I’ve been following a sad story out of Las Vegas this week. A man by the name of Erik Scott, a 38-year-old (some articles say 39) highly-respected West Point graduate and businessman, was gunned down by police outside a suburban Costco.
It appears to have started when Scott, who has a concealed weapons permit, was taking metal water bottles out of their packaging to see if they’d fit in his cooler. After a store employee confronted him about taking merchandise out of the packaging and noticed his gun, he called 911 and the store was evacuated. Police arrived at the store as it was being evacuated and shot Scott to death while yelling at him to drop his weapon.
There’s a very wide discrepancy between what the police are saying, what witnesses are saying (including Scott’s girlfriend), and what people who know Scott are capable of believing. The police claim that Scott was acting erratically in the store and then pointed his weapon at them. But a number of witnesses say that Scott never pulled his weapon and that the police just started shooting as they yelled commands. Las Vegas police are withholding the surveillance video and the 911 recordings until September, after the coroner’s inquest.
Proponents of gun permits are quick to argue that carrying a gun makes you safer. But this incident highlights an important counterargument to that. Sometimes carrying a gun makes you a target as well. Anyone who has read my thoughts on this subject know that I’m not some radical gun control proponent. In fact, I was happy to see the Supreme Court rule that Chicago’s gun ban was unconstitutional. Too often, cities with a lot of crime use gun bans as feel-good fixes that don’t actually address the underlying causes of violence within their communities.
But in this incident, Scott likely became a victim because the gun he was carrying made him appear to be a threat. Even if Scott did absolutely nothing wrong (and from what I’ve read so far, that’s likely true), his not-quite-concealed weapon was likely the reason he ended up the victim of trigger-happy cops. I’m still comfortable with the idea of registered citizens having the ability to carry guns in public, but the added security of doing so is not without its risks.
taze me bro?
IMHO, handguns are a magnet for evil. They are really only designed to do one thing and that is kill another human being.
Hmmm… excessive police force… smells fishy to Puddy. Another of these wonderful stories from a DUMMOCRAPTIC city lead by a DUMMOCRAPTIC mayor. Watch for the coverup!
Puddy,
Have you ever shot a handgun? Aiming the little bastards is remarkably difficult. In the dark, I couldn’t hit my nose if the thing was pointed in my direction. I know guns. I don’t oppose them politically. I do think the 2nd Amendment should take a backseat to the 1st, 4th, 7th, etc.
Ah, the War on Terrah®.
Summary Public executions are becoming the norm. Oakland BART police, Oregon, Texas, Florida, New York, Nevada. Chicago. Every city, every county, every state. Even here in Seattle.
The police have absolute personal discretion to shoot you or beat you to death if they choose to. They have the final authority whether you live or die when interacting with them. They are often rewarded after killing someone with a week or so of vacation time, and medals of valor.
The largest street gang in America. Watch this, its about an hour long.
This is the normal way the “police” do business. They aren’t in the law enforcement business, they are in the immediate compliance business. Obey the police, or die. Even if they are in the act of committing a crime themselves.
Never talk to the police, and don’t ever call them unless you are willing to be subjected to their will, even if they have a hangover, or are taking a steroid cycle and are having a bad day. They can lie on the Stand under oath, manufacture evidence, and can do anything they want once they take that oath and don the uniform. There is no law that can be enforced against them, and no prosecutor in the Nation willing to investigate or prosecute a crime committed by a police officer when that officer is working in uniform.
In a few weeks, hopefully, you will start seeing a new scandal with the Seattle Police that will be (as usual) swept under the rug and allowed to blow over without anything being changed or anyone losing their cop job. Suffice to say there are cops in this town working the Pioneer Square beat, who are entering clubs and sexually harassing women, instigating conflicts and threatening their companions with arrest when they try to interfere. It is more than one, it is several, and they are all working to cover each other. There isn’t a goddamn thing you or anyone can do about it.
NEVER trust a police officer.
Ehh, shouldn’t post before coffee. Could someone close that link for me?
Yes, Proud Leftist at a range…
1) 38 snubnose – very little kick
2) 9MM – interesting feel
3) 44 Magnum – jerked my hand up 2 feet off the target the first time Puddy shot one…
Harry Callahan: I know what you’re thinking. “Did he fire six shots or only five?” Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you’ve got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
Bank Robber: Hey, I gots to know.
But what does that have to do with the man being permanently punked by some trigger happy Po Po 5-0? If it comes out the man never moved his hand toward the gun will the fools get manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or skate?
Seattle Police… members of another DUMMOCRAPT led city!
@6
Done.
@3
Another of these wonderful stories from a DUMMOCRAPTIC city lead by a DUMMOCRAPTIC mayor.
Las Vegas’ mayor is an Independent, moron. And anyone who follows these stories (both left and right) can easily tell you that it’s not a partisan one. Excessive force by police happens everywhere, not just in Democratic cities. Do you think the rural Georgia county where Jonathan Ayers was shot is run by Democrats? Or the George Bureau of Investigation itself?
@1
I think in most cases, a taser would have been used if the police thought the person they were after was unarmed.
Thankewz.
@7
If it comes out the man never moved his hand toward the gun will the fools get manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or skate?
Another interesting aspect of this story that I failed to mention in the original post is that Scott’s father is a nationally-known aviation journalist who’s well-connected with the military. These officers might be in a lot more trouble than most others who end up in this situation.
@11
And that’s the crux of the problem right there. There is no justice when a cop does wrong, without public outcry or political connections.
I quit calling 911 when the Seattle Police, in no uncertain terms ordered me to, even though there were three major fires (two of them fatal) in the old trailer park next door. Even though the drunks across the street were smashing bottles on the pavement, even when I was burglarized and my crappy old TV taken and a big pack of steaks was stolen right out of the fridge.
Cops don’t want good citizens, they want obedient ones. They want compliant ones. They don’t want to be bothered to actually do their jobs unless forced to. 911 calls obligate them to do so.
They want what the cops in Mexico and South America have, that is, total dominance and discretion without scrutiny or legal obligations.
Too many poorly trained cops on the streets but part of this is due to the militarization of the police. As someone who has shot more than one weapon and dealt with similar situations this probably was an unnecessary death.
One of the dangers of carrying a gun is that someone else might decide to take it from you. An untrained person is far more likely to lose his gun to his assailant than he is to be able to use it successfully to defend himself. And by training, I don’t mean firing at targets on a range. You need the type of training which tells you when to pull your gun and fire, and when not to.
As my old scoutmaster used to say: “Don’t carry a gun unless you are prepared to pull it out of it’s holster. Don’t pull a gun out of the holster unless you are about to fire it. Don’t fire a gun unless you intend to kill. Otherwise, just keep the gun at home”.
I’m wondering if, with several cops around him, the guy was being given conflicting orders.
For example, some will shout “drop the gun, NOW”, others will shout “freeze, or I’ll shoot”, and yet others shouting “get on the ground, NOW!”. Under those circumstances, anything he does is wrong. If the gun is in a holster on his belt, and he moves to take it out so he can drop it, he then gets gunned down for “going for his weapon”. Video footage, without good audio, won’t help clarify that point.
The officers, having a chance to review the footage before testifying, can reach a concensus about what he was being ordered to do. And even patrol car footage with audio would only disclose orders being given by the officer(s) closest to the car, not what the shooting victim heard.
Oh, and we got a pretty good preview of what happens when a policeman is prosecuted for shooting an unarmed civilian in Everett recently. An unarmed drunk driver was fatally shot several times while parked in his car in a restaurant/bar parking lot. Even the other cop who was responding said the shooting was totally unjustified – the officer just got angry and frustrated because the drunk wasn’t turning off the car an exiting his vehicle. The cop tried to argue that the drunk driver tried to run him over, but all witnesses disputed this (including the other responding cop). The prosecutor tried to prosecute, but the jury wouldn’t convict, despite rather overwhelming evidence. The jury found the officer not guilty of homicide, while at the same time found that he wasn’t acting in self defense.
The end result is that the officer has to pay his own attorneys fees (since he wasn’t found to have acted in self defense), but the city now has to defend a multi-million dollar lawsuit by the dead man’s family.
Everett Herald Article
What Lee isn’t telling you ….
From the Las Vegas Review Journal …
“Scott possessed a concealed weapons permit, and he was carrying two guns with him while he shopped in the store on Saturday. He caused a disturbance in the store that prompted employees to call the police.
When officers arrived, store employees ordered customers to evacuate the building. Three officers were waiting for Scott when he exited. They ordered him to drop to the ground. For whatever reason, Scott did not do so. Instead, some witnesses say he appeared to reach for one of his guns.”
BTW, can anyone tell me why Lee doesn’t seem to write posts stating his concerns when criminals shoot cops?
@16
The editorial you’re quoting is here. Note that it is not a reported piece, but an editorial, and it was written by someone who LVRJ pointed out has a relative who’s a Metro Police officer.
I’ve linked to five different articles (including a nice piece of investigative journalism from the LVRJ) that all report that witnesses don’t agree with the police story. I have no doubt that their characterizations of what happened are more accurate than Schumacher’s. In fact, I think Schumacher’s suggestion that this might have been a “suicide by cop” is borderline nuts.
I follow these cases a lot because I believe in holding our public-serving institutions accountable when they fail us (which is why I tend to write about police misconduct, but don’t write about criminals shooting cops, even though I’m appalled whenever it happens). There’s almost always something like this in the local media afterwards – an editorial from a local columnist who does whatever possible to excuse what the officers did. You’ve found that column for this case. Congrats. Now if you want to impress me, you can find all the ways in which it contradicts all the other reports and explain to me how this one guy knows all the facts, while all the other reporters got it wrong.
Why is that most of the population refuses to be comforted by the sight of a man with a gun?
A little off subject but here’s another one.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/vid.....cnn?hpt=C2
reasoning worthy of a tea bagger
1. guns protect
against what?
Other than on TV or in movies, I have yet to hear a story where an armed civilian was able to shoot first in her own defense. Are there any data showing that folks wi guns in their homes are less likely to bve robbed?
2. cops must be guilty
Another LEGO award for this. Lee’s fanatacism makes it difficult to take any news he posts seriously. MJ=good cops and catholics=bad is not a very trustworthy platform for argument.
Personally, I believe cops ALSO .. or even especially .. have the well worn right to be considered innocent till proven guilty.
3. cops vs guns
anyone want to bet which provides more safety for citizens?
I assume Lee would not like to disarm the cops?
yes, we need to get rid of guns. just like in china, so when we want to oppress our own citizens we can run them over with tanks while they throw rocks.
@20
reasoning worthy of a tea bagger
This should be fun.
1. guns protect
against what?
Um, a lot of things. Being robbed for one. In fact, I was in Omaha about 3 months ago, and while I was there, there was an interesting news story where an armed man trying to rob a convenience store was shot and killed by a customer in the store who was carrying a concealed weapon. Ignoring the fact that guns can occasionally protect you is just as ignorant as ignoring the risks involved in owning one.
Yes, there are certainly statistics that show that you’re more likely to be the victim of your own gun than to have it protect you, but it is possible for it to protect you in certain situations. And I also contend that an intelligent and responsible gun owner is more likely to have it protect them. That statistic is skewed by the large numbers of dumb gun owners we have in this country.
2. cops must be guilty
I have trouble believing the story from the cops in this case. When witnesses are coming forward to contradict the official story from the police, then something is definitely not right.
Personally, I believe cops ALSO .. or even especially .. have the well worn right to be considered innocent till proven guilty.
So do I. Just because I’m not buying a story doesn’t mean I’m proclaiming certainty of guilt. We’ll see how this plays out.
3. cops vs guns
anyone want to bet which provides more safety for citizens?
I assume Lee would not like to disarm the cops?
I think that police officers are far more militarized than they need to be. That’s not to say that they should have their guns taken away, but it means that there are a growing number of situations across the country where they approach situations with a military mindset when the situation doesn’t call for such a violent or aggressive response. This appears to be one of those cases.
@ 20 SJ comments; “Other than on TV or in movies, I have yet to hear a story where an armed civilian was able to shoot first in her own defense. Are there any data showing that folks wi guns in their homes are less likely to bve robbed?”
SJ there is a lot of research on this issue and yes guns do protect people and there are news reports. You can find the numbers if you do the research.
@20
jews always want to disarm citizens. they think it protects them from another holocost as long as they have control of the government. in this country they do, but look what happened in russia. with the help of bill clinton and the world jewish congress, boris yeltsin gave the country away to the jewish oligarchs. but when the russian people had enough, putin had them all arrested. you will never get the 200 million guns in this country confiscated, so why piss off all the good ‘ol boys who are goiung to arrest every fucking one of you if this country crashes.
Lee, I think the bigger issue here is the carte blanche that society gives cops to use deadly force. You don’t need to carry a gun to get killed by police; having a TV remote control in your hand is enough to provoke them to use deadly force.
Cops are human, and as in all human aggregations, some are more responsible and conscientious than others. Sadly, there are a few rogue cops and even outright criminal cops in nearly every big department.
Yet, police internal investigation units routinely whitewash police wrongdoing. Police unions routinely defend the actions of rogue cops who break laws and violate citizens’ rights. Prosecutors often refuse to charge, and juries almost universally refuse to convict, in cases of police criminality.
The police have a free hand to do anything to anybody, and they know it. It’s not surprising, therefore, that they often. This news story isn’t an isolated incident. It’s typical of what happens around the country all too frequently. Just last week, six NOLA police officers (or former officers) were charged with capital murder for their actions in the Katrina disaster — when they were supposed to be helping victims. What they allegedly did instead hardly upheld the police motto, “To serve and protect.”
Society has to get off the notion that cops are gods. They’re human, like the rest of us, and some are good and some not so good. They should be held accountable, just like other people. When they behave like criminals, they should be treated like criminals.
@25
You’ve left a lot of snarky comments at this site over the years, but I have to admit, I appreciate the thoughtful ones like this the most.
@15
Thanks for the link. I had not seen that story.
@24
If you and SJ started a blog where SJ would make his typical incoherent arguments and then you would explain how his babbling fits into your theories of secret cabals of Jews taking over the world, it would be the funniest blog in the history of the internet.
@20
http://www.fox23.com/news/loca.....TbEUA.cspx
Personnally, I like most cops I’ve met. I even sent in a letter to the SPD to commend a copy who gave me a traffic ticket – he was so courteous it made an impression on me. If a police officer was in trouble while confronting a criminal, I would risk my own life to assist him.
But there are a few which have some personality issues. Some are inwardly insecure, and use their gun and their badge to compensate. Some have control issues, and they believe being a police officer gives them the authority to control the lives of every citizen with which they have contact. Some want to be admired as heroes, and are willing to create a “crisis” so they can play that role. Some are just bullies.
Among themselves, the majority of the police officers treat the handful of bad officers with disdain.
But the problem remains is that when criticized from outside the ranks, the police almost always close ranks and defend one another. They strongly resist any attempts to have non-police in any position to pass judgement on their actions. The result is that these bad eggs seldom have to account for their actions. The insular nature of police investigations into their own officers tends to promote distrust among the citizens. Ironically, the police officer who will probably suffer the most professionaly with respect to the shooting incident in Everett will be the one who testified against the officer who did the shooting – he will probably find his that his colleagues will isolate him for not supporting “one of their own?.
I really wish we could simply find an effective and fair system for dealing with the occassional bad cop, as well as for handling a copy which is generally good but exercises poor judgement in an isolated case. So far, internal review investigatons, coroner’s inquests, and prosecution and jury trials haven’t had much impact.
@28
Rhp, I think you capture the dynamics perfectly. I don’t know if there’s an easy fix to the problem, but I generally think that Seattle has a good police department because we care a lot about oversight here. If a community is critical but fair with its officers, the tendency to circle the wagons over anyone who is accused of wrongdoing will wane a bit. I honestly don’t believe that in many other major American cities, the officer who roughed up that 15-year-old girl in a holding cell (Schene?) would have faced any consequences.
“I honestly don’t believe that in many other major American cities, the officer who roughed up that 15-year-old girl in a holding cell (Schene?) would have faced any consequences.”
True. In most communities, the police, politicians, and a vocal part of the community would argue that she wouldn’t have been in the jail cell if she wasn’t already guilty of some offense, and therefore she deserved whatever thrashing she received.
But then as far as consequences to, despite the best efforts of the prosecutors, you have two hung juries, and I believe the prosecutor has decided not to try for a third trial. The guy might not have a career left in any of the local police departments here, but other than that he hasn’t received any actual punishment.
While not a death penalty offense, there really is something special-snowflake about removing merchandise from its packaging and throwing stuff on the floor. How inconsiderate and obnoxious to all the other shoppers and to the people that work there and have to clean up your mess. Especially since the dimensions are probably printed on the box.
But the point is clear – if he hadn’t been acting like a jerk, if he had not had a concealed weapon, if the employee had not seen said weapon and acted appropriately (you have a person acting strangely who is carrying a weapon, you need to act as if they are a crazy shooter to CYA) and if the police had not shot him, he wouldn’t be dead.
fuck da police!!!
would be my usaul response to this and kinda is but if dude is going to carry gun he is going to be shot at by the pigs when they are called in.
i would like to read one day where dude with CWP and packing runs into another dude with CWP and packing and both think the other is trouble and we get a shoot-out at the costco corall.
that would be cool
@7 Harry Callahan: “A man’s gotta know his limitations…”
Any cop that can’t handle a citizen with a weapon should turn in his/her badge. I have been in a car full of weapons pulled over by a cop. Some of us were packing heat too. He dealt with it just fine (except needing to be corrected on a matter of law). He handed me back my sidearm and off we went. The net result is I got a nickname….Drool due to the cop mispronouncing my given name.
GREAT STORY!!
One less gun-toting, NRA member who would’ve voted for Sharon Angle.
Folks, what’s the problem??
None.
This Bud’s for you MR. “men in blue who shoot gun-toting conservatives first and destory incriminating videotapes later!!” Guy
U-S-A
U-S-A
U-S-A
Promote those cops to dectectives. NOW!
Fuck yeah America!
Second Amendment remedy in ACTION!
Becareful what you wish for BEE-OTCH cuz you just got served 9mm Glock style.
Lee wrote:
Yep, cops went home, gun-toting, NRA member, conservative voting A-Hole went to the morgue.
Cops are safer. And, that’s who I want to be safer, not Captain Ass HOLE who thinks he really needs to carry a gun to buy bulk bananas at Costco.
And what if it turns out he was a NRA DUMMOCRAPT who packed GBS? One less fool for Scary Reid.
From Wikipedia – “Mayor Goodman is an Independent and a former member of the Democratic Party” Lee. This fool still thinks like you a DUMMOCRAPT. He recently changed to Independent. Reminds Puddy of that old “independent” Bernie Sanders, Idiot from Vermont. Always votes with DUMMOCRAPTS!
“Goodman briefly entertained challenging presidential son Jack Carter for the Democratic nomination to run against incumbent Republican U.S. Senator John Ensign in 2006”. Didn’t say he was running as an independent.
“Reminds Puddy of that old”
Reminds me of that old Dummocraptic, Ronald Reagan. No wonder he raised taxes on Puddy’s sorry ass.
RR @ 25, rhp @ 28
re: a few bad apples
This is a governance problem.
When does, if ever, self-regulation work?
AMA, bar assoc, oil companies, teacher’s unions, commercial fishermen, timber corps, mining corps, airlines, Congress, Wall Street, Catholic church, etc.
I can’t think of any examples of a group which is effective at self-regulation.
Groups are by definition good at protecting “self” from “non-self”. Otherwise they wouldn’t be a group to begin with.
Actually, no, I did think of one example: scientists.
Through the peer review process, the truth eventually comes out.
Lee @ 26
It’s not that funny now. Even with assists from Puddy and Mr Cynical.
David @ 31
So now it’s open season on jerks. Nice.
Looks like I’m in trouble. I hope the cops don’t read teh blogz.
@40
I’m not sure Puddy understands what the word “former” means.
@41
LOL… I grew up around commercial fishermen, definitely not a self regulating group.
Oh yes, Lee Puddy understands “former” It’s Goodman still practices the same political actions well known in DUMMOCRAPT circles.
And Steve Steve Steve, Reagan completely threw off his old DUMMOCRAPT ways and became a Republican, not an Independent and still act like a DUMMOCRAPT like Goodman. Somehow facts don’t seem to penetrate that granite encased skull since your March binge drinking on your well known Steve Stupid Solution. It must have been a real good batch! You’ve fallen past the help of man’s most powerful meds!
The late Charlton Heston answered that one long ago rhp6033!
Yeah, remember the cop recently killed in Federal Way lost his gun to a crazed whitey who shot him?
@46 yo mama
Such dumbfuck comments will get you nowhere, Puddy, except maybe on the golden path to another Golden Goat. heh- Reagan. He raised your taxes and ran massive deficits and then went and got drunk with that communist Tip O’Neill. heh- Reagan. Missles for dead nuns. Oh, that’s right, you made a big deal last week about Catholics being perverts. Hell, your mind is so ugly, Puddy, I bet you gave Reagan points whenever a nun was murdered.
#41 Jason,
I know of one group that has self regulated well. The Republican Party has regulated out moderates and installed nutbags with great efficiency.
Lee
Sorry that you have trouble understanding anything more complex than Fox. I will make an effort to write simplistically for you.
@51
What on earth is that a response to? I left a very lengthy rebuttal of your previous comment. Are you going to respond to that, or are you just going to pretend something else happened in this thread?
Yes there are no meds known to man for Steve Steve Steve’s latest condition of idiotic lunacy!
Somehow the full knowledge of the US Constitution seems to fail Steve Steve Steve like it did with Rachel Maddow.
Leftys smoke weed, crazy, hippy, no goods. fire the cops, they do this kind of work because they are lazy, I know I retired from it 20 yrs ago, but, we did not abuse or kill people. The new breed is product of the liberals. Take their guns and badges, brimg in new product new leader ship. Liberals are a seed of evil, trying to clutch all of you in their web. Be sober when you vote. Get rid of the evil liberals. They are spin off of the Old England who swore they would get even for us wining the revolution in 1776. Liberals will kill to get their way, unitl they get killed back. Survival of the fittest Good will prevail over evil, hang on to that.