After its infamously failed effort to spend billions of dollars building five nuclear power plants during the 1970’s — at a time when Washington state was awash in cheap hydro-power — the “Washington Public Power Supply System”, now renamed Energy Northwest, is back proposing another mega-project…” a roughly $1 billion 600-megawatt Western Washington power plant” that would burn coal and petroleum coke.
The emphasis on the word “roughly” is mine, and considering WPPSS history, it’s well deserved. The cost of WPPSS nuclear folly ballooned many times over original projections before it was shut down by voter initiative in the 1980’s, and was forced to default on $2.25 billion in bonds. So despite a recent record of apparently sound management, the financial underpinnings of this project must be closely scrutinized.
But I’m also disturbed by Energy Northwest’s willingness to embrace coal, at a time we need to be investing more heavily in renewable energy resources like wind. I’m not qualified to prejudge the proposed plant’s new technology, but there seems no dispute that without sequestration, carbon emissions would be twice that of a traditional natural gas powered plant. Considering the growing impact of global warming, wouldn’t it make better sense to invest “roughly” $1 billion in a proven, carbon-free technology like wind power, rather than testing a new technology for burning coal and oil refinery waste?
Energy Northwest deserves some credit for its financial turn-around, and for investing in some green technologies, but a lot of questions remain… not the least of which concern the power consumption projections on which it is justifying the need for this new mega-plant. And a lot of questions need to be answered before we break ground on a new coal-fired powered plant in Western Washington.
Considering the growing impact of global warming, wouldn’t it make better sense to invest “roughly” $1 billion in a proven, carbon-free technology like wind power, rather than testing a new technology for burning coal and oil refinery waste?
Actually it does make sense. But are you willing to confront the environmentalists regarding the deaths of endangered species because of the blades of the windmills?
Not to worry about global warming or other human follies, Goldy. Mother Nature will fix everything. A massive die-off of the human species will cure the planet’s ills, whether deliberate (WMDs) or inadvertent (ecosystem collapse). Given the capacity of cute fluffy bunnies for reproduction, I’m confident my progeny will flourish in the post-human epoch.
You know this “global warming” is BS with no solid evidence. The earth has cycled ever since time began. It has heated, cooled and heated again. Just something as simple as the recent hurricane should serve as an example of how little control we have over the earth. If man ever can control the climate, he will fuck that up as well (kind of like shooting the cyotes to be up to our ears in jackrabbits like wi did in Arizona). If this world is “warming” it is because of the natural cycle of things and we (animals and humans alike) will adapt…or we wont, simple as that!
By the way, seeding a puny cloud for rain doesnt count as controling the earth to me so dont try that one.
Cheesy Chuckie is full of shit, as usual. Of course, I’d be disappointed by anything less. Chuck, whatever you do, don’t show your face at any scientific gathering or on any university campus, unless you’re a glutton for ridicule.
Goldy: “renewable energy resources like wind”
pbj @ 1 brings up the excellent point re: the animals. You wouldn’t want to upset the LEFT WING “animals are more important that people” crowd, would you?
But I’m more concerned with your personal hero, Teddy Kennedy, who opposes wind farms. See:
http://www.capecodonline.com/s.....tands8.htm
But, then again, it might be because it would be in HIS backyard instead of that of a likely-Red-State farmer. Or, if you read between the lines, it might be because there isn’t enough federal meddling to allow him to line his pockets or use it as a political pawn.
Mark@6,
Great point. When liberals start backing their rhetoric with action, then we can take them seriously. But when rich liberals like Kerry and Kennedy try to tell us how they are for the “working man” all the while sipping martinis in plush million dollar manisons – the hypocrisy can be cut with a knife. And then we have Teddy Kennedy who opposes wind farms. Why don’t we hear a datribe from Goldy about Teddy opposing renewable energy?
Near Palm Desert in California they have littered the valley for miles with wind generators. The huge and ugly machines have turned the place into an unattractive artificial turbinescape that sprawls forever. After years and years and dollars and dollars for the hundreds and hundreds of these things all over the countryside they are only generating enough energy to power the local hospital full time during an emergency outage.
At the same time, environmentalists fight the construction of homes along the hills because of “ridgeline visual sensitivity”.
Mark @ 6
Holy shit! If our goal is to reduce human-induced animal mortality, let’s just shut down the highways and quit using pesticides. We could “save the birds” by removing power transmission lines, removing guy cables on TV towers, getting rid of airplanes and jets, and, of course, making it illegal for cats to go outside of the house. Better yet, let’s all move to NYC and restore the zillions of acres of lost habitat that have truely reduced animal populations of all types!
Seriously, wind turbines will not do squat to diminish bird populations compared to what we are already doing.
Baynative @ 8
“The huge and ugly machines have turned the place into an unattractive artificial turbinescape that sprawls forever.”
Have you ever traveled in Germany or Denmark? They have wind generators all over the countryside. In my opinion, they are much more attractive than power transmission towers, telephone poles, billboards, highway interchanges, railroad structures, high-rise condos, and smokestacks. In fact, I find the generators to have a mysterious and graceful quality about them.
Have you ever traveled in Germany or Denmark? They have wind generators all over the countryside. In my opinion, they are much more attractive than power transmission towers, telephone poles, billboards, highway interchanges, railroad structures, high-rise condos, and smokestacks. In fact, I find the generators to have a mysterious and graceful quality about them.
No I haven’t seen them there. But if you go to Richland Washington area and travel along the snake river, you can see our very own windmill farms. They are kind of neat to look at.
Now DJ – pleas tell us how YOU are going to quell the rantings about golden eagle being killed by windmills for the enviro-terrorist wing of the Democrat party?
dj@9,
Seriously, wind turbines will not do squat to diminish bird populations compared to what we are already doing.
Shouldnt you be telling this to the enviros in YOUR OWN party DJ?
Oh my a proposal for another fossil fuel electricity plant! Are these the same people that run the Centralia plant?
I wonder if the BIAW is involved somehow. If you put wind turbines on farmland it makes it much harder to pave it over with crackerbox houses, Walmart Super Centers and strip malls.
And I thought wind turbines were pretty popular with farmers – they do get a steady stream of revenue from them after all – like those farmers who own the land for the Stateline Wind Farm – isn’t that the largest wind farm in the world right now?
Certainly the first generation wind farms like at Altamont Pass in CA didn’t leave much to be desired but we’ve learned a lot since then. Bird kill is studied to death before siting. Wind is the fastest growing renewable so nimbyism isn’t really too much of a problem right now. Nimby’s exist across the political spectrum. What a profound discovery!
And fellow Republicans this old republican guy is touting a terrific new solar technology. Who needs dirty coal? Get on board!
pbj @ 12
“Shouldnt you be telling this to the enviros in YOUR OWN party?”
I’m unaffiliated and always have been (even in states with party registration).
But, more to the point, this would not seem to be a “party line” type issue. I supect there are supporters and detractors for wind power among all brands of politicians.
pbj @ 11
“Now DJ – pleas tell us how YOU are going to quell the rantings about golden eagle being killed by windmills for the enviro-terrorist wing of the Democrat party?”
If they ask me (or if I take it upon myself to tell them), I’ll put it into the same perspective I just mentioned, and provide references to proper scientific studies of the impact of wind generators on wildlife.
John@13,
How it must eat at your sould to say something good about a guy named Nixon!
I think he has a great idea. Solar still needs more development to make a significant contribution, but for a measly $22 million we could put in a few of those solar circles he talks about. Heck, with the $100 million + wasted already on the monorail boondoggle, we could have had 5 of those installed and at least have something to show for the money.
DJ –
And what would you tell Ted Kennedy who fought against them in his back yard?
pbj @ 17
“And what would you tell Ted Kennedy who fought against them in his back yard?”
Huh? I would tell him I disagree with him.
Why was that not obvious to you before I answered your question? Did you read my post @ 14?
pbj @ 16
“How it must eat at your sould to say something good about a guy named Nixon!
Hell, that’s no problem. I recently posted a comment saying “George Bush is making Richard Nixon look real good!”
But, back on topic. I find it refreshing (but not completely surprising) that a wingnut is supportive of alternative energy.
@ 16
Not really. When people make the right choices that benefit everyone in no-brainer way, I don’t care what their politics are.
As this country sinks deeper and deeper into the sinkhole caused by running gargantuan budget and trade deficits, every bit of wasted investment capital becomes that much more precious. On that score I can’t argue too much with you about monorail – even though I still hope it gets built. :)
I find it refreshing (but not completely surprising) that a wingnut is supportive of alternative energy.
That what I was thinking about you!
Speaking of energy,how about that new “energy efficient” city hall? LOL!
@ 22
It’s always a mistake IMO to forget about energy efficiency in any design. And it’s an easy mistake to make in this technological society that came about when we figured out how to exploit dirt cheap scads of fossil fuels and then assumed they would go on forever.
It’s always a mistake IMO to forget about energy efficiency in any design. And it’s an easy mistake to make in this technological society that came about when we figured out how to exploit dirt cheap scads of fossil fuels and then assumed they would go on forever.
What a bunch of gobblygook! Can’t you just admit that you liberals got sold a bill of goods? The whole POINT of the city hall design was to be energy efficient. It has proven to be nothing of the sort. In fact, it takes MORE energy than the old building that was LARGER in size!!! It was in the liberal Seattle papers that you read – even they cannot deny that!
pbj @ 24
I think we should file an initiative to repeal the building. :)
windfarms have not generated enough power to make them feasable. and as for the “ugly transmission lines” dj, they would still be there. what? you think that just because they are using wind generators they still don’t need a way to disperse the electricity?
there is a down side to almost everything. in the case of wind “farms” they have produced significant deaths of raptors. that is not a good thing at all.
for all of you “washington environmentalists”…and i put it in quotes because it is SUCH a joke….why doesn’t seattle turn off all the lights? i have never seen a city [in this country] that wastes power on the magnitude of seattle.every high rise at three in the morning has all the lights on.
literally it gives whole new meaning to the phrase “the lights are on and no one is home”
there are no real environmentalists in this state….just alot of big talkers.
@ 24
Well if EE was a design goal of the project then either the design failed or the goal was compromised in the change orders. Not the first time it’s happened in any
Laugh all you want if it makes you feel better.
oops I meant “happened in any city of any political stripe.”
christmasghost @ 26
“….and as for the “ugly transmission lines” dj, they would still be there. what? you think that just because they are using wind generators they still don’t need a way to disperse the electricity?”
Holy shit, are you a moron, I never said or implied anything about transmission line going away (or telephone poles, or billboards, or highway interchanges, or railroad structures, or high-rise condos, or even smokestacks). Please, try to read people’s posts more carefully!
“there is a down side to almost everything. in the case of wind “farms” they have produced significant deaths of raptors. that is not a good thing at all.”
That was the finding of one study. Almost all other studies find minor numbers of dead bird kills. The bird kill rate from wind generation is trivial compared to other human-induced causes.
I had a friend at EWU that was from Kennewick, and he never knew that WNP-2, also known as Columbia Generating Station was on-line. CGS is a GE Boiling Water Reactor, while two other companies were to build the 4 other Reactors, of a Pressurized Water Type. SInce 1984, it has been a great asset to the Northwest, especially during droughts, unless it is down for refueling, but it just returned to full-power after being down for 35 days during it’s last refueling and maintenance outage. Starting in 2001, they went to 2-year refueling cycle instead of 1 year. In 2001, ENW was considering re-start of construction on WNP-1 at Hanford, 67% complete, but the power market in California tanked, and the BPA said they would not buy any more nuclear power, only alternative to Hydro was wind. Nuclear is a great source of Base Load, recycle the fuel, could even be sustainable. I have read up on the topic, I love the Canadian Designs better. The latest versions can directly use spent fuel from our BWR/PWRs, optimizing spent fuel supply.
I think ENW is doing the right thing continuing to invest in alternatives, such as Wind Power, as that is their mandate. They have the Wind Farm at Nine Canyon, which is continually being expanded, with more turbines, and still have more land to lease from the farmers their. That is a win-win situation for everybody. The farmers make more money, the turbine farm has a small staff to keep an eye on equipment(providing jobs). They used to have a webcam and provide temperature updates at Nine Canyon, and still do the latter. At 9MPH they jenerate a few Megawatts, at 50MPH, they generate none, as the turbines shut down for their own safety. WNP-2 and it’s 1200MW run at 100% most of the time.
What happened to seattle energy guru Heidi Wills; wasn’t she your green/energy savant for a while.
Oh yeah, she’s in the paper on strippergate and Collurcio (sp?)….
Laughing out loud…
dj@25,
I think we should file an initiative to repeal the building.
That is if they don’t outlaw the intiative process in the next session!
I fired her in 2003. I voted against 3 of the City Councilmembers up for re-election that year, all 3 of those lost their jobs. Wills for constantly being on the other side of the Voters when it came to the Monorail. Set-aside I-41, tried to confuse the voters by putting an alternative to I-53 that sounded so vague, but messing up Seattle City Light, that used to be the most unpardonable act a Seattle Politician could do, and that last reason is why I fired her.
pbj @ 32
“That is if they don’t outlaw the intiative process in the next session!”
We can assist by launching an initiative to eliminate initiatives!
dj@34,
We can assist by launching an initiative to eliminate initiatives!
Don’t bother. Fraudoire and her sycophants will eliminate in the next meeting of the nazi legislature.
dj….as usual you are talking not thinking. the raptor deaths were significant and as usual you just don’t get it. it’s not an “either or thing”. are you complete idiots up here going to suddenly stop your love affair with pesticides [nozzle-heads] if they put up wind farms?
oh, hell no. so it’s a COMPOUNDING threat. i realize after reading your post you may not be able to comprehend that whole concept…..but, hey, give it a try. thinking is a GOOD THING.
right on the sound and you hire companies to come in with water trucks [but they aren’t full of water] and giant hoses and you spray everything in sight. my neighbors do this three times a year. they even sprayed their kerry sign[i thought it was a sign that they recognized him as vermin…but no, they are just liberal idiots] and then they were complaining to me about how polluted the sound is.
god……too dumb to be driving…and they are not alone.
C@36,
Don’t point out their hypocrisy or their heads will explode and you will get the f-bomb. Why is it that when they are debating, liberls always have their minds on carnal acts?
Here is a good article about wind addressing bird kill from an energy investment banker.
The Altamont Pass in CA is worst offender in this regard – not well thought out.
Christmasghost @ 36
What the fuck* are you babbling about?????
Your ranting @ 36 is unintelligible. Calm down. . . take a deep breath.
“the raptor deaths were significant and as usual you just don’t get it.
I do, indeed, “get it” as should be evident from my stating that “[t]hat was the finding of one study” in my previous post to you. There was one study that found an alarming rate of raptor deaths; almost all studies since then have not been able to replicate those findings. Some scientists have attributed the excess raptor deaths in that one study to the specific circumstances involved, not as a general characteristic of wind generator-ecosystem interactions. Of course, if you know of some additional studies, please feel free to cite them. . . .
“so it’s a COMPOUNDING threat.”
Technically you are wrong—compounding is an exponential process. Adding wind generators would be an additive effect on bird kills (as I suggested in my last post to you) and the effect would be relatively minor compared to other human-induced causes.
* Special thanks to pbj @ 37 for the wording idea!
you know goldy — I think you’re going to have to do something about your comments section. there used to be some signal here, but it’s largely disappearing in the noise.
I’m a leftie (a card carrying member of the ACLU, move on, now, pfaw, human rights campaign, eff, freedom to read, yeah, probably some more leftie organizations that I don’t remember now).
But, I think that “Considering the growing impact of global warming, wouldn’t it make better sense to invest “roughly” $1 billion in a proven, carbon-free technology like wind power, rather than testing a new technology for burning coal and oil refinery waste?” is unresearched, and shallow, not up to your usual standards.
Wind power is carbon-free, but it does have other environmental costs. Once we acknowledge that all energy sources have environmental costs, the question becomes technical: are the environmental costs of “integrated coal gassification” less or greater than the costs of wind power (or solar power), per energy unit? I don’t know the answer, and I know that some of those who advocate such discussions really don’t want to know the answer, but ask the question to muddy the debate. But, it is a real, technical question, and should be researched, and not handily dismissed.
bj-too
Windmills makes me think of Don Quixote.
Windmills make me think of the left tilting at windmills in regards to Karl Rove.
dj @14
I’m unaffiliated and always have been (even in states with party registration).
So, how many states are you registered in? :)
pbj @ 7, 11
Let’s see, in 2 posts, pbj invokes the right wing propaganda lines about “rich liberals in mansions” and “the enviro-terrorist wing of the Democratic Party.” Who writes your lines for you, Karl Rove or Ann Coulter? You are not only a fucking liar, you are a pea brain incapable of an original thought.
If I did what pbj does, I would be portraying the Republican Party as a bunch of skinhead white supremacists in bedsheets lynching blacks …
Comment on 24
How is city hall a “liberal” issue? Isn’t it a “design” or “architectural” or “engineering” issue? It’s amazing how adept pbj, faithful shill of the right wing propaganda machine, is at bandying around the term “liberal.” Liberalism works, asshole. Liberalism gave America decades of unprecedented prosperity, personal rights, and individual economic security. The deconstruction of FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society by the right wing fascists who favor wealth concentration and are bringing misery to millions of Americans, starting with the 45 million without health insurance (and who now also are denied access to the bankruptcy courts for their medical debts, thanks to Bush and the Rethuglican Congress). Their misery is soon to be augmented by the pending poverty of millions more who will be cheated out of their pensions by the Republican program of allowing lying, dishonesty, greedy corporate leaders to use the bankruptcy courts to welsh on their pension obligations. Pbj is firmly in the camp of right wing nutism, the worst plague to hit the country since the flu pandemic of 1918.
Comment on 25
I think we should file an initiative to repeal pbj. Or at least return him to his mother for retraining.
Reply to 26
The reason office towers have their (flourescent) lights on at 3 AM is because the lights heat the building. Bet you didn’t know that, huh?
Marks @ 43
“So, how many states are you registered in?”
D’oh!
Alas, only one (for the moment).
I can always count on you for a clever jab from the right. Hey, will you be passing through this summer? I believe I still owe you a beer.
Roger doesn’t know it either; bldgs don’t want to add heat in summer; lights are left on by the janitors
Rabbit,
Seriously, you need to chill on this hate talk.
As for the issue, I thinbk both positions are pretty irresponsible.
Clearly, Investing in Green/Clean Power sources is the path to a the future, but wind just does not provide enough power for the investment.
Now, I’ll provide Rabbit Answer, “You’re a fucking Liar, arrruuggghhh, my wife is gonna live like a queen in a state run riterment facility after I leave her widowed and penniless”.
Having said that, what are good alternatives to the two power sources mentioned?
Conservative @ 41
Of course windmills make you think of Don Quixote! What else can we expect of a conservative whose thought process is stuck in the 18th century?
Wrong Again @ 50
Righton, you ignorant fuck, why don’t you call Martin Selig and ask him why the lights stay on all night in his buildings? In the case of Selig, a miser justly famous for pinching pennies (and not paying his property taxes or City Light bills on time), if the lights were on because of careless janitors, those janitors would have been fired years ago. Righton, you are one of the trolls who spouts mindless ignorance and therefore contributes nothing to this board.
Reply to 51
The reason I call you an “ignorant fuck” is because you are an ignorant fuck.
prr @ 51
Denmark currently meets 21% of their electricity needs via wind power. That seems like a non-trivial chunk ‘o the grid.
Here is an non-technical article by a local engineer discussing the Denmark model for the Pacific NW: http://www.sparling.com/news/a.....0power.pdf
I agree with you, prr, that one limitation is the time it would take to develop the capacity to squeeze 20% out of wind for our electrical needs.
John @38
Probably the only article from Kos I have read with a modicum of interest.
Well noted is the death of birds from building windows. Unfortunately, there is no breakdown of avian mortality by bird size (small vs. large) under any circumstance. I would have been interested in results based on that. Anyway, thanks for the link…
Unfortunately, the planet still has PLENTY of fossil fuels — a 500 year supply of coal (much of which is located in the U.S.), and trillions of barrels of oil in tar sands and oil shale (most of which is located in Canada, the U.S., and Venezuela). And let’s not forget that a large part of humanity still burns firewood for basic cooking and heating. Wood smoke, anyone?
I wonder how many of you know that the Columbia River dams were NOT built to generate electricity. They were built for 2 reasons: To create construction jobs during the Depression, and to provide irrigation water for farmers. Until World War 2 came along, their generating capacity was large unused — BPA couldn’t give away the power. The existence of the dams was a fortuitous circumstance of the first magnitude, because when the war came, the U.S. had an existing and unused electricity production capacity large enough to power the plants that produced the aluminum and aircraft essential for the war effort, with enough juice left over to power the Hanford plutonium factories that produced the Nagasaki bomb and warheads for the Cold War.
I would guess that many of you also think the dams were responsible for the decline in NW salmon runs. This, also, is untrue. Most of the damage to the runs occurred before the first dam was built. Salmon are a resilient, hardy fish that have survived despite the dams. The real destruction to the fish came about in the 1800s as a result of settlers clearing logjams from the low elevation rivers to improve navigation, draining lowland wetlands to convert them to farmland, and commercial overfishing. By 1900, 98% of the Northwest’s original salmon reproduction habitat had been destroyed. The construction of dams that blocked the upper Columbia and Snake rivers obviously didn’t improve the situation for the fish, but the lower dams didn’t wipe out the salmon, either. Even if all of our electricity needs were met by new technologies, the dams wouldn’t be torn down because their original purpose of irrigation and flood control would still exist. However, dams are not eternal, they have a limited useful lifespan of typically 100 to 150 years before sendimentation and other factors renders them useless, and perhaps our great-grandchildren will live to see a free-flowing Columbia-Snake River again.
By the way, salmon and their evolutionary precursers have inhabited this region for about 40 million years, and the Columbia River and the rest of Washington’s modern landscape has existed since the recession of the last glacial ice sheet about 16,000 years ago.
dj @49
I thought I owed you one. Anyway, I need to gripe at my corporate asshole boss (is that the proper way you on the left say it?) about the few vacation days I get every year. I’ll let you know…
Reply@46,
How is city hall a “liberal” issue? Isn’t it a “design” or “architectural” or “engineering” issue?
It is a liberal issue because liberal idiots have been running Seattle since caveman days. They are easily bamboozled when they spend the public’s money. They spend it with abandon with no oversight as to if it is being effectively spent. The city hall is just another example of this.
Roger@44,
Let’s see, in 2 posts, pbj invokes the right wing propaganda lines about “rich liberals in mansions” and “the enviro-terrorist wing of the Democratic Party.” Who writes your lines for you, Karl Rove or Ann Coulter? You are not only a fucking liar, you are a pea brain incapable of an original thought.
Do you have anything to say other than talking about you fecal matter or carnal acts?
Rabbit @ 54,
I have to say, you are just a sad old man.
I really feel sorry for you.
After toiling away with a government job for YEARS, you retire without enough cash to get by or support your family as a man should and the only direction you have in life is to sit and peck away hate on of all places, Goldy’s Blog, supporting the same system that has made you a victim.
Seriously man, take up a hobby, go birdwatching, sailing (oaky maybe you cannot afford that), go canoeing or Sea Kayaing….something.
Go out, get some fresh air and some excercise.
It will do you more good than vegetating in front of your computer or meeting up with some of the rodents on this board for a beer at a friggin dive bar, to spew more hate.
I know Cynical brought up that this is a sick form of entertainment for many, (myself included) but seriously, this seems to be some form of addiction for you.
As for myself, I’ve had enough for a while. I’m going for a run and then going sailing tonight and then I am going to take a break from the insanity that is Horsesass for a while. I’ll catch up with this distraction when before the next election.
Cynical, keep up the good work,
Goldy, Rabbit, Donnageddon, get a life.
pbj @ 60 said
“It is a liberal issue because liberal idiots have been running Seattle since caveman days.”
Yeah, I remember the first Seattle City Cave. Man, was that sucker drafty. And, you talk about poor energy efficiency? We had to import Irish peat by the canoe-full just to keep our clubs and spears dry. It was dark and gloomy, too, at least until the art tax passed and we got us some some cave-art….
One question I have about bird mortality is this: Does it matter? In nature, the population of a species grows until it has colonized all suitable habitat and reached the limits of what the available food supply can support. Some species reproduce slowly and need a long time to fill their environmental niche (or refill it if their population has been decimated), e.g. whales. Other species, however, are capable of reproducing so rapidly that, as a practical matter, even high mortality does not reduce species population — in other words, no matter how many of them you kill, there will always be as many as the ecosystem can system — e.g. mosquitoes, raccoons, and of course (ahem) cute fluffy bunny rabbits.
So what’s the deal with birds? I have observed that Canada geese tend to have large litters (or whatever you call ’em) and hunters can’t kill geese fast enough to keep their population from exploding. Certainly, we can kill off songbird populations with WMDs (a.k.a. pesticides), but wind farms and office building windows?
I would guess it varies by species. The main limitation on raptor populations is food supply, not habitat. It seems we will have as many eagles as there are dead salmon carcasses in our streams to feed them. They are not short of trees to nest in. Take away the dead fish, you have no eagles. We don’t have a lot of eagles, because we don’t have a lot of fish carcasses in our rivers anymore.
Other birds? Guess it depends on the species, where they are in the food chain, and what they feed on. But I would guess that many species of birds would not suffer a population decline by reason of wind farms no matter how many turbines you built.
RR @ 52
“Of course windmills make you think of Don Quixote! What else can we expect of a conservative whose thought process is stuck in the 18th century?”
If you are referring to the Cervantes novel, I think you mean the 17th century.
My mindset was more of a reference to the musical “The Man of La Mancha”, dreaming the impossible dream of wind power replacing fossil fuels. Solar seems to have more potential of doing that, but I think that’s still a while in the future. I’ll spare singing the tune for you, it would be a painful experience for everyone.
You know, this power thing is going to be interesting if your drinking pal, Rep Ed Murray, tries to end run the will of the people on the Gas Tax and allow KingCo to keep all of it’s Gas Tax. Where does King Co. get most of it’s power from?? I would have to guess that these little redneck County’s you LEFTIST PINHEADS so freely trash may just do whatever it takes to surcharge the power Seattle sucks away or maybe stop it all together. That would slow the economic engine down a tad wouldn’t it??
If that were to happen, you LEFTIST PINHEADS would be begging for a nuke plant anywhere in KingCo. Funny how dependency works both ways.
Let the LEFTIST PINHEADS pay to beautify their own waterfront by destroying the perfectly ok Alaskan Way Viaduct and digging your own fucking tunnel at your own fucking RISK! Paul Allen and his cronies will be disappointed but…….
Roger @ 57
You are correct. Those of us who live here and really look at the science understand this about the dams. As for the wind power, more of it. Some don’t like the WM’s but they are COOL. But this new idea from ENW is backwards. They should finish #2 by planning it out with projections on future needs and technology advancements. Might require a retrofit but the major infrastructure is there…. I drove past it this morning.
I met prr on gay.com
He makes a great subservient, likes to gobble down nuts faster than a squirrel. Must have been in the Navy or something.
Hey, that internship job is yours, buddy.
Love and kisses,
The Mayor
Roger Rabbit@5
http://www.junkscience.com/news/robinson.htm
Depends on which scietific gathering or university you go to I suppose….
Mayor J. West @68
Must have been in the Navy or something.
Has the Navy actually gone to SoftSoap in the showers since I got out (you know, takes longer to pick up)? I knew of some homosexuals while I was in, but there was never any effort to advance the agenda…
Then again, The Village People did wonders for the image…
66
In the spirit of your ad hominem remarks, sir, I would like to point out a few finer points of the English language, as follows:
“to keep all of it’s Gas Tax”
it’s = it is; its = possessive (this is known as the genitive case)
“Gas Tax” when speaking in generic sense, this need not be capitalized
“these little redneck County’s”
Plurals in English seldom require apostrophes, and this is no exception: counties. You see, the “y” of the singular converts to “ie” to create the plural form.
I doubt these were typing errors, although you may always opt for the Irish apology: “excuse spellin this is a divel of a pen” (sic). At least that way you might be amusing.
HRH–
Do you spend most of your pathetic life trying to pick flyshit outta pepper???
I thought so.
OMG, Mr. Cynical that was too funny…
Re: another good source of renewable, alternative energy.
I’ve been reading a lot about a process being researched in Switzerland combining solar energy, Zinc Oxide and carbon. You could cheaply distribute these plants in a lot places and they would provide electricity for a community as well as fuel for personal transport. There is a carbon dioxide problem at the end but it is hugely less than that of the coal-fired plant mentioned in Goldy’s post. The bottom line is that this process delivers three times the amount of energy from a ton of carbon that we get now.
A good analysis with further links is here.
This process is renewable and the carbon source can come from anything from coal to municipal waste. The blogger above got so excited about it, he sketched out a process that would actually be carbon negative. See the blog for further details.
Reply to 65
“I’ll spare singing the tune for you, it would be a painful experience for everyone.”
Thanks so much! If only all conservatives were as considerate as you.
Reply to 61
Apparently you’re too stupid to figure out what I said, namely, that your description of liberals as rich people who live in mansions and your attempt to associate Democrats with eco-terrorists are lies concocted by right wing propagandists to smear liberals and Democrats. The fact you repeat these lies makes you a liar, pbj. You’re lower than pond scum. You’re on the same level as Joseph Goebbels. You’re a liar and a hatemonger, you’re a political smut peddler. Fuck you. Fuck the horse you rode in on, too. God is saving an especially hot room in Hell for low-life lying scumbags like you.
prr @ 62
No thanks, I’ve decided to devote what remains of my life to calling bullshitters on their bullshit, and you are a bullshitter, prr. You’re also an America-hating piece of shit.
Comment on 63
The amazing thing is that despite the encroachments of modern civilization, our Caveman population has survived. Cynical, pbj, prr, All Tools, ConservativeFirst, et al. …
I thought this was a thread about a bad idea – this plant – not about a so-so idea, wind power…
First, follow thwe money, as “doper” Rush Limbaugh would say. Why the Tri-Cities?
I know a bit about this. Generally, plants that consume bulk resources – that is, the ones that want to be competitive – are in-situ. Your margin can disappear mighty fast trucking fuel.
So this thing runs on??? Coke from refineries? Anacortes? Other? And what coal? The only deposits in Washington big enough for in-situ are being mined by Trans Alta at Tono near Centralia.
So why the Tri-Cities? Is there a vested interest? Or is any middle of nowhere good enough?
And those questions are just for starters. There are more holes in this than a gillnet modified by Greenpeace.
WHOOPS again…
John @74
I am surprised that Tantalum is not considered, mostly because I have reserves of the stuff…Can you put in a word to your corporate whores to consider Tantalum?…
@ 80
If the substance is common enough and the chemistry is right feel free to submit the process you have in mind to corporate whores of your own acquaintance.
And now, a word for Tantalum…
tantalum.
CAS: 7440-25-7.
Ta.
Element of atomic number 73 in group VB of the periodic table, aw 180.9479, valences of 2, 3, 5; no stable isotopes.
Properties: (1) Black powder. (2) Steel-blue-colored metal when unpolished, nearly a platinum-white color when polished. D (1) 14.491, (2) 16.6 (worked metal), mp 2996C, bp 5425C, tensile strength of drawn wire may be as high as 130,000 psi, refr index 2.05, expansion coefficient 8 × 10+6 over range 20–1500C. Electrical resistance 13.6 microhm-cm (0C), 32.0 (500C). Soluble in fused alkalies; insoluble in acids except hydrofluoric and fuming sulfuric acids.
Occurrence: Canada, Thailand, Malaysia, Brazil.
Derivation: From tantalum potassium fluoride by heating in an electric furnace, by sodium reduction, or by fused salt electrolysis. The powdered metal is converted to a massive metal by sintering in a vacuum. Foot-long crystals can be grown by arc fusion.
Corrosion resistance: 99.5% pure tantalum is resistant to all concentrations of hot and cold sulfuric acid (except concentrated boiling), hydrochloric acid, nitric and acetic acids, hot and cold dilute sodium hydroxide, all dilutions of hot and cold ammonium hydroxide, mine and seawaters, moist sulfurous atmospheres, aqueous solutions of chlorine.
Grade: Powder 99.5% pure, sheet, rods, wire, ultrapure, single crystals.
Hazard: Dust or powder may be flammable. Toxic by inhalation. TLV: 5 mg/m3.
Use: Capacitors, chemical equipment, dental and surgical instruments, rectifiers, vacuum tubes, furnace components, high-speed tools, catalyst, getter alloys, sutures and body implants, electronic circuitry, thin-film components.
Roger, you & pbj are already in hell, and there is no god… But it’s probably a good thing you & so many others believe otherwise. If you didn’t, people would be offing each other on every other streetcorner.
After all, nobody ever kills for god, right?
Comment on 63
The amazing thing is that despite the encroachments of modern civilization, our Caveman population has survived. Cynical, pbj, prr, All Tools, ConservativeFirst, et al. …
Speaking of which I heard King County had it first election back in the “Cave Days”. There was one problem though, numbers were not invented yet. The more things change the more things stay the same
dj@63,
Yeah, I remember the first Seattle City Cave. Man, was that sucker drafty. And, you talk about poor energy efficiency? We had to import Irish peat by the canoe-full just to keep our clubs and spears dry. It was dark and gloomy, too, at least until the art tax passed and we got us some some cave-art….
I bet that even the cave was more energy efficient than that energy hog the liberals built.
Roger@76,
You are angry because you know it is true. John kerry, Teddy Kennedy sure don’t live in public housing. You are a liar for trying to deny it. No matter how many F-Bombs you throw, it won’t make it any less true.
Reply@76,
Fuck you. Fuck the horse you rode in on, too. God is saving an especially hot room in Hell for low-life lying scumbags like you.
More of the liberal intellect I see. Can’t any of you discuss anything without immediately rushing into wanting to perform your carnal acts? I thought Clintons was bad….I guess it must be a requirement to want to screw anyone and everyone in order to be a Democrat. Well, with the $100 million they bilked out of the people for the monorail boondoggle, I would say you certainly have screwed the taxpayer. WHo will you Democrats screw next?
CONGRATULATIONS, Dan B!
You’re the fourth winner of the JERRY SPRINGER AWARD for the most thoughtful and civil posting in this threat (@79). Of course, your analysis disappeared without a trace amidst the throwing of chairs and yelling, but you can go to sleep tonight knowing that you tried. God knows, you tried.
Maybe next time if you want to discuss energy politics you might check out Northwest Environment Watch’s blog, where you don’t have to feel out of place acting like a mature adult: http://cascadiascorecard.typepad.com/blog/
86
You know pbj you are right. The typical reaction of liberals to the truth can be measure by how many expletives they spew forth. The examples are many. How many time have you heard a liberal refer to the Swift Boat Veteran for the TRUTH with the F-word.
Jackass @ 86
There are over 50 million Democrats in this country. You named 2 rich Democrats. You probably could find a few more if you look hard enough. Nearly everyone in Congress is wealthy, as nowadays being a congressman or senator is largely a hobby for the rich. What’s your point? You seem to be trying to imply that all Democrats are wealthy and live in mansions. What utter horseshit. The typical Democrat is a working person struggling to make ends meet and worried about things like job security, inflation, the cost of housing and health care, and retirement. For you to employ that Democrats/liberals are wealthy people living a life of ease is a fucking lie, and you my friend are a fucking liar.
Reply to 87
and all other foul-mouthed Republicans who are offended by my rude insults: Write your complaints here -> [ ] and mail them to Ann Coulter. I’m sure she’ll be happy to use them in her next book.
Comment on 89
The Swifties are a bunch of damn liars and everybody knows it including them. Being a Vietnam veteran, I usually defer to (and respect) other Vietnam veterans, but this bunch has earned my contempt. There may be a Band of Brothers but these assholes aren’t my brothers, they aren’t even Americans, they’re gutter rats.
re 7 pbj: These are our hypocrite millionaires, not yours. Yours have different problems– like Tom DeLay’s “research” into child pornography in the fleshpots of the Orient. Any reports yet from Tom on what we need to do to solve the problem. No, I didn’t think you’d find any…
72
No, sir, I usually proffer a modicum my highly valuable time to correcting the English of maleducated, intellectually lazy sloths such as yourself. It’s much easier and less time consuming than attempting to rectify your lines of non-reasoning.
92
I know… Damn vast right wing conspiracy.
HRH–@93
Just as I thought. You ARE a Professional Picker of Flyshit outta Pepper!
Hey….you corrected me, so now it’s my turn to correct you.
It’s not “rectify” dipshit.
When used by an asshole like you, it’s spelled
R-E-C-T-U-M-F-Y!!!
HRH–
I can picture you—
Coke-bottle Glasses
Hair growing out of you ears.
Mangled Dictionary & Thesaurus all dog-eared, yellow with coffee stains on it.
Big pee spot on the front of your trousers which are pulled up over your little pot-belly.
A concave chest
No muscle tone
And most important a big old hump your back that forces you to hunch over your keyboard.
Mr. Cynical @ 95
“When used by an asshole like you, it’s spelled
R-E-C-T-U-M-F-Y!!!”
You are just full of it this evening, Cynical—humorous jabs that is.
But, yeah, the other stuff, too.
dj–
Thank you for showing me you still have a sense of humor.
For a while there, it appeared you were going completely postal about this whole Gas Tax/Transportation Scam.
Being able to laugh a bit with your pals who are always RIGHT will keep you from falling off the edge of the Earth like the LEFTIST PINHEADS!
HRH–
I forget a couple key items in the HRH image–
1) A couple of your wild ear hairs are used by you to create one of the wildest “bald-spot” combovers in the history of mankind.
2) You have a picure of your mommy as a screen-saver.
3) You drive a 1980 Datsun B-210 with bald tires
4) You eat Braunschweiger sandwiches….period.
5) You spy on your neighbors cat with night-vision goggles.
6) It takes you at least an hour to perfect a one sentence post due to your neurotic complexes.
7) There are no mental health professionals that haven’t heard of you.
95
No, just a bunch of fucking liars.
Chuck @ 3
WOW…you really ARE the fucking DUMBEST troll on this blog! So i suppose because Rush or o’saunesy (however his damn name is spelled…i dont care) say the data is bullshit must makt it so huh?
I’m not gonna waste my time to point out the FACTS…you useless shit…because its obviously lost on you short end of the jene pool a-holes.
It’s gonna be a happy day on this planet when were all dust…due in good part to fucks like yourself! Breed on…oh, learn to swim!
dj @39…….ah, but you are so wrong. when you add the deaths caused by over use/ misues of pesticides and herbicides and the deaths of raptors caused by the wind farms it is compounding. as you lose pairs of breeders for whatever reason the chick count goes down leading to extinction.
isn’t this so sad that a BIG BAD REPUBLICAN has to explain to MR.MORAL DEMOCRAT [HA HA HA] the environmental impact of these things?
you are a complete and ,i might add, illiterate idiot………
I’d be first in line to tell the retards in “my”(?) party their bird killing argument is flat crap! I’ve fought that fight before and would HAPPILY do it again!
Those fools are nothing but fullblown hyprocrites, and i so love to put them in their place!
Lets see…..some dead birds or 10,000 years of radiation….hmmm … I vote windmills.
APB on PBJ!!
If anyone sees PBJ will you please pass along this message. Thanks.
PBJ
Are you going to answer my challenge on the “Dems to introduce Resolution of Inquiry into Plame’s outing” thread? Posts 60-64
Thanks,
GBS
Christmasghost @ 103
ah, but you are so wrong. when you add the deaths caused by over use/ misues of pesticides and herbicides and the deaths of raptors caused by the wind farms it is compounding.
No, Christmasghost, it is additive. You originally stated that “it’s a COMPOUNDING threat.” By the term “threat”, I assumed you were getting at the more proper demographic term “risk” or “hazard”. Adding a new source of mortality increases mortality risk additively.
On the other hand, you are correct in that an additive effect on mortality, under the simplest population growth model, has an exponential effect on population sizes. The simplest model, however, is almost always inaccurate. Instead, models of density dependent population regulation are usually better approximations for natural organisms.
“as you lose pairs of breeders for whatever reason the chick count goes down leading to extinction.”
Increasing the risk of mortality does not typically lead to extinction. The most obvious reason is that the birth rate may still exceed the death rate (for simple population processes, the rate of population growth is birth rate minus death rate [ignoring migration]).
The other reason is that population size tends to be regulated by “density dependent” factors. When mortality goes up a bit, the increased death rate is frequently compensated by either a higher birth rate, or a lower death rate by other causes (e.g. preditors find “greener pastures”, lower disease load, and less competition for food or nesting resources) as the population declines. Examples of density-dependent (or frequency-dependent) population regulation are widespread in the ecological literature.
I am not arguing that wind generators should be put up in sensitive habitats housing endangered bird species or any such thing. Those settings should not be considered for a generator. Again, the scientific literature on bird mortality from wind generators overwhelmingly argues against your suggestion.
dj–
You are an expert on damn near everything!!
Maybe you can explain how in the hell you can stand to be around these LEFTIST PINHEADS??
I enjoy the discussion about birds. Did you know dj that it is a commonly known fact that LEFTIST PINHEADS are birdbrains? And as THEY multiple their “density factor” also increases???
i would vote windmills too righton…if they worked. but they don’t.you just can’t change one devil for another. alot of lefties didn’t think about the consequences of tons of solar panels in what they considered to be a ‘who cares” environment like the desert. unfortunately they do have impact on their surroundings.and not a positive one as they increase the surrounding air temperature. it would be the same for a car that ran on hydrogen. great idea ,right? well…that would depend. since they give off water as a by-product think of what would happen in an area like phoenix where there are so many cars. you would ,over time with the addition of more cars, add humidity to a fragile climate that would change the habitat. change the temp. or humidity just a few points either way and some species will see a die off. the other’s that depend on them either for food or as a pollinizer will then also die off. and that cycle would continue on and on…….
would it be less harmful than carbon dioxide/monoxide? yes, but….
perhaps a really good start would be to have more than one person in every car here in LIBERAL-LAND, hmmm? next time you are on the “freeway” look around you…that’s all you will see……
dj…points well taken…BUT, predators and especially raptors have shown in the past that their recovery rate is abysmally slow. when you combine pesticides [think DDT] and habitat loss you are going to have a problem.an increased death rate does not generally trigger an increased birth rate in raptors as it does with non-predator species.
the death of predators is especially damaging to the environment.
most people don’t think about this.
that’s why i refer to it as a ‘compounding’ effect. when you combine these situations with raptors it is compounding in the end….