Who would Jesus love? Well, according to this coalition of Christian churches, apparently everybody. Even Gays.
Huh. Go figure.
Can’t Bring Yourself to Type the Word “Ass”?
Eager to share our brilliant political commentary and blunt media criticism, but too genteel to link to horsesass.org? Well, good news, ladies: we also answer to HASeattle.com, because, you know, whatever. You're welcome!
David also had two wives. II Samuel 2:2 So should we allow polygamy too? How about two wives and one husband?
A Jewish acquaintance of mine told me St. Paul was gay and “hated” women. That may account for the anti-women policies that the Catholic Church adheres to. Maybe the denigration has been there from the beginning??
Ah, a topic sure to get folks screaming at each other.
Most of the major Christian denominations find themselves conflicted on homosexuality, but are determined to reach out and work for understanding.
Of course, the loudest, most strident voices are those preaching hatred.
Others honestly feel that homosexuality is sinful, but temper their arguments with the understanding that none of us is without sin, and that Jesus did not come for the righteous, but for real people, and loved us all.
The positions taken by the folks that put up the website make good sense. They appear to have done their research and have some legitimate Biblical arguments, which will be read and considered by some, and rejected without even being read by others.
My own understanding is limited, and I admit to a certain uneasiness with the whole topic, but I have often wondered why this seems to be some folks’ favorite sin.
Richard @1,
The point is, biblical verse is often used to justify discrimination against gays. This church group is pointing out that it is used selectively.
As for allowing polygamy, we shouldn’t allow it or disallow based on biblical interpretation. The Christian Bible is not the basis of our laws.
Goldy @ 4
“The Christian Bible is not the basis of our laws.”
If you don’t like the “Christian” translation, what do II Samuel 1:26 and II Samuel 2:2 mean in the original Hebrew?
Look. It happened already. Someone that condemns the message without having read it. If Mr. Pope had actually gone to the site and read the information there, he would have his answer.
I should get a turban, like Johnny Carson doing his “Carnac” bit.
Oh, and one more bit, Mr. Pope. While Goldy correctly pointed out that “The Christian Bible is not the basis of our laws”, he did not bother to mention that neither the Hebrew Torah nor the Islamic Qur’an are the basis for our laws either.
Most folks would have figured that out from the context of the statement.
I think that the Christian Bible is one of the sources of our laws, but certainly not THE single source. Obviously, Judaic religious principals are involved as are those of Greek philosophers and many others.
Those that insist we have a society based on the Christian Bible aren’t any diffferent from those who insist on basing society on The Koran or The Torah. To cast sin and damnation the way of gays and lesbians is reprehensible, regarless of what religion is doing the casting.
The most important to remember about religion is that it is fundamentally a way of explaning the unexplanable. There are lots of interpretations out there of where all the universe came from.
Bad news for ya goldy… “The Christian Bible is not the basis of our laws. ”
Wrong. It’s as much a basis for our laws as the Constitution. You have to be ignorant in the extreme to dismiss the role of Christianity in the formation of Murka. Geez, pick up a book once in a while dumass…
Ah, Mr. Redneck.
Tell me, when was the last time you were arrested for wearing that poly/cotton shirt?
Of course, if the sensibility of your posts here are reflected in your taste in clothes, perhaps an arrest would be appropriate.
http://uglyoutfits.com/2006/07/
MTR:
Picking up a book once in a while. Brilliant idea. Why don’t you pick up Thomas Paines books: The Age of Reason, and the sequel, The Age of Reason II.
I’m not sayin’ you’ll learn something, because everyone on this blog knows that would be a stretch. But, you never know you may not be able to refute the truth — even with a Chi Squared analysis.
Good luck with the reading. Do you need an adult to read it to you? These are not picture books, they’re “big peoples chapter books.” Think ya can handle it?
Loser.
Most of the major Christian denominations find themselves conflicted on homosexuality, but are determined to reach out and work for understanding.
Most of the major Christian denominations find themselves conflicted on truth and reality, but are determined to reach out and work for maintaining the grip of their superstitions upon the general populace.
Fixed your typos.
Mark The Retarded Troop Hater @ 8:
Your such a fucking dumb ass. Do you actually read historically accurate information?
Do ya, Dumb ass?! Or, do you just believe everything you hear and see on Faux News?
Here’s one of the articles from the Barbary Treaties. It was signed as a peace and friendship agreement with Tripoli on Nov. 4, 1796. It was passed unanimously in the Senate, only the 3rd time on our nations history that a bill passed the Senate without any opposition!! The treaty was reprinted in 3 of the largest newspapers of the day without descent or public outcry from Christians.
ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Here’s the link. It’s no obscure institution either, Yale Law school gets automatic credibility.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/ava......htm#art11
Have you ever read the preable to the Constituion of the Untied States of America? If you have do you understand it?
Obviously you don’t. Here it is for you, dumb ass:
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
See the part where it says “We the People . . . do ordain“?
This is critical because right from the start the Foundingfathers made it perfectly clear that the Constituion derives its authority from no higher source that The People. No mystical God, not Jesus, not the Pope, David, a King, or royal decree — only The People do ordain and establish the Constitution for the United States of Ameriica.
Can it be any clearer for you?
8 And if someone asks you to eleborate, Mark, betcha you’ll start quoting Leviticus. That’s Jewish, sweetie. In fact, a lot of Old Testament law has its roots in the Code of Hammurabi and other systems of rules that early tribes came up once there were enough people living together that it became apparent that anarchy just wasn’t working.
If you want to talk about specifically Biblical Christian law, how’s about starting with what Jesus himself told us? Why not start with “Be not afraid” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself”?
Redneck,
In the pursuit of the many degrees you claim to have, plainly you avoided American history and government courses. You display an appalling lack of understanding of the sources from which our forefathers drew up our constitutional framework. You might read a bit of Tom Jefferson’s thoughts on church and state. Moreover, to see how little influence the New Testament has on American laws even today, you might read Christ’s Sermon on the Mount (it’s in Matthew, which is the first book in the New Testament; the New Testament follows the Old Testament). Christ commands us to, for instance, take care of the poor. Not only do you believe that taking care of the poor is not the government’s business, you don’t believe we should do so even on a personal level. Again, Redneck, keep it coming. Your arrogance in light of your ignorance is so entertaining.
GBS @ 12
“Here’s one of the articles from the Barbary Treaties. It was signed as a peace and friendship agreement with Tripoli on Nov. 4, 1796.”
Those “Musselmen” and “Mehomitans” sure as hell didn’t keep that particular treaty, now did they? That is what we deserved for making the treaty on bended knees, and denying that we were a Christian nation!
The Federalist weaklings who signed that limp-wristed treaty were finally voted out of office in 1800, after repeated violations of the same by those “Musselmen” and “Mehomitans”. They were replaced by Thomas Jefferson and the Democrats, who went over to Tripoli and kicked some serious butt!
Do you think the “shores of Tripoli” bit in the Marine Corps hymn comes from the effeminate Federalists, who signed that wonderful treaty with the “Musselmen” and “Mehomitans”, or from the Democrats, who sent over brave Christian Marines to kick the asses of the “Musselmen” and “Mehomitans” who had repeatedly violated that treaty, captured our merchant vessels, and had enslaved and murdered our citizens in the name of their religion?
I have to wonder whether Mark the Welsher is really ignorant. It seems to me that to display height, breadth and depth of ignorance he professes, you would have to carefully study all of the fields of endeavor he pontificates on, just so you could be so consistently wrong about them. I mean, geez, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.
From JB @ 6
Most folks would have figured that out from the context of the statement.
Or better yet, figured that out as a result of the best taxpayer supported legal education in the state.
But it doesn’t surprise me coming from Dick Poop, a guy who graduates at the top of his class, yet fails to garner a single offer from a major firm. A classic book slammer. Can’t think. But boy can he read.
Thus the present silence as he furiously heads off to the library in his brown Vega to look up some response to offer in reply to JB. I’m sure it’ll be a classic. Painstakingly researched. Well supported.
And flawed.
You wouldn’t expect a failure like WhataDICK Pope to actually read something before he opines would you? The fool probably can’t read without help.
15
Bzzzzzt! Non sequitur. Try again.
Whether or not the “Musselmen” and “Mehomitans” upheld their end of the treaty is completely irrelevant to the FACT that this nation was not founded on the Christian faith and officially declared by the House, the Senate and the President.
I’d expect you, of all people, to get that.
You may have disdain for our Founding Fathers, the Constitution and our nation’s rich history, but as a Liberal and a true patriot I for one do NOT and cannot share those views of my great nation with you.
So, uh, Richard, what do you do for a living while you’re not losing cases as an attorney.
My post @ 20 is for Richard Pope @ 15:
Moonbat quiz:
How many of you actually believe that the words “wall of separation between church and state” appear in the Constitution.
Dumshits..
RP @ 15
Umm, how do you know they were? Maybe some were Jews. Maybe some were Muslim; you know, someone who actually knew the language and/or the terrain locally. Maybe some were atheists who had to keep it on the downlow so that the dipshit Christians didn’t toss them over the side. Maybe some were gay (which to some means “not Christian” and to others it does not) and keeping even more on the downlow. Maybe some were Baptists who think that Catholics aren’t Christian.
According to Clifton Olmstead, author of History of Religion in United States, the separation of church and state was completed by the Constitution in 1777. So what the fuck does it matter what religion our troops were, or are?
22 MTR
It was Thomas Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, dorko.
And in Reynolds (98 U.S. at 164, 1879), Everson (330 U.S. at 59, 1947), and McCollum (333 U.S. at 232, 1948) the USSC cited this letter in interpreting the Establishment clause. Do you need more clarity about the “intent of the Founders?”
Medved does a great gig every 4th of July where he goes through in detail the Christian foundation of America. You moonbats oughta tune in and get an education.
Mark The Retarded Troop Hater @ 22:
Where did the expression “wall of separation between church and state” come from and why did it come about?
This ought to be good.
Now we’ll see who the real dumb shit is. I’d say don’t use The Google, but I know you will and you’d be lying if you said you didn’t, so go ahead do some reading.
Get back to us with your newly acquired knowledge.
Daddy Love beat you to it Mark the Troop Hater.
Why did Thomas Jefferson write the letter to the Danbury Batptist????
C’mon, stop with the rhetoric and let’s see what you know!
I posted comments at http://www.debbieschlussel.com/ and she first edited my comments and then deleted all but one. Thanks, Goldy, for having the balls that she clearly does not.
Republicans shot Kurt Cobain,
Actually, as I recall, Kurt Cobain shot Kurt Cobain, with a shotgun.
Mark The Troop Hater:
Jesus H. Fucking Christ!! How long does it take you to write what you know about the Danbury Baptist letter??
What’s the matter, the letters aren’t listed on the RNC talking pointts site???
Baaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa
You have no FUCKING clue do you?!?!?!
Dork.
Mark The Troop Hater
Du. . .duh. . . duhhhh. . . duhhhhhhhhhh C’mon, do you need a drool bucket to catch all that slobber? You retard.
Mark The Troop Hater doesn’t know shit about American history.
What an unpatriotic, cum-drunk, dick wad!
Typical conservative.
All bullshit, no substance.
Really? “cum-drunk?” Wow.
@3 “Of course, the loudest, most strident voices are those preaching hatred.”
Strange how those preaching hatred in the name of Christ somehow overlook the fact that hating is completely incompatible with Christianity. They seem to miss a lot of the rest of the principles of Christianity, too.
Daddy Love @ 24
Thomas Jefferson also built a Navy to defend the United States, and fought theocratic Muslim tyrants — as did his fellow Democratic successors Madison and Monroe. The treaties they negotiation with these Muslim tyrants did not involve payment of ongoing tribute or renunciation of this country’s Christian heritage.
25 Ah, so at least one day of the year we know exactly what Michael’s going to lie about.
Boy this got off track quickly. Brushing aside all the personal snipping, the point was “who would Jesus love”.
See, even if you’re a ‘good Christian’ that goes to one of our local suburban mega-churches, I’ll bet my monthly salary you eat bacon, and don’t thinking working on Sunday is a “sin”. So you’re going to hell too. Christians ONLY selectively interpret the Bible, picking and choosing their way through and ignoring anything they don’t like. I’ve never met a single Christian in my 37 years, not one, that follows “all” of the old or new testament. Sorry. I know some of you might consider yourself ‘better’ than the rest of us, but you aren’t. You follow the parts of the Bible you want..and condemn others for not following other parts. Enjoy that BLT sandwich…see you in hell.
Seriously. This is all just magic and make believe…just stories. I’m not worried that Thor, Apollo, Isis, Quan Yin, leprichons, unicorns, The Great Raven, Vishnu, Jehovah or Jesus is going to ‘punish’ me. Not one god, goddess or demi-god has appeared since science required proof. Thor hasn’t returned to kill a giant. Zeus hasn’t made any demi-gods. We looked at the sun with a telescope and didn’t see the 12 magic celtic horses pulling the sun across the sky. No people have been turned into pillars of salt, or talking burning bushes seen on TV. No “magic”…just Mary in a cheese sandwich. Miracles aren’t what they used to be.
Every single religion on earth started and spread in exactly the same way. By one or two people telling stories, and that spreading along HUMAN trade routes. Not one religion, not even Christianity, was found to ‘magically’ spring up in more than one place. If Columbus got to the new world and found them reading the new Testament…wow. But that didn’t happen. Every single religion is just stories, humans tell other humans. Not one appeared in more than one place at the same time. If I was god, I think I’d tell EVERYONE on the world (which I made) about me and my rules. Not just tell one guy who has to convince everyone else…but that’s how religions work. If we found every single culture worshiping religion X, and all started about the same time, even in places that had never had contact with the outside world, I’d be forced to consider religion X…but that didn’t happen. So knock it off. It’s just made up stories.
David – this is my blog whenever I want it to be. We talk about what I want to talk about.
So your understanding of Christianity is that you go to hell if you don’t follow the rules?
You need to study it just a little bit more.
Richard @ 35:
Boy are you a lousy debater. You must really suck in the courtroom.
The Aricle XI of the Barbary Treaty clearly lets the world know that our nation was not founded on the principles of Christianity.
Big difference and you know it.
I bet you wish Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell were our Founding Fathers, don’t you. The irony is you wouldn’t have all the freedoms you enjoy now if it weren’t for us Liberals.
Look, it’s time to stop pretending. The modern day conservative movement is D-E-A-D, dead. It’s high time for you Republicans to answer the “Now what?” question.
Now what are you going to do as a national political party?
Thanks to George W. Bush, his cronies and the criminals within the conservative movement they have managed to crush the Republican Party. You no longer enjoy the clout you once did with the American public, although you still want to believe you do.
Bob Woodward said it best: “State-of-Denial.”
Good luck you cum-drunk fucks with your denial problems.
Mark The Cum-Drunk Troop Hater:
Speaking of having to study a little bit, how’d your research go regarding the Danbury Baptist letter to President Jefferson?
Did you read their letter to President Jefferson yet?
If you had, and if you had a knowledgeable adult with you to ‘splain it, you’d understand the who, what, where, why of the Separation clause, wouldn’t you?
You dolt.
David @ 37
Christian theology does not mandate that one follow the rules laid out in the Old Testament. In fact Christ said that he was sent to fulfill the Law. Jews of the Old Testament had all those rules they had to obey about eating shrimp, interweaving fabrics and the like. Jesus did away with all that and replaced the Law with just two commandments:
Love God with everything that is in you,
and Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
That doesn’t mean that the laws against murder, adultery, and the like are done away with. In fact the Ten Commandments are pretty good guidelines, and any Christian that loves God and his fellow man is going to follow them. It does mean, though, that you aren’t going to go to Hell or get stoned by the congregation for putting eggs too close to the stove on the Sabbath.
The problem, of course, is selective interpretation of Scripture. All too many people are willing to thunder on about the parts of Scripture they find convenient to their own mindset and either ignore the other parts, or warp them ot suit themselves. Really, it all comes down to the two great commandments. Does someone who professes Christianity love God, and love their fellow man? And more importantly, can you tell by their actions rather than what they say that they do?
This has been your thought for the day. Please send contributions in care of this station, Box 24, Del Rio, Texas.
Is MTR pretending to be a Christian today? I’m going to refrain from judging him, but I would have to say that the sentiments he expresses on a regular basis reflect an utter unfamiliarity with the Gospel message. He just doesn’t seem to be a lover.
RP @ 35
Thomas Jefferson, in his Notes on the State of Virginia (Thomas Jefferson: Writings: Autobiography / Notes on the State of Virginia / Public and Private Papers / Addresses / Letters (1984, ISBN 978-0-94045016-5) ), said: “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world.”
So, you know, HE said that.
YOU said a lot of other stuff. You said that TJ built the Navy. Well, it was started under the Federalists while we were having naval skirmishes with France and were being attacked by the Barbars; you know, authorized under the Naval Act of 1794. You said that he (we) “fought theocratic Muslim tyrants.” They were certainly as eager to use Islam to whip up sentiment as many of our leaders are to use Christianity.
But do you really think it mattered whether the pirates preying on American shipping were Muslim or not? Or that if those kingdoms were not Muslim, no hostilities would have ever occurred?
pruod leftist @ 43
MTR isn’t pretending to be anything. He’s just trolling and amusing himself at our reactions.
Since several here have already posted the Christian version, your friendly local United Methodist will bring out the Jewish version of that same thought:
הגיד לך אדם מה טוב ומה יהוה דורש ממך כי אם עשות משפט ואהבת חסד והצנע לכת עם אלהיך׃
“He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?”
(Anyone that actually reads Hebrew, please check the translation to ensure I got it right.)
45
Yeah, pretty much.
Some of the folks that call themselves “liberal” are truly amazing. We declare ourselves to be open to others, and yet try to alienate people on our own side.
Tlazolteotl, from your post, I presume that you would have all Christians leave the Democratic Party and cease working for social justice, helping to solve the problems of hunger and poverty, and head on over to the Republican Party.
The people that put together that website that is at the heart of this thread are not welcome in your Democratic Party.
The members of the many denominations that make up the National Council of Churches, that have condemned the Iraq war, that promote social programs for the poor, and generally support the liberal/progressive program are also not welcome, and you don’t want our help.
Winning really doesn’t set well with you, does it? Much more fun to be part of that angry minority, shaking your fist at “the man” and attending little meetings in coffee houses, complaining about how the “establishment” is holding you down and accomplishing nothing.
Sorry to disappoint you. I’ll be at the caucuses. You need us much more than we need you. I hear that the Socialist Workers Party is pretty anti-Christian, and they don’t have much of a chance of ever winning anything. You might like them.
Here’s how a few of us are inspired by our “religious delusions”…
http://www.olljustice.org
John B @ 48
I share your concern about certain Democrats disparaging people of faith. No good can come from that. If 90% of Americans believe in a Supreme Being, as some polls suggest, any political party that seeks to weed out believers is simply suicidal. Moreover, I am a liberal because of my faith. If not for the Gospel message of peace, love, and charity, I think I might just go the way of the warmongering, gluttonous, self-indulgent rightwingers. So, I really don’t want to hear someone from my side of the political fence put down the religious principles that produced my political principles.
David Love @ 44
I go and say nice things about the founder of the Democratic Party and our nation’s most revered Democratic President, and you folks still throw as much shit as possible at me? Too bad so many Jeffersonian principles have been abandoned.
I certainly agree with the sentiments that you have quoted from Thomas Jefferson. He also bought a Koran translation so that he could become familiar with the theological reasoning of the Muslim tyrants. And he never gratuitously repudiated this nation’s Christian heritage, since he recognized both the positive and negative aspects of this.
Too bad folks like you deride free democracies, such as the United States and modern Europe, because of their Christian heritage, but excuse theological tyrannies, such as practically all of the Middle East, because of their Muslim heritage.
Barelli 48 – WTF is your definition “social justice”. My definition is that it’s the bad choice crowd wanting me to pick up the tab for their lifetime of bad decisions.
Mr. Pope:
While some predominantly Muslim countries are not democracies, many are.
Turkey. I may have issues with their national policies, but they are a secular state and predominantly Muslim.
Jordan. A Constitutional Monarchy.
Egypt. Another country with some problems, but with a democratic form of government.
Indonesia. The single largest Muslim country is a Republic with a democratically elected government.
Pakistan. No arguing that they have problems, but they are also a representative democracy.
Bangladesh. With roughly half the population of the United States, this Muslim country has been remarkably stable over the last 25 years, and despite being one of the world’s poorest nations, has been sustaining a rather impressive growth rate.
Kazakhstan. Almost evenly divided between Muslim and Christian, it has been one of the relatively stable former Soviet republics, and has a representative government, albeit with some problems.
There are a bunch more, but I think you get the point. The combined populations of these Muslim countries with democratically elected governments is approximately three quarters of a billion people, and far outnumbers the population of the non-democratically elected Muslim countries.
In comparison, Iran, where the democratically elected government is ineffective against the religious leaders has a smaller population than either Turkey or Egypt, both Middle Eastern Islamic democracies.
Source: CIA World Factbook
#53…fair point John. Turkey, Jordon and Indonesia are good example. I’d correct you on Pakistan. I don’t think having a military dictator who took over in a coup and refuses to have a new election is a great example of a democracy. Egypt also doesn’t have ‘actual’ elections. If you only have one ruling party and outlaw your opponents, it’s not a democracy. I mean Iraq had presidential elections under Hussein, guess what…he won every time. Just having elections doesn’t make a democracy unless they’re free and fair.
David:
Yes, Pakistan is at best marginal as democracies go, although they still have an active, elected legislative branch.
Egypt is an interesting case, as the primary opposition to the ruling party is illegal due to an official ban on religious parties.
As Mr. Pope’s comments were primarily aimed at religious tyrannies, I think Egypt and Pakistan both serve as counters to the basic argument, because while neither is a true democracy, the authoritarian governments in both cases are in direct opposition to rule by the religious leaders.
Additionally, when Mr. Pope speaks of modern Europe, he seems to forget just how young many of those governments really are. At the time of Jefferson, just about the only major European government that could be considered a democracy was Great Britain, with whom we were not terribly friendly.
Of course, we were friendly with France, which was a dictatorship at the time.
And just for an interesting tidbit, of the variety that comes up when researching, it appears that Charles Joseph Bonaparte, grand-nephew of Napoleon, was the founder of the FBI.
Too bad folks like you deride free democracies, such as the United States and modern Europe, because of their Christian heritage, but excuse theological tyrannies, such as practically all of the Middle East, because of their Muslim heritage.
Damn, Dick Poop! Does that say what I think it says?
“Christian heritage” = “free democracy”
“Muslim heritage” = “theological tyranny”
Nice one! That’s so thoughtful and intelligent, but for the terrible body odor you might have a shot at a top political appointment in the White House.
It’s true!
The first clause of Richard’s statement:
“Too bad folks like you deride free democracies, such as the United States and modern Europe, because of their Christian heritage,”
identifies “Christian heritage” as a quality of all “free democracies”.
While the second clause:
“but excuse theological tyrannies, such as practically all of the Middle East, because of their Muslim heritage.”
identifies “Muslim heritage” as a quality of all “theological tyrannies”.
Richard, Richard, Richard. What were you thinking? This stuff lives as documentation of your statements for-ev-er! Do you honestly think you can manage to win elected office in King County with statements like that in your record? Do you expect Aziz Junejo to look the other way? Do you expect Goldy to look the other way?
Rest assured, we’ll all be saving an archive of this page for future reference. Thanks!