites of capitalism. You produce nothing, and demand to share in the rewards of others without taking any risks. Ticks, leeches, and fleas: you suck the financial life blood from producers. Soon, millions of “producers” will steer clear of you “progressives”, and you will scream that you are “victims”. Atlas has Shrugged.]
However, if the RepubliCons succeed in obstructing initiative reforms, I’m gonna file an initiative to have Ann Coulter declared a threat to our national security and confined to a mental institution to protect the public’s safety.
“Protest March of the Marxist Lemmings”, starring Karl Marx and GBS. March on, boys!! Yes, you are all “victims”, and those evil producers aren’t paying enough in taxes!! Solution: Raise the taxes on income over 100 grand to 100%. Then when the Republicans all leave, you can tax each other!
“Tim Eyman files dozens of initiatives a year, and while each one costs taxpayers thousands of dollars to process, Timmy only pays a $5.00 filing fee. … The Sec. of State should be able to charge a reasonable fee – say, $150.00 ….”
Why not charge actual cost? If it costs the Sec. of State $3,000 to process an initiative, the filer should be charged $3,000. RepubliCons should like this idea, because they won’t have to pay taxes to process someone else’s initiative. And — it’ll eliminate government waste, fraud, and abuse.
In fact, this is one of those very rare times when RepubliCon charges of “waste, fraud, and abuse” are actually true.
To clarify, the “waste, fraud, and abuse” is not being committed by the SoS, but by Tim Eyman and EFF.
JCH:
Let’s continue this on another thread. If hurling insults is all you have left in your arsenal, I will have to decline.
Do you have facts and figues handy, Mr. Galt?
JaundicedCoatHanger @ 68…ummmmm…well I guess we would just have to place you and the other 49,999,999 wingnuts in the luxury sweets at the new ‘concentration’ camps that your dearest Haliburton is currently building. You might still have the chance to live with all of your ‘idols’. Readers…JCH is the poster boy ‘against’ incest (brother/sister marriage) and home schooling.
The problem with people who quote Ayn Rand is the same problem with people who quote Nitcheze, they take silly little ideas that don’t work in the real world and try to make a religion out of it.
The best thing to do with them is to laugh at them. If that is the height of their “intellectual” pursuits, they really aren’t capable of deep thought. Any one with any intellectual prowess soon tires of these simplicity and moves on to deeper, more challenging things.
Of course, with Just another Chicken Hawk reading Rand, like a dog walking on his hind legs, you are not impressed that he does it well, but that he has the ability to read at all.
11
“It only took four posts this morning before JCH went from being a stupid rethug nazi to a stupid racist rethug nazi. I guess that’s progress. Comment by Mr. X— 2/24/06 @ 10:32 am”
Looks more like retrogression.
12
“Goldy, You should get down on your knees and thank Tim Eyman. let’s face it, without Eyman, you have no identity. Comment by Momus— 2/24/06 @ 10:43 am”
That’s like saying Dave Reichert should thank Gary Ridgeway for his successful police career. So typical of twisted wingnut thinking.
What we really need is a national initiative so voters could overturn acts of Congress — e.g., Sen. Ted Steven’s bridge to nowhere — or force Congress to enact laws the people want — e.g., enforcement of drug safety laws. Better yet — how about impeachment of a president and vice president by popular initiative? If a 60% “yes” vote is good enough to pass a school levy, then a 60% “yes” vote should be good enough to get rid of a failed president/vice president.
Except, a simple majority of 50% + 1 vote should be sufficient to pass a national initiative declaring Ann Coulter a Nazi.
23
“rquire that only registered Washington voters could collect signatures”
Probably an unconstitutional restraint on free speech.
35
“You can bet Muslims taking control of our ports isn’t playing well in the red states. Comment by GBS— 2/24/06 @ 11:56 am”
It isn’t playing well in the blue states, either. This time the untalented Bush administration has managed to piss off EVERYBODY.
36
“GBS, Have you discovered who I am? I gave you my name? Remember? John Galt. Who am I? Comment by REV Jesse [JCH] Jackson— 2/24/06 @ 11:57 am”
A figment of your schizophrenic imagination.
40
“Hillary, Don’t bring a squirt gun to a gun fight! Comment by REV Jesse [JCH] Jackson— 2/24/06 @ 12:00 pm”
Who’s got a “gun?” Not you — you’ve been neutered. All you’ve got is a teeny little stump where your “gun” used to be.
Amen RR @ 94
49, 55, et al.
Ayn Rand is considered a great writer only by the same people who consider “Mein Kampf” a great book.
#66 40% of Nothing is still nothing.
GBS @ 60
Gee, GBS, don’t be so hard on Fucktart — he answered your question. To wit:
“Noone who lived in the old, dirty western PA coal town had any money. Military was a way out! We may have common ground here. Comment by Myron [JCH] Silverstein, ESQ— 2/24/06 @ 12:40 pm”
In other words, he couldn’t make a living in the private sector, so he joined the military and lived on government paychecks provided by taxpayers.
And after washing out of the military, has spent the rest of his miserable failed life dissing people who live on government paychecks provided by taxpayers.
62
“60, Yes…..The risk, and the rewards are and were mine alone. Total liability was and is located at JCH. Comment by Myron [JCH] Silverstein, ESQ— 2/24/06 @ 12:43 pm”
If you’re talking about investing — not really. Every penny you ever made from investing was provided to you by the workers of the companies you invested in, who — unlike you — produced something.
66
“40% of my income over the last 20 years went to taxes. Is that enough? Is it ever enough? When you demand more, I quit. Deal with that, Karl Marx. Comment by Myron [JCH] Silverstein, ESQ— 2/24/06 @ 1:06 pm”
40% is NOT enough to pay for the spending of the wingnut government you and your fellow rightwing idiots elected, as demonstrated by the fact your government is running huge deficits for as far ahead as the eye can see.
If you want to pay less taxes, cut SPENDING, starting with the expensive wingnut-sponsored graf, corruption, and warmongering in D.C.
Why do you think you can spend a trillion dollars on a war and CUT taxes at the same time?
@ 97
It isn’t playing well in the blue states, either. This time the untalented Bush administration has managed to piss off EVERYBODY.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 2/24/06 @ 2:06 pm
Yeah, but the blue states didn’t aren’t going to turn into red states and it’s unlikely Joe Sixpack is going to suckle up to the teat of politicians who continue to undermine our national security.
GBS and JCH – What’s the story on these “Urinary Olympics” you two have got going here? JCH was in the Navy and wahsed out of flight school. That’s easy to do: I went throug AF pilot training and served a tour as a T-37 instructor later on. It’s easy to wash a kid out of pilot training. I helped a few find the door myself.
GBS was a Navy seal, and apparently does not like JCH one bit. But, other than that, what’s the reason for all the back-and-forth verbal sparring?
Reply to 108
It might have something to do with the propensity of wingnuts like JCH to falsely assert they are more patriotic than people with liberal political views.
108, Libertarian, I never attended flight school. Hence, I never “washed out”. All a figment of GBS’s vivid “imagination”. All my training was done in Newport, RI and Coronado, Ca, as well as the old Philadelphia Ship Yard. Then, three WESTPACs of 6 monthe each , one ten month IO cruise, and a tour in Coronado at the NAB. Four years at sea, and two ashore.
Libertarian @ 108:
Urinary Olympics, that’s pretty funny. I’ll consider myself the “Gold Medal” winner.
Basically it comes down to this: JCH comes on the blog and spouts a lot of lies and bull shit and in general thinks he’s some big bully.
I for one cannot stand conservatives who thinks they are the only ones who have defended this nation, pay TAXES, are productive, abide by laws, perform civic duties, believe in God, and above all else have a higher moral clarity than Liberals. All the while we are witnessing the undoing of America by the Worst President Ever, and Bush is completely going unchecked by the Congress. This is the ‘smell test’ if Clinton did just one thing Bush has done, the Congress would have had a full blown investigation by now with “sworn testimony,” and probably would have started articles of impeachment.
But, because Bush is a Republican they swear their allegiance to party above the Constitution. That is the first step towards destroying democracy and building a dictatorship. JCH and is ilk support this form of government. I do not.
So I make it my personal mission to ferret out these liars, draw them into verbal battles – usually personal- get them all fired up, because you can’t think as clearly when you’re angry, which, when you’re lying you’re more likely to slip up, and then I set the trap for them that they can’t get out of.
In JCH’s case it was the Ayn Rand references he was making some time a go. I knew if I could get him to make the false claim that he EARNED everything I could unleash the trap and expose one of the major flaws in Free Lunch Conservatism – avoid paying your FAIR share of taxes.
“FAIR share of taxes.” [Karl Marx, Hillary, Fidel, and GBS] Good company!!!
“Fair share of Taxes”: Always more! Never enough! Tax until the John Galts just………leave! Classic liberal Democrat “progressive” economics!
My reference: “Free To Choose” and “Capitalism and Freedom” by Dr. Milton Friedman……… GBS’s reference: “Communism Manifesto, by Karl Marx
“So I make it my personal mission to ferret out these liars, draw them into verbal battles – usually personal- get them all fired up, because you can’t think as clearly when you’re angry, which, when you’re lying you’re more likely to slip up, and then I set the trap for them that they can’t get out of.” [Just like you trapped that Marine officer and you ended up a SHITBIRD E3. Yes, you trapped him all right!!]
Well, another day another conservative “splashed.”
(That’s fighter pilot talk for shooting down the enemy, not that JCH would know that.)
I’m considering this P.O.E.T.S. day, Push Off Early Tomorrow’s Saturday and getting a head start on the weekend.
Enjoy your weekend, my America lovin’ Liberal friends who are true patriots and defenders of freedom and liberty.
To the rest of you right-wing, nut-jobs, please start believing what your own eyes and ears are telling you — Conservative political leaders have created a Culture of Corruption that is destroying America from the inside out.
PS: Put down the Ayn Rand novels, turn off Fox News and stop listening to conservative talk radio — they’re poisoning your minds.
“All money belongs to the “guvment”. Maybe we’ll let you keep some of what you earn.” [Hillary and GBS]
Roger Rabbit is really three guys typing all at the same time. I am sure of this. But one of the three did have a good idea. Initiatives should take a super majority to pass. The bar should be high whenever you seek to bypass the elected officials who are the foundation of our democracy.
The bar should be high whenever you seek to bypass the elected officials who are the foundation of our democracy. [I thought the people were the foundation of our democracy. Well, fuck me!]
“UAE gave $1 million to Bush library
“By WENDY BENJAMINSON
“Associated Press
“A sheik from the United Arab Emirates contributed at least $1 million
to the Bush Library Foundation, which established the George Bush
Presidential Library at Texas A&M University in College Station.
“The UAE owns Dubai Port Co., which is taking operations from
London-based Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co., which
operates six U.S. ports. A political uproar has ensued over the deal,
which the White House approved without congressional oversight.
“The donations were made in the early 1990s for the library, which
houses the papers of former President George Bush, the current
president’s father.
“The list of donors names Sheik Zayed Bin Sultan al Nahyan and the
people of the United Arab Emirates as one donor in the $1 million or
more category.
…”
Brought to you by the HoustonChronicle.com
111
“they swear their allegiance to party above the Constitution”
It would be more accurate to say they swear their allegiance to ideology above party or Constitution. They will support the GOP only if the GOP pushes “the cause.” They will turn their backs on a moderate Republican as quickly as the Mafia disowns a gangster who decides to cooperate with the FBI. Implementing their fascist agenda is their holy grail, and everything else — the Constitution, our democracy, our rights, the lives of our soldiers, the prosperity and health of our citizens — is subordinate to “the cause.”
And, of course, truth was the first casualty of the rightwing onslaught.
118
Roger Rabbit is one bunny with four paws, only two of which can type at any given time. Although I’m pretty sure if I practiced for a while, I could type with my hind feet while doing paw stands on my front feet.*
* Memo to the biologically ignorant: Rabbits do not have “arms” or “hands.” However, rabbits do have cute fluffy cottontails that look like marshmallows, and you can lick mine any time you want to! For a good time, call 1-800-RRABBIT. Or I can set you up with one of my goat friends, if you prefer.
“108, Libertarian, I never attended flight school. Hence, I never “washed out”. All a figment of GBS’s vivid “imagination”. All my training was done in Newport, RI and Coronado, Ca, as well as the old Philadelphia Ship Yard. Then, three WESTPACs of 6 monthe each , one ten month IO cruise, and a tour in Coronado at the NAB. Four years at sea, and two ashore.
Comment by Myron [JCH] Silverstein, ESQ— 2/24/06 @ 3:04 pm
WHAT A FUCKING LIAR!!!!!!!!!
Read ’em and weep.
JCH your are OFFICIALLY exposed as the liar that you are, in your own words. I just could not let your LIE go without responding.
I provide for the court of public opinion JCH in his own words. Please feel free to click the link and read the entire thread entry for yourself, but I’ve pasted the lies for your review.
Conservatives = LIARS.
http://www.horsesass.org/index.php?p=1332
@ 123
JCH: Are you saying GWB served in combat then? Just askin’
Comment by windie — 1/24/06 @ 3:59 pm [No, but, Windie, have YOU ever “buckled up” in a Mach 2 F-106? Not for pussies. I washed out of Naval Air [bad GI] and served Surface Line [1110]. Flying [and training] in military jets are not for the Bill Clintons of the world.]
Comment by JCH — 1/24/06 @ 4:37 pm
@ 125
FLY NAVY
DA WO
Comment by YO — 1/24/06 @ 3:59 pm [YO, I’m sure you are correct and I was mistaken. Thanks for the help. Anyone who flies has my respect. I was not up to the stress. Not many are. JCH, LT, USN [1110, 76-84]]
Comment by JCH — 1/24/06 @ 4:44 pm
@ 152
JCH:
I served a short stint on the “mini-twat” USS Manitowoc County LST 1180. Hated the Marines, they seemed to have nothing to do but PT and wait in line for chow. The bastards.
Comment by GBS — 1/24/06 @ 5:43 pm [True, but once ashore, they are the best. I couldn’t do what they do. Did you know Hillary said she tried to join the Marines? Roger Rabbit believes her!! He believes anyone who will ensure his “guvment” check comes every month.]
Comment by JCH — 1/24/06 @ 6:10 pm
The last little dig there is just to back up what I was saying all along, JCH admitted that the fucking Jar Heads were better than him.
NO self respecting sailor makes a fucking statement like that.
Fuck You, JCH, Buh-Bye.
Hey, it’s almost “Dinner Time” in Hawaii, isn’t it!!
You lying fucking piece of dog shit. NOW I KNOW you didn’t serve in the Navy you are a fucking liar. You are not rich you live in a double wide in Woodinville. The only way you got to Penn State was being a fucking janitor. And, you’re poor.
You piece of shit.
Come back under a new pen name, you’ve soilded your “good” name.
Dick suck.
JCH do you wipe your ass with that mouth?
Way GBS.
Thanks Libertarian for getting JCH to open up after he thought I left the blog. What a fucking, nimrod, dumb ass, typical lying, fucking piece of shit Republican, JCH turned out to BE.
You fucking scumbag Republicans are all a like, every single one of you lying cock suckers.
You unpatriotic lying pieces of terrorist loving dog shits.
BAMMMMM
Another conservative caught lying.
Fuck You “LT” = Lost Testicles.
Tell us, Clarice, tell us your story of, how did you say it? Oh, yes let me copy and past your words: “I washed out of Naval Air [bad GI] and served Surface Line”
Tell us, how did your mother and father take the news of being a WASHOUT?
Did they fail to teach you right from wrong, JCH? Did they forget to teach you that you shouldn’t lie?
Is that your failure? Was it your parent’s fault?
Yes, Clarice, do tell.
Cock sucker.
No, but, Windie, have YOU ever “buckled up” in a Mach 2 F-106? Not for pussies.
+
I believe GWB was in the Texas ANG to fly F-102s, not F-106s. Similar to F-106s, but an ealier aircraft. It’s a minor point.
Generally us Regular AF fliers regarded the ANG and AF Reserves as a (then) “Gentlemen’s Flying Club.” Pretty good duty if you could get it!
Well, the good news is we won’t have to see the likes of JCH around here any more.
Another liar bites the dust.
MTR and JCH neighbors at the trailer park in Woodinville.
Losers.
Atlas Shrugged, huh?
Fucking idiot.
One last parting shot:
Aloha
In Hawaiian it’s a greeting that means “hello” or “good bye.”
It also means “I’m a lying piece of shit Republican who never served my country, much like George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, although I pretend that I did. I’m blessed to live in this prosperous country because of honest, hard working Liberals, Union Workers, Democrats, and Social Progressives have made it great. I see myself as a worthless piece of crap, who believes every lie the RNC, Fox News, and Rush Limbaugh tell me because I have ZERO self esteem. I hate those who have built so much and are willing to help everyone else around them share in a higher standard of living. It goes against my thinking that those who achieve should horde it all for themselves. I would if I actually achieved wealth in my life time. In the end, I vote against my own best interests because I believe the fear mongering that is spread world-wide by Republicans. I believe them when they say they’ll protect me and not those sissy democrats. Although, deep in my heart of hearts, I know the opposite is true. Oh, why didn’t my parents teach me better?”
One small word, a world of meaning.
In this case Atlas didn’t shrug, he shat.
And on the ground lay MTR and JCH.
RR @ 120
Re: UAE
Here’s a quote from John Snow, Treasury Sec’y
“If there was a failure, we failed to recognize there might be a public reaction”
No shit !!!!!!
When will these assholes get a clue?
It’s like getting foxes to guard the hen house.
Are we the only ones that see that these idiots
are total morons?
“GBS Update: He has been driven from HorsesAss like a Muslim from a Pork Bar-B-Q!!!!!
Comment by REV Jesse [JCH] Jackson— 2/24/06 @ 11:49 am
Ironic, isn’t it?
Don’t the trolls realize that their cant and rhetoric are not reflective of reality at all? Red China is the newest and most vigorous capitalist society on the horizon. Need I remind you that China is a communist ideocracy.
Capitalism and Democracy are not synonymous and never were. The fact that a small self-appointed money aristocracy has convinced you trolls that your survival depends on their comfort just underlines the fact of what credulous nincompoops you righties are.
Donnageddon,
I’m glad you’re here. Time for a changing of the guard. I’m really leaving for the weekend this time. I know you appreicate a conservative getting the living shit bashed out of them just as much as I do. If not more.
You’re turn. Fight the good fight.
Bravo GBS. Job well done! Have a great weekend. Ciao
Rabbit # 92,
I meant that it was progress that it took that many posts for him to show his true racist colors – he usually gets there on the first post.
on second thought, maybe jch was for Juiced up Coke Head
Ya wanna know why we need the initiative process? Two words…. Ron Sims.
As long as we have arrogant elitist asshole jerks in positions of power, The People need a mechanism to put people like him in his place.
Remember how this started… with that fucking baseball stadium and the “emergency”. When politicians start acting responsibily, then initiatives won’t be needed, but until then we have a gun at their heads.
Wow,
“fucktard”…I think that term needs to be enshrined in a literary hall of fame.
Urinary olympics was good, too.
JCH do you wipe your ass with that mouth?
Damn, that is funny stuff…
This is great… Rakeface and Radon here at the same time. So jus for old time’s sake:
…it’s just that the reality is vaginas make us men .
Comment by GBS— 12/29/05 @ 5:44 pm
…vaginas do indeed make us men.
Comment by Donnageddon— 12/29/05 @ 5:55 pm
and for all of our wingNUT and republiCON trolls, how do you feel now? In the past few days it has come to light that our military had Bin Laden in their sights and were waiting for the go ahead in Tora Bora 1999…but the powers to be would not give the go ahead because the UAE Royal Jet was there and Bin Laden was meeting with someone from the Royal Family of UAE. And now YOUR dear friend, OBL has taken credit for the terrorist strike in Saudi that has immediately pushed futures up again. What a small world isn’t it? Your president and your idols have really screwed up the entire world. And our same bunch of Trollheads don’t see anything wrong with selling our nations ports (and security) to the same UAE Royal Family! I have no idea how this great country helped in the creation of your warped minds.
REV @138
Red China is the newest and most vigorous capitalist society on the horizon.
I would say that China needs something to make up for their future, and capitalism is the only thing that will help alleviate their coming plight: 2050 will be a bad year for China.
Naturally, when one person is working to support 7, the earnings will be diluted significantly. So don’t mistake a vigorous economy as a success for their political theories.
Need I remind you that China is a communist ideocracy.
No, they are an oligarchy that pays lip service to communistic ideas, but actually run the nation as their personal fiefdom. They have control over the daily lives of their citizenry including thought and speech. I’d love to see you go there and attempt to say anything about the country that has a negative connotation referencing their society. You would then find out whether or not it is true they charge the prisoners’ families for their stay…
sorry, link
Cougar – Since you are apparently an expert on port operations and know the dangers… can you explain how port operations and security actually work? Can you explain who does what and what the specific dangers are? Also, if you’re against UAE running ports, can you indicate if you’re engaging in “profiling”. And if you are “profiling” can you justify it? Geez, I sure hope yer not some kind of racist…
Don’t let the rake hit you in the face…
Cougar @146
And your 1999 Tora Bora reference has a connection to our current Administration how?
And our same bunch of Trollheads don’t see anything wrong with selling our nations ports (and security) to the same UAE Royal Family.
The only thing missing from your rant @146 is “raghead”…
So, xenophobic rants aside, how will this have any effect on US port security? Do you know?
Since you are so concerned about this, I must assume you like the idea of Bush wiretapping US calls that have a terrorist connection?
S H O U L D G O L D Y F I L E
They must pay H. Locke a lot for this stuff – hot air.
Can’t change anything. It works.
Goldy, go file one to keep the present voting system. The media will love it — rematch of sorts with better content.
RR, you do have giant balls. Telling Goldy that folks from the E A S T do not comprhend the nuances, ballsy.
Goldy, if you file you will get as much media punch as the Evergreen people. Cheap state wide stories.
Eyeman has a lot of jealous want to bees — buzz, buzz.
How can you tell a busines how to compensate employees? Pay garbage truck drivers by the load? Paid sig. gathering is legal, high court approved. End of debate.
Zempke, thank for the most cogent posts. If I remember – you have been a progressive activist for a few years. Call Washington Won’t Discriminate for a job.
Can we do a Refenerdum to divest eastern Washington and force Idaho to annex ?
We could become like a W. Coast Latvia ……
130
“Generally us Regular AF fliers regarded the ANG and AF Reserves as a (then) “Gentlemen’s Flying Club.” Pretty good duty if you could get it! Comment by Libertarian— 2/24/06 @ 4:13 pm”
It beat hell out of taking ground fire over the Mekong or getting shot down over North Vietnam.
Sorry, my bad, I guess not ‘hitting’ OBL in 98-99 was Clinton’s only real mistake! And speaking about rakes MTR, I was out to buy on the other day from a local ACE store, funny thing, they told me a nutcase came in and bought all of their stock and his last words were….”now that is taken care of, time for Aurora Avenue”
125
“True, but once ashore, they are the best. I couldn’t do what they do.”
The Marines are infantry, which is not highly skilled work. The most important skill involved is a willingness to get shot at because you don’t know any better. But yeah, I have to agree that when you need cannon fodder, dumb kids willing to throw themselves at the enemy are value and deserve our respect. Since they’re willing to do it, I’m willing to pay taxes for their funerals. It seems like a fair trade, and then some.
erratum
should read “are valuable”
I remember a conversation I had with a young Marine while waiting for a PX to open in Vietnam. He must have lied about his age to get in, because he didn’t look like he was in the market yet for razor blades or shaving cream. The conversation went like this:
ME: Just out of curiosity, why did you join the Marines?
MARINE: Because my old man didn’t want me to.
ME: So … what do you think of the Marines?
MARINE: I should’ve listened to my old man.
marks: I realize that you are trying to be reasonable and not a dickhead like the righty trolls, but I’ve never seen anyone who so consistently misses the point as widely as you do!
The point is not that red china adopting capitalism is a vindication of red china’s politics. The point is that capitalism is very comfortable with a freedom crushing political system.
The point: The existence of capitalism is not related to the existence of political freedom. Totalitarianism and capitalism co-exist quite nicely. This point, marks, you seem incapable of seeing!
Postscript: The youngest Marine killed in Vietnam was a black kid who was 15 years old at the time of his death. http://www.virtualwall.org/db/BullockDx01a.htm
157
The German industrialists did quite well under Hitler and Nazism.
Cougar @153
Sorry, my bad, I guess not ‘hitting’ OBL in 98-99 was Clinton’s only real mistake!
I’m sure there were others, but none of them were as bad as that. He was the best president in my lifetime that I never voted for (okay, that was rather backhanded, but true nonetheless).
I had the pleasure of visiting Jebel Ali near Dubai, UAE several times, as well as Abu Dhabi. The port at Jebel Ali is the largest port in the Mideast, and it is well run because the senior ownership hires people who know how to do it. They are interested in making a profit. They would not make a profit if people keep getting blown up.
Where we are really screwing the pooch is how we do port security. It is all on us, not them…
141
“I meant that it was progress that it took that many posts for him to show his true racist colors – he usually gets there on the first post.”
JCH frequently tries to conceal his racist leanings, but reminiscent of Dr. Strangelove, after 2 or 3 posts he can’t keep his fingers from typing a racist remark.
143
“Ya wanna know why we need the initiative process? Two words…. Ron Sims. … The People need a mechanism to put people like him in his place.”
The People have such a mechanism — it’s called “election” and Sims won his last one by a 16-point margin. Loooooooooooooooser.
MTR is a looooooooooooooser. He doesn’t pay his gambling debts either.
MTR’s party is a looooooooooooooooooooser. MTR’s candidates are loooooooooooooooooosers. MTR is a looooooooooooooooooooooser.
Hey MTR how does it feel to be a loooooooooooooooooooooooooser?
Reverend @157
And I thought the lasik would take care of that!
I am sorry for not taking the point you intended. So, at what point do I become irretrievably dense, as in becoming a walking singularity? Is that sucking sound permanent?
Anyway, I am sure any economic system can be interchanged with nearly any political system. But the substitution will irrevocably alter the political system itself. Be it socialism, communism, representative democracy (um, that is us now), dictatorial nepotism…
re 160: What if one of the people they hire is not interested in making a profit but does want to blow up part of America for the glory of Allah.
Logic and making a profit are not the only things that motivate people. If that happened ( inadvertently hiring a well qualified jihadist )would you really be thinking: “I never foresaw this because this kind of behavior is not consistent with making a profit! It’s really bad for business!
Remember: If everything is reduced to what the action is worth in terms of dollars, all women would be whores. But they aren’t. There are values larger than a buck!
“All money belongs to the “guvment”. Maybe we’ll let you keep some of what you earn.” [Hillary and GBS]
Comment by Myron [JCH] Silverstein, ESQ— 2/24/06 @ 3:18 pm
Seems fair to me. After all, “we” enabled “you” to “earn” it. It is not “yours” unless you can convince me you can take it with you.
Your position is akin to claiming that feudal lords “created wealth”, an argument having wide currency in ruling circles up till, say, 1740 or so.
Later, Lt. jg fuckwad.
The point is not that red china adopting capitalism is a vindication of red china’s politics. The point is that capitalism is very comfortable with a freedom crushing political system.
Point well taken reverend. Remember all the right wing loon caterwalling about the Chinese government buying Texaco? But when a reactionary middle east government buys a lucrative contract regarding our ports–why nary a peep from that blow dried Sean Hannity or that pharma-cyst Limbaugh guy.
And perhaps our free market worshipping trollitariat can explain why thay have suddenly so fallen in love with a GOVERNMENT owned enterprise? They’ve been telling us for 100 years that government=market inefficiency. Why all of a sudden the change of heart?
Keep up the good work, rev.
@167: The terrorist employee is simply an externality. Free marketeers assume externalities away. Therefore, free market “principles” do not apply.
This is a typical marketeer trick–if you don’t like the outcome, simply assume, assume, assume……eventually you will get the optimun outcome you so ferverently “predicted”.
Ain’t economics fun?
Hey Coug – Answer the fucking question you racist…
Mark The Reddick said “Don’t let the rake hit you in the face…”
That is kind advice, Cougar. MTR has stepped on so many rakes he flinches with every step he takes.
Comment by Mark The Redneck— 12/15/05 @ 6:27 pm
MTR tries to sound real tough. But he’s just a pussy cat. Except for the cat part.
MTR, you paid off your bet with Goldy yet?
Just answer the fucking question..
“It shouldn’t have happened, it never should have happened,” Kean said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.
The quicker the Bush administration can get out of the deal, the better, he said. “There’s no question that two of the 9/11 hijackers came from there and money was laundered through there,”
http://www.upi.com/SecurityTer.....1657-4981r
Yeah, Bush is real concerned about our security.
http://www.upi.com/SecurityTer.....1657-4981r
Oh, yeah, lets have the GOVENRMENT of U.A.E be in control of 21 of our US ports.
Bush is a traitor, and MTR supports him.
Therefore, MTR is a traitor, a rake addled zombie, and a completely useless tool.
Reverend @167
re 160: What if one of the people they hire is not interested in making a profit but does want to blow up part of America for the glory of Allah.
Actually, in this case there is as much risk involved as the Post Office hiring someone who is not mentally stable. If the security apparatus is separate, and profit is the mindset, where is the inherent problem?
I would surmise from (granted: non-empirical) data that Post Offices are more dangerous to employees than working as a longshoreman or stevedore. I understand the strawman aspect I have created, but is not your surmise that this company, being from the Mideast, is unqualified to run the ports because the are from the Mideast? Is this not a form of xenophobia? At what point do we determine postal hires are unfit?
Actually, privatizing everything does not make it cheaper or more efficient. If you take away the government’s ability to do something for itself they are then stuck with what the private provider is willing to give them. I just read an article on this on the website http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com
This site has a ton of information and articles and books on Progressive topics.
Wow! It’s really easy to post a link on this site. I’ve got a new toy! I’ll try not to overuse it.
Goldy, those are excellent ideas. I just hope all of those opinion leaders you hope to influence don’t look on this comments thread.
marks @ 178, read the quote @ 177 regarding the Marine Transportation Security Act of 2002 and how it breaches the imagined gap between security and port operations.
Giving the U.A.E operational control over 21 US ports is plainly insane. U.A.E was one of only 4 countries to recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. Two of the Hijakers of 9/11 were from U.A.E. U.A.E supported the Taliban financially. U.A.E banks laundered the money for the 9/11 attackers.
And now Bush (“I didn’t learn about it till it made the news”) threatens to use a veto (the first in his presidency) to keep the deal intact. Why?
33 million dollars for Treasury Sect. Snow. These assholes would leave 21 of our ports in the hands of a U.A.E government owned company for fucking money.
This is the shit that is going to finally kill the NeoCon beast once and for all.
I just skimmed the comment thread, and I think it’s worth pointing out that, while nobody will ever convince me that the initiative process’s benefits outweigh it’s flaws, this post was not about eliminating the initiative… it was about reforming the process to make it better.
And yet, much of the negative reaction to this post was typically knee-jerk. That’s disappointing.
Hey Ray – Are you a racist too? Splain why UAE shouldn’t run ports.
Bush Administrastion = Traitors = America Haters = Constitution shredders = Killers
Hey MTR, you love the terrorists? Answer the fucking question rakeface.
MTR wants to give control of 21 US ports to a terrorist supporting country.
Real nice, Mark the Dipshit. Real nice.
marks: Is it impossible for you to see that since Reagan we’ve been selling off America to pay for tax cuts for the rich. So, enough all fuckin’ ready! What do we have to do : Nationalize everything and kick the one percenters off the island? Don’t say it’s not possible. If it weren’t then why do they have a fit over unions organizing. This game with these monied assholes is wearing thin…
Hey, MTR, maybe we can let Iran be your truck mechanic.
Comment by Mark The Redneck— 12/15/05 @ 6:27 pm
You know, I am beginning to understand that comment, MTR. Is your nickname, Vagina?
Goldy,
And yet, much of the negative reaction to this post was typically knee-jerk. That’s disappointing.
I apologize for not even making an on topic comment. So, I think you are absolutely correct in wanting a revamp of how initiatives are carried out. I would even suggest that losing initiatives reimburse the state for the money expended. Every election carries a cost, and those costs are borne by the tax-based state.
Eyeman is freeloading…but you knew that.
188, REV AA, Karl Marx couldn’t have said it better!!!
DonDon – Explain how port security works. Explain how port operations work. Explain exactly how UAE controls security. Show us how fucking smart you are. We’re all waiting.
Or are you a racist? Do you profile? Do you assume all Arabs are terrorists?’
Do tell…
We’re waiting to hear.
You other moonbats can weigh in too… I’d love to know…
Hey Rev – Us “rich” people pay the overwhelming majority of taxes. Bottom 50% losers like you only carry 4%. How the fuck do you give tax breaks to people who already get a free ride on the backs of the producers.
Also, show me how fucking smart you are. Take the adminstration of The Greatest President of the 20th Century. Tell me if tax revenues increased or decreased during the 80s. No other bullshit… tell me if tax take went up or down.
Fucking moron….
MTR, I am curious… Just how does it feel to support letting the terrorist financing state U.A.E control US Ports?
Hmmm…? You really hate America that much? You just wish you could be sucking Osama Bin Laden’s dick right now, don’t you?
I bet you cried when the to U.A.E hijackers died on 9/11. Maybe one of them was your lover.
MTR “Never saw a terrorist I dodn’t love” asks
“Explain how port security works.”
Already have, MTR. look at the post at 176.
WHy do you hate America, MTR? Why do you love the terrorists?
What goes through your mind when you are sucking OBL’s dick, MTR?
You just love that terrorist, don’t ya? Want to invite him into our ports.
marks: Is it impossible for you to see that since Reagan we’ve been selling off America to pay for tax cuts for the rich. So, enough all fuckin’ ready! What do we have to do : Nationalize everything and kick the one percenters off the island? Don’t say it’s not possible. If it weren’t then why do they have a fit over unions organizing. This game with these monied assholes is wearing thin…
Wow, Reverend…
I am a member of the lower class. Unions have a purpose, and I have always been one to recognize that. Yet there will always be a place for those who take risks in putting together a business. We would be a real sorry nation if we decide every business needs a union. Corporations like the one I work for need to be burdened by unions, but every business? Sounds draconian to me…
MTR lies saying “Us “rich†people pay the overwhelming majority of taxes. Bottom 50% losers like you only carry 4%.”
I have repeatedly disproven that particular lie several times, MTR.
Stick to what you know. Sucking off Osama.
besides, MTR, keeping your teeth in a jar next to the bed in your trailer, doesn’t make you “rich”
Just pathetic looking.
I just love watching NeoCon Zombies trying to defend selling US Port operations to a terrorist supporting state.
God, this is just heaven!
Why do you hate America, MTR?
Just answer the fucking question!
donna @196
Just how does it feel to support letting the terrorist financing state U.A.E control US Ports?
Ya know, donna, you of all people should realize the untenable position you are in. So, you hate Muslims? Can’t have racial profiling, and them ragheads can’t run our ports? Despite the fact that they run the largest and most efficient port in the Middle East? Wow! You are the race arbiter now? Sheesh…
marks, please show me anywhere I even hinted that I hate Muslims. Or that I want ed to racial profile anyone.
I don’t care it the U.A.E. was populated by Swedes. Their history is as a terrorist supporting country. They have absolutely no busisness running US port operations.
And FUCK YOU for trying ot put words in my mouth.
marks, never try that bullshit again.
Read the fucking posts before you slur someone, marks.
re 199: Buying T-Bills with their ill gotten tax windfalls doesn’t sound too risky to me. Don’t quote Republican pap to us. Save it for some “Silent Generation” type who’s so inculcated with that right wing dogma that he can’t think straight anymore.
Risk! Gimme a break… What did Walter Annenberg “risk” when he loaned Bill Gates $50,000. He’d either win big or have another tax deduction.
marks: you’re a bit of a drudge and a dundering lunkhead at times — but we all love ya anyway. And you look great on that giant tricycle with your red propeller beany spinning furiously as you race down the driveway towards the road.
“Wheee”, you say, “look at me! I’m a blue collar philosopher!”
marks, either post an example where I said:
– I hate Muslims
– Ragheads
– Racial profiling
Or apologise.
No, Fuck you Donna for your bullshit. The UAE company will run the payroll, and you find that hypocritical to our war on terrorism. Yet you find Bush to be a race baiter for conducting wiretaps? Now who is being hypocritical?
“Repeatedly disproven”. Shit… go to IRS website and read it you fucking idiot.
You have to be able to read data in the form of columns and rows. For an idiot like you that’s way too hard. Considering you don’t even have a fucking clue what goes on in your office and are PROUD of that fact, I don’t expect you’d be able to analyze numerical data.
Fucking idiot
So racist DonDon – If you are automatically against UAE operating ports, I can only assume you are a racist. You assume all Arabs are terrorist. If that’s NOT the case, then explain to us in detail why it’s a bad idea. Explain specifically how port security works.
I know you can’t because you’re just a useful idiot. A programmed robot… A kneejerk librul.
marks
“The UAE company will run the payroll”
A complete and sad lie. Read the posts, marks
“you find Bush to be a race baiter for conducting wiretaps?”
Show me where I said anything of the kind. Let me make it easy for your rapidly degrading mind.
I never did.
You keep putting words in my mouth, and you lose what little credibility you have.
Oh, and FUCK YOU marks, for again trying to put words in my mouth.
marks: you’re a bit of a drudge and a dundering lunkhead at times — but we all love ya anyway. And you look great on that giant tricycle with your red propeller beany spinning furiously as you race down the driveway towards the road.
“Wheee”, you say, “look at me! I’m a blue collar philosopher!”
At least you have the decency to use the term “lunkhead” in it’s proper form. Thanks (I think)…
WHat payroll DonDon? For the US Coast Guard>? Really? Do tell…
C’mon DonDon – Justify your position. Explain in technical detail how ports work and why UAE is a bad idea.
You can’t you fucking idiot. You’re as fucking stoopid as Patty Murray.
MTR… are you on drugs? I said nothing about any payroll.
You seem to be drunk. OR just stupid.
Probably the latter.
MTR, “Justify your position. Explain in technical detail how ports work and why UAE is a bad idea.”
Already have.
You are a true blue terrorist loving moron.
See, Donnageddon, It’s not worth the time constantly trying to refute them. They’ll just wait a while and repeat the same lie. That’s why conservatives won’t debate Progressives in an open forum. They get their asses handed to them!
@ 220 Rev, I know, that is why I don’t bather to repeat what I have already posted.
But the “putting words in my mouth” stuff, really pisses me off.
Donna,
My apologies if you are not a fool. But this whole idea that a company based in the UAE cannot run our ports simply because they are based in the UAE tells me that fools are buying in to the idea that the UAE is a bunch of ragheads. If you are saying that, fuck you. If you are not saying that, thank you, but it still seems you are on the racial bandwagon…
If marks wanted credability as a “common man” “Straight shooter” he would acknowledge that he is just making shit up, and apologise.
I think we can see marks for what he is.
OK. Rev and DonDon – Pair up. Explain in technical detail how port operations and port security works. You can’t can you. You’re just mind numbed robots. You’re idiots. You’re so fucking stoopid, you don’t even know how stoopid you are.
So the “progressives” here, especially DonDon and Rev apparently believe all Arabs are terrorists. They profile people based on what they look like. I suspect other “progressives” here are equally racist and hateful. Please raise your hands.
“But this whole idea that a company based in the UAE cannot run our ports simply because they are based in the UAE tells me that fools are buying in to the idea that the UAE is a bunch of ragheads.”
marks, the “company” is not “based” in the U.A.E… it is OWNED by the U.A.E
Get with the fucking program, marks. Your ignorance is really showing.
“Explain in technical detail how port operations and port security works. You can’t can you”
I am not gpoing to read the posts for you MTR.
But geuss what, everyone else is reading them. so they already know that your questions have been answered.
And you are a limp dicked terrorist lover let with no real response.
marks “it still seems you are on the racial bandwagon…”
And yet you can provide no evidence for that assertion.
Why?
Because it is a lie.
@225
Still fucking yourself donna? They are real people, donna. They are businessfolk. They want the good life you have. I’m making shit up? Look at your shit..
RogerRabbit@154&156 I made the acquaintance of a Master Gunnery Sargeant. He was processing out on a medical. He had done three tours in ‘Nam as an advisor to the South Vietnamese Army.On one occassion he was sweeping through the old Michelin Plantation when he and the company of Vietnamese he was advising were overrun. He had to call for airstrikes on his own location.
After his third tour, as a ‘reward’ he was appointed a DI at MCRD.
One morning at reveille when he went out to muster his new recruits lined up on the little squares with numbers, he saw rows of crosses instead of men. He went straight home, packed the car and went AWOL in the desert for six weeks. When he came back, they told him he ‘had stress’ and started his medical.
Donna,
Go Fuck Yourself. You want credibility? It begins with you…
marks, lets get down to it.
U.A.E supported the Taliban.
U.A.E. recognized the Taliban.
U.A.E financed the Taliban.
Two of the 9/11 terrorists came for U.A.E
U.A.E OWNS the company that Bush wants to sell US Port operations to.
I think that is fucking CRAZY!
If you can find “racial profiling” in that, then you are crazy.
And you owe me an apology.
marks, you are really showing yourself to be a complete NeoCon Zombie.
IF you would bother to look at the facts,…
Well, you won’t bother to.
You will just slur, and lie.
sorry donna.
Good enough?
Now go fuck yourself for being a racist ass:
U.A.E supported the Taliban.
U.A.E. recognized the Taliban.
U.A.E financed the Taliban.
Two of the 9/11 terrorists came for U.A.E
And the U.A.E. has been one of, if not the best, partners in antiterrorist operations since your dated drivel.
marks “They are businessfolk.”
So is the Bush Administration. But if they think selling off 21 US Ports to a terrorist supporting state is good “businsess”.
Them Fuck Them.
And you for supporting this insane “busisness”.
North Koreans want the “good Life” and “Business”.
You support selling them Nuclear Plant operations in the USA?
“And the U.A.E. has been one of, if not the best, partners in antiterrorist operations since your dated drivel.”
Oh, I guess they changed their minds. Oh, well, lets just sell them our Port operations.
I was correct. You are insane.
marks…. I think we made our point. They can’t answer. They don’t even know why they say the shit they do…
Hey Donna, is that a rakehandle bruise on your face? LMAO….
Oh yeah, Go fuck yourself for your racist and outdated slurs. The U.A.E. is full of good people, but you can’t fathom such, can you?
Hell, marks, you didn’t even know that U.A.E owned the company until I told you.
You are such a fucking tool of the NeoCons.
So DonDon – When we go in and bomb Iran, that will be OK with you too because you believe all Arabs are terrorists right? If you don’t want them in our ports, I SAS can’t imagine you’d want them with nukes right?
So when Chirac calls and has us clean up the fucking mess he let form, you’ll be cheering right?
“Go fuck yourself for your racist and outdated slurs.”
citations of these slurs, marks.
Can’t find them?
Because they do not exist.
MTR drunk off his ass said “that will be OK with you too because you believe all Arabs are terrorists right? ”
Nope.
MTR, just why do you love the terrorists?
OK. So UAE are terrorists but Iran are not. Is that it?
DonDon – Go put some ice on your face… LMAO…
MTR, stop giving head to OBL, and put your head in a gas oven, you America Hating asshole.
“So UAE are terrorists but Iran are not. Is that it?”
Nope. Try again, MTR.
Donna sez they are terrorists, so they must be…
Donna is xenophobic, but I said that already….
Donna tries to tie me to some sort of terroristic sentiment, and fails miserably…
Donna, why are you an idiot?
“Donna sez they are terrorists, so they must be…
Donna is xenophobic, but I said that already….
Donna tries to tie me to some sort of terroristic sentiment, and fails miserably…
Donna, why are you an idiot? ”
Nope, and you cannot support any of these lies.
Can you.
marks, I do not think you try to support terrorists, but your ill concieved support of the terrorist supporting state of U.A.E to operate our ports is a sure sign of NeoCon Zombie stupidity.
Let me predict the next post form MTR or marks
“So, Donnageddon, you … (insert lie of your choice).
-Thomas Kean, former Republican governor of New Jersey and head of the 9/11 commission
Any more lies from you, marks?
MTR?
Donna,
Any more lies from you, marks?
No, you do quite well yourself…
But sadly, marks, you can not cite a single lie from me.
Why?
Because there isn’t any.
Brush it off, marks, you fucked up! You joined a discussion you did not understand and then tried to lie yourself out of it.
Happens all the time to NeoCon Zombies.
Just say that “From this day foward, I will not make shit up! I will not put words in other people’s mouths! I will not lie!”
You will feel much better after you do.
Man, ti feels great to speak the truth! Have the facts supporting your views! Use citations to support what you are saying!
It just feels GREAT!
marks, you should try it sometime.
Comment on 168
Republicans don’t “earn” money. They never worked a day in their lives! They get money by taking it from people who work.
229
A guy I knew in high school enlisted in the Marines. Years later, by strange coincidence, when I boarded a plane to fly to Oakland en route to Vietnam — there he was, sitting on the plane with his wife and two kids.
I knew him as a kind of wise guy, brash, loud, wild. The guy I met on the plane was very quiet and reserved. He wished me luck, and simply said, “The Marine Corps was no way to cut Vietnam.” That’s all he would say about it.
Yeah, a lot of those kids didn’t come back. They got cut to pieces.
It’s a riot watching the trollfucks trying to defend this UAE deal! I guess there’s no AMERICAN company capable of running AMERICAN ports, huh. Either that or someone in the Bush administration accepted a bribe from the sheikhs. Oh wait — that’s right — a UAE shiekh donated $1 million to the Bush Presidential Library!
Roger R. It is a sweetheart deal, and the man who stands to profit the most is Treasury Sect. Snow.
Even though he has a 33 million dollar stake in the deal, he claims he found out about it when it hit the news.
Unfortunately for him, he as Treasury Sect. is REQUIRED to chair the committee that approved the deal.
This is the death knoll for the NeoCon American Fuckers.
From Goldy — And yet, much of the negative reaction to this post was typically knee-jerk. That’s disappointing.
Goldy, many of us here have been working with and against initiatives for years. We grew up with them. Were fed all the stories aout finally getting the sales tax off food via initiative. How the people fucked the politicians you so highly over value And so forth.
For me, I feel little is not working. They are a very populat part of out govt. as sacred as the vote itself….. in this state.
Tinkering with fees or postulating about the imposible, makes lille sense – and are not refirms, just venting.
Courts have set real standards where laws are vague.
For you, who seems to take Timmie a bit personally, he is a turd, but the role of voters and the system is not all that flawed.
T O M A K E B I G M O N E Y — take his ideas to another state and start the We Do Initiatives In Voume Franchise. Called political consulting of a sort. Timmie was inevitible in a capitalist society. Smart ass, making a good living.
I actually like him better than Hubert huffing and puffing with the Times printing his blather, from the I. Tower.
And still marks defends the deal. Calls people without a racist bone in their bodies “racists” because they love America more than than they love evil $$$ for the Bush administration. At the expense of the USA’s security handed to a terrorist supporting state.
Sad, really.
C’mon, marks… cite a racist statement I have made.
You lying, bastard.
259
There is no expectation of honest busines in the culture of the Middle Est. All who have been there attest to this fact. The simple term is bribery – but is much more complicated and sublte than cash in the envelope.
I suspect the million from the Emirs for a library — is just the visible money moved to the Bush family and Associates.
The Swiss and off shore account is an art form with these people.
I don’t tink we want to think about all those murky hundreds of millions moving around – it is too scary and criminal to think about. But I am sure it is happening.
There will never be any way to prove it.
Think of all the loot people like Sadam and Marcos had stashed – not millions but — B i l l i o n s. I fear we have offenders in those ranges.
“There will never be any way to prove it.”
The money trail is going to be easy to prove. The hard part is getting through the numbed skulls of FOX viewers and Hannity listeners.
It’s like a poker game. Bush is threatening his first veto, because he knows he has no hand. And he knows that if he loses he is prison bound, or worse.
It is gonna be interesting to see how they play the next hand. We are already seeing a bit of “cowering” in their “we’ll accept a delay” approach.
It may just die when they realize they cannot defend the deal. If they push it, they are dead meat. We (the American people) have all the good cards. And I (believe) the media will finally back us on it.
See, marks? This is not a “racist” “racial profiling” agenda.
It is an America Hating Dirty Money deal, that the NeoCons are gonna choke on.
Get it?
Yet?
GOP LETS CHINA RUN SLAVE LABOR CAMPS ON US SOIL
“Deep in a humid tropical island jungle, in poorly ventilated buildings ringed with barbed wire and patrolled by armed guards, impoverished Asian women — most of them Chinese — toil for 80 hours a week making brand-name apparel for export to the United States.
“The female garment workers were lured to the labor camps, which are run by members of the Chinese Communist Party, with promises of wages … up to 60 percent of what their counterparts in the U.S. earn. But before they were hired, the women had to sign ‘shadow contracts’ that effectively made them slaves to the company. Their activities are strictly regimented, and since they depend on the company store for most of their necessities, what they earn is recycled back into company hands. Furthermore, most of the workers had to borrow huge sums of money, at extortionate rates of interest, to pay, up front, the human traffickers responsible for transporting them to the island. As is the case wherever the Chinese Communist Party claims jurisdiction, the female garment workers are subject to the regime’s repulsive one-child policy. They are forbidden to marry or have boyfriends. Those who become pregnant are forced to have their children aborted.”
GARMENTS MADE ON SAIPAN BY CHINESE SLAVES ARE LABELED “MADE IN USA”
“Despite being produced from Chinese fabric by Chinese laborers who labor under Chinese law, the designer clothing that emerges from those island factories is labeled ‘Made in the USA.’ This is actually a case of truth in labeling, since these Chinese labor camps were established on Saipan, a territorial possession of the United States.
“Thanks to the efforts of super-lobbyist and confessed felon Jack Abramoff, this squalid arrangement has enjoyed political protection from, and been effusively praised by, many ‘conservative’ Republican politicians, including disgraced former House GOP leader Tom DeLay.
” … Since Saipan is a tropical white-sand paradise, Abramoff, representing the CNMI, encountered little difficulty persuading influential people to take all-expenses-paid trips to the tropical island. Once there, they were lobbied by the CNMI government and its allies in the garment industry to preserve its unique status under U.S. law. Among the privileges reserved to the commonwealth were the right to set its own immigration policy, exemption from labor and workplace safety regulations, exemptions from tariffs and quotas, and the right to label as ‘Made in the USA’ goods that are manufactured by Chinese workers in factories that are, in effect, pockets of Chinese sovereignty.”
DELAY COMPARES SLAVE WORKERS TO LABORATORY MICROBES
“During a lavish New Year’s Eve dinner held in his honor at the beach front Hyatt Regency Hotel, DeLay praised Saipan as ‘my Galapagos Island … a perfect petri dish of capitalism.’ He singled out … the CNMI’s governor, praising him for being ‘a shining light for what is happening in the Republican Party, and [for representing] everything that is good about what we’re trying to do in America, in leading the world in the free market system.’
“While DeLay never distinguished himself as an economist or scholar, it’s likely that he understood that selectively exempting politically protected manufacturers from regulations and taxes is corporatism, not free-market capitalism. It’s likewise a safe bet that he understood that a free market is not built on slave labor. And as one of the most conspicuous leaders of the Christian Right, DeLay certainly understood that abortion — particularly forced abortion — is an abomination. Yet all of these repellent practices thrived in the Saipan ‘petri dish’ that so enchanted DeLay.”
http://www.thenewamerican.com/.....3116.shtml
PHOTOS OF SAIPAN SLAVE LABOR GARMENT FACTORIES
Guard house: http://homepage.mac.com/mgnewman/SpnWlk/
Barracks: http://homepage.mac.com/mgnewm.....24-tb.html
Factory building: http://homepage.mac.com/mgnewm.....32-tb.html
Workers inside factory: http://www.pacificislands.cc/p.....arment.jpg
HUMAN TRAFFICKERS FILL SAIPAN’S GARMENT FACTORIES WITH SLAVES
“Mostly owned by mainland Chinese and South Korean enterprises, the 30-plus apparel plants have combined with tourism to produce a remarkable statistic: Business gross receipts for the Northern Marianas grew from $224 million in 1985 to $2 billion in 1996.
“The cheap labor that built this boom is flown in daily by jetliner to an ‘America’ where their hopes often quickly die in muddy back lanes.
“Like many other Bangladeshis, Kundu, 23, paid $5,000 to a Saipan-based Bangladeshi broker who flew him here with promises of a $1,000-a-month job as a security guard.
“‘For three months I worked and they didn’t pay me. Then I decided, “No more,”‘ Kundu said. ‘I sold my land and borrowed from relatives to get here. How can I pay them back?’
“Paychecks bounce, jobs vanish, employers escape scrutiny by changing company names. It’s a common story among dozens of Bangladeshis packed into tumbledown houses scattered across Saipan, often sleeping four or five to a dingy 12-by-12-foot room, a couple of dozen sharing a single toilet and bath. Foreign workers in Saipan are barred from moving elsewhere in the United States.
“Officials suspect brokers and employers, especially fly-by-night security companies, import too much labor for too few jobs, and split the fees paid by jobseekers.
…
“Federal inspectors have found hundreds of health and safety violations in workplaces and dormitories throughout the island. Reports persist of sexual abuse, withholding of wages and other harassment of foreigners who are effectively indentured to single employers via one-year work permits.
…
“Most garment workers are mainland Chinese brought in for a year. According to the U.S. Interior Department, some are housed in closely controlled barracks, often after signing agreements forbidding them to engage in political or religious activity while here, or even to fall in love.
…
“‘The garment industry is a scam,’ Allen P. Stayman, the U.S. Interior Department’s director for Saipan and other U.S. islands, said in a telephone interview from his office in Washington.
“Stayman, point man in the Clinton administration’s campaign to change things in Saipan, said the wage and import exemptions were originally written into the commonwealth accord to create jobs for the Chamorros, who are U.S. citizens.
“‘They’ve totally scammed this program, by bringing in communist Chinese materials and people to make these products,’ he said.”
http://www.s-t.com/daily/01-98.....2bu245.htm
Republicans are evil and will go to Hell for their crimes against humanity.
I would rather they just go to The Hague for their crimes.
Hell, is just a little to abstract for me.
Mark The Rake @ 149 “Geez, I sure hope yer not some kind of racist”. Why would you ask that question? I have never posted anything in my concerning the ‘race card’. If you are commenting on the word ‘trollheads’ that is a word aimed at yourself and your brothers in crime. (JCH, OINK, Rufus, YO, etc). Now what are you going to do with all of those rakes? Sit on them? Would probably be an improvement.
and furthermore, Should we ‘outsource’ ATT&T to North Korea? General Motors to South Korea? Hanford to Nigeria? There has to be some useful thought process before turning over the US’s infrastructure to forign ownership. Some have estimated that Snow will receive up to 33,000,000 for this ‘outsourcing’ and then he comes back and says he was ‘unaware of the deal’! Chertoff was ‘unaware of the deal’. What are these ‘executives’ doing in DC if all of them seem to have been ‘unaware of the deal’? Even you undistinguished president was ‘unaware of the deal’ until he heard about it from the press. There seems to be no communication in the hierarchy of the GOP. Is that the way the USA is headed? Or have we arrived already?
Didn’t the Romans do some military outsourcing themselves before their final fall? What a strange world. It was the WWII vets that turned it all over to these guys by voting in the Reagan PR team. Just another thing besides bigotry , intolerance, the old boy system and trying to raise kids to be uniform spokes in the industrial wheel that we have to thank Tom Brokaw’s “most bestest generation ever” for.
63 –JCH
Of all the post I have read here you and Mr C and Oink are the O N L Y posters who I think might be fucking foats. It is no surprise to see you dig this up and post it. Fascinating for you isn’t it?
Recreates the farm boy part of you younger life, I bet.
Cougar – I fear we have been there for four years.
The Bush WH ignored orders from Federal Judges about the prison at Gitmo.
There were legal actions to disclose who was there. Yes, a siting federal judge sid, give me the sames in secret if you will not do it in public.
They refuse. Bad sign of the end of democracy and its Constitution when the pukes at the WH say fuck off to aFederal Judge.
When will they ise marial law is perhaps the big question.
All thse new camps they are building are not for the rich and privledged
Republicans who have become a new ruling class in this culture. Nothing like it prior American History of this century.
Coup de etat. Junta. Call it what you wish.
J U S T I N —- SUCK ON THIS IF YOU LIKE MIKE
from Sunday P I – Dave A. longtime AP writer
DUELING POLLS. Last week’s report mentioned a Republican poll that showed Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., with just an eight point lead over her likely GOP challenger, Mike McGavick. Big trouble? Now independent pollster Stuart Elway reports Cantwell with a runaway 30-point lead – 55 percent definitely voting for her or inclined to do so, versus 25 percent inclined or definitely voting McGavick’s way. Elway interviewed 405 voters by phone Feb. 6-9; margin of error plus or minus five percentage points.
-BUSH DRAG. Elway said his polls show Cantwell’s popularity gaining over the past five years and that the state is “darker blue” this year. Referring to President Bush’s dismal numbers here, Elway says “Cantwell will try in this campaign to make McGavick’s middle initial `W.'” Thus far, McGavick hasn’t shown voters a compelling reason to dump Cantwell, he says.
I guess there’s no AMERICAN company capable of running AMERICAN ports, huh.
There are two of them, IIRC, SSA Marine and one other in NJ. Between them they operate 7 ports I think.
This country gave up the port running business a long time ago. After handing dollars to the sheiks for their oil for so long, it’s only reasonable they’ll want assets other than American stocks and bonds in return.
People’s rage over this is misplaced. They really fear the commanding heights of American sovereignty being slowly eroded but they asked for it – they asked for cheap oil so they could drive gas-guzzling cars longer distances to family wage jobs in exchange for single-family homes that would appreciate in value. They asked for dirt cheap goods to consume in big box stores which is just an indirect way of burning even more oil.
Energy is a cost, a form of rent and FDR understood, as early as when he was Governor of NY, that rents should be taxed or under public control. BPA? TVA? Now look who we rent oil from. Hello?
“short of taking Timmy out behind the wood shed and shooting him?”
Why are you trying to make that sound like a bad thing? Hell, it’s the kind of policy we’re promoting in Iraq…
GBS@72: Reagan’s debt? I thought Congress approved budgets. Did Jim “I Love American Airlines” “Fort Worthless” Wright add $2 of social programs for every $1 of tax cuts as sleazer of the house? I thought you had a better command of history!
GBS@72_Cont’d: Regarding Clinton, I thought the economy took off when Congress changed control to Republicans. Clinton couldn’t tax his way to prosperity. Republican Congress forced him to perform Welfare Reform. Hmmm… Doesn’t Congress perform the budgetary work?
Puddy: You’ve always got an excuse or an “exzplanation” — but you’re always wrong. Where’s your proof. Cite Specifics.
I can’t believe you people have been on the Internet for some time, on this blog no less, and never heard ‘fucktard!’
I play too many games, I think.
@ 281:
Puddybud if “Hmmm… Doesn’t Congress perform the budgetary work?” Then, what’s your excuse now?
We are on a course headed for serious financial trouble which will do grave harm to the US. Espcially, funding the Chinese military through businesses owned the by the state in China, then having those profits rise to the Chinese central bank where they purchase US T-bills.
They’re getting it from both ends. If they ever call out debt in, it would shake our financial institutions to their knees.
Is that what you want to have happen. Speaking of having command of history, you forget, or willingly omit, that Regan promised the Democrats in congress that if we “trusted” him on trickle down economics we would have an economic boom. The result: Two of most severe recessions in the last 50 years.
Furthermore, from a historical perspective, you forget that Clinton forced Newt-er and the boys to accept his overhaul of the budget in ’95, which ALL the Republcians said would result in financial disaster. The result: The Greatest economic growth in the history of the planet.