What David Waldman says:
Maybe I’m just not sufficiently wonky on the health care subject, and after all, this isn’t likely to happen to me right away, because I have insurance through my wife that I’m pretty sure we’re keeping as long as we can. But I don’t get how you can possibly hand me a health care bill with an individual mandate and no public option. If I’m uninsured or poorly insured, and the answer coming out of Congress is that I now have to buy crappy insurance from some private company that has no plan to actually help me pay for my health care without raking me over the coals, then I’ve gone into this fight an ardent supporter of strong reform, and come out a teabagger.
You’re going to force me to pay an insurance company for shit insurance that as a free market actor I decided not to even try to buy?
And the insurance companies that paid for organizing the clown shows are just drooling.
This is it to a T. Why force me to buy crap that is so bad I didn’t want it in a free market? That’s not what we want as a country.
Re-read this part–
First it begs the question..
WHY ARE YOU UNINSURED OR POORLY INSURED??
1) What is your annual income?
2) Let’s review your discretionary spending…and NO latte’s are not a necessity…nor is a cellphone…nor is cable TV…nor is high-speed internet access. Please note that 17.5 MILLION of the so-called uninsured make over $50,000/yr.
3) Are you an illegal alien? If so, who gives a shit if you uninsured!!
4) Are you already eligible for some form of free health care??
5) Are you a fat f*ck? What is your diet and exercise program??
6) Do you drink too much, smoke dope or cigs or do other drugs?
This David Waldman sounds like a real FREELOADER to me!! Although I agree that no one should be forced to buy Health Insurance.
Insurance is a RISK MANAGEMENT tool.
Many folks go without any coverage because they are healthy & take care of themselves and CHOOSE to self-insure.
Others buy Major Medical (over say $5,000 annual deduction) to protect themselves against a big hit.
Insurance is a RISK MANAGEMENT tool!!
Cynical: Health Insurance in destroying this country. Manufacturers cannot compete in the world market where every other civilized and even some uncivilized countries provide universal health care.
Millions of bankruptcies occur every year due to health care costs.
My insurance plus deductibles and co-pays for my family costs me & my company about $20,000 per year. You tell me how many families grossing $50,000 – $100,000 per hear can afford $20,000 for health care?
This is not sustainable, and has to be fixed. Complaining about free-loaders isn’t useful.
Toyota is closing its Prius plant in California to build them in Canada. Why? Health care costs.
The fact is, public insurance is MORE efficient than private. This is not in dispute. Any way it can be measured in cost and outcome. Public health care is cheaper and delivers better results. This is a fact.
If we are going to be viable economically as a country, and have anything resembling a middle class, we have to control health care costs which have gone from 7% to 15% of GDP in the last 3 decades.
Public insurance is the only way to do this. Period.
hey jon, who paid for the protests of whole foods?
@3 Forget it, Sarge. He’s not listening.
Take a cue from Barney Frank and go talk to your dining room table.
The really absurd part of Cyn’s latest mental vomit is that he’s demanding, just for the sake of his own argment, a bunch of personal information about someone that shouldn’t be his or anyone else’s business. Then he’ll turn around and holler about how the big eeeeeevil government should be staying out of peoples’ lives.
@3 well if you say so….
BTW. There aren’t any other industrialized countries like the United States…GDP, Economy, Military, etc etc etc….
There are all kinds of anecdotal examples of how we could pay for something like this….There is deep division on exactly how that should be done….
The fact that Healthcare reform was attempted to be rushed and slammed down the throats of Americans without debate or discussion is the fuel driving the protests from the right….
Now, debate on how we reform healthcare is good and should be done..
I’d like to know why we have to have employer based health insurance…Why can’t insurance companies sell and compete with the 1000’s of organizations and membership groups outside of employers? Seems that competition and a larger market segment would drive down costs…
By the way, we are FORCED to buy auto insurance, yet there is no public option….
Just sayin. (not the best example, I know)
This isn’t productive. We’re not arguing about the actual details of this health bill(s)…like how much it will costs, best ways to pay for it, best regulation reforms, etc. It’s just people screaming Nazi, socialist, or “we’re #1”. Since the debate is dead (never happened) just shove the bill through however and end this. Then in the out years it can (and will) be modified by further legislation as things are found that don’t work right. This isn’t a MAGIC one time only bill. It will change and be modified. The Republicans WILL be in the White House and in control of Congress again sometime, it ALWAYS goes back and forth. So they’re free to kill it then.
Will they? Unlikely. Take Medcare. It was shoved down the Republicans throat by Democrats too, and many Republicans would still love to kill it as a big socialized welfare program. But the public Republican party position? Defend Medicare at all costs and try to scare seniors by claiming Obama will “cut” it. Michael Steele just released their “Health Care Bill of Rights for Seniors”. It says Medicare should be ‘defended’ and not cut.
So after having Medicare forced on them despite their attempts to kill it, NOW the Republicans are kissing ASS to the seniors and defending the very program they tried to prevent to begin with!!! ROTFLMAO. Why doesn’t Steele go on TV and remind seniors the Republicans don’t want Medicare to exist and tried to prevent it from coming into being, instead of being whores and “pretending” they’re protecting seniors from evil Democrat Medicare cuts. LOL. TOO CUTE!
So once this health care bill passes, 10 years from now whoever has Steele’s job in the Republican party will be accusing Democrats of trying to ‘reduce’ some benefit of this health care bill and trying to take credit as if it was their idea they fought for the entire time. LOL LOL LOL LOL
The Republicans fought social security, Medicare, paid vacations, child labor laws, and on and on…and NOW want to pretend they’re “protecting” cuts on those programs! PRICELESS!
sarge spew:
If it’s such an unchallengable “fact”…cite your sources.
Also, explain what is happening in Canada.
The “outcome” side is sucking…bad.
I don’t agree it is as clear-cut as you say.
Yes, our Health Care system needs to be reformed starting with Tort Reform and Fraud Detection.
Also, give us some details on the $20,000 per year you & your company pay for Health Insurance. Do you have major illnesses?
The devil is always in the detail when I hear these numbers sarge.
Without a more detailed explanation and info…it is pretty empty.
5. ArtFart spews:
This is where you lose the argument ArtFart.
You want the government to blindly pay for folks Health Care with ZERO personal responsibility on their part in choices they make.
Don’t think that will sell.
A lot of personal information????
Nice try to deflect…but health is personal, often the result of poor choices that others shouldn’t be burdened with.
The questions I asked are relevant.
AF wants to ram Socialized Medicine thru without a proper vetting of who is covered, at what level, what is THEIR PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY etc.
It won’t fly AF.
Indeed, you might as well talk to the dining room table:
http://imgur.com/xUrtW.jpg
@9 “government blindly…pay for folks Health Care with ZERO personal responsibility on their part in choices they make”
Er…how about
1) The government isn’t paying for it, anymore than my private insurance is paying for it. I pay premiums to my insurance company now, and I’d pay taxes/premiums for the public option plan too. Difference?
2) No responsibility? How does that figure? Whether my insurance is Blue Cross or ‘Gov Plan X’ how does that matter? America has NO public health care option now, and we’re the fattest and one of the most unhealthy nations now. How has the private sector worked to make us responsible?
“health is personal, often the result of poor choices” – This is the old witch craft Republican idea that if you get sick you deserved it. Hey idiot, we’re ALL going to get sick and die. It’s the human condition. Your last 3 years, whether you’re 25 or 95 will be where you use most of your health care costs. Good ‘responsible’ Republicans go to the hospital and die just as often as everyone else. Rush Limbaugh, being fat and a drug addict, is sure going to soak his insurance company with costs, that will have to be spread to the users who use less health care (like me). Thanks Rush!
P.S. Take a breath crazy people. Neither the private insurance companies nor the government will be perfect. Ever. They’re systems created by people, run by people. Get over it. This fantasy that one is perfect and the is evil (either way) is nonsense. They’re NOT that different. Health care in Canada for example isn’t THAT different from the U.S. (some differences, better and worse). Drive to Vancouver. They still have hospitals, doctors, and a healthy society (no death panels or stacks of dead bodies rotting in the streets in front of Starbucks), and they haven’t gone bankrupt (for health care) yet. Lets get real.
Mr. Cynical @ 2
Since you asked…
Eventful medical history.
Aplastic anemia cured with a bone marrow transplant, chronic graft versus host disease, shingles, whooping cough (as an adult), blocked intestine, spinal meningitis, hypertension / high blood pressure, etc.
When buying healthcare coverage for yourself, you first fill out a questionnaire and you’re scored. I score over 2,000, so no private company will provide me with coverage.
Fortunately, we have WSHIP, the Washington State Health Insurance Pool. It’s been a few years, but I think the monthly was about $550 with large copays and large deductible, making it catastrophic insurance at best. For example, I take cellcept costing about $12/day (retail), which I paid for out of pocket.
I was 19 when I first started spending quality time in hospitals. I’m now 41. My initial disease was probably caused by exposure to toxic chemicals; in highschool I worked cleanup for a PCB manufacturer, they didn’t exactly follow workplace safety rules.
What I appreciate most about your post is your presumption of guilt. That I, the sick, somehow did something wrong. That I have some sort of moral deficiency and so am somehow deserving of being denied adequate coverage.
This worldview places you squarely into the Antony Robbins camp.
He doesn’t believe in germ theory and preaches that you’re sick because you did something wrong. Robbins is truly a con and a whackjob.
Does anyone else appreciate the irony of the trogs denying neo-Darwinism (genetics + natural selection), but yet are the biggest proponents of Social Darwinist policies?
All the best.
@2 “Are you an illegal alien? If so, who gives a shit if you uninsured!!”
Well, maybe I do, because I’m paying for their medical care. If you don’t care about that, that’s your business, but don’t drag me down with you.
The same crowd that opposed mandatory motorcyle helmets and mandatory auto liability insurance think people who are too cheap to buy health insurance should continue freeloading on the rest of us.
However, the “too cheap to buy” argument is a red herring, because it does nothing to address the problem of people who can’t afford health insurance or who can’t get health insurance because of pre-existing conditions or whatever reason. Only stupid people think most of the uninsured are uninsured by choice. That’s simply not true. No one in their right mind would go without health insurance, because one illness or injury could put them in debt beyond anything they could ever repay.
Why don’t we allow foreign health insurance companies to compete in the U.S.?
I know that our health insurers would welcome this competion.
link
[Copied text deleted —see HA Comment Policy and this may help]
why can’t we buy health insurance from a provider out of the state you live in?
Jason Osgood spews:
I never said EVERYONE was guilty Jason.
Are you saying NO ONE is guilty??
C’mon, the vast majority of people with poor health have somehow contributed via lifestyle choices.
PS–
Sorry to hear about your struggles.
You seem to have weathered the storm.
Good for you!
15. Roger Rabbit spews:
Yes, but the vast majority fall into this “too cheap to buy” if they make over $50k.
Hey Rog, I’m “peeling the onion” of Obama Bullshit. Once you peel off layer after layer, you come down to a manageable number where the government can be the ultimate safety net. The problem with Obama’s plan is it sets things up for the government to be the first resort in the long-run.
I oppose that.
Last resort AFTER PEELING THE ONION of illegal Aliens, Too cheap-os and already have access to free health care….then let’s talk about who is left and what we can do as a Safety Net.
Otherwise, the “entitlement” mentality will screw the quality of care and ultimately bust the budget.
Empower individuals…not the government.
Marvin–
Hey, how have you been?
Yup, the Unions DEMAND Cadillac, 1st dollar Health Insurance which has broken the bank in private industry and even more so in the Public Sector.
Medicare makes their administrative costs public. They total less than 2% or benefit payments per year. There is no private company in the US that can come anywhere close to that. That’s efficient.
And yes, I dearly love having decisions about what is covered and to what extent made by people who have a motive to maximize profits, which can only be done by 1) raising premiums and/or 2) lowering benefits.
“the vast majority of people with poor health have somehow contributed via lifestyle choices.”
That’s factually not true. It might be a comforting “belief” system so you can tell yourself you’re not a cold hearted person, and god bless you for having “belief”, but it’s not true.
Accidents are mostly just that (‘some’ high risk, like sky diving, most just accidents). Cancer, Type 1 Diabetes, ALS, etc are not people’s FAULT. My 4 closest people I know that have had hospital stays were my mother (brain cancer), my partner (diverticulitis), good friend (chemical exposure as Navy Seal), and roommate from college (Type 1 Diabetic). My partner actually avoided the hospital from this birth defect for 30 years with homeopathic treatments and diet, but eventually the section of the colon simply had to be removed.
You “believe” that if you walk into Swedish Medical center this afternoon, you’ll find most people there could simply avoided it if they “took responsibility”? That’s cruel and untrue.
Yes we could be a healthier nation (mostly weight). Rush Limbaugh needs to loose weight and stop taking so many drugs, hopefully he has, but he’s a huge risk. When he goes in the hospital next time I’ll remind you it’s HIS fault and he deserves to be there. You’ll be angry and call me some name, but it’s your argument.
Yeah, you don’t want that “entitlement” mentality to make people think that they can just get medical attention whenever they need it! That points to the ruin of the Republic!
The less medical care people get, the healthier they’ll be, dammit! And the best plan is one that provides no care at all.
(Please ignore our huge shared emergency room costs)
“Unions DEMAND Cadillac, 1st dollar Health Insurance which has broken the bank in private industry ”
Factually wrong again. Less than 1 in 10 Americans belong to a Union. Even IF (ha) every single of them demanded and GOT super high expensive health care from their employers, that wouldn’t break the system. And think about it, it’s not like employers are always forced to give unions everything they want, be realistic, it’s give and take. Unions don’t always get what they want. I’m sure SOME unions in some cases have OVERLY nice benefits compared to the non-union sector. But percentage wise it’s not enough to break us.
Sorry, you just love these MYTHS don’t you.
Marvin, it’s not the evilunions. Unlike the United States, all auto manufacturing plants in Canada are unionized.
It’s the healthcare insurance costs. Period.
@9 I’m not arguing with you. You’re arguing with yourself…and losing.
You really don’t know what i want. Do you know what you want? I doubt it.
Mr. Cynical @ 19
Sorry, I don’t follow you. I was raised Christian. It’s not our job to judge others.
It is our job, however, to help others as we’re able.
If there is a final judgment, it’ll be based, at least in part, on how we treated the least among us.
Thanks. Your camp’s policies are letting other people like me die en masse. But your sympathy really takes the sting out.
Listen. I initially survived because my family supported me. Thereafter, I survived, barely, because at this point in history, my skills are overvalued. Even so, it took me years to claw my way out of debt.
How is someone who doesn’t develop software supposed to pay for their family’s healthcare? Why should I get special treatment? Do I work harder? Am I smarter?
No. I’m just a guy. I’m no more worthy than any other person. My station in life, as it were, is just luck of the draw.
Once you realize that life isn’t fair, maybe you’ll stop feeling morally superior to those who are less fortunate than you.
All the best.
@6 The argument that “We’re different” carries about half a gram of weight, especially if it comes on the heels of the now-absurd claim that “we have the best health care system in the world”–which, by the way, I’m in no way implying you made.
If we’re “different” and it’s to our benefit to stay that way, then let’s do so by all means. In this instance, to stubbornly cling to our “difference” even though it’s biting most of us in the arse just because, well…we’re America is dumb. It’s also, in my opinion, not what the founding fathers had in mind. “We The People….in order to form a more perfect union” would seem to imply that a “better America” is a journey, not a destination. If the entire rest of the developed world is doing a better job of something than we are, it behooves us to put away our hubris and maybe learn a thing or two.
Tell ya what. If we have to get our insurance from private companies, then open their books and provide a standardized analysis that tells us where our money to them is going. How much is paid out in benefits? How much goes in the CEO’s pockets? All of it, in a form that can be easily consumed by low-information coumers.
I figure (Re: Cynical, MS, et. al.):
Think whatever you like, and argue whatever you like. It’s passing anyway, WITH an optional publicly-administered plan that will provide choice for us all.
So I guess you guys can suck. on. that.
There is a middle ground someone brought up, and everyone else ignored.
If I insure for catastrophic care, like a sensible person, my premiums go way down. I can and do afford the cost of basic preventive medicine out of pocket. So do most of you, if you’re honest. How many of the left leaning posters here met their co-pays last year? How many spent in medical costs the total of the premiums they paid? Not many, if any, I’d wager.
So make catastrophic care mandatory. I’d still drop my insurance the very day the law mandates I carry it and refuse participation in any ‘public option,’, but that’s another story involving personal freedom.
If we only insured for major medical costs all premiums would go down and costs for routine care would go down drastically. If we coupled that with tort reform, very likely the problems you folks are justifiably concerned about would go away.
But that’s not the game, is it? The real game is to make massive government involvement in health care acustomed. You don’t really care about fixing the system generally without your specific ideological bent. If you did there would be options involving tort reform and insurance reform. There would be bills tweaking the system to make it work, not solely a top down remaking of the entire system.
No, you want to make it the liberal dream of single payer and single payer only. Once you have public option it’s a short step to single payer. And that’s the game you folks are playing, bait and switch.
@28 “Sorry, I don’t follow you. I was raised Christian.”
Ouch, Mr. Klynical, that’s gotta hurt. Start speaking in tongues, blow some holy thunder out your ass, and show that sucker @28 what’s what.
@25
Yea if unions want such Cadillac plans why are some of the best health plans I’ve ever seen in the tech sector?
We’re talking PPO plans with 90-100% in-network coverage, minimal co-pays on office visits and prescriptions, low yearly out of pocket limits, little flack from the insurance company on billing, full coverage for domestic partners and kids too. Best of all everyone who’s been at the company more than 30 days gets the coverage at no cost.
No union health plan I know of has been that good for at least the last 15 years.
Huge breaking news from Texas where right wing robots luv’ to HANG ‘EM HIGH!!!
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....t-of-Texas
As for Daddy Love, he shouldn’t try to assume Constitutional support for his ideology.
The founding fathers would have despised people like him. They would have been appalled at the size and ineptitude of our federal government, and likely would have started the revolution all over again. They would never have envisioned the cradle to grave nanny state people like him and Artfart love so much. Don’t believe me? Read the letters they wrote and the Federalist Papers. These men would have considered your type effete bottom feeders.
@32
Tell you what if I could hand over the average monthly cost per recipient (via taxes or just by writing a check) for Medicare (parts A&B) I would in a heartbeat. For that matter my employer should have the option of doing that rather than buying me a PPO plan through Regence.
And knock off the references to how un-christian it is to not support this government boondoggle.
Yes there is a mandate to charity in the Bible, particularly in the New Testament. This is a personal mandate. It is categorically not a government one. In fact charity coerced is not charity at all, but simple theft. Where is the personal growth in having my pocket picked? Where is the voluntary giving in being robbed?
Re 37
You’re absolutely right. This is why a 20 year phased out abolition of Medicare would be such a good thing for this country. For those retired on the system, let them be. Anyone 45 or younger who can’t be bothered to provide for his or her own retirement financially should be forced to suffer the consequences.
And your employer owes you your wages. It is unions that came up with the absurd notion that somehow your employer owes you health care. That’s your responsibility.
@32
Oh and no matter how much the right wing likes to grind that axe, malpractice claims have little or nothing to do with the cost of medical care.
Tort reform won’t solve shit except protecting doctors, hospitals, and drug companies when they fuck up.
Just for fun…
Cyn, as usual, not thinking through “real world” applications. Then I’ll move on to the hypothetical…
“Let’s review your discretionary spending…and NO latte’s are not a necessity…nor is a cellphone…nor is cable TV…nor is high-speed internet access.Please note that 17.5 MILLION of the so-called uninsured make over $50,000/yr.”
Prior to opening my own business, I worked as a PR Flack specializing in news video feeds. So I would regularly find myself with a camera in the ass of nowhere. My clients need to reach me. I suppose they could send smoke signals, but a cell phone is way more practical. I need to edit video and send it to a client for approval. I suppose I could waste 6-7 hours FTPing over dial-up.
Among my clients? HBO, TNT, Disney Channel, Food Network (think about what all those have in common?). In a professional role, I guess I shouldn’t keep up on what those companies offer. I mean hell, if I need to go interview a host on one of those networks’ shows, I don’t need to be familiar with their work, right?
Hypothetical:
With the right tax prep, $50,000 would be about $45,000 take home. My private insurance for a family of four is $498/mo. Let’s say I had a $1500/mo mortgage (good luck finding that) and exclusively commuted via Puget Pass, my yearly expenses without food would eat up just under half of that $45,000. Figure utilities add up to about $400/mo for a family of four, there goes another $4,800.
$100/week for food won’t cover milk for my two toddler aged children and feed us but I suppose we could scrape by. $5,200 gone. Clothing for two growing children. At Thriftco I can probably get by on $500 year.
So I’m down to about $11,000. Oh, shit. I need to think about retiring so I need to sock away $4,000 a year in a IRA since, as righties are so quick to point out, Social Security will be dead by the time I’m 65. Down to $7,000. I do have the one car that is paid off and 10 years old. We occasionally drive to the south sound to visit Grandma. $1000/year for insurance and registration. $500/ year on gas (that’s less than a tank a month at current prices.) Down to $5,500. The roof leaks and needs repair, down to $2,500. One of my kids actually did get sick and spent an overnight in the hospital. I’m insured but my co-pay and responsibility is about $1,000.
So there you have it Cyn. Under your $50,000 a year single earner family of four. My total available discretionary spending for the year is $1,500.
Life in Republican utopia. Cynical is a good name. You’ve simply repackaged the “welfare Queen” bullshit 30 years later.
@39
I think you misunderstand me, I want the “public option” of being able to buy into medicare at 41 rather than having to deal with for-profit insurance companies.
RE 42
I don’t misunderstand you at all.
I told you how to deal with ‘for profit’ insurance companies, but you couldn’t answer that. Try insuring your car for cleaning, oil changes and wiper blades and see how much your premiums are.
I don’t misunderstand you. You and the rest of the left want to ignore reality. You want someone else to pay for your medical care, and then whine about it. You want someone else to pay for your retirement and then whine about that. You want people who’ve done well by dint of hard work and playing by the rules to pay extra to support this laziness.
And how much do you think your primary care physician pays for malpractice insurance? Factor that by 4 or 5 and you get the rates for a specialist in a difficult field. You think this doesn’t factor into the costs of medical care?
That about cover it?
Re 41:
Here’s your solution. If you can’t afford a family, don’t have one. Or don’t ask me to pay for it. One or the other.
22. Daddy Love spews:
Medicare is going broke…as is any company with benefits vastly exceeding premium
23. Now you see it spews:
“the vast majority of people with poor health have somehow contributed via lifestyle choices.”
That’s factually not true.
I SO hope that you contract a loathsome and incurable disease that your insurance company decides is not covered and you are rendered destitute before croaking in the fashion you so richly deserve.
Cynical obviously agrees with me. It is consistent with his xristianity.
Jason Osgood spews
Exactly…OUR job, not the job of Big Government. This is where most of the division lies. Role of Government.
The Bible speaks very little about the role of government and what is there minimizes governments role and challenges the people.
40. Christopher Stefan spews:
The facts and study by PWC says otherwise.
7%+ waste caused by unnecessary testing and procedures
2% waste from direct cost of malpractice (judgments & legal fees)
NO OTHER CIVILIZED COUNTRY you KLOWNS keep pointing to have the onerous Tort System filled with ambulance-chasers that ours does.
Not Canada, Japan or Europe are the lawyers so prevalent.
Then again, Trial Attorneys support Democrats nearly 100%. This is why.
That’s factually not true.
As is pretty much everything else the C posts. Spewing misinformation and lies takes no effort and intends only to harm. Fucktard idiots like you are a dime a dozen today (and that is with inflation in real 1960 dollars).
41. czechsaaz spews:
Did you ever consider waiting to have a family until you could afford one?
Does your wife work part-time to help out?
I understand the point you are trying to make. The cost of living is going up.
I got it.
But you seem to think the government can print money out of thin air with no consequences downstream.
Do you really honestly believe adding 49 million more insured people to our current system won’t have any negative consequences on quality of service????
You really believe no impact on service…and that in the long-run it won’t add to our national debt??
Pull your head outta the clouds dude.
There ain’t no free ride.
Obama has been lying to you!
Re 51 — Yer a tool and a fool. The whole game is based on a lie.
“The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in inequity and born in sin . . . Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again . . . Take this great power away from them, and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. . . . But, if you want to continue to be the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit.”
Sir Josiah Stamp, Director of the Bank of England, 1927
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
@49
they don’t have the tort lawsuits we have because the government pays the health care costs; this takes the foundational damages out of any tort lawsuit.
follow your own logic…it takes you to single payer…..
So why is Obama playing golf today with a major banker????????????
I suppose Obama is just spting on the banking industry!
HA HA HA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HA
Mr. Cynical @ 48.
So, by your logic, everyone should buy their own fire engine, courts should charge litigants, pay for their own sewage treatment plant, etc.
I’m sensing that you’re a libertarian, or otherwise willfully ignorant of basic economics. Providing healthcare to everyone is called “collective good”. Someone who believes in the “free market” (and other mythical creations) can perhaps rationalize this kind of efficiency by calling it “economies of scale”.
Alas, the downside is that it becomes more difficult to profit from other poeple’s pain and suffering.
lostinaseaofblue @ 38
I’m sorry that my morality makes you so uncomfortable. In my defense, we had to suffer through your camp’s “morality” (dog end dog) for the last 30 years.
You say “charity”, I say “civil society”.
You say you’re being robbed (by paying taxes), I say that anyone who doesn’t pull their weight is a freeloader.
All the best.
Jason–
Kind of a quantum leap from Government Health Care to firefighters. It’s a stretch that does not reach. I have said here many times I believe the role of Government is Defensive, physical infrastructure and Public Safety….not entitlements and other social engineering.
Also the government is not an endless pot of charity money. It is to be managed with good stewardship.
We obviously disagree.
And just so you can see yet another (one of dozens) of examples of the Obama Administration bungling stuff, here is the latest:
Hey Jason–
Anyone that doesn’t pull hs weight is a “FREELOADER”??
Amen.
So what about the tens of millions who pay zero taxes and use Government services??
FREELOADERS??
Pay zero and get services sounds like “freeloading” to me.
Sarge WTF?
Toyota is closing its Prius plant in California to build them in Canada. Why? Health care costs.
OMG that first paragraph made Puddy laugh again reading it for the second time. Do you get it Sarge? Chinese mines? You absorbing too much kook-aid like Sponge Bob wondermoron Square Pants.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha
http://www.glgroup.com/News/To.....41845.html
Sarge@3, where is the health care reason again?
Shorter 44 – only rich people should have children.
@51 – It was of course, hypothetical. But you carry the arguement further. Righties claim the middle class American Dream is achievable for anyone. Even with a college degree, talent and effort it still takes an incredible amount of luck to be a comfortable single-earner family. What’s the difference between a Computer Scienge Engineer who took a job out of college for $45,000 from Microsoft and one who took $58,000 from Wang computing in 1981? The first one is a multi-millionaire while the other needed to polish his resume and hit the pavement in 1985.
And if you move to two income family then your childcare costs grow exponentially.
No one wants to put 49 million into our current system. (Think! Please, I know it hurts. We’re discussing how to overhaul the current system not leave it static and add the cost of 49 million people.)
No one is proposing free health care for all. Even the “socialized” countries don’t have free. Shocking I know, but Canadians and the French and Swedes pay taxes.
@19 “the vast majority of people with poor health have somehow contributed via lifestyle choices.”
This statement is full of shit on so many levels I don’t know where to begin.
For starters, there’s a long list of illnesses that have nothing whatsoever to do with lifestyle choices.
And then there are illnesses, such as many cancers, that are due to occupational or environmental exposures that people have no choice about or control over.
Sure, American eating habits are unhealthy, but that’s not due entirely to eating too much or making the wrong dietary choices. You can’t get healthy food in this country. The store shelves are loaded with crap, and nothing but crap.
Jets, ships, and the global economy ensure the spread of new bugs and viruses between continents literally within hours.
Lifestyle choices? Our entire environment is unhealthy! The air is filthy, the water is full of chemicals, you can’t find a fish on the planet without mercury in its flesh or a spot anywhere in the oceams without PCBs in the water. You stupid humans have so thoroughly polluted the planet there’s no healthy places left. None.
I could go on, but the central thesis of your argument — that people choose to do things that make them sick — is, like all your other arguments, bogus at its core.
@20 “Yes, but the vast majority fall into this ‘too cheap to buy’ if they make over $50k.”
Got some data on that, or just blowing smoke out of your ass?
Here are some of the reasons why so many people are uninsured:
— Fewer employers offering health insurance benefits to workers
— Employers requiring workers to contribute more of the cost
— Rapidly rising premiums
— Job losses and unemployment in the recessionary economy
— The shift of jobs from the manufacturing sector to service sectors (where wages are lower and employers are less likely to provide health insurance benefits)
Cynical and lost simply do not believe in the notions of the social compact that John Locke, among others, espoused, and which so influenced our founding fathers. They simply do not believe that we, as American citizens, owe each other anything. Rather, they, with an intellectual innocence that would almost be endearing if it wasn’t so dangerous, proclaim that everybody would act with charity toward one another if only the government would just get out of the way. These fellows apparently have learned very little about human nature over the course of their lives. The nation they dream of would be Mad Maxian.
Let’s see…there are about 300 million people in America. 47 million don’t have health insurance. So, let’s get the 253 million who have health care insurance to pick up the premium tab for the 47 million that don’t have health care insurance.
Sorry, but I don’t see how national health care will work unless the government does a total take-over of the system. How else can we force the 253 million to pay for the 47 million, plus pay for themselves, too? It has to be done by government in order to get health insurance for all.
Let’s give it a shot and see how it works out. If we don’t like it, we vote it out and go back to what we had.
@32 What you’re overlooking is that some people have NO MONEY AT ALL for routine or preventive health care after paying for the basic necessities of food, clothing, and shelter, and their work-related expenses including transportation to and from workplaces.
“The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing.”
Seems that lately it’s been the other way around.
SJ Summary Service: Mr. C
Obama is proposing “socialized medicine
Illness is a risk that we can cover by taking our bets (since folks live foreover?)
Are you a fat f*ck?
What is your diet and exercise program?? (diets and exercise INCREASE health care costs cause folks are sicker longer)
Do you drink too much (same issue)
smoke dope (what does this have to do with health care?)
do other drugs? (you mean coffeee, chocolate?
@35 I support a sparingly used death penalty for heinous crimes. For example, I think the Carr brothers should be executed; and, in our state, many people justifiably feel Gary Ridgeway’s life sentence is inadequate for his crimes.
The Willingham case is complicated. Three little girls burned to death in a house fire. That certainly qualifies as a “heinous crime” if their deaths were an intentional act. But now an expert tells us the fire was an accident and the guilty verdict resulted from inexcusably sloppy investigative work.
That danger always exists in any criminal investigation and prosecution, and the best we can do is minimize it by doing everything within our power to ensure investigators and prosecutors are properly trained, competent, and ethical. Unfortunately, this is not always the case, although Washington is one of the better states in this regard.
I am greatly troubled by this statement from the Wikipedia article about the case:
“Willingham was charged with murder on January 8, 1992. During his trial in August 1992, he was offered a life term in exchange for a guilty plea, which he turned down insisting he was innocent.”
As a lawyer and former judge, I’ve thought about this issue for years. In my opinion, the death penalty should never be used as a plea bargaining chip. This practice should be outlawed by statute or court rule. The whole concept of requiring defendants to risk a heavier sentence in order to claim innocence is profoundly flawed, but nowhere is it more troubling than when a defendant must risk his life to get the issue of guilt or innocence determined by a trial. That’s a moral wrong which should be abolished from our criminal justice system.
@36 You don’t know how the founding fathers would have met the needs of our modern society, and you shouldn’t pretend that you do. One of the main reasons our Constitution and system of government has survived for 225+ years is because it has been continuously reinterpreted and, yes, amended to adapt it to the changing needs of an evolving society. An argument like yours assumes nothing has changed in 225 years and people live the same way today as they did in 1776.
These righties are just oppositional idiots. They oppose anything that isn’t yet another tax break for the rich.
69
Indeed. We can compare the arrogance of “lost” with the lack of arrogance of our founding fathers. lost believes that he can divine the intentions of the founding fathers from over 220 years ago and that, naturally, those intentions neatly coincide with how he sees the world. The founding fathers, on the other hand, recognized that they did not have all the answers. That is why they produced a document with wiggle room and flexibility with regard to interpretation, and provided a mechanism for amending the Constitution. They knew that future generations would need to change or add to their handiwork. lost, of course, is wiser than our founding fathers when it comes to principles of governance. Just ask him.
Re 36: Many of the founding fathers were slaveowners. Slavehunters, after the Dred Scott decision, would often come up North and grab a poor, not very well connected white person claiming that they were part black.
By that time, it was clear to many Norhterners that the founding fathers had erred on this thing called slavery. It makes me wonder hy Judge Thomas is a strict constructionist, as that would make him 3/5 of a person with no vote and no rights.
“These men would have considered your type effete bottom feeders.”
Well, they wore powdered wigs and tight knickers.
@38 “And knock off the references to how un-christian it is to not support this government boondoggle.”
The Christian references are relevant and appropriate because of the I’ve-got-mine-screw-you component of the right’s argument against health care reform.
However, I think that point of view largely misses the boat. Health care and health insurance would be cheaper for everyone if we wrung the inefficiencies out of the private sector portion of the system. The private health insurance industry represents a huge drain on our financial resources and adds no real value to the system.
65. Roger Rabbit spews:
Take a look at McDonald’s & Burger King sometime…why should I have to pay for the health care of the regulars?
Look at the Liquor Stores…why should I pay for the regulars??
Take a look at the Fatties who refuse to exercise?? Why should I pay for them??
And SJ…you bet too much chocolate & coffee are big problems. Sugar in general.
STOP EATING & DRINKING BAD STUFF!!
If you insist on bad helath habits and no exercise, don’t expect me to pay for your health care!
This just in from AP!!
Another Obama scandal
74
You don’t have an ounce of Christian compassion. All you are is a judgmental shrew, full of contempt for our fellow humans. You do not cast Christians in a good light. I would request that you cease calling yourself a Christian in public. You do not evangelize well. And, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
@39 “And your employer owes you your wages. It is unions that came up with the absurd notion that somehow your employer owes you health care.”
Here, you ‘re simply wrong about the facts. Employers, not unions, dreamed up the concept of health insurance as a fringe benefit.
This happened during World War II and was prompted by wartime labor shortages and wage controls. Unable to attract workers by offering higher wages due to government wage controls, companies used health coverage as a recruiting tool.
This perk was so popular that American industry continued and expanded it after the war ended and wartime wage controls were lifted. Its popularity soon resulted in Congress giving employment-related health benefits tax-sheltered status.
Decades later, when Republicans acquired a governing majority and began their relentless campaign to drive down wages and take away benefits, unions fought to keep workers’ health benefits. But it wasn’t their idea to begin with, nor were unions responsible for introducing health benefits to U.S. compensation practices.
You do, however, make a powerful argument for a public option. Americans came to rely on employer-provided health insurance. You say employers only owe workers their wages. Fair enough, but if we’re now doing away with the the employer-based health insurance system, then we need to replace it with something else. Given the lack of a competitive market for health care, I believe acting as insurer of last resort is an appropriate role for government, especially if it makes our economy more efficient and our businesses more competitive in world markets.
It just makes a lot of sense to let businesses focus on competing in their markets and let government take over responsibility for the health of our population.
This would make health care universally portable, would save the business sector all the administrative costs of managing their insurance benefit programs, would achieve economies of scale that even the largest private enterprises can’t attain, would ensure universal coverage, would give insurance consumers the peace of mind of knowing they won’t be bankrupted by coverage gaps or arbitrary denial-of-service decisions by profit-oriented insurers, and would lower the overall cost to the economy of meeting the health care needs of our population by reducing the role of our extremely inefficient private insurance system.
Only a Republican could be against that.
What motivates Republicans to oppose health care reform? Good question. The only thing I can think of is they’re misanthropes who hate their fellow human beings. Which brings us back to the whole Christian thing. Real Christians love, not hate, their fellow man. People who call themselves “Christians” but let a “I’ve-got-mine-screw-you” attitude govern their words and deeds aren’t Christians at all. They’re fakes, and people should call them out on their fakery.
I don’t know if you can say the founding fathers “erred” on the question of slavery. Tolerating slavery in the southern states was the price they had to pay to create the United States of America. Of course, that left the issue unresolved, and set the stage for a brutal and costly civil war. I doubt they foresaw the civil war, but they surely knew that without the compromise they made, the states could not have been knit together into a union.
@77 Actually, it began earlier than that. Kaiser Permanente was started by Henry J. Kaiser to provide for the medical needs of his employees working on the Lost Angeles Aqueduct and Grand Coulee Dam. It in turn was part of the inspiration for the establishment of Group Health Cooperative here in Seattle 20 years later.
No doubt Puddy and Cynical would assert that Henry was some sort of lily-livered patsy. From what I’ve heard about him, Henry’s response would probably be to tell them both to go piss up a rope.
@65 Your rhetoric begs the issue, Cynical. Why should all of us have to pay more for an inefficient private health insurance system that leaves all of us financially exposed because of the stupid insistence of dogmatics like you on an every-man-for-himself approach to providing for our society’s health care needs? Take your idiotic intansigence to a desert island and let the rest of us provide for ourselves.
@81 Oh my, when they find this out, they’re gonna call him a “socialist”!
So here you have two of America’s leading socialists coming up with these radical ideas:
Henry Ford thought his workers should earn enough to be able to buy the cars they made.
Henry Kaiser thought his workers should have health care so they’d be healthy enough to show up for work.
Yep, even before the Depression and the Second War, socialism had gotten a toehold on American soil!
Rog@ 84–
So you should be able to earn enough to buy all the bullshit you spew…so what??
I’d hate to be making popsicles!!
And there are lots & lots of employers who provide helth care.
So what??
Rog@ 82 —
Spoken like a true Socialist…or Marxist.
To each according to his needs.
Ummmmmmmm, Rog…the reason America has been the hub of entreprenuership and innovation is REWARD FOR RISKS AND EFFORTS.
The reason America is falling in the toilet is ENTITLEMENTS,
Show me where you Socialistic strategy has worked in the long-run Rog??
“Lifestyle choises” = a bunch of horseshit. The fact is that 85% of the population is not likely to get expensively sick means that “lifestyle choices” aren’t relevant. 5% of the population in any given age demographic accounts for 50% of all health care costs, and 15% for 85% of costs. Being basically healthy in a developed country isn’t some kind of personal achievement–it is the statistical norm.
Using this “personal responsibility” nonsense as an argument means that we need to abolish all fire departments, because if people would just wire their houses correctly, teach their kids not to play with matches, and not store oily rags in the basement, there would never be any fires.
There is no good reason for treating a heart attack any differently from a house fire.
Anyone who doesn’t think that health care is a right is a member of the American Death Panel.
87
Responding to Cynical’s blathering is pointless, as much as we all get drawn to do it. His mind closed down long ago, if, indeed, it was ever open. He is a pathetic little troll, who thinks quite a lot of himself. He is, however, incapable of argument involving little things like facts and reason. So, to the extent he warrants any attention at all, it is best just to bash him.
Mr. Cynical:
The first f-ing word of the quote was “if,” you retard.
Suck my left one. You’re a moron.
Roger Rabbit @ 73
I learned from David Domke that reason and facts don’t win the public debate. Hence the personal story and moral argument.
—
The economic case is beyond dispute; single payer universal health care would be great for all American businesses.
Conservative healthcare “reform” benefit select businesses, pharma and insurance, to the detriment of every other business.
We see this over and over. Agricultural subsidies for agribusiness which hurts the small farmers. Environmental policies benefitting oil, timber, and miners, at the expense of fishers. Relaxing regulations on media benefiting mega corps, hurting local and independent outlets. Etc.
Conservatives are not pro-business. They’re pro-campaign donors. Pay to play. Conservatives have repeatedly demonstrated that they’re hostile to everyone else.
John, you have Democratic Congressman, Senator, Governor, and President.
Why so angry?
Roger Rabbit @ 78
Conservatives (e.g. The Economist) criticize European labor laws, compared to ours, because they limit labor mobility. Their argument is that businesses are reluctant to increase staffing as needed because it’s so hard to decrease later. The result is that European businesses don’t have the flexibility they need to compete.
And yet, conservatives have no problem when healthcare benefits shackle employees to their jobs, reducing mobility.
The hypocrisy shouldn’t surprise me, but it does.
I don’t mind that conservatives have a bent worldview. But it’d be pleasant if it was at least self-consistent.
Roger Rabbit @ 77
I had understood that employers always knew that government provided healthcare made better business sense. But they opposed it, choosing to keep the yoke on workers, otherwise it’d give Labor too much power.
Mr. Cynical @ 74
I’m shocked, shocked that you’re an elitist snob. The contempt you have towards average Americans is quite the disappointment.
Mr. Cynical @ 57
Who are these imaginary millions who don’t pay taxes? The homeless? No, even they pay sales tax.
You must be referring to those who exploit loopholes and hide their money in offshore accounts. Corporations and the mega rich. What Bush The Lesser called “His Base”.
You may recall that life isn’t fair. I expect that everyone should contribute as they’re able. Nothing more, nothing less.
95
You’ll notice that when Cynical gets seriously challenged he disappears. He’s not one for a serious argument. I think we can safely call him a coward.
Lots of talk and nothing to say, as usual.
As usual also the talk serves to distract from the embarassing lack of response to a cogent argument.
You folks want the public option for one reason. That reason is NOT to cure the health care system, but to push an ideological agenda. This is why the thing is pushed so hard and fast. You know if people have time to think about it they’ll tell you to shove it. You don’t want the system fixed, you want single payer health care.
You consistently ignore common sense and insist that government run health care will be cheaper. This is a notion that is laughable on its’ face. Who ever heard of anything at all being done better or even passably by government?
You call someone unchristian and immoral because they don’t feel the need to feed, clothe and care for another citizens’ family by force, coercion and outright theft from their hard earned money. You use hateful vulgar speech to push this ridiculous position, which is consistent with the general lack of logic in your worldview.
Good luck, I say. Good luck seeing your current physician when he or she decidesnot to deal with the federal option and be robbed. Only the mediocre will remain in such a system for any length of time. Good luck getting newly researched drugs to cure yourself when pharma decides R&D no longer pays the bills in your cost controlled new world. Good luck getting Grandmas’ heart surgery in the rationed world inevitable in your utopia. Lie about it all you want, the dollar only goes so far, and someone will get rationed.
Good bloody luck.
re 97
lostinhisownasshole is well…
…lostinhisownasshole.
Re 95
“From each according to his ability to each according to his need.” Sound familiar.
Under Obama plans we would reach a tipping point where less than half the people pay taxes to support the balance. Sales tax aside, which is not a federal issue anyway, this is unhealthy and immoral.
Re 98
May I commend you on your wit, eloquence and general stirring manner of address?
When I revert to dribbling senility I want to sound just like you. Wait, I guess I will.
lost @ 97
You are, indeed, lost. We in the United States have slower access to primary care physicians than almost any developed nation. Sweden, Germany, Britain, France–you know, those nations with “socialized” medicine–you’ll get better and quicker access to your physician than you will here. The only quicker access we have is to elective surgery. Specialists get paid more, so we have plenty of them. An abundance of them. That’s what the market gets us here in the good old US of A with regard to healthcare. You are the ideological one, my man. You don’t listen, and you don’t hear. Our system is broken. Your ideology prevents you from seeing that.
Re 101
Respectfully, it was pointed out the other day by one of your friends that Sweden has the highest tax rates in Europe, and France isn’t far behind. Additionally, I agree and have written that our system is broken. I just disagree with your conclusion about the fix.
I have friends living in Italy and in Brittain. They tell me that the system there is as ‘broken’ as ours, only in different ways. They tell me about long waits for non-elective surgery, and elderly people denied surgeries as being a waste of money. They tell me about medical errors ruining peoples’ lives with no hope of recompense.
My ideolology does act as a filter limiting what I’m prepared to believe. So does my experience and knowledge of how the world works. This is a problem common to all human beings. I don’t honestly imagine it is one limited to the right side of the political spectrum.
100. lostinaseaofblue spews:
You just don’t have “it”, dumbfuck, never will.
lostinhisownasshole is just another stupid, unoriginal garden variety trollfuck.
It really must get smelly in there.
PS…I just play down to the level of the competition.
re 74: Nobody is expecting anything from you.
You are the freeloader because you insist that we all subsidize your gambling habiin thestock market.
re 102: “They tell me about medical errors ruining peoples’ lives with no hope of recompense.”
They must have done a very good job of ‘tort reform’. When mistakes are made, the person continues to get medical care (not here, though!) — which is the reason for the lawsuits in this country — idiot.
95. Jason Osgood spews:
The point is Jason, they don’t pay their “fair share” for services used. Twist equity as hard as you might…when you have a system where some pay much more than others for the same services, it’s hardly equitable.
Don’t want to make freeloaders feel bad about freeloading though, do we!!
Mr. Cynical @ 108
Who’s “they”?
What services are you talking about? Roads? Air? Water? Schools? Healthcare?
Methinks we have very different definitions of freeloaders.
Some words of Ted Kennedy that seem particularly apt:
Ted Kennedy
1980 Democratic National Convention Address
delivered 12 August 1980, New York, NY
Full transcript with audio.