Light rail opponents like to ridicule transit planners for ignoring what they see as a cheaper, more flexible, quicker to deploy alternative: buses. Well, now is the time to see if these rail critics will walk the walk… or in this case, ride the bus.
King County Executive Ron Sims will announce today a plan for the largest expansion of bus service in over two decades:
The plan, nicknamed “Transit Now,” promises Metro Transit runs between downtown Seattle and West Seattle, Ballard and Aurora Avenue North every 10 minutes, with equally frequent trips from Bellevue to Redmond and along Pacific Highway South.
[…]
Other Metro proposals under the tax plan include:
I bet stefan will condemn the plan
we need more free parking
Prediction: no they won’t. This is the “Something for Nothing” crowd after all. 190 new busses should just miraculously appear out of Bush’s rib as far as they’re concerned.
As suspected:
Yeah, who needs useful rail? Those “silly” Londoners and Parisians and New Yorkans, to name just a few “silly” folks, could do fine with just buses. Silly, silly people.
I actually just posted something on this about the same time you did. I support enhancing and expanding bus service instead of spending money on rail. I would not support raising more taxes for public transportation as long as billions are being wasted on rail boondoggles that serve only a fraction of the people that would benefit from better bus service.
Goldy-
You don’t get it. It is all about the money. How many buses could have been bought with the dollars already wasted by ST? Instead, King Ron ‘needs’ MORE money to buy buses now. Good luck getting that past the voters.
And the beauty of more buses is it gets more poor people off the roads so the rich can drive themselves places faster. Of course if doesn’t really work that way, but that’s the Rightists’ perception.
Not that I should claim to speak for them, but my sense is $3/Gal gas will just emphasize their belief in their god-given right to spend their money how they want and screw the community.
Too bad about the sales tax, but yes, what choice does local government have? Me, I like the bus. My bike wheels don’t get caught in bus tracks. I rode the bus today. I was the stinkiest person on my bus.
We don’t need any more bus service in King County. Passengers pay less than 10% of the costs of operating the existing bus service. Why pour more money down the drain? For the cost of operating the existing transit service, we could buy an automobile for each rider, as well as cover the insurance, gasoline and maintenance on the automobile.
It is bad enough to have regressive taxes. But to pour the money down the drain on such a high-cost, low-demand item as public transit is inexcusable.
It’s worth .001 to me for 10 minute service. Much better than monorail for my purposes. As part of an overall transit strategy, it makes sense.
Anybody who thinks that busses are generally better than rail has never been stuck in baseball traffic downtown after a game. My city bus gets stuck in the same traffic as everyone in a car. Grade-separated rail doesn’t have that problem (which is why, even at a high capital cost, it’s way better).
where did you copy your most recent comments from?
Commentby headless lucy— 4/18/06@ 9:10 am …………………………………………………………………[Headless Lucy, Try not to end your sentences with prepositions. This shows your lack of education.]
Commentby Hillary [JCH]Clinton— 4/18/06@ 9:25 am
we need more free parking
Commentby Mount Olympus Hiker— 4/18/06@ 10:03 am ……………………………………………………………………….[Democrats want free everything. Parasite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
It’s worth .001 to me for 10 minute service. Much better than monorail for my purposes. As part of an overall transit strategy, it makes sense.
Commentby voter advocate— 4/18/06@ 10:27 am ””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””[In other words, I don’t care if this is a waste of taxpayer’s money. As long as I get mine for free!!! Typical lib!!]
FUCK you punks…
Whether we LIKE it ot not…ST rail IS HAPPENNING!!!!!
Get over it.
Transit is still a major issue here and it’s time for all you “Citizens For More Important Things”…who haven’t done FUCK since you tried to stonewall the Stadium…to get behind an issue that really DOES an important thing.
Just ONCE!
I DARE ya’…double dog dare ya’.
If King County is really supposed to add 250,000 new jobs in the next decade, then — WE DON’T NEED TO INCREASE THE SALES TAX RATE.
More jobs means more purchases by the businesses who are employing a quarter million more people. In addition, the quarter million new employees will be purchasing things too.
We will have more sales tax revenue, so there is no need to increase the sales tax going to public transportation from 0.2% to 0.3%.
AND MAYBE MORE PEOPLE WILL ACTUALLY RIDE THE EXISTING BUSSES. If that is the case, there will be more revenue from fares and less need for a massive taxpayer subsidy.
Hey jch-
You’re geezin’ too much crank, man. I know you nazi’s like to make the shit but you really ARE coming unglued.
Time to go back to reee-hab.
Hey…
Who’s got the (Richard) Poop Scoop.
There’s a pile on the floor here that needs pickin’ up.
Some people compare London and Paris, and how they have subway/rail systems. However, I would imagine that the public subsidy in London and Paris is far less than the 90% to 99% subsidy that is typical in the United States. Many European transit systems actually make a profit and don’r require any subsidy at all.
10.
Until a project can get off the ground without spinning hopelessly out of budget (think monorail) I’m for less ambitious approaches.
Oakland CA replaced the Cypress freeway with a completely new route to the brigdge in the amount of time spent bickering over the Viaduct. I’m not hopeful about Seattle transportation projects getting done.
Here’s something to think about. People said that our roads are subsidized too, so why not subsidize public transportation? But car drivers pay the road subsidy themselves, through gasoline taxes. Bus riders do not pay the subsidy, but instead pass the burden on to other taxpayers.
It is 11 miles from my home in east Bellevue to downtown Seattle. My car gets about 22 miles per gallon, so I will burn a gallon of gasoline on a round trip. I will spend $3.00 for the gallon of gasoline. 31 cents for state taxes, and close to 20 cents for federal taxes. I pay all the costs of the roads I drive on at the pump when I buy the gasoline.
If I take the bus to Seattle for a round trip, this costs $4.00 during peak hours. However, the bus fare pays less than 10% of the cost of operating the transit system. The remaining cost — over $40.00 per trip — gets paid for by other taxpayers.
I actually just posted something on this about the same time you did.
Comment by Stefan Sharkansky — 4/18/06 @ 10:15 am
………………………………………………………………[Its not a fucking race shithead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
Richard Pope-
The busses that run in the city (1,2,3,4,7,9,10,11,12, etc) make a profit for Metro, and subsidize other routes. As for demand: I guess you’ve never been jammed in a 71 to the U-Dist. at rush hour, because that is one in-demand route.
Well, I do need to slightly correct my figures.
Fares provide 14% of the costs of public transportation in King County.
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/.....92004.html
So it is still a terrible bargain for our tax dollars.
Will @ 22
Let’s assume that you are correct.
That would mean that a full bus (100% of capacity) will make a profit for Metro.
However, Metro only covers 14% of its costs through fares.
This means that the average Metro bus only operates at 14% or less of its capacity.
Some Metro busses are full of passengers.
Therefore, many Metro busses have far less than 14% of capacity.
This means we need fewer Metro busses, and not more. All of the busses that are operating at less than 10% of capacity should certainly be eliminated. Maybe even those operating at less than 20% of capacity.
Pope wrote: “My car gets about 22 miles per gallon”
Only 22 miles per gallon? How wasteful of you? Stop complaining about how much it costs you until you’ve upgraded to a vehicle that does better mileage. Better still, demand that your government force better fuel efficiency from all cars driving on US roads.
I’m curious how adding more buses into a system where people already ignore the bus system is a vialble option?
Seriously Goldy, when is the last time you parked your car and rode a bus? Even better, when was the last time Ron Simms rode a bus? As a matter of fact, that applies to the majority of people on this board?
The bussing system sucks in this city. I live in the CD and commute to Ballard. On the bus that takes about an hour and a half to two hours and requires two transfers and about a two mile walk. Based on a 5 day work week, That’s an additional 3- 4 hours of cummuting, per day, 15-20 hours per week or 32.5 days – 43.3 days days per year.
Take a look as you drive, I see too many people driving around in a one preson per car scenario.
We should not be talking about inceasing taxes to increase bus services. rather, tax credits for people people car pooling.
Looks like jch has been up for oh…I’d guess 5-7 DAYS.
Speed fraks get really testy when they’ve been awake for a few days.
Just think of the buses that could have been paid for from the light rail budget.
Richard-
Busses at the BEGINNING or the END of a route are likely to be near empty.
Let’s see — a Metro bus pass costs $792.00 per year to include all of King County and peak pricing. Fares cover only 14% of Metro’s budget. This means that it costs a total of $5,657 for Metro to cover the costs of the average annual bus pass holder.
My automobile costs less than $5,657 to own, operate, maintain, insure, fuel, and depreciate. I can use it any hour, day or night, and go from my house to wherever I want to go. I can safely transport my three year old daughter in my automobile (assuming no careless enthusiastic Democrat congressional candidates are on the road).
So automobiles are a far better bargain than public transportation. This would remain the case, even if gasoline was $5.00 or $6.00 per gallon.
Momus-
Do you take the 3 or 4 and then transfer to the 15 and 18? Is that 2 hours each way?
The Poster Child Moonbat said this:
“And the beauty of more buses is it gets more poor people off the roads so the rich can drive themselves places faster. Of course if doesn’t really work that way, but that’s the Rightists’ perception.”
Are you punch drunk? I would take the bus to the airport if it ran on time and was dependable for me to get their at a specific time all the time. I would gladly save the gas (not to pollute with my SUV!) and not give the wear and tear issues upon my SUV! Oh BTW, I don’t cheat and use the carpool lanes like I see those who have Dean, Kerry, Save the Earth, or PETA stickers on their cars.
Poster Child Moonbat you are so funny!
One of the four dumb monkeys and three dull knives said this: “FUCK you punks…
Whether we LIKE it ot not…ST rail IS HAPPENNING!!!!!
Get over it.
Transit is still a major issue here and it’s time for all you “Citizens For More Important Things”…who haven’t done FUCK since you tried to stonewall the Stadium…to get behind an issue that really DOES an important thing.
Just ONCE!
I DARE ya’…double dog dare ya’.
Commentby rujax206— 4/18/06@ 10:34 am”
Dingleberry Transit Champion Rudejacks; Who built a convention center over an interstate? Who narrowed the right of way for I-5 when it was under construction through Seattle? Donks rudejacks!
But Richard Pope and other solo car commuters aren’t paying the full cost of the environmental degradation of their transportation choices. Add in the cost of the Navy protecting the international shipping lanes (Thanks, JCH for your service). If all you care about is Me Me Me Me Me, as is the Rightists’ wont, then yes, driving your car every day makes a lot of sense.
I’m hopeful that ‘s not all we care about.
Ooooohhh….ooooohhhh…
The Pee-Dookie SMACKDOWN!!!!
I’m SOOOOOOOOO SKEEEEEERED!
We just need to stop throwing tax dollars down the drain on useless and unnecessary expenditures.
It is obviously ridiculous to operate a fleet of nearly empty busses, when only 14% of the costs are being paid by transit fares. As Will said, a full bus will actually operate at a profit.
And even more ridiculous to increase taxes so we can operate even more nearly empty busses.
There are other absurd expenditures. Such as the 0.4% that we are spending for Sound Transit — which happens to be twice the 0.2% sales tax subsidy we are providing to King County Metro. Sound Transit also gets a 0.3% MVET as well.
Even when Sound Transit finally builds its system, it will handle only a fraction of the number of passengers that King County Metro handles. And most Sound Transit passengers will be coming from King County Metro.
As I said before, we could buy every regular transit rider an automobile and pay for its gas, maintenance and insurance for the costs of the transit subsidies that we are currently paying for.
What a dumb fucking bitch you are “puddy-bud”…with your dumb fucking bitch handle and your dumb fucking bitch posts.
Poster Child Moonbat @ 34
“But Richard Pope and other solo car commuters aren’t paying the full cost of the environmental degradation of their transportation choices. Add in the cost of the Navy protecting the international shipping lanes…”
The environmental degradation from public transit is even greater than from solo car commuters.
The gasoline per passenger mile consumed by busses is actually greater than for automobiles — largely because most busses are nearly empty.
The resources that go into building a bus per passenger mile are far greater. A bus cost about a millon dollars, can carry about 40 passengers, and usually carries less than 10. A car costs about $25,000 on average and always carries at least one person. So even a full bus costs as much as a solo car.
Teddy Kennedy, John Kerry, George Soros, Hillary Clinton, Ralph Nader – as Schweitzer documents, all these scolds of capitalist greed and champions of the down-trodden have done very well manipulating the system to increase their own power and privilege so that their money doesn’t end up in the government’s hands to finance the social justice schemes they loudly champion.
On racial issues too, these progressives may talk like angels, but they live like men. For all their professed love of “people of color” and anguish over racism, few of America’s most visible liberals actually live around or hire minorities – even Cornel West, Princeton professor and wannabe rap star, lives in Newton, whose black population is about two percent, meaning Professor West is unlikely to be hanging out with the brothers in the backyard.
When the Clintons came to Washington, they could have sent a powerful message of support for D.C. public schools by enrolling Chelsea in a neighborhood school like Jefferson or Hine. But of course, they enrolled her instead in the super-elite Sidwell Friends. Chomsky, who claims to be fond of fraternizing with the working class and “‘those considered to be riff-raff,’” as he puts it, has no intentions of actually living near any of them. About the time forced busing was imposed on the Boston area, Chomsky moved to the tony suburb of Lexington, buying a house worth nearly a million dollars. He also owns a vacation home in Wellfleet, worth $1.2. “Radical” author Howard Zinn “owns two homes in expensive lily-white Wellfleet and a third in multicultural Auburndale (minority population 3.3 percent).”
Like all rich people, rich liberals understandably want to live around and have their children associate with other rich people. But they at least can prove their commitment to diversity with their hiring choices, an opportunity on which most of them pass, including Congressional Democrats, who hire black employees at the same rate as Republicans do. Michael Moore has loudly chastised Hollywood for not hiring enough blacks. Yet Schweitzer’s survey of the 134 people who have worked on his films show a grand total of three black employees.
Comedian Al Franken has criticized Republicans for being indifferent to black unemployment. But of “112 people whom Franken either hired directly or had a strong influence in determining whether they would work on a project,” only one was black. Another hectoring liberal, Barbra Streisand, has hired one black producer out of sixty-three producers and directors she’s employed since 1983. Even for a documentary she produced about gang violence in Washington, D.C., the producers and the director were white.
On issue after issue, Schweitzer unmasks the reality behind the self-righteous preaching of America’s so-called progressives. Ted Kennedy decries “corporate welfare” and “giveaways,” but he still takes depletion allowances and drilling deductions on his family’s oil holdings. Ralph Nader loves unions, but not for the staff of his publication the Multinational Monitor. Democratic House Leader Nancy Pelosi has received the Cesar Chavez award as a champion of labor, but none of the workers picking grapes on her $25 million Napa Valley vineyard are from Chavez’s U.F.W. Pelosi also owns a large share of an exclusive resort in Napa, and none of its 250 employees belong to a union. Nor do any of the 900 employees of Piatti, a restaurant chain Pelosi is a partner in.
Barbra Streisand has waxed lyrical on the need to limit our wasteful energy consumption that threatens the environment. Yet Streisand, whose foundation owns stocks in several oil companies, spent $22,000 dollars a year just to water the lawn of her Malibu home. And she has an air-conditioned twelve-thousand-square foot barn just to house her show business memorabilia. That’s a lot of greenhouse gases.
Richard-
What’s wrong with bus riders switching to trains? When they open new freeways, they don’t say “what a failure- these folks are the some people who drove on the old freeway.” Adding infrastructure to busy routes makes sense.
Well. I for one will ride more if the busses for my primary route run often enough that I dont have to read a schedule to plan ahead for a local trip. So I think Sims has the right idea.
One long standing weak point of the Seattle bus system as highlighted by momus is the lack of efficient transport between neighborhoods as opposed to just neighborhood to downtown. Hopefully decreased wait times will reduce this inefficiency by cutting out unpredictable wait times for transfers.
Goldy: your question seems to have been answered, at least in your wacked out comment section: anti-[light/mono]rail advocates mainly just want to kill public transportation and public infrastructure in general. The argument that bus systems can do everything that needs to be done was just the argument of the day. They only support public investment when it is likely to put money directly in their pocket or protect them from the untouchables (for example, making it easy enough to ride their iso-cars rather than be in the same vehicle with the “masses”.
JCH, seeing as that was actually coherent, if stupid, you should credit your copy and pasting: http://www.victorhanson.com/ar.....40206.html
Will any Democrats go to see Universal’s new movie, “United 93”? Will Hillary allow libs to see this movie??
Anonymous, Will any Democrats go to see Universal’s new movie, “United 93″? Will Hillary allow libs to see this movie??
Chetbob…
Or even better, increasing the number of express buses from say west seattle – ballard or the CD – Ballard etc…..
Personally, I’d also like to see more police officers on the buses as well.
There’s nothing like riding our buses and showing up at work smelling like a drunken homeless person.
“hey, what’s that smell…. why that’s the bus”
Personally, I’d also like to see more police officers on the buses as well.
Commentby momus— 4/18/06@ 11:40 am
In New Orleans, they were actually paying bus drivers more than police officers.
I wonder how salaries compare here. Probably we do pay our police officers slightly more than bus drivers.
Realistically, a bus driver should get a lot less than a police officer. But the labor unions and the extreme tax subsidies result in bus driving being a relatively lucrative profession.
Increased police expenditures provide a lot more public benefit than do increased transit subsidies.
All this is about one tenth of one cent?
Sims is brillant. Called the bluffs, you are right on Goldy.
You bet, more busses.Helps a lot, quickly, and without high tech issues. Go Ron. I am in.
I have not taken a bus in 10 years. I drive, carpool and avoid rush hour at every chance.
By the way – both London and Paris are giant mega cities, showplace world view popping international capitols of their countries — how the hell do you comapare them to Seattle???
Each has a population pushing ten million and money gushing.
Silly comparisons. How about Seattle to Oaklahoma City or Nashville or Colombus??
The sales tax is high enough — if Metro needs more money, raise fares. Us senior rabbits on fixed incomes with high medical expenses already are subsidizing 2/3rd’s of the cost of a bus ride for commuters who have a lot more money than we do.
Wow Rudejacks@37, that was a real intelligent display of your brain power. Please Rudejacks, how did you become soooooo stupid?
Anonymous: Did you read his book? Wasn’t it a great delineation of moonbat twofacedness? I really liked his Michael Moore and George Soros commentary!!!
Carpooling is great on paper, but the problem is finding someone going to the same place you are, on the same time schedule. And what about people who have to use their own car for their jobs? It doesn’t work for a lot of people.
If you think about it, America’s lifestyle doesn’t make sense. Our infrastructure and economy are based on profligate consumption of unlimited supplies of cheap oil that will last forever! If your job involves driving a forklift or pouring concrete, obviously you have to drive to work. But look how many “intellectual workers” we have commuting to offices to do work they could do in their kitchens. This type of commuting is sheer waste — of highway lanes, fuel, air pollution, etc. It’s a lot easier and cheaper to move information by electricity than it is to move bodies by rail, bus, or automobile! We need to rethink how we do work in this country.
Wasn’t the .2% sales tax increase approved by the voters of King County?
I believe that we should respect the will of our citizens.
47
“All this is about one tenth of one cent?”
No, all this is about 8.9%. The trollfucks sense they have an issue here, and they’re right, although they’re too stupid to know why. The sales tax has hit a ceiling — it’s reached the level of taxpayer resistance to further increases. The original baseball stadium proposal based on a sales tax increase foundered, remember? The stadium went through only after the funding mechanism was changed to a tax on hotel rooms and rental cars that primarily hits out of town visitors. And what about the 1-cent sales tax increase for education funding? Remember how that one got clobbered at the polls? And don’t forget, a pending RTA tax package we haven’t seen yet is out there. The problem is not 1/10th of a cent, but the fact the 1/10th-cent increases never stop coming — they race toward us, one after another, and cumulatively ADD UP TO BIG BUCKS ripped out of family budgets that are already stressed. Taxes do get to a point where people just can’t stand any more, and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from recent elections that the sales tax has reached the resistance point. No, Sims’ new transit tax is not doable, in my opinion.
If the buses start running every ten minutes 4 doors from my house, I won’t drive downtown when that is the case.
It is far too expensive for me to park in town, and the buses go everywhere I need to go.
Roger….
It’s not about 8.9%
It’s about yet another excuse to add to taxes.
Remember Queen Chrsitines, ” I will not raise taxes”?
Whatever happened to those layoffs she talked about in order to raise the taxes?
What was the time period between her being sworn in and taxes being raised?
On the critics, sorry, they will not. Dori Monson wants Sound Transit stopped first. Unfortunately, the construction is too far advanced, and the SODO segment is already completed. The Emerald Mole(Tunnel Boring Machine) is chewing threw Beacon Hill, strated in January, and earlier this month they reached the initia 400ft Test Run. Now they are installing the trailing gear and conveyor belt, and then they will be re-starting.
As for Metro, their are many gaps in service and frequency. I would like to see a condition that a portion of any new service in Seattle be Trackless Trolleys. It was a mistake for an un-responsive Seattle Transit Commission to go diesel in 1963, and thankfully when Metro took over in 1973, they restored service on several routes that went diesel, including the 7. They need to pick up where they left off on the 44, with more crosstown routes, and fill gaps in diesel routes that share common ground with Trackless Trolley Routes. The 8 can go under wire, and not getting much press because rail gets more press, in South Lake Union their is a proposal for a crosstown bus route, and it was mentioned in SDOT documents, that it should be a Trackless Trolley due to steep grades to get to Capitol Hill. If more Trackless Trolleys and Hybrids are deployed, maintenance could be easier, with remaining diesel routes in Seattle be put on eaiser terrain, and then the diesel buses re-deployed to other services. If Metro in the 1970s had decided to restore the Trackless Trolleys to their pre-1963 network, they would have considerable fuel savings today. The 15 and 18 were supposed to be re-electrified in the 1980s, but the money was sapped for the Suburbanites to get their Bus Tunnel.
Goldy…
Do you EVER ride the bus? The busses from Seattle < -> Redmond have been Standing Room Only for over a year now. :)
The thing keeping people off some of the busses today is capacity.
Heath (A frequent bus commuter.)
@53: Yes, Roger, the poor and the middle class are reduced to fighting over the scraps, and this plays right into the hands of the Party Of Legalized Theft (aka GOP). Stiff resistance to more taxes is understandable, given that real income has made little, if any, progress in the last quarter century.
Who gets the blame? Liberals. Hollywood. The very of idea of government itself. The rich shall cocoon themselves in their gated communities, believing they are “safe” from the unwashed.
However, if we continue to insist on “economic growth” and ignore the externalities, the chickens will indeed come home to roost. “Muddling through” may finally have run its course.
Post #56 was me, I forgot to log-in.
In response to empty buses, I ride them all the time, and often cannot find a seat on Route 7. On Route 39, they lopped off the Southcenter leg to pay for better service along the route. We got the previous schedule, but all trips now run through to Downtown, especially since the route runs half-full between Ranier Beach and the VA, and then fills up until it connects with the SODO Busway at S. Spokane St. A bus does not have to be full from terminal to terminal. In fact, the 7 has a high turnover in ridership. People ride it for short distances, it may even pay it’s own way, unlike Route 152, Enumclaw to Seattle.
Also, if new Trackless Trolleys are procured, get a few new ones for a change instead of what they have been doing in this current cycle. The 4100 series look just like the 40ft High Floor Diesel bus, the Gillig Phantom, because Metro bought 100 of them minus the diesels, and refurbished motors from the 1978 buses they replaced. Those buses served for 25 years. The tunnel fleet recently retired, has seen 60 of those buses converted from Dual-Mode to pure Trackless Trolleys, giving them another decade at least. Going Low-Floor for the Trackless Trolley fleet is something METRO should do. That would ease loading at major stops.
Momus Pompous Assus @55
“Roger…. It’s not about 8.9% It’s about yet another excuse to add to taxes. Remember Queen Chrsitines, ” I will not raise taxes”? Whatever happened to those layoffs she talked about in order to raise the taxes? What was the time period between her being sworn in and taxes being raised? Commentby momus— 4/18/06@ 12:24 pm”
Yep, I was right — trollfucks are too stupid to understand this issue! When an idiot like Momus can’t even get it straight that Ron Sims, not the Governor, is proposing this tax increase — well, how can you even have an elementary discussion with someone so lacking in comprehension at so fundamental a level? It’s useless to try.
58
There’s no problem here that can’t be solved by not wasting $300 billion on a useless, losing war.
I say hit up the assholes who wanted this war for its cost, and give tax relief to the rest of us.
Talk of “empty buses” is another example of why trollfucks are too stupid to exploit this issue, when they’ve finally got a real issue! Only ignoramuses who haven’t set foot on a bus in 15 years talk about “empty buses.” There are no empty buses, except in the late evening hours. Even 10 years ago, when I was working in north downtown, I had to get on a bus in the tunnel and ride it to the Pioneer Square station, then get off and board a northbound bus to suburbia, in order to get a seat on the northbound bus. The commuter buses are standing room only, and have been for years.
The issue here is not whether buses are underutilitized (they’re not) or whether we need more buses (we do), the issue is who pays for them. The issue is not the idea of spending more money on buses, the problem is that Sim’s proposal makes retirees on fixed incomes pay higher taxes to subsidize higher-income commuters who currently pay fares that cover only about 20% of Metro’s expenses.
Buses are a good investment for Seattle. The only question is who pays for them.
Put the issue in this perspective: What makes more sense, raising the sales tax, or raising fares? Car drivers are paying more for fuel, consumers are paying more for food in the grocery stores, inflation is coming back and everyone is paying more for everything, so why should bus riders be insulated from fare increases?
The one disadvantage as I see it of buses (and “light rail”, for that matter) as opposed to “commuter rail” could be demonstrated by a simple experiment: Put a lounge car on the Sounder train and watch it fill up. That’s right–sell ’em booze and the most die-hard suburban burghers will leave their mega-SUV’s at home.
Roger….
Glad to see that you are able to have a discussion without immediately sinking to personal attacks and vulgarities.
Now back to the discussion, the issue is about democrats taking every possible excuse to raise taxes.
The idea Simms is proposing has merit, burt it’s not just an issue of adding more buses.
Lets be like Portland, spend 50% of our transportation money on mass transit which will carry 4% of the commuters at maximum capacity if they are lucky. http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/2002/pd012202e.html
http://americandreamcoalition.org/penalty.html
http://www.publicpurpose.com/u.....-05-10.htm
Heres a little reading to get you started
Rabbit at 51,
You hit the nail on the head about the difficulty with carpooling; my school age child is always going the same way I am and that’s about the only time I drive. What I don’t agree with is the obviousness of concrete pourers and forklift drivers needing to drive themselves to work. That just plays into the red-state crew-cab 4×4 driving mindset that is the cornerstone of the lifestyle that doesn’t make any sense. Most of those guys park their forklifts and cement trucks in the same place every evening, right?
Selfish and Lazy – that’s what we are. I am; I admit it.
Rodger – one tenth of one percent.
It will float. The Monorail collapse is a great set up.
The mantra in the streets, halls, alleys, busses, public meetings —–MASS TRANSIT, now.
Sims is brilliant.
Seattle will vote yes, big time, and screw you to the the rednecks in bumfuckvilles across the lake.
Go Ron, brilliant and great timeing. Remember the Monorail Tax washes out this fall or winter – their land salea are going well.
Hey I ride the bus every day. I tell everyone who wants to switch from cars to the bus not to do it. First I think buses are better than light-rail and the Sounder. Second I know that buses are essential to the county. I know all this. But, Metro is so porly run that Taking the bus is a miserable experience many times. For example I usuially take one of two routs the 194, which is good most of the time, and the 174 which is always a pain. If Metro wants more people to ride they need to make a few changes. First get rid of that stupid ride free zone, make everyone pay when they get on. That will bring in more money and make those of us who use the product pay for the product, What a thought, this would also reduce the need to steal from the taxpayers. Second enforce the Metro Code of Conduct. This is a simple one the rules are posted on almost every bus. Third make the schedule a schedule, stay on time. Finially when a driver does not do what he is supposed to do get rid of them. I once had a driver stop to talk to hookers and go grocery shopping while on duty during the middle of the route, after starting 20 minutes late. He was late because he he just did not want to leave yet. Last I checked he is still working and never got in trouble. When I tell liberals this I get accused of being stupid or heartless. What do i know I just ride the bus.
In regard to new LRT service, an Oregon Department of Transportation study suggested an apparent impact of Portland’s Westside MAX Light Rail line on traffic. The study concluded that increased transit trips in the Westside corridor, stimulated by the MAX extension, tended to keep pace with auto trip growth, with the result that traffic would be significantly heavier without those transit improvements. Looking at the data collected in the periods May 1993, October 1997, and May 1999, researchers found that “transit’s share of westbound trips leaving downtown during evening rush hour increased 5 percent, while the share of drive alone auto trips declined 3 percent.”
Metro, the Portland regional government, annually tracks vehicle miles driven for the region from roadway vehicle counts. From 1990 to 1999 the region’s actual VMT [Vehicle Miles Traveled] rose 33%. During the same time period the region saw a 21% increase in population.
However, the miles per person per day have stabilized since 1996 at about 21 miles/person/day. This is in part due to the fact that the Portland region has stayed approximately the same size and its transit usage has increased by 42% over the same time period. As of mid-2000, transit usage had increased in 103 out of the previous 104 months.
Today, 75% of Portland’s public transportation users are car owners that have chosen transit over auto use, at least for some trips.
“Projected Ridership for New Light Rail Starts: Issues of Accuracy and Impact on Congestion,” by Lyndon Henry and Samuel J. Archer, from 2001 Rail Transit Conference Proceedings, American Public Transportation Association, June 10-14, 2001
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How many construction sites are next to a bus stop? Have you really looked at a map of the bus routes? Buses work great if you’re going downtown. To get from Burien to Lake City, or Georgetown to Kent, it’s unworkable.
I really wonder how many of you have actually had a job that requires you to travel all over King County, with daily or frequent changes of work site, and tried to do it by bus. I have done it. Have you?
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“Roger…. Glad to see that you are able to have a discussion without immediately sinking to personal attacks and vulgarities.
Commentby momus— 4/18/06@ 1:21 pm”
Did you even read my post? Can you read at all? I called you “stupid” and an “idiot.” You trollfucks can’t even pay me a compliment without lying! I FUCKING INSULTED YOU!!! Sheesh. Assus, you’re a basket case.
Why, you may ask, should we as conservatives care how transit benefits non-riders? Because, for the most part, we are talking about our own. Most conservatives do not ride transit. Why? Because in most of America, the high quality transit conservatives demand is not available. Most of us have cars and can drive, and if the alternative is a bus, we do drive. As our previous studies have shown, when high quality rail transit is available, conservatives will be happy to use it. But in most places, it’s just not there.
The answer, obviously, is to build more rail transit. Conservatives, and others who can drive, benefit more from Light Rail and commuter rail than anyone else. They benefit because it is transit they may want to ride and, as we will demonstrate here, they benefit from it even if they don’t ride it. Sometimes we are tempted, at referendum time, to grab our unseeing fellow conservatives by the lapels of their Brooks Brothers suits and shout, “Come on, wake up! This is transit for us!”
How Transit Benefits People Who Do Not Ride It: A Conservative Inquiry
By Paul M. Weyrich and William S. Lind
I wish more people would ride the bus so I can get to work faster…
Rail transit benefit people who do not ride it, non-riders benefit more than twice as much, in terms of time saved from traffic congestion, as do the people who are riding the trains! The study went on to convert the time savings into dollar savings, at a rate of $15 per hour (somewhat less than the hourly rate of all those lawyers, doctors and accountants caught in traffic, we would guess). It found annual savings of more than $225 million provided by rail transit, with transit riders getting $65 million, people driving to the same destinations $82 million, and drivers in parallel corridors $78 million. In dollar terms, people who still drive benefited almost twice as much as the transit riders. If that isn’t an argument why people who don’t ride rail transit should support it anyway, we don’t know what one would be.
JCH, seeing as that was actually coherent, if stupid, you should credit your copy and pasting: http://www.victorhanson.com/ar.....40206.html
Wingnuts don’t quote, credit or attribute stolen, plagiarized material: http://www.dailykos.com/commen...../06308/103
MommyBoy @ 69: “Now back to the discussion, the issue is about democrats taking every possible excuse to raise taxes.”
No, that is not the issue. Next.
Dicky Pope @46: “Realistically, a bus driver should get a lot less than a police officer.”
Nice to see you don’t believe in neoliberal economics either. When did the light bulb go on?
Richard Pope @ 8: “It is bad enough to have regressive taxes.”
Gawd! Richard is a tax reformer, too!
A couple months ago I reluctantly accepted a job on the Eastside. We live in northeast Seattle, amd I previously did the “reverse commute” (meaning the opposite of the way the planners THOUGHT most of the traffic would be going) for 19 years. After nearly a decade spent mostly working in the city (and commuting on the bus) I find myself working on cool stuff with a really great bunch of people, and getting really well paid for it. The downside is creeping along Goddamned 520 with all my fellow lemmings. I’ve discovered that bus service has been cut back over the last few years, especially in the evenings. I tried to take the bus one day, but after working until 6:30 I wound up spending hours waiting for one bus and then another, and then finally riding dowtown to catch the #71, which got me home by 10:30. I’ll GLADLY pay more in taxes, fares, or whatever to be able to doze off while the guy in the front seat curses at the traffic. To those of you who are so addicted to masturbating your egos by hauling yourselves to work in your mega-SUV’s, go ahead…just think, the next time you’re stuck in traffic, about how nice it would be if the drivers of 50 or so of the cars in your way were riding the bus instead. If you can’t comprehend that that might improve your life just a bit, I question whether you have the intelligence to be piloting that thing around anyway.
Folks, hate to break this to you, but automobile transportation is also subsidized. Sorry for the interruption, please do carry on.
I’ll ride the bus regularly when Ron Sims does. I would bet that Stefan, Pope and many other Sims critics would be willing to take the same pledge.
I thought I recalled ads touting how you can read & relax on a humid, pungent, crowded bus. Ron could definitely relax.
Security? The bus is safe. Right, Ron? Safe enough for you (MetroKC) to encourage families and people from all walks of life to take the bus??? OK, OK. So Ron has a few more enemies than the average person. What’s say we spot a couple of Metro passes for a pair of hulking bodyguards for Ron.
Ron’s a busy man with a busy schedule? Well, if the bus schedule doesn’t meet his needs, perhaps he can consider it a life lesson for better understanding his constituents.
Ron needs to work? Bring a laptop computer. I’m sure he can even get some kind of WiFi rig that’ll allow him to check his e-mail and perpetuate wacky joke mail to Council members.
I’ll say it again… I’ll ride the bus regularly when Ron Sims does.
-I see some of my loyal readers are gallantly trying to argue the issue with the trolls, but it’s really futile because a) the anti-transit people really don’t seem to understand much about transit,-
Which is WHY they are anti-transit, the same way your obsessive-compulsive right wing trolls are anti-black, anti-immigrant, anti-semitic, anti-woman, anti-Muslim, etc, etc
Nice observation, Goldy.
(The Real) Mark: No no Mark. Don’t you know libruls know what’s good for us. Don’t complain, take it like a man! NOT!
-There’s no reason to raise taxes to support bus service, all that is needed is to stop wasting money on silly rail projects and spend some of the “savings” on buses.-
Nice prediction, Daniel. This argument is hilarious, since they are comparing two different projects and pots of money. Using this same Stephan “logic” we could all just say that his NeoCon cult is “wasting” $1 trillion of our tax dollars in Iraq (for nothing…and for lies) which is money we could just use for much needed infrastructure in our own country, like schools. In other words, Stephan and his sheep are using pure rhetoric, totally removed from reality. No surprise there.
Ass @ 86… and in general…
“auto transportation is also subsidized”
You bring up a very good point. Perhaps the bus system and rail should run like the ferry system (ruled a “water highway” by the courts). I believe the current operating cost recovery at the farebox on the WSF is around 70%+, with a goal of 80% recovery.
So, how about that $1,000 Light Rail North fare??
We could just look at the extremely narrow question of whether a 0.1% increase in the sales tax for King County Metro transit is needed to serve the stated objectives. I would say that it is not.
For better or worse, we are building the Sound Transit light rail project. Construction is supposedly already under way. It should be finished in a few years. When it is, they say it will have tens of thousands of riders. Most of these will no longer be riding the busses that serve the same corridors. This will free up lots of busses to put on other Metro routes.
Ron Sims says King County will have 250,000 new jobs. That would be approximately 25% more employment. This means 25% more spending and 25% more sales tax revenue from the existing 0.2% sales tax than we would otherwise have. Keep in mind that sales tax revenue tends to grow fairly proportionately with inflation and increases in real (i.e. adjusted for inflation) income. So this is 25% more on top of everything else.
The price of oil is going through the roof. Gasoline is getting more expensive. This will increase the number of people using transit, and result in a higher percentage of revenues from the fare box.
The roads are getting more crowded, and will get worse with 25% more people and/or workers in King County. Again, more people using transit and more fare box revenues.
With higher demand, the cost of parking in downtown Seattle (and downtown Bellevue) will skyrocket and far outpace inflation. Another source for transit demand and increased fare box revenues.
Add everything up, and the expected revenues from the existing 0.2% sales tax and the fare box, plus the freeing up of busses when the light rail starts going, will support a lot more busses without having to pass Ron Sims’ unnecessary regressive sales tax increase.
Ohhh LibrulRedASSNeck you shouldn’t have gone there. You never answered my question on librul anti-black programs for 41 years that perpetuate minority poverty and family destruction in inner cities. Why is that LibrulRedASSNeck? You should look at your own people before accusing others of your actions.
Anti-semitic: We’re neo-cons – lovers of Israel! You are anti-neo-cons, haters of Israel.
Anti-immigrant: We want to make the illegal immigrant a misdemeanor. Donkocrats want the status quo, a felony.
Anti-woman: You hate Janice Rogers Brown, Condoleeza Rice, Linda Chavez, etc. Need I go further.
Anti-muslim: Have you invited Mohammad to live with you? Didn’t think so!
Anti-black: Why are libruls throwing mud at Lynn Swann in Pennsylvania or Michael Steel in Maryland or Ken Blackwell in Ohio? They’s blacks who left de reservation. Jesse Jackson can’t control them anymore!
Nice try LibrulRedASSNeck and your lily white ASS reply!
-I support enhancing and expanding bus service instead of spending money on rail. I would not support raising more taxes for public transportation as long as billions are being wasted on rail boondoggles that serve only a fraction of the people that would benefit from better bus service. –
Too funny. I couple months ago, Stefan said on one of his silly Wayne’s World / Downtown Republican Club interviews that he “likes to take trains in the cities that have them.” My god, as if all those cities didn’t have the same ignorant chorus of anti-rail libertarian freaks like Stefan, who fought the very projects (using the same tired arguments) as he does now!
Fact is, people like trains more than they like buses, and – as such – you get more more people out of their cars, so self-centered jerks like Stephan can sit in a smaller traffic traffic jam than they otherwise would if we hated liberals weren’t taking trains.
Finally, it’s as if clueless hacks like Stephan haven’t figured out that these big projects he hates so much are SUPPORTED by the public – that’s why they are built. This idea that “the man” is somehow socially engineering reactionary right wing SP clowns into trains everybody (in their echo chamber) hates is a flat-out joke. All the polls I have seen in recent years show incredibly high voter support for light rail – and a relatively little support for the SP crowd’s #1 transportation priorities: expanding I-405 and SR 520. If you want massive private property takings, and ever-inflating project costs (before the project has even started), take the Eastside Republicans’ priorities! At the heart of the “conservatives” transportation plan is a billion dollar interchange at 405 and 167. The price of this one, single interchange alone has increased fourfold in the past several years, and will STILL be congested once it’s built out.
This is a fine example of the kind of dynamic out of the box thinking that keeps Ron Sims in office. Wow… a tax increase so we can clog up the roads with more empty buses. This would increase county employment quite a bit too with cushy gummint jobs where there’s no accountability. Drivers, “managers”, maintenance guys, garages and stuff. Huge empire to be built here.
Tax increases and empty buses. Gotta love it. Only in FUKC.
Just think of the things we could do with some of our wasted tax dollars if government were run more efficiently.
One example is the $50 million per year that Ron Sims wants to piss down the drain with an unnecessary exponential expansion of the Metro transit subsidy.
Another example is the $62.7 million per year that the Port of Seattle takes from King County taxpayers each year to subsidize seaport operations. Why shouldn’t those be breaking even? If government can’t make them break even, I am sure we could sell the docks to private companies that could make a profit. (Not to mention that private companies would have to PAY property tax on the docks to boot.)
If we took this same $112.7 million per year, we could subsidize health insurance for tens of thousands of lower income working adults in King County who make too much money to qualify for Medicaid. This would go quite far towards achieving universal health care in King County.
Had we not decided to do the Sound Transit boondoggle, the 0.4% sales tax spent on that project, together with the 0.3% MVET, total about $250 million that could have been spent on pressing human needs. This would have basically been enough to provide universal health care in King County for those not already insured or covered by existing government programs for the retired and low income.
Liberal Democrats always talk about universal health care, but they are never willing to actually propose anything to establish it. And they would much rather waste money which could fund this on relatively unproductive programs instead.
The only place in the USA where universal health care has been established happens to be Massachusetts — under Republican leadership. The Democrats in that state kept talking and promising for many decades, and never delivered — despite having 80% majorities in the state legislature.
It took a Republican — Governor Mitt Romney — to make the Democrats put their money where their mouth was. Rather than spending countless billions to have a total government takeover of the health care system, Romney instead used modest spending increases to subsidize health insurance for all lower income adults who weren’t already covered by their employer or an existing government program.
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I have been saying on discussion boards for years that as more SOUNDER trains run in the Kent Valley, that the Peak-Hour routes to Seattle should be re-evaluated to see if it would be more economical to re-route those buses, and possibly re-allocating that service to local services in South King County. Metro mentioned when they were considering re-aligning services in the Auburn area that Route 152 has some riders get off at Auburn Station, to transfer to SOUNDER in the morning. That route goes from Enumclaw to Seattle.
It is interesting how well Metro has done in getting ridershp. They run between 90-100 million anual riders. In 1972, when the voters approved the Metro take-over of transit in King County, Seattle Transit ridership had dwindled to 30 million, and privately-owned Metropolitan Transit Co. was not doing much better, and was going bankrupt. Seattle Transit’s finest hour may have been in 1944, when they carried 130 million riders, but there was a war on then.
If the county would get rid of that stupid ride free zone, which only benefits the city of Seattle, as Ron Sims likes it, and make EVERYONE pay to ride the bus we might need more taxes. I ride the bus and I pay everytime. I am tired of deadbeats in Seattle who want others to pay for them. I ride the bus, I am a Conservative. I know we need mass transit. It is good for our business and commerce. I just think people who do not use mass transit should not have to pay to much for it. I think riders like myself should pay.
Actually, it seems that King County is imposing a good bit more than 0.2% sales tax out of the existing 8.8% to subsidize Metro transit. The Seattle Times article said the figure was 0.8%. No matter, since there will be a substantial expansion of revenues from whatever the existing tax is, since employment is supposed to grow by 250,000 in King County in the next 10 years.
And if they claim that there isn’t enough service to meet the existing demand, then why does the farebox only cover 14% of the budget? If demand is really that high, then fares should be increased to reflect demand. And they can put more service on the really busy routes and less service on the underutilized routes.
-I would imagine that the public subsidy in London and Paris is far less than the 90% to 99% subsidy that is typical in the United States. –
God, Richard. You are such an ignorant moron. In case you didn’t notice, they built mass transit systems in Europe over the past hundred years (while we were building “free” highways), so Europeans DIDN’T have to sit in traffic jams to get to work. And, they don’t give a car, a license and insurance to any drooling nutcase in Europe either, like we do here. For $300 bucks, you can pick up a car and a license in this state (and skip the insurance…thanks to the insurance industry that didn’t want to have these inbreds as clients) and drive all over the place. Heck, with the way we go easy on back country rednecks and criminal drivers, you don’t even NEED a license. Look at Aaron Dixon. The “right to drive” is part of the “American Dream,” remember?
-We will have more sales tax revenue, so there is no need to increase the sales tax going to public transportation from 0.2% to 0.3%.-
Richard Pope: get your facts straight. Metro is asking for a .10 increase which would bring their total to .90
You also mis-stated that SIMPLE BASIC FACT on the SP site (which is why they like you so much over there) claiming that Sound Transit takes twice as much sales tax as Metro does. Actually, just the reverse is true. Get a clue.
Nice save, Richard.
-Had we not decided to do the Sound Transit boondoggle, the 0.4% sales tax spent on that project, together with the 0.3% MVET, total about $250 million that could have been spent on pressing human needs. This would have basically been enough to provide universal health care in King County for those not already insured or covered-
Well, Richard, you sure do seem to know how to keep your gadfly credentials updated. You’re so far to the right, you come right back around and start sounding like a raving Nick Licata lefty.
Seems all we’re missing here is old “Big Don” from Milton and his screeds about “LOOT Rail”.
96
Just think of the things we could do with some of our stolen tax dollars if government were run by Democrats instead of the Party of Corruption.
Richard, whenever I read one of your missives my first question is: Who is he whoring for this time? Looks like you’re kissing up to the auto lobby and Mitt Romney today. How’s the consulting biz going?
Gee, as I said before, I hadn’t realized that we are already paying 1.2% sales tax to subsidize transit in King County. 0.8% for King County Metro and 0.4% for Sound Transit. Plus another 0.3% MVET for Sound Transit.
That is a lot of money. Ron Sims says a 0.1% sales tax increase will generate $50 million a year. So the existing 1.2% sales tax already generates $600 million a year.
That is far more than enough money to subsidize health insurance for every adult in King County who is presently not covered by their employer or an existing government program and needs a subsidy to be able to afford their own policy. (Children in lower income families are already covered by Children’s Medicaid, whereas an adult has to have almost no income and no assets to qualify for the regular Medicaid program.)
Why do Democrats keep advocating universal health care in their platforms, but instead spend the money on other things that can’t possibly be as important?
gldy…
trivia for you effete urbanites…do you even know where covington is?
ps,
I keep seeing Sound Transit buses….why did we need them, if now we also need more Metro buses..?
heck, why not launch a 3rd subsidized money losing transit system? Helps pad the payroll w more lawyers, dem politicos..
trivia for you effete urbanites…do you even know where covington is?
Yes (east of Kent). Now show your country hick bonafides and tell me where Elberton is, you pompus dolt.
Ooops. That’s “pompous”.
Nice to see Richard Pope is willing to sacrifice just about any principle for his anti-tax crusade. Universal health? Will wonders never cease?
Yes, Richard. And if we had given every man, woman, and child in Iraq $10,000, it would have been a better way to spend the money than Commander Codpiece did.
Puddybud defends his ignorance thusly: “Anti-immigrant: We want to make the illegal immigrant a misdemeanor. Donkocrats want the status quo, a felony.”
Moron. Sneaking into the country undocumented is currently a civil offense. It is the pandering xenophobes currently in control of the U.S. House of Representatives who want to make it a felony. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that would be the republicon party, right?
-I believe the current operating cost recovery at the farebox on the WSF is around 70%+, with a goal of 80% recovery.-
Boy, the (real) Mark – you’re just as much of a moron as all the rest of your racist right wing troll friends. The ferry system can charge a hefty toll for their riders because THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO CROSS THE WATER. If local transit system jacked up their fares (and ran one bus per hour) NOBODY WOULD RIDE and your precious freeways would be jammed with commuters. Get a grip on reality, man.
-So, how about that $1,000 Light Rail North fare?? –
The (really dumb) Mark: where did you come up with that figure? Out of a hat? There IS NO “Light Rail North.” – and, even if there was – the subsidy wouldn’t be $1k per trip.
If you right wingers got even the basic facts straight, you would probably be agreeing with us libruls. But, then again, that’s what makes you racist & anti-semitic Republican idiots in the first place, right?
I reject rail because
1) What people are looking for from rail (a dedicated mass transit right-of-way) has nothing to do with rail itself.
2) The Seattle area simply doesn’t have the numbers to move to a big downtown that would justify the expense and inflexibility of rail.
3) What’s needed is better information infrastructure, not steel or concrete rails.
I think the plan is great, and I’ll vote for it. I would rather see the tax increase on gas instead of Sales Tax across the board, but I think it’s a good plan. The ideal tax would be an income tax, because millionaires need to pay their share of the costs of infrastructure. If you’re not a millionaire, I don’t want to hear from you.
Yeah, Goldy, this is about money. It’s about taxes. It’s about people pulling their weight, and living off the public dole when they have plenty of money in the bank.
Interesting that only 14% is paid for by fares. Didn’t know that, but suspected it. I don’t see any mention of one thing though. The Downtown Free Ride Zone. Isn’t that paid for by the City of Seattle to Metro so our people can get on any bus and ride it from one end of the zone to the other during the workday? I think if the city wants to increase ridership, they should expand the zone.
One of the callers to KUOW yesterday said that they should raise fares, and that he would be willing to pay more. Fares on public transit is as regressive as the sales tax. It’s part of our infrastructure, and should be paid for by everyone. Is that Socialism? No, it’s an approved expenditure by our elected government. And it’s not going away.
dlaw, you’re a great friend, but I want rail transit from Blaine to Portland, from Tacoma to Port Angeles, and from Seattle to Spokane and the Tri-cities. Sue me.
Liberal @ 112: “The ferry system can charge a hefty toll for their riders because THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO CROSS THE WATER.”
Maybe Vashon and the San Juans, but there are bridges to everywhere else. Sounds like YOU’RE the clueless one. AND, in any case, the WSF has a monopoly on the service.
“If local transit system jacked up their fares (and ran one bus per hour) NOBODY WOULD RIDE and your precious freeways would be jammed with commuters.”
I see… You’re in favor of the government as a predatory monopoly. Monopolize the market (no, the state won’t let you run a private boat to Bremerton) and then jack up the price however much you wish. Why should tax dollars subsidize the operating cost of buses? Why not go for 80% operating cost recovery at the fare box like the ferries? Or are you afraid of losing union jobs and proving that the emperor has no clothes?
“There IS NO ‘Light Rail North.’ – and, even if there was – the subsidy wouldn’t be $1k per trip.”
I stand SLIGHTLY corrected. I meant the Sounder North rail route. Both Link and Sounder are run by SoundTransit.
As for the cost per trip, I was obviously exaggerating.
But since you asked… The actual operating cost per trip varies greatly depending on methodology. Using pure operating cost, SoundTransit admits (in various newspaper accounts) that it costs $30+ per passenger (vs. the $4 max. ticket cost). Using federal formulas that include capital costs, I’ve seen numbers that put the cost per passenger at almost $300 (again, vs. the $4 ticket).
BunnyBoy @ 104: “Just think of the things we could do with some of our stolen tax dollars if government were run by Democrats”
At last you admit that Democrats steal tax dollars.
Here’s a solution to your premise… Give the money back to the taxpayers. It was theirs in the first place. It isn’t a gift to return something you took from someone.
Goldy: “Anyway, their objections really have nothing to do with transit, it’s all about taxes. Figures.”
Yes, it does have to do with taxes. Or, more specifically, taxes being wasted (via subsidy) on a service that even the sponsoring politician refuses to use! farebox recouped more than even half of the operating costs, it would be a different story. Ron Sims and you just want more people on buses so that the roads are clearer for your personal vehicles.
Since you feel governmental use/waste of tax dollars cannot be challenged, I presume we’ll NEVER see or hear you complain about tax money going to businesses or Iraq or anywhere else.
LibrulRedneck spewed about no traffic jams in Europe.
Lets see from personal experience:
1.) London M4 from the west (Heathrow, Reading, Oxford) sometimes an hour or more depending on your start
2.) London M1 from Nottingham Forest and Leeds – Yeah right be on that road at rush hour.
3.) Paris – Outer Ring a mess
4.) Amsterdam – Yeah they have areas where cars are banned
5.) Copenhagen – If you come from the north traffic is not so bad
6.) Frankfurt – Seems to always be building roads. Now I only take a taxi.
There are more but that’s enough fun driving in Europe from Pudster!
It’s funny to watch the trolls pretend that they leave their holes on occasion.
And no, my racist Puddy friend, I said people in Europe don’t HAVE to sit in traffic jams, since they have extensive public transit systems – most based on rail – they can rely on. The only thing that eliminates traffic congestion anywhere in the world is economic downturns. Period. And, despite the fact the US is supposed to be the home of the “middle class dream”, the fact is you have both rich, poor and middle class alike rubbing elbows on the trains in Europe and Asia. Aside from Mayor Blooberg, who rides the train religiously, most rich people in this country (Bush’s ‘have-more’ base) do what they can to stay away from the unwashed (and dwindling) middle class masses. And a Lexus with dark tinted windows does a fine job of that.
I was in Ireland not to long ago, 2003, And there were traffic jams there.
-Maybe Vashon and the San Juans, but there are bridges to everywhere else. Sounds like YOU’RE the clueless one. AND, in any case, the WSF has a monopoly on the service.-
(The Real) Mark: could you really be this dumb? It’s like shooting fish in a barrel with you.
First off, take a look at this map. http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferrie.....oute-maps/ Are you saying the people on Bainbridge Island would rather drive 2 1/2 hours around the Kitsap Penninsula to get to their job on the other side of the sound to avoid an unsubsidized ferry fare? Would people who live on South Whidbey travel an extra hour and a half north to Anacortes to come back down to Everett or Seattle? No – they wouldn’t, which was my point. The next time you decide to call somebody “clueless” you may wish to arm yourself with at least a slightly believable argument. The one you used was a joke, worthy of a 13 year old kid. Maybe that’s who I’m wasting my time with here?
They tried private service – and it folded. One of the reasons it folded is because the fare was too high, and people crowded on to those hated subsidized ferries, despite the inconvenience. Face it: your Libertarian dream of handing over what’s left in public ownership is laughable. Keep banging your head against the wall on it, though. It’s fun to watch, TRM.
You would have to be a real ignorant Libertarian (the Scientology of political parties) nutbag to believe only transit is subsidized. TRM – take a look at the price tag on I-405. If you support selling every major highway and arterial in the country, we can consider your comments to be intellectually honest. And, if there was a true monopoly on transit, the government wouldn’t allow those taxi cabs, vanpools, or airport buses, would they?
-Using federal formulas that include capital costs, I’ve seen numbers that put the cost per passenger at almost $300 (again, vs. the $4 ticket). –
Really? Which formula was that? Did it come in a cracker jack box, TRM?
-The Seattle area simply doesn’t have the numbers to move to a big downtown that would justify the expense and inflexibility of rail.-
Right, dlaw. That’s what the opponents of the first NY subway system said 100 years ago. And we all know how that turned out. In fact, that’s what the critics of ALL rail systems always say (including BART and DC’s METRO). And, aside from one or two exceptions, all those rail systems – while expensive – have proven to be tremendously successful. Better luck next time.
Liberal @ 121:
YOU said @ 115 that there was “NO OTHER WAY TO CROSS THE WATER.” I was simply correcting your blatant error. Perhaps you’ve been holding that fish-shootin’ shotgun backwards.
As for the rest of your blather… Are you denying that the ferry system is a monopoly — predatory or otherwise?
And, no, you CANNOT just set up private ferry service if you feel like it — especially if it competes with the state. The WUTC is required to take into account if a private firm would have any impact on the WSF when deciding to approve or deny.
The cost formula is from the Federal Transit Administration. But that is beside the point. Ignore the $300 & the FTA. Even the $30+ per passenger that SoundTransit ADMITS (in various major media) is a MASSIVE subsidy vs. the $4 maximum ticket price.
You argue that the ferry system has the right to charge through the nose for the convenience of ferry service and you imply that 80% recovery at the farebox is proper for WSF, while buses and other public transportation should be heavily subsidized. Where is your logic? Or should I even expect any? The folks in Everett have plenty of options besides Sounder. People downtown have plenty of options besides the bus. Why should I subsidize THEIR convenience (no parking costs, HOV lanes, etc.)?
The problem with LibrulDeadNeck is he assumes a lot. Like his call of me being a racist. Racism is a trait of the white man, who in his zeal to subjugate the other races, created reverse hatred of him in the other races! Look in the mirror LibrulDeadNeck and tell me what policy helps my people in the inner city. YOU WILL NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!. Where is your gravitas, LibrulDeadNeck? I know why. To answer it truthfully, you will admit the Great Society has destroyed the inner city black family fabric. These are the racist policies of your donkocratic moonbat party.
Europeans drive their cars like Americans because they want to. Sure they can take mass transit if they want to but most DON’T! I was in London this past January. They have a great tube system and train system, yet many people drive their cars to work! Why, well two days I was there they had train breakdowns from the south. Another day a tube train died in the tube. People have to get to work on time.
Now his other complaint over $300 cars and no insurance. This state does not force insurance companies to send in cancellations to them like New Your or Pennsylvania. Why won’t your librul donko WA Legislature fix that? When we moved here in the early 90s, my insurance went up 20%. I asked why and they said uninsured driver coverage. In NYS & PA, when you registered your car with the DMV you had to display a valid insurance card. You also received a card from the DMV stating the rules of insruance coverage. If you cancelled your insurance after registering the car, you received an immediate notice from DMV saying your registration was revoked in 10 days unless you reinstated your insurance. Next, the police were given uninsured driver rap sheets to nail them if caught!
So LibrulDeadNeck complain to your donks and have them change the law.
OOps New York or Pennsylvania.