If there are any good lawyers out there willing to file a suit pro bono, seeking to bar Washington Attorney General Rob McKenna from using state funds to participate in a lawsuit seeking to toss out health care reform, I’d be happy to play the part of the plaintiff.
As per the post on Publicola, I fail to see where McKenna has either the constitutional or statutory authority to unilaterally join such a suit on behalf of the citizens of Washington state, and while some might question the legal grounds for just some guy seeking an injunction to bar the AG from action… well… isn’t that ironic considering the bullshit Tentherist arguments on which McKenna and his Republican allies are basing their challenge.
In the meanwhile, over 4,200 people have already joined the Facebook group, Washington Tax Payers OPT OUT of Rob McKenna’s Lawsuit, and I urge you to join as well. The King County Dems have also created an online petition, Stop the Health Care Lawsuit, and I urge you to sign that too.
And oh yeah… call McKenna’s office, (360) 753-6200, and give him a piece of your mind. I understand the phone is ringing off the hook with angry callers; let’s keep it that way.
UPDATE:
There is another petition, sponsored by Fuse, that has already collected over 3,000 signatures. Sign up there too!
No!!!
Let him sue. Let everyone see his connections to far-right assholes, let everyone watch him make a horses ass out of himself, loose a bunch of money, and fail.
“I fail to see where McKenna has either the constitutional or statutory authority to unilaterally join such a suit on behalf of the citizens of Washington state”
I fail to understand where he doesn’t. Among other things his job is to defend the legal rights of citizens, whether they know such rights are being violated or not.
You can cede all economic liberties to Der Fuehrer Obama if you like. I won’t. McKenna is a hero.
Re 1
It’s far from clear that he’ll fail. The Supreme Court is the last and best bastion of real American representation in this country. He’d likely win there, and no appeal from them.
Laugh it up, fools. 2010 will be really bad for you.
Sign ‘Stop the Lawsuit’ Petition Here
http://www.petitiononline.com/.....ition.html
Re 4
So Rabbit, you’re the attorney. What specific legal issues do you have with McKennas lawsuit? Or is this just a partisan bullshit waste of time?
I was pretty dispirited, convinced that the dems were spineless and far too corporate.
but then I saw this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded
This energized me. No way in HELL am I going to roll over and let people like that control the government without a fight.
They are abusive to a weak old man, because they fear he might… cost them money?
“I’ll decide if you get health care.”
What is wrong with the souls of conservatives to think like that?
@2, 3 Instead of posting asinine amateur legal opinions, you should leave the law to people who know what they’re talking, and redirect your energy to your own business affairs. You clearly don’t.
@3
If he wins we go back to people going broke to pay for healthcare, pre-existing waiting periods for kids, insurance companies dropping people when they get sick & refusing to pay for legitimate bills (had that one happen to me!).
And people will hate him for that.
It’s win-win for us.
@5 The attorney general is not an at-large attorney representing the citizens of the state. He is the state’s lawyer, and has only the authority given to him by statute.
In general, that authority is to defend legislation passed by the legislature against legal challenges in the courts; provide legal advice to state officers and agencies, and represent them in lawsuits, in matters arising from their official duties; consult with, and assist, county prosecuting attorneys in law enforcement matters; and so on.
The attorney general is not authorized to represent private citizens, either individually or collectively, except where expressly authorized or directed by statute to do so (as, for example, in enforcing consumer protection laws); and, in fact, doing so would often create a conflict of interest.
The only context in which McKenna could sue on behalf of the state to overturn an act of Congress would be if the issue came up in the course of litigation to which the state was a party, or in furtherance of a legislative resolution expressing the will of the state.
@9
Sounds like yet another reason we should let him try and be part of this lawsuit and laugh our asses off when he falls on his face.
Re 7
You mean experts like Rob McKenna, the Attorney General?
Re 9
If law were that cut and dried we wouldn’t need attorneys. It isn’t. Your opinion is just that, an opinion. Better than mine, as a past expert I’ll grant you. But McKenna is expressing an opinion for which his elected status makes him vulnerable. If he thought it that weak it’s highly unlikely he’d advance it in a lunatic leftist state like this.
@8
Should read:
pre-existing conditions waiting periods for kids, insurance companies dropping…
@12
If he thought…
Pretty much identifies the problem.
Republican winning strategy in the next two election cycles-
Health care coverage won’t extend to the poor or working poor. The subsidy pays in the form of a tax credit. Meanwhile for 14 months premiums must be paid, or one is a criminal. The top subsidy is 80%, which means a borderline family must now find the other 20% somewhere, or again be a criminal.
Health care subsidies on ‘Cadillac’ plans aren’t a high earner tax. They are an additional burden on what progressives continually call a struggling middle class. Most decent plans will fall into the Obamacare category of ‘Cadillac.’
All premiums will rise at a higher rate than had Congress done nothing. This is a CBO forecast. So again, for your ‘struggling middle class’ they’ll be caught between higher taxes and higher premiums.
What taxation does affect the wealthy will be passed on in higher consumer costs, lower or stagnant wages, or other costs. They aren’t wealthy because they’re stupid.
So good luck. With a moderately intelligent campaign strategy 2010 and 2012 look pretty bleak for you folks.
And
15 Addendum
And of course, other than progressives, Americans are a liberty loving people. A basic appeal to Obama over-reaching, theft of basic economic liberties and the redefinition of government as having a proper place in my doctors’ office will help with middle America.
He has not tried even a parking ticket, let alone a law suit of this magnitude. This makes him an expert?
@15
All good points. But you have one small problem. It was Republican obstructionism from start to finish that made this the reality we now have.
“McKenna received his J.D. from the University of Chicago Law School in 1988, where he was a member of the Law Review. He earned a B.A. in Economics and a B.A. in International Studies, both with honors, from the University of Washington. McKenna was student body president at the U.W. and graduated Phi Beta Kappa. He has been an attorney for 20 years since beginning his career in 1988 at the Bellevue office of Perkins Coie, one of the nation’s top 50 law firms. He practiced business and regulatory law at Perkins Coie from June 1988 to January 1996.”
Yeah, I wouldn’t trust this guys legal advice.
@12 It is cut-and-dried. The statute spells out the attorney general’s authority, and unless this lawsuit falls within that authority, it’s illegal.
Yeah — Healthcare will be Obama’s Waterloo — except he’ll be Wellington.
It Won’t Stand
I just got off the phone with my legislator’s office. The aide told me they’ve received a tremendous number of phone calls and e-mails, and said it is “likely” the legislature is going to take some sort of action to stop this lawsuit. At this point, legislators and lawyers are huddling to decide on a course of action.
The money that those who opt out of healthcare must pay goes to a fund that will pay their emergency room bills when many of them end up there because of their freedom loving ways.
“If he thought it that weak it’s highly unlikely he’d advance it in a lunatic leftist state like this.”
Unless he, too, is a lunatic. In light of Robbie’s decision, that appears to be a distinct possibility.
lost is the new JCH.
FYI lost JCH was a foolish conservative who ranted endlessly falsehoods put forth by the RNC and Fox Noise.
Re 20
See 19
Re Major Major
@21
See 15
@23
If they pay, which no sensible citizen will. They can take my property at the point of a gun, and show themselves as the basic thieves they are. But not one dime of my money will go into any fund anywhere by any voluntary act of mine.
“With a moderately intelligent campaign strategy 2010 and 2012 look pretty bleak for you folks.”
But what if we have a really intelligent campaign strategy in ’10 & ’12? Won’t we do better?
On the other hand, if you are referring to the gop strategy in those years, the term “moderately intelligent” strikes me as an oxymoron.
@11 McKenna isn’t a neutral party and isn’t rendering objective legal opinions in this matter. He’s speaking and acting as a politician, not the state’s lawyer, but I don’t expect a twit like you to be able to make that distinction.
And that’s the point. There’s probably a justificable legal issue of whether he is using the attorney general’s office to represent a political party or the State of Washington. A lot of lawyers are looking at this right now, and if her persists, the courts probably will be asked to decide this question. Don’t be surprised if a lawsuit is filed against him within the next few days.
In any case, see my comment at 22, it’s likely the legislature is going to intervene.
Re 25
I see.
So in fact subsidies in the form of a tax credit will be for the coming year? Don’t see that in the bill.
And Cadillac plans aren’t the norm? Do the numbers. Most plans when you add employer and employee contributions will qualify under Obamacare. And they set the terms, so when they need more money ‘Cadillac’ will be the new Yugo.
The CBO rated what will happen to premiums under a mandatory system months ago. And rates will rise faster than had Der Fuerher not acted.
I haven’t seen Fox, I don’t own a TV. I haven’t read any papers, mostly they lie. If you get all your information and ideas from someone else, fine. But don’t project.
Actually, the list of State taking legal or legislative action is increasing rapidly–
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....re-reform/
Perhaps citizens should sue Gregoire for attempting to dissuade McKenna from filing the lawsuit by threatening to cut his Budget?
There are some real legal issues if Gregoire keeps going down this path.
So why is Gregoire in the minority with States doing absolutely NOTHING??
Is nothing misfeasance or malfeasance?
That is recallable.
This will test the bounds of our Constitution and legal system….and more clearly define State’s Rights.
Bring it on says lefty Michael!!
Your wishes are answered Michael.
Do you still feel that way….or have “tough guy” remorse??
Re 28
Assume MkKenna is ordered to cease and desist. This means we aren’t represented in this lawsuit.
In Washington. Which leaves 12 other states and counting.
Rob McKenna is a putz!
I agree with Roger Rabbit…let the guy make a jackass of himself.
Then, after he loses, let’s sue HIM to recover the money spent on his political ploy!
And don’t forget Dave “Sig Heil” Reichert
he might be good at finding killers, but he sucks on everything political…let’s vote that a-hole out in 2010. He’s another phony “moderate” R!
Re 27
I couldn’t agree more. The last election was a debacle by the Republicans.
They allowed Clintons felonies to be represented as mere adultery.
The record isn’t great, but the hour sometimes produces the man. I can hope.
Rog–
For the Governor and Legislature to stand-by and allow an unConsitutional Law to impact their citizens constitutes Misfeasance or Malfeasance in office and is a recallable offense.
Remember Rog…no action is an action.
The issue is do they know…or should they know this Health Care Bill is Unconstitutional.
Gregoire was the State AG for many years.
She hass now weighed in.
Ignorance of the law won’t work for her.
Recall Gregoire…for misfeasance/malfeasance in office by failing to protect citizens from a violation of their Constitutional Rights per 10th Amendment.
Let’s keep this thing going!!
Roger Rabbit KNOWS Gregoire & the Democrat Legislature must be very careful not to threaten McKenna with Budget cuts or any other types of threats.
Didn’t our Elected Officials, including Gregoire, take an OATH OF OFFICE to uphold the laws & Constitution of the State of Wa. and United States??
Is Gregoire violating her Constitutional Oath??
If she hasn’t already…she is dangerously close.
I contend that Gregoire, as a former AG, knows or should know that this Health Care Bill mandate is in violation of the 10th Amendment.
Will McKenna be forced to arrest her???
Today is one of the greatest days in American history. With the heavy lift efforts by Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid, we witnessed with the stroke of a pen by President Barak Obama, the END of the Reagan Revolution.
Reagan’s radical, right-wing, fear mongering ideology DIED. The head of the snake has been severed by LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE Democrats and the citizens who gave us control of congress in 2006, a super-majority in 2008, and the Presidency in 2008.
The WILL of The People, as enshrined as the SUPREME authority of the land, even above that of “God’s”, has been heard, acted upon and delivered to those who ORDAIN the Constitution.
Our Representative Democracy of governing by MAJORITY RULE has prevailed over of the
tyranny of the minority who would rather dictate their radical Reagan ideology and impose their will like a dictator would.
Face it you Republicans, you Radical Reaganites, you Christian Conservatives, you Moral Majority, you Teabaggers, you have been defeated at YOUR Waterloo.
Democrats, the party that traces its roots to the founding of our nation, have prevailed yet again.
Victory is solely ours. Thank you for each and every single one of you for NOT voting to reform HCR, to keep the status quo of championing the cause of insurance companies at the expense of middle class Americans. You will pay for it at the polls this fall.
Losty: “I can hope.”
Hope is not a plan.
@19 As I noted above, you can’t tell the difference between a political opinion and a legal opinion.
@26 “But not one dime of my money will go into any fund anywhere by any voluntary act of mine.”
When did any government ever make compliance with its taxes and laws voluntary?
29. lostinaseaofblue spews:
I haven’t seen Fox, I don’t own a TV. I haven’t read any papers, mostly they lie.
A couple of things here that just don’t add up, lost.
A) You don’t own a TV? Really? OK maybe.
B) You’ve never seen Fox News? Hmmm . . no TV
C) I haven’t read any papers. OK you’re not a reader.
So you don’t own a TV which means you watch NO news, you don’t read any newspapers. That pretty much leaves the ‘Internets’ and magazines.
Where do you get your news from? KVI, KTTH other radio stations?
You parrot all the RNC/Fox news talking points so either you’re full of shit and lying about never watching Fox or reading newspapers (most likely) or you’re absorbing the talking points from some other source.
Either way, you succumb to the tool of conservative propaganda.
re 26: Except for government mandated auto insurance.
In addition to contacting my state legislators, I have also sent an e-mail to the attorney general objecting to this lawsuit. I told him that, as a citizen and taxpayer, I don’t agree with this and he does not have my permission to sue on my behalf.
I urge the rest of you to contact McKenna, too. You can do so through the e-mail form on the attorney general’s web page. Let him know that you object to him representing your interests in this way. The more phone calls and e-mails he gets, the better, because he’s a politician and it’s time to bring constituent pressure to bear.
@22
I bet they prohibit the AG from spending any of his budget or wasting any of his staff time on this lawsuit.
I’m sure the right will whine about it, but at the end of the day the legislature does have the power of the purse.
Of course if McKenna continues to be an idiot, the next step should be censure, followed by impeachment.
@28 justiciable not justificable
Re 38
Maybe. But McKenna can, which was why I cited his bio.
Re 39
It’s called civil disobedience. When the government stops acting the interests of citizens and starts acting in its’ own it can be an option. That is failing the suit by the attorneys general and other legal recourse.
Re GBS
I don’t honestly care what you think of my integrity, and you can call me a liar until you’re blue in the face as well as the politics.
“OK you’re not a reader.” This is of course laughable. Because I don’t read innacurate blurbs about what’s going on I’m not a reader. Please.
I lost the habit of TV when I lived in Europe, where it’s even worse than here. Sitcoms aren’t funny, dramas aren’t suspenseful and news isn’t accurate or unbiased. Why would I waste my time?
Fox and MSNBC are both mouthpieces for political parties. Again, why would I waste my time?
“You parrot all the RNC/Fox news talking points.” Yes, it can happen that ideas can occur spontaneously. Crick and Watson barely beat another team to the double helix. Darwin published just ahead of another scientist. And political parties represent strong currents of ideas, or they would simply be factions.
How hard is that for you to understand?
“
If John Boehner were a crayon, what color would he be?
@31 McKenna is in a very bad spot, and the GOP strategy has put him there. It’s going to be very easy to argue that he’s representing the Republican Party instead of the State of Washington, and it’s going to be very hard for judges to ignore the appearance of that. And in law — and in courts — appearances sometimes matter as much as substance.
re 45: You forgot that Babe Ruth invented the sewing machine simultaneously with Isaac Bashevis Singer.
@46 Purple.
Re 43
Odd, I seem to recall a whole shouting circus about Bush excercising his right to fire at will attorneys. Where is the shouting from the left on an independent attorney general?
Re 41
For the priviledge to drive I allow restrictions on my liberty while doing so. I can elect not to drive, or allow these infringements.
With health insurance no such priviledge is granted. No compelling government interest is served to allow the infringement. No opt out provision without criminal sanctions is allowed.
Is this clear enough even for you?
Re48
Try reading for a change. Actually scientific and academic history is full of these kinds of confluence of ideas. It’s pretty interesting to those capable of anything other than blind class envy.
@45 “It’s called civil disobedience.”
The mandatory health insurance provision is in there for a reason. According to Rep. Inslee, insureds pay $1,300 a year in extra premiums because of the medical bills of uninsureds. This law is designed to end this freeloading, and as a premium payer, I want the government to enforce it.
Most of our laws depend heavily on voluntarily compliance. If rightwing ideologues like you opt for massive civil disobedience, a large enforcement bureaucracy will be needed, vastly increasing costs. You will be responsible for that.
So glad they got this bill signed. Rob McKenna just fragged himself with this parrot dropping catcher of a lawsuit.
Here is my prediction:
Congressional Democrats will not lose more than 15 seats in November, and the Senate Dems will have 55 members next year.
This bill could have cost the Dems big time if they had not passed it. Watch the poll numbers climb as Americans educate themselves on the positive aspects of this legislation.
Palin running in 2012? Big that shit on, be-otches!!!!!
Republicans screwed themselves BIG TIME.
Boy lostinaseaofblue really is lost isn’t he? Grasping at straws to make some sort of imaginary victory out of the huge loss the GOP just suffered and the self-inflicted wounds Republicans like McKenna are causing by their actions.
First the goalposts on the health care debate are moved forever. Just like Social Security and Medicare the discussion will be about how to improve HCR not repealing it entirely.
Second, even if there is a backlash against HCR in GOP leaning and swing states and districts, the democrats did shore up their base with passage of HCR. Furthermore even if Democrats have to spend a generation in the electoral wilderness, passing HCR was worth it.
Third even assuming some or another part of the HCR legislation is found to be unconstitutional, it is likely the courts will rule narrowly rather than tossing the entire bill out.
Lastly, Rob McKenna just destroyed any future he had as a statewide elected official in Washington State. I have no idea what he was thinking, unless he really believes he’s acting on high-minded principle.
@53 “Congressional Democrats will not lose more than 15 seats in November, and the Senate Dems will have 55 members next year.”
That should be pretty close to accurate.
I do think the witless GOPer obstructionists outsmarted themselves this time.
@50
Independent or not the legislature still controls his budget. They also can censure him for his actions if they so desire. Exceeding the authority of his office is a good reason to do so.
@34
Yeah, because so many Republican AGs and governors were suing Bush/Cheney for their violations of our nation’s laws! In fact, today I heard McKenna say he opposed a lot of the Patriot Act also. But somehow I don’t recall him suing over the infringements on our liberties in that case. I guess that makes McKenna…..a hypocrite! Or a TOOL, your choice. LOL
Oh and lost, I know passage of Health Care Reform has probably driven you to drink, but you might want to either lay off the sauce or not post at HA for a while.
I’m willing to change one aspect of the HCR law to accommodate those who do not wish to participate in the new HCR.
You can opt out, but NEVER opt in. Never be the beneficiary of any of the provisions contained with in the law.
Never can you show up at an Emergency Room and expect to be treated if you cannot pay for it.
Fair? I think it’s more than DAMN fair and only a few DUMB ASSES would opt out. Very few.
Face it. For all the whining, crying, stomping of feet, cries of unconstitutionality, the Teabaggers are going to use, and going to like their ObamaCARE.
That, is the plain and simple truth.
Answer: “Stupid Republican”
Georgia Supreme Court Strikes Down Tort Reform
“By a 7-0 vote, the Supreme Court of Georgia on Monday struck down the state’s caps on pain and suffering damages in medical malpractice cases. ‘The very existence of the caps, in any amount, is violative of the right to trial by jury,’ Chief Justice Carol W. Hunstein wrote in her opinion for the court.”
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.....l%20Awards
@ 62:
WOW! I didn’t know that GA was a bastion of Liberalism.
Or is the Party of No just plain wrong? According to the GA Supreme Court.
Re Chris Stefan
The shrillness of your arguments is intended to mask their paucity, I assume.
So how do you plan to deal with the forced criminalization of the borderline poor?
How do you plan to keep premiums in check when we are all paying for every sick person on insurance?
How do you plan to protect the middle class from government taxes on their plans on one side and premium rises on the other?
How do you deal with the fundamental issue of my right not to engage in commerce at will?
See, you can’t.
Another reason why I like Dolly Parton:
Source: http://www.theboot.com/2010/03.....?icid=main|main|dl2|link5|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theboot.com%2F2010%2F03%2F23%2Fdolly-parton-bob-corker%2F
I grew up in a middle-class suburb in east Tennessee, but Dolly Parton grew up in dirt-poor hill country of north-eastern Tennessee, in the foothills of the Appallachians. If you’ve ever seen an interview with her, you can’t help but love her ability to laugh at herself and her stage image. She’s really just a down-home country gal.
@49, re @46:
Ok, I bite: how the fuck can you see purple under orange, Mr. Rabbit?
@54:
Stupid?
As I recall, he started this crap when HCR looked dead a couple months ago (after the Brown fiasco). He was trying to curry teabagger cred when it didn’t appear to have any political cost because it wouldn’t go anywhere.
He’s just politically stupid. And now he’s a teabagger too. He’s fucked. And the beauty part is that he was the best the Rs had. Now they’re fucked.
@49, re @46:
BTW: Wouldn’t purple under orange be dark shit brown?
Remember that this was supposed to be Obama’s Waterloo?
Unfortunately for the (R)’s, he took on Wellington’s role instead of the little dictator’s.
Now McKenna is taking on the little guy’s role for the far-wingnut branch of the GOP.
@39
They made it optional when they included an opt out option.
Losty: “How do you deal with the fundamental issue of my right not to engage in commerce at will?”
There are many such restrictions (child labor, safety, environmental, wages, etc.). Evoking this alleged ‘principle’ is not a valid argument.
WELCOME TO THE SLIPPERY SLOPE FUCKAH!!!!! IT WAS PART OF OUR PLAN ALL ALONG!!!!!!! FROM THE VERY BEGINNING….. AT THE DAWN OF TIME!!!!! (cackle, urp).
Sincerely,
The Masons and The Illuminati
So who are the few deluded dupes who support Granny and Not-Very-Hairy? And why do they hang out all day at horsesass.org?
@60
That’s how SSI works. Once you’re out you’re out for good.
They probably should expand the religous opt out option.
Lostisms: “I can elect not to drive, or allow these infringements.”
You cannot elect to “opt out” of the need for health care without affecting your fellow citizens because sooner or later nearly everybody will need it (people who get run over by busses won’t, but that’s a special case that consumes other taxpayer dollars).
From an insurance standpoint, those who “opt out” of driving are not even part of the pool as far as underwriting calculations are concerned. That is not the case with our current health care system.
But do keep on hoping.
Civil disobedience: Go for it.
If you want to critque the plan, be sure to go to FireDogLake.com. It’s a good lefty site, and you might get infected with common sense by reading it (despite your claim, I assume you read).
@64: You’re clearly NOT a constitutional scholar. You’re just another run o’ the mill, ill-informed, wingnut liar.
But just for the sake of argument, let’s imagine the mandate gets ruled unconstitutional by the right wing majority.
Note that there’s that little standard clause in ALL legislation called “severability”, meaning the rest of the legislation stands.
Insurance companies go broke; we get medicare expansion to make up the difference, get a better health care outcome and save huge bucks.
I think we’ll get Medicare buy-in soon anyway (it only takes 51 votes cuz it’s just a budget issue and deficit reduction to boot).
Be careful what you wish for, cuz we’ll get what we really wanted sooner, asshole.
….the religous opt out option.
I have opted out of religion for now, but reserve the right to opt back in later and beg for forgiveness!
Wait a minute….that’s…that’s…just like our current health care system!
OH GOD!!!!!!!!!!!
The A-G
Tell it to A-G Greriore:
And this:
And if Rabbit’s right for a change, if the A-G
“is not authorized to represent private citizens” collectively, then why was A-G Gregoire hanging out in the tobacco collective with a gang of trial lawyers?
(And why don’t sharks eat trial lawyers? Professional courtesy.)
Would it be un-Christian to ask the Religulous Left to opt out of oxygen?
Since your god is the goddess, and since your stations of the cross goddess Gaia involve lots of CO2, do us all a favor and take the wafer. Put your faith where your big mouths are. Stop breathing.
Health-care “crisis” solved. Global warming solved. Next problem?
You’re pumping irony, right? Good lawyer? Not out there. Not around here. Not since Piper moved on.
Comments that some will be paying into health care at the point of a gun? Really? Now states are talking about rescinding the 17th amendment and even putting forward others?
This thing I wrote last month is just a little bit closer now.
One small thing keeps getting forgotten in all of this “opt-out of HCR” talk.
Germs don’t recognize an opt-out clause. They don’t stay confined to a person who has opted out, without spreading their infection among the general population. Likewise, they don’t decide to “pass by” someone who opts-out, simply because they argue that they are young and healthy and take care of themselves and don’t need no stinking health insurance.
That’s why the government made certain childhood immunizations mandatory in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, which led to the virtual elimination of TB and polio as a health threat in this country.
Even Republican governor Schwartzenager (sp?) recognized that by expanding health care to all children, whether in this country legally or not, he was protecting all of us from disease – because germs aren’t stopped by birth certificates, visas, or passports.
Daddy, you ignorant slut. Your ignorance of David Walker, Comptroller General of the United States, didn’t stop you from putting your ignorance on parade. Idiot that you are, you were deep in your spew when you decided belatedly to check up on “this Walker.” Then you went back to full-frontal spew mode.
Here’s a suggestion: Shut up and learn. Take time to get a grip on ‘this Walker’ and his argument and his methodology before wasting more of our time. And our time horizon.
ACORN: Again you were in full spew while failing to deal with the salient fact that ACORN is defunct. Defunct means fucked. It means bankrupt. It’s the defining fact about ACORN you tried to ignore until your rant was on its last gasp.
Then you tried to shift blame for defunct ACORN’s bankruptcy to Republican deceit. Actually, Dad, ACORN died because of ACORN deceit. Maybe you didn’t read the NY Times link about embezzlement and fraud.
You didn’t demolish anything of mine. My point about defunct ACORN is undemolished. So is my point that ACORN demolished itself.
In fact, for all the bolivating among the wingnuts insisting that they don’t engage in interstate commerce so the HCR regulations can’t apply to them, there is a simple way for the federal AG to win that lawsuit. He need only point to the potential danger to interstate commerce caused by of a plague of infectious, but preventable, disease if a substantial population of the U.S. doesn’t have access to adequate health care. That alone should suffice to avoid any 10th Amendment challenge.
By the way, it’s curious, isn’t it, that all the wingnuts who proclaim themselves to be “successful businessmen and investors” now insist that they don’t engage in interstate commerce, so their health care has no impact?
Isn’t McKenna treading dangerously over the line of the classic conflict-of-interest rules applicable to attorneys in this state (and every other state)? He has a vested outcome in the filing of this suit (for tangential political purposes), and his interests run counter to the majority of the citizens of the state. Sure, as a state AG you can’t really represent EVERYBODY, because someone’s ox is being gored everytime you prosecute someone or try to enforce a state law or regulation. But this really seems to cross the line.
Personally, I don’t care whether or not McKenna is authorized under state law to file this suit or not. What’s more important to me is that he is showing piss-poor judgement in joning in a lawsuit despite (a) an apparant conflict-of-interest with his clients, (b) the lack of any reasonable legal support for the claims made therein, (c) the diversion of staff resources from important work to a scheme which is little more than political grandstanding, and (d) the risk of the state being hit with sanctions for proceeding with a frivilous lawsuit.
For all this opt out talk I think there is one piece of unfinished business from the Bush administration that we Liberals need to complete; Halliburton will need to build all those prisons after all so we can incarcerate all the “civil disobedient” i.e. tax cheaters!
Build ’em now I see a need to lock up about 75 million criminals/terrorists/conservatives in our midst.
Don’t worry, you’ll get a public defender and a fair trial before we lock you up and throw away the key.
No, wait, GITMO has openings for people like lost.
Greroire = Gregoire = Gargoyle.
rhp: Your little parable about universal germs is a stealth argument for requiring a universal mandate.
In other words, you give us a variation on the theme that was discussed here earlier, the theme of “excess” deaths attributable to the lack of universal health insurance in the US.
We were told by Harvard that ~45,000 Americans die each year because they were ‘opted out’ of the health insurance system. We were told that we must have Obamacare to save those 45,000 per year.
But the Obamacare unoptable mandate doesn’t initialize until 2014, consigning almost 200,000 Americans to needless excess death.
Your allusion to unoptable germs falls down the same rabbit hole. If mandated Obamacare is a needed and necessary condition for saving us from microbial bugs, then how can you and the rest of you neo-fascist liberals justify the actual fact that you are giving pathogens four more years to cut their deadly swath?
You set the premises of the debate. You wrote back-loaded legislation that set back implementation until Obama is safely re-elected. Meanwhile, by your own arguments against the status quo, you perpetuate most of the status quo through four years and tens and thousands of needless deaths.
Have you no shame? Have you no decency? Have you no responsibility? Have you no liability?
So for all the blather still no answer to-
Poor and working poor will be criminalized at worst or made more poor by this bill. At peak it covers 80% (granted this is 80% more than it should) of premiums. So the family just scraping by will pay for the balance how exactly? And it is in the form of a tax credit not collectible until premiums have been paid for at least a year and taxes are filed.
Premiums will rise at a rate higher than the gang of thugs in Washington not done this. This is by the CBO on the assumption of a mandate to purchase insurance.
Middle class workers will be hit the hardest. Denied most of the assistance in their higher premiums they will be also paying a tax on the very policy they are forced to buy.
The wealthy won’t keep the costs and sigh. They will pass it on in consumer and other costs.
This is plainly illegal. A mandate to engage in commerce is clearly different from regulation of it, which is all the feds have a grant to do. Additionally insurance is a state issue out of federal bounds.
So answer any of these questions. Please. I’m just curious if the answers are in the drug in the kool-aid you’ve been drinking.
As for civil disobediencee it may be the only answer for real Americans who value their liberties. Remember Prohibitiion? You can’t force a significant enough number to do what they won’t do.
@80
Yes. At the point of a gun. That is the ultimate threat behind all regulation. Do this or we will force you to against your will. Sometimes this is necessary for socially and constitutionally mandated needs. Is it here?
McKenna just ended his statewide political career in Washington.
He’ll be regulated to Dino Rossi status in the next election cycle.
If there is one thing the “permanent Republican Majority” fools haven’t learned yet — Elections have consequences and they haven’t yet dealt with the consequences of the last two election cycles.
If we’re lucky, they’ll continue to ignore those consequences for two more election cycles. Then, the time will be ripe for a 3rd party to enter the national political landscape.
One that the disenfranchised Republicans can glom on to. One, that will split the Republican/conservative movement into oblivion.
President Obama and the Democrats killed Reaganism today.
HELL YES!! It’s a great victory for America!
lost @ 89:
The DEBATE is over, that’s why no one will answer your whining.
Stop it. You lost. Your beloved Reagan Revolution died today with the stroke of President Obama’s pen.
Get used to the idea of being irrelevant in public discourse. Your side had its chance, swayed the public opinion in 1980 and in 2010 it was firmly and permanently rejected by the will of the American People.
Deal with it — LOSER!
The corollary to civil disobedience is accepting the costs.
I will never voluntarily pay insurance I’m forced to. I do pay for it now, but will drop it on the day that law requires it.
As a result the government may fine me. I’ll refuse to pay. They may assess my real property. I’ll refuse to pay.
Should they get any of my money on this account it will be by force, and by force alone. It will never be by a voluntary act of mine. They can steal my home or other property to pay fines. But it will be theft. I will never grant it the illusion of lawfulness.
GBS: Go back a few clicks and a few threads. Have good stuff for you about Killer Karter deregulation.
Translation of 91
There is no answer, so I’ll pretend not to have to acknowledge that. This has less to do with my interlocutor, than fooling myself that everything is fine.
Good luck with that.
Try putting forth your ideas in the arena of public debate and sway the voters to your cause. Then, you’ll be following the Constitution and our Traditional American Values.
Oh, wait. You did. You Reagan Republicans got your ASSES handed to you today.
Deal with the rejection of your political core belief system by the MAJORITY of the American People.
GBS
“HELL YES!! It’s a great victory for America!”
With this edit your statement is true.
“HELL YES!! It’s a great victory for socialism allied with corporate interests, and a defeat for what made America great.”
Uh huh.
Your debate tactic seems to be repeating a lie ad infinitum until you believe it. This works for you, but actually makes no difference to your point.
Reagan was among the greatest of our presidents. Obama is a slick used car salesman well versed in lying who hates this country and what made it great.
And the spirit of the Reagan revolution was undiminished by the little man in a great place.
Thanks, but no thanks.
I prefer to look to the bright future America holds because Reaganism will NOT be in it.
That’s what matters.
You will be stuck in this moment, refusing to move to forward mentally, stuck in your crying, whining, complaining and pining for the “Good ol’ Days of the 1980’s”.
See ya, LOSER!
Uh huh.
Direction of Country
Polling Data
Poll Date Right Direction Wrong Track Spread
RCP Average 2/20 – 3/14 33.8 60.5 -26.7
NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl 3/11 – 3/14 33 59 -26
Rasmussen Reports 3/8 – 3/14 27 68 -41
Daily Kos/R2000 3/8 – 3/11 39 60 -21
Associated Press/GfK 3/3 – 3/8 38 56 -18
Ipsos/McClatchy 2/26 – 2/28 34 60 -26
Democracy Corps (D) 2/20 – 2/24 32 60 -28
See All Direction of Country Polling Data
RCP Poll Average
Direction of Country
33.8 Right Direction 60.5 Wrong Track
The Reagan Revolution was squashed today like the cockroach that it was.
Reagan Republicans went from “permanent republican majority” to Sarah Palin and Teabaggers whining and minority status for a long, long time to come.
I pity you fools. Naaahh, I don’t. You bozos got exactly what the American People willed — neutered.
Your balls are now in the political trash receptacle of history. Go find them!
Uh huh.
Troll Neutered by The People @ 100:
There is only one poll that matters. It happens every other November.
You lost.
Deal with your anger.
Pick new ideas – or not.
If you believe for a second that the American public is going to adopt the radical and wreckless ideals of Reagan again, well, you just believe that.
Would you like some milk and cookies? Would that make you feel better? Mabye story time and a nap?
George W. Bush will read My Pet Goat to you.
OKAAAAAAAY? You need your diaper changed? Is that rash on your bottom bothering you?
Move along. The adults who WON are talking now.
For everything, absolutely everything, GBS and Roger Maggot
Hey, Maggots, check out the current Atlantic Monthly:
Here’s The Atlantic link to Carter deregulation.
Don’t mention pet goats around Ekim Mike. Turns him on.
You and Roger just keep on gibbering your gibberish. We’ll leave a light on for you.
Loser @ 104:
Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzzz
Here’s the bottom line: IT DOESN’T MATTER. The public blames Reagan Republicans.
We WON.
You Lost.
Get – it – now?
Dubya Loser @ 105:
See my comments at 99.
Stop looking in the rearview mirror. Oh, sorry, you can’t.
You’re stuck here because the late 70’s is when the Reagan Revolution took root.
This morning, your revolution died. Not a natural death mind you, no it was deliberate. A deliberate act by a large majority of Americans who voted to reverse the damage wrought by Reagan Republicans.
Jimmy Carter; your punching bag that vaulted you to the top of the political world. The one you thought would never end.
President Barak Obama, he’s your Wellington. You have been summarily defeated.
Reagan is dead; literally, and now, figuratively.
Re 50: If there were a law that those who refuse to buy insurance could be denied any medical service that they don’t pay for up front, I’d be with you.
But that’s not the way it is. We are FORCED to treat you even as you wreck the health system with your ’emergencies’.
As long as the uninsured have their hands in my pocket by driving up the cost of insurance, then we have the right to make the assholes pay for it themselves.
You are a cheapskate spoiler gaming the system, not a freedom fighter. So, stuff a sock in it — .
Rob McKenna rocks. Sorry he isn’t the pawn of the Governors office.
Re 74
So where do I have any right to assume personal risk. By your concept I have no right to assume the risk of choosing, say, catastrophic care insurance. I might break my arm and need to pay for it at a rate not covered by my insurance, and might be short of cash at the time. (Unlikely series of events, but for the sake of argument…)
For me and my situation of being neither young nor old, healthy and needing minimal medical attention this makes sense for me. Full coverage insurance doesn’t’m iun and that’s why I don’t carry it. Should I suffer a massive heart attack, I’m insured. My premiums are very small on account of this, and as my situation changes my agent will change my policy and premiums accordingly. It’s far less expensive for me to go to my doctor once a year for a physical and my dentist twice and pay cash. It has the small risk that I’ll have to pay a bill larger than I had planned for.
In your view I don’t have the right to assume this risk. It may affect my fellow citizens in some unlikely scenario, so I don’t have that right.
Where exactly does this end? I had a bad relationship years ago. All my friends and family got sick of hearing about it. I was grumpy for a while. Should I not have had the right to involve myself in that relationship because it affected these other people? I bought a British car which requires a lot of money and time. Should I not be allowed to own this because it might in some farfetched scenario cause friends a problem?
See, the world isn’t fair. You folks can’t make it that way, no matter what you think. The poor will continue to get substandard care, because physicians and insurers know who is paying the bill. The wealthy will, in time, opt out and seek private care to avoid the socialist nightmare you want to install here. I’m sorry to have to break this to you. Properly it is the role of your parents to tell the facts of life, but there it is.
And do try answering the point. HCR isn’t. It is corporate welfare of little to no value to the average citizen.
Re 109
Nope. I pay my bills in cash, and in premiums for major medical costs. I just elect not to waste good money on being over-insured. I don’t owe the insurance companies a profitable pool. That’s their outlook. I owe myself the best fit for the money I spend.
Try again.
Re 108 ad nauseum
What the hell are you talking about?!
Ease up on the MJ this early in the day, friend. It’s making you think you’re making sense when you’re not.
Reagan revolution? What? This is about destroying American medical care and has nothing to do with Reagan, you idiot.
@111: There are still many risks available for you, grasshopper. You are free to take them.
Your catostophic policy example is nice, but has many hidden assumptions. Mostly, it does not aggregate well over all outcomes.
Your personal examples are pathetic, but overall you still don’t get it. It’s not about YOU. It’s about US. Much as you argue that it’s OK to “force” me to pay taxes for our costly overseas empire and the incredibly wasteful and socially destructive military we have assembled to maintain it. We kill innocents. By any measure that is a crime. I have the same “opt out” as you do: Civil disobedience. That’s why I say go for it. Like you said, a corollary of civil disobedience is the willingness to accept the penalties. As long as you don’t start throwing bombs, you may even have my grudging admiration.
I have many of the same criticisms of the bill that you do (FireDogLake.com, which see). It is a crappy bill. It is crappy because of the Republican Party and conservative Democrats. National health care is the only sensible solution. They have it, or a form of it in every other industrialized country, and you don’t hear whining about “taking our freedoms away”.
Then you chide me about the “facts of life”. Glibertarians don’t have any grasp of the “facts of life” beyond their own little world, and the screaming condescension has “project much?” written all over it. Hence the repeated references to your narcissism.
Overall grade: C-
@64 “How do you plan to protect the middle class from … premium rises …?”
Oh sure, like my premiums were going down under the Republican plan, which was to regulate nothing and do nothing.
re 111: Cash talks – Bullshit walks. Why should the people who pay for insurance front you the money for your hypothetical broken arm?
Personal responsibility? Yeah. I’ve heard that before.
@66 Hmmm, I thought I edited that comment, but the edit apparently failed. The comment should read, “Purple, like blood without oxygen.”
@114 “Overall grade: C-”
May I assume your mood of generosity is attributable to the afterglow of Sunday’s successful vote?
@113 “This is about destroying American medical care …”
Only in your hyperventilating imagination.
@80 “Now states are talking about rescinding the 17th amendment”
Hell, why not — cheap labor conservatives want to repeal the 13th so they may as well throw in the 17th while they’re at it.
I think the Constitution should be amended so that states get senate seats and presidential electors in proportion to their population. The current system is undemocratic.
Proud @ 114
Don’t you think we all should worship lost? He has made all the right decisions. He leads a perfect life. Everyone loves him. All that he has is due to his hard work, scruples, and goals. If everyone simply followed his example, there would be no poverty, no bad luck, no unavoidable collisions with reality.
People like him are thoroughly unaware of the notion of the social contract that produced this country. I’m throwing up a little in my mouth right now thinking about lost’s arrogance.
Re 114
Twice now I’ve tried hyperbole, and like irony it seems lost on the liberal mind. Oh well.
For your convenience, I know the personal stories were not relevant. That was the point. When the government starts deciding what risks I can and can’t take there isn’t a rational stopping point.
For the rest you actually made my point. My situation “does not aggregate well over all outcomes.” That’s why I want the freedom to decide the right approach, rather than have it decided for me by an uninterested career government employee.
“National health care is the only sensible solution. They have it, or a form of it in every other industrialized country, and you don’t hear whining about “taking our freedoms away”.” No, you usually don’t after libery is irrevocably gone. Because every other industrialized country has crappy medical care is no good reason for us to do so as well.
Re 122
Go to hell.
I did work hard for what I’ve earned. I did sacrifice and take my lumps and bad luck. You and the rest of the socialists have no right it.
As for the social contract I’ve read it. It nowhere asks for one man to sacrifice out of reason to others. It always talks about the fine balance between what we give up in personal freedom to gain personal security. Why would I give up everything I worked for so that a lazy fool can take it?
124
You just don’t have a clue. I, too, have worked my ass off all my life. I have worked for wages or for myself since I was 10, did well in school, have never gotten on the wrong side of the law, currently employ people (for whom I’m having trouble figuring out how the hell to keep covering their health insurance premiums). You have nothing on me when it comes to “earning.” So, don’t give me any of your horseshit about “earning” a damned thing. You got lucky. One thing I’ve learned as the decades have passed is that a lot of bad things happen to people who don’t deserve them and a lot of good things happen to people who don’t deserve them. You have a rigid worldview that indicates you can’t recognize the possibility that your good fortune may have some luck involved.
lost, go fuck yourself. Your arrogance is really over the top.
Yes, I was very lucky to have been born to poor parents who emphasized independence and education as a way out of poverty.
I was very lucky to have been taught that hard work always pays off and when it doesn’t find an employer who rewards it.
I was very lucky to have been taught that bad luck is just that. It doesn’t define you or limit you, it just sets you back a bit.
I was very lucky to have earned respect in my field from people I respect by applying those taught lessons over a span of years.
I neither wrote nor intended disrespect for anyone else who has done the same. You read that into what I wrote.
But I bet you don’t encourage the kind of thriftlessness you advocate in government in your children. I bet you ask them to make tough choices commensurate with their ages and accept the consequences of those choices. Why then is it okay for Washington to pass a bad bill that moves the ball backward at great expense? Just because a Democrat signed it?
If premiums are your concern talk to anyone in Europe who owns a business and ask what an employee costs them in that workers paradise. Look at the CBO forecast on premium rises at a greater rate than without mandatory insurance.
Call me arrogant. Dislke me. That’s your outlook. But ask me to buy into a bad philosophy? No, thanks.
“Don’t you think we all should worship lost?”
Hardly. His world view is so self referential that fawning acolytes would not be noticed by him.
@123: Gibberish. Conserfartives wouldn’t know irony if they were led to it by the Hand of God.
@127
That’s the perfect term for it.
I appreciate the criticism. It’s difficult to see personal failings from within, and friends are often too polite to tell you. Though my wife hasn’t been shy about it…
Folks who are interested in ad hominem attacks to deflect from their repeated failures to address real arguments will be much more honest and forthcoming about these. In this regard you’ve all been very helpful.
Thanks.
lost,
You are truly lost. You claim to have lived some time and to have learned some lessons. You may recall that on past threads, I suggested that I thought you had something to say, unlike our usual trolls. I take that back. You don’t have anything to say. You are one of those people who simply say, “I got mine, so fuck you.” Please don’t claim to be a patriot, lost. You could care less about anyone else, unless they think like you.
Proud,
I respect your right to think as you like about me personally. I won’t lie and say the opinion of someone I don’t know matter a great deal to me, but respect your right to them anyway.
I respect your right to question my patriotism. Doesn’t mean I’ll engage in a witless ‘mine is bigger than yours’ debate on the matter, though. On your better days you realize that love of ones’ country can take many forms, whether you agree with them or not, but leave that alone.
As for your conclusion most of the people who actually know me would disagree, but again, if it makes you feel better to think that way, be my guest.
The law is bad law. It will hurt the poor and middle classes financially, turning some into criminals by lack of choice. I’ve repeated many times why, and won’t waste your time now. It’s either unconstitutional or in violation of the spirit of our founding document, which ought to be the same thing. Progressives and conservatives ought to be in agreement that while health care reform is needed bad law that worsens the situation isn’t. But partisan politics prevailed. Godd luck, you, I and the rest of the country will need it every time we go to the doctor now.
lost,
Your last paragraph is pure Glenn Beck. I think I know a little bit about the Constitution, and respect it a great deal, given that my profession must always pay attention to its limitations. On the other hand, I also think we must pay attention to the Constitution’s aspirations. The healthcare bill just signed leads in the direction of our aspirations. In the direction of the best of the American spirit. And, that makes me feel pretty good. I won. You won. We all won with our president’s signature on that bill today (even if you don’t recognize your victory).
@81
Shh… The Opt out plan is our stealth plan to bankrupt the tea-baggers.
@133
Perfect!
Losty sez: “I won’t lie and say the opinion of someone I don’t know matter a great deal to me…”
A real grown up wouldn’t write such drivel.
re 133
I’m not sure I understand the aspirations of the framers in the same way you do, but that is what democracy is all about.
I am sure that no-one has answered a single point about higher insurance premiums caused by this law, taxation of a stressed middle class directed by this law, and the impact on the poor, effectively making them criminal. I find this interesting, but am tired of trying to show that the sky is blue to people who won’t look up.
Hopefully the attorneys general will prevail in the true spirit of the Constitution.
Either way democracy in action, while messy, is an inspiring thing to watch. Even when it acts poorly, it is still the will of the people however shortsighted, and that is worth something.
Re 136
Have a nice day.
“I am sure that no-one has answered a single point about higher insurance premiums caused by this law”
Horseshit. Our company’s premiums just went up another 17% and it took tacking on another $500 to the deductible to hold the increase down. These increases in the costs of health care are unsustainable and the right has no answers, just deflection, obstruction, delusional rhetoric, and the pushing of the “let’s have a violent revolution” buttons of teabagging fools.
RE 138
They aren’t my numbers Steve. The CBO projected rises in premiums higher than if nothing were done. And the statement is factual, if you follow the threads.
I’m far from saying the situation doesn’t need changed. This change is stupid.