More and more news is surfacing about the ongoing problems that medical marijuana patients in this state are facing. Here are some more links:
Dominic Holden writes about another transplant patient being denied.
Carol Ostrom writes in the Seattle Times about how the State Department of Health is now likely to miss the deadline for establishing a legal 60-day limit for medical marijuana patients and providers because law enforcement didn’t like the initial number proposed. I commented on the whole mess here.
100 years ago marijuana was just another weed, useful for making rope. Now, because of the paranoia of government bureaucrats, it has been turned into the “Green Death of Destruction.”
Sure, smoking pot is not good for you, but it’s not the villain the government portends it to be. It’s time to legalize this weed and allow adults who choose to do so to enjoy it in privacy.
It’s none of the government’s business what people do in their bedrooms or their living rooms.
Hmmm howsa about peyote?
Of course you guys do allow transubstantiation, right?
YELLOW JOURNALISM
Last night at DL we had a speaker who, rightly, trashed the radical right for its misuse of journalism. His point was that FAUX and fiends misuses the media by lies and slurs. True enough.
So, is the same strategy OK if it is used to promote a liberal cause? I share Lee’s enthusiasm for legalizing marijuana … I even support legalizing marijuana. BUT, that support does not justify swift boat attacks on the medical care system.
The article cited by Lee, has more horse turds than a 1908 NY City street..
Here area few, simple facts:
1. Experts … Of the two UW “expert” cited in suport of the reporter’s attcks on transplant medicine, Dr. Roffman has no relevant credential. Roffman is a (PhD) sociologist specializing in entrepreneurship.
Dr. Greg Carter is a clinician in rehab medicine who does study use of cannabinoids in muscular dystrophy. According to the article, contamination of MJ by a fungus is the major reason userfs of commercial MJ are rejected and Dr. Carter rejects this.
I am sufficiently skeptical that I plan to email Greg Carter and see if I can get him to comment. Until then let me point out to HA readers that njeither Dr. Carter nor I (nor Lee or the Stranger reporter) know the rules used to assign priorities for transplant.
3.Just because some Doc prescribes MJ does not mean that this is good medical practice. As long as something is harmless, as MJ probably is, a physician can prescribe ANYTHING. Your friendly local doc can prescribe massage, sex, herbal tees, or chocolate covered grasshoppers. Marijuana is NOT an approved drug. The designation of MMJ exists BECAUSE of the same dumb laws that pretend it is a gharmful drug.
4. Medical MJ is an impure plant, not very different in its supervison than healthfood peanut butter. Why do I mantion the latter? Well, like MJ, peanut butter is a good “soil” to grw a toxic fungus. If the shop grinds its own PB but is nto sufficiently careful, you may get aflatoxin .. a carcinogen .. along with that PB&J sandwich. I suspect that the fungus Apergillis, can grow on MJ even after it is is provided to a pt unless the stuff is carefully kept.
Given the costs of a transplant and the rarity of donor organs, would it be unreasonable of a transplant committee to prioritize those patients most willing to abode by strict guidance form their physicians?
Finally Lee, all of us are worried about the future of healthcare. As an inmate of the healthcare asylum I can tell you one of the biggest problems we face is overwhelmingly regulation resulting from activists groups.
There is something that has always interested me. How is it that the banning of alcohol required the passing of an amendment to the Constitution, the most difficult legislative wrangling that can ever be done, yet making any other consumable substance illegal, in this case a naturally occurring weed, requires only a simple majority vote in congress and no resistance to cloture?
Debate what you will about morality. The legal and economic aspects: it is not a controlled substance (as in it is not processed and purified into something other than it’s natural form), it is not physically addictive, persecuting smokers is extraordinarily expensive, and prioritizes non-violent offenders over violent ones for jail time, and legalization could lead to taxation; and you have a compelling argument to legalize.
Granted, to be used medically it should be put under the same standards as any other prescription item. It should not be smoked by prescription, as the side effects of smoking are not healthful. I also see no reason that most patients shouldn’t be able to use marinol pills or other cannabinoid pills, which perform many if not most of the positive effects of marijuana without many of the negative effects.
@3
So, is the same strategy OK if it is used to promote a liberal cause? I share Lee’s enthusiasm for legalizing marijuana … I even support legalizing marijuana. BUT, that support does not justify swift boat attacks on the medical care system.
Sorry Steve, this isn’t a swift boat attack. No one’s manufacturing any facts here. I’ve already sent you a number of links to studies that you previously claimed do not exist, but for some reason you’re still convinced that you’re not being misled by the people who misled you the first time. Why?
1. Experts … Of the two UW “expert” cited in suport of the reporter’s attcks on transplant medicine, Dr. Roffman has no relevant credential. Roffman is a (PhD) sociologist specializing in entrepreneurship.
And he’s absolutely correct about what he’s saying. There’s no justification to believe that a medical marijuana patient would not stop using his medicine if it were required for transplant recovery.
Dr. Greg Carter is a clinician in rehab medicine who does study use of cannabinoids in muscular dystrophy. According to the article, contamination of MJ by a fungus is the major reason userfs of commercial MJ are rejected and Dr. Carter rejects this.
And I’ve pointed this out as well. If aspergillosis was something even remotely common, wouldn’t it be affecting some of the 20 million or so regular marijuana smokers in this country? Basic common sense tells you that Carter is correct.
I am sufficiently skeptical that I plan to email Greg Carter and see if I can get him to comment. Until then let me point out to HA readers that njeither Dr. Carter nor I (nor Lee or the Stranger reporter) know the rules used to assign priorities for transplant.
Yes, but we do know that patients have been told that in order to be reconsidered, they must stop using medical marijuana. Again, common sense tells you that it’s factoring into the decision.
3.Just because some Doc prescribes MJ does not mean that this is good medical practice.
Just because a transplant committee denies someone a transplant does not mean that that was based on sound medical knowledge either.
As long as something is harmless, as MJ probably is, a physician can prescribe ANYTHING. Your friendly local doc can prescribe massage, sex, herbal tees, or chocolate covered grasshoppers.
If MJ is harmless, then why is it being used to deny people transplants?
Marijuana is NOT an approved drug. The designation of MMJ exists BECAUSE of the same dumb laws that pretend it is a gharmful drug.
Exactly. And this is why Simchen is being denied a transplant.
4. Medical MJ is an impure plant, not very different in its supervison than healthfood peanut butter. Why do I mantion the latter? Well, like MJ, peanut butter is a good “soil” to grw a toxic fungus. If the shop grinds its own PB but is nto sufficiently careful, you may get aflatoxin .. a carcinogen .. along with that PB&J sandwich. I suspect that the fungus Apergillis, can grow on MJ even after it is is provided to a pt unless the stuff is carefully kept.
Again, please provide the numbers of the frequency of aspergillosis among the nation’s 20+ million pot smokers.
Given the costs of a transplant and the rarity of donor organs, would it be unreasonable of a transplant committee to prioritize those patients most willing to abode by strict guidance form their physicians?
What would you do if you were told that you were being denied a lifesaving transplant because they didn’t want to give an organ to someone who was overweight because it was an indication that you didn’t take good care of yourself?
Finally Lee, all of us are worried about the future of healthcare. As an inmate of the healthcare asylum I can tell you one of the biggest problems we face is overwhelmingly regulation resulting from activists groups.
We could cut down a lot of our health care costs if we only treated white people. That doesn’t make it right. The point is that this is a matter of discrimination – even if it’s one that many have convinced themselves is necessary and valid. People who have made certail legal and valid medical decisions are being discriminated against without any real medical basis.
The Deity @ 2,
Please feel free to go fuck yourself if you have a different opinion about legalization of marijuana.
“Sorry Steve, this isn’t a swift boat attack. No one’s manufacturing any facts here. I’ve already sent you a number of links to studies that you previously claimed do not exist, but for some reason you’re still convinced that you’re not being misled by the people who misled you the first time. Why?”
Lee
This is swiftboating unless you or someone knows more than you offer about the comittee’s decisions.
You are not being honest about the materials you sent me. They are almost all ibn non reviewed journals. In fact, I sent you better papers on the same subject that do support investigation into uses of THC and THC antagonists. Those same papers make the obvious poin that use of an iundefined green vegetable substance as a substitue for THC amkes no sens .. at least no medical sense. Next time you need an aspirin would you prefer to buy a bottle of pills or chew on some bark?
The bottom line? While there is enough evidence to believe that THC may be a useful drug, the critical experiments still need to be done. I, like you, t6hink that should be done. Until then regarding bits of GVM as medicine is not wise.
you go on …
I pointed out that it makes no sense to site Fr. Rottman as an expert soince his field is entreprenheurial sociology .. he has absolutely no professional expertise in marijuana. Citing him as a UW Professor is meaningless .. a trick very much like swiftboating. Yet6, still pretending thar he is an expert You say, “And he’s absolutely correct about what he’s saying. There’s no justification to believe that a medical marijuana patient would not stop using his medicine if it were required for transplant recovery.” Would you take MT word if I told you Global Warming was good for Washington’s Apple crop?
As it haopoens I do have mnore than ehough knowledg to sipatch your second cmmentt, “. If aspergillosis was something even remotely common, wouldn’t it be affecting some of the 20 million or so regular marijuana smokers in this country? Basic common sense tells you that Carter is correct. Ahhh yes ,,, “basic common sense…” sounds a lot like the wisdokmj ascribed to Reagan or our friends at the DI who “know” there is an Intellgient Designer.
There is a huge difference between apergillis risk in healthy people and the risk in immunosuppressed (transplant) patients. The latter all too readily get fungal infections. Other than that, let e say again, neither you, not I have any idea what the iss7ues were that the ctee considered in ranking this guy. HE is protected by HPPA laws.
You go on
Yes, but we do know that patients have been told that in order to be reconsidered, they must stop using medical marijuana. Again, common sense tells you that it’s factoring into the decision.
Again, whatever you call common sense may well be wrong. You are condemning the folks on this committee wioht no knowledge of their process. Frankly, I suspect that you could, of you wanted, find out a lot about the governing policies by just asking.
Yet, you go on to challenge the committee’s integrity, Just because a transplant committee denies someone a transplant does not mean that that was based on sound medical knowledge either.
Sure, it is possible that the committee consists of troglydites and Klanners but you are making a pretty serious accusation with no evidence beyond YOUR belief that MJ is a critical factor in their process and belief in the goodness of GVM (green veg. matter).
The designation of MMJ exists BECAUSE of the same dumb laws that pretend it is a harmful drug.
Exactly. And this is why Simchen is being denied a transplant.
I hope your programs use tighter logic than this. Simchen is requesting to become a transplant patient. Immunosuppressed patients need to be careful about a LOT of things that are harmless to the rest of us. Moreover you have no idea what the basis was for putting this fellow lower on the list. How do you know that the next person above him is not a five year old girl who lost her kidneys in an auto accident?
You ask, Again, please provide the numbers of the frequency of aspergillosis among the nation’s 20+ million pot smokers.
That is utterly unrelated to the issue we are discussing. 1. You do not know if the issue here was MJ at all. 2. If so you do not know if the major concern with MJ was aspergilla. 3. The risk of aspergillis in the genral population is very different than the risk in immunosupressed folks.
You go on,
What would you do if you were told that you were being denied a lifesaving transplant because they didn’t want to give an organ to someone who was overweight because it was an indication that you didn’t take good care of yourself? Do you really want an anser to that? I suspect that I might well be rejected based on my obesity. I doubt, however, that they would make the sort of ad hominem decision you offer that this was my “fault.” However, oif for any reason, I was a poorer cnadiate than say Mr. Simchen, the it owuld seem to me to be fair to make an objective decision.
We could cut down a lot of our health care costs if we only treated white people. That doesn’t make it right.
and your ;point is??? that a behavioral choice is the same thing as one’s genbetic origins? Look, if you wanna go this way, why not ask a Hard QUESTION. If two pts. need transplant and are equal except that Barry carries the sickle allele while Alan has a “clean” genome. You have resources for one transplant. OK Solomon, what next?
People who have made certail legal and valid medical decisions are being discriminated against without any real medical basis.
Again, MJ may be harmless and may be useful as a drug, BUT there is no accepted medical indication for MJ. YOU do not know that Simchen’s use of MJ is medically valid.
Seriously, you REALLY can do better than this. You make excellent points about jail, the color of coke, and harmlessness of MJ except when you get arrested.
The Third Path
Sometimes at DL I get frustrated by people who adhere. like their Repricann colleagues, to what might be called an “orthodox” dogma.
On the right the trouble is obvious .. the dogma is not based in a rational or consistent philosophy. ID is irrational, right to life is not consistent with capital punishment, etc.
The orthodoxy of the left is a tad less obvious. Still, there are irrational elements of the Democratic credo … the asbestos scare and agent orange syndrome to the best of my knowledge are fictional constructs. Similarly, there are the internal contradictions assocu=iated with affirmative action .. if you think brown folks should get affirmative action because of slavery then why do we give affirmative action to Nigerians?
It seems to me that there IS a third path .. I will call it rationalism. The artionalist demands evidence wherever possible. She rejuects ID AND insists on seeing the evidence for glocal warming. She demands that a candidate advocating exit from Iraq describe the tactics needed to achieve this goal and the strategic implicatins.
Rationalism is not necessarily of the right or the left. An Ayn Rand liberal can be very conservative and veryt rational. A comitted socialist may embrace the prolife move,ment because that decision, ie when “life begins” is never simply rational.
Back to Lee and POT.
I have learned a lot from Lee. He has utterl;y changed my POV on criminilizationhj and the misuse of our drug laws.
My respect for you, Lee, is why I am upset at the attack on the committees that supervise transplantstion. It is certainly possible that all of your accusations are true and that the UW committee is arbitrary and bigoted. It is possible but there is no evidence that this is true.
So, it seems to me that turning your guns on these folks discredits the findamental rationalism of your cause. Based on my experience with the kind of folks who sit on these committees I woul be VERY angry if your claims were true. I would, indeed, go so fart as to agree that this may be worth some investigative journalism. But swiftboating, from the right or left, discredits everything else its sponsors may support.
My bottom line: if you or the Stranger want to spush for the rational goal of alowing folksd to buy their MJ at Starbucks, then kee your scientific skirts clean. If you have rela reason to pursue the transplant ctee, GREAT. BUT, get your fcts together first.
Realismus uber alles!
@8
Your point here about aspergillosis is valid and well-taken.
But the reason that we know that medical marijuana use factored into the UWMC’s decision is because they told the patients directly that they would be reconsidered if they refrained from their medical marijuana use. How much clearer does it have to be?
Tx for listening!
Lee,
I do not know anyne on the ctee but I suspect I could find someone to talk with you if you want.
Withuot knowing more, my guess is that medical marijuana is one of a a long list of factors. The list may include some things that are ule in rule out or it may have some kind of scoring system. In the first case MM would be, as you say (and rightly or wrongly) a decive factor on its own. In the second, it would be just one of many and maybe enough to tip this guy one way or the other.
Even ion the former case, I would not be so sure that MM is any different than many prescription drugs. For example, there is a set of drugs that are activated by the liver that you mightr not want a TP patient to take even if they were prescribed for some good reason.
My bottom mline is that the MM issue is not really related to the legalized pot issue. Most legal prescritpion drugs are controlled. I also know that mqny in the MM community have a sort of naturopthic POV that MJ only works if ingested in a natural form. Taking any medicine in its imnpure form is a difficult proposition.
Finally6, it may simply be that the hospital bans M ubcluding MM. They may do this simply to stay out of lehgal troubles. In that case ther TP ctee would have no choice.
VTW one of the dopcs you cited jas been in contact with me about maybe doing a piece for HA or SJ. Shall I put you in direct contact with him?
Be good.
@13
Even ion the former case, I would not be so sure that MM is any different than many prescription drugs. For example, there is a set of drugs that are activated by the liver that you mightr not want a TP patient to take even if they were prescribed for some good reason.
The point here is that no one would be denied a transplant for following a doctor’s advice when it comes to any other prescription medication. But MMJ is treated differently in that respect. An assumption is being made that a patient who takes MMJ is different in certain ways than a patient who pursues other treatments at the advice of medical professionals.
VTW one of the dopcs you cited jas been in contact with me about maybe doing a piece for HA or SJ. Shall I put you in direct contact with him?
Absolutely.
Lee,
as I said, you do not know that. For example, many people are on psychoactive drugs whose metabolism is dependent on a set of enzymes called MFOs. These enzymes may themselves be induced by the drug and can affect many other drugs. So, the TP ctee may decide to only do a TP if the patient is able ot go off a prescribed drug. I actually do not know how MJ is metabolized but here are a few papers that suggest this might be an issue:
1: Lee SY, Oh SM, Lee SK, Chung KH.
Antiestrogenic effects of marijuana smoke condensate and cannabinoid compounds.
Arch Pharm Res. 2005 Dec;28(12):1365-75.
PMID: 16392670 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
2: Bland TM, Haining RL, Tracy TS, Callery PS.
CYP2C-catalyzed delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol metabolism: kinetics,
pharmacogenetics and interaction with phenytoin.
Biochem Pharmacol. 2005 Oct 1;70(7):1096-103.
PMID: 16112652 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Watanabe K, Motoya E, Matsuzawa N, Funahashi T, Kimura T, Matsunaga T, Arizono
K, Yamamoto I.
Marijuana extracts possess the effects like the endocrine disrupting chemicals.
Toxicology. 2005 Jan 31;206(3):471-8.
PMID: 15588936 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
4: Sheweita SA.
Narcotic drugs change the expression of cytochrome P450 2E1 and 2C6 and other
activities of carcinogen-metabolizing enzymes in the liver of male mice.
Toxicology. 2003 Sep 30;191(2-3):133-42.
PMID: 12965116 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Dean B, Bradbury R, Copolov DL.
Cannabis-sensitive dopaminergic markers in postmortem central nervous system:
changes in schizophrenia.
Biol Psychiatry. 2003 Apr 1;53(7):585-92.
PMID: 12679236 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
6: Zullino DF, Delessert D, Eap CB, Preisig M, Baumann P.
Tobacco and cannabis smoking cessation can lead to intoxication with clozapine or
olanzapine.
Int Clin Psychopharmacol. 2002 May;17(3):141-3.
PMID: 11981356 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
Moreover, as I said, the hospital may havce a rule against MJ in order to be in compliance with federal rules. So, during the time a TP pt is hospitalized (and that is not just post op) they mayu be required to ban the MJ.
My suggestion is that of you want to learn abiut this I will find our who is on one of these ctees and tell them you are a rational guy who would like to know more baout the process.
BTW, I am not sure about the TO ctee, but similar ctees at the UW are always looking for rational volunteers from the public.