Washington Defense has relaunched its website devoted to opposing the KVI anti-roads initiative, I-912. While part of the broader coalition opposing I-912, Washington Defense maintains its independence, and is a good source of information and resources regarding the initiative, including a comprehensive, county-by-county breakdown of the projects that I-912 would scuttle.
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Good! We need to see more of these efforts to take this anti-roads, anti-public safety initiative down.
You can call it the ‘Goobers for Gas Taxes’.
How is is being in bed with all those evil corporate interest you abhor so much Goldy?
No PBJ – we can call it People for Public Safety. You’re a proud member in standing of the Gridlock Gang.
You mean the evil corporate interests that your prezident, George Dubya, likes to hand out favors to? Billions and billions in subsidies, PBJ.
It’s ironic that you start complaining about “evil corporate interests” when they line up against you. I’m sure you had no problem with many of them supporting the Rossi campaign. But now they’re evil because they oppose I-912.
Typical, pbj. That’s what you are – the double standard is what you live by – and what you live for.
Actually PBJ – if there’s one thing businesses are good at, it’s being in favor of their self interest. If our roadways fall apart, these businesses will be hurting mightily. Hence, they support transportation funding. It’s in their self interest. It’s also in yours and mine.
Mr. Cynical has shown his true colors by opposing the gas tax — and demanding that gas taxes paid by King County motorists continue to subsidize roads in other counties instead of being used for critical safety projects in King County. Mr. C is a member in good standing of the Freeloader Club.
There was a letter to the editor in the PI from someone claiming small business owners will have to pay $1516 per year due to the gas tax. The only business owner who will have to pay that much would be someone commuting daily an average of 80 miles each way in a vehicle that makes a Hummer look fuel efficient.
Igmoring the fact that the full 9.5 cent tax isn’t effective for several years, $1516 equals 16,000 gallons of gas. For the hypothetical 40,000 mile per year driver to use this much gas, his car would have to get 2.5 miles per gallon. Maybe a Sherman tank? Baynative, is that you?
Assuming a more realistic annual mileage of 20,000 and fuel usage of 20 mpg, equals 1000 gallons of gas. The extra tax, once the full 9.5 cents is effective, would be $95 per year, less than $10 per month.
Mr. C is a member in good standing of the Freeloader Club.
And another fine member of the Gridlock Gang, I might add.
Not trying to be slow here, but why is there no breakdown of the King, Pierce and Snohomish counties on the Wash. Def. webpage?
wayne @ 6
Many businesses log major miles in addition to the owner’s commute. Manufacturing companies constantly drive all over the region to move parts for processing and delivery. If a courier is used instead the costs rise with the price of gas. I do not know how the PI writer arrived at the $1516, yet expect both sides to roll out extreme numbers to support their position.
Justcurious @ 7
But that type of expense is tax deductible, unlike the normal commuting travel expense addressed by the letter to the editor. I think it is important for people to recognize both the cost and benefit of the tax. Over- or under-emphasizing either is misleading or even dishonest.
It’s good to see where the $ would go. All we ever hear from the MSM is the dollars, not what we’re getting for our money.
I think a lot of the problem is people don’t have any faith in where our current gas tax $’s are going. We already have one of the higher gas taxes in the nation. What needs to be explained is why we need to have the highest gas tax in the nation after this latest increase is fully implimented. Why?????? Otherwise the public is left wondering if a lot of the tax $ are just being pissed away. I’d like to see some benchmarking against other states. How much are they taxed, how much do they spend on roads etc.
Additionally this is about more than just concrete and asphalt. It’s also about how our State Govnernment conducts its business, poorly administered elections…and so on. Last I heard, the majority of people in this State still believe Rossi received more legal votes.
Some have called CG courageous for signing the bill raising gas and other taxes. I disagree. True courage would be to state your tax increase intentions during the campaign. Now we’re left wondering if she was out of touch with our States financial status during the campaign or if she was just saying whatever she had to in order to get elected. Either way it doesn’t look good and seems apparent in her latest approval ratings.
I also think the I-912 opponents are up against some spillover of Sound Transit and the Seattle Monorail. Millions of people are being taxed to pay for something that will benefit only thousands. Is that how we want to spend tax dollars?
I’m suprised you don’t wrap “its for the children” around this one….standard bag of big gov’t spending tricks.
You know, its a village, and villages need roads…
confused@8
probably because they figure pierce, king, snohomish will go largely against I-912 anyways~
Comment on 9
What does it cost a business in terms of time wasted sitting in traffic, or if it becomes impossible to make service calls, deliveries, or pick up parts when the gridlock becomes impenetrable? Remember, the two major projects in King County are replacing Alaska Way Viaduct and 520 bridge, which together carry about a third of Seattle’s traffic and if not replaced will become unsafe and unusable, and have to be closed to traffic? If you think King County gridlock is bad now, it will be horrific when the metro area loses a third of its traffic capacity.
MT,
Typical, pbj. That’s what you are – the double standard is what you live by – and what you live for
Thanks for the laugh. Hmmm I wonder BIAW is against I-912 too. Oh no! The EVIL BIAW!!! ROFL
Dj, when you going to lay into Roger Rabbitt for not reading the bill??
11) “I also think the I-912 opponents are up against some spillover of Sound Transit and the Seattle Monorail.”
Actually, with the Monorail, it’s a couple hundred thousand (if that) benefitting a potential couple of hundred thousand.
“Millions of people are being taxed to pay for something that will benefit only thousands.”
Well, you could say that about almost everything on the state level, that is how taxation works. I cannot demand my taxes not pay for your streetlight because I will never use it.
But I am going to try by volunteering for the tax locally/spend locally iniative when it takes shape after you all are done cutting off your noses.
Roger @14
Good point, time does have a cost and you also get better fuel mileage in free flowing traffic. Unless you’re Dave Ross in his Hybrid, then you do better in City gridlock traffic.
Also, let’s not forget this will not come close to paying the cost of the Viaduct and 520, therefore another tax increase is on the horizon.
The bureaucracy does wonderful things with transportation dollars. Why right now we have a monorail project that has only consumed $100 million for its self promotion. Never mind that no ground has even been broken. And the whole thing will only cost you a billion per mile. What are you – a member of the gridlock gang?
There was a letter to the editor in the PI from someone claiming small business owners will have to pay $1516 per year due to the gas tax. The only business owner who will have to pay that much would be someone commuting daily an average of 80 miles each way in a vehicle that makes a Hummer look fuel efficient.
Igmoring the fact that the full 9.5 cent tax isn’t effective for several years, $1516 equals 16,000 gallons of gas. For the hypothetical 40,000 mile per year driver to use this much gas, his car would have to get 2.5 miles per gallon. Maybe a Sherman tank? Baynative, is that you?
Assuming a more realistic annual mileage of 20,000 and fuel usage of 20 mpg, equals 1000 gallons of gas. The extra tax, once the full 9.5 cents is effective, would be $95 per year, less than $10 per month.
Comment by wayne— 7/14/05 @ 9:33 am
Gosh dumbass – you don’t think its possible he has a fleet of vehicles do you? Maybe limos, airport vans, taxis, construction trucks, garbage haulers, mulch, milkman? Nah that would make too much sense – something you clearly have none of.
Monorail; $100mm spent, 500,000 people live in the city. Good job pissing away $200 for every man, woman and child in Seattle.
pbj @19,
Again, I voted against the Monorail, but I’m really sick of righties trying to point to it as an example of evil, incompetent, corrupt politicians. The Monorail was a grassroots transportation project, largely opposed by the powers that be. The people voted for the Monorail four times.
As I’ve always said, many of you so-called supporters of the initiative process really only honor “the will of the people” when they agree with you.
Not sure all righties have knee jerk against monorail. I have knee jerk against incompetance that seems to be a trademark of transportaion people in the state of Wash (excluding Boeing airliners, but including old boeing efforts at trains and boats).
Can you imagine spending $100mm and ending up with nothing (i think the $100mm excludes land they own and can sell, but i may be wrong on that)
candrewb@17
Do hundreds of thousands of people go from Ballard to West Seattle or points in between right now (or vise versa)? If so how will you get them all on the monorail?
True, it’s not millions for the Monorail alone being taxed, the population of the City is about 600k.
Why are you accusing me of cutting off my own nose for stating some of the challenges I see? Would it be better to ignore them?
Don’t you have a streetlight near your house, I do.
And Bernie Ebbers got 25 year for pilfering millions; what happens to the boobs at the Monorail who pissed away millions (no personal graft, but taxpayers take it in the shorts)
“Do hundreds of thousands of people go from Ballard to West Seattle or points in between right now (or vise versa)? If so how will you get them all on the monorail?”
Yes, or does it have to be everyday to count? The lines ends are in WS and Ballard; there are other stops along the way that thousands of people will use them everyday. To say it only benefits those two neighborhoods is like saying I-90 only benefits Seattle and New York.
“Don’t you have a streetlight near your house, I do.”
Missed my point.
Oh, and there will be tolls on the Viaduct and bridge; that will be the only option they will come up with to pay for the rest of the projects.
My 2 cents @ 11
“I think a lot of the problem is people don’t have any faith in where our current gas tax $’s are going. We already have one of the higher gas taxes in the nation. What needs to be explained is why we need to have the highest gas tax in the nation after this latest increase is fully implimented. Why??????”
We have a high gas tax because we have no income tax! Washington State tax burden is ranked 24 out of 50 states. We are not over-taxed, but our tax system works significantly differently from many other states because we don’t have an income tax.
We used to have a car-tab tax funding a big chunk of transportation. (That tax at least placed a higher burden on those with more expensive cars, so didn’t hit the poor as hard as the gas tax). Unfortunately, that tax was dismantled in response to an initiative in 1999. Transportation has been under funded since then, and now the problem is becoming critical.
That lost revenue must be made up somehow so that we can keep maintaining our roads, provide safety upgrades to dangerous sections of roadways, reduce congestion, keep the ferry system running, and maybe even build new roads (although this is the lowest priority item for the new gas tax to fund).
“Otherwise the public is left wondering if a lot of the tax $ are just being pissed away. I’d like to see some benchmarking against other states. How much are they taxed, how much do they spend on roads etc.”
Check out the “accountability” page at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/accountability/ . The Gray Notebook (or the Lite version) is good reading.
“Additionally this is about more than just concrete and asphalt. It’s also about how our State Govnernment conducts its business, poorly administered elections…and so on.”
Washington is now ranked as the third best managed state in the country, much to the consternation of those who so badly want to rant about corruption and inefficiency. (That is no reason to relax—we should try for number one).
So, the issues you raise seem more like a public relations problem than any real problem with overtaxing, lack of accountability, or poor fiscal management.
26) “Washington is now ranked as the third best managed state in the country, ”
Not to argue, but where is that from?
righton @ 16
“Dj, when you going to lay into Roger Rabbitt for not reading the bill??”
When he starts saying the kinds of idiotic things that you were spewing.
DJ, your links to the accountability pages at the wsdot website are most welcome. Spending 10 minutes cruising through the projects pages over there, with all of the cost breakdowns, schedule info., site diagrams, pictures, updates, etc., breaks down every misconception about “wasted tax dollars”. WSDOT critics who complain about a lack of information are not being truthful – it is laid out in great detail for the whole world to see.
Where is the link to the WSDOT hood canal project and all the millions wasted there?
The WSDOT lost $3.4 million that they gave to the tribe for mitigating the burial site disturbance in return for allowing the work at the graving site to continue. The tribe reneged on the deal and the WSDOT never got the money back!
Here is the history on this:
An archeologist employed by WSDOT to conduct a “cultural resources survey” reported that “no evidence of significant prehistoric or historic archeological resources was found” (MacDonald, 11). The survey, for which WSDOT paid less than $7,000, did note that Tse-whit-zen, a large and important Klallam village, had been located near the project site, and that the village cemetery was in the general vicinity of the former lumber mill. The small Lower Elwha Klallam Tribe, which, unlike some tribes, had no cultural resources office or tribal archeologist, basically agreed with the survey but strongly urged caution due to the proximity to their ancestral village.
It did not take long for construction workers to find what the archeologist had not. On August 16, 2003, just 10 days after ground-breaking for the project was celebrated, workers removing a concrete slab found a shell midden, an unmistakable sign of former habitation. A few days later, the first human bones were unearthed.
Walking Together
Discovery of the remains triggered the federal Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act of 1990, which provides that Native American remains be returned to the tribe of origin for reburial. By August 26, 2003, WSDOT suspended construction work. The Department undertook additional archeological studies and began discussions with the Lower Elwha Klallam. The tribe did not have legal authority to stop the state project, and did not want to be seen as blocking the bridge replacement. The Lower Elwha accepted Secretary MacDonald’s offer to “walk together” to complete the graving dock.
In March, 2004, WSDOT and the tribe signed a Memorandum of Understanding allowing construction to continue. By then, the scattered remains of at least 13 people had been found. Those burials had been disturbed in earlier industrial construction, and the Tribe saw an opportunity to properly rebury desecrated remains. The agreement provided $3.4 million to the tribe for costs that included acquiring land and reburying their ancestors. It called for field work by archeologists and tribal members to locate and remove additional remains and artifacts from four sections of the project site identified as archeological “hot-spots” before construction resumed in those areas.
However, it quickly became apparent that the site contained far more remains than the 25 or so already disturbed burials that the parties had estimated. On March 29, 2004, days after the agreement was signed, workers excavating for a drainage line outside the then-identified archeological areas discovered the first intact, previously undisturbed burial. Over the summer and fall, archeologists and tribal members discovered more and more intact burials. By December 2004, 355 complete skeletons had been located and removed.
Construction Ends
As the extent of the village site and burials became apparent, and as more and more ancestors were disturbed, Lower Elwha Klallam leaders, who at first wanted all burials removed so they would not be left underneath the graving dock, began urging the state to reconsider the project location altogether. In December, the tribe officially asked WSDOT to cancel plans for the graving yard at the Ediz Hook site to prevent still-undiscovered remains from being buried under the project.
The State agreed. On December 21, 2004, MacDonald and Locke announced that WSDOT was ending all work at Tse-whit-zen, and would begin searching for a new graving dock location.
More at: http://www.historylink.org/ess.....le_id=7344
candrewb @ 27
“Washington is now ranked as the third best managed state in the country, Not to argue, but where is that from? “
The study was funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts and is published here: http://results.gpponline.org/
dj@26,
Washington is now ranked as the third best managed state in the country, much to the consternation of those who so badly want to rant about corruption and inefficiency.
By whom? Show me the link or else you are just making this up.
oh dj…i would love to see where you got that little bit of [mis] info too. third best managed state in the union???? god, that is TOO funny….even for you.
And Bernie Ebbers got 25 year for pilfering millions; what happens to the boobs at the Monorail who pissed away millions (no personal graft, but taxpayers take it in the shorts)
According to goldy, they are great public servants!
DJ@26
Thanks for the link, looks like lots of interesting information. It partially addresses my point, but in skimming it I didn’t see any benchmarking info. I think some comparisons to other states, construction, maintenance costs per mile etc would be informative.
What’s the source for the 3rd best managed state ranking? I’d be interested to see the criteria used.
That would be great if it was only a PR problem.
pbj @ 31,
So, let me get this straight. The archaeologists didn’t find evidence when doing their test pits. The tribe didn’t know about the existance of the site. The tribe even agreed to go ahead with construction. But, then it turns out that the site has bones. No problem for awhile. But, then it turns out that the site is an enormous graveyard—one of the biggest ever found of its type. And it turns out to be culturally highly significant (mass graves due to diseases introduced by Europeans, artifacts that are recorded in the history of the tribe but hadn’t been seen before). And you are going to blame the State for that???
You idiot. Every construction project runs the risk of this type of thing happening, even if it only occasionally materializes as a real problem. You select the one project that gets hit very hard and try to generalize to the entire state?
I suppose you tell your out-of-state friends and relatives that Seattle gets dumped with three feet of snow in the winter just because it got 3 feet of snow in 1916, huh?
What a freaking moron!
dj; i thought you said the bill wasn’t about 520 and the Viaduct per se, now your buddy Roger says so; you are kindly mute. Maybe its hard to be both personalities at once?
@21,
As I’ve always said, many of you so-called supporters of the initiative process really only honor “the will of the people” when they agree with you.
As opposed to lefties who never honor the will of the people as evidenced by the trampling of I-601 to ram this tax increase down our throats. The intent from the start regarding the Grgoire Gas tax was to avoid having any public discussion, you know – that messy thing called Democracy.
Gregoire is a liar. She stated she wouldn’t raise taxes and then, in the smoke filled backrooms of Olympia she wheeled and dealed to force this thing down our throats. But the issue isn’t about the gax tax, the 520 bridge, the viaduct or even Gregoire being a liar. It is about arrogance of a runaway government that began it reign way back when Mike Lowery decided to overrule the will of the people and for the baseball stadium on us. Perhaps you were living here then Goldy to know even what I am talking about. But this gas tax increase is just the latest example of the arrogance of the leftist establishment in Olympia.
You don’t want Democracy in Washington because you think you know better than the individuals of this state what is best for them.
If you believe so much in this tax, then you would have wanted it put before the people. But democracy is the farthest thing from your mind.
christmasghost @ 34
“i would love to see where you got that little bit of [mis] info too. third best managed state in the union???? god, that is TOO funny….even for you. “
Yes, I know this is the kind of thing that makes you disgruntled wingnuts apoplectic—“IT JUST CAN’T BE!,” you cry, clenching your fists and foaming at the mouth.
Nevertheless, the state truly was ranked as the third-best managed state in the union: http://results.gpponline.org/
And it is TRUE that we do all that good management with a tax burden that is right at the median.
Sorry, Christmasghost, you’ll have to find another state to satisfy your anger problem.
Yeah Christmas, try Illinois. Your need for material to get angry about will be limitless.
righton @ 38
“i thought you said the bill wasn’t about 520 and the Viaduct per se, now your buddy Roger says so; you are kindly mute. Maybe its hard to be both personalities at once?”
Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see my cute and fuzzy friend say or imply that the gas tax bill was about 520 or AWV. I did see him discussing 520 and AWV as important KC priorities (post 14), but if that is the same post you were thinking of, he did not even mention the gas tax.
until I see a plan with a budget for the viaduct, all the other projects are just wishful thinking.
dj@37,
First of all they should have hired more than one archeologist. And they were warned by the tribe that their ancient village was “somehwere in the area”. Seems to me they could have at least done some test digs beforehand and gotten more than just one archeologist’s opinion. With $270 million riding on the line, getting a second opinion seems prudent.
Nevertheless, they went ahead and when the found out it was a burial site, they paid the tribe $3.4 million for a mitigation effort. The tribe reneged and ketp the $3.4 million. THAT, my dim witted leftist friend is what is outrageous!
The state is just letting the tribe keep the money. Now i know that to you rich monorail people who blow a $100 million and buy $300,000 toilets, give valuable real estate to billionaires at fire sale prices and construct choo choos for other billionare – to you that may not seem like a lot of money. Well it IS a lot of money.
I have to laugh….Our roads will crumble anyday now because politicians were remiss for the past 20 years. NOW they would like us to send them more money because they’ve finally got they’re act together? Come on….it’s the same old group in Olympia. How many audits have taken place at the WDOT with no follow up action. How much waste has been going on AND will continue? THAT’S my problem….it’s not the money stupid…it’s the fact that no one has any faith that politicians will spend my dollar in the same manner as I do. Carefully, by budgeting, making your dollar go further, and having somesort of a plan. Give me that and some REAL oversite and then I’ll vote no on I912……But by the looks of the Monorail project…..the people “incharge” aren’t about to do that…..
I suppose you tell your out-of-state friends and relatives that Seattle gets dumped with three feet of snow in the winter just because it got 3 feet of snow in 1916, huh?
No. What I tell them is that Seattle is filled with a bunch of pansies who abandon their mercedes in the street when 1/8 inch of snow falls on the ground.
Washington is now ranked as the third best managed state in the country, much to the consternation of those who so badly want to rant about corruption and inefficiency. (That is no reason to relax—we should try for number one).
First of all, I could find no rankings of all states in the category of management at the site you mention. They only show People, Money, Infrastructure and Information. Please assist.
Secondly, one wonders that if we are such a star at managing our money, then why are we having such a crisis now?
My 2 Cents @ 36
“Thanks for the link, looks like lots of interesting information. It partially addresses my point, but in skimming it I didn’t see any benchmarking info. I think some comparisons to other states, construction, maintenance costs per mile etc would be informative.”
You’re very welcome! Alas, I don’t, off-hand, have state by state comparisons (except for tax burden–we are 24 out of 50). That would be great information to get a look at.
The comparisons would be a bit tricky, however, because the conditions differ and the total size and complexity of the infrastructure differs. In places like Minnesota, the entire infrastructure goes through massive freeze-thaw cycles, get salt dumped on the road, has chains and studded tires (IIRC) pounding the pavement for big chunks of the year, and has snow plows beat them up regularly. Also, our state has a ferry system that is considered a part of the highways, long floating bridges, and a major metropolitan area with extreme geographic constraints.
But, even with these differences, I would, to, would like to see such a comparison.
There is one big inefficiency that is never mentioned. In Washington State, the cost of the construction materials is taxed. SO the hiddent agenda here is to increase the state coffer general fund by taxing all the construction material. I bet the price of the projects could be reduced in a big way if they granted a waiver on this. But they won’t because their true agenda is to increase the general revenue to fund their pet project. Just more budget manipulations to maintain pet project.
pbj @ 48
“First of all, I could find no rankings of all states in the category of management at the site you mention. They only show People, Money, Infrastructure and Information. Please assist.”
This is a good question. I was trying to hunt down the rank orders on that site, as well. I didn’t find ’em. But, if you examine the map, you will discover:
VA and UT have are the top 2 states with overall grades of A-. There are four states with the next highest overall grade of B+. Looking at the individual scores for money, people, infrastructure, and information (see the web site for what these really mean), Washington has the highest average (A-, B+, B, A-) followed by MN (A-, B+, B, B+), MI (B, B, B+, B+) and KY (B+, B, B+, B)
“Secondly, one wonders that if we are such a star at managing our money, then why are we having such a crisis now?”
We were having a transportation funding crisis, brought on by several things, but especially I695 and the failure of Prop 52. The crisis was abated by the recent tax hike. More telling is that the state only gets a B for infrastructure.
If the gas tax gets repealed, I suppose we will be down to a B- for money, C for people (LOL) and B- for infrastructure. That will certainly further the goals of those aiming for us to be more like Mississippi or West Virginia.
DJ
There are probably some segments of highway that could be compared to segments of other states.
Now I just have to figure out what I’m doing having a civilized discussion on a Blog started by a guy who’s claim to fame comes from slander.
pbj @ 47
“No. What I tell them is that Seattle is filled with a bunch of pansies who abandon their mercedes in the street when 1/8 inch of snow falls on the ground.”
Hey, that is EXACTLY what I say! :-)
Sadly, I also have to report that Washingtonians abandon their highway projects when one or two state highway projects runs into unanticipated problems. . . .
Pew thing on States
a) not sure how a map tell’s you we are #3??
b) click on the “infrastructure” tab, we do worse http://results.gpponline.org/Default.aspx?id=4
Thanks to the efforts of Jim Buck, a Wisconsin firm has been hired to get to the bottom of the Hood Canal Bridge debacle. Hopefully someone will be held accountable. $60 million is a lot of transportation dollars for dj to sweep under the rug!!
DJ—let’s see what these experts come up with. Usually where there is smoke…there is fire. I believe this is symptomatic of WSDOT problems….and justification for repealing the Gas Tax increase until we have a trustworthy, competent organization in place. DJ may think throwing more $$ at an organization with huge problems is ok. DJ is also the prime candidate for the “OSTRICH CLUB” …dj is will to put his head in a hole…ignore the outside independent accountability and piss more valuable dollars away.
dj is the Master of Deflection in addition to be the Master Bater. An obvious pro at both.
dj; read the title of this posting; its all about the 912 initiative, which i think is the gas tax..
pbj @ 50,
“There is one big inefficiency that is never mentioned. In Washington State, the cost of the construction materials is taxed. SO the hiddent agenda here is to increase the state coffer general fund by taxing all the construction material. I bet the price of the projects could be reduced in a big way if they granted a waiver on this. “
I agree with you here, pbj. It is idiotic to charge tax for state business. Indeed, construction projects would appear to be about 9% lower. (Costs can be more easily compared to other states with a more sensible sales and use tax policy).
“But they won’t because their true agenda is to increase the general revenue to fund their pet project. Just more budget manipulations to maintain pet project. “
Huh??? The policy, inane though it may be, does not affect revenues (charging the state to pay the state).
Cynical @ 55
“let’s see what these experts come up with. Usually where there is smoke…there is fire.”
Fine. I have not argued against looking into this particular construction project’s problems.
What I am arguing against is morons who claim the state transportation spending is in shambles because of one unanticipated problem. Overall, it seems WSDOT had recently had an excellent on-time and on-or-under-budget record.
“outside independent accountability”
Oh god, not that bullshit again.
There is no such thing as an “outside independent” accountability program, unless you are expecting pro bono work. One you pay an “outside independent” group it is no longer independent and not really outside.
righton @ 54
“a) not sure how a map tell’s you we are #3??
1. go to http://results.gpponline.org/
2. Click on Washington
3. Record the scores for Money, Infrastructure, People, Information.
4. Do the same for MN, MI, and KY (all states with B+ overall)
5. Compare the scores. Note that the 4 WA scores average to the highest score of the 4 B+ states. (The B+ is, in some sense, a “rounded” score. WA is ranked highest within the B+s)
6. Note that there are two states with A- scores.
Therefore, Washington is ranked third. QED
“b) click on the “infrastructure” tab, we do worse”
Yes. Washington does do worse than some states for infrastructure. Perhaps this is, in part, because our transportatin infrastructure has been underfunded. . . .
Comment on 47
Seattle drivers are NOT pansies. They’re a lot of things — aggressive, inattentive, insane — but limp-wristed they are not. They will tailgate you, cut you off, bully you, even ram you without batting an eye. Above all, they do not believe in leaving a safe following distance in front of them under any circumstances whatsoever. Tailgating is considered a mark of manhood, and not tailgating is cowardice.
There are many reasons why Seattle drivers are hopeless when it snows, some of which I have detailed below:
1. It snows so seldom here that it’s not cost-effective for local governments to invest in snow removal or sanding equipment, so they don’t.
2. For the same reason as #1 above, relatively few drivers invest in studded tires or chains, or even know how to put on chains.
3. Seattle’s climate is such that chains are useless anyway, because when we do get snow, it quickly turns into black ice, on which chains are worse than worthless.
4. The inexperience of most Seattle drivers with driving in snow is aggravated by Seattle’s hills.
5. Seattle drivers are temperamentally incapable of adjusting to road surface conditions or gravity where applicable.
6. Seattle drivers are unwilling to increase following distances by even 6 inches to compensate for black ice, snow, or wet road surfaces.
7. Seattle drivers believe that exercising their immutable right to stubbornly do things their own way is more important than not hitting a dozen other vehicles on their way downhill in an uncontrolled slide with no brakes.
Naw, its poorly managed. More money is your mantra for schools.
righton @ 61
“Naw, its poorly managed.
Bwwwahhhhhh, haaaaa, haaaaaa. “I can’t prove it, the evidence suggests otherwise, but I FEEL IT IN MY BONES!”, is the only thing you have to say? That kind of a response makes you a joke!
BTW: Seriously, I DO applaud you for examining the web site.
“More money is your mantra for schools.”
WTF???????
dj@53,
Sadly, I also have to report that Washingtonians abandon their highway projects when one or two state highway projects runs into unanticipated problems. . . .
What projects have been abandoned? Project never started aren’t abandoned projects.
What I tell outsiders the about highway projects is that even if they are wreckless, they spend with abandon.
reply@60,
Seattle drivers are NOT pansies.
They are pansies. They overreact and abandon their vehicles at the first sign of trouble. They get one snow day a year and declare an emergency. Hell, the local media drives around in a suburban calling it the “mobile newsroom” and videotapes the “horror”.
The standard libbie solution is never to study, wonder if doing less, or cheaper might be better. Is always, spend more, that’s the cure.
I’m just surprised that the boomer largely in the Dem party, kids of the 60’s are so taken by spending, even on big heavy transportation. First it was schools, or earlier i guess Head start, lately now its school and roads. Spend on infrastructure.
Wierd since you all don’t have as much union support today, why the fascination w/ taxing to fix roads and bridges.
ps, one reason 405 may be easier than even DOT thought (and pre inflated the budget) is that they’ve been working on that road since like 1985. Ought to be a lot easier to eliminate unknowns on a road they’ve been messing with (see the s curves) since way back. Wonder how much a Viaduct/tunnel will cost when you factor in a) never done it, b) artsy fartsy types wanna make it pretty, c) indian graves?, and yeah, gotta mention the Big Dig as comparable disaster/overrun.
pbj; you forgot about slowdowns when the sun is shining…
dj@58,
What I am arguing against is morons who claim the state transportation spending is in shambles because of one unanticipated problem. Overall, it seems WSDOT had recently had an excellent on-time and on-or-under-budget record.
What you are arguing is a red herring. WSDOT has done some good jobs and some bad jobs (examples of which I cited). This distraction is irrelevent in this case because the tax plan was passed by trampling I-601 and using a fake emergency clause to ram it down people’s throats.
#1 – We should not tax construction materials for state construction projects.
#2 – This ‘plan’ doesn’t fund all of the 520 or all of the viaduct. What will happen with the money if Seattle fails to come up with their share is that the state will take it down the rat hole for some liberal pet project like $300,00 toilets.
They need to go back to the drawing board and come up with a much smaller plan to build public trust. Pleace it before the voters and then come back for more once they have shown they can manage the money properly.
pbj @ 67
“This distraction is irrelevent in this case because the tax plan was passed by trampling I-601 and using a fake emergency clause to ram it down people’s throats.”
Nope. It is a real emergency, all right. We defunded transportation in a HUGE way in 1999, inflation has eaten up part of the revenue stream, and the legislature has not been able to restore those revenue streams (they failed with Prop 52 and recaptured a bit with the nickle package). That is five year of underfunding. If we don’t fund our transportation system now, it will grow exponentially more expensive (not to mention the will be accidents and deaths on the most dangerous roadways). Have you ever tried being unemployeed for 5 years? Think about it.
#1 – We should not tax construction materials for state construction projects.
I agree. It is idiotic. On the other hand, it has nothing to do with transportation or the gas tax. That is state law and applies to all parts of the state. (Of course, it has no real effect on total tax burden since the state takes the states money and puts it back in the pot).
#2 – This ‘plan’ doesn’t fund all of the 520 or all of the viaduct. What will happen with the money if Seattle fails to come up with their share is that the state will take it down the rat hole for some liberal pet project like $300,00 toilets.”
It is completely irrelevant. The legislation was not written with fully funding 520 or AWV in mind. If funding cannot be found for the projects, then the money will go to the next projects in priority order. In the unlikely event that we fully fund the hundreds of projects and still have money left over, it will forestall the next tax increase (Remember, the gas tax is an excise tax, not a sales tax. Therefore, it must be periodically raised to keep up with inflation).
“They need to go back to the drawing board and come up with a much smaller plan to build public trust.”
But, then we will still have a transportation funding crisis. The fact that it is treated by both dems and GOP as a funding emergency should clue you in that this is pretty critical need.
BTW: Mr. Cynical freely admitted that there are dangerous sections of highway that need to be improved—he pointed one out. Do you know of any? If so, did you find them on the projects list?
“Pleace it before the voters and then come back for more once they have shown they can manage the money properly.”
The State has already demonstrated that they can manage money. Again, you ignore facts, the WSDOT record, the big picture, the middling state tax burden, and the excellent management record the state has. You WANT the State to suck; unfortunately it does not cooperate with you.
67) #2 Tolls pbj, I guarantee they are going to use tolls.
Tolls — what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. I’ve been in WA 11 years now and never driven the Viaduct or 520 — I say toll ’em, just like the Narrows Bridge that I must drive over! See how they like it.
APB on PBJ!!
If anyone sees PBJ will you please pass along this message. Thanks.
PBJ
Are you going to answer my challenge on the “Dems to introduce Resolution of Inquiry into Plame’s outing” thread? Posts 60-64
Thanks,
GBS
dj; “emergency”??? From the party of “it depends on the meaning of the word ‘is’ “?
I thought emergency was like a earthquake, an economic calamity, tree down in the road, WTO riots. Gee if its an emergency, lets shut down some services, run special sessions, fire some workers, cancel some vacations..
Letter writer Larry Palmer of Issaquah, in today’s Seattle Times letters column, sums up Seattle’s transportation quandary pretty well:
“Well, we in Seattle certainly do not have to worry about any terrorists attacking our mass-transit system. We have so much arguing and fighting going on here all of the time we don’t need the terrorists to destroy it. We can do that all by ourselves.
“Just like the terrorists work in small cells, we did one better. We work in groups to destroy everything anyone tries to do to get a mass-transit system going. Just like the terrorists, all they have is hate.
“I should mention that one little item was overlooked about London. They have a mass-transit system and the people use it.
“That is something we never have to worry about.”
Yep, Larry, you’ve nailed it — who needs terrorists to wreck your transportation system when you’ve got home-grown government-haters who are more than happy to do it?
righton @ 72
“I thought emergency was like a earthquake, an economic calamity, tree down in the road, WTO riots. Gee if its an emergency, lets shut down some services, run special sessions, fire some workers, cancel some vacations..
Sure. . . maybe we could shut down the state prision system? Maybe we can pull state subsidies for local police and fire protection? How about shutting down the ferry system completely?
What the fuck. Anything other than doing it right—restoring the revenue lost to I 695 and inflation!
We have one of the best managed state, middling tax load, a good track record on transportation projects, and a responsibility to maintain our infrastructure. Only idiots would start shutting down programs—leading to new emergencies.
righton @ 74
From the party of “it depends on the meaning of the word ‘is’ “?
Oh? Has that question become symbolic of the entire Democratic party, now?
Does that make the GOP the party of “Go fuck your self?”
A front-page story in today’s Seattle Times reports on the results of a Johns Hopkins study of U.S. health care costs:
1. Americans pay more for health care than anyone else in the world — $5,267 per person, compared to $3,446 in Switzerland, the second most expensive country. (Per annum figures, as of 2002)
2. “Contrary to popular belief and political rhetoric, malpractice suits have little impact on U.S. costs.” According to the study, malpractice costs accunt for “far less than 1 percent” and defensive medicine makes up “no more than 9 percent.”
3. Also, “despite a widespread belief that Americans make frequent use of some of the world’s best medical care, they see doctors less often and spend 20 percent fewer days in the hospital than people in other countries.
4. The real reason for high U.S. health care costs is “the prices of care.” Americans pay “twice as much” for prescription drugs and U.S. doctors more than twice as much as physicians in other countries, the study found.
The complete article starts on page A1 of the Seattle Times for Thursday, July 14, 2005.
Reply to 75
DJ, you should know by now these trolls don’t believe in government or social responsibility — the only thing they care about is their own bank account. Needless to say, the fools don’t realize that society heavily subsidizes their financial success and no property or individual rights could exist without government beyond what they could defend with a club.
pbj @ 63
“What projects have been abandoned? Project never started aren’t abandoned projects.”
That’s your opinion. There is a long planning phase for every project, and if it is cut short by being defunded, it is abandoned.
How can you justify de-funding safety improvements to roadways with known safety problems?
“What I tell outsiders the about highway projects is that even if they are wreckless, they spend with abandon.”
Of coures, the facts soundly contradict your statement. I don’t call posters liars on this blog, so I will attribute past statements like this to your ignorance.
Reply to 67
pbj, you are the unrivaled champion on HorsesAss for disingenuousness. Never mind that WSDOT successfully completes “small projects” every day; that’s beside the point. Alaska Way Viaduct can’t be done as a “small project” nor can the 520 bridge. The bottom line is that if we do things your way, these projects will never be built, and a day will come when these facilities have to be shut down as unsafe and then Seattle will lose 40% of its arterial capacity. What happens then is Seattle will experience hopeless gridlock, nothing will move in this city, and a third of the state’s economy will collapse. That’s what you really want, isn’t it? You’re a vindictive prick who hates Seattle and wants to destroy it because Seattle votes Democratic. That’s what it’s all about with you, isn’t it?
I don’t doubt that pbj would drop a nuclear bomb on Seattle if he could get one. Pbj is easy to understand — he hates Seattle because Seattle votes Democratic.
Words matter: why is a budget issue an “emergency”. Obvious just a dodge around citizen initiatives.
Emergency is a fire, a flood, house burned down, dog ate my homework…not the way its perverted here.
What agency left the hatches open and sunk the old I90 Bridge? Aaarghhh, that was a good one..
Roger Rabbit@5
I believe I supported King County keeping their gas tax…and becoming another state!
wayne@6
Dont get out much do you? the buisiness owner could have been driving a delivery truck all day, or a commercial carpet cleaner. Damn, it doesnt mean getting on a moped and going to a 9 to 5 job, it is a SMALL BUISINESS, it could involve being on the road all day!
Great site for seeing smart analysis of transit messups.. http://www.rppi.org/surfacetra.....index.html
First of all they should have hired more than one archeologist. And they were warned by the tribe that their ancient village was “somehwere in the area”. Seems to me they could have at least done some test digs beforehand and gotten more than just one archeologist’s opinion. With $270 million riding on the line, getting a second opinion seems prudent.
One the one hand, DOT gets criticized by anti-tax types for spending too much money on “studies.” On the other hand, you’re criticizing DOT for not spending enough money on “studies.” I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that had DOT spent the extra money you say they should’ve spent that you would be the first in line to criticize them for wasting money that could’ve been spent on roads.
You can’t have it both ways.
What agency left the hatches open and sunk the old I90 Bridge? Aaarghhh, that was a good one..
Probably workers for a private contractor hired by DOT to rebuild the bridge.
Bax; so if you have a crummy flight, or botched meal or bad car, you blame the workers or the company. It was a DOT job, and gee, i forgot the other Hood canal bridge that also sunk, gotta love the freeway exits around here (i can’t think of more than a couple that are normal cloverleafs), switching car pool lanes, 520 with 2 person carpool that switches to 3, bus tunnel that has buried and unusable rail,
This is easy and fun, picking on WSDOT and the other boobs in other transit agencies. Meanwhile I can’t drive home cuz of bad traffic, not at all likely to improve with anything being done today.
Guess I could take the 2 hr train to Rainier avenue…what in about 5 yrs?
Forgot about i-90; enviro folks had them store the wastewater inside the pontoons; geniuses at WSDOT let em do it.. ” and the concurrent struggle to pump accumulating water out of the bridge pontoons, where it had to be stored while awaiting envrionmentally-required transport away from the lake.”
righton @ 89
“Forgot about i-90; enviro folks had them store the wastewater inside the pontoons;. . . “
Well, there’s a good reason to avoid upgrading the most dangerous parts of our roadway. . .
Dolt!
righton @ 88
“This is easy and fun, picking on WSDOT and the other boobs in other transit agencies.
Sure. . . but doen’t it make you feel foolish when you read the quarterly report and WSDOT actually does quite well in meeting or exceeding the benchmarks?
I know it sucks for you truds that the State acutally runs quite well, but the rest of us appreciate it.
Sure. . . but doen’t it make you feel foolish when you read the quarterly report and WSDOT actually does quite well in meeting or exceeding the benchmarks?
Thats good to know that the state is run so well. I bet you the state wont even miss the loss tax revenue form I-912. Thanks dj for putting things into proper perspective.
dj@41………the pew institute? oh good grief…..that is what you are basing your comments on washington”s “fabulous-ness”?
why don’t we just ask gregoire what she thinks……sheesh.
dj; only the gullible would believe a self written evaluation form a state agency, or for that matter for any private company. Bet you believed Bernie Ebbers when he told you they were doing great.
christmasghost @ 93
‘the pew institute? that is what you are basing your comments on washington”s “fabulous-ness”?’
Oh, please, spare us your feigned knowledge of this organization. You don’t even know the fucking name of it, and you think you can criticize it? What a fucking bullshitter!
Oh. . . and after you learn the correct name, you had better find out who actually did the research. Pew _ _ only provides the research grants for the project. Idiot!
RUFUS @ 92
“Thats good to know that the state is run so well. I bet you the state wont even miss the loss tax revenue form I-912.”
WTF??? That makes no sense at all. Why would the state not notice a big chunck of its transportation infrastructure budget go away, simply because the state is well run?
Hey RUFUS, are there any dangerous sections of highway out where you live? Maybe you should check http://www.washingtondefense.o.....jects.html and see if they are on the list.
If you vote against the gas tax, won’t you feel horrible if one of your friends or relatives perishes on that roadway?
righton @ 94
“only the gullible would believe a self written evaluation form a state agency, or for that matter for any private company.”
Or for that matter a private company being paid to audit a state agency. Or for that matter a state agency being paid to audit a private company being paid to audit a state agency. Or for that matter. . . .
Arggh, the insanity of it. Yeah, Joel Horn said he did well too..
Heck GOLDY says Joel Horn did well!
To me, I am a firm supporter of I-912 more for the fact that when it passes, it will send a clear message to our “Governor” as well as the powers that be in Olympia that you do not go against the will of the people; period. Calling this gas tax an “emergency” when it is not is bullshit. Getting around good ole’ voter approved I-601 is unacceptable. This initiative will send them a message that those who do not heed the will of the people will be dealt with in the end, one way or another. I’ll see what whining I see on this tree huggin’ blog when it passes. Probably the usual hypocrisy, arrogance, naivety, and usual selfish “we-think-we-are-the-center-of-the-fucking-universe” majority in King County. Power to the voters! Thanks.
Goldy,
I hope the supporters of this gas tax increase keep posting the list of projects in as many places as possible. This listing makes it clear that King County is the disproportionate beneficiary — $4 billion out of $7 billion in projects. Almost 60% of project funds, when King County pays less than 30% of the gasoline taxes in this state.
Every single county outside of King County will have far less in road project funds than they will be paying in gasoline taxes. With the small exception of Kittitas County getting a $387.7 million improvement on I-90 to reduce the number of times the road is closed due to avalanche threats (a lot of expense for a small reduction in inconvenience).
It is true that King County has paid nearly one billion dollars more in gasoline taxes over the last 10 years, than there have been gas tax monies spent in King County.
Now the imbalance is about to be repaid in spades. There will now be TWO BILLION DOLLARS MORE spent in King County, than in gasoline tax hike revenues generated from King County.
Publicizing this list will ensure that I-912 passes by extremely hhealthy margins in the other 38 counties, where voters will easily see that they are being ripped off to subsidize King County.
Most King County voters won’t like the gas tax hike either. The $4 billion earmarked for King County won’t complete a single project — or even fund 50% for a single project. And most King XCounty voters aren’t going to like the ideas of flushing billions of tax dollars down the sewer of the gold-plated Alaskan Way “Big Dig” tunnel, even if most of these tax dollars are coming from other counties.
Keep up the good work, Goldy.
To me, I am a firm supporter of I-912 more for the fact that when it passes, it will send a clear message to our “Governor” as well as the powers that be in Olympia that you do not go against the will of the people
So the will of the people is not to build any new road projects?
Getting around good ole’ voter approved I-601 is unacceptable.
First off, Goldy had already posted information detailing the fact that 601 was passed by a very slim margin in a very low turnout year.
Secondly, 601 had already been amended right and left, and it started with the GOP and R-49. Do your research.
Richard @101,
So then Richard, if I were to sponsor an initiative mandating that state gas tax revenues raised within a county be spent within that county, would you support it? I betcha most of Eastern WA would.
Hell, for that matter, let’s include the state property tax… my daughter could certainly use the extra money spent in her schools.
(And by the way, I haven’t done the work to confirm your refute your numbers, but I can say that it is rather misleading to be talking about this increase in isolation. We need to be talking about the 5 cent package, and the rest of the tax.)
The $4 billion earmarked for King County won’t complete a single project – or even fund 50% for a single project.
Richard, you were highly critical of Keep Washington Rolling for putting a bunch of government agencies on their website who clearly couldn’t be supporters, and rightfully so. In effect, you said if they were lying about that, why should we trust them on anything else?
I’ll ask you the same question: since you’re lying about no projects being completed in King County, why should we listen to you on anything else?
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdo.....County.pdf
Start at page 17 and go to page 22. These are the projects in King County funded by the gas tax increase. By my count there’s at least 55 road construction projects that are fully funded and will be completed using the 9.5 cent gas tax increase.
Among them:
– new lanes on 167 SB from 405 to SW 41st St (the IKEA exit)
– new lane SB on 405 from 167 to the West Valley Highway in Tukwila
– new lane NB on 405 from 167 to 169; new interchange at 405 and Talbot Rd.
– redesign of the 405/520 interchange at NE 8th to reduce weaving
– new interchange at 405 and NE 10th in downtown Bellevue
– new lane NB on 405 from 124th to 160th
– new interchange on 405 at NE 132nd
– new lane NB on 405 from NE 195th to SR 527
– new lanes on SR 167 from NE 15th in Auburn into Pierce County
– new lane on SR 518 from the airport to I-5
– new interchange at I-5 and SR 18 in Federal Way
– and on and on and on
If you’re going to be critical of Keep Washington Rolling, that’s fine. But why aren’t you holding yourself to the same standard?
It’s also worth noting that the link to the project list I’ve posted above does not include the roughly $1 billion in gas tax money that would be distributed directly to cities and counties to pay for city and county road projects. None of these city and county projects are included in that list.
Bax @ 104
Keep Washington Rolling LIED — they knew those government agencies weren’t (and couldn’t be) members of their organization, much less taken any position on I-912. Also, nearly 2/3 of the organizations and business initially listed by KWR as “members” weren’t really members, and had to be removed.
At worst, I was misinformed. I took the listing on the KWR website (which Permanent Defense copied verbatim from KWR) at face value. It shows $4 billion in money for King County, and no completed projects — unlike the other counties, which have numerous projects listed.
Thanks for the link. It looks like $4,058.8 billion is earmarked for King County. While there are somewhere around 55 fully funded projects, it looks like over 3/4 of this money is allocated to projects that are only partially funded — such as the Alaskan Way viaduct, 520 bridge, and I-405. I haven’t missed the mark by that much.
Bax @ 105
I assume this extra $1 billion will be distributed to cities and counties roughly in proportion to population. If this is not the case, please post the link on how this $1 billion or so is going to be distributed.
$4,058.8 billion of the $7,139.4 billion in project money is going to King County. Only 28.65% of the state’s population lives in King County, according to the July 1, 2004 U.S. Census estimates. King County’s pro-rata share of this $7,139.4 billion would be $2,045.2 billion.
So over $2 billion in gas tax money is being transferred from the other 38 counties to pay for projects in King County. This certainly won’t make the gas tax increase very popular in any of the other 38 counties.
The fact that another $1 billion or so may be going directly to cities and counties doesn’t change this imbalance one iota. Presumably, King County will get something approaching a pro-rata share of this extra $1 billion.
But even if no one in King County got a penny of this extra $1 billion, this would be a compensating transfer of only $286.5 million from King County to the other 38 counties — far less than the transfer of over $2 billion to King County from the other 38 counties in specific project money.
It looks like $4,058.8 billion is earmarked for King County. While there are somewhere around 55 fully funded projects, it looks like over 3/4 of this money is allocated to projects that are only partially funded – such as the Alaskan Way viaduct, 520 bridge, and I-405. I haven’t missed the mark by that much.
Yes, you have. A replacement of the Alaska Way Viaduct is fully funded. A tunnel is not. Look at the projects I posted above on 405. They’re all fully funded. Additional general purpose lanes from 169 to I-90 aren’t — but that’s only a portion of what’s going to be done on 405. The only major project that clearly doesn’t have full funding to complete anything is 520.
$4,058.8 billion of the $7,139.4 billion in project money is going to King County. Only 28.65% of the state’s population lives in King County, according to the July 1, 2004 U.S. Census estimates. King County’s pro-rata share of this $7,139.4 billion would be $2,045.2 billion.
Why do you assume that traffic congestion and road construction need occurs at a ratio equal to the percentage of population? It clearly doesn’t. Go stand on the border of King and Snohomish County on I-5 or 405 some morning. You’ll see tons and tons and tons of people streaming into King County, causing congestion in King County. The same thing happens at the King/Pierce border. Trucks pour into King County from Eastern WA to get their cargo to port. The reason money is coming into King County is because there is a disproportionate need for congestion relief in King County.
More importantly, we’re a state. It’s time to look at where the needs are AS A STATE, and stop playing these stupid games about this county getting more money than that. The highest priority needs are clearly in King County, so it’s time to take care of them.
So over $2 billion in gas tax money is being transferred from the other 38 counties to pay for projects in King County. This certainly won’t make the gas tax increase very popular in any of the other 38 counties.
Well, okay. But over the past few decades we have transferred billions of dollars out of King County to build projects in rural areas in this state. I personally don’t have a problem with that, because I’ve traveled on most of them and the need was there. But I believe that the expectation was that since the urban areas would help the rural with their needs, the reverse would also happen when the time came.
If that doesn’t occur, that’s fine. But I think what is clearly going to occur at that point will be the gradual closing of the tap for funding of rural areas. Rural areas can’t keep demanding handouts if they aren’t willing to help their beneficiaries when it’s necessary. I hope that doesn’t happen, but I think that it’s pretty clear that it will.