I have been researching the engineering reports on the Alaska Way Viaduct, the 520 floating bridge, and other fast deteriorating bridges and structures in WA state… and the more I learn, the more frightened I get. It will not require a major earthquake or other natural disaster to bring down some of these structures: one of our run-of-the-mill, winter wind storms could easily sink the 520 bridge, while the Viaduct is slowly toppling over onto the waterfront, all on its lonesome. And yet, one of the typically smug taunts I routinely get from I-912 proponents whenever I raise these issues is, “If it’s so dangerous, why is it still open to traffic?”
Hmm.
And so I would like to make an appeal to any attorneys in my audience, or other concerned citizens willing to contribute materially or financially, to join me in suing WSDOT and other responsible public agencies to immediately shut down the Viaduct, the 520 bridge and other structures that present an imminent danger to public safety. Really.
I suppose there are some in this region who simply do not believe that these structures are unsafe, or who are willing to gamble that “the big one” won’t strike during their lifetime, or at least, when they or their loved ones are traversing one of these hazardous roads. It is human nature to procrastinate in the face of possible, yet uncertain, deadly disasters (hence, New Orleans inadequate levees.) But how many voters are willing to cancel or delay the state transportation improvement package when faced with the imminent threat of adding an hour or more to their daily commute… each way?
If the Viaduct closes, it will not only spill traffic onto the surface streets, but onto an already congested I-5… which will in turn push traffic onto the even more congested I-405. And if the 520 bridge closes, I-90 will crawl to a virtual standstill for much of the day. Close them both at the same time, and… well… good luck to those regularly commuting across or around Lake Washington.
Don’t get me wrong; this is not just some Machiavellian ploy. These roads really are that unsafe, and if the only alternative is inaction, we would be doing a public service by shutting them down. But in the weeks leading up to the vote on I-912, something needs to be done to drive home to voters the truly dangerous state of our decaying infrastructure… and I’m not afraid to be the one cutting the reality check.
No doubt a successful lawsuit would deliver a huge blow to our regional economy, but I have talked to several elected officials who would privately welcome somebody taking such a politically untenable action. In the wake of Hurricane Katrina our collective paralysis is unconscionable, and anybody who understands the engineering reports understands the moral imperative to act now.
The 520 bridge is brittle and crumbling, its pontoons springing leaks faster than they can be patched up. The Viaduct’s columns rest on unstable soil, and no amount of reinforcement can keep it from falling over. These and other structures are public hazards that need to be replaced immediately, or removed entirely… and I intend to make my case in a court of law.
I have neither the legal training nor the financial resources to pursue this on my own, so if you can substantially contribute money or legal expertise, or know of others who can, please drop me an email. I hope to file suit by early October, and if I can generate enough interest to proceed, I will open a “legal offense fund” so that others may contribute according to their means.
Of course, none of this would be necessary if Republican “leaders” like Dino Rossi would take a responsible, public stance on this dire issue, persuading their core constituents to vote no on the foolishly obstructionist I-912. But barring such an uncharacteristic fit of candor, I will be forced to follow the only lead Rossi has ever given the people of this state, and turn to the courts to achieve an objective I might not be able win at the polls.
Goldy,
Don’t shut down the AWV or 520: just put a sign on them that says “Use at your own risk.” That way, if the structures collapse or sink, the folks on them will at least have been warned. Also, it might be a way to help prevent the trial lawyers of the state from getting richer.
I know this is an impratical though from most folks’ prespectives, so let the vitriolic comments fly!
“Goldy”…….”We must spend more money for union jobs and “guvment” contracts!! It’s….It’s…….It’s for the children!!!” So, greedy taxpayers in the private sector, pay even more, and if you disagree you are racist and hate children!!
“And so I would like to make an appeal to any attorneys in my audience, or other concerned citizens willing to contribute materially or financially, to join me in suing WSDOT and other responsible public agencies to immediately shut down the Viaduct, the 520 bridge and other structures that present an imminent danger to public safety. Really.”
In other words. Goldy is looking for a lawyer to repsent this case and a financial Angel to completely pay for it, so Goldy can propel his own political agenda and use this as a springboard to get his name in the papers.
Nice…..
Goldy—
So now you are an Engineer?? What are your qualifications??
None??? That’s what I thought!!!
Go ahead and file the lawsuit. It’s actually not a bad idea because it will hopefully force some impartial review of the documents that were prepared. The problem is I believe the documents you are referring to were paid for with WSDOT dollars and the firms were hired by the WSDOT.
You may also want to look into the firm that did the study you refer to. Do they do other work for the WSDOT??? Do the stand to do work on the actual AWV either directly with an engineering contract OR as a subcontractor for some other engineering firm. On a controversial project of this magnitude, I think we can ALL agree that it is extremely important to flush out ALL potential conflicts of interest and have full disclosure. Simply TOO MUCH money involved.
Tell us Goldy…who are the firms invoved in those reports you refer to???
What were they paid to generate those reports?
Who hired them and paid them?
Have they done previous work for WSDOT??
Will they be involved in this or other WSDOT projects as a result of this GasTax money?????
Thank you.
Hell, I won’t even call you a LEFTIST PINHEAD on this one…..if you promise to be a bit more CYNICAL and questioning of the SOURCE DATA and who is providing it.
prr @ 2
… And find yet another way for the Democrats to line their pockets with taxpayer dollars (via lawsuit against the state). And while the suit may appear to be for “specific performance,” I’m sure the sneaky lawyers will find a way to pad their own pockets with fees, pad the pockets of other Dems with “fees for (spurious) research and services” and maybe even find some way to put a few ducats in Goldy’s pocket for his “time and effort.”
me @ 4
Unless, of course, Goldy is willing to state publicly RIGHT HERE that he will refuse ANY compensation of any kind resulting from this lawsuit.
obsolete mark@4,5
just because you guys live in a culture of unmitigated selfishness and greed doesn’t mean that we do.
I think suing to close the viaduct in what seems to me an attempt to prove a point is silly at best, but your attempts to impugn Goldy’s motives strike me as insincere at best, and very vary slimy.
I assume Goldy that you don’t drive on the viaduct or the 520 bridge since you believe that they are so dangerous?
Why, since they’ve apparently known it’s been “dangerous” since the late 80’s, has it not been a priority till NOW?
How is it they can’t afford (snicker) fix what they claim needs to be fixed but they can afford ‘wild animal trails’ over/under/across teh roadway?
How is it they can’t afford (snicker) more general use roadways but they can afford barely used HOV lanes?
Why is it they neglect to mention that WHEN 912 passes, they will still have more than 4 BILLION of our tax dollars with which to play, fritter away and line their pals pockets?
HE’S NOT GOING TO TAKE A POSITION ON I-912. ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!
mark1:
hows it hurt to ask?
…and calm down, I can hear you screaming at your computer from here.
passing wind(ie) @ 6
The Left has had a long-standing relationship with the government that has allowed them to line their pockets — from Tamany Hall all the way up to the 2005 closed shop for WA State workers. You kids love to accuse Corporate America (which, BTW, is both Left and Right) of suckling at the government teat, but you are NO different.
And what is with knocking MY nick? The obsolete “mark” is the Lefty putting up fraudulent (and stupid) posts pretending to be me. Mark is a centrist Republican. Wacko Lefty posts are the fraudulent work of Mark the Left Nut.
This is not about asking Rossi anything
This is about the fact that the illigitimate queen will have her blonde roots handed to her in the next election so the fringies want to “get somethign” on Rossi.
The only thing is the fringies aren’t honest enough to admit it.
Goldy,
You’ve taken action in the past when idiots made phony posts using established posters’ usernames. As you may have noticed, some newbie (or one of the MPD-afflicted existing posters) has been spewing all kinds of crazy talk in my name. Please resolve.
Thanks!
– The Real Mark
And actually, I hope we get to Where’s Rossi, day 742… keeping our Dino’s name front and center sure does hightlight (y)our MIA illegitimate queen.
Windi@6
“I think suing to close the viaduct in what seems to me an attempt to prove a point is silly at best, but your attempts to impugn Goldy’s motives strike me as insincere at best, and very vary slimy.”
If you have not figured this out yet, Goldy is nothing but an attention whore.
If Goldy’s motives were true, he would be putting a 2nd mortage on his house in ordert o make this happen.
If you’ll notice, Goldy like free stuff or using this blog to get attention, so he can somehow make a profit off of this.
I am willing to bet one of the reasons Goldy pushed for drinking liberally to be held at the Montlake Ale house (gasp, a smoking establishment) is due to some arrangment where he gets free drinks.
I find it amusing that Goldy looks to a Republican to take leadership, and one that hold no public office. If he is serious he should camp out on Gregoire’s door step until she takes action, like Cindy Sheehan did.
This would be a lot cheaper than lawyers and law suits, and a lot quicker. Plus, think of all the free publicity he could get!
I’m serious – if these structures are truly the danger presented here, and the our current ELECTED officials take no action, then they are guilty of negligent homicide.
Janet S–
Not another VIGIL!!!!
Gregoire is trying to prop up her popularity by leaving the State and traveling around the world and being against things like Child Abuse, Domestic Violence and capitalizing on fear-mongering. Gregoire avoids all controversy….and only is quickly and occassionally trotted out as a cheerleader for the GasTax…..no leadership WHATSOEVER. Completely afraid of subject herself to tough questioning. Instead, Gregoire relies on one of LENIN’S USEFUL IDIOTS, a legend in his own alleged mind fringe LUNATIC LEFTIST PINHEAD Blogger to bring home the PORK!!! Doesn’t she know that whatshisname….the fringe LUNATIC LEFTIST PINHEAD Blogger is Jewish!!!!!!!!!!
Let me get this straight…. somebody with zero engineering background read a few extremely complex engineering reports and made a technical decision that leads him to want to sue the state? What’s the Yiddish term for this…. something akin to chutzpah I think…
Besides me, who else on this board is a licensed engineer?
18.But, but………Goldy is a Democrat, and like Maxine Waters, Jesse Jackson, Barb Boxer, and Anthony Weinerstein, he can say anything and not be held accountable. [See the latest from Senator Chuckie Boy Schuuuuuummmmeeeerrr, [D-Neeewww Yaaaark] Digging credit and background dirt, but since he is a Jewish black Democrat….[Hey, Bill Clinton was black, too!], is will not be held responsible.
MTR @ 18:
Could be quite a few yiddish words for to apply for what Goldy is attempting:
kibitz, shlemil, makhn ash un porekh, golem, shmendrek, nebekh, meshugine, ganif, farblondzhet…but probably most accurate – kakameyme.
Have YOU read the engineering reports, Mark?
prr @ 19
Only a few of those are adjectives, which would the the only ones that would “apply [to] what Goldy is attempting.” Are you ALSO calling Goldy a nebekh, a ganif, a shmendrek, a golem, and a shlemil?
Are you saying that somehow Goldy will destroy (makhn ash un porekh) something?
I guess I don’t get it. Are you just trying to personally insult Goldy? Fine discourse.
Curtis,
Firtsly, blow me.
Secondly, If I need to go and define all of these for you, then it takes the fun out of it.
BTW, it was noy a sentence, just a number of Yiddish words that would apply to Goldy…As to makhn ash un porekh, yes, Goldy is a detroyer of truth.
Curtis – No, why would I? I trust other licensed PEs. I do not trust moonbats.
Here’s the way it works… facilities used by the public must be declared to be safe by a licensed Professional Engineer. For example, next time you get on elevator, look at the certificate on the wall. It shows that the elevator has been inspected, and a licensed engineer has deemed it safe for use. That engineer puts his license on the line everytime he uses it, and he is legally liable for declarations he makes. (In some cases, his employer may purchase liability insurance for him.)
The same thing applies to AWV or 520 or any other public structure. So if a licensed engineer is willing to sign the certification document, then I’m OK with it.
Only an ignorant moonbat would attempt the stunt being suggested here.
FYI for those of you who may not know…. only a few engineers are licensed. To become a licensed engineer, you have to pass two 8 hour exams. Typical pass rates on the exams are about 40%, so they are very difficult… as they should be. Only a small fraction of degreed engineers even attempt to become licensed because it is so difficult. In fact, you have to apply to be allowed to sit for the exams, and a review board determines if you are even qualified to take it.
A vigil would have the benefit of being immediate and visible. If the structures are dangerous, then the ELECTED officials could be embarrased into holding an emergency session and reallocate the existing funds.
Of course, Bush ignored Sheehan for the nut case that she is. Could be that Gregoire would do the same.
@ 14 Mark:
I hope you’re not referring to me; that’s why I use “Mark1”. Thanks.
@11 Windie:
I am calm. You and your brethren are the ones making a big deal out of this BS. New topic……………….
Goldy; if you are really comitted; how about standing on the 520 overpass(es) some rainy night with a banner? Not just sitting comfortably on your sofa.
@ 28
Excellent idea.
Even better would be for Goldy to wander into traffic on a rainy night.
I would financially support that form of protest.
prr @ 23
“Firstly,” forget it. You’ll have to obtain your sexual release somewhere else, presumably for pay.
“Secondly,” Who asked you to defone them? I am not the idiot you project me to be. Think back. You might recall that I was asking if you were calling Goldy those personal insults. The answer would be a) yes, or b) no. If no, then I would wonder why you included them, knowing, as I am sure you do, that they are Yiddish insults when applied to a person, and they make no sense at all (as I am sure again you know) when applied to “what Goldy is attempting.”
Thirdly, I never did think it was a sentence, lacking as it did any verb except destroy, and consisting mostly of a string of epithets, although that DOES all too often pass as sentence writing in here.
As to makhn ash un porekh, yes, Goldy is a detroyer of truth.
Thanks for the clarification. Too bad it would have taken all the fun out of it for you to be clear.
mark1@27
All caps and 8 exclamation points doesn’t say calm to me
But I”ll repeat my question, How does Goldy’s vigil do harm to you that you’re so insistant on stopping it?
and to Omark: Whatever. The guys clearly not pretending he’s you. I think your name paranoia is funny tho’… Thats why you don’t choose a common name in the first place, silly! Your obsession with it is kinda wierd however. Unless you believe that the guy is purposely mocking you, in which case… I dunno what to say, ‘cept ‘you’re delusional’.
windie @ 31 … or if Mark and mark are one and the same person… which makes it REALLY weird heh heh
@32
whats the old line? “If thats true, there’s a Nobel prize in it for all of us”
My original Yiddish question at 19 was something like “what is Yiddish for “fucking idiot””.
Whoops. Never noticed the connection. Thanks.
Sorry, prr, for not getting it.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Yiddish has “putz” for that. Still, it’s a pretty bad thing to call someone in Yiddish.
prr @ 29
“Even better would be for Goldy to wander into traffic on a rainy night. I would financially support that form of protest. “
Oh… I see you are moving beyond “spitting” on Vietnam vets these days (“You mean like all those women and little kids you killed back in ‘Nam tough guy?”).
Asshole!
Way to go Goldy. If the structures are unsafe they should be shut down. But why stop at a simple lawsuit? While you are into vigils and quasi-campaigns why not organize a boycott of the affected roads, or have a hunger strike? Get all of the I-912 opponents to stop using the AWV and 520 bridge and have some way to publicize the effort. A hunger strike would actually take more guts and stamina, yet would yield more visits from the media.
Or Goldy, do some vigil for TB and Hepatitis, asian flu, avian flu, whatever. Or vigial against McD’s and heart disease
Or organize teachers to protest sodas at school (oh yeah already doing that)
Mark1 @ 26
Not referring to you. Some putz (since we’re all into Yiddish today) has been posting as “Mark,” my nick. So far, we have you (Mark1), marks, Mark the Redneck, me (Mark) and the schmuck (posting as “Mark”), who should be referred to as “Mark the Left Nut” (multiple meanings intended) until s/he does something to differentiate him-/herself from the “law-abiding citizens” on this board.
Goldy – Here’s a legal strategy for you:
Basically what you’re saying is that you disagree with the assessment of the PE(s) who certified the structures as safe. If that’s what you believe (based on a cursory review of documents in a field where you zero knowledge and zero experience), you can file a complaint against the engineers through the Washington State Department of Licensing alleging professional incompetence. They can do an investigation, and if you’re right, they’ll pull the licenses of the engineers. Once their licenses are invalidated, the certificates on the structures will be invalid also, forcing the state to close them. This will cost you nothing to do, and would make your point and accomplish your objectives.
Let us know how it goes….
Mark the Redneck @ 40
“This will cost you nothing to do, and would make your point and accomplish your objectives.”
No, that would not accomplish the objectives. Are you just playing stoopid here, or what?
windie @ 31
I have a number of answers to your post. In no particular order…
1.) It is the principle of the thing. It is wrong for people to fake-post as you or Donna or Little Bunny Rog-Rog… or Cynical or Puddy or Goldy… or marks or me — especially if the fake-poster takes a position contrary to the real person’s beliefs. How can you have a long-term discussion with someone when you don’t know if “their” profanity-laced diatribes or childish, naive ramblings were faked or not?
2.) [In best 3rd-grader voice] I was “Mark” first, so THERE!
3.) It really isn’t a big deal and ignoring it will likely make the putz go away. I’m just hoping Goldy does the right thing and fixes the problem.
nowonder @ 37 and righton @ 38
Both suggestions seem to be lame attempts at satire. Exceptionally lame.
Professor BongHit @ Evergreen – Try using coherent sentences. What doesn’t it accomplish?
@42
This is a massive tangent, but seriously. He’s not posting as you, he’s using the same name, which is presumably also his. Doesn’t matter I guess tho, its all up to Goldy :p
dj@43
theres alot of ‘satire’ on this page from the righties… all of it lame. A sense of humor isn’t something you can fake, unfortunately.
Boy, have I been wrong.
Now that I’ve really done my research, I’ve realized that George Bush was right in going into Iraq. Cindy Sheehan should just shut her pie hole. The Democrats that are using Katrina for political fundraising should all be kicked out of office. Howard Dean has a 666 on the back of his skull.
.
[Not fun being forged, huh?]
Hey BongHit @41 – Are you a licensed engineer? I am. If you’re not, you are unqualified to speak on this subject. Just like the discussion on left and right joins…
Goldy-
PLEASE move to Scoop.
If I want a right wing comment thread…I go to minnow’s site. Or barfballs. Or wingnut daily.
These clowns vomit up the SAME tired rightwing BULLSHIT that DOESN’T WORK!
Reaganomics is like Soviet style Communism in reversed. It didn’t work either. Is that so fucking hard to figure out?
Fix the shit that needs to be fixed…get/give people living wage jobs so they can support a family and have real ownwership in a society. Take care of the babies and the old people.
Remember folks…it’s
WE the People.
Not
ME the People.
…self centered shitheads.
@46
you know the difference right? Are you really that stupid?
He’s not pretending to be you, he’s using the same name.
I feel pretty safe that people will know when someone is pretending to be me…. Because I”m not an insecure moron.
Mark @ 42,
I agree with your point 1. I have commented to “Lefty Mark” before suggesting s/he adopt a new name, and you have done so before, as well. Assuming s/he has seen at least one of our posts (and assuming it is the same person), it suggests s/he is willfully using a name that has prior ownership on this list.
Note to LEFTY MARK: Stop it! The REAL Mark sometimes has reasonable things to say, but it just creeps me out when I see a post signed “Mark” that I completely agree with (I mean, other than 42 point 1).
windie @ 45
Since I have an established history of posting here, his posting does have the effect of appearing to be me. And considering the idiotic garbage he spews…
MTR@47
I wouldn’t believe you if you said you were a human being.
How many jobs do ya have, Redneck? You seem to be an expert on something new every time we turn around…
I’m still betting tho’, its more the ‘Young Republican troll in his second year of College’. From the way you post, that’d be just about right.
Mark, just for argument, since I”m right here still, I’m sure nobody thinks its you (I sure don’t). Don’t worry ’bout it so much, its not that big a deal…
And next time you choose a nick for a blog or forum or something, choose a more obscure name :D
dj @ 49
Uhh… just got the same creepy agreement feeling from your post — kinda like a “man hug” that gets held a bit too long. Ahem, ahem… now, how about them Bears??!! :)
ergh I’m apparently in the massive minority in thinking its silly to care about this.
Therefore, I’ll shut the hell up on the name subject.
SORRY TO ALL MARKS!
windie @ 51
How’s this?
@54
hehe that works too ;)
I’m sorry tho, I can get carried away about stupid crap sometimes ;P
Mark the Redneck @ 47
Are you a licensed engineer? I am.
As a matter of fact, I did teach civil engineering at the University of Wisconsin–Madison in the 1980s, and was a member of an engineering department. I’ve changed fields since then.
If you’re not, you are unqualified to speak on this subject. Just like the discussion on left and right joins…
Don’t be a moron. The issue has nothing to do with engineering. It is about politics, stoopid!
Professor BongHit –
So in other words, “No”, you are not a PE, and therefore, your engineering qualifications are lukewarm at best.
Goldy said he read ENGINEERING reports and concluded two public structures are unsafe. He’s so concerned about safety, that he wants them shut down so that innocent people don’t die. He’d also like to make a name for himself.
I offered a method that lets him do both of those things at zero cost. It’s been said that a good engineer can do for 50 cents what the average guy can do for a dollar. I’m suggesting a method that’s free. Now there’s some good engineering…
Mark the Redneck @ 57
“Goldy said he read ENGINEERING reports and concluded two public structures are unsafe. He’s so concerned about safety, that he wants them shut down so that innocent people don’t die. He’d also like to make a name for himself.”
Is this willful stupidity again? Or, are you really that simple? You mean to tell me that you really don’t understand what Goldy is trying to do?
“I offered a method that lets him do both of those things at zero cost. It’s been said that a good engineer can do for 50 cents what the average guy can do for a dollar. I’m suggesting a method that’s free. Now there’s some good engineering…”
And, following your advice (which is perfectly sound for some things) would accomplish nothing whatsoever for Goldy. It ain’t about engineering malpractice, you dolt!
As someone with an incredibily unimaginative nom de plume, I sympathize with those who just want to use their name, even though it’s already taken. However, if your desired name is taken, THINK OF SOMETHING ELSE, fer cryin’ out loud. This ain’t rocket science, folks.
Redneck, I will admit, your post is a bit confusing. You seem to not trust WSDOT to perform audits of its own finances, but you would trust WSDOT engineers reports?
None the less, I have been scouring the internet for some reference to that requirement, and I have as yet failed to find anything other than those inspections that were performed by UW engineers that did recommend closing the Viaduct.
I find it amazing that someone as cynical as you seem to be will blindly accept that if the bridge has not been closed it must have been certified as safe. My experience with government agencies pretty well makes me assume that if its still in use, noone has complained about its unsafeness yet, which is another thing entirely.
BTW, Janet S is the first person who suggested this. Are yall so blind with hatred for anyone you see as a Democrat that you’re willing to risk the safety of hundreds of people just because closure was suggested by someone of the opposite party? I am glad I am not a party member even if y’all did rob me day before yesterday to hold your little club elections.
Great idea. I’ll be happy to contribute.
Let’s skip the BS and go back to the question — suing the state to stop it from operating an arguably unsafe highway. I highly doubt there is any statute allowing such a lawsuit and, as a matter of common law, this sort of thing is handled by damage cases AFTER the injury occurs. You normally can’t sue for possible injury when you haven’t been injured yet and the courts won’t grant an injunction against possible future harm from arguable negligence. Keeping a road open that is unsafe is therefore a matter of discretion and the only lawsuit is one for damages when they occur. That won’t do much good.
I wonder if the people who determined 520/viaduct were unsafe had anything to gain financially if new ones were built?
Another thing…
In the Seattle Times article Who’ll be to blame if viaduct, 520 bridge collapse?, Ralph Thomas writes:
So I suggest that we get a group of people to march on city hall demanding to be protected from an earthquake, and to shut down the Viaduct until it can be replaced with a safe alternative.
I think I’ll demand that Puget Power turn off it’s great big power station running all those nasty overhead power lines that you can hear snap crackle and pop as you drive under them… I think they are giving me a headache and I WANT THEM OFF until they can be replaced with a safe alternative.
It would be great to see some REAL political leadership in the form of a joint Gregoire – Rossi press conference with Rossi coming out against I-912 and Gregoire closing the Viaduct for safety reasons.
HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS – No need. That’s not what is making your head hurt. Thinking is. Makes your brain hurt.
Thinking is. Makes your brain hurt. -Comment by Daniel K— 9/22/05 @ 4:42 pm
I see… and YOU would know this, how exactly???
Mark @ 55,
Yeah…
Bears are good.
:-)
Bill @ 63 – The reason I’m willing to trust licensed PEs is that their license is their livelihood, and they put it on the line everytime they use their stamp. They are legally liable for what they do. That can’t be said for WSDOT auditers. They have met no certifiable professional standard and work to no established standards. You see, engineers work to the laws of physics, not the laws of man. And the laws of physics trump the law of man every time. We therefore, work to a higher standard.
Any structure that is used by the public must be certified safe by a licensed engineer. I alluded to the elevator certificate in buildings in my original. The building itself must be issued an occupancy permit, and in order to get the permit, a PE has to certify that the building was designed in accordance with applicable standards, and that the construction of the building is per the design. Airplanes are the same way. And so is the 520 bridge and the AWV.
I just find it the height of arrogance that someone like Goldy with zero knowledge of the field, and not even a fleeting understanding of how the system works would deem these structures unsafe based on his cursory review of a few documents which he is incapable of understanding in their entirety.
Were those UW engineers the same guys that let the stadium collapse, or I-90 sink?
Here’s what I shouldn’t be surprised about. Goldy goes on about the unsafe AWV, 520, etc., etc., but he doesn’t name names. Is that because those with any impact on the situation are all Democrats? He just wants to sue “the government,” as represented by WSDOT, etc.
Goldy, you should be intellectually honest here. If the PTB (powers that be) were GOP, you’d be naming names, lashing out and generally cursing a blue streak. WA State agencies are subject to the direction of the Governor and the Legislature. Why aren’t you titling this “Gregoire Inaction Risks Lives of Millions” or “Dem Legislature Looks Other Way on Grave Threat?”
Treating this as a political problem is stupid. It’s a technical engineering issue.
If it was just a political problem, the girlz in the Legislature could just pass a law making it a crime for either structure to fail. I suppose you moonbats would support that wouldn’t you?
PissAss@68
You REALLY need to move out of that trailer park in Renton!
Goldy, you already told us where he stands (as in the headline): http://www.horsesass.org/index.php?p=795
Mark @ 75
What a minute. I though the legislature and the Governor DID do something. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the process underway now to raise the funding needed to make transportation improvements in WA? And aren’t AWV and SR520FB part of that?
The problem here is that I-912 will defund AWV and SR520FB. I mean the freaking legislature has been trying to fix the revenue loss since I695 passed in 1999. People voted down Ref 51, they passed the nickel package for some of the high priority projects, but that simply wasn’t enough to do everything.
I don’t think we can blame the Governor(s) nor the legislators (either Democrats or Republicans, since there has been bipartisan support for many transportation measures). Right now, we can blame the people. So, give ’em what they want. Start shutting down infrastructure…now, before anyone gets hurt.
I mean, why do they even have the ferry system in place at all when those funds can be used to address some serious safety issues that must be addressed but will apparently have their funding yanked by I-912?
There’s a run-on sentence for ya.
Another TJ @ 62;
I lost my name for you and some other guy name TJ, but Goldy was right, you all where here first, so those are the breaks. You are right on this one.
Goldy;
So riddle me this (or anyone else for that matter)
You are the King of Olympia for a day. What you say goes.
You have $4 billion (the estimated amount of revenue left in SB 6103 funding package if I-912 passes) to spend on transit, what do you do with it?
So, redneck, are you saying it was certified when it was made however long ago it was made and so it must be still safe or has there been a recert. If so, where is that recert registered. If not, are you nuts?!?! Even a non engineer knows that nothing lasts forever and pointing at a 30+ year old cert and saying it must be safe is less than relevant.
Are you certain it HAS been recertified on a regular basis? Is there a requirement for such that you know of or is this an assumption. Or as they so frequently tend to do with something unsafe, has the government just excluded bridges from that type of requirement.
Also note, WSDOT is currently trying to hire, oddly enough, a PE to certify bridges. So, yes, the cert you are demanding is being performed by someone paid by WSDOT and who would, given the suspiciouns about government malfeasence you’ve voiced repeatedly would presumably be covered and hidden if they made a report say whatever they wanted their supervisors wanted it to say.
A doctor can loose his liscense for faking up a report given to medicare, but they do it all the time anyway, or at least thats what the papers tell me. Do you seriously believe that no PE could be paid by their employer to fake up a cert? I won’t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you actually believe what you said.
I repeat, is this something you object to because of engineering or because a democrat said it. As an engineer, have you analyzed the relevent documents or did you just give it a pass because another engineer passed on it. If you did how are you any different from the union people who do the same thing that you complain about all the time.
Bill – All public structures are certified and recertified on a regularly scheduled basis. Again, using the elevator certification example…. take a look at it… it has a From: To: set of dates on it. The same thing applies to all public structures. All of them. Every one.
Any PE who lets his boss override what he says risks losing his license and his livelihood. We don’t do that. Part of being a “Professional” means to not let those who are unqualified meddle in affairs that they don’t understand. This includes “blue collar engineers” trying to tell us PEs what to do. We ignore them, as we should.
As I’ve said about 16 fucking times, I’m making a technical argument not a political one, because Goldy said he made an engineering judgement.
righton@39–
I understand Goldy is also proposing a vigil against vaginal dryness. Seems like it impacts every woman Goldy touches!
ASSUME I-912 PASSES:
Here is what the legislature should do come January: (in my humble opinion)
Take the $250-$275 billion the House GOP suggested for the 90 day gas tax rollback from unexpected increased revenue and deposit it into the states emergency fund(I know we all think this already happened but it did not, and technically speaking, it would have to be for this). This has to be done by the legislature, Gov. Gregoire can not do it by executive order.
Take the report you are taking about and declare AVW a state emergency. This can be done legally with the Governor’s signature (House and Senate need not apply). This should open the state up to recieving some FEMA and Homeland Security (IT is near the port) grant money. If so, bonus, if not we move on.
Now you have 1/2 the money back for AVW. Take the $4 billion still in the package and reduce from a $500 million allocation to a $400 up to $425 million allocation.
The King County Council and Executive need to sign a regional transit plan which allocates the remaining $1.7 billion dollars. This agreement need to put toll’s on the bridge for part of the payment and future maintainance.
Have all $2 billion financed through the state at a lower bond rate than King County can get. This requires law changes at both the state and county level. (this is the trickiest part).
Now that we are looked into a specific plan, a bonded and underwritten source of funding, it is time for Dave Reichert to earn a career in D.C. In the wake of Katrina, someone needs to be able to work the White House to get every federal dollar we can on this.
Both our senators are out because they have a accused the President of war crimes and planning 9-11 (Whether you agree with them or not, you see the ass pounding it got us on federal transit funding). This may also work as a McGavick Campaign issue. Someone needs to get to D.C. and work the other side of the aisle for us.
Windie@46–
You, a devout LEFTIST PINHEAD who is oh so serious and oh so self-righteous are saying those of us who are always RIGHT have no sense of humor??????? YUK YUK YUK!!!!!!!
Windie, you are so uptight, I doubt an International Harvester Tractor could pull a pin outta yer ass!!!!
Lighten up dude….go with the flow more.
Breathe windie breathe!!!!
There now, don’t we feel better??
Obviously you haven’t done your yoga, meditated or sucked on your crystals today. Shame on you! You know what your psycho-analyst told you when you fail to do these things and forget your megadose of Prozac!!!
Daniel K-@64–
Contribute what….part of your welfare check???
When do you get that welfare check and those foods stamps anyhow?
I have an idea what you all might say;
“the legislature already put it’s neck out polically and won’t do it again”
I think you are probably right. But here is the deal, (Again, assume I-912 passes and assume Goldy’s analysis is correct – I think he is more right that wrong on this) with the situation we have laid out on this blog, lives are at stake. The leadership must step up to the plate regardless of what the political consequences may be.
Here is where I totally disagree with Goldy on this and why I don’t get how he is blaming the republicans. (especially Dino, an unelected non-official)
For better or worse we have a Democrat Governor, Democrat House (with a 12 vote majority), Democrat Senate (with a 2 vote majority), 2 Democrat U.S. Senators, 6 out of 9 Democrat U.S. House members. A liberal to moderate state supreme court.
How can really blame anything on republican’s in this state. You have the entire team on the field. I can’t read your mind but here is what I think is going on:
You want to have you cake and eat it too. (I know that is the dumbest expression ever, I hate it, but I still use it!!! What the hell is the point of having cake if your not going to eat it, right!!!)
You want all Democrat leaders in power (which you have), but you don’t want them to have to make any tough political decisions that might threaten that. Your side has all the leadership, but you still want to blame the other side for a lack of leadership. (Assuming I-912 passes) if you really want to make a difference on this, hold your own team accountable for doing what is right in January, not what is right in November.
Bob Ferguson is now leading by 134 votes over Edmonds.
Goldy–you said she would be ahead by now??? What gives?
Could it be that Ferguson worked overtime down the stretch???
I’ll bet BUTTBOY Logan is cranking up the GREAT EQUALIZER ballotbox stuffer!!!
@88 correction: politically
It started out innocently enough.
I began to think at parties now and then — to loosen up.
Inevitably, though, one thought led to another, and soon I was more than just a social thinker.
I began to think alone — “to relax,” I told myself — but I knew it wasn’t true.
Thinking became more and more important to me, and finally I was thinking all the time.
That was when things began to sour at home. One evening I had turned the TV off and asked my wife about the meaning of life.
She spent that night at her mother’s.
I began to think on the job.
I knew that thinking and employment don’t mix, but I couldn’t stop myself.
I began to avoid friends at lunchtime so I could read Thoreau and Kafka.
I would return to the office dizzied and confused, asking, “What is it exactly we are doing here?”
One day the boss called me in. He said, “Listen, I like you, and it hurts me to say this, but your thinking has become a real problem. If you don’t stop thinking on the job, you’ll have to find another job.
This gave me a lot to think about. I came home early after my conversation with the boss.
“Honey,” I confessed, “I’ve been thinking…” “I know you’ve been thinking,” she said, “and I want a divorce!”
“But Honey, surely it’s not that serious.”
“It is serious,” she said, lower lip aquiver. “You think as much as college professors, and college professors don’t make any money, so if you keep on thinking, we won’t have any money!”
“That’s a faulty syllogism,” I said impatiently.
She exploded in tears of rage and frustration, but I was in no mood to deal with the emotional drama.
“I’m going to the library,” I snarled as I stomped out the door. I headed for the library, in the mood for some Nietzsche. I roared into the parking lot with NPR on the radio and ran up to the big glass doors.
They didn’t open. The library was closed. To this day, I believe that a Higher Power was looking out for me that night.
Leaning on the unfeeling glass, whimpering for Zarathustra, a poster caught my eye.
Friend, is heavy thinking ruining your life?” it asked. You probably recognize that line. It comes from the standard Thinker’s Anonymous poster.
Which is why I am what I am today, a recovering thinker.
I never miss a TA meeting. At each meeting we watch a non-educational video; last week it was “Porky’s.”
Then we share experiences about how we avoided thinking since the last meeting.
I still have my job, and things are a lot better at home.
Life just seemed…easier, somehow, as soon as I stopped thinking. I FEEL the road to recovery is nearly complete for me.
Today, I registered to vote as a Democrat.
Spam Filtered Again!
And it was such a good joke!
Goldy says “no amount of reinforcement can keep it from falling over”. Proving his ignorance.
Good luck finding an engineer to testify to that as an expert in your “trial of the century” Goldy Mason! Maybe you should stick to subjects you know something about.
obsolete mark@4,5
just because you guys live in a culture of unmitigated selfishness and greed doesn’t mean that we do.
Comment by windie— 9/22/05 @ 11:44 am
Picking your neigbbors pockets for taxes and then wasting it isn’t selfish?
The The Notorius P.I.E. says, You have $4 billion (the estimated amount of revenue left in SB 6103 funding package if I-912 passes) to spend on transit, what do you do with it?
That’s a very inaccurate estimate. It would be closer to $3 billion.
Oh… I see you are moving beyond “spitting” on Vietnam vets these days (“You mean like all those women and little kids you killed back in ‘Nam tough guy?”).
Asshole!
Comment by dj— 9/22/05 @ 2:33 pm
Killing kids is sport to democrats… come on. Remeber the dems are the part of NAMBLA and abortion doctors.
PLEASE move to Scoop.
If I want a right wing comment thread…I go to minnow’s site. Or barfballs. Or wingnut daily.
These clowns vomit up the SAME tired rightwing BULLSHIT that DOESN’T WORK!
Comment by rujax206— 9/22/05 @ 3:01 pm
Hey you can scoop us if you want but you will never shut us up. We will never go back to the old days where we were bombarded with lefty drivel all day with no response. Those days are over!!!!!
63
Redneck, I will admit, your post is a bit confusing. You seem to not trust WSDOT to perform audits of its own finances
Comment by bill— 9/22/05 @ 4:03 pm
Anybody who states “to perform audits of its own finances” does not know the first thing about auditing.
RUFUS – Doesn’t DOT do internal audits separate from Sonntagg’s office? Kinda off point, but since you raised it….
So RoofAss-
How ’bout the right-wing drivel I’ve been gagging on for the last THIRTY YEARS.
By the time captain codpiece and his Mayberry Machiavellis get done you’ll be lucky to elect a DOG CATCHER.
Daniel K;
You are right it is in accurate, but it is as accurate as you $3 billion guess would be.
Infact the $8.5 billion original package made quite a few assumptions that we all would most likely not agree with. If if I-912 fails, we still maybe looking at as little as $7 billion. Those same circumstances would lead to your $3 billion vs. my $4 billion. For the sake of argument I am taking the numbers that generate the $8.5 billion that the funding package says.
But I do agree with you and what you are saying should be noted by all.
dj @ 79
Au contraire, mon frere! [to switch from Yiddish to French]
Funding, repairs and I-912 are actually IRRELEVANT to Goldy’s post. Read his specific point:
“…join me in suing WSDOT and other responsible public agencies to immediately shut down the Viaduct, the 520 bridge and other structures that present an imminent danger to public safety. Really.”
Goldy is saying they are death traps RIGHT NOW, which means that both the Governor and the Legislature are ignoring a grave danger that could cost lives. Unless he is being facetious with the entire post, he must name names and publish scathing headlines (as I mention in 75) or acknowledge that he is a total hypocrite when it comes to political commentary.
Mark @ 101
“Funding, repairs and I-912 are actually IRRELEVANT to Goldy’s post. Read his specific point:
…
Goldy is saying they are death traps RIGHT NOW, which means that both the Governor and the Legislature are ignoring a grave danger that could cost lives. Unless he is being facetious with the entire post, he must name names and publish scathing headlines (as I mention in 75) or acknowledge that he is a total hypocrite when it comes to political commentary. “
Indeed, but Goldy’s goal is not to shut down the AWV and SR520FB. Rather his goal is to knock some sense into voters before they “pull the lever” in November. If people realize that these two bits of infrastructure are REALLY going to go away, they might actually sober up from this “gimme stuff but don’t tax me for it” party.
I think Goldy’s lawsuit will fail (and I sure hope it fails–I use SR520FB to get to work every day). But, I sure want the lawsuit to go forward—the sooner the better.
One of the worst assumptions the transit budget makes is a 4% (around that, it might be more of less, I don’t have it on me) annual increase in fuel consumption. While this is traditionally true. If our goal over the next decade is to reduce fuel consumption, then by succeeding in that, we hurt our selves on the transit budget. Same deal with reducing the amount of smokers now hurts school funding.
Another enlightening discussion about whether the Earth is flat. (re: Yet another thread that reads like the Mad Hatter’s tea party.)
The problem with all of the surreal flaming by the right-wing extremists is that they are driving away the more thoughtful conservatives and moderates whom the lefties really need to be talking to. Held rightly, a rating system doesn’t reduce diversity — it merely holds in check the sociopaths and operatives.
98
MTR
Just to set the record straight when I talk about audits I am refering to performance audits. These audits are the only ones that you will be able to get any kind of relevent information from when it comes to government. The State of Washington has not performed an independent performance audit in accordance to the “yellow book” standards for over 30 years. In fact the Washington state auditor is restricted by law from performing INDEPENENT state audits. Here is a link that you might find interesting. It is a little old but summarizes what the State auditor is up against right at this very moment http://www.effwa.org/main/arti.....cle_id=961. Vote yes on 900.
dj @ 44
‘…suggestions seem to be lame attempts at satire. Exceptionally lame. ‘
Are you suggesting that the “please, please tell us what you think Mr. Rossi” vigil is less lame? If you and other HAers thought there was tainted water in some school’s drinking supply would you have a vigil to see what some retired politician thought about it? I would hope you would instead do something effective and productive. If the AWV and 520 bridge are dangerous enough to be a high risk they should be closed. Instead, we have great pontification on the part of the No On I-912 crowd about the danger, with no real action.
It sounds like the sky is falling and all HA can think of to do is ask Rossi if he too endorses the falling-sky theory. So, I think the lawsuit idea actually does show a more serious stance and salute Goldy for the idea. I also do think that there are many other ideas that would be more effective such as the boycott, hunger strike, etc.
What I said is not sarcastic, unless you and every I-912 opponent do not believe what is being said about the dangers. If you really do think the danger is there you should be as outraged at DOT for not closing them as you are at Bush for Iraq.
Notorious PIE-man@88
Absolutely fabulous assessment.
Here we live in a State TOTALLY controlled by Dems.
It’s totally screwed up and all they can think to do is blame the Republicans!!! LEFTIST PINHEADS sadly have that illness where they struggle remembering shit…even if it happened 5 minutes ago. What in the hell is that illness called????
Dang, what is it called?
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Oh yeah, it’s called CRAFT disease…..that’s it CRAFT disease.
C–an’t
R–emember
A
F–ucking
T–hing
dj @ 102
But this could be a “be careful what you ask for” situation. What if he DOES sue and they DO close the roads down? Any repairs will take MANY YEARS and cost BILLIONS of dollars. My objection to the gas tax (and many other road funding projects) is that they never put in the total amount. They always fund projects just far enough to make it stupid not to fund the balance. And then you have all of the change orders and overruns.
The AWV tunnel project sure smells a lot like the Big Dig in Boston — and we all know how that ended up.
jerry springer; you have it backwards; every time i veer moderate i read this blog and might a sharp right turn. You can’t even get me to oppose Bush, though i don’t care for him. 5 min of roger and dj and i’m ready to canonize the guy.
dj @ 79: “…why do they even have the ferry system… when those funds can be used to address some serious safety issues…”
You are joking, right? The ferry system is a “water highway” and carries 25 million passengers (more than Amtrak) and 11 million cars each year. It is the biggest ferry system in the country. Besides, they’ll never dump the ferries. Too many powerful lawyers and politicians live in Kitsap County (and commute to Seattle, Bellevue and Olympia).
RIGHT Mark–@108–
Precisely!!
Typical out-of-reality bureaucrats will do whatever it takes to con the public into funding a project to the point of no return….then jam the final bill right up our A**!
Too many examples of massive change orders, re-designs etc. where these LEFTIST PINHEADED Bureaucrats hide the real cost of the project from the public….cuz THEY know what is best for us.
PUBLIC SERVANTS my A**!! PUBLIC Manipulators is more like it.
Goldy: These idiot righty bloggers ( the ones who panic when banning them is considered) need to go. They’re ruining this informative blog with their relentless and singleminded evil simpletoneity.
Let them gather signatures for Tim Eyman so he can buy himself more X-pensive consumer items with simpletonian money.
These simpletonians need a seedy bar to go to where they can drink massive quantities and smoke and snicker out of the sides of their mouths while hurling idiotic labels at people ten times their worth in soul , grit and determination.
113
Hear hear… said like a true complextonian.
Hey Goldy, I’ll come to Drinking Liberally when your beer, er, legal fund reaches $2.75!
112
I suspect Mr. Cynical was designed by a committee of WSDOT bureaucrats.
NoWonder @ 106
“I would hope you would instead do something effective and productive. If the AWV and 520 bridge are dangerous enough to be a high risk they should be closed. Instead, we have great pontification on the part of the No On I-912 crowd about the danger, with no real action.”
First, I take it that you disagree with the push poll that Goldy mentioned that suggests that Rossi opinion on I-912 will change the outcome. Oh well, that is your right. I’ll take the poll over your opinion. Goldy’s posts are followed by the press (but I sure hope to hell they ignore the comment threads), so this vigil will have an effect. Even if it doesn’t force Rossi to say what he thinks, there will be some MSM articles asking the same question of Rossi, and that will make a difference.
And, Second. No real action??? WTF? Read the post that this comment thread is attached to. If Goldy succeeds in quickly launching a high-profile lawsuit, the PR about it alone may change the I-912 outcome. That sure seems like “doing something” to me!
Riddle: What do Mr. Cynical and the Alaska Way Viaduct have in common?
Answer: They’re both unreconstructed troglodytes.
Mark @6,
It hadn’t even occurred to me that one could make money off of a lawsuit like this. You know, there are a lot of valid criticisms one could throw at me, but it is kind of silly to accuse me of being in this for the money. I have irresponsibly sacrificed so much income to my blogging and political activism, I couldn’t begin to make it back.
Mark1 @10,
Oh… sorry to bother you.
Mark @14,
Well… I’m confused here. I didn’t see another “Mark” posting in this thread. Since none of you guys give me real email addresses, it’s impossible to send a private notice, but yes… for the sake of what little order we have here, could the new “Mark” please adopt a different screen name… the original Mark was here first.
Cynical @91,
Yeah, and I also said such projections had proven to be a load of crap in the past.
Mark @111
Whatever my intent, if I sue, and manage to get the roads shut down, then clearly, they are such a danger that they should be shut down. So what’s the problem?
Putty fer Brains @ 3
“In other words. Goldy is looking for a lawyer to repsent this case and a financial Angel to completely pay for it, so Goldy can propel his own political agenda and use this as a springboard to get his name in the papers.”
So? If Tim can do it, why can’t Goldy?
Reply to 4
We don’t need all these fancy engineers or reports! All we need is for you to drive onto the viaduct, get out of your car, and jump up and down on it a few times.
Reply to 5
Sam Reed pocketed the interest on $750,000 by sitting on the Democrats’ recount deposit for six months after the recount (in violation of state law).
If Reed, a Republican, can milk the cow, then why can’t Democratic lawyers milk the cow too?
Reply to 10
Since he’s never going to be governor, that seems to be perfectly reasonable.
Reply to 12
“Corporate America … is both Left and Right”
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Comment on 30
prr not only spits on Vietnam Veterans, he also advocates Goldy’s assassination.
Mark @ 109,
“But this could be a “be careful what you ask for” situation. What if he DOES sue and they DO close the roads down?”
You are absolutely right—it is a calculated risk! And it will particularly suck for me if Goldy succeeds. My guess is that shutting down these two highways will shake up a lot of people, and that seems to be what is necessary here. (It beats shaking up people by having a highway collapse on them).
“Any repairs will take MANY YEARS and cost BILLIONS of dollars. My objection to the gas tax (and many other road funding projects) is that they never put in the total amount.”
Well, you know, I started saving up money years before purchasing my first house. I had no idea how much it would cost or where it would be, but I knew I need a big chunk of change to get started. (The State is much further ahead of this though in vetting possible designs and estimating each option’s costs). Unless you are arguing we should let SR520FB sink and not replace it, shouldn’t we get started with the funding now?
“They always fund projects just far enough to make it stupid not to fund the balance. And then you have all of the change orders and overruns.”
My impression is that the DOT is doing quite well, on average, in meeting deadlines and costs. I hear that they used to suck (before I lived here). But, again, are you arguing that because DOT used to suck, our best solution is to let AWV fall over and then solve the problem by investing in some long-lasting Detour signs?
“The AWV tunnel project sure smells a lot like the Big Dig in Boston – and we all know how that ended up. “
I don’t know the scope of the real Big Dig, but I was under the impression that that project was much more ambitious than digging under the existing AWV right-of-way. Of course, the AWV tunnel is only one of several options being discussed. Do you have a better solution that will be widely acceptable?
Someone had to do it!
Mark @ 111
“You are joking, right?”
Ummm…I was being facetious. I love the ferry system.
“The ferry system is a “water highway” and carries 25 million passengers (more than Amtrak) and 11 million cars each year. It is the biggest ferry system in the country. Besides, they’ll never dump the ferries. Too many powerful lawyers and politicians live in Kitsap County (and commute to Seattle, Bellevue and Olympia).”
The AWV and SR520FB carry 30 million cars each year. The point is, the AWV falling and SR520FB sinking are serious problems that will have large economic consequences for Washingtonians. If it came down to choosing between rebuilding roads and doing safety improvements in high-accident rate stretches of highways (and I mean all over the state, not just in KC) or keeping the Ferry system going, objectively the roads should win (more cars, more state residents using them).
I hope we can do both. But, if push comes to shove, I choose the roads I use every day over the ferry I use every couple of months.
Goldy;
Don’t ever let it be said that you are bark and no bite.
I have been challenging you for weeks to step up to the plate, and if AVW is so dangerous and you can prove it, then demand it be shutdown.
You are now stepping up to the challenge. I don’t care what your motive is. If in fact it is that dangerous, then you are doing the right thing, I don’t care why.
I commend you for what you are doing and if you feel strongly about it, don’t let the bureaucrats stop you. Good luck, no I am not sending you money.
Another lawyer? From a skinny little Democrat terp named Goldensteinburg? Gee……What a surprise!
You righties better watch the name calling. I got your number on that one. We can simplify life by referring to : Mark the HN, Mr. Cynical HN, The Notorius HN, etc…..
The Notorius P.I.E. @ 131,
“Good luck, no I am not sending you money.”
Well, then, at least contribute a little something to his beer fund!
Only if it can be guarenteed to go to local brew only!!!
On second thought, a drunk Goldy scares me.
What kind of drunk do you think Goldy is???
I have no room to make fun of him, I meet no definition of a “Good Drunk” myself, but I bet Goldy is the guy you see in the john for 3 hours straight talking politics with some total stranger (I have been that guy once or twice myself).
dj @ 119
‘I’ll take the poll over your opinion.’
I do not care what this kind of poll says. I am sure there are plenty of dems who, if they said they supported I-912, could sway some votes. It is ridiculous to rant about what Rossi may or may not say about I-912. It’s not like he is Governor, or even an elected official of any type. He has not announed a run for anything at this point.
‘…so this vigil will have an effect.’
If you are referring to a few blogs who are demanding Rossi support I-912, and Goldy’s “vigil” in particular, you are dreaming.
‘If Goldy succeeds in quickly launching a high-profile lawsuit…’
That is a big “if”. If he does do it then I would say the No-I-912 is doing something consistent with the falling-sky claims. That was my original point. Where is all the outrage about the AWV and 520 bridge remaining open? Why not protest at the locations and legislature. Not just for I-912, but to close these hazards down. How about a blog-organized drive to boycott driving on the dangerous roads? All I am saying is, if the claims about how dangerous the AWV and 520 bridge are true then act like they are true.
@127
“prr not only spits on Vietnam Veterans, he also advocates Goldy’s assassination”
Clarification.
Rabbit, I spit on you and advocate his wortless ass walking on the 520 bridge on a rainy night.
A dumbass walking on a rainy bridge, at night, is not assisanted, they are proving Darwin correct.
NoWonder @ 137
“It is ridiculous to rant about what Rossi may or may not say about I-912. It’s not like he is Governor, or even an elected official of any type.”
So? What difference does that make? Goldy can ask anybody he want to about their opinion on I-912. What world do you come from where only politicians can be asked their opinion?
“If you are referring to a few blogs who are demanding Rossi support I-912, and Goldy’s “vigil” in particular, you are dreaming.”
Nope I was refering to the MSM (=Main Stream Media).
“That is a big “if”. If he does do it then I would say the No-I-912 is doing something consistent with the falling-sky claims. That was my original point. Where is all the outrage about the AWV and 520 bridge remaining open?”
Read the fucking post, dolt!
“Why not protest at the locations and legislature. Not just for I-912, but to close these hazards down. How about a blog-organized drive to boycott driving on the dangerous roads? All I am saying is, if the claims about how dangerous the AWV and 520 bridge are true then act like they are true. “
If you care to persue these things, go for it. Goldy has his way. But, if you ask me, the ideas you propose are pretty silly. Boycotting roads? (*snicker*)
Hey, you forgot to suggest people dump a can of gasoline on themselves and light it in protest of SR512FB remaining open.
dj @ 139
‘What difference does that make?’
It is the difference between showing this is a mere campaign stunt or actually believing the danger is really there.
If you care to persue these things, go for it. Goldy has his way. But, if you ask me, the ideas you propose are pretty silly. Boycotting roads? (*snicker*)
I support I-912 and am confident it will pass. My goal here was to point out how ridiculous Goldy’s “way” has been. I say again that if he actually gets litigation moving he is acting rather than merely spewing blather. Silly? If the AWV and 520 bridge are so crucial in terms of preventing absolute gridlock a boycott would be extremely effective. It would, however, take a bit more sacrafice from I-912 opponents than pontificating on some blog.
Goldy; are you in favor of 520 with its 14 foot wide bike lane, scenic viewpoint, and then of course the “sort of big dig” with its Salmon Beach?
dj @ 130: “If it came down to choosing between rebuilding roads and doing safety improvements in high-accident rate stretches of highways (and I mean all over the state, not just in KC) or keeping the Ferry system going, objectively the roads should win (more cars, more state residents using them).
I hope we can do both. But, if push comes to shove, I choose the roads I use every day over the ferry I use every couple of months.”
In WA, each ferry run carries the same “weight” as any other given stretch of highway and in most cases, they should carry more weight because they’re the only way to get somewhere. In the case of 520, you have a relatively reasonable alternative in I-90 or 405-N/S to I-5. Don’t like AWV? Take I-5, surface streets, etc. By eliminating ferries, do you propose that folks (or commercial goods) going to Whidbey from Seattle drive through Ana-freakin’-cortes every time? What about Vashon? The San Juans? Bainbridge? Access to Whidbey NAS? No more K2 skis & bikes (Vashon)?
usually right Mark @ 142
How rational. We don’t get to choose legilative priorities based only on our micro focused self interest. We elect people to make these tough decisions (I hope with the long view in mind rather than short-sightedness) on our behalf. If we have to have a referendum or initiative on every niggling issue that comes up, what do we even have a government for? I concede I’m paraphrasing something I heard on Howard Stern yesterday morning, but clear thinking is so rare these days.
I do love the idea of boycotting roads, but of course it would have exactly the opposite effect of freeing up the lanes for the non-boycotters.
One last thing, Usually Right: K2 skis are now made in China.
NoWonder @ 140
‘What difference does that make?’
It is the difference between showing this is a mere campaign stunt or actually believing the danger is really there.
My question was, what difference does it make that Rossi is a private citizen. (Answer in 139)
“Silly? If the AWV and 520 bridge are so crucial in terms of preventing absolute gridlock a boycott would be extremely effective.”
Yes…that is, indeed, a silly idea. NoWonder, don’t quit your day job … and, leave the attention-getting ideas to Goldy :-)
No flames on this one. GO, Goldy! You get this started and I’ll contribute what I can.
Shut ’em down. The only things any politicos understand are money & crisis. GIVE THEM A CRISIS.
Bottom line: We don’t pay enough taxes, especially businesses. Time to grow up.
144……Dan B……..”Bottom line: We don’t pay enough taxes, especially businesses. “. Right on!! Tax those private sector businesses until…….well, until they just pack up and leave the state! Then, we’ll tax………hmmmm, each other? Yeah, the union hacks will tax the “guvment” Democrats who will tax the welfare blacks. [hehe….Atlas has Shrugged]
Mark @ 142
In WA, each ferry run carries the same “weight” as any other given stretch of highway and in most cases, they should carry more weight because they’re the only way to get somewhere.
Yep…so funding decisions should come down to traffic volume.
“In the case of 520, you have a relatively reasonable alternative in I-90 or 405-N/S to I-5. Don’t like AWV? Take I-5, surface streets, etc. By eliminating ferries, do you propose that folks (or commercial goods) going to Whidbey from Seattle drive through Ana-freakin’-cortes every time? What about Vashon? The San Juans? Bainbridge? Access to Whidbey NAS? No more K2 skis & bikes (Vashon)?”
Alternatives? How about a good ol’ Republican solution: private business. More Kenmore Air runs and private ferry companies?
As I suggested before, I don’t want the ferry system to go away. It is just that in this crazy “don’t tax me, but gimmme stuff” environment, politicians have to get realistic and begin prioritizing and shutting down some underfunded “stuff.” I mean, we can underfund everything and have a shitty everything, or we can prioritize what we can do well and what we must eliminate.
The ferry system seems like a fair target for elimination, given the low utilization per route relative to many other parts of the highway system.
BTW: I-912 hits the Ferry system pretty hard, too—some of the gas tax increase is earmarked for Puget Sound ferry operations.
Dan B @ 144: “We don’t pay enough taxes, especially businesses. Time to grow up.”
Clearly Danny Boy hasn’t ever run a business. WA businesses are among the most-taxed in the country! We may not have a corporate income tax, but we have a seriously oppressive B&O tax on gross receipts that dooms many young companies.
What we SHOULD tax are union dues. Unions have become big business and have long ago stopped being benevolent craftsmen’s guilds. Just look at the salaries the bosses are paid while they encourage workers to strike and take home strike “pay.”
Mark @ 146
B&O taxes get passed onto customers.
In the end, Washington State tax burden falls right smack in the middle of the states. Many people on the left and right would agree that a less cobbled-together tax system would be desirable, but it is difficult to argue that we are overtaxed.
dj @ 145
Low utilization per route?? Maybe on the Point Defiance to Tallequah route (if that thing is still around), but Vashon, Whidbey, Bainbridge, Bremerton, Kingston… They carry millions of cars and many millions of passengers.
As I said before, you should shut down the unsafe and redundant routes like 520 and AWV before you shut down ferry routes that are the ONLY reasonable link to a given area of the state.
As for private companies… every time something gets tried, the unions, the Legislature and/or the existing public transit cabal throw up so many roadblocks that the effort is eventually killed off.
The fact remains that there are highways far less traveled than the ferry system — especially in Outer BFE County, WA. By your logic, we should just focus on I-90, I-5 and the ferries (based on volume) and let the rest of the state roads go to hell.
According to the WSF, they are the second largest public transit system after KingCo Metro. So, by your logic, goodbye Sound Transit, Link Light Rail, etc., etc. While everyone on the ferries is “pooling” to save the environment, you’re out there polluting in your car. Shame on you, Mr. Lefty!
And, last but not least, only 30% of the operating costs of WSF are paid by the state and there are moves in place to cut that down to 20%. The rest is paid by fares. How about making 520, AWV and EVERY OTHER highway in WA a toll road?? That’ll cut down on your traffic congestion, pollution and maintenance needs. So, quit freeloading, Mr. 520!
Speaking of “Rugged Individualism” and an SUV in every pot, does anyone think these mass evacutions from the hurricanes would work any better if we had decent mass transportation in this country? You bet your bippy it would!! They have 14 hour trafic jams now. The people trying to escape will be hit by the hurricanes while idling on the freeway— unless they can get to Crawford and hide in GWB’s root cellar. That’s the FEMA plan, I hear.
Only some jamoke Republican conservative trying to sell cars and gasoline would think that good public transportation is a bad investment.
dj @ 147: “B&O taxes get passed onto customers.”
In the sense that they’re a cost of doing business (that businesses in other states don’t have). However, only the cable, phone and wireless companies can/do line-item it as an additional cost. And even if you up the cost of your product or service to compensate, you have to pay B&O on the amount you increased to compensate for B&O!
Combining the sales tax and the B&O tax makes it much more difficult to compete with out-of-state businesses.
DJ: “In the end, Washington State tax burden falls right smack in the middle of the states.”
For individuals, the tax rate is around the national average. However, for BUSINESS climate, WA is the 9th most oppressive state in the union — which, of course, stifles economic growth, etc., etc. WA also has one of the highest average sales tax rates in the country — again, making WA businesses less competitive with out-of-state firms (even though honest taxpayers are supposed to pay Use Tax on OOS purchases, but often don’t). WA residents also pay THE HIGHEST sales and gross receipts taxes per capita (FY2002).
Dr. Quest @ 149
Go back to fondling Hadji.
You think light rail is the way to get folks out of town in a disaster? Damage one piece of track and EVERYONE on the route is lost.
Buses… maybe. As long as they don’t just sit by the hundreds in a flooded-out parking lot.
And how would people carry their survival stuff (sleeping bags, food, medicine, medical needs, etc.), pets, valuables, etc. on public transit?
Speaking of evacuating on a bus… Did you see the AP photo of the evacuee bus that exploded (and killed a couple dozen people) because of the oxygen tanks of the old people went BOOM?
Mark @146: I’ve ran businesses in success & failure. Your insulting attempt at diminuation demonstrates your retrograde personality and minimal intelligence, which is obviously useless in a predictive sense.
Here’s what we need to do, here and throughout the US: Take over a bunch of these pirate bastards who make fortunes based on our infrastructure then desert us for a lower bidder: Bastards like Boeing. Nationalize them. Their profits should go directly back into the infrastructure HERE that made them strong.
“WA businesses are among the most-taxed in the country!” proves the point perfectly. Others have engaged in a race to the bottom, cutting everyone’s throats at once with a jagged blade of wage, safety, environmental, and infrastructure compromises. At the end of that road, we’re all chinese coolies. It is proof that the greatest enemy capitalism faces is capitalists, capitalist PIGS like you. Laissez-Faire capitalism doesn’t work in a world full of pirates that think only to stock their own midden.
Tax ’em white. And eliminate any “corporate personhood.”
Dan @ 152,
Go back to reading TheMiliant.com and leave the adults alone.
Correction to me @ 155: It should be “Dan @ 154”
Sheesh… additional typo @ me @ 155:
Dan B should go back to reading TheMilitant.com.
An example, as if we need another one:
Goodyear to Cut Costs Up to $1B, Close Plants
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170220,00.html
Another American corporation hiding behind the big lie of “I can’t compete” plans it’s sellout of this nation to asia, probably to the chicoms.
This should be called treason, but the capitalist pigs are too greedy to see it. All they want is a fat portfolio and to hell with tomorrow.
Tires and related products are strategic. Nationalize them.
@155: Adult what? I see no evidence you are even human. More likely a cloven-hoofed quadroped escaped from the animal farm.
Nationalize any American corporation over a certain minimum size that goes bankrupt. No more of this protection crap. Just sieze them outright as the penalty for failure.
re 153: Is the result different if there is a traffic accident on the freeway or a bus catches on fire or if your SUV is some GM piece of crap and won’t run? That will jam the freeways just as certainly as faulty track will stop light rail. And, there’s not just ONE rail line leading outward. There are many. . But, if you had good public transportation of many types many more people could escape.
re 155: There you go again All Knowing putz mark(usually) that diminuation BS Dan B was mentioning. Did you know , AK, that Porsche has a rule that you can’t have a larger than 4 in. penis to own a Porsche? How’s that Carrera been handling?
Doc @ 160
Yes, there is a difference because only the immediately involved parties are significantly impacted by an accident. If a train track is damaged, everyone on the train (note the term MASS transit) and everyone on any train behind them is screwed — especially if there is a major accident/fatality. It is (typically) a lot easier to shove cars out of the way than to repair a train track.
Also, one would presume that there is Amtrak in the area.
Quest @ 161:
I think you might be right about the Porsche thing. Despite my financial resources, they refused to sell me one.
Now, I also hear — probably from the same source as yours — that hybrid car makers have a rule that their owners have NO penis and mustn’t bathe. I’m guessing you use massive doses of patchouli?
Have you ever seen a pile up-on a freeway involving a semi. Besides. Why all this focus on an imaginary broken rail lines? Are you out of your single mind???
Quest @ 164: “Are you out of your single mind?”
As opposed to your Lefty “hive mind?”
re 165: Your mother has “The Holland Tunnel” tattooed on her mons.
@147
Gas Tax money is constitutionally mandated to go to roads. Ferries do not count as roads they fall into mass transit. Now you are partially correct in that the money allocated for Ferries would be taken and diverted to road if the gas tax did not provide those funds. Gas Taxes are mandated, but weight fees, tabs, etc… are a free for all.
In the grand scheme of things, you are correct that the gas tax provides funding for the ferries, but directly it does not via the state constitution. Just a technical difference
Quest @ 166
??? She isn’t Dutch.
OTOH, your mother’s says, “Form Two Lines for Faster Service”
Notorious @ 167
In WA, the ferries are officially called “marine highways” and AFAIK they are treated the same as any other road. I know there have been some dust-ups about this in years past and I think that is why the “marine highway” label stuck.
Gas Tax money is constitutionally mandated to go to roads. Ferries do not count as roads they fall into mass transit.
That’s wrong. Article II Section 40 of the Washington Constitution specifically lists ferries as part of the state’s highway system. Therefore they get gas tax $. If you don’t like it, get a constitutional amendment passed.
Bax @ 170
Now if we could either ADD tolls to every pavement highway or remove every fare from the ferries, things would even up!
Janet S. @ “if these structures are truly the danger presented here, and the our current ELECTED officials take no action, then they are guilty of negligent homicide.”
Sorry I’m late getting to this. Janet S., our current ELECTED officials DID take action. If you had read the newspaper earlier this year, you would have discovered that the Legislature, backed by Gov. (Yes, Gov.!) Gregoire, passed a gas tax that members knew would be very politically unpopular. Why would they stick their necks that far? Because they, and I’m talking about both Democrats and Republicans, realized that this state’s infrastructure is reaching the point of collapse (is sinking a collapse?) and that they HAD to act. So they DID act. Now, possibly well-meaning by misinformed and misdirected people are trying to UNDO that prudent action. To those people: STOP!
anti @ 172
If the roads are actually death traps, then they did NOTHING to prevent fatalities because the only immediate solution would be to close the roads.
The roads need repair and some form of financing for that is appropriate, but calling them death traps — or words to that effect — is merely fear-mongering for political gain.