There are a handful of Republican senators who deserve a great deal of credit for standing up to the bullying of their own leadership.
The Senate on Friday rejected attempts to reauthorize several provisions of the USA Patriot Act as infringing too much on Americans’ privacy and liberty, dealing a huge defeat to the Bush administration and Republican leaders.
In a crucial vote early Friday, the bill’s Senate supporters were not able to get the 60 votes needed to overcome a threatened filibuster by Sens. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., and Larry Craig, R-Idaho, and their allies. The final vote was 52-47.
Feingold and Craig want to extend the Patriot Act in its current form for several months so that the Senate has time to add more civil liberties protections, but Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist has refused. The failure to close off debate and bring the bill to a vote came in the wake of today’s New York Times report that Bush authorized domestic surveillance of phone calls and emails of thousands of private citizens.
The previously undisclosed decision to permit some eavesdropping inside the country without court approval was a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices, particularly for the National Security Agency, whose mission is to spy on communications abroad. As a result, some officials familiar with the continuing operation have questioned whether the surveillance has stretched, if not crossed, constitutional limits on legal searches.
“This is really a sea change,” said a former senior official who specializes in national security law. “It’s almost a mainstay of this country that the N.S.A. only does foreign searches.”
Hey… remember the good old 1990’s, when the right-wing, whacko, militia-types spouted their paranoid fantasies about government intrusion and “black helicopters” and all that? Should it be any surprise that now that these same wing-nuts are running the country, they’re attempting to use on the rest of us the exact same tactics they imagined were once being used on them?
Okay… maybe that’s overstating things. But to those ardent GOP loyalists who would defend the Bush administration turning our intelligence apparatus inward, authorizing domestic spying on US citizens without court order… would you be so cavalier about our civil liberties if the enormous power of the state rested in the hands of a Democratic administration? Because if we still have a democracy, you’ve got to expect that it will eventually.
Thank, God! There’s still a modicum of understanding of the Constitution and our civil liberties in Washington, D.C.
According to George Bush, Osama Bin Laden and the terrorists hate us for our freedom and liberties. Looks like the Senate just scored a victory in the War on Terror.
good news! Always glad to see something go right for once…
The patriot act was a nightmare.
(PS: Righton is a Nazi)
Bush Bitch-Slapped Again should be the title of this thread. This guy is the lamest lame duck in all time. His “agenda” is dead.
And in this case it’s a damn good thing. I never thought I would wake up in an America where the government spied on Quakers’ meetings, kept lists of what its citizens read at the library, stopped people from attending political rallies if they didn’t swear an oath to vote for Bush, promulgated rules denying trials to US citizens, detained and tortured people for years without trial, etc., etc., etc.
Bush keeps saying he wants to bring Democracy to Iraq. How about a little God damn democracy right here at home first?
post 2 isn’t bad!
Windie,
I am ‘iffy’ on the patriot act itself. There are things I like and things I don’t like. If it prevents terrorist attacks in the US, if Congress does their job and provides vigorous oversight, I like it on a temporary basis. Those 13 provisions that they just voted to let expire, are a slippery slope for our rights and they need to be checked on their worthliness and debated and approved or not approved for a specified time.
As for what happened this morning, it pisses me off! The partisian nonsense in our Senate is an outrage. What are we paying these 50 Senators to do? The only thing they are accomplishing is grandstanding, pandering to their bases, and campaigning for themselves and their party. They are dysfunctional.
Comment by sgmmac— 12/16/05 @ 10:49 am
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we have democracy here you dim bulbs. there is NO democracy in seattle though……for instance. and that’s dem-land. go figure!
the patriot act is meant to protect us all. i can only imagine how you fools would have handled world war 2.
why don’t any of you explain how the patriot act was a personal threat to you……
tick tock…this should be rich…….
Ahhhhh, yes. The R(ats)epublicans are abandoning their leader now that the ’06 elections are looming on the horizon.
Any one see Arlen Specter getting all uppity about the NSA spying on American citizens? What a laugh. Of course, these are the same numb nuts who want to extend the (un)Patriot Act so they can spy on us about what books we are checking out at the public library.
aah, substantive debate… how I love it! (HAH!)
Xmasghost: I’m glad you like having your phone calls tapped without a warrant, or them looking at what you’ve checked out from the library (without your knowledge)… but I don’t. Government prying is frightening
If Democrats can defeat Republicans even with the massive support Republicans get from corporations, it may mean we can knock back the excessive corporate power that has developed over the years. That is the true source of our political problems: corporate money corrupting our political process. Democrats and Republicans alike who want to leave a free country for our children and grandchildren need to figure a way to defuse the unacceptable power these Frankenstein business constructs have developed, especially since the Reagan era. It has been said, and I believe it , that Reagan was nothing more than an “amiable dunce”. …A front for a corporate team that the elected representative of the people had no hand in choosing himself.
holidayGhost @ 6
Let’s see WWII, The greatest generation. . . a real war against our very existence from Germany and Japan.
Refresh my memory: who was the President? Who controlled congress? Tell us, how did that war end again?
I’m already laughing my ass off at XmasGhost.
Go on how did WWII go???????
Windie,
Are you really reading any books or talking about anything on the phone that would cause the NSA to think you are a Terrorist?
A female Senator just back from Iraq is coming on Fox to talk about what she saw……. Cantwell?
I still can’t figure out why we needed at new government department, Homeland Security, and the Patriot Act, too. Seems to me that the Departmentof Defense is responsible for Homeland Security, and the Patriot Act wasn’t necessary at all: what Bush should have done was put a meadium-sized nuke about where we though Osama was hanging out. Then, he should have gone on TV and dared anyone to ever try a stunt like 9/11 again.
The Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security just amounted to a jobs program and a way to increase government power/control over our lives.
sgm@12
I was waiting for that question, actually :) (sorry for the trap :p)
The answer, is, of course, no. If they’re only using the new powers for their official purpose… or if nothing is going to change (re:their opinion on what they can get you for).
I don’t think the ‘only guilty people would care’ argument would fly on this one.
@ 5 – they ARE doing what we are paying them for. You, apparently, are the dysfunctional one… The Pat Act was bad, and they defeated it.
Season’sGreetingGhost:
Tick-tock, tick-tock. . . You’re answer to how us Democrats would ahve handled WWII?
C’mon, sweetcheeks, it ain’t rocket science! It’s called American History. Do you know the subject? Or are you some O’Reilly American where facts and truth just don’t matter?
Gun, bomb, terrorist, President –
Now the National Security Agency will be reading all of our comments here! Watch your language!
“Xmasghost: I’m glad you like having your phone calls tapped without a warrant, or them looking at what you’ve checked out from the library (without your knowledge)… but I don’t. Government prying is frightening”
now why would that be frightening? are you doing things that are illegal? a threat? because i certainly am not.
only criminals have to worry about that and if you are so worried about our government “spying” on us then why don’t you take on the clinton administration? hmm? all those IRS files for hillary to peruse…….why?
this should be rich.
GBS…..this is a rhetorical question that i just have to ask.
can you really be as stupid as you sound? i lost my uncle in world war 2…he was fighting in europe. my dad was a fighter pilot in the pacific.
yes..i do know how world war 2 ended. do you know how many US soliers died? [ without googling..that would be NO] did you know that even back then after the war was over there were whiners like you wringing their hands and saying it was all a mistake? because it took years to really clean up germany.they bitched about the cost, they bitched about how many had died, and often they bitched because they didn’t want to save the jews…and none of them served. what a surprise………YOUR PEEPS.
as far as “wars” go this one is going really really well. it is still a war………… and nothing in a war goes as planned. so if all you chicken little’s want to wring your hands…..the rest of us know what bullshit that is. if clinton was in the white house killing camels with a missile you would be talking about how well everything was going.
and we all know it……..
sgmmac
C’mon dude. Haven’t you taken the Oath of Enlistment????
Remember? This is how it went: “I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;”
If that is true, then which on of the Bill of Rights in the Constitution is being violated by the Patriot Act?????
Answer that and you demonstrate that you have the ability to debate the subject matter at hand. Otherwise you’re just going to be relegated to obsolescence like KrisKringleGhost and her inane comment about how Democrats would have handled WWII
9,
yea cuz no democract has any money or support from a corportation.
Not like Microsoft didnt support democrats….oh wait, they did, and so did Boeing…
GBS,
why don’t you clarify the democratic party switch pre-post civil rights?
Which view would apply to FDR, if in fact the democrats of yesteryear are the republicans of today?
let me make it more clear. during world war two there were still actually democrats.
now all we have is socialists posing as democrats….
vote early vote often, slash tires, set fires, throw bombs, and scare old people……
your schtick……..
10
it ended with a Democrat nuking Japan.
Is that your present recommendation?
sven…half the people ‘commenting’ on here work at boeing. i use the term W-O-R-K very very lightly. during the governor’s race that’s all they did. light up local chat boards with “their” [pre-approved] “opinions”
they were paid to do it………
Windie,
It isn’t an argument really, I personally could less if they want to listen or look at me. They could care less about you or me too. The fact is they do care about sleeper cells in Seattle and other major cities. If a businessman in Seattle is receiving phone calls from overseas locations and it’s harmless, they move on. The “government spies” don’t have near enough people to spy on all Americans, what they do need is some authority to check on a few hundred Americans.
Do I like giving up personal rights? No! Is there a need for it on a temporary basis? Yes. It is a slippery slope, a big one.
The sad fact is that we are attacked, we tighten our security, we get lazy, we get complacent, we loosen security, we are attacked again….. and so history goes on and on. I saw it over and over in the Army. You make mistakes, you fix it, a year later, the same mistakes are made, you fix it, and make them again.
Fixing the patriot act is necessary.
Killing it completely would be dangerous. It was passed to gve the government tools it lacked.
One lesson all analyst agreed on was the limits in law and intelligence pre 911 contributed to its happening.
They need to fix all of it, not just kill it and pat themselves on the back
There was good work happenign on it in the House. Pity the Senate is not as smart.
sgmmac asks windie:
Are you really reading any books or talking about anything on the phone that would cause the NSA to think you are a Terrorist?
Though windie seems to be personally unworried about the implications of the Patriot Act and other such domestic surveillance activities, I’m not so sanguine about it.
Frankly, I don’t know whether my reading habits or telephone conversations are “interesting” to the NSA. None of us do. We have no idea what they’re looking for, who they’re investigating, why they might be interested, who decides what they’re looking for, whether they’re looking at us or our friends or our neighbors. They never have to tell us or anyone else who they’re looking at or why they’re looking. They never have to account to any outside agency about their activities. There is absolutely no supervision or accountability beyond themselves.
I don’t do or say anything that I consider unpatriotic or illegal in any way. I have no idea whether the NSA, FBI, and/or whoever the Patriot Act empowers to carry out domestic snooping agrees with my evaluation of my actions. If they disagree, they could whisk me away without a shred of due process, without anyone knowing where I’ve gone or why I’ve disappeared.
That’s how the Patriot Act could impact me. Or you. Or any American.
Left Wing Commie Democrats, I must have missed your posts on your outrage when Hillary ended up with 1000 FBI files. Bush listens in on terrorists: bad!! Hillary gets “dirt” on 1000 political opponents: Well, That’s just fine!!! [Democrats: idiots and hypocites]
28,
You do understand that the majority of the provisions of the patriot act were existing law that was used for oorganized crime that the act authorized for use in terrorism, right>
And a good portion of the new provisions that were not specifically law were allowed under current legal precedents?
So what was new in the patriot act that worries you?
GBS,
Off the top of my head, I would say the right to privacy, since that is the one I value the most, because I am female and what I choose to do with my body is my choice, not the governments and definitely not the religious right. I am 52 and divorced, so I am not having an abortion anytime soon, but it IS my right to do so if I make the morale and ethical decision to do that.
N in Seattle,
I do not like or support your scenario and I have already stated that those who are above the law are lawless.
@8 I’m glad you like having your phone calls tapped without a warrant
Leave Jim McDermmott out of this.
@24 And I thought internment was the greatest legacy of that administration…
Off the top of my head, new in the Patriot Act:
a) extension from “organized crime” as target, to an undefined, nebulous, unrevealed, and unlimited number of people … anyone.
b) no accountability to any other agency, no requirement to ever publicly disclose the subpoena conditions and contents, or even the existence of a subpoena, to anyone.
I understand that the Patriot Act per se isn’t the entire extent of the onslaught on the Bill of Rights, that there are many other anti-American activities by the ruling cabal besides the Patriot Act. It’s the most obvious symbol, one of the few pieces of the Bush attack-on-America that it’s somewhat possible to affect in some small way.
N: Did I sasy that I didn’t care? I care alot about what they’re doing… I meant to address the rhetoric/argument that only guilty people care. But you did a better job than I did.
special note to xmasghost: Way to take a 100% predictable track that had already been addressed Whats it like being congenitally dishonest and hopeless?
Thank God for liberals like Larry Craig of Idaho… wait, he’s not a liberal? How could that be? He’s for protecting the rights of Americans! Well, kudos to him!
XGhost @ 19 wrote:
GBS…..this is a rhetorical question that i just have to ask.
can you really be as stupid as you sound? . . . do know how world war 2 ended. do you know how many US soliers died? [ without googling..that would be NO]”
Just to prove how STUPID you are, and how CORRECT I am here’s a link for you to read, DUMB ASS.
http://www.horsesass.org/wp-trackback.php/908 see my entry @ 300 just in case you thinking I’m acting like a conservative and lying, or read the post post below, you dolt!
The irony here, is that I was debating YOU. God, it’s so easy to defeat a hypocritical shrill like you, ChristmasGhost.
ChristmasGhost @ 293
There were several good reason to intervene in Kosovo.
1.) There was genocide going on.
2.) Instability in that particular region of Europe sparked WWII. Which as we all know cost over 400,000 lives. So it’s better to nip it in the bud then let it spill over into another raging conflict across the continent.
Comment by GBS— 8/15/05 @ 5:07 pm
So, as I was saying about your stupid, stupid statement, Democrats led our nation to its GREATEST victory ever. Bush, is a fuck up.
The End.
So, I wanted to share a conversation I had with a co-worker yesterday.
The subject of the utilikilt came up (http://utilakilt.com/) and after some consideration, I subscribed that the utilikilt is the perfect metaphor for a seattle liberal male.
It wrongfully proclaims manly attributes, yet is completely and utterly feminized.
Of course the damn thing passed 98-1-1 in the Senate. It was put out immediately after 9/11. The country was scared shit less. Even George Carlin said that he was forced to make a deal with his enemy (the US Government).
Upon reflection, the fact that such a Bill was waiting in the wings 10 days (http://www.cdt.org/security/010920bill_text.pdf) after 9/11 is scary.
That it was passed less then 1 ½ months latter with little or no debate was terrifying (http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/)
The fact that President George W Bush and his administration would use it to suppress the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments was not unexpected (http://www.walterbrasch.com/preface.htm).
sgmmac @ 30.
You’re assumption is correct. The point of law is your 4th Amendment right.
Which, by the way, taqgging on to your abortion comment, is what makes abortion a constitutionally protected choice. The right to priviacy between a patient and doctor is protected by the constitution.
I wonder how many of the right-wing zealots knew the Rove v. Wade case is based on the 4th Amendment? Less than 1% I’d bet.
sggmac:
My apologies for assuming you were a dude @ 20. From now on you’ll be addressed as dudette.
Sincerely,
GBS
“I wonder how many of the right-wing zealots knew the Rove v. Wade case is based on the 4th Amendment? Less than 1% I’d bet.”
I wonder how many gave a shit and thought it had more to do with killing an innocent child?
I wonder how many liberals think this had something to do with rove instead of roe?
Looks like seasonsgreetingsghost IS a content-free O’Reily bluster monger. The democrats of the 30s and 40s were far closer to socialists than the progressives of today. Furthermore I’d posit that the husge public works programs under FDR led directly to America’s ability to ramp up for wartime production.
I hasten to point out that under a democratic admin. we got in and Won WW II more quickly that the so-called war on terror. It was the Republicans who were the head in the sand isolationists in those decades.
I’ve played the “I lost a (insert relative here) in the war” card myself – guess what – it’s a cheap shot that doesn’t actually prove anything. I wonder if Chanukkaghost even had a “oh crap” moment when the posts here started calling factual bullshit on his silly assertion that the Dems would have botched WW II.
The Dems blew it on civil rights with internment camps – and it took decades to come around and try to make it right. But don’t trot out your Reagan-era revisionist history crap that the Dems can’t fight a war. or whatever – obviously the hardcore wingnuts will believe what their leaders tell them.
prr: stop being an apologist for Osma Bin Laden and George Bush.
We know you hate America. We know you hate the military. We also know you hate the Constitution. We also know you don’t understand the constitution and it’s guarantees.
OK, FAG, run along now.
Looks like seasonsgreetingsghost IS a content-free O’Reily bluster monger. The democrats of the 30s and 40s were far closer to social ists than the progressives of today. Furthermore I’d posit that the husge public works programs under FDR led directly to America’s ability to ramp up for wartime production.
I hasten to point out that under a democratic admin. we got in and Won WW II more quickly that the so-called war on terror. It was the Republicans who were the head in the sand isolationists in those decades.
I’ve played the “I lost a (insert relative here) in the war” card myself – guess what – it’s a cheap shot that doesn’t actually prove anything. I wonder if Chanukkaghost even had a “oh crap” moment when the posts here started calling factual bullshit on his silly assertion that the Dems would have botched WW II.
The Dems blew it on civil rights with internment camps – and it took decades to come around and try to make it right. But don’t trot out your Reagan-era revisionist history crap that the Dems can’t fight a war. or whatever – obviously the unthinking wingnuts will believe what their leaders tell them.
P.S. I don’t think I get prr’s irony – about rove… I guess I just thought she was a bad typist.
I love the contrast between people like sgmmac and sven vs. prr and ghostie.
It becomes clear who actually wants to discuss things and who enjoys being angry… or getting people angry… or who just flip out when their dearly held beliefs are challenged.
To the righties actually interested in the issues thank you! To those who like to hear their own ranting go away!
prr:
“why don’t you clarify the democratic party switch pre-post civil rights?”
What the fuck are you asking? pre-post civil rights?
poster child….wow..clever name, did goldy “give” it to you?
“Chanukkaghost even had a “oh crap” moment when the posts here started calling factual bullshit on his silly assertion that the Dems would have botched WW II.”
oh uh huh….try actually reading my post. instead of being a [knee] JERK [reaction]
those were actual democrats back during world war 2…..it’s a different world now.
my point was….can you imagine what would have happened if the “democrats” of today were running the show back then.
we would still be in negotiations with hitler……..
@44 I think he means the change that happened when all the Democrat racists turned Republican
seems like you re pretty ill informed,
Why don’t you break down the base changes in the democratic party before and after the 1948 election.
Saying that the democrats of 1945 are the same party as today is a friggin hallucination.
re:46
The democrats just weren’t meeting your average klansmans needs anymore, and the Republicans saw a marketing opportunity…
XG @ 45
You’re rants are boring. Your facts are incorrect. You’re an apologist for a failed presidency. Given the Dem’s track record in WWII or more recently Kosovo, we would have been much more effective than the republicans. In fact, this war would have been over and done with and forgotten about like the war in Kosovo. See, when General Clark and President Clinton opted to use our military might, they did so wisely and with a plan for victory and an exit strategy that left European’s in charge of their own domestic issues.
Once again you are relegated to being obsolete.
Thanks for playing but you’re just plain wrong.
Buh-bye for you now.
Windie @ 43.
Thank you.
Windie
My thanks too!
CrassMasGhost @
we would still be in negotiations with hitler……..
Comment by christmasghost— 12/16/05 @ 12:31 pm
You mean like the way the Bush family was working with the Nazi war machine?
Yeah. OK, there Mrs. Obsolete.
whateverrrrrr, like, oh my god, George Bush is the best president ever, because Hannity said so. Like, ya know, where’s my brain?
49,
Minor nit pick, but all they did was place our military under the command of the UN.
Had the UN any balls and a little less reliance on oil for food profits, that might have happened this time.
My number 1 complaint with Bush taking unilateral action in Iraq had nothing to do with a need to do it. It had to do with the fact that the UN had become Saddams lapdog, and wouldn’t do what its own resolutions called for.
My second complaint with Bush going to Iraq, also had nothing to with need. It had to do with us having a moral obligation to save the world, when we had issues at home that needed dealing with. Saddam needed to go, I just didn’t believe we were the only ones with an obligation to do so, and I do not think that we are the world’s savior.
Now, having said all that, the war in Iraq happened. We need to finish it and leave.
Hopefully the UN learns a lesson about its own inegrity too. They bear a siugnificant fault for this mess.
If the UN is to exist then it needs to be effective, not corrupt.
prr @ 47
I’ve Puddybud and PacMan to death on that subject. The next time Puddybud or PacMan are posting go ahead ask them what I know on the subject of the Dixiecrats and the demography of the south and how it transcended the traditional holds on politics and gave birth to the modern day Christian Conservative political movement.
You stick to what you know: Like hating the Constitution and the military. OK? Don’t try to get all intellectual on us.
Hey, isn’t it milk and cookies time at your day car center? I bet they’re going to have story time. I hear your day care provider will be reading My Pet Goat followed by nappy time.
@53
Outstanding post!
Wow…
What an arrogant way to not reply to a subject.
So far, you’ve addressed nothing.
So While I am having my milk and cookies keep repeating, “ya, I kicked his ass on that”
Of course follow that up with “San Dimas football Rules!!!”
Prr,
Im staying out of your argument with GBS, but I had to laugh at the Bill and Ted line……
GBS…..does that stand for “goldy’s bull shit”?????
as usual….you are just blowing smoke.”Bush family was working with the Nazi war machine”…now that’s really rich. they were working with the nazi war machine much less than the UN and our democratic politicians [mcdermott and murray] were working for saddam. that’s for sure.
for you, of all people, to call someone immature or tell them it’s time for their nap is hysterically funny. aren’t you the one that morphs people’s names and then thinks you are terribly clever and hilarious when you are doing it?
whew……..
kosovo was so different than this war. this is actually a war. and unlike kosovo the combatants are hiding/working in a much larger area. it couldn’t be any different, could it?
i’ll bet you were a big fan of LBJ……
windie @ 46 –
Yeah, i guess all the Dems that converted to the Rep party back in the 50’s & 60’s were a bit on the racist side. Sounds like another good reason for term limits!!!
@59
*giggle*
Scary innit? I think they’re mostly dead now, tho’
prr:
You had your chance at getting in on the Republican Southern Strategy debate. Weren’t you the one that said you could tell us all about the politics in Philadelphia, MS?
Yeah, thought so. Annnnny ways, beating the crap out of another conservative regarding the death of the party of Lincoln and the birth of modern day conservatism isn’t on my agenda for today. It’s a long and deep subject and requires real intellect.
If you can prove to me you have some enlightened thoughts on the subject I will gladly reconsider engaging you in debate. OK? The ball is on your court. Let’s see what you’ve got.
ChristmasGhost: Do you ever tire of making yourself look like a complete ass?
You wrote: “GBS…..does that stand for “goldy’s bull shit”?????”
Then, you conclude the same paragraph with this: “aren’t you the one that morphs people’s names and then thinks you are terribly clever and hilarious when you are doing it?
”
C’mon, talk about being a hypocrite!! Admit it, you lied about Democrats and our ability to lead during WWII and you got your hand slammed in the cookie jar.
Fess up. You’ll look like the mature adult you think you are.
sgmmac @ 5 fumes about our grandstanding, dysfunctional U.S. Senate: “What are we paying these 50 Senators to do?”
It’s worse than you think—we’re paying for a hundred Senators.
:)
gbs:
Good luck with that, ghostie was never big on the reality based community. After all, she thinks that vaginas make women stupid!
If anyone ever doubts that the radical right fringe HATES our military here’s the proof:
ChristmasGhost @ 58 wrote:
“kosovo was so different than this war. this is actually a war.”
Hey, Ghost how do you think Capt. Sean O’Grady would take that comment? Or, the Marines who risked their lives to rescue a downed American fighter pilot? Or, the multitudes of other brave Americans who risked their lives fighting that war?
Why do you, and radicals like you, hate the people who serve in America’s armed forces, ChristmasGhost?
Just because President Clinton didn’t fuck it all up, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a REAL WAR.
Just because President Clinton, as Commander-in-Chief, executed General Wesley Clark’s war plan flawlessly doesn’t mean it wasn’t a real WAR.
Just because President Clinton didn’t let Milosevic get away doesn’t mean it wasn’t a REAL WAR.
Just Because President Clinton went to war with an exit strategy doesn’t mean it wasn’t a REAL WAR.
Just because President Clinton didn’t squander a half a trillion dollars doesn’t mean it wasn’t a REAL WAR.
Just because President Clinton didn’t allow war profiteering doesn’t mean it wasn’t a REAL WAR.
ChirstmasGhost you’re pathetic.
Goldy asks “…would you be so cavalier about our civil liberties if the enormous power of the state rested in the hands of a Democratic administration?”
I for one would not be cavalier. I would be terrified for my liberties! Leftists take them away under the guise of being “progressive” That usually means the state (i.e. the Elite Left)knows what’s best for you-always!
windie @ 63
You’re right about that. I’ve already dispelled ghostie about the WWII comment about how many American died.
You know what else? Vaginas don’t make women stupid, they make men act stupid. Am I right?
@66 sometimes I don’t think they need an excuse, but I’d agree with that ;)
“would you be so cavalier about our civil liberties if the enormous power of the state rested in the hands of a Democratic administration? Because if we still have a democracy, you’ve got to expect that it will eventually”
Goldy, one of the GOP’s basic beliefs is that the police state they’re creating will never rest in Democratic hands. That’s the whole point of what Katherine Harris, Ken Blackwell, and Lori Sotelo do … of what Diebold and Sequoia do … their role in all of this is to ensure permanent one-party government — so that only their party will ever control the scary government of unlimited and unaccountable powers they want to create.
“C’mon, talk about being a hypocrite!! Admit it, you lied about Democrats and our ability to lead during WWII and you got your hand slammed in the cookie jar.”
hand slammed in the cookie jar? are we having a metaphor crisis now?
that’s interesting.the hypocrite part that is. finally , a liberal poster who will admit that they are a hypocrite.
i lied about the abilities of democrats??? really…that’s interesting considering i don’t think modern “democrats” have any abilities other than lying and cheating…..at all.
what i pointed out was that the modern democrats have very little in common with the democrats during world war 2.
oh, please show me where i am wrong in this assumption.
and on a side note….how many of you rabid “democrats” had family that served our country during world war 2…or at any other time for that matter? goldy????
your other comments about women and what i think about my fellow females aren’t even worth addressing. i already said it…and you chose in your ignorance to misread it. not my problem that your reading/comprehension skills aren’t very good.
Buried deep in the NYT story is one of its most telling points:
“Earlier this week, the Pentagon said it was reviewing its use of a classified database of information about suspicious people and activity inside the United States after a report by NBC News said the database listed activities of anti-war groups that were not a security threat to Pentagon property or personnel.”
Anyone who thinks Bush is doing this to track down terrorists is horribly naive. The Bush administrative has proven itself, time and again, to be incredibly inept at catching terrorists. On the other hand, they’re quite handy at arresting (and torturing) the wrong people — and at letting bad guys slip through their fingers when they luck onto a real terrorist. In fact, it’s doubtful the Bushies are even interested in catching terrorists, given their consistent voting record against funding homeland security and Bush’s famous statement,
“I don’t know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority. I am truly not that concerned about him.” (March 13, 2002)
@49 See, when General Clark and President Clinton opted to use our military might, they did so wisely
Indiscriminately bombing innocent civilians from 40,000 ft. doesn’t work in every theater.
5
“The only thing they are accomplishing is grandstanding, pandering to their bases, and campaigning for themselves and their party.”
Excellent description of 95% of the Washington state GOP’s activities since the Nov. 2004 election!
David,
Yep, you are right! I think the value would probably pay for 300 hundred.
patheticlyingghost:
alot of the lefties on here served you moron.
I admit, I have a new idea. I think “christmasghost” is actually a script. it looks for keywords and spews back appropriate snippits for trolling purpose. I’m firmly convinced that theres no thought there at all.
12
“Are you really reading any books or talking about anything on the phone that would cause the NSA to think you are a Terrorist?”
Probably not, but I may be reading books and talking on the phone about something that might cause the NSA to think I’m a political opponent.
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broad.....index.html
…
Tell me how well bush is doing in the War on Terror again? And tell me how much better he is at winning wars than Clinton…..
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“Now the National Security Agency will be reading all of our comments here! Watch your language!”
Fuck Bush’s policies. Fuck the whole GOP. Fuck everybody who supports these fascist Constitution-hating bastards.
Now I’m gonna kick back and wait to see how long it takes for guys in cable trucks to show up and start pushing wires into the holes in Green Lake Park’s turf.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Roger, you keep making accusations without any basis in fact.
It’s disappointing really.
Betcha the Parks Department fascists with their live traps will be right behind them. Bunny Meadows, look out, here I come!
GBS………..again with the “no comprehension” skills……..
was kosovo a sanctioned [by the UN] war? did clinton get permission from everyone before he went in?
no? then i guess it wasn’t a “WAR” by your standards…now was it? sorry to use your own lame logic against you…but couldn’t resist.
of course kosovo was a war.don’t take the bait like such a striper……good grief!
but thanks for the laugh….
however….this war that we are presently fighting is very very different from that one. that was really more of a controlled police action [war], don’t you think? yes…there is a difference.
in case you have [conveniently] forgotten…it was mr. clinton that pulled the teeth of the CIA, it was clinton that didn’t grab osama when he had many chances, it was clinton that was so busy having sex with an intern and covering up his and his crazy wife’s messes that he completely forgot to take care of business.
as osama said “america is just a paper tiger”
and just where did he get an idea like that?
bill clinton.
he was a weak narcissist that had no business running this country.
and i’ll tell you what….if it had been bush in the white house back then doing exactly the same things as clinton…you would be blaming him for the planes flying into the towers. you know you would.
you don’t like bush…but bush has been having to clean up clinton’s messes since day one.
GBS @ 61
“You had your chance at getting in on the Republican Southern Strategy debate. Weren’t you the one that said you could tell us all about the politics in Philadelphia, MS?
Yeah, thought so. Annnnny ways, beating the crap out of another conservative regarding the death of the party of Lincoln and the birth of modern day conservatism isn’t on my agenda for today. It’s a long and deep subject and requires real intellect.
If you can prove to me you have some enlightened thoughts on the subject I will gladly reconsider engaging you in debate. OK? The ball is on your court. Let’s see what you’ve got.”
…….
So we are back to Phildelphia Missippi again.
Tell you what, go to the public library and get “Wittness in Phladelphia, by Florence Mars” once, you’ve read and digested that we can begin the process of discussing the politics of that area. This will also give you enough background to understand the history of both sides of the debate.
As to the question at hand, you are making a blanket statement that the current Democratic Party is akin to the the democratic party of 1945.
This is an ignorant and absurd remark; you’ve offered nothing in terms of backing this up with the exception of repeated refrences to cookies and cookie jars.
Additionaly, your consitution hating and military hating blathering is completely payed out.
71,
No offense, but I doubt that Desert Fox, which my liberal friends insist destroyed all weapons saddam had, didnt kill any innocents…
And on one is doing anything over there indiscriminately. Who is disrespecting the tropps now?
Well everybody, it’ll be interesting to see who wins the Prez in 2008. My guess is that the Dems will win, unless they run Hillary. I don’t think she’s electable. Even my Democrat in-laws don’t like her. Personally, I don’t have an opinion about her either way.
The comments from the Dems will shift from how bad Bush is to how bad Bush was and how hard it is to fix things. The Reps will talk about how we’re all goiong to hell in a handbaskets now that the Dems have the White House.
The fighting will continue as before. Anybody disagree?
83,
Aside from saying Hillary cannot win, I dont disagree with you.
I think she can win, i am just not sure she should.
78
What accusations? You mean this?
“Certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.”
http://www.washingtonmonthly.c.....003886.php
Hey Sven – I don’t have time to reiterate stuff that’s been reported in MSM for months or years, or link to a source for old information. It’s not my fault you shut yourself off from the world around you by listening only to Faux and Rush. That’s your problem. I’m not your personal babysitter.
84
Well, I’m 100% positive that Jeb Bush shouldn’t win, that Bill Frist shouldn’t win, that Rick Santorum shouldn’t win … the only Republican I might go along with is McCain, and your party will never nominate him.
So who do you think should win, Sven? Low Tax Looper? If your choice was between Hillary or Low Tax Looper, who would you vote for? C’mon, be honest now … admit it … you would vote for Low Tax Looper. Look how many Repubs voted for Mother Beater Irons and Child Molester West … Low Tax Looper actually won his race for county assessor. Republican voters have proven themselves ready and willing to vote for the most amazing pieces of shit ….
Oh roger, those nearly stung. Owie! you really got me!
Sorry, but they are also off track, and I won’t be deterred by insults. Nor are blanket ad hominem attakcs really persuasive.
But I appreciate the effort.
And I think McCain will likely emerge as the front runner in 2008. I cannot think of anyone else who could garner enough support, right now anyway.
Again, name calling and Ad hominem attacks. Can’t you just talk?
And why use Looper as a comparison to Hillary?
Try making a reasonable presentation and I will answer. Otherwise I will sit back and enjoy your show.
And no offense, but there are plenty of scummy democrats to counter with.
It isnt what we were discussing. My beef with Hillary is that she has yet to show me any reason to consider her qualified.
If in 2008 she is on the ballot, i will judge that by who she runs against. nothing less, and nothing more.
Hell, I never vote for anybody, I always vote against. ~W.C. Fields
In case any of you missed it the other day, here’s the lowdown on Low Tax Looper:
Down in Tennessee, they had a politician named Byron Looper with typical good ol’ boy credentials: After failing to graduate from West Point he moved to Georgia, joined the Ku Klux Klan, and ran for state representative as a Democrat. He lost, moved to Tennessee, changed his party affiliation to Republican, and lost another legislative race. But then, the Tennessee GOP got behind him and he was elected county tax assessor.
Looper’s loopy conduct in office led to a 14-count indictment for official misconduct, theft of services, and official oppression. He was charged with, among other things, offering to reduce tax assessments in exchange for political contributions; and also was sued by an ex-girlfriend who alleged he used his official position to steal her house.
Unfazed by these legal difficulties, Looper set his sights on higher office, simultaneously running for Congress and state senator. He finished dead last in the congressional primary, but as the only GOP candidate on the primary ballot for the state senate seat, he coasted to a general election faceoff against 5-term veteran Tommy Burks, a farmer and conservative Democrat.
The Looper-Burks race promised to be a yawner. Looper livened it up a bit by legally changing his name. Senator Burks now faced an opponent named Byron Low Tax Looper. After a minor media stir over this tidbit, the race went back to sleep and it appeared Senator Burks would sail to an easy re-election. So, on the morning of October 19, 1998, Looper drove out to Burks’ farm and murdered him.
Looper evidently thought killing his opponent would assure him of victory, due to an obscure Tennessee law that said if a candidate died within 30 days of the election, he must be removed from the ballot and could not be replaced. This meant Looper would be the only candidate on the ballot. However, Low Tax Looper underestimated Mr. Burks’ widow. She ran as a write-in candidate and defeated Looper, 30,252 to 1,531. Mrs. Burks remains a popular member of the Tennessee state senate to this day.
The outcome for Low Tax Looper was less rosy. A road crew found the gun, and witnesses linked him to the shooting. He was convicted in a 2000 trial and is serving life without parole in the Tennessee State Penitentiary.
In his opening statement to the jury, Looper’s defense attorney summed up Byron Low Tax Looper’s political career thusly: “He was the first Republican elected in Putnam County, and he made quite a name for himself.”
91
“Nor are blanket ad hominem attakcs really persuasive.”
Then why do you guys do it?
@78
Well, since a batch of them allegedly went to the NY Times, your politics probably is the same as at least half of them!
Windie,
Your salan link makes me watch an ad to see it. I am opposed to commercials, that’s why I have satellite and TIVO
93
I know who he is. It was a pretty obvious use of him to try and accuse me of only voting for a murderer over a democrat.
I dont accept it.
And @94
I dont.
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“So While I am having my milk and cookies keep repeating, ‘ya, I kicked his ass on that'”
You mean like how you kicked Roger Rabbit’s ass at Drinking Liberally? (snicker)
(chuckle)
(snort)
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
@96 damn sorry, I thought I’d skipped that.
I’ll grab the text:
Afghan teacher murdered for teaching girls
In southern Afghanistan, a secondary-school teacher, known by the single name Laghmani, was taken from his classroom by two armed men and shot to death at the school gate, Reuters reported today.
His crime? Teaching girls. The prime suspects: Taliban guerrillas. Laghmani, a teacher in Helmand province, had ignored previous orders by the Taliban to stop instructing girls. Taliban guerrillas have also reportedly burned down other schools in the middle of the night for the same offense.
We’ve said this before, and we’ll say it again: Didn’t the U.S.-led forces supposedly “liberate” the women and girls of Afghanistan back in 2001? Let’s hope that other teachers there will continue to be as brave as the late Laghmani.
— Katharine Mieszkowski
38
I thought the term was “metrosexual”……. women really like “ubersexual” men, not metrosexual men.
ChristmasGhost:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Please wake me up when you’re done. **Yaaaaawn** You’re Swiftboating techniques are are played out. What’s the matter, no more character assignation plays coming out of the RNC?
Yeah, ONLY republicans served in WWII. Oh, thank God for the mighty Republicans who served like:
Dick “I had other priorities than military service” Cheney.
George “Daddy put me to the head of the line in the TANG” Bush.
Sean Hannity
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O’Reilly
Michael Medved
Michael “Savage” Weiner (what a joke)
Mr. Cynical AKA MS Chickenhawk
And the rest of the cowards that are too numerous to list.
John McCain once said “I slept better in the POW camps of North Viet Nam knowing that George Bush was defending the Texas Gulf Coast.”
John McCain, now there’s a Republican I can respect.
What is your obsession with Looper? It doesn’t look like he really had the support of that many Republicans. That to me is a positive for the Republicans, not a negative.
Michael,
Haven’t we discussed the bombing from 40,000 feet above before?
Provisions of the Patriot law that allow obtaining library and other personal records without convincing a judge of some connection a terrorist or spy, and the automatic gag order when someone gets a “national security letter” were mailiciously kept in per the usual Bush administration “negotiating” technique. Simple modificatons to those areas of the law would have gotten it passed.
Someday Bush will stop holding his breath until he turns blue. It always worked so well with Barbara, after all. That change will likely happen after 2009, however.
windie @ 99 –
There’s something wrong with these radical Islamic chuckeheads. I remember some footage of executions being done at a soccer stadium in Kabul. This crazy dude with a black turban blew this poor lady’s brains out with an AK-47 right there in front of God & everybody. What’s with the lunatics?
GBS….try to at least pretend to stay on topic okay? otherwise you just look stupid.
i never said only republicans served in ww2. so your point is?
ah…the usual. BS BS BS BS BS…….
i was asking a simple question, because i am curious. how many rabid liberals come from families that had a father [or mother] serve our country especially during war time.
now that’s a pretty simple question even for you, don’t you think?
or are you afraid to answer?
my experience has been…very few.
ghost: the fact that you pretend to not know the answer to that is really sad. Everyone knows a large number of people on here (especially the lefties interestingly) are vets.
lib: who knows? Sad to see those liberties slipping away and the taliban gaining power tho’
Windie,
Yes, we did. But unfortunately that doesn’t mean that the Taliban is gone from Afganistan, they are still there and so are we, and lots of soldiers from other countries too. To assume that the Islamic zealots have all been eradicated is as crazy as believing that they have all found Jesus!
The real sad story is that these lunatics are all over the world in dozens of countries raping, butchering, and terrorizing anyone who isn’t a muslim.
sgmmac: The point is, the taliban is regaining power… And a major reason is that we mostly abandoned Afghanistan for Iraq.
2 countries slipping through my fingers… Just another example for the people who think that the Republicans are the great warriors in government.
Libertarian
That would be in front of her husband and her kids. As a matter of fact, the Taliban used to make a family member do the killing. She was actually one of the fortunate ones, she at least got a quick death for her alleged adultery. Many other Muslim women accused of adultery get stoned to death.
@103 Yes, I think we decided that we should only bomb countries that were a threat to the United States…oops.
Prr @ 84
Do you know what the word “akin” means?
I am not saying we are “similar” or “like” the Democrats of 1945. What I am expressly saying is that it doesn’t matter if you’re talking about 1776 and our Founding Fathers, i.e. Thomas Jefferson, or FDR, JFK, or Bill Clinton. We are the same continuous party from day ONE. We are the ONLY party that has been around since day ONE.
I’m not going to divorce the two eras because they are not two different parties, we are the one and the same party of FREEDOM and LIBERTY for ALL.
Oh, yeah, and we KICK ASS in war, unlike Bush, who is, without exception, a failure as Commander in Chief. Period.
Now, let’s hear your brilliant remarks on MS politics.
@112 Oh, yeah, and we KICK ASS in war
That would be news to JKF and LBJ. Now Lincoln, on the other hand…
Windie,
I got your point and actually there was story on it on Fox in the last week or so. I won’t tell you that the Iraq or Afganistan war were perfect, those words will never come out of my mouth. We haven’t abandoned Afganistan for Iraq, it may seem that way from the press coverage or the talking points, but the soldiers are there just as they have been since the beginning.
We never had a lot of soldiers in Afganistan, the geography doesn’t lend itself to a lot of the typical warfighting doctrine.
Artful Dodger Ghost @ 106
You’re sphere of influence must be like Bush’s. A teeny, tiny bubble. Some of the most Rabid Right Wing trolls out there haven’t served. I just named a few of them, unlike you.
Like Windie said, there are plenty of vets on this site. Plenty of vets who’ve served in combat. Given the number of people who served during WWII the odds say that many, many of their children, grandchildren, and great-grand children are Democrats.
So really, what is your point? What are YOU trying to infer about Democrats? From penning the constitution to Omaha beach to fighting in Iraq we’ve been there every step of the way for our country. Have Republicans?
Fuck Stick @ 113
Joe Kennedy used his political pull to get his son, JFK, to front line combat. Perhaps you’ve heard about the story of PT 109?
Now, George Bush, used his fathers political pull to avoid combat in Viet Nam.
See the difference in your little mind?
michael….very good point. but you’ll never get any of these fools to admit it. talk about going into a war to further your political gains…..JFK.
when he wasn’t shooting up…that is, or cheating on his wife, or lying to congress…wow maybe bill clinton really is JFK come back to life!
man I didn’t know jfk did smack! Live and learn!
Bush snorted cocaine at Camp David when his Daddy was playing president.
Laura Bush sold pot in college. Oh, yeah, she also T-boned her ex-boyfriend in a cross walk and killed him. Don’t ever piss that bitch off, she’ll kill you.
JFK did not do smack, He did Marilyn!
@ 119
Haven’t you learned yet that you cannot believe everything LyingGhost spews?
JKF didn’t “shoot up,” but I’ll have to give you the Marilyn Monore thing.
Dumb ass @115
The conversation was about presidents, as JFK was president during the Vietnam War. Try to stick with us.
I don’t remember JFK as being the President to make Vietnam fail, wasn’t it Johnson who escalated it and tried to micro-manage the war from his office in Washington?
There were accusations of substance abuse against JFK, including accusations he did coke with Peter Lawford.
I dont think any have been proven, they are more in the memoirs of people from that era.
He was on a harsh diet of prescription stuff, including sleeping pils, downers and pain pills and an unproven accusation he took amphetamines.
Yep, I think so. Regardless Vietnam was started By Truman, a democrat, Continued by JFK and escalted by Johnson who were also Democrats, the more continuatoin and until it being ended by Nixon a republican.
Finally something bipartisan…..
@ 121
Um, uh, duh, ok, what ever you say. I was talking about Thomas Jefferson, FDR, JFK, FDR, Bush Sr., Clinton and W. I didn’t realize the conversation was about presidents.
OK, Gee sorry you going way too fast for me.
You dip shit.
I don’t remember JFK as being the President to make Vietnam fail, wasn’t it Johnson who escalated it and tried to micro-manage the war from his office in Washington?
Comment by sgmmac— 12/16/05 @ 3:18 pm
The true failure of Viet Nam was in LBJ hands and the War protestors. I could have been won but don’t tell the Wabbit That.
XGhost @ 83
You wrote:
“was kosovo a sanctioned [by the UN] war? did clinton get permission from everyone before he went in?
no? then i guess it wasn’t a “WAR” by your standards…now was it? sorry to use your own lame logic against you…but couldn’t resist.”
You are right, it wasn’t a war sanctioned by the U.N. You are also correct that he didn’t get “everyone’s” permission before he went in.
It was still a “WAR” by my standards, though. Now, let’s discuss lame logic, namely yours.
The difference between President Clinton and Bush, is that President Clinton was a true leader on the world stage. He was able to go on the offensive and attack a former WARSAW country without the whole world going nuts. He actually LED like the true statesman he is. He made a case for war. It was based on facts. He didn’t lie about it. The U.N. didn’t object and neither did our allies. In fact, they fully participated and didn’t thumb their collective noses at us.
Then, he followed the WAR plan that included an exit strategy to a successful conclusion in, what? 78 days, or something close to that.
In a nutshell, President Clinton’s intelligence, being straight with the American people when it really mattered, and his leadership skills are the difference between success and failure. President Clinton was successful in war, foreign policy and domestic issues. Bush, well, he’s following his pattern of failure when in an chief executive position; it is after all his track record.
Hey Windie,
Kiro online has a article about the arrest of a couple from Morocco who has allegedly held their niece captive to work as a slave in their expresso stand in Lakewood. The girl has been here 4 years and was promised a good education in exchange for some light houseowork. I wonder how many other indentured servants there is in the US?
Sven @125
Regardless Vietnam was started By Truman,
Actually, it was a
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Sven @125
Meant to link this @126.
Sgmmac
Did you hear the pop . The Patriot Act can directly impact my life .I am an organizer and provision of the act were used in Cal.against organizers.I will post when i find the article until then read this .http://web.greens.org/s-r/28/28patriot.html
And you talked about the chain of command at Abu Grahib, the shrub sits alone at the top and he is ultimately responsible . Sgmmac you need to quit defending these assholes and remember the oath we took to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic .
Dale @ 132
From your Union link:
It is a slippery notion one person’s “terrorist” is another’s “freedom fighter.”
No. If you kill as a method to further your cause, or destroy the livelihood of workers, you are a terrorist. If you do not engage in such, you have nothing to worry about. But rest easy, since the Patriot Act is about to be history…
133
So America was founded by terrorists?
So if a U.S. president arms rightwing death squads in Central America, this means Reagan was a terrorist?
@128 Then, he followed the WAR plan that included an exit strategy to a successful conclusion in, what? 78 days, or something close to that.
When can we look forward to that?
In a nutshell, President Clinton’s intelligence
Intelligence?? An aspirin factory here, a Chinese Embassy there, Clinton’s intelligence never faltered.
125
“Vietnam was started By Truman, a democrat, Continued by JFK and escalted by Johnson who were also Democrats, the more continuatoin and until it being ended by Nixon a republican”
Not exactly. Started by Eisenhower, a Republican, continued by JFK and LBJ, Democrats, and ended by Nixon, a cut-and-run Republican.
Dale,
What are you organizing? Are you delving into illegal activities? Are you organizing to blow up some hummers or a mink farm? I really don’t give a fig if someone spies on me, because I know that I am not doing anything wrong. I do cherish my rights to privacy and I am unwilling to let them go so easily. However; I am more concerned about all of the classified material that is jumping into the hands of the NY Times, I am more concerned about the thousands upon thousands of people across America who are losing their homes and their businesses to greedy city councils who want to increase their tax base and greedy City Executives who pass laws telling people they can’t pull blackberry bushes off of their property.
It amazes me to see everyone in this state carry on about rights taken away by the Federal Government while they scream at their city councils and state representatives to take away the same rights.
The bottom line is that there has to be a balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of others and society as a whole.
The nonsense today in the Senate is ridiculous and outrageous. Passing the Patriot Act (13 articles) is a slippery slope for Republicans and the Democrats blocking it is also a slippery slope. It was all political grandstanding and I am tired of it. They will continue to negotiate – maybe. If it expires and there is a major terrorist attack in this country, the Democrats will get slammed with blame. Now, the news is saying that the House Republicans just forced another yes or no vote on withdrawing from Iraq…….
Will they never learn to work together? Everyone of them needs to be spanked!
137
Yes, he was a cut and run Republican!
RR @134
So America was founded by terrorists?
You discovered the flaw, and earn my approbation. You can give it back if you wish…
I suppose I should have qualified the point, but I doubt it is necessary.
Not exactly. Started by Eisenhower, a Republican, continued by JFK and LBJ, Democrats, and ended by Nixon, a cut-and-run Republican.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/16/05 @ 5:33 pm
To be fair, Roger, Truman did authorize aid to the French in their neocolonial effort to retain their empire. Nixon had already run from the White House when Saigon fell under Ford’s (stumble and fall republican) watch.
gbs clinton was straight with the american public where the fuck do you buy your drugs man you need to find some new shit the stuff your taking has fried what little gray matter that you mite of had.
gbs here is to your reply YAWN
@142 gbs clinton was straight with the american public
Do mean like the Racak massacre in Kosovo, which never happened?
We should remember what happened in the village of Racak…Innocent men, women, and children were taken from their homes to a gully, forced to kneel in the dirt, sprayed with gunfire — not because of anything they had done, but because of who they were.
–William Jefferson Clinton
…except that it never happened.
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“gbs clinton [sic] was straight with the american [sic] public where [sic] the fuck do you buy your drugs [sic] man you need to find some new shit [sic] the stuff your [sic] taking has fried what little gray matter that you mite [sic] of [sic] had.[sic]”
That’s pretty good: 9 errors in one sentence. Where did you go to school?
I’ve never heard of Racak, but it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that it never happened. Do you really believe that President Bush is the only President that has received faulty intelligence? The CIA, FBI, NSA and all of those other unnamed sources don’t talk to each other, they run around acting like Dick Tracey and Super Sneak thinking they have the “only” intelligence. They ceased to be intelligent a long time ago.
The debachery, the murders and the horrors of Kosovo certainly were’t isolated into one or two villages that the majority of people were slaughtered. It was an ongoing ethnic cleansing on a country than went on for years.
Michael @ 148 claims: “…except that it never happened.”
Which, of course, is a filthy lie. What next? Assertions that Milosevick is, like Bush, “just a regular guy”?
Innocent men, women, and children were taken from their homes…
37/40 of the people discovered were men in their 20s and 30s. No blood was found near the place where they supposedly died, despite alleged gruesome decapitations. No bullet casings. Was the area sanitized? Not likely, considering that the village was under KLA control. You don’t stick around to clean up where you are likely to take a bullet in the back. Also, every single one of these 37 corpses of young men was found to have gunpowder residue on their hands, suggesting that they died in a two-sided gunfight, not “taken from their homes to a gully, forced to kneel in the dirt, sprayed with gunfire” as Clinton/Albright would have us believe.
@148 Despite all the tales of the mass graves in Kosovo, what we actually found when we got there was a total of 391 people who had been killed by violence or “ethnic cleansing.” More than 500 civilians had been killed by our own bombs.
Michael,
Bombs dropped from high altitudes do tend to have a lot of collateral damage. As for your numbers, they may be correct, but they don’t reflect the nearly 1 million people that he terrorized, robbed, raped, burned down their houses, and displaced. Milosovic waged a death campaign on all Kosovo Albanians. He is guilty of crimes against humanity. Would he have been happy if he had gotten rid of all of the Albanians?
Who would he have targeted next? Would Sadaam have stopped with taking Kuwait? The world will not sit by and watch another holocaust. When MEN stop trying to take over the entire planet, wars may stop.
@150: You are the one who asserted it didn’t happen. So did it happen or did it not? The rest is just so much debunked hogwash.
@151: More than 500 civilians had been killed by our own bombs.
And from this fact you conclude exactly what? That the bombings were unjustified? If that is your standard, then we should have left Iraq some time ago.
Too bad 9/11 didn’t hit the NY Times Building. 200 dead “progressives”! I bet their editorial tone would be just a little different. JCH
mac@129 quite a few probably, but I’m missing your point :p
@152 It was proven in the Milosevich trial. He was convicted of orchestrating the “genocide” of 391 people. But NATO killed 500 people before they figured it out. I know you liberals are on board with “To save the city, we had to destroy it,” but come on.
HRH FUCK YOU ANY ERRORS.
@153, Windie,
My point was simply to tell you since we were discussing the taliban and women and girls rights/abuses and Afganistan. The majority of Americans have no idea how well they live in this county. I am constantly surprised when I see elements of society that I thought were long gone rear their ugly heads.